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Updated on Monday, November 24 at 08:33 AM EST
The most recently received Mail is at the top.


Winter Wren,©Douglas Pratt

24 Nov Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Laurent Raty ]
24 Nov Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll ["Vaughan, Robert" ]
23 Nov Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]
22 Nov Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]
21 Nov Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Peter Pyle ]
21 Nov Re: Skylark names ["Robert O'Brien" ]
21 Nov Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Lee G R Evans ]
21 Nov Skylark names [DPratt14 ]
20 Nov Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Peter Pyle ]
20 Nov FW:grlazaro@yahoo.es f [grlazaro ]
19 Nov Re: Another Goldeneye [Peter Pyle ]
19 Nov Re: Another Goldeneye [Tony leukering ]
19 Nov Another Goldeneye [Brad Singer ]
19 Nov Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [David Sibley ]
19 Nov Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [Peter Pyle ]
19 Nov Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [Noah Arthur ]
19 Nov Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [Tony Leukering ]
19 Nov Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [David Irons ]
19 Nov Re: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose [Ian McLaren ]
18 Nov Re: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose [Joseph Morlan ]
17 Nov Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [David Irons ]
16 Nov Re: immature hawk [Reid Martin ]
16 Nov Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
16 Nov Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [Brian Sullivan ]
16 Nov Re: immature hawk [Brian Sullivan ]
16 Nov Re: immature hawk [Bill Pranty ]
17 Nov Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [David Irons ]
16 Nov Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [Bob & Carol Yutzy ]
16 Nov New link to the Carpodacus Finch [Mary Beth Stowe ]
16 Nov Re: Falcated Duck [Tony Leukering ]
16 Nov Carpodacus Finch in South Texas [Mary Beth Stowe ]
16 Nov Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose [Ian McLaren ]
16 Nov Gallery of photos of the Oregon Tundra Bean-Goose [David Irons ]
16 Nov immature hawk [Hugh McGuinness ]
16 Nov Re: Falcated Duck [BRUCE DEUEL ]
16 Nov Re: Falcated Duck [David Irons ]
16 Nov Falcated Duck [BRUCE DEUEL ]
8 Nov Forensic Image Analysis Techniques ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]
3 Nov Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside... [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
3 Nov Tern hybrids [Christopher Hill ]
3 Nov Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside... [Tristan McKee ]
3 Nov Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside... [Mark B Bartosik ]
2 Nov Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside... [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
2 Nov Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside... [Tristan McKee ]
2 Nov Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified? [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
2 Nov Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside... [Mark B Bartosik ]
2 Nov Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified? [Dan Irizarry ]
2 Nov Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified? [julian hough ]
2 Nov Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside... [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
2 Nov Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside... [Mark B Bartosik ]
2 Nov Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified? [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
2 Nov Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified? [Mark B Bartosik ]
31 Oct Re: Timing of molt in Arctic (and Pacific) Loon [Peter Pyle ]
31 Oct Timing of molt in Arctic (and Pacific) Loon [Paul Hurtado ]
31 Oct Re: possible hybrid teal [Tony leukering ]
30 Oct Re: possible hybrid teal [David Bell ]
30 Oct Re: possible hybrid teal [David Irons ]
30 Oct Re: possible hybrid teal ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
30 Oct Re: possible hybrid teal [Lee G R Evans ]
30 Oct Re: possible hybrid teal [Tony leukering ]
30 Oct Re: possible hybrid teal [David Irons ]
30 Oct possible hybrid teal [David Bell ]
25 Oct Eurasian vs. African Collared-Dove in the ABA Area [Ted Floyd ]
14 Oct Re: Ventura Warbler [Marcelo Brongo ]
14 Oct Ventura Warbler [Tristan McKee ]
14 Oct Re: Fwd: Geothlypis hybridization and variation ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
14 Oct Re: Fwd: Geothlypis hybridization and variation [David Sibley ]
14 Oct Fwd: Geothlypis hybridization and variation [Marcelo Brongo ]
14 Oct Easier access to Geothlypis photos [Tristan McKee ]
13 Oct Geothlypis hybridization and variation [Tristan McKee ]
12 Oct SY Iceland Gull(?) spent over 2 months in Texas [Mark B Bartosik ]
11 Oct Neal G. Smith - Obituary [Jean Iron ]
9 Oct Re: Scarlet/Summer Tanager on Island of Barra - NW Scotland [Allen Chartier ]
9 Oct Re: Scarlet/Summer Tanager on Island of Barra - NW Scotland [Tony Leukering ]
9 Oct Scarlet/Summer Tanager on Island of Barra - NW Scotland [Lee G R Evans ]
7 Oct Opinions sought on vagrant TANAGER in NW Scotland (UK) [Lee G R Evans ]

Subject: Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: Laurent Raty <l.raty AT SKYNET.BE>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:51:49 +0100
"Sky Lark" was one of a set of suggestions made in 1988 
(http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1474-919X.1988.tb07362.x ) by a 
BOURC-appointed subcommittee in a first attempt to "internationalize" 
the English names of WP birds.
BOU (1992) followed, and listed the species as "Sky Lark" (international 
English name) / "Skylark" ("older" English name); BOU (2006: 
http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1474-919X.2006.00603.x ) still repeated this.
BOU (2013: http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/ibi.12069 ), however, switched to 
IOC for international names, halting the use of the 1988 "British 
international English names", and listed Alauda arvensis as "Skylark" 
(BOU English name) / "Eurasian Skylark" (IOU international English name).

Thus the international name used by the BOU is now the name that was 
used by the AOU, before the AOU followed a change that had been 
triggered by the BOU...


On 11/21/2014 09:56 PM, Peter Pyle wrote:
 > Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and
 > identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
 > http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html

If you found it interesting, you may want to check this, too:
http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=3010828&postcount=19
(Albeit there is now some suggestion that things may be still more 
complex than this...)

Cheers,
Laurent -


On 11/24/2014 11:20 AM, Vaughan, Robert wrote:
> I find the use of Sky Lark amusing and the current BOU list does have it as 
Skylark (and Woodlark before we go there). Could the US be lagging behind? 

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle 

> Sent: 21 November 2014 20:57
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
>
> Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.
>
> The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which is much 
darker than European subspecies. 

>
> Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here 
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/hrbp-pages/06-pter-tima/skla-hrbp.htm 

> including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the 
Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of nominate 
arvensis and japonica: 

> http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/pdfs/06-PTER-TIMA/SKLA.pdf
>
> Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and 
identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites: 

> http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html
> 
http://www.birdskorea.org/Birds/Identification/ID_Notes/BK-ID-Lark-Taxonomy.shtml 

> https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wb/v14n03/p0113-p0126.pdf
>
> Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:
>
> "p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN SKYLARK to 
SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)." 

>
> Cheerio,
>
> Peter

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: "Vaughan, Robert" <robert.vaughan AT KCL.AC.UK>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 10:20:14 +0000
I find the use of Sky Lark amusing and the current BOU list does have it as 
Skylark (and Woodlark before we go there). Could the US be lagging behind? 



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle 

Sent: 21 November 2014 20:57
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll

Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.

The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which is much 
darker than European subspecies. 


Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here 
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/hrbp-pages/06-pter-tima/skla-hrbp.htm 

including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the Southeastern 
Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of nominate arvensis and 
japonica: 

http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/pdfs/06-PTER-TIMA/SKLA.pdf

Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and 
identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites: 

http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html

http://www.birdskorea.org/Birds/Identification/ID_Notes/BK-ID-Lark-Taxonomy.shtml 

https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wb/v14n03/p0113-p0126.pdf

Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:

"p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN SKYLARK to 
SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)." 


Cheerio,

Peter

At 02:11 AM 11/21/2014, Lee G R Evans wrote:
>Peter
>
>Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
>
>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374
>
>In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK 
>has a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively 
>long tail and  generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, 
>the most definitive  field characters are in flight, ES having a broad 
>white trailing edge to the  secondaries and inner primaries and 
>Oriental a rather diffuse sandy-buff  trailing edge (although be wary 
>of juvenile ES early in the autumn).
>
>Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill 
>shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed 
>tip), a much  more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores), 
>narrower breast
>  streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring 
>eye-stripe  and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the 
>ground colour rather  than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail 
>coverts of ES). The ear-coverts  have warmer rufous tinges to them and 
>often, a weak rufescent outer web gives a  distinct impression of a 
>rufous wing-panel in flight. The relatively shorter  tail and wings 
>often give an impression of Woodlark in flight.
>
>In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is 
>on call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an 
>equally
>  loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
>
>SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
>
>As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist  of 8 
>clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae from  
>central & southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella 
>across  much of central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran 
>and dulcivox  from the Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian 
>pekinensis, kibarti &  intermedia from further east. A complication 
>comes with the little-studied  JAPANESE SKYLARK (japonica), which forms 
>a bridging gap between the two and does  have some differences in 
>vocalisations but is currently retained in this  grouping.
>
>ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right,  
>breeding across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to 
>Kazakhstan and Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
>
>Best wishes
>
>You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding
>
>Make  your records go much further and contribute towards the 
>protection, knowledge  and further education of our native wildlife - 
>join up to BIRDTRACK today - you  know it makes sense - 
>http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/main/data-home.jsp
>
>
>
>Lee G  R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour  
>Leader General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
>(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/)
>British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information - 
>http://ultimateguidingbirdwise.blogspot.co.uk/
>Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements - 
>_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
>Western  Palearctic Bird News -
>http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
>Items  For Sale or Exchange -
>http://leesmemorabiliaandcollectables.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Local  Websites
>Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Buckinghamshire  Birding - 
>http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Birds  of Tring Reservoirs - 
>http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
>Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 23:10:40 +0000
Hi,

Peter has explained that the single low-quality (heavily compressed) JPEG
was all that the biologists on Kure Atoll could send out given their limited
communication resources.  I think it is sensible to hold judgment on this
bird until more shots become available and I look forward to seeing more
images in due course.  

On a very related point, I have been working on a method of forensic
analysis for images with contrasting light and shade such as this.  The
solution is High Dynamic Range (HDR) Imagery.  If RAW format images become
available for this Skylark it will be possible to create HDR images from
RAW, which will hopefully allow for a clearer analysis of plumage tone.
More here...

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/forensics-hdr-imaging-fro
m-raw.html 

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland



-----Original Message-----
From: Mike O'Keeffe [mailto:okeeffeml AT eircom.net] 
Sent: 22 November 2014 00:07
To: 'Peter Pyle'; 'BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU'
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll

Hi Peter,

Is the consensus you have been receiving based on the single available shot
or on other details provided by the observer(s)?

Could the apparent darkness of the bird in the single available shot be
attributable to lighting?  

The Exif data for the only available image says it was taken at 17:58:43 on
11.11.2014 which seems to be closely approaching sunset on Kure Atoll.  The
lighting in the shot looks about right for that - long shadows cast by the
bird onto itself and long shadows also cast by the plant to the left of it.


I'd be nervous about assigning a bird to race based on one shot, let alone a
shot with this kind of composition and lighting.  That said a long-distance
migrant would seem like the more likely scenario.

It would be great to get hold of the original Canon 7D image.  What we have
available is a poorly compressed JPEG - hardly the original from the camera.
Really great if a RAW file is available for the image but the original JPEG
would be a good start.  

Lastly, surely there must be other shots taken of this bird.  Anyone I know
with a Canon 7D's would normally have it set to shoot at it's maximum 8
frames per second - and find it hard to take just one image at a time.  Then
there is the fact it's a rare bird giving reasonably good close views.
Surely there must be more photos to be had.

Thanks for the challenge!

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland

References

http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374

http://tools.wmflabs.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Kure_Atoll¶ms=28_2
5_N_178_20_W_type:isle
http://www.timegenie.com/city.time/xpmki
http://pveducation.org/pvcdrom/properties-of-sunlight/sun-position-calculato
r 

Exif Data (obtained using Opanda Iexif 2) Image was taken with a Canon EOS
7D Exposure (1/1250") F number (F11) ISO (640) Exposure bias (-0.67EV) Focal
length (105mm) Metering mode (Pattern)


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
Sent: 21 November 2014 20:57
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll

Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.

The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which is much
darker than European subspecies.

Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/hrbp-pages/06-pter-tima/skla
-hrbp.htm
including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the
Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of nominate
arvensis and japonica:
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/pdfs/06-PTER-TIMA/SKLA.pdf

Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and
identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html
http://www.birdskorea.org/Birds/Identification/ID_Notes/BK-ID-Lark-Taxonomy.
shtml
https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wb/v14n03/p0113-p0126.pdf

Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:

"p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN SKYLARK to
SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)."

Cheerio,

Peter

At 02:11 AM 11/21/2014, Lee G R Evans wrote:
>Peter
>
>Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
>
>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374
>
>In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK 
>has a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively 
>long tail and  generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, 
>the most definitive  field characters are in flight, ES having a broad 
>white trailing edge to the  secondaries and inner primaries and 
>Oriental a rather diffuse sandy-buff  trailing edge (although be wary 
>of juvenile ES early in the autumn).
>
>Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill 
>shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed 
>tip), a much  more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores), 
>narrower breast
>  streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring 
>eye-stripe  and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the 
>ground colour rather  than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail 
>coverts of ES). The ear-coverts  have warmer rufous tinges to them and 
>often, a weak rufescent outer web gives a  distinct impression of a 
>rufous wing-panel in flight. The relatively shorter  tail and wings 
>often give an impression of Woodlark in flight.
>
>In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is 
>on call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an 
>equally
>  loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
>
>SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
>
>As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist  of 8 
>clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae from 
>central & southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella 
>across  much of central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran 
>and dulcivox  from the Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian 
>pekinensis, kibarti &  intermedia from further east. A complication 
>comes with the little-studied  JAPANESE SKYLARK (japonica), which forms 
>a bridging gap between the two and does  have some differences in 
>vocalisations but is currently retained in this  grouping.
>
>ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right, 
>breeding across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to 
>Kazakhstan and Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
>
>Best wishes
>
>You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding
>
>Make  your records go much further and contribute towards the 
>protection, knowledge  and further education of our native wildlife - 
>join up to BIRDTRACK today - you  know it makes sense - 
>http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/main/data-home.jsp
>
>
>
>Lee G  R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour 
>Leader General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
>(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/)
>British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information - 
>http://ultimateguidingbirdwise.blogspot.co.uk/
>Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements - 
>_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
>Western  Palearctic Bird News -
>http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
>Items  For Sale or Exchange -
>http://leesmemorabiliaandcollectables.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Local  Websites
>Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Buckinghamshire  Birding -
>http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Birds  of Tring Reservoirs -
>http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
>Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 00:07:03 +0000
Hi Peter,

Is the consensus you have been receiving based on the single available shot
or on other details provided by the observer(s)?

Could the apparent darkness of the bird in the single available shot be
attributable to lighting?  

The Exif data for the only available image says it was taken at 17:58:43 on
11.11.2014 which seems to be closely approaching sunset on Kure Atoll.  The
lighting in the shot looks about right for that - long shadows cast by the
bird onto itself and long shadows also cast by the plant to the left of it.


I'd be nervous about assigning a bird to race based on one shot, let alone a
shot with this kind of composition and lighting.  That said a long-distance
migrant would seem like the more likely scenario.

It would be great to get hold of the original Canon 7D image.  What we have
available is a poorly compressed JPEG - hardly the original from the camera.
Really great if a RAW file is available for the image but the original JPEG
would be a good start.  

Lastly, surely there must be other shots taken of this bird.  Anyone I know
with a Canon 7D's would normally have it set to shoot at it's maximum 8
frames per second - and find it hard to take just one image at a time.  Then
there is the fact it's a rare bird giving reasonably good close views.
Surely there must be more photos to be had.

Thanks for the challenge!

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland

References

http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374

http://tools.wmflabs.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Kure_Atoll¶ms=28_2
5_N_178_20_W_type:isle
http://www.timegenie.com/city.time/xpmki 
http://pveducation.org/pvcdrom/properties-of-sunlight/sun-position-calculato
r 

Exif Data (obtained using Opanda Iexif 2)
Image was taken with a Canon EOS 7D
Exposure (1/1250")
F number (F11)
ISO (640)
Exposure bias (-0.67EV)
Focal length (105mm)
Metering mode (Pattern)


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
Sent: 21 November 2014 20:57
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll

Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.

The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which is much
darker than European subspecies.

Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/hrbp-pages/06-pter-tima/skla
-hrbp.htm
including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the
Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of nominate
arvensis and japonica:
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/pdfs/06-PTER-TIMA/SKLA.pdf

Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and
identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html
http://www.birdskorea.org/Birds/Identification/ID_Notes/BK-ID-Lark-Taxonomy.
shtml
https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wb/v14n03/p0113-p0126.pdf

Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:

"p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN SKYLARK to
SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)."

Cheerio,

Peter

At 02:11 AM 11/21/2014, Lee G R Evans wrote:
>Peter
>
>Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
>
>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374
>
>In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK 
>has a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively 
>long tail and  generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, 
>the most definitive  field characters are in flight, ES having a broad 
>white trailing edge to the  secondaries and inner primaries and 
>Oriental a rather diffuse sandy-buff  trailing edge (although be wary 
>of juvenile ES early in the autumn).
>
>Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill 
>shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed 
>tip), a much  more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores), 
>narrower breast
>  streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring 
>eye-stripe  and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the 
>ground colour rather  than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail 
>coverts of ES). The ear-coverts  have warmer rufous tinges to them and 
>often, a weak rufescent outer web gives a  distinct impression of a 
>rufous wing-panel in flight. The relatively shorter  tail and wings 
>often give an impression of Woodlark in flight.
>
>In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is 
>on call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an 
>equally
>  loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
>
>SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
>
>As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist  of 8 
>clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae from  
>central & southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella 
>across  much of central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran 
>and dulcivox  from the Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian 
>pekinensis, kibarti &  intermedia from further east. A complication 
>comes with the little-studied  JAPANESE SKYLARK (japonica), which forms 
>a bridging gap between the two and does  have some differences in 
>vocalisations but is currently retained in this  grouping.
>
>ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right,  
>breeding across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to 
>Kazakhstan and Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
>
>Best wishes
>
>You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding
>
>Make  your records go much further and contribute towards the 
>protection, knowledge  and further education of our native wildlife - 
>join up to BIRDTRACK today - you  know it makes sense - 
>http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/main/data-home.jsp
>
>
>
>Lee G  R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour  
>Leader General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
>(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/)
>British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information - 
>http://ultimateguidingbirdwise.blogspot.co.uk/
>Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements - 
>_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
>Western  Palearctic Bird News -
>http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
>Items  For Sale or Exchange -
>http://leesmemorabiliaandcollectables.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Local  Websites
>Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Buckinghamshire  Birding - 
>http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Birds  of Tring Reservoirs - 
>http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
>Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

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Subject: Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:56:35 -0800
Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.

The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which 
is much darker than European subspecies.

Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here

http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/hrbp-pages/06-pter-tima/skla-hrbp.htm 

including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the 
Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of 
nominate arvensis and japonica:
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/pdfs/06-PTER-TIMA/SKLA.pdf

Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and 
identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html

http://www.birdskorea.org/Birds/Identification/ID_Notes/BK-ID-Lark-Taxonomy.shtml 

https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wb/v14n03/p0113-p0126.pdf

Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:

"p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN 
SKYLARK to SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)."

Cheerio,

Peter

At 02:11 AM 11/21/2014, Lee G R Evans wrote:
>Peter
>
>Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
>
>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374
>
>In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK has
>a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively long tail
>and  generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, the most
>definitive  field characters are in flight, ES having a broad white 
>trailing edge
>to the  secondaries and inner primaries and Oriental a rather diffuse
>sandy-buff  trailing edge (although be wary of juvenile ES early in 
>the autumn).
>
>Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill
>shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed tip), a
>much  more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores), 
>narrower breast
>  streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring
>eye-stripe  and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the ground
>colour rather  than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail 
>coverts of ES). The
>ear-coverts  have warmer rufous tinges to them and often, a weak rufescent
>outer web gives a  distinct impression of a rufous wing-panel in flight. The
>relatively shorter  tail and wings often give an impression of Woodlark in
>flight.
>
>In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is on
>call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an equally
>  loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
>
>SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
>
>As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist  of 8
>clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae 
>from  central
>& southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella across  much of
>central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran and dulcivox  from the
>Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian pekinensis, kibarti &  intermedia from
>further east. A complication comes with the little-studied  JAPANESE
>SKYLARK (japonica), which forms a bridging gap between the two and 
>does  have some
>differences in vocalisations but is currently retained in this  grouping.
>
>ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right,  breeding
>across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to Kazakhstan and
>Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
>
>Best wishes
>
>You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding
>
>Make  your records go much further and contribute towards the protection,
>knowledge  and further education of our native wildlife - join up to
>BIRDTRACK today - you  know it makes sense -
>http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/main/data-home.jsp
>
>
>
>Lee G  R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour  Leader
>General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
>(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/)
>British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information -
>http://ultimateguidingbirdwise.blogspot.co.uk/
>Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements -
>_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_ 
>(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
>Western  Palearctic Bird News -
>http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
>Items  For Sale or Exchange -
>http://leesmemorabiliaandcollectables.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Local  Websites
>Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Buckinghamshire  Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Birds  of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
>Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

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Subject: Re: Skylark names
From: "Robert O'Brien" <baro AT PDX.EDU>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 05:57:57 -0800
To the extent that abhorrance is an emotional state, i'll second that
emotion.  May i suggest a more appropriate binomial? Skylark Lark. Bob
OBrien Carver OR.

On Thursday, November 20, 2014, DPratt14  wrote:
> Hi everyone:
>
> I abhor the neologism "Sky Lark", which flies in the face of long
tradition in the English language.  Shelley wrote "To a Skylark" not "To a
Sky Lark".  The ornithological practice of trying to reconfigure the
English language based on newly minted rules is an abomination, especially
when there is no good purpose served.
>
> Doug Pratt
>
>
> "How terribly strange to be seventy."  -Paul Simon, "Old Friends" 1968
>
> H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
> Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
> 1205 Selwyn Lane
> Cary, NC  27511
>
> Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
> North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
> 11 West Jones Street
> Raleigh NC  27601
>
> Phone 919-379-1679
> Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)
>
> Website:  http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/index.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 05:11:24 -0500
Peter
 
Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
 
http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374
 
In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK has  
a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively long tail 
and  generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, the most 
definitive field characters are in flight, ES having a broad white trailing 
edge 

to the  secondaries and inner primaries and Oriental a rather diffuse 
sandy-buff trailing edge (although be wary of juvenile ES early in the autumn). 

 
Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill  
shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed tip), a 
much more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores), narrower breast 

 streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring 
eye-stripe  and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the ground 
colour rather than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail coverts of ES). 
The 

ear-coverts  have warmer rufous tinges to them and often, a weak rufescent 
outer web gives a  distinct impression of a rufous wing-panel in flight. The 
relatively shorter  tail and wings often give an impression of Woodlark in 
flight.
 
In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is on  
call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an equally 
 loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
 
SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
 
As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist  of 8 
clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae from central 

& southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella across  much of 
central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran and dulcivox  from the 
Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian pekinensis, kibarti &  intermedia from 
further east. A complication comes with the little-studied  JAPANESE 
SKYLARK (japonica), which forms a bridging gap between the two and does have 
some 

differences in vocalisations but is currently retained in this  grouping.
 
ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right,  breeding 
across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to Kazakhstan and  
Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
 
Best wishes  

You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding

Make  your records go much further and contribute towards the protection, 
knowledge  and further education of our native wildlife - join up to 
BIRDTRACK today - you  know it makes sense -  
http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/main/data-home.jsp



Lee G  R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour  Leader
General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ 
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) 
British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk_ 
(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/) 
Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information - 
http://ultimateguidingbirdwise.blogspot.co.uk/
Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements - 
_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_ 
(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/) 

Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
Western  Palearctic Bird News - 
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
Items  For Sale or Exchange - 
http://leesmemorabiliaandcollectables.blogspot.co.uk/

Local  Websites
Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Buckinghamshire  Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Birds  of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Skylark names
From: DPratt14 <DPratt14 AT NC.RR.COM>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 01:51:18 -0500
Hi everyone:

I abhor the neologism "Sky Lark", which flies in the face of long  
tradition in the English language.  Shelley wrote "To a Skylark" not  
"To a Sky Lark".  The ornithological practice of trying to reconfigure  
the English language based on newly minted rules is an abomination,  
especially when there is no good purpose served.

Doug Pratt


"How terribly strange to be seventy."  -Paul Simon, "Old Friends" 1968

H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
1205 Selwyn Lane
Cary, NC  27511

Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
11 West Jones Street
Raleigh NC  27601

Phone 919-379-1679
Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)

Website:  http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/index.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 15:39:52 -0800
Greetings all -

The bird in this image:
http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374

was observed on Kure Atoll, Northwestern Hawaiian Islands, 4-12 
November 2014. This is the only photograph. It was identified as a 
probable Sky Lark by the observers. We are interested in comments on 
the species and subspecies identification.

There is one previous record of Sky Lark for Kure, of the Asian 
subspecies pekinensis of the nominate (arvensis) group, from October 
1963. The nominate European subspecies, or some mixture involving it, 
has been introduced to the Southeastern Hawaiian Islands and has 
occurred as a vagrant (presumably from the southeastern islands) to 
French Frigate Shoals, about a third of the way out from Kauai to Kure.

I am also interested in the current thinking on species status and 
for Oriental Sky Lark (A. gulgula) as well as common names within the 
genus. Most, including the AOU, seem to regard Oriental Sky Lark as a 
separate species but, if so, the AOU name "Sky Lark" for the 
arvensis/japonica groups would seem to need a modifier.

Peter 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: FW:grlazaro@yahoo.es f
From: grlazaro <grlazaro AT YAHOO.ES>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 06:05:12 +0000
http://www.sim-stroy.com/dvza/kfuklyghrduubtjggtedzcckqmzxedse.mrzqcnqufmnugcysgebxbfxgflolqkceh 




 grlazaro AT yahoo.es


 
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Another Goldeneye
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 19:41:52 -0800
I agree that this is an adult and am wondering if 
it might be an older female with some traits 
(bill color, back color, visible white in the 
scapulars, but not white in the face) showing 
male-like characters due to senescence. I'd guess 
that the same mechanisms resulting in male-like 
plumage in these females (reduced levels of 
estrogen that normally mask effects of 
testosterone) could be acting on the bill color as well.

Overall the bill size and head shape strike me 
more like a Barrow's Goldeneye, but I'd hesitate 
to confirm this based on these photos, especially if it is indeed a female.

Peter

At 07:18 PM 11/19/2014, Tony leukering wrote:
>Brad:
>
>The very bright yellow eye indicates an adult, 
>while the very black back indicates a male.  I'm 
>not sure what that all means for the bird's ID, 
>but the intermediate scapular pattern may 
>indicate mixed ancestry.  The most puzzling 
>aspect of the bird to me is the brown head at 
>this season on a bird that ought to be an adult male.
>
>¡Muy interesante!
>
>Tony
>
>Tony Leukering
>Largo, FL
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
> > On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Brad Singer  wrote:
> >
> > Since you are all on the subject of 
> Goldeneyes, I thought I would see if I could
> > get some help on both the age and species of 
> the following bird.  We observed
> > it with a flock of Common's and one adult 
> male Barrow's.  The Barrow's was a first
> > for the area and considered very rare for its 
> location on a Southern California
> > mountain lake.  We observed the bird in 
> question as it was swimming away from us.
> > It caught our eye immediately with its 
> extremely dark uppers. My field notes
> > indicate that it maintained a steep forehead 
> profile at most times while swimming.
> > The bill, in person, appeared somewhat dainty 
> although bill size is very difficult
> > for me to determine in the field. Sorry for the poor photos.
> > Brad Singer
> > Lake Arrowhead, Ca
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcsinger/15612252648/in/photostream/
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcsinger/15799228962/in/photostream/
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Another Goldeneye
From: Tony leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 22:18:53 -0500
Brad:

The very bright yellow eye indicates an adult, while the very black back 
indicates a male. I'm not sure what that all means for the bird's ID, but the 
intermediate scapular pattern may indicate mixed ancestry. The most puzzling 
aspect of the bird to me is the brown head at this season on a bird that ought 
to be an adult male. 


¡Muy interesante!

Tony

Tony Leukering
Largo, FL
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

> On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Brad Singer  wrote:
> 
> Since you are all on the subject of Goldeneyes, I thought I would see if I 
could 

> get some help on both the age and species of the following bird.  We observed
> it with a flock of Common's and one adult male Barrow's. The Barrow's was a 
first 

> for the area and considered very rare for its location on a Southern 
California 

> mountain lake. We observed the bird in question as it was swimming away from 
us. 

> It caught our eye immediately with its extremely dark uppers. My field notes
> indicate that it maintained a steep forehead profile at most times while 
swimming. 

> The bill, in person, appeared somewhat dainty although bill size is very 
difficult 

> for me to determine in the field. Sorry for the poor photos.
> Brad Singer
> Lake Arrowhead, Ca
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcsinger/15612252648/in/photostream/
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcsinger/15799228962/in/photostream/
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Another Goldeneye
From: Brad Singer <bcsinger AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 18:59:15 -0600
Since you are all on the subject of Goldeneyes, I thought I would see if I 
could 

get some help on both the age and species of the following bird.  We observed
it with a flock of Common's and one adult male Barrow's. The Barrow's was a 
first 

for the area and considered very rare for its location on a Southern California
mountain lake. We observed the bird in question as it was swimming away from 
us. 

It caught our eye immediately with its extremely dark uppers. My field notes
indicate that it maintained a steep forehead profile at most times while 
swimming. 

The bill, in person, appeared somewhat dainty although bill size is very 
difficult 

for me to determine in the field. Sorry for the poor photos.
Brad Singer
Lake Arrowhead, Ca
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcsinger/15612252648/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcsinger/15799228962/in/photostream/

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
From: David Sibley <sibleyguides AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 15:26:36 -0500
I agree with Peter that this bird looks more like a male based on shape and 
size (comparing the male and female in the same photo). When I see 
drake-plumaged female waterfowl they always seem to retain typical female 
size and shape, so I would lean strongly to male for this bird. That said, the 
plumage is odd, with paler brown head than normal for a male, and (as Dave 
Irons points out) a disconnect between the white on the face and absence of 
white on scapulars and flanks, which might all go together with the odd bill 
color. 


For what its worth I have seen one Common Goldeneye years ago in Connecticut 
that had a yellow bill but in size and shape was more like an immature male. 


Another thing to keep in mind is that its possible that all goldeneyes have 
yellow pigment in the bill, and what we are seeing is simply an absence of 
black, rather than an addition of yellow. 


Good Birding, 

David Sibley
Concord, MA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 12:01:33 -0800
The suspect bird appears to be a first-fall (HY) individual based on 
the mixed brown (juvenile) and gray (formative) back, breast, and 
flank feathers, in which case I'd rule out the senescent female 
option. Most first-fall males lack black in the bill all together. So 
it's either a first-fall male with an anomalous yellow bill or a 
first-fall female with a white cheek patch. The bill seems large to 
me, more male-like. In any case, it would be interesting to follow 
this bird through the winter, if possible, to see how bill color and 
plumage might change.

Peter

At 10:50 AM 11/19/2014, Tony Leukering wrote:
>Dave et al.:
>
>I have seen a fair few (n~12) brown-headed Common Goldeneyes that 
>sported orange/yellow-orange bills, and published on such.  Though 
>I've assumed all were females, I've never seen one that exhibited 
>any suggestion of male plumage such as this bird.  I think that your 
>hypothesis has merit.
>
>Tony
>
>
>
>
>Tony Leukering
>currently Mayville, MI
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>
>http://aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David Irons 
>To: BIRDWG01 
>Sent: Wed, Nov 19, 2014 1:38 pm
>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
>
>
>Greetings All,
>
>Yesterday, Jen Sanford photographed a rather interesting Common 
>Goldeneye along
>the Columbia River near Portland. It looks mostly like a female and has an
>all-yellow/orange bill and yet it shows an emerging white facial 
>spot below the
>eye, suggesting that it is a young male. The gallery at the link 
>below includes
>two photos of the bird, including one with two other Common 
>Goldeneyes, one of
>which is a more typical young male. In the group photo, the lefthand 
>bird is the
>one in question.
>

>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/920-odd-portland-oregon-common-goldeneye 

>
>I've never seen a male Common Goldeneye with an all-yellow bill and 
>can't find
>any online photos or mention of such. Has anyone in this forum ever 
>seen such a
>bird. Also, I don't normally see or notice the emerging white facial spot in
>young male Commons until they start transitioning and look like the 
>more typical
>young male (front bird) in the photo of three birds. Some of us locally are
>speculating that this might be a female that is hormonally 
>imbalanced in a way
>that is producing some male plumage characteristics. In a blog piece 
>he did back
>in 2010, Sibley 

>(http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/01/distinguishing-female-barrows-and-common-goldeneyes/) 

>
>indicates that all-yellow bills are "rare but regular" in female Common
>Goldeneyes, but makes no mention of this for male Commons of any age.
>
>I will look forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this bird.
>
>Dave Irons
>Portland, OR
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 13:57:37 -0600
I wonder if this bird is an intersex. That would explain the combination of
male and female charateristics...

Noah Arthur, Lincoln, NE

On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 12:36 PM, David Irons  wrote:

> Greetings All,
>
> Yesterday, Jen Sanford photographed a rather interesting Common Goldeneye
> along the Columbia River near Portland. It looks mostly like a female and
> has an all-yellow/orange bill and yet it shows an emerging white facial
> spot below the eye, suggesting that it is a young male. The gallery at the
> link below includes two photos of the bird, including one with two other
> Common Goldeneyes, one of which is a more typical young male. In the group
> photo, the lefthand bird is the one in question.
>
>
> 
http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/920-odd-portland-oregon-common-goldeneye 

>
> I've never seen a male Common Goldeneye with an all-yellow bill and can't
> find any online photos or mention of such. Has anyone in this forum ever
> seen such a bird. Also, I don't normally see or notice the emerging white
> facial spot in young male Commons until they start transitioning and look
> like the more typical young male (front bird) in the photo of three birds.
> Some of us locally are speculating that this might be a female that is
> hormonally imbalanced in a way that is producing some male plumage
> characteristics. In a blog piece he did back in 2010, Sibley (
> 
http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/01/distinguishing-female-barrows-and-common-goldeneyes/) 

> indicates that all-yellow bills are "rare but regular" in female Common
> Goldeneyes, but makes no mention of this for male Commons of any age.
>
> I will look forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this bird.
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 13:50:03 -0500
Dave et al.:

I have seen a fair few (n~12) brown-headed Common Goldeneyes that sported 
orange/yellow-orange bills, and published on such. Though I've assumed all were 
females, I've never seen one that exhibited any suggestion of male plumage such 
as this bird. I think that your hypothesis has merit. 


Tony

 


Tony Leukering
currently Mayville, MI

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Irons 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Wed, Nov 19, 2014 1:38 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR


Greetings All,

Yesterday, Jen Sanford photographed a rather interesting Common Goldeneye along 

the Columbia River near Portland. It looks mostly like a female and has an 
all-yellow/orange bill and yet it shows an emerging white facial spot below the 

eye, suggesting that it is a young male. The gallery at the link below includes 

two photos of the bird, including one with two other Common Goldeneyes, one of 
which is a more typical young male. In the group photo, the lefthand bird is 
the 

one in question.


http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/920-odd-portland-oregon-common-goldeneye 


I've never seen a male Common Goldeneye with an all-yellow bill and can't find 
any online photos or mention of such. Has anyone in this forum ever seen such a 

bird. Also, I don't normally see or notice the emerging white facial spot in 
young male Commons until they start transitioning and look like the more 
typical 

young male (front bird) in the photo of three birds. Some of us locally are 
speculating that this might be a female that is hormonally imbalanced in a way 
that is producing some male plumage characteristics. In a blog piece he did 
back 

in 2010, Sibley 
(http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/01/distinguishing-female-barrows-and-common-goldeneyes/) 

indicates that all-yellow bills are "rare but regular" in female Common 
Goldeneyes, but makes no mention of this for male Commons of any age.

I will look forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this bird.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR 
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 18:36:20 +0000
Greetings All,

Yesterday, Jen Sanford photographed a rather interesting Common Goldeneye along 
the Columbia River near Portland. It looks mostly like a female and has an 
all-yellow/orange bill and yet it shows an emerging white facial spot below the 
eye, suggesting that it is a young male. The gallery at the link below includes 
two photos of the bird, including one with two other Common Goldeneyes, one of 
which is a more typical young male. In the group photo, the lefthand bird is 
the one in question. 



http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/920-odd-portland-oregon-common-goldeneye 


I've never seen a male Common Goldeneye with an all-yellow bill and can't find 
any online photos or mention of such. Has anyone in this forum ever seen such a 
bird. Also, I don't normally see or notice the emerging white facial spot in 
young male Commons until they start transitioning and look like the more 
typical young male (front bird) in the photo of three birds. Some of us locally 
are speculating that this might be a female that is hormonally imbalanced in a 
way that is producing some male plumage characteristics. In a blog piece he did 
back in 2010, Sibley 
(http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/01/distinguishing-female-barrows-and-common-goldeneyes/) 
indicates that all-yellow bills are "rare but regular" in female Common 
Goldeneyes, but makes no mention of this for male Commons of any age. 


I will look forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this bird.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR 
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose
From: Ian McLaren <I.A.McLaren AT DAL.CA>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 15:07:32 +0000
All:

I probably did get the Japanese reference from Joe Morlan's site and forgot 
that I had done so. Apologies. 


It might also be noted that, contrary to the AOU fabilis and serrirostris 
split, Ruokonen and Aarvak (2011. 

Ardea 99: 103111) link both Tundras with fabilis, based partly on mtDNA, but 
find middendorffii distinctive. 


The cautions noted by Joe Morlan need to be heeded.

Ian McLaren
________________________________________
From: Joseph Morlan  on behalf of Joseph Morlan 
 

Sent: November-18-14 7:41 PM
To: Ian McLaren
Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU; David Irons
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose

All,

I did not see a link to the online version of this paper. It can be
downloaded at...

http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmorlan/Middendorffi%20_%20serrirostris.pdf

These biometrics were applied to a controversial Bean Goose at the Salton
Sea...

http://birdingfrontiers.com/2010/11/20/california-bean-goose/

These close-up profile photos of the bill were analyzed by Mariko Parslow
with the following result...

----------------------------------------snip-------------------------------

My principle is that one Anser fabalis which appears outside of its general
distribution range should not carry any subspecies name attached. However,
purely for a morphological argument, I would accept this Salton-Sea Bean
Goose as a small Anser fabalis subsp. middendorffii.

This is only under provision that it is of wild origin, and that the
accompanying Anser albifrons belongs to the subspecies frontalis of wild
origin.

My reasons are as follows;


Facial characters
It is apparent that this bird does not belong to A. f. serrirostris, as, in
its 'field' or 'in-situ' appearance calculated from the photographs (the
range shows variation caused by the angle in various pictures), the
parameters of facial characters tell otherwise.
(1) It lacks the characteristic bulge of lower mandible; at the end of
nostril, the ratio between the thickest part of lower mandible in side view
/ total thickness of both mandible is 0.20 - 0.22. (Just OK for A.f.
serrirostris, but usually 0.22 - over 0.25, cannot recall maximum.)
(2) The ratio between the bill height at the base (both upper + lower) /
the skull height is 0.68 - 0.75. (In A.f. serrirostris the value is 0.65 or
lower.)
(3) The ratio between the upper bill length in side view / the skull length
in side view is some 1.18 - 1.25. (In A.f. serrirostris it is 1.00 or
lower.)
(4) The ratio between upper bill length in side view / the upper bill depth
at base in side view is 2.00 - 2.40. (In A.f. serrirostris it is 1.85 or
lower.)
This combination matches only those of A. f. middendorffii, so far as I
know of from living individuals.

These ratio are calculated from the side view in the field, and not of the
usual biological measurement, e.g. 'bill length', 'skull height', and so
on.

The combination (2)-(4) gives the middendorffii its characteristic
stream-line forehead, not found in A.f. fabalis, its Taiga counterpart in
the western Palaearctic. Some large male A.f. fabalis do resemble A.f.
middendorffii, as in the "Falkirk bird" referred to on the website of CA
bird. However, they never, ever have total combination of these field
characters. Namely, the typical A.f. fabalis has characteristic drop in its
forehead, as their bill is comparatively thinner at base.

It is rather a large A.f. rossicus male which resembles middendorffii in
its shape of a streamlined forehead. I have seen some individuals of A.f.
rossicus in Pannonian population showing similar characters in the field.
Several skins, preserved and marked as both Scandinavian and Eastern
European origins and of unknown subspecies, in the relevant collections in
Europe, also shows similar character combination. One of them was an
authentic material of so called A.f. johansennii, in Budapest, the epithet
which I do not believe exists as a living population. However, judging from
the skins only, in these individuals, the value for (3) tends to be 0.65 -
0.90 rarely 1.00, and that for (4) lower than 1.85.

Size of the bird
Only one concern about this bird being A.f. middendorffii is its small
size. For the subspecies, this bird is undersized, being only slightly
larger than A. albifrons frontalis in the background. But considering that
it is a female whereas the A. albifrons is a male (I regret I have no way
to explain why, but from its posture, comparatively short neck compared to
body length and round lower belly, I am certain, and so am I for the
White-fronted), its size appears just acceptable.

From its behaviour
The fact that it is with A. albifrons subsp. frontalis would mean, provided
that they also are of wild origins. So it is illogical to assume that this
individual originated from Scandinavia, and this excludes the possibility
of it being an A.f. fabalis of unusual facial structure.


Finally, I add a couple of irrelevant notes regarding distinction between
A.f. serrirostris and A.f. middendorffii, which may be of interest for the
contributor(s) of the Salton bird web page. Please convey if you think
appropriate.

Among the facial character (ratio) described as above, the combination of
(1) and (2) would A.f. serrirostris a characteristic drop in its forehead,
and the bill would give an impression that it were curved 'round'
underneath (like an Avocet although less exaggerated).
        Their calls and tone of the voice are completely different; the
voice is much deeper and with shorter syllables in A.f. middendorffii's
than that of A.f. serrirostris, to the extent never heard from any other
subspecies of Bean Geese. The voice of A.f. serrirostris is also deeper
than those of two western subspecies, but the syllables are similar. It
appears as if A.f. serrirostris and A.f. middendorffii speak in different
languages. A short call from one single bird may not be enough for
distinction, but if heard from several individuals, it would be impossible
to make a mistake about their subspecies.

--------------------------------------snip--------------------------------


On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 23:31:31 +0000, Ian McLaren  wrote:

>All:?
>
>
>I found the following (on-line) was useful in assessing the Tundra Bean-Goose 
that turned up last autumn in Nova Scotia. Separating the two species from 
their Asian range should be easy. Use their tabulation of bill measurements of 
the to produce rations +/- 95% limits, or whatever. Might need a statistician 
to help getting legitimate limits with ratios, but can do approximation of 
limits close enough.. Then use these ratios to to see which relative 
measurements of your goose's bill in good profile give a match. As I remember, 
the ratios of some bill measurements differ quite a bit between the two 
species; subspecies of each are trickier. 

>
>
>Cheers, Ian McLaren
>
>
>
>Kurechi, Masayuki, Yoshio Yokota, and Mariko Otsu 1983. Notes on the Field 
Identification of Anser fabalis serrirostris and A. f. middendorfi. Tori 
32:95-106. [In Japanese with English tables and figure captions].? 

>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA
"It turns out we're very good at not seeing things" - Jack Hitt

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan AT CCSF.EDU>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 15:41:19 -0800
All,

I did not see a link to the online version of this paper. It can be
downloaded at...

http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmorlan/Middendorffi%20_%20serrirostris.pdf

These biometrics were applied to a controversial Bean Goose at the Salton
Sea...

http://birdingfrontiers.com/2010/11/20/california-bean-goose/

These close-up profile photos of the bill were analyzed by Mariko Parslow
with the following result...

----------------------------------------snip-------------------------------

My principle is that one Anser fabalis which appears outside of its general
distribution range should not carry any subspecies name attached. However,
purely for a morphological argument, I would accept this Salton-Sea Bean
Goose as a small Anser fabalis subsp. middendorffii.

This is only under provision that it is of wild origin, and that the
accompanying Anser albifrons belongs to the subspecies frontalis of wild
origin.

My reasons are as follows;

   
Facial characters
It is apparent that this bird does not belong to A. f. serrirostris, as, in
its 'field' or 'in-situ' appearance calculated from the photographs (the
range shows variation caused by the angle in various pictures), the
parameters of facial characters tell otherwise. 
(1) It lacks the characteristic bulge of lower mandible; at the end of
nostril, the ratio between the thickest part of lower mandible in side view
/ total thickness of both mandible is 0.20 - 0.22. (Just OK for A.f.
serrirostris, but usually 0.22 - over 0.25, cannot recall maximum.)
(2) The ratio between the bill height at the base (both upper + lower) /
the skull height is 0.68 - 0.75. (In A.f. serrirostris the value is 0.65 or
lower.) 
(3) The ratio between the upper bill length in side view / the skull length
in side view is some 1.18 - 1.25. (In A.f. serrirostris it is 1.00 or
lower.)
(4) The ratio between upper bill length in side view / the upper bill depth
at base in side view is 2.00 - 2.40. (In A.f. serrirostris it is 1.85 or
lower.) 
This combination matches only those of A. f. middendorffii, so far as I
know of from living individuals.

These ratio are calculated from the side view in the field, and not of the
usual biological measurement, e.g. 'bill length', 'skull height', and so
on. 

The combination (2)-(4) gives the middendorffii its characteristic
stream-line forehead, not found in A.f. fabalis, its Taiga counterpart in
the western Palaearctic. Some large male A.f. fabalis do resemble A.f.
middendorffii, as in the "Falkirk bird" referred to on the website of CA
bird. However, they never, ever have total combination of these field
characters. Namely, the typical A.f. fabalis has characteristic drop in its
forehead, as their bill is comparatively thinner at base. 
  
It is rather a large A.f. rossicus male which resembles middendorffii in
its shape of a streamlined forehead. I have seen some individuals of A.f.
rossicus in Pannonian population showing similar characters in the field.
Several skins, preserved and marked as both Scandinavian and Eastern
European origins and of unknown subspecies, in the relevant collections in
Europe, also shows similar character combination. One of them was an
authentic material of so called A.f. johansennii, in Budapest, the epithet
which I do not believe exists as a living population. However, judging from
the skins only, in these individuals, the value for (3) tends to be 0.65 -
0.90 rarely 1.00, and that for (4) lower than 1.85.

Size of the bird
Only one concern about this bird being A.f. middendorffii is its small
size. For the subspecies, this bird is undersized, being only slightly
larger than A. albifrons frontalis in the background. But considering that
it is a female whereas the A. albifrons is a male (I regret I have no way
to explain why, but from its posture, comparatively short neck compared to
body length and round lower belly, I am certain, and so am I for the
White-fronted), its size appears just acceptable.
  
From its behaviour
The fact that it is with A. albifrons subsp. frontalis would mean, provided
that they also are of wild origins. So it is illogical to assume that this
individual originated from Scandinavia, and this excludes the possibility
of it being an A.f. fabalis of unusual facial structure. 


Finally, I add a couple of irrelevant notes regarding distinction between
A.f. serrirostris and A.f. middendorffii, which may be of interest for the
contributor(s) of the Salton bird web page. Please convey if you think
appropriate.

Among the facial character (ratio) described as above, the combination of
(1) and (2) would A.f. serrirostris a characteristic drop in its forehead,
and the bill would give an impression that it were curved 'round'
underneath (like an Avocet although less exaggerated).
	Their calls and tone of the voice are completely different; the
voice is much deeper and with shorter syllables in A.f. middendorffii's
than that of A.f. serrirostris, to the extent never heard from any other
subspecies of Bean Geese. The voice of A.f. serrirostris is also deeper
than those of two western subspecies, but the syllables are similar. It
appears as if A.f. serrirostris and A.f. middendorffii speak in different
languages. A short call from one single bird may not be enough for
distinction, but if heard from several individuals, it would be impossible
to make a mistake about their subspecies.   

--------------------------------------snip--------------------------------


On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 23:31:31 +0000, Ian McLaren  wrote:

>All:?
>
>
>I found the following (on-line) was useful in assessing the Tundra Bean-Goose 
that turned up last autumn in Nova Scotia. Separating the two species from 
their Asian range should be easy. Use their tabulation of bill measurements of 
the to produce rations +/- 95% limits, or whatever. Might need a statistician 
to help getting legitimate limits with ratios, but can do approximation of 
limits close enough.. Then use these ratios to to see which relative 
measurements of your goose's bill in good profile give a match. As I remember, 
the ratios of some bill measurements differ quite a bit between the two 
species; subspecies of each are trickier. 

>
>
>Cheers, Ian McLaren
>
>
>
>Kurechi, Masayuki, Yoshio Yokota, and Mariko Otsu 1983. Notes on the Field 
Identification of Anser fabalis serrirostris and A. f. middendorfi. Tori 
32:95-106. [In Japanese with English tables and figure captions].? 

>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
-- 
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA
"It turns out we're very good at not seeing things" - Jack Hitt

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 04:56:55 +0000
Having seen some additional photos of this bird, there is no doubt that it's a 
Cassin's Finch, for all the reasons suggested by others. 


Dave Irons

> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 20:35:17 -0800
> From: chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> All, 
> 
>    The bill structure (length and depth), as well as those super long
> primaries are all Cassin's to me. Similarly the plumage point that have been
> noted, as well as the good eyering and the narrowly streaked back are
> perfect for Cassin's. But if I had to isolate one feature, the wings. Those
> primaries are too long to be on a Purple Finch in my opinion. 
> 
> Regards, 
> 
> Alvaro 
> 
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 6:58 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> 
> While I generally agree with Bob Yutzy's take on this bird, streaking on the
> undertail coverts doesn't necessarily eliminate Purple Finch. Hatch-year
> Purple Finches, in particular juveniles, often show streaking on the
> undertail coverts. I looked at my own images of HY Purple Finches (western
> form) to double check the streaking on the underparts with this bird. Even
> juvenile Western Purple Finches (ssp. californicus) have broader blurrier
> streaking on the underparts than this bird. I don't have much familiarity
> with the HY birds of the nominate ssp. purpureus, which tends to be less
> olive above and more streaked on the back. I would want to positively
> eliminate the possibility of a young purpureus before going all in on this
> being a Cassin's Finch.
> 
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR 
> 
> > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:03:11 -0800
> > From: boby AT C-ZONE.NET
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > 
> > Hello all,
> > 
> > The eyering, pointy bill, streaked undertail coverts, brighter 
> > somewhat whitish finely streaked breast, the somewhat ill defined 
> > lower section of the malar marks (Purple's are clearly defined on the 
> > lower portion better defining the throat), all point to Cassin's Finch 
> > which we see pretty often in our neck of the woods.
> > 
> > Bob Yutzy
> > Shasta, CA
> > 
> > 
> > On 11/16/2014 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe wrote:
> > > My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's 
> > > a tiny
> > > URL:
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > > Hope it works!
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > > Mary Beth Stowe
> > >
> > > McAllen, TX
> > >
> > > miriameaglemon.com
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > >
> > > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> > >
> > 
> > --
> > Bob & Carol Yutzy
> > Shasta, CA
> > 
> > 
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>  		 	   		  
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8578 - Release Date: 11/15/14
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8578 - Release Date: 11/15/14
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: immature hawk
From: Reid Martin <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 22:46:45 -0600
Dear All,
Further to the points mentioned by Bill and Brian, this bird has only four 
emarginated primaries, limiting the choice in North America to Swainson's, 
Broad-winged, and White-tailed). Other North American buteos have five 
emarginated primaries. 

Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com





On Nov 16, 2014, at Nov 16, 2:38 PM, Hugh McGuinness wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> I came upon this record of an immature Swainson's Hawk on ebird from
> Naples, FL. To me the bird appears to be an imm Short-tailed Hawk, but
> aside from gizz and structure, I realized I am not really sure how to
> separate immatures of the two. So I am wondering if readers here agree it
> is a Short-tailed Hawk, and on what basis can we make the ID. Finally, if I
> am right and since it has been confirmed at e-bird, who should be contacted
> to rectify the record?
> 
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20530051
> 
> -- 
> Hugh McGuinness
> Washington, D.C.
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 20:35:17 -0800
All, 

   The bill structure (length and depth), as well as those super long
primaries are all Cassin's to me. Similarly the plumage point that have been
noted, as well as the good eyering and the narrowly streaked back are
perfect for Cassin's. But if I had to isolate one feature, the wings. Those
primaries are too long to be on a Purple Finch in my opinion. 

Regards, 

Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 6:58 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch

While I generally agree with Bob Yutzy's take on this bird, streaking on the
undertail coverts doesn't necessarily eliminate Purple Finch. Hatch-year
Purple Finches, in particular juveniles, often show streaking on the
undertail coverts. I looked at my own images of HY Purple Finches (western
form) to double check the streaking on the underparts with this bird. Even
juvenile Western Purple Finches (ssp. californicus) have broader blurrier
streaking on the underparts than this bird. I don't have much familiarity
with the HY birds of the nominate ssp. purpureus, which tends to be less
olive above and more streaked on the back. I would want to positively
eliminate the possibility of a young purpureus before going all in on this
being a Cassin's Finch.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR 

> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:03:11 -0800
> From: boby AT C-ZONE.NET
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> The eyering, pointy bill, streaked undertail coverts, brighter 
> somewhat whitish finely streaked breast, the somewhat ill defined 
> lower section of the malar marks (Purple's are clearly defined on the 
> lower portion better defining the throat), all point to Cassin's Finch 
> which we see pretty often in our neck of the woods.
> 
> Bob Yutzy
> Shasta, CA
> 
> 
> On 11/16/2014 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe wrote:
> > My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's 
> > a tiny
> > URL:
> >
> >   
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
> >
> >   
> >
> > Hope it works!
> >
> >   
> >
> > Mary Beth Stowe
> >
> > McAllen, TX
> >
> > miriameaglemon.com
> >
> >   
> >
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> 
> --
> Bob & Carol Yutzy
> Shasta, CA
> 
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


-----
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Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
From: Brian Sullivan <heraldpetrel AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 20:32:33 -0800
Hi Mary Beth et al.

I'm always surprised as how hard some of these out of ranch Purple/Cassin's
Finches can be. This bird seems to fit Cassin's better, with a bold
eyering, fine streaking continuing through the undertail coverts, and
especially the long, rather pointed bill. Cassin's bills vary greatly, from
being relatively shallow-based to deep-based like this bird--but all are
longer and less 'conical' than typical Purple Finches. I think Cassin's
wing projection averages longer, but that might not be a solid character.
Not sure why it would be based on the life history of these two species (or
maybe three species). Eastern Purple Finch is so different in many respects
from Pacific Purple Finch (plumage, voice, and behavior) that I can't
believe we're not looking at species status for those in the coming years.

Thanks

Brian

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe  wrote:

> My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's a tiny
> URL:
>
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
>
>
>
> Hope it works!
>
>
>
> Mary Beth Stowe
>
> McAllen, TX
>
> miriameaglemon.com
>
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
-------------------------------

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: immature hawk
From: Brian Sullivan <heraldpetrel AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 20:19:26 -0800
Hi All

I agree with Bill that this bird is a typical light-morph juvenile
Swainson's. Swainson's have slightly different primary, secondary, and tail
feather patterns that juvenile Short-tailed. The shape differences Bill
points out are fairly obvious, with Swainson's being much longer, and
narrower-winged than juvenile Short-tailed.

Thanks

Brian

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Bill Pranty  wrote:

> Good evening,
>
> This doesn't look like a Short-tailed to me. The wings are too long and
> narrow; Short-taileds have a very Red-tailed profile. Also, I've never seen
> a juvenile Short-tailed with such extensive streaking on the underparts.
> Normally, the underparts, including the underwing coverts, are quite buffy
> with very little streaking on the breast.
>
> Photos of two light-morph juveniles from St. Petersburg, 2 Sep 2011, are
> found here:
>
>
> 
http://listserv.admin.usf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?A2=ind1109&L=BRDBRAIN&T=0&O=A&X=7E1FFD79D96835E3EA&P=27146 

>
> (click on the last two images).
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bill Pranty
> Bayonet Point, Florida
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 15:38:18 -0500
> > From: hdmcguinness AT GMAIL.COM
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] immature hawk
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I came upon this record of an immature Swainson's Hawk on ebird from
> > Naples, FL. To me the bird appears to be an imm Short-tailed Hawk, but
> > aside from gizz and structure, I realized I am not really sure how to
> > separate immatures of the two. So I am wondering if readers here agree it
> > is a Short-tailed Hawk, and on what basis can we make the ID. Finally,
> if I
> > am right and since it has been confirmed at e-bird, who should be
> contacted
> > to rectify the record?
> >
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20530051
> >
> > --
> > Hugh McGuinness
> > Washington, D.C.
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
-------------------------------

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: immature hawk
From: Bill Pranty <billpranty AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 22:21:40 -0500
Good evening,

This doesn't look like a Short-tailed to me. The wings are too long and narrow; 
Short-taileds have a very Red-tailed profile. Also, I've never seen a juvenile 
Short-tailed with such extensive streaking on the underparts. Normally, the 
underparts, including the underwing coverts, are quite buffy with very little 
streaking on the breast. 


Photos of two light-morph juveniles from St. Petersburg, 2 Sep 2011, are found 
here: 



http://listserv.admin.usf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?A2=ind1109&L=BRDBRAIN&T=0&O=A&X=7E1FFD79D96835E3EA&P=27146 


(click on the last two images).


Best regards,

Bill Pranty
Bayonet Point, Florida



> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 15:38:18 -0500
> From: hdmcguinness AT GMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] immature hawk
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I came upon this record of an immature Swainson's Hawk on ebird from
> Naples, FL. To me the bird appears to be an imm Short-tailed Hawk, but
> aside from gizz and structure, I realized I am not really sure how to
> separate immatures of the two. So I am wondering if readers here agree it
> is a Short-tailed Hawk, and on what basis can we make the ID. Finally, if I
> am right and since it has been confirmed at e-bird, who should be contacted
> to rectify the record?
> 
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20530051
> 
> -- 
> Hugh McGuinness
> Washington, D.C.
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 02:57:30 +0000
While I generally agree with Bob Yutzy's take on this bird, streaking on the 
undertail coverts doesn't necessarily eliminate Purple Finch. Hatch-year Purple 
Finches, in particular juveniles, often show streaking on the undertail 
coverts. I looked at my own images of HY Purple Finches (western form) to 
double check the streaking on the underparts with this bird. Even juvenile 
Western Purple Finches (ssp. californicus) have broader blurrier streaking on 
the underparts than this bird. I don't have much familiarity with the HY birds 
of the nominate ssp. purpureus, which tends to be less olive above and more 
streaked on the back. I would want to positively eliminate the possibility of a 
young purpureus before going all in on this being a Cassin's Finch. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR 

> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:03:11 -0800
> From: boby AT C-ZONE.NET
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> The eyering, pointy bill, streaked undertail coverts, brighter somewhat 
> whitish finely streaked breast, the somewhat ill defined lower section 
> of the malar marks (Purple's are clearly defined on the lower portion 
> better defining the throat), all point to Cassin's Finch which we see 
> pretty often in our neck of the woods.
> 
> Bob Yutzy
> Shasta, CA
> 
> 
> On 11/16/2014 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe wrote:
> > My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's a tiny
> > URL:
> >
> >   
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
> >
> >   
> >
> > Hope it works!
> >
> >   
> >
> > Mary Beth Stowe
> >
> > McAllen, TX
> >
> > miriameaglemon.com
> >
> >   
> >
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> 
> -- 
> Bob & Carol Yutzy
> Shasta, CA
> 
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
From: Bob & Carol Yutzy <boby AT C-ZONE.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:03:11 -0800
Hello all,

The eyering, pointy bill, streaked undertail coverts, brighter somewhat 
whitish finely streaked breast, the somewhat ill defined lower section 
of the malar marks (Purple's are clearly defined on the lower portion 
better defining the throat), all point to Cassin's Finch which we see 
pretty often in our neck of the woods.

Bob Yutzy
Shasta, CA


On 11/16/2014 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe wrote:
> My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's a tiny
> URL:
>
>   
>
> http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
>
>   
>
> Hope it works!
>
>   
>
> Mary Beth Stowe
>
> McAllen, TX
>
> miriameaglemon.com
>
>   
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

-- 
Bob & Carol Yutzy
Shasta, CA


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
From: Mary Beth Stowe <mbstowe AT MIRIAMEAGLEMON.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:33:20 -0600
My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's a tiny
URL:

 

http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz

 

Hope it works!

 

Mary Beth Stowe

McAllen, TX

miriameaglemon.com

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Falcated Duck
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 19:12:01 -0500
 Bruce et al.:

Certainly, the dark collar on a white foreneck seems bang on for FADU and the 
bill shape seems odd for most New World ducks, except Northern Pintail (NOPI). 
Having no experience with Falcated Duck (FADU), I've had to browse online 
photos to get any feel for what a alternate-plumaged male might look like. In 
my admittedly short search, I didn't find many such pictures, but one, I 
thought, was illustrative relative to this case: 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/carron/5211209381

The male in the pic above shares quite a few features with Colusa NWR bird, 
particularly the flanks and the brown scaps with pale markings. 


I found another picture that is relevant to this bird, a molting male Gadwall 
(GADW): 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/rivertay/15045939150

While the Colusa bird might be a hybrid, I don't see the GADW and NOPI combo 
producing a bird with such a white tail. I think that the Colusa bird looks 
enough like a FADU that if it is a hybrid, I would vote for FADU x GADW. 


Regardless, I hope that the bird sticks and folks get more pix of it as it goes 
through its molt, as noted by Bruce. 


Enjoy,

Tony



Tony Leukering
currently Mayville, MI

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: BRUCE DEUEL 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Sun, Nov 16, 2014 2:13 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Falcated Duck


Hybrid with Gadwall seems to make the most sense, because of additional
black at the rear and brownish tones to back and wing coverts.  Pintail
might explain the extra white on the chest, but I don't know what an
eclipse Falcated would show there.  If it stays around and continues its
molt, we may learn more.

Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff, CA

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 9:07 AM, David Irons  wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> Do you have a theory about the parentage of this bird? The lower section
> of white on the breast seems too extensive, but otherwise this bird
> suggests a male Falcated coming out of alternate/eclipse plumage. Many
> Asian dabbling duck species molt later than N.A. counterparts (some of
> which are still going through PA molt), but I wouldn't expect a eclipse
> Falcated to have more white on the breast. I don't have answers, but the
> appearance of this bird certainly raises some questions.
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 08:31:35 -0800
> > From: bdeuel AT WILDBLUE.NET
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Falcated Duck
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> >
> > Hi, all.
> > Here is a link to photos posted in an eBird checklist purporting to be a
> > Falcated Duck. I suspect it is not a pure example of this species.
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20446527
> >
> > Bruce Deuel
> > Red Bluff, CA
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Carpodacus Finch in South Texas
From: Mary Beth Stowe <mbstowe AT MIRIAMEAGLEMON.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:44:45 -0600
Hi, all!

 

A female Carpodacus showed up at Resaca de la Palma State Park this morning
that I just assumed was a Purple (pretty rare for down here), so I started
shooting pictures before the thing bolted into the bushes, but one of my
friends advised me not to rule out Cassin's (which would be even rarer, I
would think, but there IS a past record for the Valley), so after looking at
my pictures, I'm wondering if that might be the case.  At first I thought
the facial pattern was too strong and that the breast streaking was too
heavy, but points for Cassin's include:

 

Long, straight-culmened bill

Appearance of an eye ring

More narrow streaking that appears to extend all the way to the undertail
covers (although this could be an optical illusion based on wet feathers)

Contrasting streaking on the back.

 

Photos are here, and feedback is welcome!

 

http://miriameaglemon.com/photo_gallery/2014%20Field%20Trips/November/Resaca
%20de%20la%20Palma%20SP.html

 

MB

 

Mary Beth Stowe

McAllen, TX

miriameaglemon.com

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose
From: Ian McLaren <I.A.McLaren AT DAL.CA>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 23:31:31 +0000
All:?


I found the following (on-line) was useful in assessing the Tundra Bean-Goose 
that turned up last autumn in Nova Scotia. Separating the two species from 
their Asian range should be easy. Use their tabulation of bill measurements of 
the to produce rations +/- 95% limits, or whatever. Might need a statistician 
to help getting legitimate limits with ratios, but can do approximation of 
limits close enough.. Then use these ratios to to see which relative 
measurements of your goose's bill in good profile give a match. As I remember, 
the ratios of some bill measurements differ quite a bit between the two 
species; subspecies of each are trickier. 



Cheers, Ian McLaren



Kurechi, Masayuki, Yoshio Yokota, and Mariko Otsu 1983. Notes on the Field 
Identification of Anser fabalis serrirostris and A. f. middendorfi. Tori 
32:95-106. [In Japanese with English tables and figure captions].? 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Gallery of photos of the Oregon Tundra Bean-Goose
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 21:00:16 +0000
Greetings all,

While the general consensus has been that the Bean-Goose currently being seen 
at Nestucca Bay NWR, (Oregon) is a Tundra, some of us have privately wondered 
about the apparent bill length of this bird. This past Friday I watched the 
goose for over an hour at various distances and angles and took the photos that 
appear in the gallery at the link below. The bill generally appeared pretty 
deep at the base, but when in perfect or near-perfect profile it seemed a bit 
longer and flatter sloped than what might be typical for Tundra Bean-Goose. It 
does show a conspicuous grin patch, as seen in several of the images and the 
orange-yellow on the bill is restricted to a subterminal band that barely 
reaches the outer edge of the nares (best fits Tundra). The shape of the 
coverts and scapulars on this bird (broad and square-ended) suggest that it is 
an after hatch-year bird. Given that my prior experience with bean-geese is 
zero, I'd like to hear opinions about this bird from folks who have familiarity 
with both Tundra (particularly the more easterly populations) and Taiga 
Bean-Geese and how one goes about separating birds with bill lengths that might 
be described as intermediate. 


http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/918-oregon-tundra-bean-goose-photos

Thanks in advance for thoughts about this bird,

Dave Irons
Portland, OR 


 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: immature hawk
From: Hugh McGuinness <hdmcguinness AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 15:38:18 -0500
Hi All,

I came upon this record of an immature Swainson's Hawk on ebird from
Naples, FL. To me the bird appears to be an imm Short-tailed Hawk, but
aside from gizz and structure, I realized I am not really sure how to
separate immatures of the two. So I am wondering if readers here agree it
is a Short-tailed Hawk, and on what basis can we make the ID. Finally, if I
am right and since it has been confirmed at e-bird, who should be contacted
to rectify the record?

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20530051

-- 
Hugh McGuinness
Washington, D.C.

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Falcated Duck
From: BRUCE DEUEL <bdeuel AT WILDBLUE.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 11:11:03 -0800
Hybrid with Gadwall seems to make the most sense, because of additional
black at the rear and brownish tones to back and wing coverts.  Pintail
might explain the extra white on the chest, but I don't know what an
eclipse Falcated would show there.  If it stays around and continues its
molt, we may learn more.

Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff, CA

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 9:07 AM, David Irons  wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> Do you have a theory about the parentage of this bird? The lower section
> of white on the breast seems too extensive, but otherwise this bird
> suggests a male Falcated coming out of alternate/eclipse plumage. Many
> Asian dabbling duck species molt later than N.A. counterparts (some of
> which are still going through PA molt), but I wouldn't expect a eclipse
> Falcated to have more white on the breast. I don't have answers, but the
> appearance of this bird certainly raises some questions.
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 08:31:35 -0800
> > From: bdeuel AT WILDBLUE.NET
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Falcated Duck
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> >
> > Hi, all.
> > Here is a link to photos posted in an eBird checklist purporting to be a
> > Falcated Duck. I suspect it is not a pure example of this species.
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20446527
> >
> > Bruce Deuel
> > Red Bluff, CA
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Falcated Duck
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:07:32 +0000
Bruce,

Do you have a theory about the parentage of this bird? The lower section of 
white on the breast seems too extensive, but otherwise this bird suggests a 
male Falcated coming out of alternate/eclipse plumage. Many Asian dabbling duck 
species molt later than N.A. counterparts (some of which are still going 
through PA molt), but I wouldn't expect a eclipse Falcated to have more white 
on the breast. I don't have answers, but the appearance of this bird certainly 
raises some questions. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR 

> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 08:31:35 -0800
> From: bdeuel AT WILDBLUE.NET
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Falcated Duck
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Hi, all.
> Here is a link to photos posted in an eBird checklist purporting to be a
> Falcated Duck.  I suspect it is not a pure example of this species.
> Thoughts?
> 
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20446527
> 
> Bruce Deuel
> Red Bluff, CA
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Falcated Duck
From: BRUCE DEUEL <bdeuel AT WILDBLUE.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 08:31:35 -0800
Hi, all.
Here is a link to photos posted in an eBird checklist purporting to be a
Falcated Duck.  I suspect it is not a pure example of this species.
Thoughts?

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20446527

Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Forensic Image Analysis Techniques
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 10:39:29 +0000
 

All,

 

Member of this list may find some recent postings of interest.  

 

Forensic Analysis of Images

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/10/forensics-introduction.html


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/forensics-introduction-to-gaussian.html 



http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/forensics-gaussian-analysis-overexposure.html 



http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/10/forensics-analysis-of-shadows.html 


 

 

Recovering Detail from Images


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/10/forensics-maximizing-image-content.html 



http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/09/image-quality-tool-modified-images.html 


 

 

Birds and Light


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/birds-and-light-image-lighting-tools.html 



http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/10/birds-and-light-seabirds.html 



http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/birds-and-light-translucency.html 


 

Regards

 

Mike O’Keeffe

Ireland

 

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/ 

 

 

 

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 08:17:28 -0800
Tristan 

  With this in mind, I do think that the default in this genus is for
colored (not black) bills. Black in the bills seems to be a derived feature
within the genus. Weirdly enough though black in bills shows up in Elegants,
as well as southern Cayennes (well away from Sandwich genes) yet it does not
do so in Royal. 

Regards, 

Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Tristan McKee
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 12:48 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is
usually miside...

Great thread! The unlocking of traits unexpressed in pure populations
through hybridization is an amazing subject, distressing though it may be
from an identification perspective. The most common examples I come across
are of unlocked ancestral traits; I would be interested in learning of other
pathways if they have been studied. I am beginning to wonder if ancestral
crested terns had more extravagant crests. Intuitively, most of us probably
think of sexual selection leading to a larger ornament over time, but
crested terns have been around for a long time (at least four million
years), plenty long enough for an ornament to evolutionarily "go out of
style".

MtDNA evidence from 2005 indicates that Elegant and Sandwich are indeed
sister species, but as you can see, Royal is also extremely closely related:

file:///C:/Users/THISON~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Bridge%2520et%2520al%25202005%2
520.pdf

Genetic divergences:

Sandwich - Elegant: 1.0%
Sandwich - Royal: 2.6%

I'm treading on thin ice here, but I also suspect that it is not necessarily
the most closely-related species that hybridize the most often.
Isolating mechanisms can break down if they lose their relevance through
isolation of populations in space or time. Then, when secondary contacts
occurs, all bets are off! Consider Glaucous-winged and Western Gulls, which
according to current thinking are about as distantly-related as large
white-headed gulls can get, yet they have the most impressive hybrid zone.

It is unclear whether the black cap common to jaegers and terns is an
ancestral feature or the result of convergent evolution. Either way, it is
clearly an important feature for these birds reproductively, since it
generally occurs in breeding adults. It is easy to see how an ornament like
a crest could evolve or disappear relatively rapidly due to sexual
selection. Perhaps Elegant is the only tern retaining a lengthy crest, but
because the other species lost it recently, it can still be expressed in
hybrids. Much speculation, yes, but none of it harder to swallow than
Elegants making it to Europe...

PS. in my previous post, I only meant to refer to the older birds on the
surfbirds site as not fitting my expectations of Elegant; the juveniles look
fine for Elegant, although I wouldn't swear that is what they are.

Tristan McKee
Arcata, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


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Subject: Tern hybrids
From: Christopher Hill <Chill AT COASTAL.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 06:39:02 -0500
As it happens, this week I've been reading my way through "Terns" by David 
Cabot and Ian Nisbet. The book has a focus on terns of Britain and Ireland, but 
there's an awful lot in there, including about "our" terns, as Ian Nisbet 
probably knows more about terns than anyone who ever lived, and he did decades 
of fieldwork in Massachusetts. Too bad I have not yet gotten his North American 
seabirds book, but here's a bit on hybridisation: (note that he uses recent 
genetic studies to split out Cabot's Tern (North American Sandwich plus 
Cayenne) from Sandwich, which he limits to old world Sandwich terns): 


"Hybridisation has been recorded most frequently between roseate and common 
terns, but cases have also been reported involving roseate x arctic, roseate x 
Forster's, Arctic x common, lesser crested x Sandwich, Cabots x elegant, fairy 
x little, and white-winged x black terns." 


I know that common x roseate hybrids are fertile and backcrosses have been 
documented. 


Royal x Cabots may be beyond the scope of the book, since both are N. Am. 
species, or maybe despite nesting cheek to jowl, they haven't yet been 
documented? I guess I need to get that other book and report back. 


C

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...
From: Tristan McKee <atmckee AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 00:48:01 -0800
Great thread! The unlocking of traits unexpressed in pure populations
through hybridization is an amazing subject, distressing though it may be
from an identification perspective. The most common examples I come across
are of unlocked ancestral traits; I would be interested in learning of
other pathways if they have been studied. I am beginning to wonder if
ancestral crested terns had more extravagant crests. Intuitively, most of
us probably think of sexual selection leading to a larger ornament over
time, but crested terns have been around for a long time (at least four
million years), plenty long enough for an ornament to evolutionarily "go
out of style".

MtDNA evidence from 2005 indicates that Elegant and Sandwich are indeed
sister species, but as you can see, Royal is also extremely closely related:


file:///C:/Users/THISON~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Bridge%2520et%2520al%25202005%2520.pdf 


Genetic divergences:

Sandwich - Elegant: 1.0%
Sandwich - Royal: 2.6%

I'm treading on thin ice here, but I also suspect that it is not
necessarily the most closely-related species that hybridize the most often.
Isolating mechanisms can break down if they lose their relevance through
isolation of populations in space or time. Then, when secondary contacts
occurs, all bets are off! Consider Glaucous-winged and Western Gulls, which
according to current thinking are about as distantly-related as large
white-headed gulls can get, yet they have the most impressive hybrid zone.

It is unclear whether the black cap common to jaegers and terns is an
ancestral feature or the result of convergent evolution. Either way, it is
clearly an important feature for these birds reproductively, since it
generally occurs in breeding adults. It is easy to see how an ornament like
a crest could evolve or disappear relatively rapidly due to sexual
selection. Perhaps Elegant is the only tern retaining a lengthy crest, but
because the other species lost it recently, it can still be expressed in
hybrids. Much speculation, yes, but none of it harder to swallow than
Elegants making it to Europe...

PS. in my previous post, I only meant to refer to the older birds on the
surfbirds site as not fitting my expectations of Elegant; the juveniles
look fine for Elegant, although I wouldn't swear that is what they are.

Tristan McKee
Arcata, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 02:41:53 -0500
Tristan;
 
Unfortunately it is getting quite late so I will limit my reply to your one 
 remark today to make one thing straight and avoid missunderstanding. 
Nowhere in my post I said that SATA X ROYT hybrid would be unlikely infertile. 

I, you, all  of us, simply do not know. There are none known hybrids. To go 
even further we  do not know if such hybrid would survive the embryonic 
stage. I used word unlikely to F2 generation (perhaps did that not precisely, 

sorry for that) that  will look like ELTE after backcross between F1 parent 
(supposedly looking like  ROYT) with other parent from one of these two 
species (it was not said which one is considered, perhaps another F1, and that 

is unlikely to happen in real life  even if possible in theory).  I noticed 
that often we like to use extremes;  from an old idea  that if offspring is 
fertile both parents must belong to  one species to stretching that 
everything can inbreed successfully. It seems that evolutionary process is 
somewhere 

between. Well we still do not know  definition of what really species is 
and answers to this question are different,  depends on who you ask. 
 
BTW, yellow bill, and legs, in juvenile SATE are quite common. At least  
here in Texas. But color is changing fast. .
 
And thanks for interesting info and thoughts.
 
Cheers,
 
Mark



In a message dated 11/3/2014 12:05:05 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
atmckee AT GMAIL.COM writes:

When it  comes to outrageous vagrants, I like things that sound crazy, and I
like  the way Alvaro is thinking. The Texas bird does not look right,
especially  the bill shape. Nearly all the photos of vagrants on the
following site  give me the same gut feeling; the only two vagrants that fit
my  expectations of Elegant are the Argentina and Arizona  birds:

http://www.surfbirds.com/gallery/search2.php?species=Elegant%20Tern

Here  is some relevant older discussion about the species'  movements:

http://www.oocities.org/steve_extra/elegant_main2.html

The  extreme rarity of this species inland in California is discussed; I
would  only note that these birds have no problem heading 20-30 miles
offshore to  forage, so they are not so strongly opposed to deep waters as,
say, Pelagic  Cormorants and Ring-billed Gulls here.

Also  relevant:

http://www.sibleyguides.com/2007/08/sandwich-tern-bill-color-of-juveniles/

The  thing that is holding me up most is understanding how low it takes  for
Elegant Terns to reach full adult bill shape. Many of these birds  have
bills that look fine for juvenile Elegants, but they are all older  birds.
Looking through Elegants this summer, I developed an  instinctive
dichotomous filter: short-billed birds had juvenal plumage;  birds with
typical Elegant bill shape did not; my search image was for  anything that
did not fall into either category (i.e., a potential Lesser  Crested or
Cayenne Tern). Needless to say, this activity did not result in  many
adrenalin rushes...

I could find no reference to Royal x  Sandwich hybrids but agree that they
would likely be lost in the extremely  complicated mix of crested tern
populations around the world. I did see in  BNA that SE South American and W
African Royals are smaller, more slender,  and thinner-billed, with a duller
bill color, perhaps making hybridization  with Sandwich Terns in these areas
a bit less "crazy".

Regarding  Mark's query that just came in as I was writing, that is not at
all how I  interpreted Alvaro's suggestion. We are only looking at a handful
of  traits. It is easy to imagine that F1 hybrids could be  phenotypically
similar to Royal with regards to those few traits.  Furthermore, the
assumption that bird hybrids are unlikely to be fertile  simply does not
reflect reality. Interspecific gene flow is an adaptive  advantage for many
bird species, and we need to depart from our notions of  hybridization that
are based on animal husbandry.


Tristan  McKee
Arcata, CA

Archives:  http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 22:02:09 -0800
Mark, 

 

 Ducks are not terns, terns are likely more like gulls. So I appreciate what 
you are saying about intermediacy in characters. But hybrid ducks often pop out 
traits not present in either parent, such as Baikal Teal like head patterns. It 
all depends on the genetics of the characters. They can be on/off type states, 
as in Golden-winged x Blue-winged hybrids, with mixed characters to make things 
interesting. But they can be situations where a character is present in the 
genes, but never expressed in pure populations. Yet these can be unlocked by 
hybrid combinations, as in the ducks. I am no geneticist (not even close), just 
trying to keep an open mind, as all sorts of things are possible. I would like 
some empirical data on what hybrids look like between Royal x Sandwich, I think 
this info would be important. But it is interesting that you know of no records 
of hybrids, which seems odd as in gulls hybrids between much less closely 
related species are found. The reason may be that not enough folks are looking 
at terns carefully, and that hybrids may be very difficult to spot? Not sure. 


 

Alvaro 

 

Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com

 

From: MBB22222 AT aol.com [mailto:MBB22222 AT aol.com] 
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 8:54 PM
To: chucao AT coastside.net; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually 
miside... 


 

I am not aware of any record of ROYT X SATE attempted or successful breeding. 
Would love to know if there was any. It seems that you suggest a possibility 
that (in simplified form) all ROYT genes are dominant and SATE genes are 
recessive so they will produce F1 as ROYT phenotype (plumage traits in this 
case). Next step , assuming that offspring is fertile (ROYT and SATE are not 
close related; SATE and ELTE are) they will produce ELTE phenotype. Sort of 
unlikely. We will deal rather with combination of mixed traits; some from ROYT 
some from SATE. Again how they could produce a new trait, for example a long 
crest, that both species lack? 


 

Cheers,

 

Mark

 

In a message dated 11/2/2014 10:06:18 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
chucao AT coastside.net  writes: 


Not sure, but the question of what they look like still remains. Are there any 
known hybrids between the two? Are there known hybrid pairs in colonies? Maybe 
F1 birds don’t look very distinctive, maybe rather Royal Tern like and they 
go undetected, and these are the F2 birds that we key in on? Throwing out ideas 
as food for discussion. We can dance around the logic of what they should look 
like, but the question is do we know what they look like – are there known 
hybrids? 


 On the other hand, Elegant Tern is highly migratory, nearly as much as 
Franklin’s Gull, and we know they wind up all over the place so maybe it goes 
without saying that Elegant Tern should wind up all over the place too? Their 
population is much less than Franklin’s Gull, and they do not have a 
migration pattern that crosses from the Atlantic watershed to the Pacific, but 
still they do go a long distance, and getting lost and messed up there in the 
narrow parts of Central America certainly seems possible. Apparently European 
breeding Red-necked Phalaropes cross to the Pacific about here, so why not? 


 

Alvaro  

 

Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com  

www.alvarosadventures.com  

 

From: MBB22222 AT aol.com   [mailto:MBB22222 AT aol.com] 
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:58 PM
To: chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET  ; 
BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU  

Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually 
miside... 


 

Alvaro,

 

I fully agree with the bill case (droop; in fact I was thinking about similar 
question) but have a problem with ROYT X SATE - what about long crest? BTW I 
was thinking about posting the examples of some tern winter heads to find out 
if somebody recorded even more white ones, molting all black feathers into all 
white. At this moment I have a GBTE with practically all white head and SATE 
with only very few black feathers. Why hybrids would be so small, ELTE size? 
Have ELTE face pattern? Etc. 


 

Cheers,

 

Mark

 

In a message dated 11/2/2014 9:41:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET  writes: 


All

 I would be interested in seeing what Royal x Sandwich tern hybrids look like. 
They must exist, and my guess is that they may be more likely to have non-black 
bill colors, but this is a gut feeling. Some reported Elegant Terns from the 
Atlantic look pretty good, others not so much. Often the part that looks odd to 
me is that the bills are thicker than typical, and shorter than typical, with 
less of the droop that is the norm. I do wonder if these are hybrids, but 
rather than involving Elegant, they may in fact be Royal x Sandwich. I know it 
sounds crazy, but trying to think outside the box on what can explain the fact 
that many Elegant type things out east are not quite right. 


Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com  
www.alvarosadventures.com  

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik 

Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:15 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU  
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually 
misidentified? 


ELTE in Texas is considered as a mega rarity. Prior to 2013 there were only 3 
documented records (found in 1889, 1985 and 2001) - one in west Texas and two 
on Texas shore. I found one ELTE on September 14, 2013 on Upper Texas Coast 
(accepted record) and thought that this was one in my lifetime case in Texas. 
Now, one year and one and half month later, on November 1, 2014, I found 
another one in the same area (very close to where first was found). I am 
confident with my ID (but open to discussion) so my question is about how often 
this species is really showing up in Texas and other Gulf/Atlantic states. 


I often see that some birders have problems with Caspian-Royal ID (and not only 
but this is another can of worms; unfortunately some guides are skipping 
plumages or not illustrating all plumages correctly) but Royal-Elegant is 
rather more challenging especially for people who are not living near the 

shore.   The Royal Tern is a common species that has no ‘value’ for ticks 
on chaser’s lists so, I am sure, not many would spend time going trough 
thousands of these to be sure nothing is missed. Most birders here in Texas go 
out more often only during migration time (weather is another factor, nobody 
likes to be fried in summer - get wet or be chilled in winter). Even then 
majority is either chasing warblers in city parks or wait for a signal that 
rarity was found and everybody goes there to see it; most likely somebody will 
already be there to point the bird. I am fully aware that looking at large ROYT 
flock from far away and trying to find one ELTE is sort of trying to find a 
needle in a haystack. 


True, for many years I am studying a few tern species and recently (started 
about couple years ago) I designated some extra time for ROYT as well. To see 
that something is not a ROYT is almost instinctive now. But still my 

problem is: is it really a coincidence, luck or whatever that one person   
found two ELTE in two consecutive years? In the same area? About the same time 
of year? BTW the record from 2001 is also from a near area and tern was found 
during the first part of November as well. Coincidence again? 


Here are a few photos (I took some video clips as well, no time right now to 
process) that show the last find. This individual sports all important traits 
of its species. 


1) long, thin bill, red-orange at the base and yellowish at the tip; long 
crest, crown with more black feathers than ROYT in basic plumage; black 
feathers around the eyes; pink flush (but very faint and practically not 
visible in low res photos); and partially reddish/orange legs and feet (Monroe, 
1956, estimated that about 90% of ELTE population he studied had completely 
black legs and about 10 % either completely or partially orange). 


http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083847

2) Size comparison: slightly larger than SATE and much smaller than  ROYT

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083844

This individual, if re-found, will be easy to identified because of a very 
unique leg color pattern. At least in the near future. 


http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083849

And just a few other photos.
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083853
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083846
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083856
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083859

Also when looking at eBird historical data it seems to be quite possible that 
some (question how many) ELTE can enter Gulf or travel north along Atlantic 
shore from Central America. Interestedly there is no records in eBird database 
from Florida’s Atlantic shore, all are only from the Gulf side. 

Lack of records from Atlantic shore in Florida, South and North Carolina and 
Virginia might suggests that ELTE are traveling fast along the shore line 
without longer stops before reaching shore in northern states or they stay 
traveling over open waters (seems less probable as there are continuous records 
along the Pacific shore). 


http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083843

Cheers,

Mark
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


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Subject: Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...
From: Tristan McKee <atmckee AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 22:02:31 -0800
When it comes to outrageous vagrants, I like things that sound crazy, and I
like the way Alvaro is thinking. The Texas bird does not look right,
especially the bill shape. Nearly all the photos of vagrants on the
following site give me the same gut feeling; the only two vagrants that fit
my expectations of Elegant are the Argentina and Arizona birds:

http://www.surfbirds.com/gallery/search2.php?species=Elegant%20Tern

Here is some relevant older discussion about the species' movements:

http://www.oocities.org/steve_extra/elegant_main2.html

The extreme rarity of this species inland in California is discussed; I
would only note that these birds have no problem heading 20-30 miles
offshore to forage, so they are not so strongly opposed to deep waters as,
say, Pelagic Cormorants and Ring-billed Gulls here.

Also relevant:

http://www.sibleyguides.com/2007/08/sandwich-tern-bill-color-of-juveniles/

The thing that is holding me up most is understanding how low it takes for
Elegant Terns to reach full adult bill shape. Many of these birds have
bills that look fine for juvenile Elegants, but they are all older birds.
Looking through Elegants this summer, I developed an instinctive
dichotomous filter: short-billed birds had juvenal plumage; birds with
typical Elegant bill shape did not; my search image was for anything that
did not fall into either category (i.e., a potential Lesser Crested or
Cayenne Tern). Needless to say, this activity did not result in many
adrenalin rushes...

I could find no reference to Royal x Sandwich hybrids but agree that they
would likely be lost in the extremely complicated mix of crested tern
populations around the world. I did see in BNA that SE South American and W
African Royals are smaller, more slender, and thinner-billed, with a duller
bill color, perhaps making hybridization with Sandwich Terns in these areas
a bit less "crazy".

Regarding Mark's query that just came in as I was writing, that is not at
all how I interpreted Alvaro's suggestion. We are only looking at a handful
of traits. It is easy to imagine that F1 hybrids could be phenotypically
similar to Royal with regards to those few traits. Furthermore, the
assumption that bird hybrids are unlikely to be fertile simply does not
reflect reality. Interspecific gene flow is an adaptive advantage for many
bird species, and we need to depart from our notions of hybridization that
are based on animal husbandry.


Tristan McKee
Arcata, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 22:12:35 -0800
Dan et al. 

 That is a cool looking bird, looks pretty similar to a South American Cayenne 
Tern to me, especially with that thick bill and the dark base around the 
nostril. That doesn't mean it isn't a hybrid of course. 


Here are some South American Cayenne's from Brazil, the southern population is 
the one that tends to be thick billed. 

http://www.wikiaves.com.br/301729&t=s&s=10381

cheers, 

Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Dan Irizarry 

Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 8:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually 
misidentified? 


I'll have to find the pictures but back in 02 an elegant tern male mated with a 
female Sandwich tern (copulation was caught in a photo by Lyn Atherton I, I 
believe. Its offspring looked very much like a Cayenne Tern. I think photos 
were recently posted to the BRDBRAIN LISTSERV. 


These video clips of an Elegant x Sandwich hybrid (identified by Lyn Atherton 
and Cameron Cox) found last week in Florida were posted to brdbrains as well: 


ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgKDmJOPImE&list=UUxPduJvYi6mM_3qAY-H9oDA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y95pXk9-8P8&list=UUxPduJvYi6mM_3qAY-H9oDA

Dan Irizarry 
Ruskin, FL

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 2, 2014, at 10:39 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo  wrote:
> 
> All
> 
> I would be interested in seeing what Royal x Sandwich tern hybrids look like. 
They must exist, and my guess is that they may be more likely to have non-black 
bill colors, but this is a gut feeling. Some reported Elegant Terns from the 
Atlantic look pretty good, others not so much. Often the part that looks odd to 
me is that the bills are thicker than typical, and shorter than typical, with 
less of the droop that is the norm. I do wonder if these are hybrids, but 
rather than involving Elegant, they may in fact be Royal x Sandwich. I know it 
sounds crazy, but trying to think outside the box on what can explain the fact 
that many Elegant type things out east are not quite right. 

> 
> Alvaro 
> 
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik 

> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:15 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually 
misidentified? 

> 
> ELTE in Texas is considered as a mega rarity. Prior to 2013 there were only 3 
documented records (found in 1889, 1985 and 2001) - one in west Texas and two 
on Texas shore. I found one ELTE on September 14, 2013 on Upper Texas Coast 
(accepted record) and thought that this was one in my lifetime case in Texas. 
Now, one year and one and half month later, on November 1, 2014, I found 
another one in the same area (very close to where first was found). I am 
confident with my ID (but open to discussion) so my question is about how often 
this species is really showing up in Texas and other Gulf/Atlantic states. 

> 
> I often see that some birders have problems with Caspian-Royal ID (and not 
only but this is another can of worms; unfortunately some guides are skipping 
plumages or not illustrating all plumages correctly) but Royal-Elegant is 
rather more challenging especially for people who are not living near the 

> shore. The Royal Tern is a common species that has no ‘value’ for ticks 

> on chaser’s lists so, I am sure, not many would spend time going trough 
thousands of these to be sure nothing is missed. Most birders here in Texas go 
out more often only during migration time (weather is another factor, nobody 
likes to be fried in summer - get wet or be chilled in winter). Even then 
majority is either chasing warblers in city parks or wait for a signal that 
rarity was found and everybody goes there to see it; most likely somebody will 
already be there to point the bird. I am fully aware that looking at large ROYT 
flock from far away and trying to find one ELTE is sort of trying to find a 
needle in a haystack. 

> 
> True, for many years I am studying a few tern species and recently (started 
about couple years ago) I designated some extra time for ROYT as well. To see 
that something is not a ROYT is almost instinctive now. But still my 

> problem is: is it really a coincidence, luck or whatever that one person   
> found two ELTE in two consecutive years? In the same area? About the same 
time of year? BTW the record from 2001 is also from a near area and tern was 
found during the first part of November as well. Coincidence again? 

> 
> Here are a few photos (I took some video clips as well, no time right now to 
process) that show the last find. This individual sports all important traits 
of its species. 

> 
> 1) long, thin bill, red-orange at the base and yellowish at the tip; long 
crest, crown with more black feathers than ROYT in basic plumage; black 
feathers around the eyes; pink flush (but very faint and practically not 
visible in low res photos); and partially reddish/orange legs and feet (Monroe, 
1956, estimated that about 90% of ELTE population he studied had completely 
black legs and about 10 % either completely or partially orange). 

> 
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083847
> 
> 2) Size comparison: slightly larger than SATE and much smaller than  ROYT
> 
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083844
> 
> This individual, if re-found, will be easy to identified because of a very 
unique leg color pattern. At least in the near future. 

> 
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083849
> 
> And just a few other photos.
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083853
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083846
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083856
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083859
> 
> Also when looking at eBird historical data it seems to be quite possible that 
some (question how many) ELTE can enter Gulf or travel north along Atlantic 
shore from Central America. Interestedly there is no records in eBird database 
from Florida’s Atlantic shore, all are only from the Gulf side. 

> Lack of records from Atlantic shore in Florida, South and North Carolina and 
Virginia might suggests that ELTE are traveling fast along the shore line 
without longer stops before reaching shore in northern states or they stay 
traveling over open waters (seems less probable as there are continuous records 
along the Pacific shore). 

> 
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083843
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mark
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> 
> 
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

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Subject: Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 23:53:51 -0500
I am not aware of any record of ROYT X SATE attempted or successful  
breeding. Would love to know if there was any. It seems that you suggest a  
possibility that (in simplified form) all ROYT genes are dominant and SATE 
genes 

are recessive so they will produce F1 as ROYT phenotype  (plumage traits in  
this case).  Next step , assuming that offspring is fertile (ROYT and SATE  
are not close related; SATE and ELTE are) they will produce ELTE  
phenotype. Sort of unlikely. We will deal rather with combination of mixed 
traits; 

some from ROYT some from SATE. Again how they could produce a new  trait, 
for example a long crest, that both species lack? 
 
Cheers,
 
Mark
 
 
In a message dated 11/2/2014 10:06:18 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
chucao AT coastside.net writes:

 
Not  sure, but the question of what they look like still remains. Are there 
any  known hybrids between the two? Are there known hybrid pairs in 
colonies? Maybe F1 birds don’t look very distinctive, maybe rather Royal Tern 
like 

and they go  undetected, and these are the F2 birds that we key in on? 
Throwing out ideas  as food for discussion. We can dance around the logic of 
what they should look like, but the question is do we know what they look like 

– are there known  hybrids?  
On  the other hand, Elegant Tern is highly migratory, nearly as much as 
Franklin’s Gull, and we know they wind up all over the place so maybe it goes 

without  saying that Elegant Tern should wind up all over the place too? 
Their  population is much less than Franklin’s Gull, and they do not have a 
migration pattern that crosses from the Atlantic watershed to the Pacific, but 

still  they do go a long distance, and getting lost and messed up there in 
the narrow  parts of Central America certainly seems possible. Apparently 
European  breeding Red-necked Phalaropes cross to the Pacific about here, so 
why not?   
Alvaro   
 
Alvaro  Jaramillo 
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com 
www.alvarosadventures.com
 
 
From: MBB22222 AT aol.com  [mailto:MBB22222 AT aol.com] 
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:58  PM
To: chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET;  BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a  true rarity in Texas or it is 
usually  miside...

 
Alvaro,
 

 
I fully  agree with the bill case (droop; in fact I was thinking about 
similar question) but have a problem with ROYT X SATE - what about long crest? 

BTW I  was thinking about posting the examples of some tern winter heads to 
find out  if somebody recorded even more white ones, molting all black 
feathers into all white. At this moment I have a GBTE with practically all 
white 

head and SATE  with only very few black feathers.  Why hybrids would be so 
small, ELTE  size? Have ELTE face pattern? Etc.
 

 
Cheers,
 

 
Mark
 

 
 
In a  message dated 11/2/2014 9:41:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
_chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET_ (mailto:chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET)   writes:

All

I would be interested in seeing what Royal x Sandwich tern hybrids look  
like. They must exist, and my guess is that they may be more likely to have  
non-black bill colors, but this is a gut feeling. Some reported Elegant  
Terns from the Atlantic look pretty good, others not so much. Often the part  
that looks odd to me is that the bills are thicker than typical, and shorter  
than typical, with less of the droop that is the norm. I do wonder if these  
are hybrids, but rather than involving Elegant, they may in fact be Royal x 
 Sandwich. I know it sounds crazy, but trying to think outside the box on  
what can explain the fact that many Elegant type things out east are not  
quite right. 

Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
_alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com_ (mailto:alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com) 
_www.alvarosadventures.com_ (http://www.alvarosadventures.com/) 

-----Original  Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification  
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU]  On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:15  PM
To: _BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU_ (mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU) 
Subject:  [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is 
usually  misidentified?

ELTE in Texas is considered as a mega rarity.   Prior to 2013 there  were 
only 3 documented records (found in 1889,  1985 and 2001) - one in west  
Texas and two on Texas shore. I found one  ELTE on September 14, 2013 on Upper 
Texas Coast (accepted record) and  thought that this was one in my lifetime 
case  in Texas.  Now, one  year and one and half month later, on November 1, 
2014,  I found  another one in the same area (very close to where first was 
found). I  am  confident with my ID (but open to discussion) so my question 
is  about how often  this species is really showing up in Texas and other  
Gulf/Atlantic states. 

I often see that some birders have problems  with Caspian-Royal ID (and not 
only but this is another can of worms;  unfortunately some guides are 
skipping plumages or not illustrating all plumages correctly) but Royal-Elegant 

is rather  more challenging  especially for people who are not living near 
the 
shore.   The  Royal Tern is a common species that has no ‘value’ for ticks 
on  chaser’s  lists so, I am sure, not many would spend time going trough  
thousands of these  to be sure nothing is missed. Most birders here in  
Texas go out more often only during migration time (weather is another factor, 

nobody likes to be fried in  summer - get wet or be chilled in  winter). 
Even then majority is either chasing  warblers in city parks  or wait for a 
signal that rarity was found and everybody  goes there to  see it; most likely 
somebody will already be there to point the  bird.  I am fully aware that 
looking at large ROYT flock from far away and  trying  to find one ELTE is 
sort of trying to find a needle in a  haystack. 

True, for many years I am studying a few tern species and  recently 
(started about couple years ago) I designated some extra time for ROYT as well. 

To  see that something is not a ROYT is  almost  instinctive now. But still 
my  
problem is: is it  really a coincidence, luck or whatever that one person   
found  two ELTE in two consecutive years? In the same area? About the same  
time  of year? BTW the record from 2001 is also from a near area and  tern 
was found  during the first part of  November as well.   Coincidence again? 

Here are a few photos (I took some video clips as  well, no time right now 
to process) that show the last find. This individual  sports all important 
traits  of its species. 

1) long, thin  bill, red-orange at the base and yellowish at the tip; long 
crest, crown  with more black feathers than ROYT in basic plumage; black 
feathers   around the eyes; pink flush (but very faint and practically not 
visible in  low  res photos);  and partially reddish/orange legs and feet  
(Monroe, 1956,  estimated that about 90% of ELTE population he studied  had 
completely black legs  and about 10 % either completely or  partially orange). 

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083847

2)  Size comparison: slightly larger than SATE and much smaller than   ROYT

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083844

This  individual, if re-found,  will be easy to identified because of a 
very  unique leg color pattern.  At least in the near future. 

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083849

And  just a few other photos.
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083853
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083846
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083856
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083859

Also  when looking at eBird historical data it seems to be quite possible 
that  some (question how many) ELTE can enter Gulf or travel north along  
Atlantic  shore from Central America. Interestedly there is no records  in 
eBird database from Florida’s Atlantic shore, all are only from the Gulf 
side. 

 
Lack of  records from Atlantic shore in Florida,  South and North Carolina 
and Virginia  might suggests that ELTE are  traveling fast along the shore 
line without longer  stops before  reaching shore in northern states or they 
stay traveling over open   waters (seems less probable as there are 
continuous records along the  Pacific  shore). 

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083843

Cheers,

Mark
Archives:  http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


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Subject: Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified?
From: Dan Irizarry <rdirizarry AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 23:31:14 -0500
I'll have to find the pictures but back in 02 an elegant tern male mated with a 
female Sandwich tern (copulation was caught in a photo by Lyn Atherton I, I 
believe. Its offspring looked very much like a Cayenne Tern. I think photos 
were recently posted to the BRDBRAIN LISTSERV. 


These video clips of an Elegant x Sandwich hybrid (identified by Lyn Atherton 
and Cameron Cox) found last week in Florida were posted to brdbrains as well: 


ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgKDmJOPImE&list=UUxPduJvYi6mM_3qAY-H9oDA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y95pXk9-8P8&list=UUxPduJvYi6mM_3qAY-H9oDA

Dan Irizarry 
Ruskin, FL

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 2, 2014, at 10:39 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo  wrote:
> 
> All
> 
> I would be interested in seeing what Royal x Sandwich tern hybrids look like. 
They must exist, and my guess is that they may be more likely to have non-black 
bill colors, but this is a gut feeling. Some reported Elegant Terns from the 
Atlantic look pretty good, others not so much. Often the part that looks odd to 
me is that the bills are thicker than typical, and shorter than typical, with 
less of the droop that is the norm. I do wonder if these are hybrids, but 
rather than involving Elegant, they may in fact be Royal x Sandwich. I know it 
sounds crazy, but trying to think outside the box on what can explain the fact 
that many Elegant type things out east are not quite right. 

> 
> Alvaro 
> 
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik 

> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:15 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually 
misidentified? 

> 
> ELTE in Texas is considered as a mega rarity. Prior to 2013 there were only 3 
documented records (found in 1889, 1985 and 2001) - one in west Texas and two 
on Texas shore. I found one ELTE on September 14, 2013 on Upper Texas Coast 
(accepted record) and thought that this was one in my lifetime case in Texas. 
Now, one year and one and half month later, on November 1, 2014, I found 
another one in the same area (very close to where first was found). I am 
confident with my ID (but open to discussion) so my question is about how often 
this species is really showing up in Texas and other Gulf/Atlantic states. 

> 
> I often see that some birders have problems with Caspian-Royal ID (and not 
only but this is another can of worms; unfortunately some guides are skipping 
plumages or not illustrating all plumages correctly) but Royal-Elegant is 
rather more challenging especially for people who are not living near the 

> shore. The Royal Tern is a common species that has no ‘value’ for ticks 

> on chaser’s lists so, I am sure, not many would spend time going trough 
thousands of these to be sure nothing is missed. Most birders here in Texas go 
out more often only during migration time (weather is another factor, nobody 
likes to be fried in summer - get wet or be chilled in winter). Even then 
majority is either chasing warblers in city parks or wait for a signal that 
rarity was found and everybody goes there to see it; most likely somebody will 
already be there to point the bird. I am fully aware that looking at large ROYT 
flock from far away and trying to find one ELTE is sort of trying to find a 
needle in a haystack. 

> 
> True, for many years I am studying a few tern species and recently (started 
about couple years ago) I designated some extra time for ROYT as well. To see 
that something is not a ROYT is almost instinctive now. But still my 

> problem is: is it really a coincidence, luck or whatever that one person   
> found two ELTE in two consecutive years? In the same area? About the same 
time of year? BTW the record from 2001 is also from a near area and tern was 
found during the first part of November as well. Coincidence again? 

> 
> Here are a few photos (I took some video clips as well, no time right now to 
process) that show the last find. This individual sports all important traits 
of its species. 

> 
> 1) long, thin bill, red-orange at the base and yellowish at the tip; long 
crest, crown with more black feathers than ROYT in basic plumage; black 
feathers around the eyes; pink flush (but very faint and practically not 
visible in low res photos); and partially reddish/orange legs and feet (Monroe, 
1956, estimated that about 90% of ELTE population he studied had completely 
black legs and about 10 % either completely or partially orange). 

> 
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083847
> 
> 2) Size comparison: slightly larger than SATE and much smaller than  ROYT
> 
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083844
> 
> This individual, if re-found, will be easy to identified because of a very 
unique leg color pattern. At least in the near future. 

> 
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083849
> 
> And just a few other photos.
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083853
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083846
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083856
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083859
> 
> Also when looking at eBird historical data it seems to be quite possible that 
some (question how many) ELTE can enter Gulf or travel north along Atlantic 
shore from Central America. Interestedly there is no records in eBird database 
from Florida’s Atlantic shore, all are only from the Gulf side. 

> Lack of records from Atlantic shore in Florida, South and North Carolina and 
Virginia might suggests that ELTE are traveling fast along the shore line 
without longer stops before reaching shore in northern states or they stay 
traveling over open waters (seems less probable as there are continuous records 
along the Pacific shore). 

> 
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083843
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mark
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8496 - Release Date: 11/02/14
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8494 - Release Date: 11/01/14
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified?
From: julian hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 20:24:58 -0800
Alvaro,

Are there any particular individual Elegant Tern records in the east that you 
feel look "off"? 


I ask because this topic brings up a similar thorny issue in Europe. Elegant 
Terns are very rare along the mid-Atlantic states as you know, and this has 
been an issue across the pond too, where Elegant Terns have been recorded more 
often than they apparently should be for a species that doesn't show a regular 
pattern of occurrence in the east. 


Hybrid Lesser-crested Tern x Sandwich Terns have been documented in Europe and 
are thought to be the pitfall whenever a putative Elegant Tern is discovered, 
but some birds seemingly fit the bill (pun intended) and appear to be pure 
Elegants. 


It would be interesting if hybrids between the two pairings of Lesser crested 
Tern x Sandwich Tern in Europe and Sandwich Tern x Royal Tern in North America 
produce birds that look so similar to Elegant Tern. 


It would be cool to see what a Royal x Sandwich Tern would look like..:)  

Julian Hough 
New Haven, CT 06519 
www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com
 

________________________________
 From: Alvaro Jaramillo 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually 
misidentified? 

  

All

 I would be interested in seeing what Royal x Sandwich tern hybrids look like. 
They must exist, and my guess is that they may be more likely to have non-black 
bill colors, but this is a gut feeling. Some reported Elegant Terns from the 
Atlantic look pretty good, others not so much. Often the part that looks odd to 
me is that the bills are thicker than typical, and shorter than typical, with 
less of the droop that is the norm. I do wonder if these are hybrids, but 
rather than involving Elegant, they may in fact be Royal x Sandwich. I know it 
sounds crazy, but trying to think outside the box on what can explain the fact 
that many Elegant type things out east are not quite right. 


Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik 

Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:15 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually 
misidentified? 


ELTE in Texas is considered as a mega rarity. Prior to 2013 there were only 3 
documented records (found in 1889, 1985 and 2001) - one in west Texas and two 
on Texas shore. I found one ELTE on September 14, 2013 on Upper Texas Coast 
(accepted record) and thought that this was one in my lifetime case in Texas. 
Now, one year and one and half month later, on November 1, 2014, I found 
another one in the same area (very close to where first was found). I am 
confident with my ID (but open to discussion) so my question is about how often 
this species is really showing up in Texas and other Gulf/Atlantic states. 


I often see that some birders have problems with Caspian-Royal ID (and not only 
but this is another can of worms; unfortunately some guides are skipping 
plumages or not illustrating all plumages correctly) but Royal-Elegant is 
rather more challenging especially for people who are not living near the 

shore.   The Royal Tern is a common species that has no ‘value’ for ticks 
on chaser’s lists so, I am sure, not many would spend time going trough 
thousands of these to be sure nothing is missed. Most birders here in Texas go 
out more often only during migration time (weather is another factor, nobody 
likes to be fried in summer - get wet or be chilled in winter). Even then 
majority is either chasing warblers in city parks or wait for a signal that 
rarity was found and everybody goes there to see it; most likely somebody will 
already be there to point the bird. I am fully aware that looking at large ROYT 
flock from far away and trying to find one ELTE is sort of trying to find a 
needle in a haystack. 


True, for many years I am studying a few tern species and recently (started 
about couple years ago) I designated some extra time for ROYT as well. To see 
that something is not a ROYT is almost instinctive now. But still my 

problem is: is it really a coincidence, luck or whatever that one person  
found two ELTE in two consecutive years? In the same area? About the same time 
of year? BTW the record from 2001 is also from a near area and tern was found 
during the first part of November as well. Coincidence again? 


Here are a few photos (I took some video clips as well, no time right now to 
process) that show the last find. This individual sports all important traits 
of its species. 


1) long, thin bill, red-orange at the base and yellowish at the tip; long 
crest, crown with more black feathers than ROYT in basic plumage; black 
feathers around the eyes; pink flush (but very faint and practically not 
visible in low res photos); and partially reddish/orange legs and feet (Monroe, 
1956, estimated that about 90% of ELTE population he studied had completely 
black legs and about 10 % either completely or partially orange). 


http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083847

2) Size comparison: slightly larger than SATE and much smaller than  ROYT

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083844

This individual, if re-found, will be easy to identified because of a very 
unique leg color pattern. At least in the near future. 


http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083849

And just a few other photos.
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083853
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083846
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083856
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083859

Also when looking at eBird historical data it seems to be quite possible that 
some (question how many) ELTE can enter Gulf or travel north along Atlantic 
shore from Central America. Interestedly there is no records in eBird database 
from Florida’s Atlantic shore, all are only from the Gulf side. 

Lack of records from Atlantic shore in Florida, South and North Carolina and 
Virginia might suggests that ELTE are traveling fast along the shore line 
without longer stops before reaching shore in northern states or they stay 
traveling over open waters (seems less probable as there are continuous records 
along the Pacific shore). 


http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083843

Cheers,

Mark
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


-----
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8496 - Release Date: 11/02/14


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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 20:06:14 -0800
Not sure, but the question of what they look like still remains. Are there any 
known hybrids between the two? Are there known hybrid pairs in colonies? Maybe 
F1 birds don’t look very distinctive, maybe rather Royal Tern like and they 
go undetected, and these are the F2 birds that we key in on? Throwing out ideas 
as food for discussion. We can dance around the logic of what they should look 
like, but the question is do we know what they look like – are there known 
hybrids? 


 On the other hand, Elegant Tern is highly migratory, nearly as much as 
Franklin’s Gull, and we know they wind up all over the place so maybe it goes 
without saying that Elegant Tern should wind up all over the place too? Their 
population is much less than Franklin’s Gull, and they do not have a 
migration pattern that crosses from the Atlantic watershed to the Pacific, but 
still they do go a long distance, and getting lost and messed up there in the 
narrow parts of Central America certainly seems possible. Apparently European 
breeding Red-necked Phalaropes cross to the Pacific about here, so why not? 


 

Alvaro  

 

Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com

 

From: MBB22222 AT aol.com [mailto:MBB22222 AT aol.com] 
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:58 PM
To: chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually 
miside... 


 

Alvaro,

 

I fully agree with the bill case (droop; in fact I was thinking about similar 
question) but have a problem with ROYT X SATE - what about long crest? BTW I 
was thinking about posting the examples of some tern winter heads to find out 
if somebody recorded even more white ones, molting all black feathers into all 
white. At this moment I have a GBTE with practically all white head and SATE 
with only very few black feathers. Why hybrids would be so small, ELTE size? 
Have ELTE face pattern? Etc. 


 

Cheers,

 

Mark

 

In a message dated 11/2/2014 9:41:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET  writes: 


All

 I would be interested in seeing what Royal x Sandwich tern hybrids look like. 
They must exist, and my guess is that they may be more likely to have non-black 
bill colors, but this is a gut feeling. Some reported Elegant Terns from the 
Atlantic look pretty good, others not so much. Often the part that looks odd to 
me is that the bills are thicker than typical, and shorter than typical, with 
less of the droop that is the norm. I do wonder if these are hybrids, but 
rather than involving Elegant, they may in fact be Royal x Sandwich. I know it 
sounds crazy, but trying to think outside the box on what can explain the fact 
that many Elegant type things out east are not quite right. 


Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com  
www.alvarosadventures.com  

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik 

Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:15 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU  
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually 
misidentified? 


ELTE in Texas is considered as a mega rarity. Prior to 2013 there were only 3 
documented records (found in 1889, 1985 and 2001) - one in west Texas and two 
on Texas shore. I found one ELTE on September 14, 2013 on Upper Texas Coast 
(accepted record) and thought that this was one in my lifetime case in Texas. 
Now, one year and one and half month later, on November 1, 2014, I found 
another one in the same area (very close to where first was found). I am 
confident with my ID (but open to discussion) so my question is about how often 
this species is really showing up in Texas and other Gulf/Atlantic states. 


I often see that some birders have problems with Caspian-Royal ID (and not only 
but this is another can of worms; unfortunately some guides are skipping 
plumages or not illustrating all plumages correctly) but Royal-Elegant is 
rather more challenging especially for people who are not living near the 

shore.   The Royal Tern is a common species that has no ‘value’ for ticks 
on chaser’s lists so, I am sure, not many would spend time going trough 
thousands of these to be sure nothing is missed. Most birders here in Texas go 
out more often only during migration time (weather is another factor, nobody 
likes to be fried in summer - get wet or be chilled in winter). Even then 
majority is either chasing warblers in city parks or wait for a signal that 
rarity was found and everybody goes there to see it; most likely somebody will 
already be there to point the bird. I am fully aware that looking at large ROYT 
flock from far away and trying to find one ELTE is sort of trying to find a 
needle in a haystack. 


True, for many years I am studying a few tern species and recently (started 
about couple years ago) I designated some extra time for ROYT as well. To see 
that something is not a ROYT is almost instinctive now. But still my 

problem is: is it really a coincidence, luck or whatever that one person   
found two ELTE in two consecutive years? In the same area? About the same time 
of year? BTW the record from 2001 is also from a near area and tern was found 
during the first part of November as well. Coincidence again? 


Here are a few photos (I took some video clips as well, no time right now to 
process) that show the last find. This individual sports all important traits 
of its species. 


1) long, thin bill, red-orange at the base and yellowish at the tip; long 
crest, crown with more black feathers than ROYT in basic plumage; black 
feathers around the eyes; pink flush (but very faint and practically not 
visible in low res photos); and partially reddish/orange legs and feet (Monroe, 
1956, estimated that about 90% of ELTE population he studied had completely 
black legs and about 10 % either completely or partially orange). 


http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083847

2) Size comparison: slightly larger than SATE and much smaller than  ROYT

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083844

This individual, if re-found, will be easy to identified because of a very 
unique leg color pattern. At least in the near future. 


http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083849

And just a few other photos.
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083853
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083846
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083856
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083859

Also when looking at eBird historical data it seems to be quite possible that 
some (question how many) ELTE can enter Gulf or travel north along Atlantic 
shore from Central America. Interestedly there is no records in eBird database 
from Florida’s Atlantic shore, all are only from the Gulf side. 

Lack of records from Atlantic shore in Florida, South and North Carolina and 
Virginia might suggests that ELTE are traveling fast along the shore line 
without longer stops before reaching shore in northern states or they stay 
traveling over open waters (seems less probable as there are continuous records 
along the Pacific shore). 


http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083843

Cheers,

Mark
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com  
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8496 - Release Date: 11/02/14


-----
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com  
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8494 - Release Date: 11/01/14

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

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Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 22:58:19 -0500
Alvaro,
 
I fully agree with the bill case (droop; in fact I was thinking about  
similar question) but have a problem with ROYT X SATE - what about long crest? 

BTW I was thinking about posting the examples of some tern winter heads to 
find  out if somebody recorded even more white ones, molting all black 
feathers into all white. At this moment I have a GBTE with practically all 
white 

head and SATE  with only very few black feathers.  Why hybrids would be so 
small, ELTE  size? Have ELTE face pattern? Etc.
 
Cheers,
 
Mark
 
 
In a message dated 11/2/2014 9:41:16 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET writes:

All

I would be interested in seeing what Royal  x Sandwich tern hybrids look 
like. They must exist, and my guess is that they  may be more likely to have 
non-black bill colors, but this is a gut feeling.  Some reported Elegant 
Terns from the Atlantic look pretty good, others not so  much. Often the part 
that looks odd to me is that the bills are thicker than  typical, and shorter 
than typical, with less of the droop that is the norm. I  do wonder if these 
are hybrids, but rather than involving Elegant, they may in  fact be Royal 
x Sandwich. I know it sounds crazy, but trying to think outside  the box on 
what can explain the fact that many Elegant type things out east  are not 
quite right. 

Alvaro 

Alvaro  Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original  Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification  
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik
Sent:  Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:15 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject:  [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is 
usually  misidentified?

ELTE in Texas is considered as a mega rarity.   Prior to 2013 there  were 
only 3 documented records (found in 1889, 1985  and 2001) - one in west  
Texas and two on Texas shore. I found one ELTE  on September 14, 2013 on Upper 
Texas Coast (accepted record) and thought that  this was one in my lifetime 
case  in Texas.  Now, one year and one  and half month later, on November 1, 
2014,  I found another one in the  same area (very close to where first was 
found). I am  confident with my  ID (but open to discussion) so my question 
is about how often  this  species is really showing up in Texas and other 
Gulf/Atlantic states.  

I often see that some birders have problems with Caspian-Royal ID (and  not 
only but this is another can of worms; unfortunately some guides are  
skipping plumages or not illustrating all plumages correctly) but Royal-Elegant 

is rather  more challenging especially for people who are  not living near 
the 
shore.   The Royal Tern is a common species  that has no ‘value’ for ticks 
on chaser’s  lists so, I am sure, not  many would spend time going trough 
thousands of these  to be sure nothing  is missed. Most birders here in Texas 
go out more often only  during  migration time (weather is another factor, 
nobody likes to be fried in   summer - get wet or be chilled in winter). 
Even then majority is either  chasing  warblers in city parks or wait for a 
signal that rarity was  found and everybody  goes there to see it; most likely 
somebody will  already be there to point the  bird. I am fully aware that 
looking at  large ROYT flock from far away and trying  to find one ELTE is 
sort of  trying to find a needle in a haystack. 

True, for many years I am  studying a few tern species and recently 
(started about couple years ago) I designated some extra time for ROYT as well. 

To  see that  something is not a ROYT is almost  instinctive now. But still 
my   
problem is: is it really a coincidence, luck or whatever that one  person   
found two ELTE in two consecutive years? In the same  area? About the same 
time  of year? BTW the record from 2001 is also from  a near area and tern 
was found  during the first part of  November  as well.  Coincidence again? 

Here are a few photos (I took some  video clips as well, no time right now 
to process) that show the last find.  This individual sports all important 
traits  of its species. 

1)  long, thin bill, red-orange at the base and yellowish at the tip; long 
crest,  crown with more black feathers than ROYT in basic plumage; black  
feathers  around the eyes; pink flush (but very faint and practically not  
visible in low  res photos);  and partially reddish/orange legs and  feet 
(Monroe, 1956,  estimated that about 90% of ELTE population he  studied had 
completely black legs  and about 10 % either completely or  partially orange). 

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083847

2)  Size comparison: slightly larger than SATE and much smaller than   ROYT

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083844

This individual,  if re-found,  will be easy to identified because of a 
very unique leg  color pattern.  At least in the near future.  

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083849

And just a few other  photos.
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083853
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083846
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083856
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083859

Also  when looking at eBird historical data it seems to be quite possible 
that some  (question how many) ELTE can enter Gulf or travel north along 
Atlantic shore from Central America. Interestedly there is no records in eBird 

 database  from Florida’s Atlantic shore, all are only from the Gulf  side. 
 
Lack of  records from Atlantic shore in Florida, South  and North Carolina 
and Virginia  might suggests that ELTE are traveling  fast along the shore 
line without longer  stops before reaching shore in  northern states or they 
stay traveling over open  waters (seems less  probable as there are 
continuous records along the Pacific  shore).  

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083843

Cheers,

Mark
Archives:  http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


-----
No virus  found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765  / Virus Database: 4189/8496 - Release Date: 11/02/14


-----
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version:  2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8494 - Release Date:  11/01/14

Archives:  http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 19:39:33 -0800
All

 I would be interested in seeing what Royal x Sandwich tern hybrids look like. 
They must exist, and my guess is that they may be more likely to have non-black 
bill colors, but this is a gut feeling. Some reported Elegant Terns from the 
Atlantic look pretty good, others not so much. Often the part that looks odd to 
me is that the bills are thicker than typical, and shorter than typical, with 
less of the droop that is the norm. I do wonder if these are hybrids, but 
rather than involving Elegant, they may in fact be Royal x Sandwich. I know it 
sounds crazy, but trying to think outside the box on what can explain the fact 
that many Elegant type things out east are not quite right. 


Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik 

Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:15 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually 
misidentified? 


ELTE in Texas is considered as a mega rarity. Prior to 2013 there were only 3 
documented records (found in 1889, 1985 and 2001) - one in west Texas and two 
on Texas shore. I found one ELTE on September 14, 2013 on Upper Texas Coast 
(accepted record) and thought that this was one in my lifetime case in Texas. 
Now, one year and one and half month later, on November 1, 2014, I found 
another one in the same area (very close to where first was found). I am 
confident with my ID (but open to discussion) so my question is about how often 
this species is really showing up in Texas and other Gulf/Atlantic states. 

 
I often see that some birders have problems with Caspian-Royal ID (and not only 
but this is another can of worms; unfortunately some guides are skipping 
plumages or not illustrating all plumages correctly) but Royal-Elegant is 
rather more challenging especially for people who are not living near the 

shore.   The Royal Tern is a common species that has no ‘value’ for ticks 
on chaser’s lists so, I am sure, not many would spend time going trough 
thousands of these to be sure nothing is missed. Most birders here in Texas go 
out more often only during migration time (weather is another factor, nobody 
likes to be fried in summer - get wet or be chilled in winter). Even then 
majority is either chasing warblers in city parks or wait for a signal that 
rarity was found and everybody goes there to see it; most likely somebody will 
already be there to point the bird. I am fully aware that looking at large ROYT 
flock from far away and trying to find one ELTE is sort of trying to find a 
needle in a haystack. 

 
True, for many years I am studying a few tern species and recently (started 
about couple years ago) I designated some extra time for ROYT as well. To see 
that something is not a ROYT is almost instinctive now. But still my 

problem is: is it really a coincidence, luck or whatever that one person   
found two ELTE in two consecutive years? In the same area? About the same time 
of year? BTW the record from 2001 is also from a near area and tern was found 
during the first part of November as well. Coincidence again? 

 
Here are a few photos (I took some video clips as well, no time right now to 
process) that show the last find. This individual sports all important traits 
of its species. 

 
1) long, thin bill, red-orange at the base and yellowish at the tip; long 
crest, crown with more black feathers than ROYT in basic plumage; black 
feathers around the eyes; pink flush (but very faint and practically not 
visible in low res photos); and partially reddish/orange legs and feet (Monroe, 
1956, estimated that about 90% of ELTE population he studied had completely 
black legs and about 10 % either completely or partially orange). 

 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083847
 
2) Size comparison: slightly larger than SATE and much smaller than  ROYT
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083844
 
This individual, if re-found, will be easy to identified because of a very 
unique leg color pattern. At least in the near future. 

 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083849
 
And just a few other photos.
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083853
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083846
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083856
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083859
 
Also when looking at eBird historical data it seems to be quite possible that 
some (question how many) ELTE can enter Gulf or travel north along Atlantic 
shore from Central America. Interestedly there is no records in eBird database 
from Florida’s Atlantic shore, all are only from the Gulf side. 

Lack of records from Atlantic shore in Florida, South and North Carolina and 
Virginia might suggests that ELTE are traveling fast along the shore line 
without longer stops before reaching shore in northern states or they stay 
traveling over open waters (seems less probable as there are continuous records 
along the Pacific shore). 

 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083843
 
Cheers,
 
Mark
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8496 - Release Date: 11/02/14


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8494 - Release Date: 11/01/14

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified?
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 22:15:03 -0500
ELTE in Texas is considered as a mega rarity.  Prior to 2013 there  were 
only 3 documented records (found in 1889, 1985 and 2001) - one in west  Texas 
and two on Texas shore. I found one ELTE on September 14, 2013 on Upper  
Texas Coast (accepted record) and thought that this was one in my lifetime case 

 in Texas.  Now, one year and one and half month later, on November 1, 
2014,  I found another one in the same area (very close to where first was 
found). I am  confident with my ID (but open to discussion) so my question is 
about how often  this species is really showing up in Texas and other 
Gulf/Atlantic states. 
 
I often see that some birders have problems with Caspian-Royal ID (and not  
only but this is another can of worms; unfortunately some guides are 
skipping plumages or not illustrating all plumages correctly) but Royal-Elegant 

is rather  more challenging especially for people who are not living near the 
shore.   The Royal Tern is a common species that has no ‘value’ for ticks 
on chaser’s  lists so, I am sure, not many would spend time going trough 
thousands of these to be sure nothing is missed. Most birders here in Texas go 

out more often only  during migration time (weather is another factor, 
nobody likes to be fried in  summer - get wet or be chilled in winter). Even 
then majority is either chasing  warblers in city parks or wait for a signal 
that rarity was found and everybody  goes there to see it; most likely 
somebody will already be there to point the bird. I am fully aware that looking 
at 

large ROYT flock from far away and trying  to find one ELTE is sort of 
trying to find a needle in a haystack. 
 
True, for many years I am studying a few tern species and recently (started 
 about couple years ago) I designated some extra time for ROYT as well.  To 
 see that something is not a ROYT is almost  instinctive now. But still my  
problem is: is it really a coincidence, luck or whatever that one person   
found two ELTE in two consecutive years? In the same area? About the same 
time  of year? BTW the record from 2001 is also from a near area and tern was 
found  during the first part of  November as well.  Coincidence again? 
 
Here are a few photos (I took some video clips as well, no time right now  
to process) that show the last find. This individual sports all important 
traits  of its species. 
 
1) long, thin bill, red-orange at the base and yellowish at the tip; long  
crest, crown with more black feathers than ROYT in basic plumage; black 
feathers  around the eyes; pink flush (but very faint and practically not 
visible in low res photos); and partially reddish/orange legs and feet (Monroe, 

1956,  estimated that about 90% of ELTE population he studied had completely 
black legs  and about 10 % either completely or partially orange). 
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083847
 
2) Size comparison: slightly larger than SATE and much smaller than  ROYT
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083844
 
This individual, if re-found,  will be easy to identified because of a  
very unique leg color pattern.  At least in the near future. 
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083849
 
And just a few other photos.
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083853
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083846
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083856
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083859
 
Also when looking at eBird historical data it seems to be quite possible  
that some (question how many) ELTE can enter Gulf or travel north along 
Atlantic shore from Central America. Interestedly there is no records in eBird 

database  from Florida’s Atlantic shore, all are only from the Gulf side.  
Lack of  records from Atlantic shore in Florida, South and North Carolina and 
Virginia  might suggests that ELTE are traveling fast along the shore line 
without longer  stops before reaching shore in northern states or they stay 
traveling over open  waters (seems less probable as there are continuous 
records along the Pacific  shore). 
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158083843
 
Cheers,
 
Mark
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Timing of molt in Arctic (and Pacific) Loon
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 10:36:39 -0700
Hi Paul and all -

Yes, this is unusual. Note also that it's in fresh alternate plumage. 
Had it simply skipped molting this past summer the plumage would look 
more worn than this. So this leads me to believe that it underwent 
the normal complete prebasic body molt in Aug-Sep but that the 
hormone cycle that directs plumage coloration was completely off, 
signalling alternate feather coloration as opposed to basic. The head 
plumage seems a bit duller than normal for fresh alternate plumage, 
which may be related to the off-cycle plumage deposition or may just 
be the low lighting in the photos. Pacific and Arctic loons are 
similar in their molts and plumages. I believe this bird is at least 
2+ years old by the plumage and eye color.

Full alternate-like coloration in basic plumage happens only 
occasionally in birds. I've seen evidence for it in gulls and 
shorebirds. I believe there was a dowitcher like this fairly recently 
on this list. These birds seem to result from a complete 
switch-around in plumage-hormone interactions. More common are cases 
where molts and plumage-deposition cycles are slightly off, resulting 
in partially alternate-like coloration in basic plumage, or 
female-like plumage in males (e.g., in Summer Tanager). More info on 
these sorts of interactions in Common Murre is here:
https://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/docs/abstracts/44-3FP.pdf

Peter

At 08:33 AM 10/31/2014, Paul Hurtado wrote:
>Last week, Ohio was graced with this bird, which appears to be an alternate
>plumage ARCTIC LOON (although I'd love to hear any insights that call that
>ID into question):
>
>http://tinyurl.com/lz4agsp
>http://tinyurl.com/nv57hzl
>
>Those images are from this facebook post by Diane Perkins on 23 Oct 2014,
>in the Birding Ohio group (the post itself is only visible if you join the
>group.) and unfortunately there aren't many other photos of the bird.
>
>https://www.facebook.com/groups/BirdingOhio/permalink/708956875861479/
>
>I didn't get to see the bird, but multiple observers report that it showed
>no vent strap.
>
>I'm curious what might explain the state of molt?  It seems late for a bird
>to be in what looks like nearly full alternate plumage (or is it just
>towards the tail end of normal?) and I'm curious if Arctic and Pacific are
>known to differ much in their timing of molt.
>
>Thanks,
>Paul Hurtado
>Columbus, OH
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Timing of molt in Arctic (and Pacific) Loon
From: Paul Hurtado <paul.j.hurtado AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 11:33:55 -0400
Last week, Ohio was graced with this bird, which appears to be an alternate
plumage ARCTIC LOON (although I'd love to hear any insights that call that
ID into question):

http://tinyurl.com/lz4agsp
http://tinyurl.com/nv57hzl

Those images are from this facebook post by Diane Perkins on 23 Oct 2014,
in the Birding Ohio group (the post itself is only visible if you join the
group.) and unfortunately there aren't many other photos of the bird.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/BirdingOhio/permalink/708956875861479/

I didn't get to see the bird, but multiple observers report that it showed
no vent strap.

I'm curious what might explain the state of molt?  It seems late for a bird
to be in what looks like nearly full alternate plumage (or is it just
towards the tail end of normal?) and I'm curious if Arctic and Pacific are
known to differ much in their timing of molt.

Thanks,
Paul Hurtado
Columbus, OH

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: possible hybrid teal
From: Tony leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 07:49:36 -0400
Lee:

I, too, had some concern about the brightness of the legs, but I can find no 
other suggestion of infusion of shoveler genes. 


Tony Leukering
currently Mayville, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

> On Oct 30, 2014, at 1:41 PM, LGREUK400 AT aol.com wrote:
> 
> Tony/all
>  
> Of the 25 or so 'young' Blue-winged Teals I have seen in the UK in autumn, 
they have had very dull leg colour - generally greyish to very pale yellow. The 
brighter leg colour (eg, orange as seen in this pic) have either related to 
adult birds or hybrid Shovelers (orange being the prevalent colour of Shoveler 
legs & feet and yellow of Blue-winged Teal). It concerns me now that juvenile 
Blue-winged Teal could show such rich leg colour 

>  
> I find this latest Minnesota bird uncannily similar to birds we have been 
getting over here in England lately and although it does seem to 'fit the bill' 
as regards Blue-winged Teal, I would not be convinced that some Northern 
Shoveler genes are not involved 

>  
> Very best wishes
>  
> Lee Evans
>  
>  

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: possible hybrid teal
From: David Bell <d AT VIDBELL.COM>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 20:31:56 -0700
David, Lee, Tony, Nick et. al. thank you very much for your helpful comments on 
this bird. 


Another helpful comment came on Flickr: Cathy commented that the photo may be 
underexposed making the bird appear darker than it would in life. 


Thank you,
Dave Bell


>>> 
>>> The following photo was sent to BirdsEye last week and I thought it might 
be interesting to the group 

>>> https://flic.kr/p/pzSrp3 
>>> 
>>> This photo was taken in late September at the Minnesota River Valley 
National Wildlife Refuge by Gerald R. Hoekstra. In addition to what's visible 
in the photo, Gerald also noted that it was distinctly smaller than nearby 
Mallards. He identified it was a teal in the field. 

>>> 
>>> It seems to fit Blue-winged Teal best: all dark bill, green inner speculum, 
large bill, etc. However there are characters that seem odd to me: the overall 
coloration too dark, larger more spatulate bill (?), lack of strong eyeline and 
pale patch near the base of the bill. 

>>> 
>>> Could this be a hybrid Shoveler x Blue-winged Teal, or is it within the 
range of variation for BW Teal? 

>>> 
>>> Any thoughts?
>>> 
>>> David A Bell
>>> www.birdseyebirding.com
>>> Pasadena, CA
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>> 
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: possible hybrid teal
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:58:21 -0700
Nick, 

The head seems a bit too grayish for a young Cinnamon Teal and young Cinnamons 
are usually pale around the eye creating a diffuse eye ring. 


Dave Irons

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 30, 2014, at 10:49 AM, "Lethaby, Nick"  wrote:

> How is Cinnamon Teal eliminated here?
> 
> I agree there doesn't seem to be a strong reason to consider a hybrid 
although the bright orange legs are more of a Shoveler trait. 

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons 

> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 9:47 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] possible hybrid teal
> 
> Greetings All,
> 
> The small rounded mantle and scapular feathers and their lack of broad pale 
edges indicate to me that this is a hatch-year bird. In my experience, young 
Blue-winged Teal have weaker face patterns than adults and less obvious pale at 
the base of this bill. The bill size and spatulation (is that a word?) looks 
within the range of Blue-winged teal to me. I would expect a hybrid Blue-winged 
Teal X N. Shoveler to show some orange on the bill, which this bird doesn't. 
While maybe a little odd looking, I would call this a hatch-year Blue-winged 
Teal. 

> 
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR 
> 
>> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 06:30:18 -0700
>> From: d AT VIDBELL.COM
>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] possible hybrid teal
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> 
>> The following photo was sent to BirdsEye last week and I thought it might be 
interesting to the group 

>> https://flic.kr/p/pzSrp3 
>> 
>> This photo was taken in late September at the Minnesota River Valley 
National Wildlife Refuge by Gerald R. Hoekstra. In addition to what's visible 
in the photo, Gerald also noted that it was distinctly smaller than nearby 
Mallards. He identified it was a teal in the field. 

>> 
>> It seems to fit Blue-winged Teal best: all dark bill, green inner speculum, 
large bill, etc. However there are characters that seem odd to me: the overall 
coloration too dark, larger more spatulate bill (?), lack of strong eyeline and 
pale patch near the base of the bill. 

>> 
>> Could this be a hybrid Shoveler x Blue-winged Teal, or is it within the 
range of variation for BW Teal? 

>> 
>> Any thoughts?
>> 
>> David A Bell
>> www.birdseyebirding.com
>> Pasadena, CA
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>                         
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: possible hybrid teal
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 17:49:19 +0000
How is Cinnamon Teal eliminated here?

I agree there doesn't seem to be a strong reason to consider a hybrid although 
the bright orange legs are more of a Shoveler trait. 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons 

Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 9:47 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] possible hybrid teal

Greetings All,

The small rounded mantle and scapular feathers and their lack of broad pale 
edges indicate to me that this is a hatch-year bird. In my experience, young 
Blue-winged Teal have weaker face patterns than adults and less obvious pale at 
the base of this bill. The bill size and spatulation (is that a word?) looks 
within the range of Blue-winged teal to me. I would expect a hybrid Blue-winged 
Teal X N. Shoveler to show some orange on the bill, which this bird doesn't. 
While maybe a little odd looking, I would call this a hatch-year Blue-winged 
Teal. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR 

> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 06:30:18 -0700
> From: d AT VIDBELL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] possible hybrid teal
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> The following photo was sent to BirdsEye last week and I thought it might be 
interesting to the group 

> https://flic.kr/p/pzSrp3 
> 
> This photo was taken in late September at the Minnesota River Valley National 
Wildlife Refuge by Gerald R. Hoekstra. In addition to what's visible in the 
photo, Gerald also noted that it was distinctly smaller than nearby Mallards. 
He identified it was a teal in the field. 

> 
> It seems to fit Blue-winged Teal best: all dark bill, green inner speculum, 
large bill, etc. However there are characters that seem odd to me: the overall 
coloration too dark, larger more spatulate bill (?), lack of strong eyeline and 
pale patch near the base of the bill. 

> 
> Could this be a hybrid Shoveler x Blue-winged Teal, or is it within the range 
of variation for BW Teal? 

> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> David A Bell
> www.birdseyebirding.com
> Pasadena, CA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: possible hybrid teal
From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 13:41:10 -0400
Tony/all
 
Of the 25 or so 'young' Blue-winged Teals I have seen in the UK in autumn,  
they have had very dull leg colour - generally greyish to very pale yellow. 
The  brighter leg colour (eg, orange as seen in this pic) have either 
related to adult birds or hybrid Shovelers (orange being the prevalent colour 
of 

Shoveler  legs & feet and yellow of Blue-winged Teal). It concerns me now 
that  juvenile Blue-winged Teal could show such rich leg colour
 
I find this latest Minnesota bird uncannily similar to birds we have been  
getting over here in England lately and although it does seem to 'fit the 
bill'  as regards Blue-winged Teal, I would not be convinced that some 
Northern  Shoveler genes are not involved
 
Very best wishes
 
Lee Evans
 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 
Subject: Re: possible hybrid teal
From: Tony leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 13:26:20 -0400
All:

I agree with Mr. Irons in Blue-winged Teal. I would expect for Northern 
Shoveler genes to put more/some white in the tail and more/some pale internal 
markings on the side/flank feathers (see 
http://cfobirds.org/downloads/In%20the%20Scope/In%20the%20Scope%20January%202013.pdf). 


The brightness of the legs on a young Blue-winged also should seal the deal for 
the sex as male. 


Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Mayville, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

> On Oct 30, 2014, at 12:47 PM, David Irons  wrote:
> 
> Greetings All,
> 
> The small rounded mantle and scapular feathers and their lack of broad pale 
edges indicate to me that this is a hatch-year bird. In my experience, young 
Blue-winged Teal have weaker face patterns than adults and less obvious pale at 
the base of this bill. The bill size and spatulation (is that a word?) looks 
within the range of Blue-winged teal to me. I would expect a hybrid Blue-winged 
Teal X N. Shoveler to show some orange on the bill, which this bird doesn't. 
While maybe a little odd looking, I would call this a hatch-year Blue-winged 
Teal. 

> 
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR 
> 
>> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 06:30:18 -0700
>> From: d AT VIDBELL.COM
>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] possible hybrid teal
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> 
>> The following photo was sent to BirdsEye last week and I thought it might be 
interesting to the group 

>> https://flic.kr/p/pzSrp3 
>> 
>> This photo was taken in late September at the Minnesota River Valley 
National Wildlife Refuge by Gerald R. Hoekstra. In addition to what’s visible 
in the photo, Gerald also noted that it was distinctly smaller than nearby 
Mallards. He identified it was a teal in the field. 

>> 
>> It seems to fit Blue-winged Teal best: all dark bill, green inner speculum, 
large bill, etc. However there are characters that seem odd to me: the overall 
coloration too dark, larger more spatulate bill (?), lack of strong eyeline and 
pale patch near the base of the bill. 

>> 
>> Could this be a hybrid Shoveler x Blue-winged Teal, or is it within the 
range of variation for BW Teal? 

>> 
>> Any thoughts?
>> 
>> David A Bell
>> www.birdseyebirding.com
>> Pasadena, CA
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>                         
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: possible hybrid teal
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 16:47:08 +0000
Greetings All,

The small rounded mantle and scapular feathers and their lack of broad pale 
edges indicate to me that this is a hatch-year bird. In my experience, young 
Blue-winged Teal have weaker face patterns than adults and less obvious pale at 
the base of this bill. The bill size and spatulation (is that a word?) looks 
within the range of Blue-winged teal to me. I would expect a hybrid Blue-winged 
Teal X N. Shoveler to show some orange on the bill, which this bird doesn't. 
While maybe a little odd looking, I would call this a hatch-year Blue-winged 
Teal. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR 

> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 06:30:18 -0700
> From: d AT VIDBELL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] possible hybrid teal
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> The following photo was sent to BirdsEye last week and I thought it might be 
interesting to the group 

> https://flic.kr/p/pzSrp3 
> 
> This photo was taken in late September at the Minnesota River Valley National 
Wildlife Refuge by Gerald R. Hoekstra. In addition to whats visible in the 
photo, Gerald also noted that it was distinctly smaller than nearby Mallards. 
He identified it was a teal in the field. 

> 
> It seems to fit Blue-winged Teal best: all dark bill, green inner speculum, 
large bill, etc. However there are characters that seem odd to me: the overall 
coloration too dark, larger more spatulate bill (?), lack of strong eyeline and 
pale patch near the base of the bill. 

> 
> Could this be a hybrid Shoveler x Blue-winged Teal, or is it within the range 
of variation for BW Teal? 

> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> David A Bell
> www.birdseyebirding.com
> Pasadena, CA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: possible hybrid teal
From: David Bell <d AT VIDBELL.COM>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 06:30:18 -0700
The following photo was sent to BirdsEye last week and I thought it might be 
interesting to the group 

https://flic.kr/p/pzSrp3 

This photo was taken in late September at the Minnesota River Valley National 
Wildlife Refuge by Gerald R. Hoekstra. In addition to whats visible in the 
photo, Gerald also noted that it was distinctly smaller than nearby Mallards. 
He identified it was a teal in the field. 


It seems to fit Blue-winged Teal best: all dark bill, green inner speculum, 
large bill, etc. However there are characters that seem odd to me: the overall 
coloration too dark, larger more spatulate bill (?), lack of strong eyeline and 
pale patch near the base of the bill. 


Could this be a hybrid Shoveler x Blue-winged Teal, or is it within the range 
of variation for BW Teal? 


Any thoughts?

David A Bell
www.birdseyebirding.com
Pasadena, CA





Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Eurasian vs. African Collared-Dove in the ABA Area
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd57 AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 14:13:13 -0700
Hi, everybody.
I put together a little tutorial on collared-dove ID. I didn't appreciate until 
recently the challenge for ABA Area birders beyond the southern borderlands. 
Anyhow, here ya go: 

http://tinyurl.com/AfCD-tutorial

Ted FloydLafayette, Boulder County, Colorado, USA 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Ventura Warbler
From: Marcelo Brongo <marcelobrongo AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 20:06:51 +0200
Hi Tristan,
The open wing photo is actually showing a long primaries projection so I cannot 
understand your point about short primary projection. The quite longer 4-5 
external primaries in relation with secondaries will show, when folded, a long 
primary projection. It's a point with what I get some experience with my 
birdbanding activities. 

In addition, David Sibley raised two criticals points with the pale-edge great 
coverts and yellow tail and have made me change my mind. As far as I can see 
with these photos, Yellow Warbler seems the better option and without any good 
quality photos I cannot go further in the delicate field of hybrid. 


Best regards
Marcelo Brongo

> On 14 oct. 2014, at 18:36, Tristan McKee  wrote:
> 
> I really appreciate the responses so far, namely, supporting Connecticut, 
Orange-crowned x Yellow, Yellow x Mourning or x MacGillivray's, and Yellow. 
There was a request for more info on the bird's behavior. Note that birds act 
odd in this tamarisk row because of traffic along the immediately adjacent 
road. 

> 
> This bird hops around hyperactively high in the tamarisks with a cocked tail, 
occasionally taking a long break deep in a palm across the road, and we saw it 
fly into a field of avocado shrubs to roost. 

> 
> I believe the yellow in the tail and missing/growing rectrices give the false 
impression that this bird's undertail coverts extend well out on the tail. 
Also, the call is radically different from any Connecticut recording I have 
heard, the bird is too slender and long-tailed, and, again, the lack of primary 
projection doesn't fit Connecticut. I have also been told that the leg 
thickness and toe structure are wrong. 

> 
> To me, a Yellow with eucalyptus on its face is more difficult to eliminate, 
although the long, cocked tail, lack of primary projection, and call note are 
strikingly different from any Yellow I have seen. 

> 
> The suggestion of Yellow x Orange-crowned would explain most things (except 
the call and primary projection), especially considering some apparent blurry 
streaks on the breast. 

> 
> Thanks much,
> Tristan McKee
> Arcata, CA
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Ventura Warbler
From: Tristan McKee <atmckee AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 09:36:06 -0700
I really appreciate the responses so far, namely, supporting Connecticut, 
Orange-crowned x Yellow, Yellow x Mourning or x MacGillivray's, and Yellow. 
There was a request for more info on the bird's behavior. Note that birds act 
odd in this tamarisk row because of traffic along the immediately adjacent 
road. 


This bird hops around hyperactively high in the tamarisks with a cocked tail, 
occasionally taking a long break deep in a palm across the road, and we saw it 
fly into a field of avocado shrubs to roost. 


I believe the yellow in the tail and missing/growing rectrices give the false 
impression that this bird's undertail coverts extend well out on the tail. 
Also, the call is radically different from any Connecticut recording I have 
heard, the bird is too slender and long-tailed, and, again, the lack of primary 
projection doesn't fit Connecticut. I have also been told that the leg 
thickness and toe structure are wrong. 


To me, a Yellow with eucalyptus on its face is more difficult to eliminate, 
although the long, cocked tail, lack of primary projection, and call note are 
strikingly different from any Yellow I have seen. 


The suggestion of Yellow x Orange-crowned would explain most things (except the 
call and primary projection), especially considering some apparent blurry 
streaks on the breast. 


Thanks much,
Tristan McKee
Arcata, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fwd: Geothlypis hybridization and variation
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 16:01:41 +0000
The dark lores in some pics are wrong for Yellow.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Sibley 

Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 8:17 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fwd: Geothlypis hybridization and variation

An interesting and suggestive bird, but I don't see this as a Connecticut 
Warbler or a hybrid. It looks like a good match for Yellow Warbler, especially 
the pale-edged greater coverts visible in the side view, and the tail pattern 
in the spread tail photo, which seems to show a clear pattern of pale yellow 
inner webs with darker outer webs and tips. Both coverts and tail pattern are 
wrong for any Oporornis/Geothlypis, and right for Yellow Warbler. Why not a 
very dusky-olive Yellow Warbler with an abnormal voice? 


There may be other details that point away from Yellow Warbler, but for now I 
don't see any reason to go beyond that species. 


David Sibley
Concord, MA

On Oct 14, 2014, at 6:16 AM, Marcelo Brongo  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I cannot find anything wrong calling this bird a Connecticut Warbler. 
> First fall individuals can have yellowish throat and overvall drab 
> coloration ( 
> http://www.lilibirds.com/gallery2/d/1631-3/connecticut+warbler+1.jpg 
> ). If sometimes colors can be hard to assess due to picture quality , 
> we can rely on structure with better confidence. The flying pictures 
> and open wing pictures are usefull. Geothlypis' species show very long 
> tail extension beyond the undertail coverts 
> (http://tinyurl.com/kjuwoja) and your bird doesn't. It's actually very 
> short as a normal Connecticut W.). The wing morphology also match much 
> better with Connecticut long pointed one. (
> http://tinyurl.com/kkn7mq4)
> 
> Best regards
> Marcelo Brongo
> 
> Wing picture was took from Slater Museum of Natural History (Wing & 
> Tail Image Collection):
> http://digitalcollections.pugetsound.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/sl
> aterwing
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fwd: Geothlypis hybridization and variation
From: David Sibley <sibleyguides AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:17:02 -0400
An interesting and suggestive bird, but I dont see this as a Connecticut 
Warbler or a hybrid. It looks like a good match for Yellow Warbler, especially 
the pale-edged greater coverts visible in the side view, and the tail pattern 
in the spread tail photo, which seems to show a clear pattern of pale yellow 
inner webs with darker outer webs and tips. Both coverts and tail pattern are 
wrong for any Oporornis/Geothlypis, and right for Yellow Warbler. Why not a 
very dusky-olive Yellow Warbler with an abnormal voice? 


There may be other details that point away from Yellow Warbler, but for now I 
dont see any reason to go beyond that species. 


David Sibley
Concord, MA

On Oct 14, 2014, at 6:16 AM, Marcelo Brongo  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I cannot find anything wrong calling this bird a Connecticut Warbler. First
> fall individuals can have yellowish throat and overvall drab coloration (
> http://www.lilibirds.com/gallery2/d/1631-3/connecticut+warbler+1.jpg ). If
> sometimes colors can be hard to assess due to picture quality , we can rely
> on structure with better confidence. The flying pictures and open wing
> pictures are usefull. Geothlypis' species show very long tail extension
> beyond the undertail coverts (http://tinyurl.com/kjuwoja) and your bird
> doesn't. It's actually very short as a normal Connecticut W.). The wing
> morphology also match much better with Connecticut long pointed one. (
> http://tinyurl.com/kkn7mq4)
> 
> Best regards
> Marcelo Brongo
> 
> Wing picture was took from Slater Museum of Natural History (Wing & Tail
> Image Collection):
> 
http://digitalcollections.pugetsound.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/slaterwing 

> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Fwd: Geothlypis hybridization and variation
From: Marcelo Brongo <marcelobrongo AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 12:16:14 +0200
Hi,

I cannot find anything wrong calling this bird a Connecticut Warbler. First
fall individuals can have yellowish throat and overvall drab coloration (
http://www.lilibirds.com/gallery2/d/1631-3/connecticut+warbler+1.jpg ). If
sometimes colors can be hard to assess due to picture quality , we can rely
on structure with better confidence. The flying pictures and open wing
pictures are usefull. Geothlypis' species show very long tail extension
beyond the undertail coverts (http://tinyurl.com/kjuwoja) and your bird
doesn't. It's actually very short as a normal Connecticut W.). The wing
morphology also match much better with Connecticut long pointed one. (
http://tinyurl.com/kkn7mq4)

Best regards
Marcelo Brongo

Wing picture was took from Slater Museum of Natural History (Wing & Tail
Image Collection):
http://digitalcollections.pugetsound.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/slaterwing

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Easier access to Geothlypis photos
From: Tristan McKee <atmckee AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 00:39:10 -0700
If you are having trouble viewing the photos of the Ventura bird, I have placed 
a few courtesy of Dorian Anderson on my flickr site: 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/101791769 AT N08/

Tristan McKee
Arcata, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Geothlypis hybridization and variation
From: Tristan McKee <atmckee AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 23:09:04 -0700
A Geothylpis warbler in Ventura County, CA, has been terrorizing birders with 
brief and unsatisfactory views for several days. Photos are here: 


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/venturacobirding/photos/photostream

Although first identified as a Mourning, then a Connecticut, it became clear 
today that this bird has yellowthroat genes. It has been suggested that more 
than one Geothlypis/Oporornis is present, but I scoured the small patch of 
Tamarisks today and yesterday and only saw that same bird repeatedly, the one 
in (most of) the photos. It is possible that some Yellow or Orange-crowned 
shots got mixed in; one flight shot looks shorter-tailed and may be a Yellow 
Warbler. 


The bird looks like a Common Yellowthroat but is largely rich yellow below 
(some white on the sides/vent) and often appears to have a square-tipped tail. 
In reality, the tail is rounded at the corners but has a notch in the middle. 
My best guess is that the central rectrices (and maybe others) are missing 
and/or growing adventitiously. (Try counting the tail feathers.) If this is the 
case, then the tail shape may be leading us astray. 


The chip note ranges from very Common Yellowthroat-like to Mourning 
Warbler-like. I have a not-so-great recording; send me an email if you'd like 
to hear it. 


The apparent yellow in the tail has led to the suggestion of a Yellow Warbler x 
Common Yellowthroat hybrid, while the overall appearance suggests Mourning x 
yellowthroat or Connecticut x yellowthroat. In any case, I take the call note 
and nearly nonexistent primary projection to indicate that at least one of the 
parents was some kind of yellowthroat. 


My suggestion of Gray-crowned Yellowthroat generated no support because of the 
tail length and bill depth. Some of the photos that just surfaced do suggest 
that the tail is not fully grown. I am unsure if a young Gray-crowned could 
have a developing bill this thin, but I have found photos that look similar. Is 
this geographically variable? The bird does have a contrastingly pale mandible 
and a somewhat curved culmen. 


Gray-crowned is geographically variable, with the eye-arc/eyering apparently 
changing clinally from north to south. The facial pattern is disturbingly 
Gray-crowned-like, although some of that black may be eucalyptus oil. 


Note the tail shape of this TX bird:

http://texasbirds.org/tbrc/gcyel.htm

and the thin bill and yellow-looking undertail of this one:

http://www.singularvideo.com/LB/gallery/84-72-Wood-Warblers.html

The bird responded aggressively to playback of Gray-crowned (flying out of a 
thick palm onto a telephone wire and chipping incessantly), but did not respond 
to a Common recording. 


I have found recordings a Gray-crowned giving Common-like chips, but they may 
have been misidentified, as I have also read that they NEVER do this. 


Belding's Yellowthroat could fit the bill. Obviously none of the suggestions so 
far are very likely here, so I will refrain from relying on likelihood too 
much... 


We would greatly appreciate comments from folks with experience with 
yellowthroat hybrids, immature and calling Belding's and Gray-crowned, and/or 
geographic variation in Gray-crowned or other yellowthroats. 


Many thanks,

Tristan McKee
Arcata, CA


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: SY Iceland Gull(?) spent over 2 months in Texas
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2014 22:39:31 -0400
Hi All,
 
I would appreciate ID confirmation (or correction if I am wrong). At this  
moment I believe there are only 5 officially confirmed records of ICGU in 
Texas  (perhaps there are more submitted) so it would be worth to submit this 
record if  indeed my ID is correct. Apparently it is a SY gull that in these 
photos is  about to complete prebasic molt (spread wing and tail are 
included in the composite; showing all fresh, basic flight feathers; P9 and P10 

are still  growing).  
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/157805585
 
And just to show ‘metamorphosis’ after completing the molt, from worn and  
bleached plumage to fresh one, I will show a few headshots from different 
dates  during this gull molt. BTW what I enjoyed the most was fact that SY 
ICGU photos  I could find were usually showing bleached basic plumage of SY/TY 
and now I  could not only watch the progress in exchanging feathers but had 
an opportunity  to see them as fresh as possible right after they were full 
grown. 
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/157805583
Note:  second photo from top - spider on the gull head - it seems that he 
liked the  spot and stayed there for a longer time. Also in last photo - 
secretion from  nasal salt gland
 
Of course if somebody wants to include a few words about kumlieni vs.  
nominate race I will appreciate this as well although, I am afraid, it might 
not 

 be possible to positively IDed the race in this case.
 
I think I should include a short history of this find. I found it first  
time in mid July on the beach in south-west end of the Bolivar Peninsula. Gull 
 was in very sorry shape (bleached and worn plumage) so my initial request 
at  that time posted on some gull forum did not return much. I found later 
that at  that time this gull was also seen by others. It did not triggered 
much attention  probably (my guess) because one local authority first IDed 
this gull as Glaucous  then, after day or two later, announced that this is a 
bleached Ring-billed  Gull. Whatever, no more records reported that I am 
aware of. None on eBird –  perhaps it was reported as RBGU.
 
Because this gull had interesting molt progress and feathers that include  
some anomalies (and from the very beginning I was hoping it is ICGU) I tried 
to  follow it on a regular basis. For over two months (at least from mid 
July to  second part of September) it seems to reside in the Galveston Bay 
area - please note that tip of Bolivar, tip of Texas City Dike, Pelican Island 

(most parts  inaccessible to visitors) and East end of Galveston are only a 
few miles away  from each other and many sea and shorebirds travel from one 
place to another  when foraging (have some banded birds I observed to 
travel around). Problem is  that it takes a lot of time (and miles) to move 
around in the car (ferry, bridges, etc.) but I managed to find this gull 
usually 

in 1-2 weeks intervals  (time permitted; see explanation above) during 
July, August and September (BTW a  few other ICGUs found in Texas before also 
spent several months in one location  although during different months). On 
couple days I could not relocated this  gull at all. A few weeks ago, after 
being very close to complete prebasic molt,  including all flight feathers 
this gull very likely moved out of this area so I  missed full grown P9 and 
P10. It was not only during time when its prebasic molt  was almost completed 
but also at that time there was an influx of all ages  Lesser Black-backed 
Gulls that just arrived on this part of Texas shore. As  LBBGs and American 
Herring Gulls seem to move quite a lot in, out and along the  shore this ICGU, 
that just regained full flight ability, very likely joined them  in 
foraging trips and stopped to depend mostly on fish carcasses found near  
shoreline. BTW it was very dominant chasing away not only all LAGUs and RBGUs 
but 

also every LBBG. It never confronted Herrings but these larger gulls also  
never tried to claim food from ICGU when it was eating, even when nearby. I 
have  some video clips showing ICGU display postures but it will take time 
before I process them, processing photos will take priority. On the other hand 

if  somebody thinks that some other details are needed for positive ID (that 
are not  well shown in included composite) I will try to process more 
photos now (have plenty). BTW this gull was mute during displays, never heard 
it 

calling. 
 
Thanks in advance for comments
 
Cheers,
 
Mark 
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Neal G. Smith - Obituary
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2014 17:53:44 -0400
We've often discussed Neal Smith's studies of Thayer's Gull on ID-Frontiers.
We do not recall his obituary being mentioned here or elsewhere and we had
no idea of his passing until reading it online today. We suspect others were
unaware too. His obituary was published in The New York Times on December
23, 2012. It reads: Smith, Neal. G., of Brooklyn NY. On September 28, 2012
in Panama City, Panama. Survived by his wife, Ninochtka Franco of Panama,
sons Roger and David, four grandchildren; Harrison, Taylor, Jaden and Ryan.
Obtained his Ph.D. from Cornell, 49 years staff scientist at Smithsonian
Tropical Research Institute in Panama. He was 75.

We thank Michel Gosselin for bringing this to our attention.

Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron
Toronto ON

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Scarlet/Summer Tanager on Island of Barra - NW Scotland
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia3 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 22:23:11 -0400
Lee,

Scarlet Tanager has white under wing coverts, Summer does not.

Allen T. Chartier
Inkster, Michigan
Email: amazilia3 AT gmail.com
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mihummingbirdguy/collections/
Website: www.amazilia.net
Blog: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Tony Leukering  wrote:

> Lee et al.:
>
> I cannot imagine a Summer Tanager with such contrastingly black wings and
> tail.  I see no reason to go down that road.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tony Leukering
> currently Mayville, MI
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>
> http://aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee G R Evans 
> To: BIRDWG01 
> Sent: Thu, Oct 9, 2014 5:06 pm
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Scarlet/Summer Tanager on Island of Barra - NW Scotland
>
>
>
> Images here: http://www.western-isles-wildlife.com/Latest%20Bird%20an
>
> 
d%20general%20wildlife%20sightings%20in%20the%20western%20isles,%20outer%20hebrides 

> .htm
>
> There was an overwhelming number of North American observers responding to
> my request opting for SCARLET TANAGER, while of 9 Canadian ornithologists,
> 8  were in favour of SUMMER TANAGER. The bird has been trapped and ringed
> in
> the  interim but I do not have access to the biometrics but we are still
> running with  it as a 'SCARLE'T' TANAGER. Is there any diagnostic ways of
> separating the two  in such plumage as some commentators believe some
> first-year
>
> Summers can lack  any of the orange plumage pigmentation
>
> Interested to hear any comments
>
> Many thanks
>
> Lee Evans
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Scarlet/Summer Tanager on Island of Barra - NW Scotland
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 17:19:05 -0400
Lee et al.:

I cannot imagine a Summer Tanager with such contrastingly black wings and tail. 
I see no reason to go down that road. 


Tony

 

 


Tony Leukering
currently Mayville, MI

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee G R Evans 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Thu, Oct 9, 2014 5:06 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Scarlet/Summer Tanager on Island of Barra - NW Scotland


 
Images here: http://www.western-isles-wildlife.com/Latest%20Bird%20an

d%20general%20wildlife%20sightings%20in%20the%20western%20isles,%20outer%20hebrides 

.htm
 
There was an overwhelming number of North American observers responding to  
my request opting for SCARLET TANAGER, while of 9 Canadian ornithologists, 
8  were in favour of SUMMER TANAGER. The bird has been trapped and ringed in 
the  interim but I do not have access to the biometrics but we are still 
running with  it as a 'SCARLE'T' TANAGER. Is there any diagnostic ways of 
separating the two in such plumage as some commentators believe some first-year 


Summers can lack  any of the orange plumage pigmentation
 
Interested to hear any comments
 
Many thanks
 
Lee Evans

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Scarlet/Summer Tanager on Island of Barra - NW Scotland
From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 17:04:09 -0400
 
Images here: http://www.western-isles-wildlife.com/Latest%20Bird%20an

d%20general%20wildlife%20sightings%20in%20the%20western%20isles,%20outer%20hebrides 

.htm
 
There was an overwhelming number of North American observers responding to  
my request opting for SCARLET TANAGER, while of 9 Canadian ornithologists, 
8  were in favour of SUMMER TANAGER. The bird has been trapped and ringed in 
the  interim but I do not have access to the biometrics but we are still 
running with  it as a 'SCARLE'T' TANAGER. Is there any diagnostic ways of 
separating the two in such plumage as some commentators believe some first-year 

Summers can lack  any of the orange plumage pigmentation
 
Interested to hear any comments
 
Many thanks
 
Lee Evans

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Opinions sought on vagrant TANAGER in NW Scotland (UK)
From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 18:21:11 -0400
Putative Scarlet Tanager, 6-7 October 2014 - Island of Barra (NW  Scotland)
 
Selection of pictures here on Latest Sightings page - click to  increase 
size - _www.western-isles-wildlife.co.uk_ 
(http://www.western-isles-wildlife.co.uk) 
 
I am soliciting opinions from those familiar with Scarlet and Summer  
Tanagers in fall - this individual appears to have a particularly bright bill  
and peaked forehead. Is it possible to make a firm identification either  way?
 
Would be very interested in any opinions
 
Very best wishes
 
Lee Evans

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html