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Updated on Wednesday, December 19 at 09:51 AM ET
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Thanks, Pierre (and all). I have considered that.
Though it's not really apparent from the pictures, the
gull did have a distinct mantle color. It was
extremely light gray, but it gave the impression of a
normally-plumaged adult (or near adult) Glaucous or
Iceland.  Additionally the head and bill of my bird
are somewhat differently shaped than most of the
surrounding birds.

I appreciate the comments and backchannel comments.
Here's how they break down right now:

Glaucous: 9
Iceland: 3
leucistic Herring: 2

At the moment, I'm favoring Glaucous, and it seems
likely that this bird may be a barrovianus (I don't
know how common those are on the Great Lakes?). In the
field, I was thinking (and hoping..) that this was an
Iceland, mainly due to the fact that all the Glaucous
I've seen tower over the Herrings. But when I got back
and started to look at photos of Icelands, this bird
never appeared as small, or as small-headed as it
seems an Iceland should, and it seems to me that
barrovianus Glaucous is the best explanation.

Thanks again,

Nick Anich
Ashland, WI



--- Pierre-Andr� CROCHET
 wrote:

> Dear all,
> 
> Given the similarity in size and shape between this
> bird and the Am. Herring Gulls around it, I wonder
> if the intermediate appearance between Glaucous and
> Iceland cannot be explained by it being a leucistic
> Am Herring Gull...
> See European examples at 
>
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=17692
>
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=14040
>
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6534
>
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=3792
> And others
> That seems worth considering for me...
> Pierre
>   
> 
> 
> 
> Pierre-Andr� Crochet
> CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et
> Evolutive
> 1919, route de Mende
> 34293 Montpellier cedex 5
> France
> tel: +  (mobile)
>      +  (office)
> fax: + 
> 
> 
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field
> Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de
> Nick Anich
> Envoy� : 18 December 2007 21:07
> � : BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Objet : [BIRDWG01] Iceland or Glaucous?
> 
> I found this gull yesterday in northern Wisconsin,
> on Lake Superior. 
> 
> http://www.pbase.com/nanich/gull
> (photos are both resized and full size)
> 
> It had entirely white wingtips, a faded pale gray
> mantle, and was approximately the size of the
> Herring Gulls. The overall size was comparable, but
> the head and bill appeared somewhat smaller than the
> Herrings. 
> Eyes were yellow, legs were pink, and bill was pale
> yellow with a red spot on the lower bill.  There was
> one definite 1st winter Glaucous present, and this
> bird was nowhere near that big. At the same time,
> this bird seems to not appear small enough to be an
> Iceland, though I have never seen an Iceland. Many
> of the features seem to be intermediate between what
> you'd expect for an Iceland or a Glaucous.
> 
> I would very much appreciate any thoughts on this,
> 
> Nick Anich
> Ashland, WI
> 
> 
>      
>

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Nick;
 
I think this bird is definitely a Glaucous Gull likely a third cycle bird. The 
bill seems way to hefty for a Kumlien's but more importantly it has very short 
primary extension which is shown well in a couple of the pictures and can be 
compared to the longer primary extension of the HERG present in the foreground. 
Kumlien's also has a much longer primary extension and I do not think this 
trait is variable. The plumage is certainly well within range for a Glaucous. I 
have spent the last 6 weeks taking 1000s of pictures of Glaucous and Kumlien's 
Gulls at our local landfill and the structure of this bird to me strongly 
suggests a Glaucous Gull and not a Kumlien's or Herring. 

 
Kirk Zufelt
 
Kirk Zufelt
Sault Ste. Marie,Ontario
Canada


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For what it's worth I think this is a second cycle glaucous, albeit a small
one.
Even without getting into the purely specualtive area of subspecies I think
a small
female GLGU can be this sized (especially barrovianus?).

Image gull3 especially looks good for a GLGU in terms of
shape/structure/bulk
relative to Herring. The bill shape/size, head shape and eye placement all
also seem to fit GLGU.

Best




On Dec 19, 2007 9:26 AM, Pierre-Andr� CROCHET <
pierre-andre.crochet AT cefe.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Given the similarity in size and shape between this bird and the Am.
> Herring Gulls around it, I wonder if the intermediate appearance between
> Glaucous and Iceland cannot be explained by it being a leucistic Am Herring
> Gull...
> See European examples at
> http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=17692
> http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=14040
> http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6534
> http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=3792
> And others
> That seems worth considering for me...
> Pierre
>
>
>
>
> Pierre-Andr� Crochet
> CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive
> 1919, route de Mende
> 34293 Montpellier cedex 5
> France
> tel: +  (mobile)
>     +  (office)
> fax: + 
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Nick Anich
> Envoy� : 18 December 2007 21:07
> � : BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
> Objet : [BIRDWG01] Iceland or Glaucous?
>
> I found this gull yesterday in northern Wisconsin, on Lake Superior.
>
> http://www.pbase.com/nanich/gull
> (photos are both resized and full size)
>
> It had entirely white wingtips, a faded pale gray mantle, and was
> approximately the size of the Herring Gulls. The overall size was
> comparable, but the head and bill appeared somewhat smaller than the
> Herrings.
> Eyes were yellow, legs were pink, and bill was pale yellow with a red spot
> on the lower bill.  There was one definite 1st winter Glaucous present, and
> this bird was nowhere near that big. At the same time, this bird seems to
> not appear small enough to be an Iceland, though I have never seen an
> Iceland. Many of the features seem to be intermediate between what you'd
> expect for an Iceland or a Glaucous.
>
> I would very much appreciate any thoughts on this,
>
> Nick Anich
> Ashland, WI
>
>
>
> 
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-- 
Matt Sharp
Phila. PA

"All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the
parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you.  Therefore, if you
can"t get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not
use a hammer."
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Dear all,

Given the similarity in size and shape between this bird and the Am. Herring 
Gulls around it, I wonder if the intermediate appearance between Glaucous and 
Iceland cannot be explained by it being a leucistic Am Herring Gull... 

See European examples at 
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=17692
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=14040
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=6534
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=3792
And others
That seems worth considering for me...
Pierre
  



Pierre-Andr� Crochet
CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive
1919, route de Mende
34293 Montpellier cedex 5
France
tel: +  (mobile)
     +  (office)
fax: + 


-----Message d'origine-----
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Nick Anich 

Envoy� : 18 December 2007 21:07
� : BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Objet : [BIRDWG01] Iceland or Glaucous?

I found this gull yesterday in northern Wisconsin, on Lake Superior. 

http://www.pbase.com/nanich/gull
(photos are both resized and full size)

It had entirely white wingtips, a faded pale gray mantle, and was approximately 
the size of the Herring Gulls. The overall size was comparable, but the head 
and bill appeared somewhat smaller than the Herrings. 

Eyes were yellow, legs were pink, and bill was pale yellow with a red spot on 
the lower bill. There was one definite 1st winter Glaucous present, and this 
bird was nowhere near that big. At the same time, this bird seems to not appear 
small enough to be an Iceland, though I have never seen an Iceland. Many of the 
features seem to be intermediate between what you'd expect for an Iceland or a 
Glaucous. 


I would very much appreciate any thoughts on this,

Nick Anich
Ashland, WI


 
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James Rising's 2002 "Sparrows of the United States and Canada, The  
Photographic Guide" describes Sooty, Slate-colored and Red fox  
sparrows as having lower mandibles that are orange-yellow, yellowish  
and yellowish, respectively. Thick-billed is describe in an odd way  
(perhaps the copy was not edited properly), "lower mandible dull  
yellowish or blue-gray large-billed group, often dusky at the tip". I  
checked his earlier, 1996 "A Guide to the Identification and Natural  
History of the Sparrows of the United States and Canada" and Thick- 
billeds are included in the Slate-colored group because of similarity  
in appearance. The intro to the Passerella genus notes that molecular  
and vocal differences may indicate 4 species. In this account, the  
lower mandible is described, "...yellow, blue-gray (large-billed)  
often dusky at tip...". I can only guess that with the separation  
into four groups in the later publication, that copy was not edited  
correctly.

Byers, Curson & Olsson illustrates different bill colors on the  
plate, but doesn't back it up in the text.

That Pyle doesn't include bill color in the subspecies description  
leads me to think that it was not a useable variation for banders.  
But I'll let Peter address that.

Les Chibana
Volcano, HI
[no, there are no Fox Sparrows here...]


On Dec 18, 2007, at 4:53 PM, Rich Hoyer wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Can anything definitive be said about the bill color of the various  
> forms of Fox Sparrow? I had the impression that Sooty and Red Fox  
> Sparrows had yellow lower mandibles and that Slate-colored and  
> Thick-billed forms has bluish gray lower mandibles. But I can't  
> seem to find any useful reference to bill color in my library (the  
> best I could do are the Pyle guide and the Byers, Curson and Olsson  
> sparrow book). I saw a Fox Sparrow here in Tucson the other day  
> that I would have called Slate-colored based on plumage � quite  
> contrastingly gray head and face with little pattern and browner  
> wings and reddish tail. Yet it had a distinctly yellow-orange lower  
> mandible. It did not call, but it might have been the one bird that  
> gave one full song phrase.
>
> The usual form that winters here in small numbers is the Slate- 
> colored, and there were indeed a couple others of this form in Pima  
> Canyon on Sunday, though I didn't see them; one called, giving its  
> sharp, metallic note. They don't call very often. But we also had a  
> good Sooty Fox Sparrow too, all dark chocolate, yellow-orange lower  
> mandible and the heavy, thick "tuck" of a call note that I'm  
> familiar with from western Oregon.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rich
> ---
> Richard C. Hoyer
> Tucson, AZ
>
> Senior Field Leader, WINGS, Inc.
> http://www.wingsbirds.com
> ---
>
>
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And we routinely catch Sooties with all gray mandibles.

Rich Hoyer wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> Can anything definitive be said about the bill color of the various
> forms of Fox Sparrow? I had the impression that Sooty and Red Fox
> Sparrows had yellow lower mandibles and that Slate-colored and
> Thick-billed forms has bluish gray lower mandibles. But I can't seem to
> find any useful reference to bill color in my library (the best I could
> do are the Pyle guide and the Byers, Curson and Olsson sparrow book). I
> saw a Fox Sparrow here in Tucson the other day that I would have called
> Slate-colored based on plumage � quite contrastingly gray head and face
> with little pattern and browner wings and reddish tail. Yet it had a
> distinctly yellow-orange lower mandible. It did not call, but it might
> have been the one bird that gave one full song phrase.
> 
> The usual form that winters here in small numbers is the Slate-colored,
> and there were indeed a couple others of this form in Pima Canyon on
> Sunday, though I didn't see them; one called, giving its sharp,
> metallic note. They don't call very often. But we also had a good Sooty
> Fox Sparrow too, all dark chocolate, yellow-orange lower mandible and
> the heavy, thick "tuck" of a call note that I'm familiar with from
> western Oregon.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rich
> ---
> Richard C. Hoyer
> Tucson, AZ
> 
> Senior Field Leader, WINGS, Inc.
> http://www.wingsbirds.com
> ---
> 
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-- 
Mike Patterson               
Astoria, OR                    
celata AT pacifier.com  
 
Some thoughts on the perfect storm
http://www.surfbirds.com/blogs/mbalame/archives/2007/12/storm2007.html


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Rich:

My impression is Slate-colored and Thick-billed can both show yellow lower 
mandibles reasonably frequently. 


Nick



----- Original Message -----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 

To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU 
Sent: Tue Dec 18 20:53:05 2007
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Bill Color in Fox Sparrows

Hi All,

Can anything definitive be said about the bill color of the various 
forms of Fox Sparrow? I had the impression that Sooty and Red Fox 
Sparrows had yellow lower mandibles and that Slate-colored and 
Thick-billed forms has bluish gray lower mandibles. But I can't seem to 
find any useful reference to bill color in my library (the best I could 
do are the Pyle guide and the Byers, Curson and Olsson sparrow book). I 
saw a Fox Sparrow here in Tucson the other day that I would have called 
Slate-colored based on plumage – quite contrastingly gray head and face 
with little pattern and browner wings and reddish tail. Yet it had a 
distinctly yellow-orange lower mandible. It did not call, but it might 
have been the one bird that gave one full song phrase.

The usual form that winters here in small numbers is the Slate-colored, 
and there were indeed a couple others of this form in Pima Canyon on 
Sunday, though I didn't see them; one called, giving its sharp, 
metallic note. They don't call very often. But we also had a good Sooty 
Fox Sparrow too, all dark chocolate, yellow-orange lower mandible and 
the heavy, thick "tuck" of a call note that I'm familiar with from 
western Oregon.

Thanks,

Rich
---
Richard C. Hoyer
Tucson, AZ

Senior Field Leader, WINGS, Inc.
http://www.wingsbirds.com
---


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Hi All,

Can anything definitive be said about the bill color of the various 
forms of Fox Sparrow? I had the impression that Sooty and Red Fox 
Sparrows had yellow lower mandibles and that Slate-colored and 
Thick-billed forms has bluish gray lower mandibles. But I can't seem to 
find any useful reference to bill color in my library (the best I could 
do are the Pyle guide and the Byers, Curson and Olsson sparrow book). I 
saw a Fox Sparrow here in Tucson the other day that I would have called 
Slate-colored based on plumage � quite contrastingly gray head and face 
with little pattern and browner wings and reddish tail. Yet it had a 
distinctly yellow-orange lower mandible. It did not call, but it might 
have been the one bird that gave one full song phrase.

The usual form that winters here in small numbers is the Slate-colored, 
and there were indeed a couple others of this form in Pima Canyon on 
Sunday, though I didn't see them; one called, giving its sharp, 
metallic note. They don't call very often. But we also had a good Sooty 
Fox Sparrow too, all dark chocolate, yellow-orange lower mandible and 
the heavy, thick "tuck" of a call note that I'm familiar with from 
western Oregon.

Thanks,

Rich
---
Richard C. Hoyer
Tucson, AZ

Senior Field Leader, WINGS, Inc.
http://www.wingsbirds.com
---


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Is somebody color dyeing California Gulls? Here's an
adult with hot pink on the chest:

http://www.geocities.com/floyd_hayes/californiagull

I searched for a current project on the internet but
couldn't find anything, although I may have overlooked
something.

Floyd Hayes
Hidden Valley Lake, CA


 
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    Hello.  The rounded head and small bill say Iceland to me.  So does 
overall size relative to (Amercan) Herring Gull ..smithsonianus.. A small 
female Glaucous can strongly suggest Iceland, and, of course, will present 
no black or gray markings in the outer primaries (vs. ..kumlieni..)  But the 
bill of the Wisconsin bird doesn't look anywhere near large enough for 
Glaucous.  And the apparent absence of dark markings in the primaries does 
not eliminate Iceland/Kumlien's Gull.  I propose 2nd winter Iceland.  Maybe 
I should duck.

    Yours,

    Jim Barton
    Cambridge, MA 


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I found this gull yesterday in northern Wisconsin, on
Lake Superior. 

http://www.pbase.com/nanich/gull
(photos are both resized and full size)

It had entirely white wingtips, a faded pale gray
mantle, and was approximately the size of the Herring
Gulls. The overall size was comparable, but the head
and bill appeared somewhat smaller than the Herrings. 
Eyes were yellow, legs were pink, and bill was pale
yellow with a red spot on the lower bill.  There was
one definite 1st winter Glaucous present, and this
bird was nowhere near that big. At the same time, this
bird seems to not appear small enough to be an
Iceland, though I have never seen an Iceland. Many of
the features seem to be intermediate between what
you'd expect for an Iceland or a Glaucous.

I would very much appreciate any thoughts on this,

Nick Anich
Ashland, WI


 
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First, my thanks to all who took the time and trouble to comment on 
this warbler ID problem -- there were many responses, and I've not 
been able to thank everyone personally.

Having followed all this fascinating and instructive discussion, I 
have returned to my original (albeit hasty) decision, that the bird 
is an Orange-crowned Warbler.   Leaving aside for the moment the 
actual ID discussion, the manner in which it arose is also 
illuminating.   I was looking for a different bird, and had a quick 
encounter with an unexpected warbler.  My initial and quick 
impression was that it was an Orange-crowned Warbler, and this was 
based entirely on shape, size, movement, and expectation.  I took the 
photo not to document a rarity or solve an ID issue, but simply to 
practise using my new point-and-shoot camera.

I relate this tale not to suggest that everyone go with their first 
impression (I've been wrong many times in such situations -- I was 
merely lucky this time), but to remind myself to not take any bird 
for granted, and to look and learn.  I'm indebted to Ian McLaren who 
questioned my initial ID, and then to Bruce Mactavish who questioned 
the questioner.  And now I'm indebted to you all, as you've turned 
this into a wonder warbler lesson.

I've appended the web page to include a selection of the more 
thorough comments.   The page, once again, is:

http://maybank.tripod.com/images/warbler.htm

It's good to keep an open mind, in birding as in life.

Merry Christmas to all, and great birding challenges in 2008.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blake Maybank
maybank AT ns.sympatico.ca

Editor, "Nova Scotia Birds"

author, "Birding Sites of Nova Scotia"
http://maybank.tripod.com/BSNS.htm

White's Lake, Nova Scotia, Canada 


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The Redpoll Challenge: This is a major redpoll winter in southern 
Canada and the United States. The legendary George North of Hamilton, 
Ontario, once saw all four North American redpoll subspecies in the 
same flock on 23 March 1958 near Hamilton (North 1983, Curry 2006). 
Fifty years later this could be the winter to do it again. On 15 
December 2007, Ron and Doug Tozer found a big "snowball" Hornemann's" 
Hoary Redpoll (nominate hornemanni) on the Minden Christmas Bird 
Count. This is the rarest redpoll in southern Canada. On 14 December 
2007, I saw two "Greater" Common Redpolls (rostrata) at our feeders 
in Toronto and there have been several other recent reports. With 
these two High Arctic subspecies and probably record numbers of 
"Southern" Hoary Redpolls (exilipes) in flocks of "Southern" Common 
Redpoll (nominate flammea), we have all four North American 
subspecies in southern Ontario this winter. Below I summarize the 
basic information needed to understand and identify redpolls with 
links to photos.

Taxonomy: The American Ornithologists' Union (1998) recognizes two 
species: Common Redpoll (Carduelis flammea) and Hoary Redpoll (C. 
hornemanni). Each has two subspecies (races) breeding in North 
America. Discussion about lumping or splitting redpolls has been off 
the "radar screen" in recent years. The four subspecies are described below.

1. "Southern" Common Redpoll (nominate flammea): This is the 
commonest of the four subspecies in southern Ontario. It is the 
standard to which the other three are compared. In most plumages, it 
is noticeably streaked on the sides, undertail coverts and rump. 
However, adult males in winter have more contrasting whiter rumps 
(fewer streaks and often pinkish) than on worn breeding birds. Adult 
males are pink-breasted. First year males are somewhat darker and 
often washed with light pink. Adult females usually lack pink 
(sometimes tinged) and first year females are the darkest and most 
heavily streaked of the four age/sex classes.

2. "Greater" Common Redpoll (rostrata): This large and dark 
subspecies breeds on Baffin Island and Greenland. Greater Redpolls 
are a winter visitor in small numbers to the southern parts of 
eastern Canada from Ontario to Newfoundland (Godfrey 1986) and to the 
northeastern United States. Greaters are more frequent than Hoarys in 
some winters (Pittaway 1992). The Greater is larger (averages 14.0 cm 
compared to 12.5 cm for flammea) and heavier. Other field marks are 
the Greater's thicker bill and somewhat darker and browner coloration 
with conspicuous heavy streaking on the underparts usually extending 
to the undertail coverts. Adult male Greaters have "red of underparts 
less extensive and less intense" than flammea (Godfrey 1986). Males 
lack red on the malar area, which flammea males usually have (Beadle 
and Rising 2006). Some observers describe Greaters as House 
Finch-like. See the excellent identification article on Greater 
Redpoll by Beadle and Henshaw (1996) in Birders Journal 5(1):44-47, 
illustrated by Beadle. The differences between the two Common Redpoll 
subspecies are usually obvious when the two are together for 
comparison (Peterson . "Southern" Hoary Redpoll (exilipes): This subspecies breeds in the 
Low Arctic and much of its range overlaps that of the "Southern" 
Common Redpoll (flammea). It is the much commoner Hoary subspecies, 
and is similar in size to the flammea Common Redpoll. During redpoll 
flight years, it is usually possible to find a few classic adult male 
exilipes Hoarys. Compared to the "Southern" Common Redpoll, they are 
more frosted with white rumps, have lightly streaked flanks and very 
lightly streaked to pure white undertail coverts. Adult females and 
especially first year females can be noticeably streaked. Exilipes 
Hoary is similar in size to flammea Common, but may look slightly 
larger because of its whiter plumage. Hoarys have shorter, more 
obtuse (stubby) bills imparting a distinctive "pushed in face" 
appearance. Many females are identifiable by overall paler coloration 
and bill shape. Individuals appearing intermediate between exilipes 
and flammea are best left unidentified.

4. "Hornemann's" Hoary Redpoll (nominate hornemanni): This is the 
largest, palest and rarest redpoll. Hornemann's breeds in the 
Canadian High Arctic Islands and Greenland and is a great rarity in 
southern Ontario and Quebec. Hornemann's is larger (averages 14.0 cm) 
than "Southern" Hoary (exilipes) which averages 12.5 cm. It is whiter 
with less streaking on the sides and flanks and has immaculate white 
undertail coverts. Adult males have less pink than exilipes, some 
showing only a trace of pink suffusion on the breast. Females and 
first year birds are recognizable if compared directly to the two 
small subspecies, flammea and exilipes, by their larger size. See the 
excellent article on redpoll identification by Czaplak (1995) in 
Birding 27(6):446-457. His photo of Hornemann's on page 448 is 
correctly identified in my opinion. Note larger size of the 
Hornemann's in the photo in American Birds 42(2):239, which is 
reproduced on Jean's website link below. See also Doug Tozer's photo 
and Ron Tozer's detailed description of the recent Ontario 
"Hornemann's" on Jean Iron's website link below. See David Sibley's 
website link below.

A. Why is there so much plumage variation in redpolls?  A flock of 
one subspecies of the Common Redpoll (flammea) will show four plumage 
types: adult males, adult females, first year males and first year 
females. Since there are four redpoll subspecies, a large flock 
potentially could have 16 plumage types, plus considerable individual 
variation.

B. What is the Greenland Redpoll? Historically, the name Greenland 
has NOT been used in North America to describe the rostrata "Greater" 
Common Redpoll (Peterson 1947, Todd 1963, Bent 1968, Terres 1991, 
etc.). However, Greenland Redpoll is the European name for "Greater" 
Common Redpoll (Newton 1972, Jonsson 1993, etc.). Most North American 
publications use Greenland Redpoll for "Hornemann's" Hoary Redpoll 
(Nash 1905, Macoun and Macoun 1909, Taverner 1953, North 1983, etc.). 
The name Greenland causes confusion. Most of our Hornemann's Hoary 
Redpolls and Greater Common Redpolls are coming from Canada, not 
Greenland. To avoid confusion, it is preferable to include the 
subspecies scientific name after the common name, particularly when 
first mentioned: (flammea), (rostrata), (hornemanni) and (exilipes).

TAKE THE REDPOLL CHALLENGE: This is the first winter in decades to 
match George North's Ontario record of four redpoll subspecies in one 
day. Even more amazing, all four were in the same flock. I am not 
aware that North's record has been matched in southern Canada or the 
northern United States. However, Roland C. Clement saw all four 
subspecies on 12 March 1944 at Indian House Lake in northern Quebec 
(Lat 56 15' 0 N, Long 64 42' 0 W) south of Ungava Bay close to 
Labrador. Clement in Todd (1963) reported "a feeding flock of mixed 
migrants that contained ten rostrata, thirty flammea, two hornemanni, 
and about six exilipes."

Three websites with redpoll information and photos.
Jean Iron 
Tommy Thompson Park Bird Research Station in Toronto 
David Sibley  Scroll down to 
Tuesday December 4.

Acknowledgements: I thank Michel Gosselin of the Canadian Museum of 
Nature for information on redpoll taxonomy and identification. Doug 
Tozer kindly provided his photo of the recent Minden "Hornemann's" 
Redpoll. Jean Iron and Ron Tozer made many helpful suggestions.

Literature Cited: I can supply full references.

Ron Pittaway
Minden and Toronto ON


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All:

I've enjoyed and learned from the exchanges. As I originally started the hare 
by 

questioning Blake Maybank's Orange-crowned designation, I'll offer my third
cent's worth. (How's that for mixing metaphors.)

I guess I'll have to switch to the O-c Warbler camp. I do see, now, a hint of
yellowish supercilium, althohough try as I might, don't see an eeyering splt
beyond some hints on one on Nashville's. I'm unsure about shape criteria in
such a fluffed bird, although agree the tail is long. Although I've seen some
large and bright eye features on numbers of Orange-crowneds here in late fall
and winter, they've always been crescents rather than eyerings. There have also
been some markedly and uniformly gray-headed birds, bright-yellow below, that
might answer to orestera. This one is quite bright yellow below (given the
breast in shadow), and doesn't look like to me our usual dull fall celata from
the eastern boreal/taiga.

One footnote.  Following up Kimball G's authoritative pronouncement, I do note
that his and Jon Dunn's "Warblers" mentions that OCWA legs are "slaty brown,
grayish, or pale brown, palest on soles of feet and toe pads" whereas NAWA they
are "dark gray-brown to dull blackish; soles of feet dull yellow." If you look
closely at the NS bird, you'll see blackish legs and yellow soles, whatever
that means.

Best holiday wishes, Ian

Ian A. McLaren
Biology Department
Dalhousie University
Halifax, NS Canada B3H 4J1


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Folks

  Kimball�s information on Calavera�s Warbler are interesting, and entirely
congruent with my experience. I am no expert on the subject, but my gut
feeling is that ridgwayi (Calaveras Warbler) is actually sister to
Virginia�s, and this clade is sister to Nashville. The fact that ridgwayi
and Nashville look an awful lot alike is one of those wrenches that
evolution has thrown in to confuse us. I know that there is a team
diligently working on parulid systematics, I hope they sample all members of
this group. 

BTW � it also looks like an Orange-crowned to me, this is a hideously
variable species from a continent wide perspective. 

Cheers 

Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
chucao AT coastside.net
Half Moon Bay, California
 
Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
www.fieldguides.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Kimball Garrett
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:20 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nashville or Orange-crowned -- warbler ID assistance

Folks,

It seems that either "Dunn" or "Garrett" should chime in, and I guess
it's me since Dunn does not usually follow these discussions.  As with
any single photo ID issue, I have nothing definitive to say, though I
have to agree with the Orange-crowned Warbler camp that this bird looks
more like that species than a Nashville.  Take away the striking
eyering, and there is really little to suggest this is anything other
than an Orange-crown.  And I agree with those who have observed that
Nashville eyerings are not likely to be (are never?) broken in front and
back; nor should Nashvilles show even a hint of a dark transocular line
as in this bird (though a slight pale supraloral is fine for Nashville).
Furthermore, the grayish on the chest, if really present, certainly does
not fit any Nashville.

Even the dullest Nashvilles should show rather bright yellow undertail
coverts (which are always at least tied for the brightest yellow part of
the bird in Nashville); I see rather pale yellow there in Blake's photo.

I did want to make one comment about Nashville subspecies.  In most
respects, western (ridgwayi) Nashvilles (aka "Calaveras Warblers") are
like nominate Nashvilles that are tweaked a little bit toward a
Virginia's Warbler.  By this I mean that they are longer-tailed than
nominate Nashville (though shorter-tailed than Virginia's), they bob
their tails more (nearly as much as Virginia's), they are intermediate
in grayness of the back, and their yellow tends to be clearer (less
suffused with greenish).  Furthermore, ridgwayi Nashvilles tend to have
more extensive whitish on the lower underparts than nominate birds, but
there is so much variation and overlap in this character that I wouldn't
put much weight on it. Even calls of western Nashville are somewhat
scratchier (towards Virginia's) than those of the nominate subspecies.
Though the above doesn't expand much on what is in "Warblers", I did
want to stress that the perplexing appearance of the Nova Scotia bird
should not be explained by its being a Nashville of "western" origin.  I
chalk the confusion up to photographic conditions that over-emphasized
the boldness of the eyering.

Kimball

Kimball L. Garrett
Ornithology Collections Manager
Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
900 Exposition Blvd.
Los Angeles CA 90007

 FAX
kgarrett AT nhm.org


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Folks,

It seems that either "Dunn" or "Garrett" should chime in, and I guess
it's me since Dunn does not usually follow these discussions.  As with
any single photo ID issue, I have nothing definitive to say, though I
have to agree with the Orange-crowned Warbler camp that this bird looks
more like that species than a Nashville.  Take away the striking
eyering, and there is really little to suggest this is anything other
than an Orange-crown.  And I agree with those who have observed that
Nashville eyerings are not likely to be (are never?) broken in front and
back; nor should Nashvilles show even a hint of a dark transocular line
as in this bird (though a slight pale supraloral is fine for Nashville).
Furthermore, the grayish on the chest, if really present, certainly does
not fit any Nashville.

Even the dullest Nashvilles should show rather bright yellow undertail
coverts (which are always at least tied for the brightest yellow part of
the bird in Nashville); I see rather pale yellow there in Blake's photo.

I did want to make one comment about Nashville subspecies.  In most
respects, western (ridgwayi) Nashvilles (aka "Calaveras Warblers") are
like nominate Nashvilles that are tweaked a little bit toward a
Virginia's Warbler.  By this I mean that they are longer-tailed than
nominate Nashville (though shorter-tailed than Virginia's), they bob
their tails more (nearly as much as Virginia's), they are intermediate
in grayness of the back, and their yellow tends to be clearer (less
suffused with greenish).  Furthermore, ridgwayi Nashvilles tend to have
more extensive whitish on the lower underparts than nominate birds, but
there is so much variation and overlap in this character that I wouldn't
put much weight on it. Even calls of western Nashville are somewhat
scratchier (towards Virginia's) than those of the nominate subspecies.
Though the above doesn't expand much on what is in "Warblers", I did
want to stress that the perplexing appearance of the Nova Scotia bird
should not be explained by its being a Nashville of "western" origin.  I
chalk the confusion up to photographic conditions that over-emphasized
the boldness of the eyering.

Kimball

Kimball L. Garrett
Ornithology Collections Manager
Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
900 Exposition Blvd.
Los Angeles CA 90007

 FAX
kgarrett AT nhm.org


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I am in the Orange-crowned Warbler camp.  The white eye ring IS broken.
All fall Orange-crowned Warblers we see in Newfoundland have quite
strong broken white eye rings. It may be that fall Orange-crowned
Warblers from the Labrador breeding range (where common) have whiter eye
rings than birds even in central parts of the breeding range of celata.
In breeding season eye rings of breeding Labrador OCWA are yellow. The
gray wash across the breast is right for OCWA but should be yellow on
Nashville.  Even dull Nashvilles look brighter and cleaner yellow on the
under parts than this bird. The dull yellow under parts is right for
OCWA. The long tail, long bodied look is good for OCWA and not like the
stubby more rounded Nashville shape. There is a hint of a dark lore and
a faint but definite hint a pale supercilium extending slightly rear of
the eye which is right for OCWA but not for Nashville. If the bird
wasn't so brightly exposed this might show up more.   

Bruce 

Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland
Canada
bruce.mactavish1 AT nf.sympatico.ca


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Blake Maybank
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:13 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nashville or Orange-crowned -- warbler ID assistance

I am seeking comments regarding the ID of a winter warbler here in 
Halifax, Nova Scotia.  Details of the sighting, and the sole 
photograph, may be found here:

http://maybank.tripod.com/images/warbler.htm

Cheers,


------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Blake Maybank
maybank AT ns.sympatico.ca

Editor, "Nova Scotia Birds"

author, "Birding Sites of Nova Scotia"
http://maybank.tripod.com/BSNS.htm

White's Lake, Nova Scotia, Canada 


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Hi All,

What with the brokenish eye-ring and grayish tones around the nape, 
crown, face and throat mixed with olive in all regions, as well as the 
continuity of olive from the shoulders to the sides of the breast I 
think it is an Orange-crowned Warbler.

I think a Nashville would show an unambiguously solid eyering, with not 
even a hint of pinch-off at the rear and front as shown on this bird, 
and there would be more of a contrast between the more uniform upper 
parts (more olive, less gray) and underside (more yellow).

Good Birding,

Rich
---
Richard C. Hoyer
Tucson, AZ

Senior Field Leader, WINGS, Inc.
http://www.wingsbirds.com
---


On Dec 17, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Alan Contreras wrote:

The darker photo is helpful.  I think it shows that the white below is
really there, and there is a slight hint of yellow under the tail.

In the Department of Possibly Unhelpful Details, the darker photo 
allows us
to see some dark dots on the crown that could be related to an incipient
crown patch.  To me they look too dark and contrasty for OCWA.  On the 
other
hand they could be really big mites.

What does Rich Hoyer think of this photo? I know he's lurking out there 
and
sees zillions of both species.

-- 
Alan Contreras
EUGENE, OREGON

�Be naughty, save Santa a trip.�

acontrer AT mindspring.com
www.OREGONREVIEW.BLOGSPOT.COM � Social Commentary
www.CONTRERASBIRDS.BLOGSPOT.COM � Current Bird Photos


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Ok, here I go again, poking a hornet's nest with a stick.    However many
OCWAs I ever see in my life, the number will probably not match the number
Kenn has seen in any given year, so I can't speak to all the OCWA variations
out there.

However, I will comment about Blake's photo, and make a few observations .
The light is coming in from the right, at a fairly low angle, but not too
low - look at the sun reflection in the bird's eye, as well as the shadow of
the small stick crossing the larger branch at 6 o'clock in the photo.   If
there were significant light reflecting from snow cover, we would see more
detail and possibly highlights on the undersides of the branches.   The dark
mark at the rear of the eyering appears to be a shadow of the upper feathers
(eyelid?) cast on the lower feather.    I will have to say I've never seen
an OCWA with such a strong eyering.

The near-vertical shadow across the bird's body retains the same tone
throughout, and looking at a large version of the photo (nice shot, Blake!)
the whitish belly definitely carries through the shadowed area and even
sticks out to the left.   I am certain that the belly is whiter than the
sides and breast.    The dark-ish area behind the bird's eye is enhanced by
shadowing created by the contour of the feathers, while there does appear to
be
a slightly darker feather color immediately behind the eye.   Do all OCWAs
show a post-ocular dark line / spot composed of feathers that are darker
than the nearby cheek and temple?   Do any NAWAs?   Checking a few specimens
should answer that.    Also, I cannot make out any definite streaking on the
underparts that are pigment, not contour shadows - Dunn & Garrett say
"usually" streaked, but I'd be interested to
hear if there are specimens that are totally unstreaked.

Here's where I have a definite failing - I am a white male that has trouble
with greens and reds, but aren't the primaries atop the base of the tail (to
the right of the branch) grayish in comparison?    Here's a knucklehead
observation - looking at the plates in Dunn & Garrett, my eyes think the
fall female Virginia's Warbler looks pretty inviting.

Yes, the head looks blocky, but if I was up there at this time of year, I'd
pull my head back and fluff my feathers, too.    This is where a series of
photos would be nice.

Kenn, be gentle on me..... ;-)

Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor AT att.net


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kenn Kaufman" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nashville or Orange-crowned -- warbler ID assistance


> I come to this question from the background of having lived for many years
> in Arizona, where observers tried to turn Orange-crowns into Nashvilles
> every winter; we had to look critically at a lot of Orange-crowns there.
> The bird in Blake's photo is a tricky individual and I believe there are
> some tricks of light happening here as well, but taking all that into
> consideration, I think it's an Orange-crowned Warbler.  It looks much too
> long-tailed for a Nashville and perhaps too square-headed as well.  There
is
> a lot of bright light shining on the bird, coming from a position low and
to
> the right of the observer -- look at the position of the shadow of the
twig
> on the bird's side and even across its belly, suggesting that the source
of
> light was very low.  (Blake, was there snow on the ground reflecting light
> up at the bird?)  Taking that lighting into account, I think the white on
> the belly is an illusion, and I think the chest was probably moderately
dark
> (more so than it appears here) and not the very pale lemon yellow that we
> usually see on the drabbest Nashvilles.  Admittedly the eye-ring looks
more
> complete than on the typical Orange-crown, but it's not outside the range
of
> normal variation, and I also see a hint of a pale supercilium (which you
can
> also get on the dullest Nashvilles, I know).  The shape of the bird and
the
> overall distribution of color as I judge it to be both suggest
> Orange-crowned Warbler.  In this case I'm inclined to think that the
effects
> of lighting fooled the camera, so to speak, but didn't fool the observer,
> who compensated for momentary illusions and identified the bird correctly.
>
> Kenn Kaufman
> Rocky Ridge, Ohio
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Blake Maybank" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:43 AM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nashville or Orange-crowned -- warbler ID assistance
>
>
> >I am seeking comments regarding the ID of a winter warbler here in
Halifax,
> >Nova Scotia.  Details of the sighting, and the sole photograph, may be
> >found here:
> >
> > http://maybank.tripod.com/images/warbler.htm
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> > Blake Maybank
> > maybank AT ns.sympatico.ca
> >
> > Editor, "Nova Scotia Birds"
> >
> > author, "Birding Sites of Nova Scotia"
> > http://maybank.tripod.com/BSNS.htm
> >
> > White's Lake, Nova Scotia, Canada
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
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Those of us who live on the left coast are likely to balk at the
idea of an Orenge-crowned with that much white around the eye.
We're used to _lutescens_ which invariably have yellow eye-rings
and even _orestera_ which at least migrate through in large number
are never immaculately white.

But _celata_, well those are eastern vagrants to us.  We're likely
lean toward personal experience too much on this call.  

I agree with those who are calling this an Orange-crowned.  Pull
the white eye-ring out of the equation and find me any other
field marks that point to Nashville....

Here hare some in hand OCWA caught on the Oregon North Coast...
http://home.pacifier.com/~neawanna/observatory/ocwa.html

Blake Maybank wrote:
> 
> I am seeking comments regarding the ID of a winter warbler here in
> Halifax, Nova Scotia.  Details of the sighting, and the sole
> photograph, may be found here:
> 
> http://maybank.tripod.com/images/warbler.htm
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Blake Maybank
> maybank AT ns.sympatico.ca
> 
> Editor, "Nova Scotia Birds"
> 
> author, "Birding Sites of Nova Scotia"
> http://maybank.tripod.com/BSNS.htm
> 
> White's Lake, Nova Scotia, Canada
> 


-- 
Mike Patterson               
Astoria, OR                    
celata AT pacifier.com  
 
Some thoughts on the perfect storm
http://www.surfbirds.com/blogs/mbalame/archives/2007/12/storm2007.html


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The darker photo is helpful.  I think it shows that the white below is
really there, and there is a slight hint of yellow under the tail.

In the Department of Possibly Unhelpful Details, the darker photo allows us
to see some dark dots on the crown that could be related to an incipient
crown patch.  To me they look too dark and contrasty for OCWA.  On the other
hand they could be really big mites.

What does Rich Hoyer think of this photo? I know he's lurking out there and
sees zillions of both species.

-- 
Alan Contreras
EUGENE, OREGON

�Be naughty, save Santa a trip.�

acontrer AT mindspring.com
www.OREGONREVIEW.BLOGSPOT.COM � Social Commentary
www.CONTRERASBIRDS.BLOGSPOT.COM � Current Bird Photos





> From: Blake Maybank 
> Reply-To: Blake Maybank 
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:18:
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nashville or Orange-crowned -- warbler ID assistance
> 
> At 03:25 PM 17/12/2007, Ken wrote:
>> The bird in Blake's photo is a tricky individual and I believe there
>> are some tricks of light happening here as well, but taking all that
>> into consideration, I think it's an Orange-crowned Warbler.  It
>> looks much too long-tailed for a Nashville and perhaps too
>> square-headed as well.  There is a lot of bright light shining on
>> the bird, coming from a position low and to the right of the
>> observer -- look at the position of the shadow of the twig on the
>> bird's side and even across its belly, suggesting that the source of
>> light was very low.  (Blake, was there snow on the ground reflecting
>> light up at the bird?)  Taking that lighting into account, I think
>> the white on the belly is an illusion, and I think the chest was
>> probably moderately dark (more so than it appears here) and not the
>> very pale lemon yellow that we usually see on the drabbest Nashvilles.
> 
> In light of Ken's thoughtful analysis, I've appended the web page.
> 
> First, a quick explanation.   The bird was photographed at about 0900
> local time, about 90 minutes after sunrise.   The location is at 44.6
> degrees north, so the sun was quite low in the sky.   While there was
> snow cover, I'd judge there was little reflection.  I certainly felt
> no need for sunglasses.   More to the point, where the bird was
> photographed the land sloped down away from the direction of the
> sunlight, and the snow below the bird was mostly in shade.
> 
> I took the photo with a new acquisition, a point-and-shoot camera
> with 18X optical zoom, and built in stabilizer.  The ISO was set to
> 100.  I shoot in a RAW / JPEG setting, and convert the RAW image to a
> TIFF file, then made changes in Photoshop.  I had underexposed by 2/3
> of a stop to increase available shutter speed, and used Photoshop
> only to adjust the levels back to neutral.   I also sharpened it a
> very small amount with Unsharp Mask.
> 
> I can't place the TIFF file on the web page as it is so large, but I
> placed the original JPEG file, in two versions, cropped and
> uncropped.   (The JPEG is a reference shot, taken at the same time as
> the RAW file).  Anyone who wishes to play with the images is free to
> do so.   The RAW file is immense.
> 
> This has been very instructive so far.   I await developements. . .
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Blake Maybank
> maybank AT ns.sympatico.ca
> 
> Editor, "Nova Scotia Birds"
> 
> author, "Birding Sites of Nova Scotia"
> http://maybank.tripod.com/BSNS.htm
> 
> White's Lake, Nova Scotia, Canada
> 
> 
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I would have to go with Orange-crowned Warbler.  Structurally,  the 
proportionately large head and long tail suggest OCWA. Plumage-wise, the 
low-contrast 

plumage, slight supercilium, and slightly  darker gray lores points to OCWA 
although I admit I have no experience  with western NAWA.  To my eye, the eye 
ring does not look  complete and appears slightly broken on each side.  
Similarly, the "surprised" look as a result of a bright, full eye ring on NAWAs 

does not seem to be apparent here. Though as mentioned numerous times on this 

list, you can only do so much with  one photo.
 
 
Jim Pawlicki
Amherst, NY   
 
 
In a message dated 12/17/2007 9:44:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
maybank AT NS.SYMPATICO.CA writes:

I am  seeking comments regarding the ID of a winter warbler here in 
Halifax,  Nova Scotia.  Details of the sighting, and the sole 
photograph, may  be found  here:

http://maybank.tripod.com/images/warbler.htm

Cheers,


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blake  Maybank
maybank AT ns.sympatico.ca

Editor, "Nova Scotia  Birds"

author, "Birding Sites of Nova  Scotia"
http://maybank.tripod.com/BSNS.htm

White's Lake, Nova  Scotia, Canada 


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At 03:25 PM 17/12/2007, Ken wrote:
>The bird in Blake's photo is a tricky individual and I believe there 
>are some tricks of light happening here as well, but taking all that 
>into consideration, I think it's an Orange-crowned Warbler.  It 
>looks much too long-tailed for a Nashville and perhaps too 
>square-headed as well.  There is a lot of bright light shining on 
>the bird, coming from a position low and to the right of the 
>observer -- look at the position of the shadow of the twig on the 
>bird's side and even across its belly, suggesting that the source of 
>light was very low.  (Blake, was there snow on the ground reflecting 
>light up at the bird?)  Taking that lighting into account, I think 
>the white on the belly is an illusion, and I think the chest was 
>probably moderately dark (more so than it appears here) and not the 
>very pale lemon yellow that we usually see on the drabbest Nashvilles.

In light of Ken's thoughtful analysis, I've appended the web page.

First, a quick explanation.   The bird was photographed at about 0900 
local time, about 90 minutes after sunrise.   The location is at 44.6 
degrees north, so the sun was quite low in the sky.   While there was 
snow cover, I'd judge there was little reflection.  I certainly felt 
no need for sunglasses.   More to the point, where the bird was 
photographed the land sloped down away from the direction of the 
sunlight, and the snow below the bird was mostly in shade.

I took the photo with a new acquisition, a point-and-shoot camera 
with 18X optical zoom, and built in stabilizer.  The ISO was set to 
100.  I shoot in a RAW / JPEG setting, and convert the RAW image to a 
TIFF file, then made changes in Photoshop.  I had underexposed by 2/3 
of a stop to increase available shutter speed, and used Photoshop 
only to adjust the levels back to neutral.   I also sharpened it a 
very small amount with Unsharp Mask.

I can't place the TIFF file on the web page as it is so large, but I 
placed the original JPEG file, in two versions, cropped and 
uncropped.   (The JPEG is a reference shot, taken at the same time as 
the RAW file).  Anyone who wishes to play with the images is free to 
do so.   The RAW file is immense.

This has been very instructive so far.   I await developements. . .

Cheers,


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blake Maybank
maybank AT ns.sympatico.ca

Editor, "Nova Scotia Birds"

author, "Birding Sites of Nova Scotia"
http://maybank.tripod.com/BSNS.htm

White's Lake, Nova Scotia, Canada 


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Blake and Bird ID People,

I vote for Nashville Warbler, although I agree with Ian that it's
"exceptionally drab". I've never seen an Orange-crowned with such a distinct
eye-ring, and the bird also lacks an eye-stripe, which should be evident on
most if not all Orange-crowns. The bill also looks quite slight to me, which
would fit Nashville better, although the measurements in "Birds of Canada"
suggest that the difference in bill length is quite small.

Wayne C. Weber
Delta, BC
contopus AT telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Blake Maybank
Sent: December-17-07 6:43 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nashville or Orange-crowned -- warbler ID assistance

I am seeking comments regarding the ID of a winter warbler here in 
Halifax, Nova Scotia.  Details of the sighting, and the sole 
photograph, may be found here:

http://maybank.tripod.com/images/warbler.htm

Cheers,


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Blake Maybank
maybank AT ns.sympatico.ca

Editor, "Nova Scotia Birds"

author, "Birding Sites of Nova Scotia"
http://maybank.tripod.com/BSNS.htm

White's Lake, Nova Scotia, Canada 


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I hadn't thought of the reflected snow effect.  We don't get much reflecting
snow in Oregon, at least not where it can reflect on a warbler !  I'm still
dubious about the white belly, though I concede that a Nashville might be
expected to show some yellow under the tail.  It's a heck of an eye ring.

-- 
Alan Contreras
EUGENE, OREGON

�Be naughty, save Santa a trip.�

acontrer AT mindspring.com
www.OREGONREVIEW.BLOGSPOT.COM � Social Commentary
www.CONTRERASBIRDS.BLOGSPOT.COM � Current Bird Photos





> From: Kenn Kaufman 
> Reply-To: Kenn Kaufman 
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:25:
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nashville or Orange-crowned -- warbler ID assistance
> 
> I come to this question from the background of having lived for many years
> in Arizona, where observers tried to turn Orange-crowns into Nashvilles
> every winter; we had to look critically at a lot of Orange-crowns there.
> The bird in Blake's photo is a tricky individual and I believe there are
> some tricks of light happening here as well, but taking all that into
> consideration, I think it's an Orange-crowned Warbler.  It looks much too
> long-tailed for a Nashville and perhaps too square-headed as well.  There is
> a lot of bright light shining on the bird, coming from a position low and to
> the right of the observer -- look at the position of the shadow of the twig
> on the bird's side and even across its belly, suggesting that the source of
> light was very low.  (Blake, was there snow on the ground reflecting light
> up at the bird?)  Taking that lighting into account, I think the white on
> the belly is an illusion, and I think the chest was probably moderately dark
> (more so than it appears here) and not the very pale lemon yellow that we
> usually see on the drabbest Nashvilles.  Admittedly the eye-ring looks more
> complete than on the typical Orange-crown, but it's not outside the range of
> normal variation, and I also see a hint of a pale supercilium (which you can
> also get on the dullest Nashvilles, I know).  The shape of the bird and the
> overall distribution of color as I judge it to be both suggest
> Orange-crowned Warbler.  In this case I'm inclined to think that the effects
> of lighting fooled the camera, so to speak, but didn't fool the observer,
> who compensated for momentary illusions and identified the bird correctly.
> 
> Kenn Kaufman
> Rocky Ridge, Ohio
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Blake Maybank" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:43 AM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nashville or Orange-crowned -- warbler ID assistance
> 
> 
>> I am seeking comments regarding the ID of a winter warbler here in Halifax,
>> Nova Scotia.  Details of the sighting, and the sole photograph, may be
>> found here:
>> 
>> http://maybank.tripod.com/images/warbler.htm
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> 
>> 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

>> Blake Maybank
>> maybank AT ns.sympatico.ca
>> 
>> Editor, "Nova Scotia Birds"
>> 
>> author, "Birding Sites of Nova Scotia"
>> http://maybank.tripod.com/BSNS.htm
>> 
>> White's Lake, Nova Scotia, Canada
> 
> 
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: 
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I come to this question from the background of having lived for many years 
in Arizona, where observers tried to turn Orange-crowns into Nashvilles 
every winter; we had to look critically at a lot of Orange-crowns there. 
The bird in Blake's photo is a tricky individual and I believe there are 
some tricks of light happening here as well, but taking all that into 
consideration, I think it's an Orange-crowned Warbler.  It looks much too 
long-tailed for a Nashville and perhaps too square-headed as well.  There is 
a lot of bright light shining on the bird, coming from a position low and to 
the right of the observer -- look at the position of the shadow of the twig 
on the bird's side and even across its belly, suggesting that the source of 
light was very low.  (Blake, was there snow on the ground reflecting light 
up at the bird?)  Taking that lighting into account, I think the white on 
the belly is an illusion, and I think the chest was probably moderately dark 
(more so than it appears here) and not the very pale lemon yellow that we 
usually see on the drabbest Nashvilles.  Admittedly the eye-ring looks more 
complete than on the typical Orange-crown, but it's not outside the range of 
normal variation, and I also see a hint of a pale supercilium (which you can 
also get on the dullest Nashvilles, I know).  The shape of the bird and the 
overall distribution of color as I judge it to be both suggest 
Orange-crowned Warbler.  In this case I'm inclined to think that the effects 
of lighting fooled the camera, so to speak, but didn't fool the observer, 
who compensated for momentary illusions and identified the bird correctly.

Kenn Kaufman
Rocky Ridge, Ohio


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Blake Maybank" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:43 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nashville or Orange-crowned -- warbler ID assistance


>I am seeking comments regarding the ID of a winter warbler here in Halifax, 
>Nova Scotia.  Details of the sighting, and the sole photograph, may be 
>found here:
>
> http://maybank.tripod.com/images/warbler.htm
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Blake Maybank
> maybank AT ns.sympatico.ca
>
> Editor, "Nova Scotia Birds"
>
> author, "Birding Sites of Nova Scotia"
> http://maybank.tripod.com/BSNS.htm
>
> White's Lake, Nova Scotia, Canada


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Interesting discussion. Perhaps comparing it to these birds would be 
useful.

http://www.greglasley.net/orangecrown.html

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY


On Dec 17, 2007, at 10:39 AM, Alan Contreras wrote:

> Looks like a Nashville, of which I see plenty, though usually not this 
> dull
> and flat-colored.  The eyering is excessive for even an off-brand
> orange-crown, the underparts have way too much white toward the stern 
> and
> the gray-headed forms of OC usually have pretty good contrast with the
> green, which this bird doesn't.
>
> I just saw a standard-issue lutescens OC yesterday (they winter in 
> small
> numbers in w. Oregon and are the second-commonest migrant and most
> widespread breeding warbler here) and have it fresh in mind.
>
> -- 
> Alan Contreras
> EUGENE, OREGON
>
> �Be naughty, save Santa a trip.�
>
> acontrer AT mindspring.com
> www.OREGONREVIEW.BLOGSPOT.COM � Social Commentary
> www.CONTRERASBIRDS.BLOGSPOT.COM � Current Bird Photos
>
>
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Looks like a Nashville, of which I see plenty, though usually not this dull
and flat-colored.  The eyering is excessive for even an off-brand
orange-crown, the underparts have way too much white toward the stern and
the gray-headed forms of OC usually have pretty good contrast with the
green, which this bird doesn't.

I just saw a standard-issue lutescens OC yesterday (they winter in small
numbers in w. Oregon and are the second-commonest migrant and most
widespread breeding warbler here) and have it fresh in mind.

-- 
Alan Contreras
EUGENE, OREGON

�Be naughty, save Santa a trip.�

acontrer AT mindspring.com
www.OREGONREVIEW.BLOGSPOT.COM � Social Commentary
www.CONTRERASBIRDS.BLOGSPOT.COM � Current Bird Photos


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Blake,

Looks entirely like a Nashville to me. In addition to the complete  
eye-ring and the lack of eyebrow/eyeline, the shape seems more  
Nashville-like, with rounder head, shorter body. Also, I seem to be  
able to see the white patch at the base of the legs, which is another  
good way to tell these apart.

I can't really say if it's a "western" or not, though it looks much  
like many we see in Utah and west Mexico.

Mark Stackhouse
Westwings, Inc.
www.westwings.com
mark AT westwings.com
 (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA)
011-52- (San Blas, Nayarit, Mexico)

On Dec 17, 2007, at 7:43 AM, Blake Maybank wrote:

> I am seeking comments regarding the ID of a winter warbler here in  
> Halifax, Nova Scotia.  Details of the sighting, and the sole  
> photograph, may be found here:
>
> http://maybank.tripod.com/images/warbler.htm
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ------
> Blake Maybank
> maybank AT ns.sympatico.ca
>
> Editor, "Nova Scotia Birds"
>
> author, "Birding Sites of Nova Scotia"
> http://maybank.tripod.com/BSNS.htm
>
> White's Lake, Nova Scotia, Canada
>
> -- 
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I am seeking comments regarding the ID of a winter warbler here in 
Halifax, Nova Scotia.  Details of the sighting, and the sole 
photograph, may be found here:

http://maybank.tripod.com/images/warbler.htm

Cheers,


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blake Maybank
maybank AT ns.sympatico.ca

Editor, "Nova Scotia Birds"

author, "Birding Sites of Nova Scotia"
http://maybank.tripod.com/BSNS.htm

White's Lake, Nova Scotia, Canada 


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Picked this one out of a crowd of California Gulls. My initial reaction, was a 
2nd winter Glaucous-winged x Herring, but another birder suggested 
Glaucous-winged x Western Gull, and yet another suggested pure Herring after 
seeing pictures. I felt the bill was too heavy, with to much black for a pure 
Herring Gull and the amount of marbling in the feathering seemed to suggest 
some GWGU parentage. The bird also had a dark iris, in the close up of the 
head, on the computer it looks orange-brown. 


http://www.timaverybirding.com/photos/thumbnails.php?album=483

Any thoughts?
    
Cheers,

Tim Avery
Salt Lake City, Utah
tanager AT timaverybirding.com
http://www.timaverybirding.com


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Dear Mars/All,
I'm very grateful for Mars' contribution on this subject, as his 
Gulls group must be the most experienced with LBBGs from NW Europe. 
I've looked into his comments, and adjusted my statements on the web 
page (purple text):
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/gullsp198.html

Here I address some of Mars' comments:

1) Size:  As Tony Leukering mentioned, wing length is not a useful 
means of comparing standing bulk for gulls, when one is known to be 
relatively longer-winged.  It was for this reason i did not use the 
wing data in the Olsen & Larsson book but instead used weight - 
surely the best comparative biometric in the absence of actual 
bill-to-wingtip measurements - ?

2) & 3) Head shape and bill shape - while I agree with Mars' 
statement in general and do feel that head shape should be used with 
caution, it has been mentioned in other published articles on 
heuglini, and in particular the head/bill shape suggests that this 
bird is a female - further diminishing the likelihood that it is a 
graellsii given its size.  Take a look at the following internet 
images, and compare the head/bill shapes with the Houston bird:

http://www.pbase.com/dophoto/image/
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/OmanGulls/heuglini01.htm - compare 
head/bill structure wit birds in 5th and 7th (out of 8) images.
http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini/heug5cy14.html
http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini/heug5cy16.html - may not be 
heuglini, but such birds seem to occur often in its range...?
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/heugp02.html

4) eye speckling: good data to know - but keep in mind that less than 
one-in-five LBBGs show any speckling - perhaps that percentage is 
lower if this bird is a female (suggested by head/bill shape).

5) Outer upper wing coverts: again this is really helpful 
information, and I've adjusted my text accordingly  - but I've looked 
at all the covert images on Mars' web section, and the actual pattern 
of black on the coverts of the Texas bird seems at best rare within 
his sample...

6) Primary pattern: I was clumsy with my wording - I did not mean to 
imply that black on 7 primaries was bad for LBBG, but i think that on 
average heuglini are less likely to have black on only 6 primaries 
than LBBG, so I was mentioning it to show that it does at least fall 
into a common category for heuglini (and LBBG).  The same goes for 
the P10 mirror pattern fine for both heuglini and LBBG.  P9 lacking a 
mirror begs the question: is there a sex-bias for this feature in 
LBBG?  - i thought that males were significantly more likely to have 
a P9 mirror than females - any data on this, Mars?  Regarding the 
white inner crescents to the black subterminal bands on P5 - P7; this 
has been mentioned in previous texts on IDing heuglini - but I don't 
know if anyone has evaluated it properly on LBBG populations. 
Regarding freshness of primaries, most data from Europe would suggest 
that LBBG of the graellsii/intergrade type would not still be 
finishing P10 in March - but in recent years here in Texas I 
regularly see "LBBGs" with P8 the longest primary in late Jan/early 
Feb (look at examples listed near the bottom of this page: 
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbginx.html) - something 
that would be very exceptional for LBBGs seen in the Old World - 
please correct me if I'm wrong on this.  Of course we need to be 
careful in drawing any conclusion from this phenomenon, as we don't 
know where these late-molting Texas "LBBGs" come from (maybe 
some/most of these birds are heuglini? - there's no way to know...)

I certainly do not claim to know what taxon this gull is, but I'd 
like to express the situation thus:
- if it is a male LBBG, how many male LBBGs have IN COMBINATION: a 
size so large that they appear to be have the bulk of a medium/large 
AMHE; a shortish bill and dome-shaped head; a smallish P10 mirror and 
no P9 mirror; black on the leading edge of the primary coverts; eyes 
speckled to this degree; extremely fresh outer primaries; white 
crescents inside the subterminal black on P7...?
Maybe such LBBGs occur, but assuming that individual LBBGs meeting 
the above criteria are a tiny fraction of the population, and that 
heuglini which look like this are much more common (are they?), then 
statistically what is it more likely to be?  I don't think "known 
occurrence" can be but a small factor here, because the actual 
identity of LBBG-types occurring in Texas (or anywhere west of the 
Mississippi?) has never been established by banding recovery or 
genetic analysis.  Keep in mind that less than five years ago 
conventional wisdom was that SBGU and Vega Gull were mega-rarities in 
North America away from western Alaska - but thanks to Alvaro 
Jaramillo and others we now know that they are a regular (albeit 
rare) component of the gull population wintering along the southern 
West Coast.  Many heuglini migrant distances that would not be as far 
as southern California, or even Texas....  And just in case some of 
you are thinking that it is fanciful to conject that gulls like 
heuglini could turn up in Texas, take a look at this gull: 
http://texasbirds.org/tbrc/bhgull2.htm - it was hatched less than 600 
miles from known heuglini colonies.

Cheers,
Martin



>Hi Martin,
>
>Just visited the webpage, nice images. I just copy your comments and
>added a few thoughts based on measurements in 2005/2006...
>
>1) Size: it is very large for an LBBG-type; at least a large as an
>average AMHE, and possibly slightly larger. Using data from Olsen and
>Larsson's "Gulls of North America, Europe and Asia" the mean weight of
>AMHE (both sexes) c. 1,100 grams (range 600 - 1,560), while the mean for
>heuglini is similar at c. 1,060 grams (range (745 - 1,360); the maximum
>for all forms of LBBG is 1,100 grams .
>
>Mars:
>In a mixed Dutch colony (Moerdijk) of Herring and Lesser Black-backed
>Gulls, we measured 165 male and 137 female Herrings. Males are bigger
>and this is reflected by wingspan (we didn't measure weight). Males
>wingspan average is 437 mm (n: 165) at Moerdijk. We also measured 1038
>LBBG's, of which 222 birds had a wingspan of 438 mm or more. Three birds
>measured 460, 460, 462 mm; such wingspan is very rare, only found in the
>largest Herrings (315 Herrings were measured, only 1 bird had wingspan
>over 460, a male with 465 mm).
>So, I don't say your bird is not large, compared to Am Herrings, but I
>just try to illustrate LBBG's can be bulky birds too.
>
>2) Head shape: a gentle "domed" crown with convex shape between the eye
>and the bill.
>
>Mars:
>I'm not aware this is a relevant feature to separate the two. I think
>head shape may also change with mood, return after marine food trips,
>etc. It will be difficult to correct for such variables, when comparing
>birds?
>
>3) Bill shape: shortish and very thick-based is most unusual for LBBG
>forms.
>
>Mars:
>A stubby bill would be something one expect in barabensis perhaps? In
>heuglini, the bill may be long and droopy by times? See for bill shapes:
>http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini-id/index.html
>
>4) Eye speckled with dark such that overall tone of eye is slightly
>dusky (the vast majority of LBBG forms have extremely pale whitish-cream
>eyes).
>
>Mars:
>Only 23% of Dutch LBBG's at Moerdijk did not show any speckling (n:
>952). Birds were scored in the hand, from didgital photo's. 22% of the
>birds showed 'obvious speckling' (>1% of the surface), which would be
>rather easy to see with binoculars in the field. This may either be
>concentrated speckles, or more washed out cloudy irides. Males tend to
>show more often speckling than females do.
>
>5) Outer upper wing coverts: despite no other signs of immaturity the
>greater and median primary coverts have blackish shaft lines - a typical
>feature of fully-adult heuglini, but not for fully-adult LBBG forms.
>
>Mars:
>In LBBG's. black on the primary coverts is a common features. For known
>age adults, see: http://www.gull-research.org/prims/
>75% of breeding LBBG's has black on the primary coverts (n: 1001). Even
>birds of 11cy, 12cy, 13cy (ringed as pullus) still show black on the
>primary coverts.
>
>6) Wing pattern: note the black extending to P4;
>
>Mars:
>Birds with 7 primaries with black (P4-P10) is the most common pattern in
>Dutch LBBG's. Both in males and females. Below a short table of %
>distribution (hope it remains okay in your mail. It should read: 65% of
>LBBG's at Moerdijk have 7 primaries with black.
>  	Number of primaries with black	Total
>			
>LBBG	male		-	
>  	female	
>  	Total		
>
>only one mirror, on P10 (on a bird that must be a male, based on size),
>with obvious black subterminal band before the apical spot;
>
>Mars:
>Obvious black sub-terminal black on P10 is the common pattern for
>breeding LBBG's (80% has this pattern, n: 967). For P9, there was no
>dominant pattern, but 42% had no mirror on P9.
>
>thin but obvious white basal crescent to the subterminal black marks on
>P5 - P7; P7 with black on outer web extending virtually to the tip of
>its greater primary covert; large white tips to P1 - P4; rather thick
>white trailing edge to secondaries.
>
>Mars:
>we didn't score these features.
>
>7) Wing tip: fresh-looking white apical tips plus clustering of tips P8
>- P10 suggest that the primary molt may just be completing - typical for
>heuglini in late March but exceptional at best for
>graellsii/intermedius.
>
>Mars:
>We didn't score 'freshness' op primaries.
>
>Overall, I don't think it will be easy to rule out male graellsii (but
>grandpa always called me pessimistic... ;-)
>
>Cheers,
>Mars
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
>Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 9:31 PM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
>Subject: [BIRDWG01] a heuglini-like adult LBBG-type from Texas last
>March
>
>Dear All,
>Now that gull season is truly upon us, I'd like to get some feedback
>on the following adult LBBG-type gull seen March 25, 2007 near
>Houston, Texas:
>http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/gullsp198.html
>I am aware that current knowledge does not provide any means of
>separating adult heuglini from graellsii LBBG, in that all features
>are individually overlapping - but I wonder if a bird like this that
>seems to exhibit a number of heuglini features could approach some
>(less than complete) level of confidence???
>Cheers,
>Martin
>PS I'd be most grateful for any corrections to my text therein - thanks.
>
>
>--
>>Martin Reid
>>San Antonio, Texas
>>mailto:upupa AT airmail.net
>>http://www.martinreid.com
>
>
>Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
>http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


-- 
>Martin Reid
>San Antonio, Texas
>mailto:upupa AT airmail.net
>http://www.martinreid.com


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I went through Gulls of the Americas after seeing the bird on Thursday and came 
to the opinion that there could be some GWGU in this bird. Cliff Weisse also 
sent me similar comments to those made by Martin. 

   
 We had a 3rd year Glaucous-winged Gull over here last winter, last seen at 
Beddington near London on the 18th April. I don't know if 3rd year gulls like 
this are capable of breeding, but if they are and it summered in the Arctic 
somewhere....highly unlikely....but perhaps not impossible. 


Martin Reid  wrote:
  Dear all,
I've been looking at the photos of the Oxon gull; has anyone 
considered a small female Glaucous-winged gull at the dark extreme 
(or more likely an intergrade with Western Gull or Slaty-backed Gull, 
depending upon its origin) - ?
The first warning sign for me is the tail - it looks to be completely 
without paler bars/mottling, even at the base of the outermost 
retrices; this is only shown by GWGU and WEGU and a minority of SBGUs 
- all other large gulls have at least a smidgeon of markings at the 
base of the outermost tail feathers (except perhaps the very whitest 
kumlieni). Secondly, the photos of the bird in normal standing pose 
show a "skirt" below the greater secondary coverts formed by the 
exposed tips of the secondaries; again this is typical of GWGU, many 
WEGU, and some SBGU, but not of the other large gull contenders. 
Thirdly the greater secondary coverts are a "muddy" pattern whereby 
any transverse barring is very limited and somewhat diffuse, limited 
mostly to the innermost half-dozen coverts - this is classic GWGU 
first-gen pattern, yet at best it is rare in Kumlien's (then only on 
the whitest birds) or Thayer's. Lastly there is the suggestion that 
the "shins" are a bit darkish - again this is typical of many GWGU, 
but not of Kumlien's/Thayer's.
Some west coast gullers have in the past commented to me that 
confusion between small female GWGU and pale Thayer's/ intergrades 
with Kumlien's is a common mistake for visiting birders, as they 
expect GWGUs to look like typical males, not knowing that small 
females are very different in structure. The first two images of 
this bird (chronologically) on the SURFBIRDS website (by Nic Hallam, 
either side of the Desert Wheatear close-up, with file suffixes 
3428.jpg and 3223.jpg) give me a classic GWGU head/eye structure - 
eye very high in head and rather central; not forward-placed - even 
though this is less evident in subsequent images. Also if you 
copy/enlarge the left side of that first image there is a clear 
expansion of the gonys into a typical GWGU "droop".

All this said, I'd have to say that this individual would probably 
not "cut the mustard" here in Texas as a pure GWGU, due the palish 
tone to the bill base in early December and the slightly too strong 
dark contrast in the wing-tips. Here in Texas Occam's Razor would 
dictate labelling it as a probable GWGUxWEGU hybrid (probably a 
back-cross with GWGU), but I've long suspected that some of the birds 
seen in Europe might be from the Siberian population, where GWGUxSBGU 
and their back-crosses occur.

Compare the pics of the Oxon bird with those of GWGUs (probably 
including one or two not-pure ones) at these web pages; I'd ask you 
to particularly note the consistent match of the greater covert and 
tertial patterns:
http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/
http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/
http://www.birdinfo.com/A_Images_G/Glaucous-wingedGull_0056.html
http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gl_w_1w/1w_glauw.html - first 2 pics
http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/
http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020205/GW.html - compare open wing 
pattern with 2nd pic here
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/Glaucous-winged.htm

Just a thought,
Martin

-- 
>Martin Reid
>San Antonio, Texas
>mailto:upupa AT airmail.net
>http://www.martinreid.com


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Martin and All,

Although my initial impression based on a couple of the images
was that this bird is most likely a Thayer's/Kumlien's, on reconsidering
all the images I would have to agree that some features do suggest
it may be something else. 

However, that said I don't see anything that necessarily suggests
Glaucous-winged parentage. The head and bill shape just look
odd to me - more suggestive of an intergrade in general than any 
particular species. I can't tell if there is any barring at the bases
of the outer rects or not due to the low resolution - it appears
to me there may be in one or more of the images. The contrast
of the greater covert patterning seems to vary between images,
and the appearance of the scap pattern strikes me as 
somewhat too contrasty and regular for typical G-w. Also I
think most critically, marbled tertial interiors are not typical
of G-w (or of Western, Slaty-backed, or smithsonianus).

Given the location if I were going to argue for something outside
the Thayer's/Kumlien's complex my first thought would be a 
dark-billed Nelson's.

Cheers,

Phil Pickering
Lincoln City, Oregon
philliplc AT charter.net


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-----Original Message-----
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
To: marsmuusse AT WANADOO.NL
Sent: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 7:08 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] a heuglini-like adult LBBG-type from Texas last March


Oops, sent the last message before I was quite ready.? I just wanted to note 
that though I haven't seen anywhere near as many Lessers as have Europeans, 
I've ogled quite a few (at least 500, including some relative bruisers) and 
don't ever recall seeing one that seemed so much more massive than neighboring 
American Herring Gulls. 


Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO


-----Original Message-----
From: Mars Muusse 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 2:26 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] a heuglini-like adult LBBG-type from Texas last March



Hi Martin,

Just visited the webpage, nice images. I just copy your comments and
added a few thoughts based on measurements in 2005/) Size: it is very large for an LBBG-type; at least a large as an
average AMHE, and possibly slightly larger. Using data from Olsen and
Larsson's "Gulls of North America, Europe and Asia" the mean weight of
AMHE (both sexes) c. 1,100 grams (range 600 - 1,560), while the mean for
heuglini is similar at c. 1,060 grams (range (745 - 1,360); the maximum
for all forms of LBBG is 1,100 grams .

Mars: 
In a mixed Dutch colony (Moerdijk) of Herring and Lesser Black-backed
Gulls, we measured 165 male and 137 female Herrings. Males are bigger
and this is reflected by wingspan (we didn't measure weight). Males
wingspan average is 437 mm (n: 165) at Moerdijk. We also measured 1038
LBBG's, of which 222 birds had a wingspan of 438 mm or more. Three birds
measured 460, 460, 462 mm; such wingspan is very rare, only found in the
largest Herrings (315 Herrings were measured, only 1 bird had wingspan
over 460, a male with 465 mm).
So, I don't say your bird is not large, compared to Am Herrings, but I
just try to illustrate LBBG's can be bulky birds too.

2) Head shape: a gentle "domed" crown with convex shape between the eye
and the bill.

Mars:
I'm not aware this is a relevant feature to separate the two. I think
head shape may also change with mood, return after marine food trips,
etc. It will be difficult to correct for such variables, when comparing
birds?

3) Bill shape: shortish and very thick-based is most unusual for LBBG
forms.

Mars:
A stubby bill would be something one expect in barabensis perhaps? In
heuglini, the bill may be long and droopy by times? See for bill shapes:
http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini-id/index.html 

4) Eye speckled with dark such that overall tone of eye is slightly
dusky (the vast majority of LBBG forms have extremely pale whitish-cream
eyes).

Mars:
Only 23% of Dutch LBBG's at Moerdijk did not show any speckling (n:
952). Birds were scored in the hand, from didgital photo's. 22% of the
birds showed 'obvious speckling' (>1% of the surface), which would be
rather easy to see with binoculars in the field. This may either be
concentrated speckles, or more washed out cloudy irides. Males tend to
show more often speckling than females do.

5) Outer upper wing coverts: despite no other signs of immaturity the
greater and median primary coverts have blackish shaft lines - a typical
feature of fully-adult heuglini, but not for fully-adult LBBG forms.

Mars:
In LBBG's. black on the primary coverts is a common features. For known
age adults, see: http://www.gull-research.org/prims/
75% of breeding LBBG's has black on the primary coverts (n: 1001). Even
birds of 11cy, 12cy, 13cy (ringed as pullus) still show black on the
primary coverts.

6) Wing pattern: note the black extending to P4; 

Mars:
Birds with 7 primaries with black (P4-P10) is the most common pattern in
Dutch LBBG's. Both in males and females. Below a short table of %
distribution (hope it remains okay in your mail. It should read: 65% of
LBBG's at Moerdijk have 7 primaries with black.
    Number of primaries with black  Total
                
LBBG    male        -   
    female  
    Total       

only one mirror, on P10 (on a bird that must be a male, based on size),
with obvious black subterminal band before the apical spot; 

Mars:
Obvious black sub-terminal black on P10 is the common pattern for
breeding LBBG's (80% has this pattern, n: 967). For P9, there was no
dominant pattern, but 42% had no mirror on P9.

thin but obvious white basal crescent to the subterminal black marks on
P5 - P7; P7 with black on outer web extending virtually to the tip of
its greater primary covert; large white tips to P1 - P4; rather thick
white trailing edge to secondaries.

Mars: 
we didn't score these features.

7) Wing tip: fresh-looking white apical tips plus clustering of tips P8
- P10 suggest that the primary molt may just be completing - typical for
heuglini in late March but exceptional at best for
graellsii/intermedius.

Mars:
We didn't score 'freshness' op primaries. 

Overall, I don't think it will be easy to rule out male graellsii (but
grandpa always called me pessimistic... ;-)

Cheers, 
Mars


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 9:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] a heuglini-like adult LBBG-type from Texas last
March

Dear All,
Now that gull season is truly upon us, I'd like to get some feedback 
on the following adult LBBG-type gull seen March 25, 2007 near 
Houston, Texas:
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/gullsp198.html
I am aware that current knowledge does not provide any means of 
separating adult heuglini from graellsii LBBG, in that all features 
are individually overlapping - but I wonder if a bird like this that 
seems to exhibit a number of heuglini features could approach some 
(less than complete) level of confidence???
Cheers,
Martin
PS I'd be most grateful for any corrections to my text therein - thanks.


-- 
>Martin Reid
>San Antonio, Texas
>mailto:upupa AT airmail.net
>http://www.martinreid.com


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Hi all:

While?I completely agree that LessBacks can be longer-winged than are Herrings, 
that measurement is not a good one to use in this comparison, as LessBack is a 
very long-winged beastie (relative to mass), more so than is Herring.? I would 
have preferred to have seen weight, which?is a better indicator of overall body 
size in species that differ in relative wing length. 


Sincerely,

Tony Leukering
Brighton, CO


-----Original Message-----
From: Mars Muusse 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 2:26 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] a heuglini-like adult LBBG-type from Texas last March



Hi Martin,

Just visited the webpage, nice images. I just copy your comments and
added a few thoughts based on measurements in 2005/) Size: it is very large for an LBBG-type; at least a large as an
average AMHE, and possibly slightly larger. Using data from Olsen and
Larsson's "Gulls of North America, Europe and Asia" the mean weight of
AMHE (both sexes) c. 1,100 grams (range 600 - 1,560), while the mean for
heuglini is similar at c. 1,060 grams (range (745 - 1,360); the maximum
for all forms of LBBG is 1,100 grams .

Mars: 
In a mixed Dutch colony (Moerdijk) of Herring and Lesser Black-backed
Gulls, we measured 165 male and 137 female Herrings. Males are bigger
and this is reflected by wingspan (we didn't measure weight). Males
wingspan average is 437 mm (n: 165) at Moerdijk. We also measured 1038
LBBG's, of which 222 birds had a wingspan of 438 mm or more. Three birds
measured 460, 460, 462 mm; such wingspan is very rare, only found in the
largest Herrings (315 Herrings were measured, only 1 bird had wingspan
over 460, a male with 465 mm).
So, I don't say your bird is not large, compared to Am Herrings, but I
just try to illustrate LBBG's can be bulky birds too.

2) Head shape: a gentle "domed" crown with convex shape between the eye
and the bill.

Mars:
I'm not aware this is a relevant feature to separate the two. I think
head shape may also change with mood, return after marine food trips,
etc. It will be difficult to correct for such variables, when comparing
birds?

3) Bill shape: shortish and very thick-based is most unusual for LBBG
forms.

Mars:
A stubby bill would be something one expect in barabensis perhaps? In
heuglini, the bill may be long and droopy by times? See for bill shapes:
http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini-id/index.html 

4) Eye speckled with dark such that overall tone of eye is slightly
dusky (the vast majority of LBBG forms have extremely pale whitish-cream
eyes).

Mars:
Only 23% of Dutch LBBG's at Moerdijk did not show any speckling (n:
952). Birds were scored in the hand, from didgital photo's. 22% of the
birds showed 'obvious speckling' (>1% of the surface), which would be
rather easy to see with binoculars in the field. This may either be
concentrated speckles, or more washed out cloudy irides. Males tend to
show more often speckling than females do.

5) Outer upper wing coverts: despite no other signs of immaturity the
greater and median primary coverts have blackish shaft lines - a typical
feature of fully-adult heuglini, but not for fully-adult LBBG forms.

Mars:
In LBBG's. black on the primary coverts is a common features. For known
age adults, see: http://www.gull-research.org/prims/
75% of breeding LBBG's has black on the primary coverts (n: 1001). Even
birds of 11cy, 12cy, 13cy (ringed as pullus) still show black on the
primary coverts.

6) Wing pattern: note the black extending to P4; 

Mars:
Birds with 7 primaries with black (P4-P10) is the most common pattern in
Dutch LBBG's. Both in males and females. Below a short table of %
distribution (hope it remains okay in your mail. It should read: 65% of
LBBG's at Moerdijk have 7 primaries with black.
    Number of primaries with black  Total
                
LBBG    male        -   
    female  
    Total       

only one mirror, on P10 (on a bird that must be a male, based on size),
with obvious black subterminal band before the apical spot; 

Mars:
Obvious black sub-terminal black on P10 is the common pattern for
breeding LBBG's (80% has this pattern, n: 967). For P9, there was no
dominant pattern, but 42% had no mirror on P9.

thin but obvious white basal crescent to the subterminal black marks on
P5 - P7; P7 with black on outer web extending virtually to the tip of
its greater primary covert; large white tips to P1 - P4; rather thick
white trailing edge to secondaries.

Mars: 
we didn't score these features.

7) Wing tip: fresh-looking white apical tips plus clustering of tips P8
- P10 suggest that the primary molt may just be completing - typical for
heuglini in late March but exceptional at best for
graellsii/intermedius.

Mars:
We didn't score 'freshness' op primaries. 

Overall, I don't think it will be easy to rule out male graellsii (but
grandpa always called me pessimistic... ;-)

Cheers, 
Mars


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 9:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] a heuglini-like adult LBBG-type from Texas last
March

Dear All,
Now that gull season is truly upon us, I'd like to get some feedback 
on the following adult LBBG-type gull seen March 25, 2007 near 
Houston, Texas:
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/gullsp198.html
I am aware that current knowledge does not provide any means of 
separating adult heuglini from graellsii LBBG, in that all features 
are individually overlapping - but I wonder if a bird like this that 
seems to exhibit a number of heuglini features could approach some 
(less than complete) level of confidence???
Cheers,
Martin
PS I'd be most grateful for any corrections to my text therein - thanks.


-- 
>Martin Reid
>San Antonio, Texas
>mailto:upupa AT airmail.net
>http://www.martinreid.com


Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01

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Hi Martin,

Just visited the webpage, nice images. I just copy your comments and
added a few thoughts based on measurements in 2005/) Size: it is very large for an LBBG-type; at least a large as an
average AMHE, and possibly slightly larger. Using data from Olsen and
Larsson's "Gulls of North America, Europe and Asia" the mean weight of
AMHE (both sexes) c. 1,100 grams (range 600 - 1,560), while the mean for
heuglini is similar at c. 1,060 grams (range (745 - 1,360); the maximum
for all forms of LBBG is 1,100 grams .

Mars: 
In a mixed Dutch colony (Moerdijk) of Herring and Lesser Black-backed
Gulls, we measured 165 male and 137 female Herrings. Males are bigger
and this is reflected by wingspan (we didn't measure weight). Males
wingspan average is 437 mm (n: 165) at Moerdijk. We also measured 1038
LBBG's, of which 222 birds had a wingspan of 438 mm or more. Three birds
measured 460, 460, 462 mm; such wingspan is very rare, only found in the
largest Herrings (315 Herrings were measured, only 1 bird had wingspan
over 460, a male with 465 mm).
So, I don't say your bird is not large, compared to Am Herrings, but I
just try to illustrate LBBG's can be bulky birds too.

2) Head shape: a gentle "domed" crown with convex shape between the eye
and the bill.

Mars:
I'm not aware this is a relevant feature to separate the two. I think
head shape may also change with mood, return after marine food trips,
etc. It will be difficult to correct for such variables, when comparing
birds?

3) Bill shape: shortish and very thick-based is most unusual for LBBG
forms.

Mars:
A stubby bill would be something one expect in barabensis perhaps? In
heuglini, the bill may be long and droopy by times? See for bill shapes:
http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini-id/index.html 

4) Eye speckled with dark such that overall tone of eye is slightly
dusky (the vast majority of LBBG forms have extremely pale whitish-cream
eyes).

Mars:
Only 23% of Dutch LBBG's at Moerdijk did not show any speckling (n:
952). Birds were scored in the hand, from didgital photo's. 22% of the
birds showed 'obvious speckling' (>1% of the surface), which would be
rather easy to see with binoculars in the field. This may either be
concentrated speckles, or more washed out cloudy irides. Males tend to
show more often speckling than females do.

5) Outer upper wing coverts: despite no other signs of immaturity the
greater and median primary coverts have blackish shaft lines - a typical
feature of fully-adult heuglini, but not for fully-adult LBBG forms.

Mars:
In LBBG's. black on the primary coverts is a common features. For known
age adults, see: http://www.gull-research.org/prims/
75% of breeding LBBG's has black on the primary coverts (n: 1001). Even
birds of 11cy, 12cy, 13cy (ringed as pullus) still show black on the
primary coverts.

6) Wing pattern: note the black extending to P4; 

Mars:
Birds with 7 primaries with black (P4-P10) is the most common pattern in
Dutch LBBG's. Both in males and females. Below a short table of %
distribution (hope it remains okay in your mail. It should read: 65% of
LBBG's at Moerdijk have 7 primaries with black.
 	Number of primaries with black	Total
				 
LBBG	male		-	
 	female	
 	Total		

only one mirror, on P10 (on a bird that must be a male, based on size),
with obvious black subterminal band before the apical spot; 

Mars:
Obvious black sub-terminal black on P10 is the common pattern for
breeding LBBG's (80% has this pattern, n: 967). For P9, there was no
dominant pattern, but 42% had no mirror on P9.

thin but obvious white basal crescent to the subterminal black marks on
P5 - P7; P7 with black on outer web extending virtually to the tip of
its greater primary covert; large white tips to P1 - P4; rather thick
white trailing edge to secondaries.

Mars: 
we didn't score these features.

7) Wing tip: fresh-looking white apical tips plus clustering of tips P8
- P10 suggest that the primary molt may just be completing - typical for
heuglini in late March but exceptional at best for
graellsii/intermedius.

Mars:
We didn't score 'freshness' op primaries. 

Overall, I don't think it will be easy to rule out male graellsii (but
grandpa always called me pessimistic... ;-)

Cheers, 
Mars


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 9:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] a heuglini-like adult LBBG-type from Texas last
March

Dear All,
Now that gull season is truly upon us, I'd like to get some feedback 
on the following adult LBBG-type gull seen March 25, 2007 near 
Houston, Texas:
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/gullsp198.html
I am aware that current knowledge does not provide any means of 
separating adult heuglini from graellsii LBBG, in that all features 
are individually overlapping - but I wonder if a bird like this that 
seems to exhibit a number of heuglini features could approach some 
(less than complete) level of confidence???
Cheers,
Martin
PS I'd be most grateful for any corrections to my text therein - thanks.


-- 
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>San Antonio, Texas
>mailto:upupa AT airmail.net
>http://www.martinreid.com


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Hi Martin,
My first impression is that the bill of your bird is rather too stubby for a 
typical Heuglin's, if it had a bill similar to the AMHU on the right in 
picture no 2 it would have been more like it. There now is nice set of 
pictures of Heuglin's from Jon Hornbuckle available here:

 http://members.lycos.nl/radioactiverobins/navigationindex.htm

then choose  Heuglin's and Baraba Gull.

I shouldn't worry too much about the physical abilities of a gull like this, 
they breed north of Finland on Kanin Peninsula and if I remember correctly 
you already came across a Finnish-ringed Black-headed Gull in Texas!
Cheers, Norman

Martin Reid wrote: > Now that gull season is truly upon us, I'd like to get 
some feedback
> on the following adult LBBG-type gull seen March 25, 2007 near Houston, 
> Texas:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/gullsp198.html
> I am aware that current knowledge does not provide any means of separating 
> adult heuglini from graellsii LBBG, in that all features are individually 
> overlapping - but I wonder if a bird like this that seems to exhibit a 
> number of heuglini features could approach some (less than complete) level 
> of confidence???

> PS I'd be most grateful for any corrections to my text therein - thanks.


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Dear All,
Now that gull season is truly upon us, I'd like to get some feedback 
on the following adult LBBG-type gull seen March 25, 2007 near 
Houston, Texas:
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/gullsp198.html
I am aware that current knowledge does not provide any means of 
separating adult heuglini from graellsii LBBG, in that all features 
are individually overlapping - but I wonder if a bird like this that 
seems to exhibit a number of heuglini features could approach some 
(less than complete) level of confidence???
Cheers,
Martin
PS I'd be most grateful for any corrections to my text therein - thanks.


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>mailto:upupa AT airmail.net
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I think Martin Reid makes some good observations here and agree that the
list of
potential ID contenders be broadened from the thayeri-kumlieni morass.

My first impression of this bird before it was ever discussed here on
ID-frontiers
was that it appeared more dome headed, and thick-billed than what I am used
to
with kumlieni. I think Martin's point about eye-placement adds to the
un-kumlieni
impression of the head/bill.

I was also a bit surprized by Lee's unequivocal prouncement the the
scap/tert
pattern was INCORRECT for thayeri. As far as I know there is NO categorical
distinction between these feather tracts between the two forms as Julian
points
out.

However, I am not sure I agree with the usefullness of the apparent
secondary skirt.
This could be simply due to posture. In general the skirt seems to be a
potentially
usefull feature on live birds or perhaps in video but on on stills may not
be too
trustworthy.

I will make the usual plea for more pics, especially shots in direct
comparison with
another large gull.

The one comparison shot where the bird is facing away with the wings spread
with
a Herring Gull in the foreground does not offer a direct comparison but does
suggest
tha the bird is smaller than a Herring. Unless of course that's a GBBG in
the foreground
I am honestly not sure but I think it's a Herring.

The flight shot also provides some comparison and this time it does look
like it's next
to a Herring and it appears a bit smaller but not by much.

Basically I am wondering if GWGU heritage can be ruled out by any of these
poor
comparisons, I am not sure it can. Perhaps in the field the bird was more
obviously
smaller and slightly built than a Herring.

Lastly, as I am still in the kumlieni as hybrid swarm camp, I will add to
the comments
that kumlieni with thayeri influence may be a redundant way of saying
kumlieni.


Matt Sharp
Phila. PA

"All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the
parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you.  Therefore, if you
can"t get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not
use a hammer."
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Dear all,
I've been looking at the photos of the Oxon gull; has anyone 
considered a small female Glaucous-winged gull at the dark extreme 
(or more likely an intergrade with Western Gull or Slaty-backed Gull, 
depending upon its origin) - ?
The first warning sign for me is the tail - it looks to be completely 
without paler bars/mottling, even at the base of the outermost 
retrices; this is only shown by GWGU and WEGU and a minority of SBGUs 
- all other large gulls have at least a smidgeon of markings at the 
base of the outermost tail feathers (except perhaps the very whitest 
kumlieni).  Secondly, the photos of the bird in normal standing pose 
show a "skirt" below the greater secondary coverts formed by the 
exposed tips of the secondaries; again this is typical of GWGU, many 
WEGU, and  some  SBGU, but not of the other large gull contenders. 
Thirdly the greater secondary coverts are a "muddy" pattern whereby 
any transverse barring is very limited and somewhat diffuse, limited 
mostly to the innermost half-dozen coverts - this is classic GWGU 
first-gen pattern, yet at best it is rare in Kumlien's (then only on 
the whitest birds) or Thayer's.  Lastly there is the suggestion that 
the "shins" are a bit darkish - again this is typical of many GWGU, 
but not of Kumlien's/Thayer's.
Some west coast gullers have in the past commented to me that 
confusion between small female GWGU and pale Thayer's/ intergrades 
with Kumlien's is a common mistake for visiting birders, as they 
expect GWGUs to look like typical males, not knowing that small 
females are very different in structure.  The first two images of 
this bird (chronologically) on the SURFBIRDS website (by Nic Hallam, 
either side of the Desert Wheatear close-up, with file suffixes 
3428.jpg and 3223.jpg) give me a classic GWGU head/eye structure - 
eye very high in head and rather central; not forward-placed - even 
though this is less evident in subsequent images.  Also if you 
copy/enlarge the left side of that first image there is a clear 
expansion of the gonys into a typical GWGU "droop".

All this said, I'd have to say that this individual would probably 
not "cut the mustard" here in Texas as a pure GWGU, due the palish 
tone to the bill base in early December and the slightly too strong 
dark contrast in the wing-tips.  Here in Texas Occam's Razor would 
dictate labelling it as a probable GWGUxWEGU hybrid (probably a 
back-cross with GWGU), but I've long suspected that some of the birds 
seen in Europe might be from the Siberian population, where GWGUxSBGU 
and their back-crosses occur.

Compare the pics of the Oxon bird with those of GWGUs (probably 
including one or two not-pure ones) at these web pages; I'd ask you 
to particularly note the consistent match of the greater covert and 
tertial patterns:
http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/
http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/
http://www.birdinfo.com/A_Images_G/Glaucous-wingedGull_0056.html
http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gl_w_1w/1w_glauw.html - first 2 pics
http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/
http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020205/GW.html - compare open wing 
pattern with 2nd pic here
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/Glaucous-winged.htm

Just a thought,
Martin

-- 
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Hi Ron,

Your bird appears to have large dark centers to the undertail coverts. This 
character almost certainly rules out Hoary (Arctic) Redpoll. 


Regards,
Jason Rogers
Banff, AB
hawkowl AT hotmail.com

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It's a Thayer's because it's in California. Sorry to be so unhelpful. I
agree that the very great majority of W. coast birds have solid tails
but I remember a bird in Alviso that had a quite a bit of marbling. We
tried to push the 'Kumlien's' line but I think in the end gave up. Bruce
Mactavish was not convinced, I recall, after looking at the pics
although other NE birders thought it was OK for a Kumlien's. Bottom line
is that there is a broad level of overlap between Thayer's and Kumlien's
(probably because it's just a cline), which means only extremes can be
CERTAINLY identified away from the regular areas.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Floyd Hayes
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 3:02 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Gull - Oxfordshire, UK

If it's a Kumlien's Gull, then what is this bird from
California with a much less solid tail?

http://www.geocities.com/floyd_hayes/thayersgull

Floyd Hayes
Hidden Valley Lake, CA


 
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If it's a Kumlien's Gull, then what is this bird from
California with a much less solid tail?

http://www.geocities.com/floyd_hayes/thayersgull

Floyd Hayes
Hidden Valley Lake, CA


 
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>    I don't know how you prove birds like the Oxon bird are not just dark 
> kumlieni vs kumlieni-with-thayeri genes. Intergrade is that ambiguous word 
> we throw around and I'm not really sure I could pigeonhole one without 
> knowing where a dark kumlieni becomes a 'thayer's-type' intergrade.


Not to mention "kumlieni-with-thayeri genes" may be a redundant
concept.

Phil


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Lee et al,
   
 I think the general opinion is this is a Kumlien's-type rather than a Thayer's 
Gull. But, I don't think it's accurate at this point to call it a dark 
Kumlien's "showing thayeri-influence", since i'm not sure what that means in 
the whole context of the thayeri-kumlieni argument. 

 I don't know how you prove birds like the Oxon bird are not just dark kumlieni 
vs kumlieni-with-thayeri genes. Intergrade is that ambiguous word we throw 
around and I'm not really sure I could pigeonhole one without knowing where a 
dark kumlieni becomes a 'thayer's-type' intergrade. 

 If it is just a very dark extreme of kumlieni, and we agree that these dark 
extremes can show uniform tails and other features suggestive of thayer's, then 
it just becomes a dark kumlieni, without any influences from thayeri ie. we 
shouldn't call them 'intergrades'. 

   
 The only Thayer's I have seen have reminded me more of a smithsonianus herring 
gull in structure and color rather than a kumlien's. I would offer caution to 
Lee in that the tertial pattern and other features are more varied between the 
two species as to make generalizations just that. 

   
 Also, one other feature that was noticeable on the CT bird from some years 
ago, was that the tail showed nice pale terminal tips, something that on such a 
fresh bird as the Oxon bird, seems to be lacking. 

   
  Don't you just hate gulls!
   
  Julian Hough
  
Lee Evans  wrote:
 Although I have not had the chance to get down and see this bird in the flesh 
yet, Ian Lewington's and Nic Hallam's excellent flight and perched images allow 
one to get an accurate view of its appearance. In my view, the bird is a very 
dark KUMLIEN'S GULL, perhaps with some thayeri influence. The pattern on the 
tertials and scapulars is INCORRECT, in my opinion, for Thayer's Gull. For 
example, there is a wash across the tertials and an area of indistinct 
marbling, whereas thayeri would be expected to be discernibly dark centred in 
this area. Furthermore, the scapular patterning is not how I would read that of 
the average juvenile thayeri. They look noticeably barred. Californian (and 
some Irish) juvenile Thayer's Gulls that I have seen show a clear contrast 
between the much darker tertials and paler scapulars and this is not apparent 
in the Oxfordshire larid. Furthermore, the extent of dark in the outer 
primaries falls short of that of typical thayeri, and the 

 secondary bar is nothing like as obvious as you would expect.
   
 Furthermore, as Julian Hough accurately states, the uppertail pattern is not 
quite right; the expanse of pale feathering at the base is too broad a band. 
The primary coverts and outer primaries are very dark, as well as the dark head 
and grey-washed underparts, but surely this falls well within the normal 
variation of a dark juvenile Kumlieni. 

   
 I would be most interested to hear what Bruce Mactavish has to say on its 
identity, as he knows only too well the immense variability exhibited by 
individual Kumlien's and Thayer's Gulls and is a REAL expert in this field. 

   
 There has never been an acceptable Thayer's Gull in Britain, but at least 
seven in Ireland (mainly juveniles but some adults). Some birds, such as a 
recent claim from County Mayo, clearly have North American Herring Gull 
influence, so the nightmare hybrid scenario is never far away. 

  Lee G R Evans
British Birding Association
UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and Conservationist
Discussion Forum/Email Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/
Rare Bird Alert: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/ 

Email Address: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
Website Address: www.uk400clubonline.co.uk

Chaffinch House
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Little Chalfont
Amersham
Buckinghamshire
England
HP6 6QL
Telephones:  and 
Mobile/Text Alerts: 
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related publications; Bird Tours for Birders) 


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Hi Ron
 
The two birds in your images look like MEALY REDPOLLS (Common Redpoll) to me 
- and not Hoary Redpoll. It is very difficult to distinguish between a poorly 
marked exilipes (Scandinavian Arctic) and a well-marked first-winter Mealy 
Redpoll, particularly as the redpoll complex may just be a cline, but Arctic 
Redpoll are generally larger (more heavily and cloak feathered, especially on 
the 

mantle), have more heavily feathered tarsi, have a noticeably unstreaked pure 
white rump (occasionally tinged pink or buff at the extremes), are relatively 
white and unmarked on the undertail coverts, are much lighter streaked on the 
flanks and undersides and have a small, conical, pinched-in bill. Well marked 
birds are noticeably buff around the head, neck and face.  

Lee G R Evans
British Birding Association
UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and Conservationist
Discussion Forum/Email Group: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/_ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/) 
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AlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/) 
Email Address: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
Website Address: _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ 
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) 

Chaffinch House
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Little Chalfont
Amersham
Buckinghamshire
England
HP6 6QL
Telephones:  and 
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America; Rare Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and 
other 

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Although I have not had the chance to get down and see this bird in the flesh 
yet, Ian Lewington's and Nic Hallam's excellent flight and perched images 
allow one to get an accurate view of its appearance. In my view, the bird is a 
very dark KUMLIEN'S GULL, perhaps with some thayeri influence. The pattern on 
the tertials and scapulars is INCORRECT, in my opinion, for Thayer's Gull. For 
example, there is a wash across the tertials and an area of indistinct 
marbling, whereas thayeri would be expected to be discernibly dark centred in 
this 

area. Furthermore, the scapular patterning is not how I would read that of the 
average juvenile thayeri. They look noticeably barred. Californian (and some 
Irish) juvenile Thayer's Gulls that I have seen show a clear contrast between 
the 

much darker tertials and paler scapulars and this is not apparent in the 
Oxfordshire larid. Furthermore, the extent of dark in the outer primaries falls 

short of that of typical thayeri, and the secondary bar is nothing like as 
obvious as you would expect.
 
Furthermore, as Julian Hough accurately states, the uppertail pattern is not 
quite right; the expanse of pale feathering at the base is too broad a band. 
The primary coverts and outer primaries are very dark, as well as the dark head 

and grey-washed underparts, but surely this falls well within the normal 
variation of a dark juvenile Kumlieni.
 
I would be most interested to hear what Bruce Mactavish has to say on its 
identity, as he knows only too well the immense variability exhibited by 
individual Kumlien's and Thayer's Gulls and is a REAL expert in this field.
 
There has never been an acceptable Thayer's Gull in Britain, but at least 
seven in Ireland (mainly juveniles but some adults). Some birds, such as a 
recent 

claim from County Mayo, clearly have North American Herring Gull influence, 
so the nightmare hybrid scenario is never far away.  

Lee G R Evans
British Birding Association
UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and Conservationist
Discussion Forum/Email Group: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/_ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/) 
Rare Bird Alert: 
_http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/_ 

(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/) 

Email Address: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
Website Address: _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ 
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) 

Chaffinch House
8 Sandycroft Road
Little Chalfont
Amersham
Buckinghamshire
England
HP6 6QL
Telephones:  and 
Mobile/Text Alerts: 
(Lee Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird occurrences in 
Britain & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western Palearctic and in North 
America; Rare Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and 
other 

related publications; Bird Tours for Birders)




   


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Hi all,

I got a lot of Common Redpoll pics yesterday. One shows features which could be 
a Hoary and would like your comments. You can post them on the blog or here. 


http://canondigitalslrs.com/
(just below the top post)

Thanks in advance,
Ron McCluskey
Cheney, WA


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Laurent, you're right, although the behavior was a bit
more complicated in that the Little Terns ganged up
against the Least Terns and consistently excluded them
from a drying up water-catchment area with mosquito
fish (Gambusia) prey. They did not observe intrataxon
aggression. The authors' conclusion: "Although of
limited sample size, we suggest that the assortative
interactions and breeding we observed support species
status for these two closely related taxa."

Floyd Hayes
Hidden Valley Lake


 
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I agree with Julian's points on the scaps and secondary bar. I think the
tertials are a little paler and more patterned than typical but still
well within the range of Thayer's.

 

________________________________

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of julian hough
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:54 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Gull - Oxfordshire, UK

 

Phil,

 

Knowing Ian and Nic have seen this and no doubt looked at it closely, I
believe the comments about it showing a dark tail suggestive of Thayer's
Gull is a logical statement.

If I had seen this here in CT and seen that bird in flight with a
uniform tail, I would be thinking I had to rule out Thayer's. Generally,
juv/1st-w kumlien's have a variably-patterned tail, best described as
'marbled' and 'typically' don't show the uniformity as in the Oxon bird.


Other allegedly Thayer's-like features are the darker primary coverts
and the outer primary pattern. Difficult to discern form the shots, but
do the juv. scapulars actually seem to look like Thayer's?? 

Overall, the bird's shape reminds me of a Kumlien's, rather slim,
long-winged etc and combined with the poorly-marked secondary bar and
primaries that are not darker than the rest of the plumage are
suggestive of Kumlien's. 

 

Overall the bird reminds me of one bird from Ireland that showed similar
features (Galway? late eighties-early 90s??) and of several birds here
in north-eastern US. I'm not sure exactly what an 'intergrade' is,
within the context of the variability of Kumlien's, but if there is such
a measurable thing, then i think I would be happy to put this into that
pigeonhole.

 

Hopefully Bruce MacTavish, or Martin Garner,who are far more experienced
and knowledgeable on such subjects will have some input, since it's
certainly an interesting bird.

 

Julian Hough,

Ct, USA



phil barnett  wrote:

	A Kumlien's/Thayer's type gull has been present near Oxford for
the last 3 days.

	 

	Some photos here.

	
http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/gallery/display.cgi?gallery=gallery9

	 

	Any opinions on it?

	 

	Phil

	
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