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Updated on Sunday, January 25 at 01:36 AM EST
The most recently received Mail is at the top.


Tree Sparrow,©David Sibley

25 Jan Re: Brown-capped Rosy-Finches in Utah [Tony Leukering ]
24 Jan Brown-capped Rosy-Finches in Utah [Tim Avery ]
22 Jan Additional photos of presumed Kelp Gull [Ben Coulter ]
22 Jan Presumed Kelp Gull-Pennsylvania [Ben Coulter ]
21 Jan On human cognitive bias, birds and light, and image forensics ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]
20 Jan Black Terns with pink flush, brown belly & subterminal tail bands [Mark B Bartosik ]
20 Jan Barn Swallow With Brown Back [David Roemer ]
18 Jan Re: Barn Swallow with brown back? [David Irons ]
17 Jan Re: Barn Swallow with brown back? [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
18 Jan Re: Barn Swallow with brown back? [David Irons ]
17 Jan Re: Barn Swallow with brown back? [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
17 Jan Re: Barn Swallow with brown back? [Angus Wilson ]
17 Jan Re: Barn Swallow with brown back? [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
17 Jan Re: Barn Swallow with brown back? [David Irons ]
17 Jan Re: Barn Swallow with brown back? [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
17 Jan Barn Swallow with brown back? [Wayne Weber ]
14 Jan Re: Brant ID problems ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
13 Jan Re: Brant confusion []
13 Jan Re: Brant ID problems [Paul Lehman ]
13 Jan Re: Brant confusion [Tristan McKee ]
13 Jan Brant confusion [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
11 Jan NY Grosbeak [David Wheeler ]
11 Jan A couple of odd Juncos from Oregon [David Irons ]
10 Jan Re: AZ Sapsucker [Matthew G Hunter ]
10 Jan Re: AZ Sapsucker [David Irons ]
9 Jan Re: AZ Sapsucker [Kimball Garrett ]
9 Jan Re: AZ Sapsucker [Peter Pyle ]
9 Jan Re: AZ Sapsucker ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
9 Jan Re: AZ Sapsucker [David Irons ]
8 Jan AZ Sapsucker [Matthew G Hunter ]
3 Jan Unusual small, black legged peep at Sal delRey, Hidalgo County, TX, 1/3/15 [Dan Jones ]
30 Dec Re: Glaucous Gull (subspecies barrovianus) Winter Range? ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
30 Dec Glaucous Gull (subspecies barrovianus) Winter Range? [Jean Iron ]
28 Dec Re: RFI: Strange Bird Call [Noah Arthur ]
27 Dec Re: RFI: Strange Bird Call [Michael Price ]
26 Dec Re: RFI: Strange Bird Call [Dick Cannings ]
26 Dec RFI: Strange Bird Call [Michael Price ]
24 Dec Re: [BIRDW G01] Nobo dy else ha d the ball s to do it . [christian artuso ]
24 Dec Re: “Nobody else had the balls to do it .” [Blake Maybank ]
24 Dec “Nobody else had the balls to do it.” ["Michael D. Collins" ]
17 Dec Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction) [Chuck Sexton ]
17 Dec Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction) [Jeff Gilligan ]
17 Dec Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction) [Michael Price ]
16 Dec Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction) [Jeff Gilligan ]
17 Dec Fw: [BIRDWG01] Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America [Alan Wormington ]
16 Dec Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America [Jeff Gilligan ]
15 Dec Labs that will do bird DNA analysis? [Noah Arthur ]
14 Dec Fwd: Trumpeter Swans - East Coast re-introductions and vagrancy potential [Lee G R Evans ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid ["Spahr, Timothy" ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Peter Pyle ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Suzanne Sullivan ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Suzanne Sullivan ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Suzanne Sullivan ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Larry Paul Gorbet ]
10 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Tim Janzen ]
10 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Tony Leukering ]
10 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Gary Nunn ]
10 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Leith McKenzie ]
10 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Gary Nunn ]
10 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [David Irons ]
10 Dec Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels ]
2 Dec Re: Buteo [Tony Leukering ]
2 Dec Re: Buteo [Leith McKenzie ]
2 Dec Re: Buteo [Tony Leukering ]
2 Dec Re: Buteo [Leith McKenzie ]
30 Nov Haemorhous finch ID [Derek Hill ]
29 Nov Buteo [Leith McKenzie ]
26 Nov Re: DNA Analysis -- contamination? [Chris Corben ]
26 Nov DNA Analysis -- contamination? [Noah Arthur ]

Subject: Re: Brown-capped Rosy-Finches in Utah
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 00:52:12 -0500
 Hey Tim:

It's not often that rosies come up for discussion on this venue, so I think you 
for this! 


First off, though it has a different focus, a paper on odd-plumaged 
Brown-cappeds that can shed some light on the UT birds can be found here: 


http://cobirds.org/CFO/ColoradoBirds/InTheScope/29.pdf

Second, I wonder what your source for "I know Black and Brown-capped do 
hybridize where they overlap" is. Brown-capped Rosy-Finch is virtually a 
Colorado breeding endemic (the Wyoming and New Mexico breeding populations are 
extremely restricted and small) and the state has no records of Black 
Rosy-Finch breeding. Though I don't know what's going on in the La Salle Mtns. 
across the border in Utah, that range seems the most logical place for the two 
species to meet, as one can see the La Salles from Lone Cone, which supports 
breeding Brown-cappeds. 


I'm happy with your bird and the first three of the "adults" from Utah as 
Brown-capped Rosy-Finches. I believe that the fourth "adult" is not a 
Brown-capped and probably not an adult (see discussion of rosy ageing in cited 
paper, above). The brown of that bird's plumage is identical in tone to that of 
the nearby Gray-crowneds and, despite the odd head pattern, I feel that 
Gray-crowned may be a more comfortable fit for it. 


Many immature Brown-cappeds (mostly/all females??) are most notable by their 
lack of field marks, being a very boring grayish-tannish-brown all over, often 
with little in the way of head pattern. The bird(s) depicted in the third and 
fourth links to "young birds" have distinct gray sides to the black crown 
patch, which, I believe, is outside the range of variation for Brown-capped; 
I'd suggest immature female Black as a more-suitable ID (though one might 
invoke the "h" word, too). The first two pix seem to be of the same individual 
(and different from the bird(s) in the fourth and fifth pix as discerned by 
less-distinct gray in the crown/superciliary and whiter -- vs. pinker -- 
wing-covert edging) may well be Brown-cappeds, with the apparently colder tone 
and extensive pale fringing to the body plumage being, perhaps, the best 
characters. 


Our work color-banding 1000s of rosy-finches in Colorado has produced just one 
recovery (of a Gray-crowned) outside the state (from Wyoming in spring). Our 
within-Colorado re-sightings and recaptures of banded Brown-cappeds have all 
come from locations in the same ranges in which they were banded. In fact, if 
it weren't for the large numbers regularly found at Sandia Crest, NM (well away 
from known breeding range), in winter, I'd think the species hardly migrated at 
all, other than the regular up-and-downhill movements that we've documented. 


Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Avery 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Sat, Jan 24, 2015 9:05 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Brown-capped Rosy-Finches in Utah


This winter that have been an unprecedented number of reports of
Brown-capped Rosy-Finches along the Wasatch Front in Salt Lake
County--prior to this winter the species had never been reported on the
west edge of the Rockies here--with one report from extreme southeast Utah
several winters ago, in a location this species is suspected to winter with
some frequency.  This isn't neccessarily and ID-F type question but the
information I am seeking seems limited and I can't find any good
resources--so keep readin if interested.

The reports in Salt Lake vary with as many as 4 apparently "different"
birders, 2 young, and 2 different adults.  Up till today I was 0 for 4 on
locating any said birds, but did take shots of what appears to be an
apparent adult Brown-capped Rosy-Finch:

http://www.timaverybirding.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&
pid=14560#top_display_media

This bird does appear to be different from the other reported adults from
the area:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tsirtalis/15853579017
https://www.flickr.com/photos/87418551 AT N02/15399395764
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/16080942399
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15649199723

And here are the young birds:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15829108778
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15977695981
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15792249870
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15978852512
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15644914764

I'll hold my full opinion on some of these birds but 1st, is are all these
Brown-capped?

And if so  I guess one major question I have is in the realm of the H
word.  Is it possible to rule out any of the species, or a possible hybrid?


And what would that even look like?

I know Black and Brown-capped do hybridize where they overlap, and I would
assume if these birds are Brown-capped they are coming from the northern
end of the range.

I've kept mum on this locally because my experience with Brown-capped is
limited to one Colorado encounter nearly 15 years ago. There hasn't been
much discussion from parties that know the species well, and that may just
be that no one locally really does.  There has been some input from staff
at RMBO on one of the birds that thought it was a safe bet for Brown-capped.

Given this species patterns of vagrancy northern Utah isn't the most likely
location for multiple individuals to show up and I think everyone here is a
little surprised.

Thanks in advance,

Tim

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Brown-capped Rosy-Finches in Utah
From: Tim Avery <western.tanager AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 19:01:16 -0700
This winter that have been an unprecedented number of reports of
Brown-capped Rosy-Finches along the Wasatch Front in Salt Lake
County--prior to this winter the species had never been reported on the
west edge of the Rockies here--with one report from extreme southeast Utah
several winters ago, in a location this species is suspected to winter with
some frequency.  This isn't neccessarily and ID-F type question but the
information I am seeking seems limited and I can't find any good
resources--so keep readin if interested.

The reports in Salt Lake vary with as many as 4 apparently "different"
birders, 2 young, and 2 different adults.  Up till today I was 0 for 4 on
locating any said birds, but did take shots of what appears to be an
apparent adult Brown-capped Rosy-Finch:

http://www.timaverybirding.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&
pid=14560#top_display_media

This bird does appear to be different from the other reported adults from
the area:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tsirtalis/15853579017
https://www.flickr.com/photos/87418551 AT N02/15399395764
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/16080942399
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15649199723

And here are the young birds:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15829108778
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15977695981
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15792249870
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15978852512
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15644914764

I'll hold my full opinion on some of these birds but 1st, is are all these
Brown-capped?

And if so  I guess one major question I have is in the realm of the H
word.  Is it possible to rule out any of the species, or a possible hybrid?


And what would that even look like?

I know Black and Brown-capped do hybridize where they overlap, and I would
assume if these birds are Brown-capped they are coming from the northern
end of the range.

I've kept mum on this locally because my experience with Brown-capped is
limited to one Colorado encounter nearly 15 years ago. There hasn't been
much discussion from parties that know the species well, and that may just
be that no one locally really does.  There has been some input from staff
at RMBO on one of the birds that thought it was a safe bet for Brown-capped.

Given this species patterns of vagrancy northern Utah isn't the most likely
location for multiple individuals to show up and I think everyone here is a
little surprised.

Thanks in advance,

Tim

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Additional photos of presumed Kelp Gull
From: Ben Coulter <anax_longipes AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 21:49:30 +0000
Hi all,
Regarding the previous post about the putative Kelp Gull from Pennsylvania, Tom 
Moeller now has his photos online as 
well:https://picasaweb.google.com/104676662081154017882/KelpGullInPittsburgh 

 I believe they were taken at the same time and location as Daniel Weeks' 
photos in the last post. 

Cheers,Ben CoulterPittsburgh, PAhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/somatochlora/


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Presumed Kelp Gull-Pennsylvania
From: Ben Coulter <anax_longipes AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 17:13:48 +0000
Hi all,
It's been quite a while since there was a gull identification discussion on 
this list. My apologies in advance to the larophobes. 

On January 17, 2015, I found a large, dark-mantled gull on the Ohio River in 
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania that appears to be a Kelp Gull. It was similar in size 
to American Herring Gulls present (perhaps marginally larger), but probably 
also acceptable for a very small female Great Black-backed. The bird showed a 
clean white head with pale iris and stout yellow bill with reddish-orange 
gonydeal spot, mantle color at least as dark as Great Black-backed, a small 
white mirror on P10, no mirror on P9, wide white trailing edge to secondaries 
and thick white tertial crescent, short primary projection, and long, pale 
yellowish-pink or orangish legs and feet. My primary concern for Kelp Gull was 
that the leg color was not cold greenish-gray or yellow, but showed a hint of 
warmer color. I now suspect this may be within the range of variation for Kelp 
Gull, and some subsequent photos of the bird show more yellowish legs than my 
own photos. 

Commentary on Facebook has generally been supportive of the identification of 
Kelp Gull, but a few people have expressed reservations about the leg color. I 
was hoping to solicit additional opinions, especially by those with extensive 
experience with the species. On or off-list is fine. 

My initial, somewhat distant photos, and a video showing the wing pattern, are 
at:https://www.flickr.com/photos/somatochlora/sets/72157650012667518/ 


Daniel Weeks and Tom Moeller photographed the gull as it preened the following 
day. They were somewhat closer to the bird. Daniel's photos can be viewed 
here:https://www.flickr.com/photos/118371714 AT N07/16127223508/in/photostream/ 


Cheers,Ben CoulterPittsburgh, PAhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/somatochlora/


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: On human cognitive bias, birds and light, and image forensics
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 07:56:26 +0000
All,

 

Members of this list may find some recent postings of interest.  

 

FORENSICS / BIRDS AND LIGHT

Lighting and Avian Anatomy


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/01/field-marks-lighting-and-avian-anatomy.html 


Lighting and Bareparts


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/01/field-marks-lighting-and-bare-parts.html 


Underexposure


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/01/forensics-gaussian-analysis.html 


Artefacts


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/forensics-gaussian-analysis-artefacts.html 


White Balance


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/forensics-gaussian-analysis-white.html 


Lighting and Perspective


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/birds-and-light-lighting-and-perspective.html 


Defocus


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/forensics-gaussian-analysis-defocus.html 


Colour Sample Homogeneity – a technique using the Gaussian Blur Tool


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/colour-sampling-sample-homogenity-and.html 


High Dynamic Range Imaging


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/forensics-hdr-imaging-from-raw.html 


Lighting in Arid and Semiarid Areas


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/birds-and-light-arid-and-semiarid-areas.html 


Lighting in Snow and Ice


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/birds-and-light-on-snow-ice.html 


Winter Solstice


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/winter-solstice-in-ireland.html 


 

HUMAN COGNITIVE BIAS AND BIRD IDENTIFICATION

An Introduction


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/an-introduction-to-human-bias.html 


Distraction

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/human-bias-distraction.html 

Memory Bias

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/human-bias-memory.html

Evaluation Bias

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/human-bias-evaluation.html 

The Self and the Group

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/human-bias-self-group.html

Experimental Bias

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/01/human-bias-experimental.html 


Ten Tips


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/01/human-bias-summary-conclusions.html 


 

A QUICK DIGITAL IMAGING REFERENCE GUIDE

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/quick-reference-guide.html 

 

 

Regards

 

Mike O’Keeffe

Ireland

 

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/ 

 

 

 

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Black Terns with pink flush, brown belly & subterminal tail bands
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 22:24:48 -0500
Hi All,
 
I was reading with great interest posts about barn swallow winter plumages. 
 Although for some time I plan to post about Black Tern winter plumages 
that are  not matching traits published in scientific papers (and of course 
these in bird  guides as well) I still do not have photos ready yet so I 
decided that I will  start with some aberrant individuals and example of one 
individual that I think  shows pink flush in white feathers. Of course I will 
appreciate opinions and  sharing info on any similar records; or negative 
records (about pink flush) from  those who have opportunity to observe BLTE in 
large numbers.
 
BTW I collect examples of BLTE plumages during different seasons for some  
time now and as they are often showing around here (Texas) in flocks of  
thousands and almost every individual bird shows some differences from others 
it  is easy to grow a huge collection of photos. I lost count long time ago.
 
Here are photo examples of birds I mentioned above:
 
1 - Brown-reddish belly – interesting individual that might have some  
melanin reduction in some parts of black feather tracks. 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158892773
 
2 - Pink flush – some areas of neck and forehead white feathers sport pink  
flush that I believe is related to diet of this particular individual. Many 
 gulls, skimmers and terns sport this phenomena (proven to be diet related; 
e.g.  Elegant Tern) on seasonal basis but some (e.g. Royal Tern, personal 
observation)  only sporadically and only by very few individuals. I am not 
aware of any BLTE  published record nor I ever seen before BLTE with pink 
flash. I was taking under consideration possible stain as well but it seems, to 

me, that this is rather  unlikely and flush from ingested carotenoids could 
be a more plausible cause.  
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158892775
 
3 – Tail (and uppertail coverts) with few rows of bands - HY. I have seen  
some single tail feathers in other birds that shown anomalies (with abnormal 
 pigment distribution) but never something like that (pattern symmetry in 
all  feathers) in bird that ‘normally’ have solid colored tail. As you can 
see both,  tail and uppertail covert feathers are showing the same aberrant 
pattern. 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158892777
 

Cheers,
 
Mark B  Bartosik
Houston, Texas
 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Barn Swallow With Brown Back
From: David Roemer <dlroemer AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 01:02:15 +0000
Two Barn Swallows were present at a body of water during January, 2003 in 
Muhlenberg County, Kentucky.  One exhibited typical plumage while the other 
was brown and white, lacking the blue iridescent upperparts and buffy 
underparts.  This led to some discussion among observers as to the 
identification.  I was able to obtain video through my scope which showed 
white spots in the tail confirming the ID as a Barn Swallow.  I have 
placed 6 stills lifted from the video in a gallery which may be accessed by 
the link below.  Please pardon the poor quality of the images.     


https://www.flickr.com/photos/130689495 AT N04/sets/72157649947508387/ dave David 
L. RoemerBowling Green, Ky. 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Barn Swallow with brown back?
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 11:01:11 +0000
Alvaro, 

You will get no argument from me on that point. 

Dave 

> From: chucao AT coastside.net
> To: llsdirons AT MSN.COM; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Barn Swallow with brown back?
> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 23:19:25 -0800
> 
> Dave 
> 
>   If the speculation is that they come from the Argentine breeding
> population, that makes no sense. They should be breeding right now in
> mid-winter. George Armistead and I saw a Barn Swallow in mid primary molt at
> Chincoteague last summer. Now that makes more sense for an Argentine
> breeder. 
> 
> Alvaro 
> 
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons
> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 6:53 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Barn Swallow with brown back?
> 
> Angus,
> 
> I can't recall any out of season (Nov-Mar) Bank Swallow reports from Oregon
> and Washington. I just looked at Birds of Washington (Wahl et al. Eds. 2005)
> and Birds of Oregon: A General Reference (Marshall et al. Eds 2003). BOW
> lists one January record from e. Washington, but there are no details other
> than the date and location. Perhaps Steve Mlodinow knows the background of
> this record. BOGR makes no mention of Bank Swallows in Oregon after the late
> date of 8 October. The editors of the Oregon book normally at least
> mentioned undocumented reports in their text, so I suspect that they either
> didn't find any or found such reports to be wholly without merit.
> 
> Mid-winter Barn Swallows, formerly extremely rare in the PNW, are now being
> detected annually and in some numbers from central California north to
> southwestern British Columbia. There has been some interesting speculation
> about the source population of these birds. 
> 
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 18:47:00 -0500
> > From: oceanwanderers AT GMAIL.COM
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Barn Swallow with brown back?
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > 
> > Wayne, thanks for sharing this and for Alvaro and David for 
> > instructive responses.
> > 
> > In addition to the brown upperparts, it's easy to imagine the lack of 
> > color on the throat would also throw a lot of birders off the scent, 
> > at least those residing in the northern hemisphere. It's fortunate 
> > that the observer in this example included photos, although I'm 
> > surprised he was not more troubled by the projecting outer tail 
> > feathers. Perhaps if you've already mentally dismissed Barn Swallow these
> might not register as an issue.
> > 
> > I'll throw out a broader question. Are there other examples of winter 
> > 'bank swallow' being reported in the Pacific NW without photos that 
> > might also be reinterpreted as lingering Barn Swallows? This could be 
> > a recurring error because popular Nearctic (e.g. Sibley) and W 
> > Palearctic (e.g. Mullarney et
> > al) guides only depict darker birds with a more discernable reddish 
> > wash to the throat and feathering above the bill.
> > 
> > Angus Wilson
> > New York, USA
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Wayne Weber  wrote:
> > 
> > > Birders,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On January 10th, a brown-backed swallow with a breast band was seen 
> > > and photographed at Point Roberts, Washington (just south of the 
> > > Canadian border). Three photos of this bird were posted by one 
> > > observer in his eBird checklist, and can be seen at this address:
> > > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S21319380 (posted with 
> > > the approval of the observer). The swallow was initially identified 
> > > as a Bank Swallow. For a number of reasons, however, I believe this 
> > > was a very dull immature Barn Swallow. (There were several other 
> > > reports of Barn Swallows in nearby areas around this time.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Comments on this bird would be greatly appreciated. Do you think 
> > > that this is a Barn Swallow? Has anyone else seen a Barn Swallow 
> > > which seems to be almost completely lacking any blue iridescence on 
> > > the back? If it is a Barn Swallow, I don't think I've ever seen one this
> dull.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Wayne C. Weber
> > >
> > > Delta, BC, Canada
> > >
> > > contopus AT telus.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > Angus Wilson
> > New York City & The Springs, NY, USA
> > http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/
> > 
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>  		 	   		  
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> 
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Barn Swallow with brown back?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 23:19:25 -0800
Dave 

  If the speculation is that they come from the Argentine breeding
population, that makes no sense. They should be breeding right now in
mid-winter. George Armistead and I saw a Barn Swallow in mid primary molt at
Chincoteague last summer. Now that makes more sense for an Argentine
breeder. 

Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 6:53 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Barn Swallow with brown back?

Angus,

I can't recall any out of season (Nov-Mar) Bank Swallow reports from Oregon
and Washington. I just looked at Birds of Washington (Wahl et al. Eds. 2005)
and Birds of Oregon: A General Reference (Marshall et al. Eds 2003). BOW
lists one January record from e. Washington, but there are no details other
than the date and location. Perhaps Steve Mlodinow knows the background of
this record. BOGR makes no mention of Bank Swallows in Oregon after the late
date of 8 October. The editors of the Oregon book normally at least
mentioned undocumented reports in their text, so I suspect that they either
didn't find any or found such reports to be wholly without merit.

Mid-winter Barn Swallows, formerly extremely rare in the PNW, are now being
detected annually and in some numbers from central California north to
southwestern British Columbia. There has been some interesting speculation
about the source population of these birds. 

Dave Irons
Portland, OR




> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 18:47:00 -0500
> From: oceanwanderers AT GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Barn Swallow with brown back?
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Wayne, thanks for sharing this and for Alvaro and David for 
> instructive responses.
> 
> In addition to the brown upperparts, it's easy to imagine the lack of 
> color on the throat would also throw a lot of birders off the scent, 
> at least those residing in the northern hemisphere. It's fortunate 
> that the observer in this example included photos, although I'm 
> surprised he was not more troubled by the projecting outer tail 
> feathers. Perhaps if you've already mentally dismissed Barn Swallow these
might not register as an issue.
> 
> I'll throw out a broader question. Are there other examples of winter 
> 'bank swallow' being reported in the Pacific NW without photos that 
> might also be reinterpreted as lingering Barn Swallows? This could be 
> a recurring error because popular Nearctic (e.g. Sibley) and W 
> Palearctic (e.g. Mullarney et
> al) guides only depict darker birds with a more discernable reddish 
> wash to the throat and feathering above the bill.
> 
> Angus Wilson
> New York, USA
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Wayne Weber  wrote:
> 
> > Birders,
> >
> >
> >
> > On January 10th, a brown-backed swallow with a breast band was seen 
> > and photographed at Point Roberts, Washington (just south of the 
> > Canadian border). Three photos of this bird were posted by one 
> > observer in his eBird checklist, and can be seen at this address:
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S21319380 (posted with 
> > the approval of the observer). The swallow was initially identified 
> > as a Bank Swallow. For a number of reasons, however, I believe this 
> > was a very dull immature Barn Swallow. (There were several other 
> > reports of Barn Swallows in nearby areas around this time.)
> >
> >
> >
> > Comments on this bird would be greatly appreciated. Do you think 
> > that this is a Barn Swallow? Has anyone else seen a Barn Swallow 
> > which seems to be almost completely lacking any blue iridescence on 
> > the back? If it is a Barn Swallow, I don't think I've ever seen one this
dull.
> >
> >
> >
> > Wayne C. Weber
> >
> > Delta, BC, Canada
> >
> > contopus AT telus.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Angus Wilson
> New York City & The Springs, NY, USA
> http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Barn Swallow with brown back?
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 02:53:24 +0000
Angus,

I can't recall any out of season (Nov-Mar) Bank Swallow reports from Oregon and 
Washington. I just looked at Birds of Washington (Wahl et al. Eds. 2005) and 
Birds of Oregon: A General Reference (Marshall et al. Eds 2003). BOW lists one 
January record from e. Washington, but there are no details other than the date 
and location. Perhaps Steve Mlodinow knows the background of this record. BOGR 
makes no mention of Bank Swallows in Oregon after the late date of 8 October. 
The editors of the Oregon book normally at least mentioned undocumented reports 
in their text, so I suspect that they either didn't find any or found such 
reports to be wholly without merit. 


Mid-winter Barn Swallows, formerly extremely rare in the PNW, are now being 
detected annually and in some numbers from central California north to 
southwestern British Columbia. There has been some interesting speculation 
about the source population of these birds. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR




> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 18:47:00 -0500
> From: oceanwanderers AT GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Barn Swallow with brown back?
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Wayne, thanks for sharing this and for Alvaro and David for instructive
> responses.
> 
> In addition to the brown upperparts, it's easy to imagine the lack of color
> on the throat would also throw a lot of birders off the scent, at least
> those residing in the northern hemisphere. It's fortunate that the observer
> in this example included photos, although I'm surprised he was not more
> troubled by the projecting outer tail feathers. Perhaps if you've already
> mentally dismissed Barn Swallow these might not register as an issue.
> 
> I'll throw out a broader question. Are there other examples of winter 'bank
> swallow' being reported in the Pacific NW without photos that might also be
> reinterpreted as lingering Barn Swallows? This could be a recurring error
> because popular Nearctic (e.g. Sibley) and W Palearctic (e.g. Mullarney et
> al) guides only depict darker birds with a more discernable reddish wash to
> the throat and feathering above the bill.
> 
> Angus Wilson
> New York, USA
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Wayne Weber  wrote:
> 
> > Birders,
> >
> >
> >
> > On January 10th, a brown-backed swallow with a breast band was seen and
> > photographed at Point Roberts, Washington (just south of the Canadian
> > border). Three photos of this bird were posted by one observer in his eBird
> > checklist, and can be seen at this address:
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S21319380 (posted with the
> > approval of the observer). The swallow was initially identified as a Bank
> > Swallow. For a number of reasons, however, I believe this was a very dull
> > immature Barn Swallow. (There were several other reports of Barn Swallows
> > in
> > nearby areas around this time.)
> >
> >
> >
> > Comments on this bird would be greatly appreciated. Do you think that this
> > is a Barn Swallow? Has anyone else seen a Barn Swallow which seems to be
> > almost completely lacking any blue iridescence on the back? If it is a Barn
> > Swallow, I don't think I've ever seen one this dull.
> >
> >
> >
> > Wayne C. Weber
> >
> > Delta, BC, Canada
> >
> > contopus AT telus.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Angus Wilson
> New York City & The Springs, NY, USA
> http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Barn Swallow with brown back?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 17:09:22 -0800
Angus et al. 

 I should add that in recent years, here on the central California coast we are 
seeing passage of northbound Barn Swallows as early as December. No one has any 
idea what they are doing, often it is during a rather warm day, offshore winds 
even better. I saw some last week going north. They are always going north, and 
as far as I know they are not detected in the interior, just the coast. No idea 
if the same issue is noted in southern California. 


Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Angus Wilson 

Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 3:47 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Barn Swallow with brown back?

Wayne, thanks for sharing this and for Alvaro and David for instructive 
responses. 


In addition to the brown upperparts, it's easy to imagine the lack of color on 
the throat would also throw a lot of birders off the scent, at least those 
residing in the northern hemisphere. It's fortunate that the observer in this 
example included photos, although I'm surprised he was not more troubled by the 
projecting outer tail feathers. Perhaps if you've already mentally dismissed 
Barn Swallow these might not register as an issue. 


I'll throw out a broader question. Are there other examples of winter 'bank 
swallow' being reported in the Pacific NW without photos that might also be 
reinterpreted as lingering Barn Swallows? This could be a recurring error 
because popular Nearctic (e.g. Sibley) and W Palearctic (e.g. Mullarney et 

al) guides only depict darker birds with a more discernable reddish wash to the 
throat and feathering above the bill. 


Angus Wilson
New York, USA


On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Wayne Weber  wrote:

> Birders,
>
>
>
> On January 10th, a brown-backed swallow with a breast band was seen 
> and photographed at Point Roberts, Washington (just south of the 
> Canadian border). Three photos of this bird were posted by one 
> observer in his eBird checklist, and can be seen at this address:
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S21319380 (posted with the 
> approval of the observer). The swallow was initially identified as a 
> Bank Swallow. For a number of reasons, however, I believe this was a 
> very dull immature Barn Swallow. (There were several other reports of 
> Barn Swallows in nearby areas around this time.)
>
>
>
> Comments on this bird would be greatly appreciated. Do you think that 
> this is a Barn Swallow? Has anyone else seen a Barn Swallow which 
> seems to be almost completely lacking any blue iridescence on the 
> back? If it is a Barn Swallow, I don't think I've ever seen one this dull.
>
>
>
> Wayne C. Weber
>
> Delta, BC, Canada
>
> contopus AT telus.net
>
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



--
Angus Wilson
New York City & The Springs, NY, USA
http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Barn Swallow with brown back?
From: Angus Wilson <oceanwanderers AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 18:47:00 -0500
Wayne, thanks for sharing this and for Alvaro and David for instructive
responses.

In addition to the brown upperparts, it's easy to imagine the lack of color
on the throat would also throw a lot of birders off the scent, at least
those residing in the northern hemisphere. It's fortunate that the observer
in this example included photos, although I'm surprised he was not more
troubled by the projecting outer tail feathers. Perhaps if you've already
mentally dismissed Barn Swallow these might not register as an issue.

I'll throw out a broader question. Are there other examples of winter 'bank
swallow' being reported in the Pacific NW without photos that might also be
reinterpreted as lingering Barn Swallows? This could be a recurring error
because popular Nearctic (e.g. Sibley) and W Palearctic (e.g. Mullarney et
al) guides only depict darker birds with a more discernable reddish wash to
the throat and feathering above the bill.

Angus Wilson
New York, USA


On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Wayne Weber  wrote:

> Birders,
>
>
>
> On January 10th, a brown-backed swallow with a breast band was seen and
> photographed at Point Roberts, Washington (just south of the Canadian
> border). Three photos of this bird were posted by one observer in his eBird
> checklist, and can be seen at this address:
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S21319380 (posted with the
> approval of the observer). The swallow was initially identified as a Bank
> Swallow. For a number of reasons, however, I believe this was a very dull
> immature Barn Swallow. (There were several other reports of Barn Swallows
> in
> nearby areas around this time.)
>
>
>
> Comments on this bird would be greatly appreciated. Do you think that this
> is a Barn Swallow? Has anyone else seen a Barn Swallow which seems to be
> almost completely lacking any blue iridescence on the back? If it is a Barn
> Swallow, I don't think I've ever seen one this dull.
>
>
>
> Wayne C. Weber
>
> Delta, BC, Canada
>
> contopus AT telus.net
>
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Angus Wilson
New York City & The Springs, NY, USA
http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Barn Swallow with brown back?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 14:20:32 -0800
All

  If you google in Spanish and get wintering Barn Swallow photos, you see a
lot of similar birds. I see birds like this commonly in Chile, here are
photos from Chile. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/s_saiter_v/11042071945/
http://www.fotonaturaleza.cl/details.php?image_id=40086


Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 2:00 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Barn Swallow with brown back?

Wayne,

I agree, this is clearly not a Bank Swallow. I further concur that it is a
Barn Swallow, although I don't recall having seen one that struck me as
being so brown on the back. I did find a similar-looking bird in an online
photo (link below), that is, ironically, mis-labeled as a Bank Swallow.
Light underwing linings, long outer retrices, lack of contrast between the
mantle and the wings and lack of dark extending down along the flanks from
the sides of the breast all point away from Bank.

http://www.liveanimalslist.com/birds/bank-swallow.php

In the link above, scroll down to the first set of side-by-side images. The
bird on the left is a brown-backed Barn Swallow that looks quite a bit like
the Point Roberts bird. 

Dave Irons
Portland, OR 



> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 12:31:39 -0800
> From: contopus AT TELUS.NET
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Barn Swallow with brown back?
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Birders,
> 
>  
> 
> On January 10th, a brown-backed swallow with a breast band was seen 
> and photographed at Point Roberts, Washington (just south of the 
> Canadian border). Three photos of this bird were posted by one 
> observer in his eBird checklist, and can be seen at this address:
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S21319380 (posted with the 
> approval of the observer). The swallow was initially identified as a 
> Bank Swallow. For a number of reasons, however, I believe this was a 
> very dull immature Barn Swallow. (There were several other reports of 
> Barn Swallows in nearby areas around this time.)
> 
>  
> 
> Comments on this bird would be greatly appreciated. Do you think that 
> this is a Barn Swallow? Has anyone else seen a Barn Swallow which 
> seems to be almost completely lacking any blue iridescence on the 
> back? If it is a Barn Swallow, I don't think I've ever seen one this dull.
> 
>  
> 
> Wayne C. Weber
> 
> Delta, BC, Canada
> 
> contopus AT telus.net
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Barn Swallow with brown back?
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 22:00:25 +0000
Wayne,

I agree, this is clearly not a Bank Swallow. I further concur that it is a Barn 
Swallow, although I don't recall having seen one that struck me as being so 
brown on the back. I did find a similar-looking bird in an online photo (link 
below), that is, ironically, mis-labeled as a Bank Swallow. Light underwing 
linings, long outer retrices, lack of contrast between the mantle and the wings 
and lack of dark extending down along the flanks from the sides of the breast 
all point away from Bank. 


http://www.liveanimalslist.com/birds/bank-swallow.php

In the link above, scroll down to the first set of side-by-side images. The 
bird on the left is a brown-backed Barn Swallow that looks quite a bit like the 
Point Roberts bird. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR 



> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 12:31:39 -0800
> From: contopus AT TELUS.NET
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Barn Swallow with brown back?
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Birders,
> 
>  
> 
> On January 10th, a brown-backed swallow with a breast band was seen and
> photographed at Point Roberts, Washington (just south of the Canadian
> border). Three photos of this bird were posted by one observer in his eBird
> checklist, and can be seen at this address:
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S21319380 (posted with the
> approval of the observer). The swallow was initially identified as a Bank
> Swallow. For a number of reasons, however, I believe this was a very dull
> immature Barn Swallow. (There were several other reports of Barn Swallows in
> nearby areas around this time.)
> 
>  
> 
> Comments on this bird would be greatly appreciated. Do you think that this
> is a Barn Swallow? Has anyone else seen a Barn Swallow which seems to be
> almost completely lacking any blue iridescence on the back? If it is a Barn
> Swallow, I don't think I've ever seen one this dull.
> 
>  
> 
> Wayne C. Weber
> 
> Delta, BC, Canada
> 
> contopus AT telus.net
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Barn Swallow with brown back?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 13:27:23 -0800
Wayne

  This is a standard look for Barn Swallow in the neotropics in winter, that
is absolutely normal for a youngster. So yes, agreed it is a Barn Swallow. 

Regards, 
Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Wayne Weber
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 12:32 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Barn Swallow with brown back?

Birders,

 

On January 10th, a brown-backed swallow with a breast band was seen and
photographed at Point Roberts, Washington (just south of the Canadian
border). Three photos of this bird were posted by one observer in his eBird
checklist, and can be seen at this address:
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S21319380 (posted with the
approval of the observer). The swallow was initially identified as a Bank
Swallow. For a number of reasons, however, I believe this was a very dull
immature Barn Swallow. (There were several other reports of Barn Swallows in
nearby areas around this time.)

 

Comments on this bird would be greatly appreciated. Do you think that this
is a Barn Swallow? Has anyone else seen a Barn Swallow which seems to be
almost completely lacking any blue iridescence on the back? If it is a Barn
Swallow, I don't think I've ever seen one this dull.

 

Wayne C. Weber

Delta, BC, Canada

contopus AT telus.net

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Barn Swallow with brown back?
From: Wayne Weber <contopus AT TELUS.NET>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 12:31:39 -0800
Birders,

 

On January 10th, a brown-backed swallow with a breast band was seen and
photographed at Point Roberts, Washington (just south of the Canadian
border). Three photos of this bird were posted by one observer in his eBird
checklist, and can be seen at this address:
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S21319380 (posted with the
approval of the observer). The swallow was initially identified as a Bank
Swallow. For a number of reasons, however, I believe this was a very dull
immature Barn Swallow. (There were several other reports of Barn Swallows in
nearby areas around this time.)

 

Comments on this bird would be greatly appreciated. Do you think that this
is a Barn Swallow? Has anyone else seen a Barn Swallow which seems to be
almost completely lacking any blue iridescence on the back? If it is a Barn
Swallow, I don't think I've ever seen one this dull.

 

Wayne C. Weber

Delta, BC, Canada

contopus AT telus.net

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Brant ID problems
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 00:40:29 +0000
There is also the issue of Pale-bellied x Black Brant hybrids, which are very 
similar to Gray-bellied. I believe Martin Garner has looked into this issue 
based on birds seen wintering in Ireland (that come from N. America). 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Lehman 

Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 2:50 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Brant ID problems

 From what I understand, the West Coast Brant situation is even murkier than 
Alvaro and Tristan may be suggesting. We've had a couple very pale bellied 
Brant (w/ photos) in San Diego County the past few years, and we assumed at the 
time that they were likely true Pale-bellied, "Atlantic" 

Brant (hrota). But we were then informed by a Brant researcher (works in the 
Morro Bay area, at least) that the pale extreme of "Gray-bellied" 

Brant can look this pale (and with strong contrast between neck-sock and 
belly)! So of course this begs the question of how one can safely identify such 
western critters in the field as one or the other taxon. 

It also calls in to question exactly how many reports in the "ornithological 
record" of "Pale-bellied" Brant between western Alaska and southern California 
(and presumably Baja) are actually, truly hrota, and how many were actually 
pale-end "Gray-bellieds." I certainly know of a number of reports of 
"Pale-bellieds" from southern California and from the Nome area in w. 
Alaska--now mostly in question, it would seem. 


Sounds like a can of worms, and I certainly don't know the answers.

--Paul Lehman,  San Diego

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Brant confusion
From: whoffman AT PEAK.ORG
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 14:54:46 -0800
Hi - 

A couple of thoughts - I am not sure I agree that Gray-bellied Brant is more 
likely than Atlantic. For one thing, I think Grey-bellied has a much smaller 
population, and smaller breeding range, with maybe the whole migration in a few 
flocks? So maybe lower propensity to stray? Also the normal wintering range is 
at higher latitude, which may reduce tendency to stray southward. 


I have found a couple of birds at Newort, OR that I have identified as Atlantic 
Brant, and that appear too pale for Gray-bellied. I hav not seen any birds that 
I thought were Gray-bellied. 


IMO, the bird in your photos is pale enough that Atlantic would not be ruled 
out. 


Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tristan McKee" 
To: "BIRDWG01" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 10:59:16 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Brant confusion

Hi Alvaro -

Not sure if I can help much, but it got me thinking--Atlantic Brant seems to be 
claimed more often in CA (I think I've seen two), so are we just overlooking 
these intermediate-looking ones? Or is it a latitude thing? I agree that it's 
not a Black, but in the distance I'd probably pass it over. This bird does have 
a considerably darker lower breast than I associate with Atlantic, so I'm 
guessing your inclination toward Gray-bellied is correct, but I'm not sure how 
certain we can be about juvs. 


Cheers,
Tristan McKee
Arcata, CA

> On Jan 13, 2015, at 10:03 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo  wrote:
> 
> Hi folks
> 
> 
> 
>    In December I photographed this mixed group of Brant here in Half Moon
> Bay, California where Black Brant is the expected and so far only type of
> Brant we have detected. However this group had one juvenile that was
> substantially paler than the adults and juvenile Black Brant in the group.
> It has a clear paler belly than the neck sock, as well it has no dark in the
> vent beyond the legs. The more likely paler brant here is the Grey-bellied
> (now nigrescens) which winters well to the north of us. That form is
> variable but on the whole tends to look somewhat intermediate between Black
> and Atlantic (Pale-bellied) Brant. The issue is that this juvenile still has
> not developed the white on the neck, so one feature to look for is not
> there. Similarly the flank pattern is not developed yet. So the question is
> how or can one tell if this is a Grey-bellied rather than a Pale-bellied
> Brant? On Facebook folks were pretty convinced that this is no Black Brant.
> Any thoughts on the identification? 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/alvarojaramillo
> 
> 
> 
> Alvaro 
> 
> 
> 
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> 
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> 
> www.alvarosadventures.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

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Subject: Re: Brant ID problems
From: Paul Lehman <lehman.paul1 AT VERIZON.NET>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 14:49:45 -0800
 From what I understand, the West Coast Brant situation is even murkier 
than Alvaro and Tristan may be suggesting. We've had a couple very pale 
bellied Brant (w/ photos) in San Diego County the past few years, and we 
assumed at the time that they were likely true Pale-bellied, "Atlantic" 
Brant (hrota).  But we were then informed by a Brant researcher (works 
in the Morro Bay area, at least) that the pale extreme of "Gray-bellied" 
Brant can look this pale (and with strong contrast between neck-sock and 
belly)!  So of course this begs the question of how one can safely 
identify such western critters in the field as one or the other taxon.  
It also calls in to question exactly how many reports in the 
"ornithological record" of "Pale-bellied" Brant between western Alaska 
and southern California (and presumably Baja) are actually, truly hrota, 
and how many were actually pale-end "Gray-bellieds." I certainly know of 
a number of reports of "Pale-bellieds" from southern California and from 
the Nome area in w. Alaska--now mostly in question, it would seem.

Sounds like a can of worms, and I certainly don't know the answers.

--Paul Lehman,  San Diego

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Subject: Re: Brant confusion
From: Tristan McKee <atmckee AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 10:59:16 -0800
Hi Alvaro -

Not sure if I can help much, but it got me thinking--Atlantic Brant seems to be 
claimed more often in CA (I think I've seen two), so are we just overlooking 
these intermediate-looking ones? Or is it a latitude thing? I agree that it's 
not a Black, but in the distance I'd probably pass it over. This bird does have 
a considerably darker lower breast than I associate with Atlantic, so I'm 
guessing your inclination toward Gray-bellied is correct, but I'm not sure how 
certain we can be about juvs. 


Cheers,
Tristan McKee
Arcata, CA

> On Jan 13, 2015, at 10:03 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo  wrote:
> 
> Hi folks
> 
> 
> 
>    In December I photographed this mixed group of Brant here in Half Moon
> Bay, California where Black Brant is the expected and so far only type of
> Brant we have detected. However this group had one juvenile that was
> substantially paler than the adults and juvenile Black Brant in the group.
> It has a clear paler belly than the neck sock, as well it has no dark in the
> vent beyond the legs. The more likely paler brant here is the Grey-bellied
> (now nigrescens) which winters well to the north of us. That form is
> variable but on the whole tends to look somewhat intermediate between Black
> and Atlantic (Pale-bellied) Brant. The issue is that this juvenile still has
> not developed the white on the neck, so one feature to look for is not
> there. Similarly the flank pattern is not developed yet. So the question is
> how or can one tell if this is a Grey-bellied rather than a Pale-bellied
> Brant? On Facebook folks were pretty convinced that this is no Black Brant.
> Any thoughts on the identification? 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/alvarojaramillo
> 
> 
> 
> Alvaro 
> 
> 
> 
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> 
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> 
> www.alvarosadventures.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Brant confusion
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 10:03:29 -0800
Hi folks

 

    In December I photographed this mixed group of Brant here in Half Moon
Bay, California where Black Brant is the expected and so far only type of
Brant we have detected. However this group had one juvenile that was
substantially paler than the adults and juvenile Black Brant in the group.
It has a clear paler belly than the neck sock, as well it has no dark in the
vent beyond the legs. The more likely paler brant here is the Grey-bellied
(now nigrescens) which winters well to the north of us. That form is
variable but on the whole tends to look somewhat intermediate between Black
and Atlantic (Pale-bellied) Brant. The issue is that this juvenile still has
not developed the white on the neck, so one feature to look for is not
there. Similarly the flank pattern is not developed yet. So the question is
how or can one tell if this is a Grey-bellied rather than a Pale-bellied
Brant? On Facebook folks were pretty convinced that this is no Black Brant.
Any thoughts on the identification? 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/alvarojaramillo

 

Alvaro 

 

Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com

 


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Subject: NY Grosbeak
From: David Wheeler <tigger64 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 21:42:57 -0500
The bird below has been coming to a feeder sporadically since late November. I 
was able to take a photo of the homeowner's camera screen. It is of limited 
usefulness but the best available at the moment. Any opinions on Rose-breasted 
vs. Black-headed? 



https://www.flickr.com/photos/krankykestrel/15637454904/


Dave Wheeler
N. Syracuse, NY

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: A couple of odd Juncos from Oregon
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 23:16:10 +0000
Greetings All,

The photo gallery at the link below includes a number of photos of some odd 
Juncos that I have photographed over the last several weeks here in Oregon. The 
first five images show a most peculiar red-backed male with wingbars and gray 
flanks. My initial impression was that it might be a Cassiar type, but the 
color of the back and wingbars don't readily fit that. The bird was 
photographed in Netarts, Tillamook County, Oregon two days ago. There was a 
second similar bird (lacked wingbars and the back was not as reddish) in the 
same yard (photos #6 and #7 in the gallery). Then on Christmas Day 2014 I 
photographed a presumed female/immature bird near Forest Grove, Washington 
County, Oregon. It shows a mix of gray and brown on the upper and mid flanks 
and then uniform darker gray on the lower flanks and vent. On the surface, it 
could easily be passed off as an Oregon Junco, but the gray on the flanks 
suggests otherwise. There are two photos of this bird (#8 and #9 in the 
gallery). Finally, I have included two reference photos. One of a presumed 
female or immature Slate-colored Junco that was also near Forest Grove, Oregon 
on 25 December 2014 and another that is a presumed Cassiar Junco that I 
photographed on Sauvie Island (near Portland) back in March 2011. 


http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/925-interesting-dark-eyed-juncos 

Thoughts on these individuals, in particular the two Netarts, Oregon birds 
(photos #1-7) and the female/immature bird near Forest Grove, Oregon (photos 
#8-9), would be most welcomed. I've never seen anything quite like the first 
Netarts bird and so far, all that have looked at the photos of it have 
scratched their heads in confusion. 


Thanks,

Dave Irons
Portland, OR 


 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: AZ Sapsucker
From: Matthew G Hunter <matthewghunter AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 08:49:44 -0800
Location of bird on Dec 29, 2014, for anyone in the area: Madera Canyon,
along stream trail, east side of creek, between Santa Rita Lodge and White
House Picnic Area, probably a quarter mile down from Santa Rita Lodge, just
over 100 meters down from the road jct to Bog Springs Campground. Looking
at Google Earth the coordinates would be 31.728465, -110.880820.

I should insert a couple comments I received prior to posting to IDF, and
which prompted me to do so. The first is a short conversation with Steve
Mlodinow (shared with permission), which I have slightly edited to the
format below:

MLODINOW: So, from the photos, this bird look absolutely like a juv YBSA.
Nothing to point to RNSA... except that bicolored throat. I've now seen a
couple of photos of birds that look like perfectly good juv YBSA during
midwinter with such a throat pattern and must admit to not knowing if juv
YBSA might show more red (or less, depending on sex) in juv plumage than in
adult..... However, your description of the back sounds naught like that of
a juv YBSA, which is usually rather buffy and messy, nothing like neat
rows. So, probably a YBSA x RNSA. Not a RNSA for sure

HUNTER: Would you say it is ...  halfway through molting out of juvenile
plumage, with the fairly clear red and white on the head (though still
plenty of flecking toward the back)?

MLODINOW: Some YBSA have an adult looking face pattern even though the
feathers are juv. Note that there is flecking nearly throughout the face
pattern. I think this bird is entirely, or nearly so, in juv plumage.....//
...we did look through hundreds of specimens of juvs, and no RNSA was in
this molt state (they've completed preformative molt by now, excepting
chest band) at this time and we found ZERO RNSA (ad or juv) lacking red on
nape.

That was the end of that conversation; Steve was pretty busy at the moment
and didn't have time to continue.

A couple other comments I received, including these from a senior Wings
leader from SE AZ (anonymous since I didn't ask permission) consider the
bird is a first-winter female RNSA:

"The slightly brownish areas don't look like juvenile plumage – they are
restricted to the areas that a usually whitish in adult males, while brown
juv feathers would be throughout the whole plumage. My guess is that this
is a first winter female. Older females also have less white in the chin.
But who can say what a YBSA X RNSA looks like? I've seen birds like this
before, so it's probably not that rare of a plumage."

"As I mentioned ..., while the white areas have a dirty look, I didn't
think they look like the brown of juvenile plumage, which, when seen in
winter YBSA is all over, not just in the "white" areas. Does Steve think
that first winter females are really as brightly colored as all subsequent
plumages?"

So, ... all these comments---those presented on IDF so far, and these
previous perspectives I have just presented---are an interesting study of
inductive vs. deductive reasoning, in that some of our most basic premises
about the appearance of juvenile versus basic feathers/plumages on these
sapsuckers might be more variable than what some of us assumed. ... And
sometimes we start from an assumption of species to decide on the plumage,
and sometimes we start with an assumption of plumage to decide on the
species.

Let's see if I can summarize some things so far (please help me out here,
correct, add, clarify):

WHAT PLUMAGE DOES THIS BIRD WEAR?: Mlodinow was thinking it is in mostly
juv plumage, because of the dullish plumage, flecking, lack of bib. Pyle
was thinking this bird is possibly an adult because no molt limits are
visible (all greater and other coverts look blackish vs brownish). I also
could not see any molt limits (older feathers), but don't consider myself
very good at seeing them in not-so-crisp photos. In Howell's "Molt" book,
p180, 1st par of Picidae, it says "The sexes and ages of woodpeckers vary
somewhat in most species, but there are no seasonal changes in appearance."
If in fact the bird I photographed is an adult in fresh basic, it seems to
me this constitutes a significant change in appearance! Which leads me
to....

HOW COMMON IS THIS PLUMAGE? SHOULD ANOTHER PLUMAGE/STATE BE ILLUSTRATED IN
FIELD GUIDES?: Whatever the plumage/parentage of the bird I photographed, I
get the feeling from talking with a few folks that this "dirty" look
(particularly where the head/face pattern is colored but flecked, bib
obscured or absent) in some winter sapsuckers is not that uncommon. And
when I do a google search for red-naped or yellow-bellied sapsuckers, I see
a fair number of birds not too far off from my photo; again, with a
combination of a more black and white head pattern (but dull and with
flecking), substantial red on the crown, and duller breast and belly with
little or no bib (e.g., not the brown juv or more crisp black/white/red
adults illustrated in most field guides).

WHERE/WHEN DOES THIS OR SIMILAR PLUMAGES OCCUR? Based on what Peter
mentioned, I wonder if among first-year sapsuckers wintering in more
northern latitudes juv RNs molt quickly and get it over with while juv YBs
hold on tight to their juv plumage, ... and as we move south, the molt
timings of individuals wintering there converge, to both having some molt
prior to migration and some molt continuing through winter?  I wonder if
this would produce more "distinct" and distinguishable winter plumages in
the north and more "mixed," "dullish/dirty" winter plumages to the south?
Or, if this is an adult, are there just some winter adult saps that are
really dull buffy, fringed buffy, and distributed randomly across their
range?

Interested in your thoughts.

Matt Hunter
Melrose, OR

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: AZ Sapsucker
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 05:41:09 +0000
This bird shows no black breast shield or even much suggestion that those black 
feathers might be hidden by buffy fringes. Have I missed something? I would 
think that an "adult" or post-juvenile (formative or basic) female Red-naped 
Sapsucker would show a black breast shield. No field guide that I own suggests 
that female Red-napeds can lack this and I can't find any photos online that 
show an otherwise adult-like female showing no black on the breast. This bird 
does appear to have what might be considered a ghosted outline of the breast 
shield, but I don't see any black feathers within this ghosted outline. 


Dave Irons


> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 22:46:40 +0000
> From: kgarrett AT NHM.ORG
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] AZ Sapsucker
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> A couple of observations from our collection to augment some of Peter's 
points: 

> 
> "If it is an adult the species still seems difficult, but I'd think first 
about a female Red-naped that lacks red in the nape for some reason. If not 
this, maybe a hybrid RNxYBSA." 

> We have one female Red-naped with so little red on the nape that it would 
almost certainly be missed in the field or in photos (it is otherwise typical 
and at an expected date and locality -- spring in eastern California) 

> 
> "I've seen or captured at least a couple of molting first-fall male 
sapsuckers with scattered red feathers throughout the throat, rather than in 
any topographical pattern, and this equates with how most birds molt throat 
feathers" 

> This is clearly the norm for Yellow-bellied males in their first fall -- 
scattered red feathers throughout the throat on all of our molting young males, 
never being clearly concentrated on the lower throat in contrast to a white 
chin. Female Red-naped Sapsuckers in our collection all show pure white chins, 
and pure red lower throats; the upper throat (below the chin) is individually 
variable in the amount of red. Molting female Red-napeds in their first fall 
will also have scattered red feathers, but the chin and uppermost throat are 
always white (unlike the more uniformly scattered pattern of young male 
Yellow-bellieds). Molting young male Red-napeds will have a scattered pattern 
of red like Yellow-bellied, but the molt proceeds quickly so we don't see many 
birds in that state. 

> 
> Kimball
> 
> Kimball L. Garrett
> Ornithology Collections Manager
> Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
> 900 Exposition Blvd.
> Los Angeles, CA 90007 USA
> (213) 763-3368
> kgarrett AT nhm.org
> http://www.nhm.org/site/research-collections/ornithology
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: AZ Sapsucker
From: Kimball Garrett <kgarrett AT NHM.ORG>
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 22:46:40 +0000
A couple of observations from our collection to augment some of Peter's points:

"If it is an adult the species still seems difficult, but I'd think first about 
a female Red-naped that lacks red in the nape for some reason. If not this, 
maybe a hybrid RNxYBSA." 

 We have one female Red-naped with so little red on the nape that it would 
almost certainly be missed in the field or in photos (it is otherwise typical 
and at an expected date and locality -- spring in eastern California) 


"I've seen or captured at least a couple of molting first-fall male sapsuckers 
with scattered red feathers throughout the throat, rather than in any 
topographical pattern, and this equates with how most birds molt throat 
feathers" 

 This is clearly the norm for Yellow-bellied males in their first fall -- 
scattered red feathers throughout the throat on all of our molting young males, 
never being clearly concentrated on the lower throat in contrast to a white 
chin. Female Red-naped Sapsuckers in our collection all show pure white chins, 
and pure red lower throats; the upper throat (below the chin) is individually 
variable in the amount of red. Molting female Red-napeds in their first fall 
will also have scattered red feathers, but the chin and uppermost throat are 
always white (unlike the more uniformly scattered pattern of young male 
Yellow-bellieds). Molting young male Red-napeds will have a scattered pattern 
of red like Yellow-bellied, but the molt proceeds quickly so we don't see many 
birds in that state. 


Kimball

Kimball L. Garrett
Ornithology Collections Manager
Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
900 Exposition Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90007 USA
(213) 763-3368
kgarrett AT nhm.org
http://www.nhm.org/site/research-collections/ornithology

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: AZ Sapsucker
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 12:07:10 -0800
I think the AZ sapsucker is most likely an adult. I don't see any 
juvenile feathers on it, just fringed feathers typical of fresh basic 
plumage (this fringing will wear off by spring to create a less 
sullied look). Also the outermost greater coverts, distal to the 
white bar, look black and full like basic feathers to me, as does the 
white bar. First-year sapsuckers retain juvenile outer greater 
coverts which are brown and worn compared to some/most medians and 
lessers, and usually have a more-worn/slightly dirty white bar. 
First-winters also have molt limits among juvenile and formative 
feathers median/inner greater coverts, which I don't see on this 
bird, although the angles in the images are not the best for confirming this.

If it is an adult the species still seems difficult, but I'd think 
first about a female Red-naped that lacks red in the nape for some 
reason. If not this, maybe a hybrid RNxYBSA.

How long the preformative molt progresses over winter has more to do 
with wintering latitude than taxon. Most sapsuckers wintering in the 
U.S. (including all Red-breasteds) complete the molt by November 
sometime and don't change plumage thereafter. Those Red-napeds and 
Yellow-bellieds that migrate to Mexico or Central America will 
continue molting over winter. Of first-year birds wintering in the 
U.S., only Yellow-bellied seems to retain juvenile feathering, and 
typically it is quite extensive.  I'm unaware of a first-year 
Yellow-bellied that has not retained at least a few juvenile feathers 
through the second prebasic molt, but I suspect some might replace 
all body feathers.

I've seen or captured at least a couple of molting first-fall male 
sapsuckers with scattered red feathers throughout the throat, rather 
than in any topographical pattern, and this equates with how most 
birds molt throat feathers.

Cheers, Peter


At 07:49 AM 1/9/2015, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>All:
>
>FWIW, we have an apparent "dirty-plumaged" "adult" Yellow-bellied 
>Sapsucker down in Santa Barbara County right now. I was searching 
>for a previously seen juvenile Yellow-bellied Sapsucker in the area 
>when I found this bird. At first I thought it was the juvenile bird 
>molting into formative. However, in a visit a month later (late Nov, 
>I think), I found the original juvenile, which hadn't really 
>progressed at all in molt, and this bird, which looked exactly the 
>same as it did a few weeks earlier. I concluded it was an "adult" 
>with a rather dirty head pattern. Wes Fritz has recently 
>photographed the bird so I will see if I can get some pictures up 
>for disucussion.
>
>In subsequent discussions with Peter Pyle on other species, Peter 
>pointed out that he has done some studies on Common Murres that 
>indicate that formative plumage can vary significantly, likely 
>depending on when the molt is done and the attendant hormones during 
>that period. One possible explanation for the Santa Barbara bird 
>(and perhaps for Matt's) is that it is in formative plumage that 
>retains aspects of juvenile appearance.
>
>Nick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
>[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons
>Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2015 11:51 PM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] AZ Sapsucker
>
>Matt,
>
>I agree that this bird is a bit confounding. Aside from the absence 
>of apparent red on the nape, much of the plumage pattern of this 
>bird seems to best fit an adult-like female Red-naped Sapsucker. 
>According to Mlodinow et al., (2006 article in Birding), a search of 
>various collections produced no Red-naped Sapsucker specimens taken 
>after October that did not show at least a few red feathers on the 
>nape. From what I can see in these photos, this bird appears to have 
>none, which on the surface would suggest that it's a Yellow-bellied Sapsucker.
>
>The other question that this bird presents relates to the overall 
>plumage. In many respects this bird looks like a hatch-year, with 
>quite a bit of retained juvenile feathering, again pointing to 
>Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. Note the buffy look to the white facial 
>stripes, the entirely buffy and barred underparts, the lack of dark 
>breast shield or even any emerging black feathers. Retained juvenile 
>feathers in late December is atypical for S. nuchalis and S. ruber, 
>while S. varius normally retains juvenile plumage through most of 
>its first winter.
>
>At first glance, this bird struck me as a Yellow-bellied because it 
>appears to have juvenile feathering in December. But closer 
>inspection revealed characteristics that are more suggestive of a 
>molting hatch-year female Red-naped. These characteristics include a 
>bi-colored throat (suggests female Red-naped) and pale barring on 
>the back that seems too constrained for a Yellow-bellied Sapsucker 
>and about right for a Red-naped.
>
>Like Matt, I also live in western Oregon, so my experiences with 
>winter RNSA and YBSA are equally few. One question that I have for 
>folks who live amid transitioning (juvenile to basic) Yellow-bellied 
>Sapsuckers: Is there a pattern to the way the red throat fills in on 
>young males. It could be that the feather replacement on the throat 
>starts at the bottom and moves upward to the base of the bill. If 
>that is the case, then I could see this bird being a young male 
>Yellow-bellied that is transitioning from juvenile to first basic plumage.
>
>Ultimately, the absence of any apparent red feathering on the nape 
>and the retention of juvenile feathering in December lead me to 
>believe that this is a Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. It might be 
>worthwhile to publicize the exact location of this bird and see of 
>others visiting this popular birding area can relocate it. By now it 
>may have further molted into a less confusing plumage.
>
>Dave Irons
>Portland, OR
>
> > Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 19:07:29 -0800
> > From: matthewghunter AT GMAIL.COM
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] AZ Sapsucker
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >
> > Greetings,
> >   I photographed a sapsucker in Madera Canyon on December 29th that,
> > with my quick look (I had family I had to run and catch up with)
> > appeared dark/dirty and clearly had no red in the nape, so I thought
> > it could be a Yellow-bellied. Needing to run I took a bunch of
> > pictures and ran off. Best photos are at:
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/sets/72157647787957594/
> >
> > Living in the PNW, in western Oregon, I have not been in the company
> > of more than a few winter RN or YB saps, and was confused by this bird.
> > Opinions sent to me on the species/parentage have differed. It seems
> > the difference of opinion stems at least in part from different
> > assumptions on what plumage the bird is in: juv or first basic, and
> > what these plumages can look like for RN and YB saps.
> >
> > I am interested in some help determining the plumage of the bird, and
> > subsequently, what this means in terms of the probable species/parentage.
> >
> > So, here are a couple questions to start out with:
> >
> > Do first winter (December, post-juv, first-basic, HY) RN sapsuckers (male?
> > female?) consistently have a plumage that is substantially dull/dirty
> > looking that it is distinguishable from AHY/adult RN saps in winter?
> >
> > Does juv plumage in YB saps, in some individuals, include adult-like
> > red, white, and black on the face but dulled with flecking, 
> versus always brown?
> >
> > Is this bird one of the above, or something else?
> >
> > Here is as far as I can get on the bird:
> >
> > Because of the dull plumage, lack of black bib, I assume this is a
> > bird in its first winter of life, whatever the species or parentage.
> >
> > Because I'm not positive what plumage this bird wears: juv, post-juv,
> > or a mix, I can't make a strong statement based on that. My first
> > impression was, hey, look, a sapsucker with some juv plumage, 
> which would suggest YB.
> >
> > It had no visible red in the nape. Mlodinow et al. 2006 in Birding
> > found that no RN saps in the winter months lacked red in the nape.
> > Strong vote for YB.
> >
> > It has a red and white throat. Not definitive, but strongly suggestive
> > of RN.
> >
> > The back/scaps are not extensively marked with buffy tones, but rather
> > with whitish/grayish bars, most of which are on the scaps, suggesting
> > RN, but as with many things, not diagnostic.
> >
> > The face pattern, other than being somewhat dull, seems intermediate
> > in terms of the relative amount of white vs black in the face.
> >
> > These characters combined suggest to me that the bird is a hybrid.
> >
> > Perhaps there are other meaningful characteristics on this bird that
> > others can see?
> >
> > I appreciate any observations/thoughts. Thanks.
> >
> > Matt Hunter
> > Melrose, OR
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
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Subject: Re: AZ Sapsucker
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 15:49:31 +0000
All:

FWIW, we have an apparent "dirty-plumaged" "adult" Yellow-bellied Sapsucker 
down in Santa Barbara County right now. I was searching for a previously seen 
juvenile Yellow-bellied Sapsucker in the area when I found this bird. At first 
I thought it was the juvenile bird molting into formative. However, in a visit 
a month later (late Nov, I think), I found the original juvenile, which hadn't 
really progressed at all in molt, and this bird, which looked exactly the same 
as it did a few weeks earlier. I concluded it was an "adult" with a rather 
dirty head pattern. Wes Fritz has recently photographed the bird so I will see 
if I can get some pictures up for disucussion. 


In subsequent discussions with Peter Pyle on other species, Peter pointed out 
that he has done some studies on Common Murres that indicate that formative 
plumage can vary significantly, likely depending on when the molt is done and 
the attendant hormones during that period. One possible explanation for the 
Santa Barbara bird (and perhaps for Matt's) is that it is in formative plumage 
that retains aspects of juvenile appearance. 


Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons 

Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2015 11:51 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] AZ Sapsucker

Matt,

I agree that this bird is a bit confounding. Aside from the absence of apparent 
red on the nape, much of the plumage pattern of this bird seems to best fit an 
adult-like female Red-naped Sapsucker. According to Mlodinow et al., (2006 
article in Birding), a search of various collections produced no Red-naped 
Sapsucker specimens taken after October that did not show at least a few red 
feathers on the nape. From what I can see in these photos, this bird appears to 
have none, which on the surface would suggest that it's a Yellow-bellied 
Sapsucker. 


The other question that this bird presents relates to the overall plumage. In 
many respects this bird looks like a hatch-year, with quite a bit of retained 
juvenile feathering, again pointing to Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. Note the buffy 
look to the white facial stripes, the entirely buffy and barred underparts, the 
lack of dark breast shield or even any emerging black feathers. Retained 
juvenile feathers in late December is atypical for S. nuchalis and S. ruber, 
while S. varius normally retains juvenile plumage through most of its first 
winter. 


At first glance, this bird struck me as a Yellow-bellied because it appears to 
have juvenile feathering in December. But closer inspection revealed 
characteristics that are more suggestive of a molting hatch-year female 
Red-naped. These characteristics include a bi-colored throat (suggests female 
Red-naped) and pale barring on the back that seems too constrained for a 
Yellow-bellied Sapsucker and about right for a Red-naped. 


Like Matt, I also live in western Oregon, so my experiences with winter RNSA 
and YBSA are equally few. One question that I have for folks who live amid 
transitioning (juvenile to basic) Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers: Is there a pattern 
to the way the red throat fills in on young males. It could be that the feather 
replacement on the throat starts at the bottom and moves upward to the base of 
the bill. If that is the case, then I could see this bird being a young male 
Yellow-bellied that is transitioning from juvenile to first basic plumage. 


Ultimately, the absence of any apparent red feathering on the nape and the 
retention of juvenile feathering in December lead me to believe that this is a 
Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. It might be worthwhile to publicize the exact 
location of this bird and see of others visiting this popular birding area can 
relocate it. By now it may have further molted into a less confusing plumage. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR  

> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 19:07:29 -0800
> From: matthewghunter AT GMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] AZ Sapsucker
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Greetings,
>   I photographed a sapsucker in Madera Canyon on December 29th that, 
> with my quick look (I had family I had to run and catch up with) 
> appeared dark/dirty and clearly had no red in the nape, so I thought 
> it could be a Yellow-bellied. Needing to run I took a bunch of 
> pictures and ran off. Best photos are at:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/sets/72157647787957594/
> 
> Living in the PNW, in western Oregon, I have not been in the company 
> of more than a few winter RN or YB saps, and was confused by this bird.
> Opinions sent to me on the species/parentage have differed. It seems 
> the difference of opinion stems at least in part from different 
> assumptions on what plumage the bird is in: juv or first basic, and 
> what these plumages can look like for RN and YB saps.
> 
> I am interested in some help determining the plumage of the bird, and 
> subsequently, what this means in terms of the probable species/parentage.
> 
> So, here are a couple questions to start out with:
> 
> Do first winter (December, post-juv, first-basic, HY) RN sapsuckers (male?
> female?) consistently have a plumage that is substantially dull/dirty 
> looking that it is distinguishable from AHY/adult RN saps in winter?
> 
> Does juv plumage in YB saps, in some individuals, include adult-like 
> red, white, and black on the face but dulled with flecking, versus always 
brown? 

> 
> Is this bird one of the above, or something else?
> 
> Here is as far as I can get on the bird:
> 
> Because of the dull plumage, lack of black bib, I assume this is a 
> bird in its first winter of life, whatever the species or parentage.
> 
> Because I'm not positive what plumage this bird wears: juv, post-juv, 
> or a mix, I can't make a strong statement based on that. My first 
> impression was, hey, look, a sapsucker with some juv plumage, which would 
suggest YB. 

> 
> It had no visible red in the nape. Mlodinow et al. 2006 in Birding 
> found that no RN saps in the winter months lacked red in the nape. 
> Strong vote for YB.
> 
> It has a red and white throat. Not definitive, but strongly suggestive 
> of RN.
> 
> The back/scaps are not extensively marked with buffy tones, but rather 
> with whitish/grayish bars, most of which are on the scaps, suggesting 
> RN, but as with many things, not diagnostic.
> 
> The face pattern, other than being somewhat dull, seems intermediate 
> in terms of the relative amount of white vs black in the face.
> 
> These characters combined suggest to me that the bird is a hybrid.
> 
> Perhaps there are other meaningful characteristics on this bird that 
> others can see?
> 
> I appreciate any observations/thoughts. Thanks.
> 
> Matt Hunter
> Melrose, OR
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: AZ Sapsucker
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 07:51:19 +0000
Matt,

I agree that this bird is a bit confounding. Aside from the absence of apparent 
red on the nape, much of the plumage pattern of this bird seems to best fit an 
adult-like female Red-naped Sapsucker. According to Mlodinow et al., (2006 
article in Birding), a search of various collections produced no Red-naped 
Sapsucker specimens taken after October that did not show at least a few red 
feathers on the nape. From what I can see in these photos, this bird appears to 
have none, which on the surface would suggest that it's a Yellow-bellied 
Sapsucker. 


The other question that this bird presents relates to the overall plumage. In 
many respects this bird looks like a hatch-year, with quite a bit of retained 
juvenile feathering, again pointing to Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. Note the buffy 
look to the white facial stripes, the entirely buffy and barred underparts, the 
lack of dark breast shield or even any emerging black feathers. Retained 
juvenile feathers in late December is atypical for S. nuchalis and S. ruber, 
while S. varius normally retains juvenile plumage through most of its first 
winter. 


At first glance, this bird struck me as a Yellow-bellied because it appears to 
have juvenile feathering in December. But closer inspection revealed 
characteristics that are more suggestive of a molting hatch-year female 
Red-naped. These characteristics include a bi-colored throat (suggests female 
Red-naped) and pale barring on the back that seems too constrained for a 
Yellow-bellied Sapsucker and about right for a Red-naped. 


Like Matt, I also live in western Oregon, so my experiences with winter RNSA 
and YBSA are equally few. One question that I have for folks who live amid 
transitioning (juvenile to basic) Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers: Is there a pattern 
to the way the red throat fills in on young males. It could be that the feather 
replacement on the throat starts at the bottom and moves upward to the base of 
the bill. If that is the case, then I could see this bird being a young male 
Yellow-bellied that is transitioning from juvenile to first basic plumage. 


Ultimately, the absence of any apparent red feathering on the nape and the 
retention of juvenile feathering in December lead me to believe that this is a 
Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. It might be worthwhile to publicize the exact 
location of this bird and see of others visiting this popular birding area can 
relocate it. By now it may have further molted into a less confusing plumage. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR  

> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 19:07:29 -0800
> From: matthewghunter AT GMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] AZ Sapsucker
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Greetings,
>   I photographed a sapsucker in Madera Canyon on December 29th that, with
> my quick look (I had family I had to run and catch up with) appeared
> dark/dirty and clearly had no red in the nape, so I thought it could be a
> Yellow-bellied. Needing to run I took a bunch of pictures and ran off. Best
> photos are at:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/sets/72157647787957594/
> 
> Living in the PNW, in western Oregon, I have not been in the company of
> more than a few winter RN or YB saps, and was confused by this bird.
> Opinions sent to me on the species/parentage have differed. It seems the
> difference of opinion stems at least in part from different assumptions on
> what plumage the bird is in: juv or first basic, and what these plumages
> can look like for RN and YB saps.
> 
> I am interested in some help determining the plumage of the bird, and
> subsequently, what this means in terms of the probable species/parentage.
> 
> So, here are a couple questions to start out with:
> 
> Do first winter (December, post-juv, first-basic, HY) RN sapsuckers (male?
> female?) consistently have a plumage that is substantially dull/dirty
> looking that it is distinguishable from AHY/adult RN saps in winter?
> 
> Does juv plumage in YB saps, in some individuals, include adult-like red,
> white, and black on the face but dulled with flecking, versus always brown?
> 
> Is this bird one of the above, or something else?
> 
> Here is as far as I can get on the bird:
> 
> Because of the dull plumage, lack of black bib, I assume this is a bird in
> its first winter of life, whatever the species or parentage.
> 
> Because I'm not positive what plumage this bird wears: juv, post-juv, or a
> mix, I can't make a strong statement based on that. My first impression
> was, hey, look, a sapsucker with some juv plumage, which would suggest YB.
> 
> It had no visible red in the nape. Mlodinow et al. 2006 in Birding found
> that no RN saps in the winter months lacked red in the nape. Strong vote
> for YB.
> 
> It has a red and white throat. Not definitive, but strongly suggestive of
> RN.
> 
> The back/scaps are not extensively marked with buffy tones, but rather with
> whitish/grayish bars, most of which are on the scaps, suggesting RN, but as
> with many things, not diagnostic.
> 
> The face pattern, other than being somewhat dull, seems intermediate in
> terms of the relative amount of white vs black in the face.
> 
> These characters combined suggest to me that the bird is a hybrid.
> 
> Perhaps there are other meaningful characteristics on this bird that others
> can see?
> 
> I appreciate any observations/thoughts. Thanks.
> 
> Matt Hunter
> Melrose, OR
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: AZ Sapsucker
From: Matthew G Hunter <matthewghunter AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 19:07:29 -0800
Greetings,
  I photographed a sapsucker in Madera Canyon on December 29th that, with
my quick look (I had family I had to run and catch up with) appeared
dark/dirty and clearly had no red in the nape, so I thought it could be a
Yellow-bellied. Needing to run I took a bunch of pictures and ran off. Best
photos are at:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/sets/72157647787957594/

Living in the PNW, in western Oregon, I have not been in the company of
more than a few winter RN or YB saps, and was confused by this bird.
Opinions sent to me on the species/parentage have differed. It seems the
difference of opinion stems at least in part from different assumptions on
what plumage the bird is in: juv or first basic, and what these plumages
can look like for RN and YB saps.

I am interested in some help determining the plumage of the bird, and
subsequently, what this means in terms of the probable species/parentage.

So, here are a couple questions to start out with:

Do first winter (December, post-juv, first-basic, HY) RN sapsuckers (male?
female?) consistently have a plumage that is substantially dull/dirty
looking that it is distinguishable from AHY/adult RN saps in winter?

Does juv plumage in YB saps, in some individuals, include adult-like red,
white, and black on the face but dulled with flecking, versus always brown?

Is this bird one of the above, or something else?

Here is as far as I can get on the bird:

Because of the dull plumage, lack of black bib, I assume this is a bird in
its first winter of life, whatever the species or parentage.

Because I'm not positive what plumage this bird wears: juv, post-juv, or a
mix, I can't make a strong statement based on that. My first impression
was, hey, look, a sapsucker with some juv plumage, which would suggest YB.

It had no visible red in the nape. Mlodinow et al. 2006 in Birding found
that no RN saps in the winter months lacked red in the nape. Strong vote
for YB.

It has a red and white throat. Not definitive, but strongly suggestive of
RN.

The back/scaps are not extensively marked with buffy tones, but rather with
whitish/grayish bars, most of which are on the scaps, suggesting RN, but as
with many things, not diagnostic.

The face pattern, other than being somewhat dull, seems intermediate in
terms of the relative amount of white vs black in the face.

These characters combined suggest to me that the bird is a hybrid.

Perhaps there are other meaningful characteristics on this bird that others
can see?

I appreciate any observations/thoughts. Thanks.

Matt Hunter
Melrose, OR

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Unusual small, black legged peep at Sal delRey, Hidalgo County, TX, 1/3/15
From: Dan Jones <antshrike1 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 15:51:24 -0500
This morning I observed an unusual small Calidris sandpiper with a mixed flock 
of peeps on the south shore of Sal del Rey near the overlook reached from 
Brushline Road. It was the size of the nearby Least Sandpipers but was gray in 
color with blacklegs and a short, thin bill. I am thinking it could be a Little 
Stint or a Red-necked Stint. Photos are below. Sal del Rey is part of the Lower 
Rio Grande NWR and is located in Hidalgo County, Texas. 




https://www.flickr.com/photos/58723772 AT N07/16161534106/in/set-72157650086869922/ 



Any comments are welcome.


Dan Jones, Weslaco

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull (subspecies barrovianus) Winter Range?
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 21:58:57 +0000
I think it's fairly obvious that no subspecies of Glaucous Gull primarily 
winters along the Pacific Coast of N. America. The numbers are much too small. 
I would doubt that there are more than a few hundred Glaucous Gulls between 
Kodiak and Baja, and that may be an exaggeration. As suggested by satellite 
data, Glaucous Gulls are commoner around Hokkaido in winter, where one can see 
a few dozen in a day or more. 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Jean Iron 

Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 1:02 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Glaucous Gull (subspecies barrovianus) Winter Range?

We posted this today to the North American Gulls Facebook Group. We're posting 
it here too because many birders aren't on Facebook. See below. 


It is assumed that the smallest subspecies of the Glaucous Gull (L. h.
barrovianus), which breeds in Alaska and Yukon, winters along the Pacific Coast 
of North America. Weiser and Gilchrist (2012) in the BNA state that it "winters 
from s. Alaska south to the Pacific Northwest, with some reaching south to n. 
Baja California and n. Sonora." Conversely, Declan Troy (pers. 

comm.) has deployed satellite transmitters on Glaucous Gulls in Alaska.
Approximately 100 barrovianus from the breeding range have been marked at many 
spots on the Arctic Coastal Plain from Wainwright east to Prudhoe Bay. 

The most noteworthy finding is that all of Declan's barrovianus winter in Asia, 
not in North America. Most wintered "around Kamchatka (Bering Sea and Sea of 
Okhotsk), the Kuril Islands and Japan. If there is ice (and there usually is) 
many stay out at the ice edge rather than near land." 


Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron
Toronto ON
Canada

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Glaucous Gull (subspecies barrovianus) Winter Range?
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 16:02:15 -0500
We posted this today to the North American Gulls Facebook Group. We're
posting it here too because many birders aren't on Facebook. See below.

It is assumed that the smallest subspecies of the Glaucous Gull (L. h.
barrovianus), which breeds in Alaska and Yukon, winters along the Pacific
Coast of North America. Weiser and Gilchrist (2012) in the BNA state that it
"winters from s. Alaska south to the Pacific Northwest, with some reaching
south to n. Baja California and n. Sonora." Conversely, Declan Troy (pers.
comm.) has deployed satellite transmitters on Glaucous Gulls in Alaska.
Approximately 100 barrovianus from the breeding range have been marked at
many spots on the Arctic Coastal Plain from Wainwright east to Prudhoe Bay.
The most noteworthy finding is that all of Declan's barrovianus winter in
Asia, not in North America. Most wintered "around Kamchatka (Bering Sea and
Sea of Okhotsk), the Kuril Islands and Japan. If there is ice (and there
usually is) many stay out at the ice edge rather than near land."

Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron
Toronto ON
Canada

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: RFI: Strange Bird Call
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 09:02:03 -0600
Check out Western Tanager calls... That's the closest thing I can think of.

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE

On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 3:35 AM, Michael Price 
wrote:

> A stocky, slightly long-tailed bird about the size of an Evening Grosbeak;
> call: a *loud*, clear and persistently repeated '*pi-errr-dilik*', almost
> electronic in character.
>
> From high in a bare deciduous tree in an urban planting in East Vancouver
> BC. Seen for about thirty seconds while calling. I was making a Christmas
> social call so no bins, no plumage details, unfortunately.
>
> Any ID help appreciated.
>
> Michael Price
> Vancouver BC Canada
> loblollyboy AT gmail.com
>
> Every answer deepens the mystery.
>                          -- E.O. Wilson
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 12:09 PM, christian artuso 
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Mike,
> >
> > Although I am very interested in learning more about the evidence
> > regarding IBWO, I am quite upset with the false dichotomy being presented
> > here, especially the statement “This post is intended for bird watchers
> who
> > do care about conservation”. The characterisation that those who have
> > scrutinised your sightings/evidence as being somehow against conservation
> > is offensive. Many of these people are passionate conservationists. As a
> > conservationist,  I welcome the scientific process, peer review and other
> > forms of review and
> > discussion, which benefit conservation (it isn't a hindrance as you
> > imply). Your characterisation of birders is also over-generalised. There
> > are birders who care deeply about conservation and some of us devote our
> > careers and much of our free time to that end.  In this case, many people
> > are working hard to preserve and steward the habitats in question for
> their
> > intrinsic value. If you would like to post about conservation please do,
> > that is always welcome! Please also recognize the efforts that are
> ongoing
> > and the many struggles that conservationists face in their difficult
> task.
> > If you wish to describe or defend your evidence for the Ivory-billed
> > Woodpecker’s existence, then that is also welcome and interesting, but
> > please do not pretend that that topic is about conservation – your
> > discussion is rather about weighing the strength of the evidence, which
> is
> > also valid.
> >
> > Bird watchers absolutely can make a big difference in conservation
> issues!
> >
> > Christian Artuso (Manitoba, Canada)
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 17:28:03 +0000
> > > From: mike AT FISHCROW.COM
> > > Subject: [BIRDWG01] “Nobody else had the balls to do it.”
> > > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > >
> > > The subject of this post is a quote by John Fitzpatrick that appeared
> in
> > the August 2007 issue of Science. He was referring to the fact that other
> > ornithologists weren’t willing to take the career risk of getting
> involved
> > in a topic as controversial and contentious as the Ivory-billed
> Woodpecker.
> > Several years ago, it became apparent (during an uprising against the
> > inclusion of conservation issues in a birding publication) that many bird
> > watchers don’t care about conservation issues. This post is intended for
> > bird watchers who do care about conservation -- especially any who might
> > have the balls to provide real leadership on this issue.
> > >
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLarETXSiUV1MFkKM6dkKTxnkM6tDAM9HZ
> > > I wrapped up an eight-year search effort last year, but I have posted a
> > series of lectures at the above URL on the following issues:
> > > * The Ivory-billed Woodpecker persists. I had encounters in Louisiana
> > and Florida with at least four of them. Three of my ten sightings are
> > supported by video evidence that is stronger than any other evidence that
> > has been obtained.
> > > * It is essential to establish a sustained conservation effort for this
> > species without further delay. A previously missed opportunity set back
> the
> > conservation of this species for decades and had a serious adverse effect
> > on the search efforts of the past decade, which wasted millions of
> dollars
> > by focusing almost entirely upon the goal of obtaining a clear photo.
> Think
> > of where certain species would be right now if conservation efforts for
> the
> > Whooping Crane, California Condor, and Kirtland’s Warbler had been
> delayed
> > for decades or if the harmful effects of DDT had never been recognized.
> > > * An important fact that came out of the recent multi-year search
> > efforts in Arkansas, Florida, and Louisiana is that it is unlikely that
> > anyone will obtain a clear photo in time to make a difference in the
> > conservation of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker. It should be clear from the
> > pattern of multiple rediscoveries that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is an
> > unusually elusive species. John Dennis knew this from direct experience,
> > and he essentially foretold the outcomes of the search efforts of the
> past
> > decade with the following comment in 1985: “It is almost impossible to
> > photograph an ivorybill in a southern swamp unless a nest is discovered.”
> > > * Three videos that were obtained during encounters with birds that
> were
> > identified in the field as Ivory-billed Woodpeckers show numerous
> behaviors
> > and field marks that can only be explained in terms of an Ivory-billed
> > Woodpecker. Those videos have received the support of several
> > ornithologists (some openly, and some in private), and none of this
> > evidence has been refuted. There are concise discussions of all three
> > videos at the above URL. It is difficult to present such evidence, and
> some
> > of the most compelling events in the 2007 video weren’t discovered until
> > recently. The discussions at the above URL include all of the events in a
> > format that is improved and easier to follow, but the raw data are also
> > available for inspection.
> > > There is a need for bird watchers to recognize that the situation of
> the
> > Ivory-billed Woodpecker calls for unconventional approaches for
> identifying
> > birds in video footage in which field marks alone may not be sufficiently
> > resolved to make positive identifications. Adapting to the circumstances
> > and exploring a different approach would seem to be appropriate for a
> group
> > that goes by the name “ID Frontiers.” It’s surprising that certain
> members
> > of this forum seem to be cocksure that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is
> > extinct. This would be surprising even if we only had the weakest of the
> > three videos mentioned above. According to Julie Zickefoose, several
> > characteristics of the bird in the 2006 video are consistent with an
> > Ivory-billed Woodpecker but don’t seem to be consistent with a Pileated
> > Woodpecker. There is no question that it’s a large woodpecker on the
> basis
> > of the size of the fork in which it appears. The fork was collected after
> > the tree blew down in 2008 and is available for inspection. It follows
> from
> > the assessment of an expert on woodpecker flight mechanics that the bird
> in
> > a video that was obtained along the same bayou in 2008 can only be
> > explained in terms of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker. From the context of
> that
> > video, it’s clear that I had an excellent vantage point for observing the
> > definitive dorsal field marks (the bird was nearly directly below at
> close
> > range). It’s amazing that anyone could have the arrogance to assert that
> > such a sighting and numerous other sightings by experienced bird watchers
> > (of a large bird with distinctive and prominent field marks and flight
> > characteristics that are remarkable according to Audubon and others) were
> > simply mistakes. The 2007 video shows several events involving highly
> > unusual flights and other behaviors that are consistent with Ivory-billed
> > Woodpecker but don’t seem to be consistent with any other candidate
> > species. That video was obtained during an extended encounter with two
> > Ivory-billed Woodpeckers at a site where an ornithologist had a sighting.
> > Nobody has managed to refute any of this evidence.
> > > We have come to a very critical juncture in the history of the
> > Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Funding has dried up. The trails have gone cold.
> > There are apparently no current hot spots. There are no search efforts
> > comparable to those of the past decade either in progress or planned.
> It’s
> > unlikely that any ornithologist would be willing to take the career risk
> of
> > investing significant resources into another search effort. It’s unlikely
> > that anyone will obtain a clear photo in time to make a difference in the
> > conservation of this species, which is probably going to fall through the
> > cracks once again unless leadership emerges from somewhere. Bird watchers
> > could make a difference in this conservation issue.
> > > Mike CollinsAlexandria, Virginiamike AT fishcrow.comhttp://fishcrow.com
> > >
> > > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: RFI: Strange Bird Call
From: Michael Price <loblollyboy AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 03:36:08 -0800
Thank you for your responses. I'm familiar with Pine Grosbeak, and it was
not a Pine Grosbeak. For one thing, it was *very* loud and *very* clear: I
heard it a block away. Secondly, the notes were not burry and run-together
as with Pine Grosbeak, but extremely clearly enunciated, so clearly I
wondered if I weren't hearing some electronic Christmas toy. Please let me
emphasise how loud and clearly-enunciated the phrasing was: a distinct,
loud, clear: '*pi-errr-dilik'*, I am unfamiliar with any North American
species which utters this call note.

best wishes



Michael Price
Vancouver BC Canada
loblollyboy AT gmail.com

Every answer deepens the mystery.
                         -- E.O. Wilson



On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Dick Cannings  wrote:

> Hi Michael:
> My guess would be Pine Grosbeak.
> Dick Cannings
> Penticton, BC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Price
> Sent: December-26-14 1:35 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] RFI: Strange Bird Call
>
> A stocky, slightly long-tailed bird about the size of an Evening Grosbeak;
> call: a *loud*, clear and persistently repeated '*pi-errr-dilik*', almost
> electronic in character.
>
> From high in a bare deciduous tree in an urban planting in East Vancouver
> BC. Seen for about thirty seconds while calling. I was making a Christmas
> social call so no bins, no plumage details, unfortunately.
>
> Any ID help appreciated.
>
> Michael Price
> Vancouver BC Canada
> loblollyboy AT gmail.com
>
> Every answer deepens the mystery.
>                          -- E.O. Wilson
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 12:09 PM, christian artuso 
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Mike,
> >
> > Although I am very interested in learning more about the evidence
> > regarding IBWO, I am quite upset with the false dichotomy being
> > presented here, especially the statement “This post is intended for
> > bird watchers who do care about conservation”. The characterisation
> > that those who have scrutinised your sightings/evidence as being
> > somehow against conservation is offensive. Many of these people are
> > passionate conservationists. As a conservationist,  I welcome the
> > scientific process, peer review and other forms of review and
> > discussion, which benefit conservation (it isn't a hindrance as you
> > imply). Your characterisation of birders is also over-generalised.
> > There are birders who care deeply about conservation and some of us
> > devote our careers and much of our free time to that end.  In this
> > case, many people are working hard to preserve and steward the
> > habitats in question for their intrinsic value. If you would like to
> > post about conservation please do, that is always welcome! Please also
> > recognize the efforts that are ongoing and the many struggles that
> conservationists face in their difficult task.
> > If you wish to describe or defend your evidence for the Ivory-billed
> > Woodpecker’s existence, then that is also welcome and interesting, but
> > please do not pretend that that topic is about conservation – your
> > discussion is rather about weighing the strength of the evidence,
> > which is also valid.
> >
> > Bird watchers absolutely can make a big difference in conservation
> issues!
> >
> > Christian Artuso (Manitoba, Canada)
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 17:28:03 +0000
> > > From: mike AT FISHCROW.COM
> > > Subject: [BIRDWG01] “Nobody else had the balls to do it.”
> > > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > >
> > > The subject of this post is a quote by John Fitzpatrick that
> > > appeared in
> > the August 2007 issue of Science. He was referring to the fact that
> > other ornithologists weren’t willing to take the career risk of
> > getting involved in a topic as controversial and contentious as the
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker.
> > Several years ago, it became apparent (during an uprising against the
> > inclusion of conservation issues in a birding publication) that many
> > bird watchers don’t care about conservation issues. This post is
> > intended for bird watchers who do care about conservation --
> > especially any who might have the balls to provide real leadership on
> this issue.
> > > https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLarETXSiUV1MFkKM6dkKTxnkM6tDA
> > > M9HZ I wrapped up an eight-year search effort last year, but I have
> > > posted a
> > series of lectures at the above URL on the following issues:
> > > * The Ivory-billed Woodpecker persists. I had encounters in
> > > Louisiana
> > and Florida with at least four of them. Three of my ten sightings are
> > supported by video evidence that is stronger than any other evidence
> > that has been obtained.
> > > * It is essential to establish a sustained conservation effort for
> > > this
> > species without further delay. A previously missed opportunity set
> > back the conservation of this species for decades and had a serious
> > adverse effect on the search efforts of the past decade, which wasted
> > millions of dollars by focusing almost entirely upon the goal of
> > obtaining a clear photo. Think of where certain species would be right
> > now if conservation efforts for the Whooping Crane, California Condor,
> > and Kirtland’s Warbler had been delayed for decades or if the harmful
> effects of DDT had never been recognized.
> > > * An important fact that came out of the recent multi-year search
> > efforts in Arkansas, Florida, and Louisiana is that it is unlikely
> > that anyone will obtain a clear photo in time to make a difference in
> > the conservation of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker. It should be clear
> > from the pattern of multiple rediscoveries that the Ivory-billed
> > Woodpecker is an unusually elusive species. John Dennis knew this from
> > direct experience, and he essentially foretold the outcomes of the
> > search efforts of the past decade with the following comment in 1985:
> > “It is almost impossible to photograph an ivorybill in a southern swamp
> unless a nest is discovered.”
> > > * Three videos that were obtained during encounters with birds that
> > > were
> > identified in the field as Ivory-billed Woodpeckers show numerous
> > behaviors and field marks that can only be explained in terms of an
> > Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Those videos have received the support of
> > several ornithologists (some openly, and some in private), and none of
> > this evidence has been refuted. There are concise discussions of all
> > three videos at the above URL. It is difficult to present such
> > evidence, and some of the most compelling events in the 2007 video
> > weren’t discovered until recently. The discussions at the above URL
> > include all of the events in a format that is improved and easier to
> > follow, but the raw data are also available for inspection.
> > > There is a need for bird watchers to recognize that the situation of
> > > the
> > Ivory-billed Woodpecker calls for unconventional approaches for
> > identifying birds in video footage in which field marks alone may not
> > be sufficiently resolved to make positive identifications. Adapting to
> > the circumstances and exploring a different approach would seem to be
> > appropriate for a group that goes by the name “ID Frontiers.” It’s
> > surprising that certain members of this forum seem to be cocksure that
> > the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is extinct. This would be surprising even
> > if we only had the weakest of the three videos mentioned above.
> > According to Julie Zickefoose, several characteristics of the bird in
> > the 2006 video are consistent with an Ivory-billed Woodpecker but
> > don’t seem to be consistent with a Pileated Woodpecker. There is no
> > question that it’s a large woodpecker on the basis of the size of the
> > fork in which it appears. The fork was collected after the tree blew
> > down in 2008 and is available for inspection. It follows from the
> > assessment of an expert on woodpecker flight mechanics that the bird
> > in a video that was obtained along the same bayou in 2008 can only be
> > explained in terms of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker. From the context of
> > that video, it’s clear that I had an excellent vantage point for
> > observing the definitive dorsal field marks (the bird was nearly
> > directly below at close range). It’s amazing that anyone could have
> > the arrogance to assert that such a sighting and numerous other
> > sightings by experienced bird watchers (of a large bird with
> > distinctive and prominent field marks and flight characteristics that
> > are remarkable according to Audubon and others) were simply mistakes.
> > The 2007 video shows several events involving highly unusual flights
> > and other behaviors that are consistent with Ivory-billed Woodpecker
> > but don’t seem to be consistent with any other candidate species. That
> video was obtained during an extended encounter with two Ivory-billed
> Woodpeckers at a site where an ornithologist had a sighting.
> > Nobody has managed to refute any of this evidence.
> > > We have come to a very critical juncture in the history of the
> > Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Funding has dried up. The trails have gone cold.
> > There are apparently no current hot spots. There are no search efforts
> > comparable to those of the past decade either in progress or planned.
> > It’s unlikely that any ornithologist would be willing to take the
> > career risk of investing significant resources into another search
> > effort. It’s unlikely that anyone will obtain a clear photo in time to
> > make a difference in the conservation of this species, which is
> > probably going to fall through the cracks once again unless leadership
> > emerges from somewhere. Bird watchers could make a difference in this
> conservation issue.
> > > Mike CollinsAlexandria, Virginiamike AT fishcrow.comhttp://fishcrow.com
> > >
> > > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: RFI: Strange Bird Call
From: Dick Cannings <dickcannings AT SHAW.CA>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 15:54:30 -0800
Hi Michael:
My guess would be Pine Grosbeak.
Dick Cannings
Penticton, BC

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Price 

Sent: December-26-14 1:35 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] RFI: Strange Bird Call

A stocky, slightly long-tailed bird about the size of an Evening Grosbeak;
call: a *loud*, clear and persistently repeated '*pi-errr-dilik*', almost 
electronic in character. 


From high in a bare deciduous tree in an urban planting in East Vancouver BC. 
Seen for about thirty seconds while calling. I was making a Christmas social 
call so no bins, no plumage details, unfortunately. 


Any ID help appreciated.

Michael Price
Vancouver BC Canada
loblollyboy AT gmail.com

Every answer deepens the mystery.
                         -- E.O. Wilson



On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 12:09 PM, christian artuso 
wrote:

> Dear Mike,
>
> Although I am very interested in learning more about the evidence 
> regarding IBWO, I am quite upset with the false dichotomy being 
> presented here, especially the statement “This post is intended for 
> bird watchers who do care about conservation”. The characterisation 
> that those who have scrutinised your sightings/evidence as being 
> somehow against conservation is offensive. Many of these people are 
> passionate conservationists. As a conservationist,  I welcome the 
> scientific process, peer review and other forms of review and 
> discussion, which benefit conservation (it isn't a hindrance as you 
> imply). Your characterisation of birders is also over-generalised. 
> There are birders who care deeply about conservation and some of us 
> devote our careers and much of our free time to that end.  In this 
> case, many people are working hard to preserve and steward the 
> habitats in question for their intrinsic value. If you would like to 
> post about conservation please do, that is always welcome! Please also 
> recognize the efforts that are ongoing and the many struggles that 
conservationists face in their difficult task. 

> If you wish to describe or defend your evidence for the Ivory-billed 
> Woodpecker’s existence, then that is also welcome and interesting, but 
> please do not pretend that that topic is about conservation – your 
> discussion is rather about weighing the strength of the evidence, 
> which is also valid.
>
> Bird watchers absolutely can make a big difference in conservation issues!
>
> Christian Artuso (Manitoba, Canada)
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 17:28:03 +0000
> > From: mike AT FISHCROW.COM
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] “Nobody else had the balls to do it.”
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >
> > The subject of this post is a quote by John Fitzpatrick that 
> > appeared in
> the August 2007 issue of Science. He was referring to the fact that 
> other ornithologists weren’t willing to take the career risk of 
> getting involved in a topic as controversial and contentious as the 
Ivory-billed Woodpecker. 

> Several years ago, it became apparent (during an uprising against the 
> inclusion of conservation issues in a birding publication) that many 
> bird watchers don’t care about conservation issues. This post is 
> intended for bird watchers who do care about conservation -- 
> especially any who might have the balls to provide real leadership on this 
issue. 

> > https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLarETXSiUV1MFkKM6dkKTxnkM6tDA
> > M9HZ I wrapped up an eight-year search effort last year, but I have 
> > posted a
> series of lectures at the above URL on the following issues:
> > * The Ivory-billed Woodpecker persists. I had encounters in 
> > Louisiana
> and Florida with at least four of them. Three of my ten sightings are 
> supported by video evidence that is stronger than any other evidence 
> that has been obtained.
> > * It is essential to establish a sustained conservation effort for 
> > this
> species without further delay. A previously missed opportunity set 
> back the conservation of this species for decades and had a serious 
> adverse effect on the search efforts of the past decade, which wasted 
> millions of dollars by focusing almost entirely upon the goal of 
> obtaining a clear photo. Think of where certain species would be right 
> now if conservation efforts for the Whooping Crane, California Condor, 
> and Kirtland’s Warbler had been delayed for decades or if the harmful 
effects of DDT had never been recognized. 

> > * An important fact that came out of the recent multi-year search
> efforts in Arkansas, Florida, and Louisiana is that it is unlikely 
> that anyone will obtain a clear photo in time to make a difference in 
> the conservation of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker. It should be clear 
> from the pattern of multiple rediscoveries that the Ivory-billed 
> Woodpecker is an unusually elusive species. John Dennis knew this from 
> direct experience, and he essentially foretold the outcomes of the 
> search efforts of the past decade with the following comment in 1985: 
> “It is almost impossible to photograph an ivorybill in a southern swamp 
unless a nest is discovered.” 

> > * Three videos that were obtained during encounters with birds that 
> > were
> identified in the field as Ivory-billed Woodpeckers show numerous 
> behaviors and field marks that can only be explained in terms of an 
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Those videos have received the support of 
> several ornithologists (some openly, and some in private), and none of 
> this evidence has been refuted. There are concise discussions of all 
> three videos at the above URL. It is difficult to present such 
> evidence, and some of the most compelling events in the 2007 video 
> weren’t discovered until recently. The discussions at the above URL 
> include all of the events in a format that is improved and easier to 
> follow, but the raw data are also available for inspection.
> > There is a need for bird watchers to recognize that the situation of 
> > the
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker calls for unconventional approaches for 
> identifying birds in video footage in which field marks alone may not 
> be sufficiently resolved to make positive identifications. Adapting to 
> the circumstances and exploring a different approach would seem to be 
> appropriate for a group that goes by the name “ID Frontiers.” It’s 
> surprising that certain members of this forum seem to be cocksure that 
> the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is extinct. This would be surprising even 
> if we only had the weakest of the three videos mentioned above. 
> According to Julie Zickefoose, several characteristics of the bird in 
> the 2006 video are consistent with an Ivory-billed Woodpecker but 
> don’t seem to be consistent with a Pileated Woodpecker. There is no 
> question that it’s a large woodpecker on the basis of the size of the 
> fork in which it appears. The fork was collected after the tree blew 
> down in 2008 and is available for inspection. It follows from the 
> assessment of an expert on woodpecker flight mechanics that the bird 
> in a video that was obtained along the same bayou in 2008 can only be 
> explained in terms of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker. From the context of 
> that video, it’s clear that I had an excellent vantage point for 
> observing the definitive dorsal field marks (the bird was nearly 
> directly below at close range). It’s amazing that anyone could have 
> the arrogance to assert that such a sighting and numerous other 
> sightings by experienced bird watchers (of a large bird with 
> distinctive and prominent field marks and flight characteristics that 
> are remarkable according to Audubon and others) were simply mistakes. 
> The 2007 video shows several events involving highly unusual flights 
> and other behaviors that are consistent with Ivory-billed Woodpecker 
> but don’t seem to be consistent with any other candidate species. That 
video was obtained during an extended encounter with two Ivory-billed 
Woodpeckers at a site where an ornithologist had a sighting. 

> Nobody has managed to refute any of this evidence.
> > We have come to a very critical juncture in the history of the
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Funding has dried up. The trails have gone cold.
> There are apparently no current hot spots. There are no search efforts 
> comparable to those of the past decade either in progress or planned. 
> It’s unlikely that any ornithologist would be willing to take the 
> career risk of investing significant resources into another search 
> effort. It’s unlikely that anyone will obtain a clear photo in time to 
> make a difference in the conservation of this species, which is 
> probably going to fall through the cracks once again unless leadership 
> emerges from somewhere. Bird watchers could make a difference in this 
conservation issue. 

> > Mike CollinsAlexandria, Virginiamike AT fishcrow.comhttp://fishcrow.com
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: RFI: Strange Bird Call
From: Michael Price <loblollyboy AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 01:35:08 -0800
A stocky, slightly long-tailed bird about the size of an Evening Grosbeak;
call: a *loud*, clear and persistently repeated '*pi-errr-dilik*', almost
electronic in character.

From high in a bare deciduous tree in an urban planting in East Vancouver
BC. Seen for about thirty seconds while calling. I was making a Christmas
social call so no bins, no plumage details, unfortunately.

Any ID help appreciated.

Michael Price
Vancouver BC Canada
loblollyboy AT gmail.com

Every answer deepens the mystery.
                         -- E.O. Wilson



On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 12:09 PM, christian artuso 
wrote:

> Dear Mike,
>
> Although I am very interested in learning more about the evidence
> regarding IBWO, I am quite upset with the false dichotomy being presented
> here, especially the statement “This post is intended for bird watchers who
> do care about conservation”. The characterisation that those who have
> scrutinised your sightings/evidence as being somehow against conservation
> is offensive. Many of these people are passionate conservationists. As a
> conservationist,  I welcome the scientific process, peer review and other
> forms of review and
> discussion, which benefit conservation (it isn't a hindrance as you
> imply). Your characterisation of birders is also over-generalised. There
> are birders who care deeply about conservation and some of us devote our
> careers and much of our free time to that end.  In this case, many people
> are working hard to preserve and steward the habitats in question for their
> intrinsic value. If you would like to post about conservation please do,
> that is always welcome! Please also recognize the efforts that are ongoing
> and the many struggles that conservationists face in their difficult task.
> If you wish to describe or defend your evidence for the Ivory-billed
> Woodpecker’s existence, then that is also welcome and interesting, but
> please do not pretend that that topic is about conservation – your
> discussion is rather about weighing the strength of the evidence, which is
> also valid.
>
> Bird watchers absolutely can make a big difference in conservation issues!
>
> Christian Artuso (Manitoba, Canada)
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 17:28:03 +0000
> > From: mike AT FISHCROW.COM
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] “Nobody else had the balls to do it.”
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >
> > The subject of this post is a quote by John Fitzpatrick that appeared in
> the August 2007 issue of Science. He was referring to the fact that other
> ornithologists weren’t willing to take the career risk of getting involved
> in a topic as controversial and contentious as the Ivory-billed Woodpecker.
> Several years ago, it became apparent (during an uprising against the
> inclusion of conservation issues in a birding publication) that many bird
> watchers don’t care about conservation issues. This post is intended for
> bird watchers who do care about conservation -- especially any who might
> have the balls to provide real leadership on this issue.
> > https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLarETXSiUV1MFkKM6dkKTxnkM6tDAM9HZ
> > I wrapped up an eight-year search effort last year, but I have posted a
> series of lectures at the above URL on the following issues:
> > * The Ivory-billed Woodpecker persists. I had encounters in Louisiana
> and Florida with at least four of them. Three of my ten sightings are
> supported by video evidence that is stronger than any other evidence that
> has been obtained.
> > * It is essential to establish a sustained conservation effort for this
> species without further delay. A previously missed opportunity set back the
> conservation of this species for decades and had a serious adverse effect
> on the search efforts of the past decade, which wasted millions of dollars
> by focusing almost entirely upon the goal of obtaining a clear photo. Think
> of where certain species would be right now if conservation efforts for the
> Whooping Crane, California Condor, and Kirtland’s Warbler had been delayed
> for decades or if the harmful effects of DDT had never been recognized.
> > * An important fact that came out of the recent multi-year search
> efforts in Arkansas, Florida, and Louisiana is that it is unlikely that
> anyone will obtain a clear photo in time to make a difference in the
> conservation of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker. It should be clear from the
> pattern of multiple rediscoveries that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is an
> unusually elusive species. John Dennis knew this from direct experience,
> and he essentially foretold the outcomes of the search efforts of the past
> decade with the following comment in 1985: “It is almost impossible to
> photograph an ivorybill in a southern swamp unless a nest is discovered.”
> > * Three videos that were obtained during encounters with birds that were
> identified in the field as Ivory-billed Woodpeckers show numerous behaviors
> and field marks that can only be explained in terms of an Ivory-billed
> Woodpecker. Those videos have received the support of several
> ornithologists (some openly, and some in private), and none of this
> evidence has been refuted. There are concise discussions of all three
> videos at the above URL. It is difficult to present such evidence, and some
> of the most compelling events in the 2007 video weren’t discovered until
> recently. The discussions at the above URL include all of the events in a
> format that is improved and easier to follow, but the raw data are also
> available for inspection.
> > There is a need for bird watchers to recognize that the situation of the
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker calls for unconventional approaches for identifying
> birds in video footage in which field marks alone may not be sufficiently
> resolved to make positive identifications. Adapting to the circumstances
> and exploring a different approach would seem to be appropriate for a group
> that goes by the name “ID Frontiers.” It’s surprising that certain 
members 

> of this forum seem to be cocksure that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is
> extinct. This would be surprising even if we only had the weakest of the
> three videos mentioned above. According to Julie Zickefoose, several
> characteristics of the bird in the 2006 video are consistent with an
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker but don’t seem to be consistent with a Pileated
> Woodpecker. There is no question that it’s a large woodpecker on the basis
> of the size of the fork in which it appears. The fork was collected after
> the tree blew down in 2008 and is available for inspection. It follows from
> the assessment of an expert on woodpecker flight mechanics that the bird in
> a video that was obtained along the same bayou in 2008 can only be
> explained in terms of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker. From the context of that
> video, it’s clear that I had an excellent vantage point for observing the
> definitive dorsal field marks (the bird was nearly directly below at close
> range). It’s amazing that anyone could have the arrogance to assert that
> such a sighting and numerous other sightings by experienced bird watchers
> (of a large bird with distinctive and prominent field marks and flight
> characteristics that are remarkable according to Audubon and others) were
> simply mistakes. The 2007 video shows several events involving highly
> unusual flights and other behaviors that are consistent with Ivory-billed
> Woodpecker but don’t seem to be consistent with any other candidate
> species. That video was obtained during an extended encounter with two
> Ivory-billed Woodpeckers at a site where an ornithologist had a sighting.
> Nobody has managed to refute any of this evidence.
> > We have come to a very critical juncture in the history of the
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Funding has dried up. The trails have gone cold.
> There are apparently no current hot spots. There are no search efforts
> comparable to those of the past decade either in progress or planned. It’s
> unlikely that any ornithologist would be willing to take the career risk of
> investing significant resources into another search effort. It’s unlikely
> that anyone will obtain a clear photo in time to make a difference in the
> conservation of this species, which is probably going to fall through the
> cracks once again unless leadership emerges from somewhere. Bird watchers
> could make a difference in this conservation issue.
> > Mike CollinsAlexandria, Virginiamike AT fishcrow.comhttp://fishcrow.com
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: [BIRDW G01] Nobo dy else ha d the ball s to do it .
From: christian artuso <chartuso AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 20:09:52 +0000
Dear Mike,

Although I am very interested in learning more about the evidence regarding 
IBWO, I am quite upset with the false dichotomy being presented here, 
especially the statement This post is intended for bird watchers who do care 
about conservation. The characterisation that those who have scrutinised your 
sightings/evidence as being somehow against conservation is offensive. Many of 
these people are passionate conservationists. As a conservationist, I welcome 
the scientific process, peer review and other forms of review and 

discussion, which benefit conservation (it isn't a hindrance as you imply). 
Your characterisation of birders is also over-generalised. There are birders 
who care deeply about conservation and some of us devote our careers and much 
of our free time to that end. In this case, many people are working hard to 
preserve and steward the habitats in question for their intrinsic value. If you 
would like to post about conservation please do, that is always welcome! Please 
also recognize the efforts that are ongoing and the many struggles that 
conservationists face in their difficult task. If you wish to describe or 
defend your evidence for the Ivory-billed Woodpeckers existence, then that is 
also welcome and interesting, but please do not pretend that that topic is 
about conservation  your discussion is rather about weighing the strength of 
the evidence, which is also valid. 


Bird watchers absolutely can make a big difference in conservation issues!

Christian Artuso (Manitoba, Canada)



> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 17:28:03 +0000
> From: mike AT FISHCROW.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nobody else had the balls to do it.
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> The subject of this post is a quote by John Fitzpatrick that appeared in the 
August 2007 issue of Science. He was referring to the fact that other 
ornithologists werent willing to take the career risk of getting involved in a 
topic as controversial and contentious as the Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Several 
years ago, it became apparent (during an uprising against the inclusion of 
conservation issues in a birding publication) that many bird watchers dont 
care about conservation issues. This post is intended for bird watchers who do 
care about conservation -- especially any who might have the balls to provide 
real leadership on this issue. 

> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLarETXSiUV1MFkKM6dkKTxnkM6tDAM9HZ
> I wrapped up an eight-year search effort last year, but I have posted a 
series of lectures at the above URL on the following issues: 

> * The Ivory-billed Woodpecker persists. I had encounters in Louisiana and 
Florida with at least four of them. Three of my ten sightings are supported by 
video evidence that is stronger than any other evidence that has been obtained. 

> * It is essential to establish a sustained conservation effort for this 
species without further delay. A previously missed opportunity set back the 
conservation of this species for decades and had a serious adverse effect on 
the search efforts of the past decade, which wasted millions of dollars by 
focusing almost entirely upon the goal of obtaining a clear photo. Think of 
where certain species would be right now if conservation efforts for the 
Whooping Crane, California Condor, and Kirtlands Warbler had been delayed for 
decades or if the harmful effects of DDT had never been recognized. 

> * An important fact that came out of the recent multi-year search efforts in 
Arkansas, Florida, and Louisiana is that it is unlikely that anyone will obtain 
a clear photo in time to make a difference in the conservation of the 
Ivory-billed Woodpecker. It should be clear from the pattern of multiple 
rediscoveries that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is an unusually elusive species. 
John Dennis knew this from direct experience, and he essentially foretold the 
outcomes of the search efforts of the past decade with the following comment in 
1985: It is almost impossible to photograph an ivorybill in a southern swamp 
unless a nest is discovered. 

> * Three videos that were obtained during encounters with birds that were 
identified in the field as Ivory-billed Woodpeckers show numerous behaviors and 
field marks that can only be explained in terms of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker. 
Those videos have received the support of several ornithologists (some openly, 
and some in private), and none of this evidence has been refuted. There are 
concise discussions of all three videos at the above URL. It is difficult to 
present such evidence, and some of the most compelling events in the 2007 video 
werent discovered until recently. The discussions at the above URL include all 
of the events in a format that is improved and easier to follow, but the raw 
data are also available for inspection. 

> There is a need for bird watchers to recognize that the situation of the 
Ivory-billed Woodpecker calls for unconventional approaches for identifying 
birds in video footage in which field marks alone may not be sufficiently 
resolved to make positive identifications. Adapting to the circumstances and 
exploring a different approach would seem to be appropriate for a group that 
goes by the name ID Frontiers. Its surprising that certain members of this 
forum seem to be cocksure that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is extinct. This 
would be surprising even if we only had the weakest of the three videos 
mentioned above. According to Julie Zickefoose, several characteristics of the 
bird in the 2006 video are consistent with an Ivory-billed Woodpecker but dont 
seem to be consistent with a Pileated Woodpecker. There is no question that 
its a large woodpecker on the basis of the size of the fork in which it 
appears. The fork was collected after the tree blew down in 2008 and is 
available for inspection. It follows from the assessment of an expert on 
woodpecker flight mechanics that the bird in a video that was obtained along 
the same bayou in 2008 can only be explained in terms of an Ivory-billed 
Woodpecker. From the context of that video, its clear that I had an excellent 
vantage point for observing the definitive dorsal field marks (the bird was 
nearly directly below at close range). Its amazing that anyone could have the 
arrogance to assert that such a sighting and numerous other sightings by 
experienced bird watchers (of a large bird with distinctive and prominent field 
marks and flight characteristics that are remarkable according to Audubon and 
others) were simply mistakes. The 2007 video shows several events involving 
highly unusual flights and other behaviors that are consistent with 
Ivory-billed Woodpecker but dont seem to be consistent with any other 
candidate species. That video was obtained during an extended encounter with 
two Ivory-billed Woodpeckers at a site where an ornithologist had a sighting. 
Nobody has managed to refute any of this evidence. 

> We have come to a very critical juncture in the history of the Ivory-billed 
Woodpecker. Funding has dried up. The trails have gone cold. There are 
apparently no current hot spots. There are no search efforts comparable to 
those of the past decade either in progress or planned. Its unlikely that any 
ornithologist would be willing to take the career risk of investing significant 
resources into another search effort. Its unlikely that anyone will obtain a 
clear photo in time to make a difference in the conservation of this species, 
which is probably going to fall through the cracks once again unless leadership 
emerges from somewhere. Bird watchers could make a difference in this 
conservation issue. 

> Mike CollinsAlexandria, Virginiamike AT fishcrow.comhttp://fishcrow.com
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: “Nobody else had the balls to do it .”
From: Blake Maybank <bmaybank AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 14:44:16 -0400
I am a conservationist, but am also a student of science, and am fascinated
by the role of memory in humans, especially with respect to eye-witness
testimony, and the observation of nature, particularly birds.  In light of
this I recommend the following essay regarding the fallibility of memory:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4446

In light of this I am inexorably drawn to the conclusion that, while there
is a remote chance that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is extant in the U.S.,
there is no compelling recent evidence that it does.  Regardless of the
species' continued existence, the increasingly rare habitat it preferred
should be saved for its own sake, along with all the other life therein.

IBWO, R.I.P.

Respectfully,

Blake Maybank


--
White's Lake, Nova Scotia
CANADA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: “Nobody else had the balls to do it.”
From: "Michael D. Collins" <mike AT FISHCROW.COM>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 17:28:03 +0000
The subject of this post is a quote by John Fitzpatrick that appeared in the 
August 2007 issue of Science. He was referring to the fact that other 
ornithologists weren’t willing to take the career risk of getting involved in 
a topic as controversial and contentious as the Ivory-billed Woodpecker. 
Several years ago, it became apparent (during an uprising against the inclusion 
of conservation issues in a birding publication) that many bird watchers 
don’t care about conservation issues. This post is intended for bird watchers 
who do care about conservation -- especially any who might have the balls to 
provide real leadership on this issue.  

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLarETXSiUV1MFkKM6dkKTxnkM6tDAM9HZ
I wrapped up an eight-year search effort last year, but I have posted a series 
of lectures at the above URL on the following issues: 

* The Ivory-billed Woodpecker persists. I had encounters in Louisiana and 
Florida with at least four of them. Three of my ten sightings are supported by 
video evidence that is stronger than any other evidence that has been 
obtained.  

* It is essential to establish a sustained conservation effort for this species 
without further delay. A previously missed opportunity set back the 
conservation of this species for decades and had a serious adverse effect on 
the search efforts of the past decade, which wasted millions of dollars by 
focusing almost entirely upon the goal of obtaining a clear photo. Think of 
where certain species would be right now if conservation efforts for the 
Whooping Crane, California Condor, and Kirtland’s Warbler had been delayed 
for decades or if the harmful effects of DDT had never been recognized.  

* An important fact that came out of the recent multi-year search efforts in 
Arkansas, Florida, and Louisiana is that it is unlikely that anyone will obtain 
a clear photo in time to make a difference in the conservation of the 
Ivory-billed Woodpecker. It should be clear from the pattern of multiple 
rediscoveries that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is an unusually elusive species. 
John Dennis knew this from direct experience, and he essentially foretold the 
outcomes of the search efforts of the past decade with the following comment in 
1985: “It is almost impossible to photograph an ivorybill in a southern swamp 
unless a nest is discovered.”  

* Three videos that were obtained during encounters with birds that were 
identified in the field as Ivory-billed Woodpeckers show numerous behaviors and 
field marks that can only be explained in terms of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker. 
Those videos have received the support of several ornithologists (some openly, 
and some in private), and none of this evidence has been refuted. There are 
concise discussions of all three videos at the above URL. It is difficult to 
present such evidence, and some of the most compelling events in the 2007 video 
weren’t discovered until recently. The discussions at the above URL include 
all of the events in a format that is improved and easier to follow, but the 
raw data are also available for inspection.  

There is a need for bird watchers to recognize that the situation of the 
Ivory-billed Woodpecker calls for unconventional approaches for identifying 
birds in video footage in which field marks alone may not be sufficiently 
resolved to make positive identifications. Adapting to the circumstances and 
exploring a different approach would seem to be appropriate for a group that 
goes by the name “ID Frontiers.” It’s surprising that certain members of 
this forum seem to be cocksure that the Ivory-billed Woodpecker is extinct. 
This would be surprising even if we only had the weakest of the three videos 
mentioned above. According to Julie Zickefoose, several characteristics of the 
bird in the 2006 video are consistent with an Ivory-billed Woodpecker but 
don’t seem to be consistent with a Pileated Woodpecker. There is no question 
that it’s a large woodpecker on the basis of the size of the fork in which it 
appears. The fork was collected after the tree blew down in 2008 and is 
available for inspection. It follows from the assessment of an expert on 
woodpecker flight mechanics that the bird in a video that was obtained along 
the same bayou in 2008 can only be explained in terms of an Ivory-billed 
Woodpecker. From the context of that video, it’s clear that I had an 
excellent vantage point for observing the definitive dorsal field marks (the 
bird was nearly directly below at close range). It’s amazing that anyone 
could have the arrogance to assert that such a sighting and numerous other 
sightings by experienced bird watchers (of a large bird with distinctive and 
prominent field marks and flight characteristics that are remarkable according 
to Audubon and others) were simply mistakes. The 2007 video shows several 
events involving highly unusual flights and other behaviors that are consistent 
with Ivory-billed Woodpecker but don’t seem to be consistent with any other 
candidate species. That video was obtained during an extended encounter with 
two Ivory-billed Woodpeckers at a site where an ornithologist had a sighting. 
Nobody has managed to refute any of this evidence.  

We have come to a very critical juncture in the history of the Ivory-billed 
Woodpecker. Funding has dried up. The trails have gone cold. There are 
apparently no current hot spots. There are no search efforts comparable to 
those of the past decade either in progress or planned. It’s unlikely that 
any ornithologist would be willing to take the career risk of investing 
significant resources into another search effort. It’s unlikely that anyone 
will obtain a clear photo in time to make a difference in the conservation of 
this species, which is probably going to fall through the cracks once again 
unless leadership emerges from somewhere. Bird watchers could make a difference 
in this conservation issue.  

Mike CollinsAlexandria, Virginiamike AT fishcrow.comhttp://fishcrow.com

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction)
From: Chuck Sexton <gcwarbler AT AUSTIN.RR.COM>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:20:44 -0600
Evidence of migratory patterns might be more properly termed “non-negative” 
information, in the sense that IF a stray like a Red-breasted Goose or other 
waterfowl did NOT exhibit an expected migratory pattern/timing, it would 
properly be considered suspect. If such a stray exhibits something resembling 
appropriate seasonality of geographic movement, multiple explanations are 
available including but not limited to wild origin, flock association/adhesion, 
etc. 


Chuck Sexton
Austin, TX

> On Dec 17, 2014, at 7:09 AM, Jeff Gilligan  wrote:

> I think the arrival and departure schedule of the Red-breasted Geese is the 
least important part of any evidence to be considered. 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction)
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:09:58 -0700
Thanks Michael

I think the arrival and departure schedule of the Red-breasted Geese is the 
least important part of any evidence to be considered. 


Incidentally, I mis-spelled the name of the eastern Siberian Island. It is 
spelled "Wrangel", not to be confused with "Wrangell" Island, Alaska. 



Jeff Gilligan



On Dec 17, 2014, at 4:17 AM, Michael Price  wrote:

> Hi All
> 
> Jeff Gilligan writes: <3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule 
with the normal migrant geese.> 

> 
> So did the the escaped Northern Flamingo which escaped from the Stanley Park 
Zoo in Vancouver BC in the mid-1980's, which allied itself with a migrant flock 
of CAGO and for the next several years caused conniptions from Alaska to 
northern California. 

> 
> I saw the damn thing myself one freezingly cold January day on the far side 
of Boundary Bay. I thought why would anyone want to stick a garden pink 
flamingo way the hell out on the mudflat? And then it started to feed. 

> 
> So, and let me stress I have no horse in this race, association does not 
necessarily establish authenticity. 

> 
> best wishes
> m
> 
> Michael Price
> Vancouver BC Canada
> loblollyboy AT gmail.com
> 
> Every answer deepens the mystery.
>                          -- E.O. Wilson
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Jeff Gilligan  
wrote: 

> I should have written that Wrangle Island is in the "eastern" Russian Arctic 
- the area closer to Alaska than the western Russian Arctic. 

> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 16, 2014, at 8:28 PM, Jeff Gilligan  wrote:
> 
> >
> > The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often 
Red-breasted Geese have been recorded in North America. 

> >
> >
> > The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted Goose 
has wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley. Not 
surprisingly, the birds' provenance is being questioned. The presumption has 
been that these birds have been escapees from collections. 

> >
> > Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from Asia 
include: 

> >
> > 1.  A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the 1800s.
> >
> > 2.  That neither bird has been banded.
> >
> > 3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal migrant 
geese. 

> >
> > 4. That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (eastern Russian 
arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the Pacific 
Northwest come from. 

> >
> >
> > There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the 
Pacific States. 

> >
> >
> > My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific 
States, and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances. 
Presumably if the Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be escapees 
elsewhere in the USA. 

> >
> >
> > Jeff Gilligan
> > Portland
> >
> >
> >
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction)
From: Michael Price <loblollyboy AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 03:17:34 -0800
Hi All

Jeff Gilligan writes: <3.  That they have arrived and departed on schedule
with the normal migrant geese.>

So did the the escaped Northern Flamingo which escaped from the Stanley
Park Zoo in Vancouver BC in the mid-1980's, which allied itself with a
migrant flock of CAGO and for the next several years caused conniptions
from Alaska to northern California.

I saw the damn thing myself one freezingly cold January day on the far side
of Boundary Bay. I thought why would anyone want to stick a garden pink
flamingo way the hell out on the mudflat? And then it started to feed.

So, and let me stress I have no horse in this race, association does not
necessarily establish authenticity.

best wishes
m

Michael Price
Vancouver BC Canada
loblollyboy AT gmail.com

Every answer deepens the mystery.
                         -- E.O. Wilson



On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Jeff Gilligan 
wrote:
>
> I should have written that Wrangle Island is in the "eastern" Russian
> Arctic -   the area closer to Alaska than the western Russian Arctic.
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2014, at 8:28 PM, Jeff Gilligan 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often
> Red-breasted Geese have been recorded in North America.
> >
> >
> > The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted
> Goose has wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley.
> Not surprisingly, the birds' provenance is  being questioned.  The
> presumption has been that these birds have been escapees from collections.
> >
> > Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from
> Asia include:
> >
> > 1.  A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the
> 1800s.
> >
> > 2.  That neither bird has been banded.
> >
> > 3.  That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal
> migrant geese.
> >
> > 4.  That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (eastern
> Russian arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the
> Pacific Northwest come from.
> >
> >
> > There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the
> Pacific States.
> >
> >
> > My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific
> States, and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances.
> Presumably if the Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be
> escapees elsewhere in the USA.
> >
> >
> > Jeff Gilligan
> > Portland
> >
> >
> >
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction)
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 21:07:04 -0700
I should have written that Wrangle Island is in the "eastern" Russian Arctic - 
the area closer to Alaska than the western Russian Arctic. 




On Dec 16, 2014, at 8:28 PM, Jeff Gilligan  wrote:

> 
> The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often Red-breasted 
Geese have been recorded in North America. 

> 
> 
> The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted Goose has 
wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley. Not 
surprisingly, the birds' provenance is being questioned. The presumption has 
been that these birds have been escapees from collections. 

> 
> Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from Asia 
include: 

> 
> 1.  A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the 1800s.
> 
> 2.  That neither bird has been banded.
> 
> 3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal migrant 
geese. 

> 
> 4. That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (eastern Russian 
arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the Pacific 
Northwest come from. 

> 
> 
> There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the Pacific 
States. 

> 
> 
> My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific 
States, and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances. 
Presumably if the Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be escapees 
elsewhere in the USA. 

> 
> 
> Jeff Gilligan
> Portland
> 
> 
> 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Fw: [BIRDWG01] Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America
From: Alan Wormington <wormington AT JUNO.COM>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 03:37:52 GMT
I do not know the specific details, but decades ago (1950s?) a Red-breasted 
Goose was shot on southern James Bay in northern Ontario. The bird was banded, 
and later it was determined that the bird had escaped from a zoo on the U.S. 
Atlantic Coast (maybe New Jersey?). 


Just think if the bird had not been banded! There would have been endless 
theories proposed on why the bird was probably "wild" because it was in such a 
remote area of the continent, and associating with other geese that were headed 
to the Arctic for breeding. 


Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario




---------- Forwarded Message ----------
From: Jeff Gilligan 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 20:28:14 -0700

The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often Red-breasted 
Geese have been recorded in North America. 



The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted Goose has 
wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley. Not 
surprisingly, the birds' provenance is being questioned. The presumption has 
been that these birds have been escapees from collections. 


Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from Asia 
include: 


1.  A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the 1800s.

2.  That neither bird has been banded.

3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal migrant 
geese. 


4. That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (western Russian 
arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the Pacific 
Northwest come from. 



There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the Pacific 
States. 



My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific States, 
and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances. Presumably if the 
Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be escapees elsewhere in the 
USA. 



Jeff Gilligan
Portland

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 20:28:14 -0700
The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often Red-breasted 
Geese have been recorded in North America. 



The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted Goose has 
wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley. Not 
surprisingly, the birds' provenance is being questioned. The presumption has 
been that these birds have been escapees from collections. 


Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from Asia 
include: 


1.  A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the 1800s.

2.  That neither bird has been banded.

3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal migrant 
geese. 


4. That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (western Russian 
arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the Pacific 
Northwest come from. 



There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the Pacific 
States. 



My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific States, 
and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances. Presumably if the 
Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be escapees elsewhere in the 
USA. 



Jeff Gilligan
Portland

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Labs that will do bird DNA analysis?
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 20:41:25 -0600
Does anyone know of any laboratories that can/will do bird DNA analysis?
I've now got several interesting gull fecal samples in a -20 degree chest
freezer, and I'm trying to find out who I should contact to get them
analyzed. It would be best if it could be done somewhere in northern
California, because the legality of mailing s***t, even if it comes from a
bird, is questionable at best...

Noah Arthur, Lincoln, NE/Oakland, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Fwd: Trumpeter Swans - East Coast re-introductions and vagrancy potential
From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 15:18:57 -0500
 
  
____________________________________
 From: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERVE.KSU.EDU,  BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: 14/12/2014 19:47:54 GMT Standard  Time
Subj: Trumpeter Swans - East Coast re-introductions and vagrancy  potential


Following a severe Atlantic storm to the north of the UK, a pair of  
TRUMPETER SWANS have appeared in Suffolk (UK) and joined a 70-throng grazing  
flock of Mute Swans just inland of the seawall at Boyton Marshes. Although  
probably just coincidental, similar weather preceded the last pair I saw in the 

UK - in south Devon in February 2005 (this pair remained for about a  week).
 
I am looking towards an update from North America and Canada on the East  
Coast reintroduction of this species and how well the project is faring.  
Population numbers and migrational abilities/strategies (eg, any long distance 

movements).
 
Most birders in Britain consider this species a 'non event' and believe  
them to be escapes, with perhaps 150 or so in captivity. They have very  
occasionally bred in the wild in Britain but not recently. At least one bird is 

free-ranging in Holland.
 
Looking forward to any guidance and comments that any of you can  provide
 
Very best wishes
 
Lee Evans  

You can now follow Lee on Twitter at  LeeEvansBirding

Make your records go much further and contribute  towards the protection, 
knowledge and further education of our native wildlife  - join up to 
BIRDTRACK today - you know it makes sense -  
http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/main/data-home.jsp





Lee  G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour  Leader
General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ 
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) 
British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk_ 
(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/) 
Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information - 
http://ultimateguidingbirdwise.blogspot.co.uk/
Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements - 
_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_ 
(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/) 

Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
Western  Palearctic Bird News - 
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
Items  For Sale or Exchange - 
http://leesmemorabiliaandcollectables.blogspot.co.uk/

Local  Websites
Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Buckinghamshire  Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Birds  of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: "Spahr, Timothy" <tspahr AT CFA.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:43:09 -0500
Hi All,

First of all, this is an absolutely fascinating discussion, and it is
helping me (and others I'm sure) work through the maze of empidonax
identification.

As an eastern birder who dabbles in western birds occasionally, this bird
seems to be in the Dusky/Least pile for me.  Dusky (and Hammond's for that
matter) often appear gray-headed to me--particularly Dusky.  This bird has
that appearance to me in many of the photos, but the tail length and the
primary edgings seem to lean towards Least.  Further, the bill width seems
to indicate the bird could be a Least.  I have been burned too many times
relying on color features in photographs, and would appreciate a bit more
on structure to help me come to any sort of conclusion.  Note this is not a
knock on the photographers (I take thousands of bird photos a year), but
just a cautionary note in determining color shades from often
poorly-exposed photos of frenetic out-of-season insectivores.

So--are the tail length, apparent bill width, and primary edging contrast
inconsistent with a Least Flycatcher?

It would be great if the call notes could be recorded--that would surely
settle the Dusky/Least debate.

For posterity here is a Least Flycatcher from Wayland, MA on 7 Dec 2013
found by Brian Harris.  Xeno-Canto recording below as well.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/campephilus1/sets/72157638449638206/

http://www.xeno-canto.org/157164


Best,

Tim Spahr



On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Avery Bartels 
wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
>
> A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
> has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards
> the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
> description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
>
>
> http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/
>
>
> For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
>
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/
>
>
> I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
> western birders who have more experience with these species.
>
> Good birding,
>
>
> Avery Bartels,
> Wolfville, NS
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>


-- 
Timothy B. Spahr, PhD
Director, Minor Planet Center
Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 20:49:45 +0000
Hi,

I have nothing to add from an ID perspective. These Empids all go way over my 
head. From a photographic perspective I do have something to add. The 
differences between these images can all be explained by lighting and exposure. 


Steve Bruce's pictures:-  http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/ 
Taken in duller light than Jake Walker's shots. Ideally exposed and white 
balanced. 


Jake Walker's pictures:- 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087 AT N03/15792436220/in/photostream/ 

Much more challenging light for the photographer. Very warm white balance (low 
sun?). Also certainly taken in brighter light than SB's images (though 3rd 
image in the sequence (15360100423_cf6d5f7c13_o) is different). So the images 
suffer from motion blur, white balance adjustment and loss of tonal range due 
to the brighter light (broader dynamic range). Taking a look at the histograms 
of the two sets of images there is a small bit of clipping in the red channel 
in JW's images which will affect colour very slightly (clipping may or may not 
be occurring in the bird's plumage). 


Steve Bruce's pictures will naturally be closer to accurate but when white 
balance, exposure and contrast are all corrected for in Jake Walker's better 
exposed images the differences between these two sets of images is actually 
fairly minimal. 


Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Lethaby, Nick 

Sent: 11 December 2014 17:43
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

With regards to the NS bird, I am concerned with differences between the two 
sets of photos. Looking at Steve Bruce's pictures, I would definitely be in the 
Dusky (or possibly Hammond's/Least) camp over Gray. However (the less good) 
pictures on Jake Walker's site seem to depict a paler gray and whiter bird more 
in line with a Gray. Can someone comment on which photo set matches what was 
seen in the field? I agree with others that the videos seem to rule out Gray on 
the tail flicking behavior but it would be good to establish which set of 
photos show the bird's plumage best. 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Paul Gorbet 

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 6:27 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower 
mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight 
duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 


If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call 
notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly 
stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher. 



--
Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM

Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of Albuquerque 
NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & Linguistics) 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Avery Bartels <averybartels AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:26:58 -0500
Hi All,
 
Here are a few more shots of this bird from Rick Whitman.
 
http://rickwhitman.smugmug.com/Nature/Birds-October-December-2014/i-dprmmJt/A
 
and a short video at 50% speed:
 
http://rickwhitman.smugmug.com/Nature/Birds-October-December-2014/i-bVNxqDd/A
 
 
Good birding,
 
Avery Bartels
 
> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:42:35 +0000
> From: nlethaby AT TI.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> With regards to the NS bird, I am concerned with differences between the two 
sets of photos. Looking at Steve Bruce's pictures, I would definitely be in the 
Dusky (or possibly Hammond's/Least) camp over Gray. However (the less good) 
pictures on Jake Walker's site seem to depict a paler gray and whiter bird more 
in line with a Gray. Can someone comment on which photo set matches what was 
seen in the field? I agree with others that the videos seem to rule out Gray on 
the tail flicking behavior but it would be good to establish which set of 
photos show the bird's plumage best. 

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Paul Gorbet 

> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 6:27 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
> 
> Ive probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower 
mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight 
duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 

> 
> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empids call 
notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly 
stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammonds call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammonds is about 10% higher. 

> 
> 
> --
> Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM
> 
> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of 
Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & 
Linguistics) 

> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Avery Bartels <averybartels AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:01:15 -0500
Hi Suzanne,
 
Thanks for the comments. Regarding the NS bird it is a hatch-year, see my 
previous message to the group. Your October Least is also a hatch-year, the 
most obvious indicator being the shape of the tail feathers. In most 
passerines, including Flycatchers, hatch-years have more pointed tail feathers. 
This is apparent on your bird, especially the outermost tail feather. The 
edging of the coverts and tertials can be quite faded by now in young birds. 
Also, in the photo you link to, the edging is a bit over-exposed possibly 
creating the impression of being whiter than they are. 

 
As to why the NS bird is not a Least, much of that has been covered by Nick. 
Note how olive green the Mass. Least flycatcher is compared to the NS bird. 
Structurally, the NS bird is longer tailed and the bill is longer and narrower 
than a Least. 

 
Good birding,
 
Avery Bartels
Wolfville, NS

 
> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:22:19 -0500
> From: swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Thanks Nick and others,
> 
>  I guess some folks thought the Oct Least  I linked to was tricky. I
> certainly see Least in it also. Frankly all can be tricky to some
> degree, right? Plumage can be often unreliable. Personally I have 0
> experience with  December Leasts.  So what would be the age of the NS
> bird if a western type? I would suspect some plumage fading on some
> birds. Here is a late Oct Least from this year I'm guessing adult.
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/158043341 and
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/158043340    Note the faded plumage
> from olive to gray and the upper inner tertials grayish ( or this
> because light and  angle?) I also included links another Least from
> Nov 30 last year. This one id'ed as a  juv. and most of the discussion
> is around structure. Once again to me the structure is very similar
> between all these birds and the NS bird, but I am certainly no expert.
> The 2 bird reports are from Matt Garvey ( photos from Marshall Iliff)
> and Ryan Merrill. With out a recording I'm not sure one can id such a
> bird for sure. But still to my eyes I don't see how Least can be ruled
> out. The only feature that seems to not point to Least is the bill to
> me but hard to say for sure from photos. At any rate hope these links
> can help in one way or another.
> 
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15760774
> 
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15763596
> Cheers,
> 
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:
> > Suzanne:
> >
> > I am surprised this (= Oct Mass) bird caused a lot of debate. If I saw this 
bird in coastal California, where Least is a rare migrant, I would 
unhesitatingly identify it as a Least. Compared the NS bird, in addition to the 
shorter bill you noted, it also lacks the extensive gray of that (=NS) bird on 
the upperparts and sides of the throat and breast. This bird shows rather 
whitish underparts contrasting with dull uniform grayish-olive upperparts. This 
is how many Least look in fall to me. I would say the wings of this bird are a 
bit more contrasting as well and again like a Least. 

> >
> > Nick
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
?[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan 

> > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:14 AM
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
> >
> > All,
> >
> > I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no 
difference, except maybe bill length, between this Oct flycatcher from Mass a 
few years ago that received much attention but was ultimately determined Least. 
Wing looks virtually identical to my eyes anyway. 

> > http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/pi_late_oct_least_flycatcher
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet  wrote:
> >> Ive probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the 
lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a 
slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 

> >>
> >> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empids 
call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are 
highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammonds call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammonds is about 10% higher. 

> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM
> >>
> >> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of
> >> Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus,
> >> Anthropology & Linguistics)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Suzanne M. Sullivan
> > Wilmington, MA
> > swampy435 AT gmail.com
> >
> > Be the Voice of the River
> > http://www.ipswichriver.org
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Suzanne M. Sullivan
> Wilmington, MA
> swampy435 AT gmail.com
> 
> Be the Voice of the River
> http://www.ipswichriver.org
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:58:59 -0500
A quick note on molt - all Empids except HAFL and ACFL molt on the winter
grounds after southbound migration and thus are very worn in late
summer/fall when in the U.S. and Canada. I have seen few if any exceptions
to this (adults molting on the summer grounds or stopover areas, or
present in fresh plumage up here). Thus, virtually all fresh birds up here
in Aug-Nov are HYs, including all of the birds linked so far in this
discussion in a quick assessment.

Peter


> Thanks Nick and others,
>
>  I guess some folks thought the Oct Least  I linked to was tricky. I
> certainly see Least in it also. Frankly all can be tricky to some
> degree, right? Plumage can be often unreliable. Personally I have 0
> experience with  December Leasts.  So what would be the age of the NS
> bird if a western type? I would suspect some plumage fading on some
> birds. Here is a late Oct Least from this year I'm guessing adult.
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/158043341 and
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/158043340    Note the faded plumage
> from olive to gray and the upper inner tertials grayish ( or this
> because light and  angle?) I also included links another Least from
> Nov 30 last year. This one id'ed as a  juv. and most of the discussion
> is around structure. Once again to me the structure is very similar
> between all these birds and the NS bird, but I am certainly no expert.
> The 2 bird reports are from Matt Garvey ( photos from Marshall Iliff)
> and Ryan Merrill. With out a recording I'm not sure one can id such a
> bird for sure. But still to my eyes I don't see how Least can be ruled
> out. The only feature that seems to not point to Least is the bill to
> me but hard to say for sure from photos. At any rate hope these links
> can help in one way or another.
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15760774
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15763596
> Cheers,
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:
>> Suzanne:
>>
>> I am surprised this (= Oct Mass) bird caused a lot of debate. If I saw
>> this bird in coastal California, where Least is a rare migrant, I would
>> unhesitatingly identify it as a Least. Compared the NS bird, in addition
>> to the shorter bill you noted, it also lacks the extensive gray of that
>> (=NS) bird on the upperparts and sides of the throat and breast. This
>> bird shows rather whitish underparts contrasting with dull uniform
>> grayish-olive upperparts. This is how many Least look in fall to me. I
>> would say the wings of this bird are a bit more contrasting as well and
>> again like a Least.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>> ?[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan
>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:14 AM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
>>
>> All,
>>
>> I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no
>> difference, except maybe bill length,  between this Oct flycatcher from
>> Mass a few years ago that received much attention but was ultimately
>> determined Least. Wing looks virtually identical to my eyes anyway.
>> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/pi_late_oct_least_flycatcher
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet 
>> wrote:
>>> I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the
>>> lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having
>>> only a slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more
>>> dark.
>>>
>>> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this
>>> empid’s call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their
>>> call notes are highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic
>>> analysis software, two characteristics that differentiate the species
>>> under consideration are quite striking. The duration of the Hammond’s
>>> call is about 6 or 7 times that of a Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is
>>> about 10% higher.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM
>>>
>>> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of
>>> Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus,
>>> Anthropology & Linguistics)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Suzanne M. Sullivan
>> Wilmington, MA
>> swampy435 AT gmail.com
>>
>> Be the Voice of the River
>> http://www.ipswichriver.org
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
>
> --
> Suzanne M. Sullivan
> Wilmington, MA
> swampy435 AT gmail.com
>
> Be the Voice of the River
> http://www.ipswichriver.org
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Suzanne Sullivan <swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:22:19 -0500
Thanks Nick and others,

 I guess some folks thought the Oct Least  I linked to was tricky. I
certainly see Least in it also. Frankly all can be tricky to some
degree, right? Plumage can be often unreliable. Personally I have 0
experience with  December Leasts.  So what would be the age of the NS
bird if a western type? I would suspect some plumage fading on some
birds. Here is a late Oct Least from this year I'm guessing adult.
http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/158043341 and
http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/158043340    Note the faded plumage
from olive to gray and the upper inner tertials grayish ( or this
because light and  angle?) I also included links another Least from
Nov 30 last year. This one id'ed as a  juv. and most of the discussion
is around structure. Once again to me the structure is very similar
between all these birds and the NS bird, but I am certainly no expert.
The 2 bird reports are from Matt Garvey ( photos from Marshall Iliff)
and Ryan Merrill. With out a recording I'm not sure one can id such a
bird for sure. But still to my eyes I don't see how Least can be ruled
out. The only feature that seems to not point to Least is the bill to
me but hard to say for sure from photos. At any rate hope these links
can help in one way or another.

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15760774

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15763596
Cheers,

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:
> Suzanne:
>
> I am surprised this (= Oct Mass) bird caused a lot of debate. If I saw this 
bird in coastal California, where Least is a rare migrant, I would 
unhesitatingly identify it as a Least. Compared the NS bird, in addition to the 
shorter bill you noted, it also lacks the extensive gray of that (=NS) bird on 
the upperparts and sides of the throat and breast. This bird shows rather 
whitish underparts contrasting with dull uniform grayish-olive upperparts. This 
is how many Least look in fall to me. I would say the wings of this bird are a 
bit more contrasting as well and again like a Least. 

>
> Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
?[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan 

> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:14 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
>
> All,
>
> I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no difference, 
except maybe bill length, between this Oct flycatcher from Mass a few years ago 
that received much attention but was ultimately determined Least. Wing looks 
virtually identical to my eyes anyway. 

> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/pi_late_oct_least_flycatcher
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet  wrote:
>> I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the 
lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a 
slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 

>>
>> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s 
call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are 
highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher. 

>>
>>
>> --
>> Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM
>>
>> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of
>> Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus,
>> Anthropology & Linguistics)
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Suzanne M. Sullivan
> Wilmington, MA
> swampy435 AT gmail.com
>
> Be the Voice of the River
> http://www.ipswichriver.org
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



-- 
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Avery Bartels <averybartels AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 12:10:53 -0600
Hi Nick,

The lighting in pretty much all of both sets of pics is not great. Some of 
Jake's are a bit over exposed, Bruces in lowish light. From my personal 
experience with Dusky Flycartchers (I grew up in BC and have banded lots) I 
would say that this bird was on the paler end of the spectrum but by no 
means unusually pale for a DUFL. I would encourage looking beyond 
colouration and focussing more on other relevant field marks and shape etc.

My experience of Gray Flycatcher is extremely limited so I cant comment too 
much in regards to them.

Good birding,

Avery Bartels,
Wolfville, NS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Avery Bartels <averybartels AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:56:27 -0600
Hi All,

Thanks for all your responses. The general consensus seems to be that this 
is a Dusky Flycatcher. Having personally seen and banded lots of DUFL, HAFL 
and LEFL in BC, the latter two were removed from consideration (in my mind 
at least) from the get-go. Structurally, the bird in question was simply 
too elongated, with a relatively long tail, and incorrect wing formula for 
either LEFL or HAFL. The call was also clearly not that of a HAFL. 

For interests sake it is worth pointing out this bird is a hatch-year (born 
this year). This has been independently noted by others. See the rather 
pointed rectrices as well as the fact that the greater coverts have a 
moderate amount of wear. An adult would have just finished it's moult and 
be very fresh. Alternately, if it had delayed it's moult due to the stress 
of surviving in inclement weather conditions since arriving, it would be 
extremely worn all over.

If anyone has any additional comments about this bird that would be great. 
The species that few of us out here seem to be familiar enough with is 
Gray, which I think was a contributing factor to the ID difficulties.

Thanks again and good birding!

Avery Bartels,
Wolfville, NS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:42:35 +0000
With regards to the NS bird, I am concerned with differences between the two 
sets of photos. Looking at Steve Bruce's pictures, I would definitely be in the 
Dusky (or possibly Hammond's/Least) camp over Gray. However (the less good) 
pictures on Jake Walker's site seem to depict a paler gray and whiter bird more 
in line with a Gray. Can someone comment on which photo set matches what was 
seen in the field? I agree with others that the videos seem to rule out Gray on 
the tail flicking behavior but it would be good to establish which set of 
photos show the bird's plumage best. 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Paul Gorbet 

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 6:27 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower 
mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight 
duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 


If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call 
notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly 
stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher. 



--
Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM

Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of Albuquerque 
NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & Linguistics) 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:41:10 +0000
Suzanne:

I am surprised this (= Oct Mass) bird caused a lot of debate. If I saw this 
bird in coastal California, where Least is a rare migrant, I would 
unhesitatingly identify it as a Least. Compared the NS bird, in addition to the 
shorter bill you noted, it also lacks the extensive gray of that (=NS) bird on 
the upperparts and sides of the throat and breast. This bird shows rather 
whitish underparts contrasting with dull uniform grayish-olive upperparts. This 
is how many Least look in fall to me. I would say the wings of this bird are a 
bit more contrasting as well and again like a Least. 


Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
?[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan 

Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:14 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

All,

I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no difference, 
except maybe bill length, between this Oct flycatcher from Mass a few years ago 
that received much attention but was ultimately determined Least. Wing looks 
virtually identical to my eyes anyway. 

http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/pi_late_oct_least_flycatcher


On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet  wrote:
> I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower 
mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight 
duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 

>
> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call 
notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly 
stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher. 

>
>
> --
> Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM
>
> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of 
> Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus, 
> Anthropology & Linguistics)
>
>



--
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Suzanne Sullivan <swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:21:11 -0500
PS..... I also did not mention, Least Flycatchers pump tail upward and
flick wings.



-- 
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Suzanne Sullivan <swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:13:31 -0500
All,

I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no
difference, except maybe bill length,  between this Oct flycatcher
from Mass a few years ago that received much attention but was
ultimately determined Least. Wing looks virtually identical to my eyes
anyway.
http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/pi_late_oct_least_flycatcher


On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet  wrote:
> I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower 
mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight 
duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 

>
> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call 
notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly 
stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher. 

>
>
> --
> Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM
>
> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of 
Albuquerque NM since 1979) 

> University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & Linguistics)
>
>



-- 
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Larry Paul Gorbet <lgorbet AT UNM.EDU>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 02:26:49 +0000
I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower 
mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight 
duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 


If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call 
notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly 
stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher. 



--
Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM

Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of Albuquerque 
NM since 1979) 

University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & Linguistics)


Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Tim Janzen <tjanzen AT COMCAST.NET>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:48:38 -0800
Dear Avery,
I agree with Dave that Gray Flycatcher is not an option for this bird.
However, I don't feel comfortable eliminating Dusky.  The bird doesn't show
as much orange on the lower mandible as I would expect for a Dusky
Flycatcher, but the bill seems large for a Hammond's Flycatcher.  The
primary projection seems relatively short to my eye.  Do you have any photos
that show the underside of the bill well?
Sincerely,
Tim Janzen
Portland, OR

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:11 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

The primary projection on this bird appears to be much too long for both
Dusky and Gray and the tail flick isn't right for either species. To my eye,
this bird is a rather typical looking Hammond's Flycatcher.

Dave Irons

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:35:36 -0500
 All:

I posted a comment on the cited website with, essentially, all points raised by 
Gary noted. I could not discern bill pattern in the bird, as the underside of 
the mandible is not particularly visible in any still nor in any video. The 
extreme dullness of the bird, particularly the face pattern, and the grayness 
of the plumage should rule out any Hammond's Fly. That is because all should be 
in relatively fresh plumage now, unlike both Dusky and Gray, which conduct 
their preformative and prebasic molts on winter grounds (Hammond's prebasic is 
conducted on breeding grounds). Additionally, as noted by Gary, the call note 
absolutely rules out Hammond's (assuming that it was heard and assessed 
correctly). The tail action ABSOLUTELY rules out Gray. 


Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Nunn 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Wed, Dec 10, 2014 5:50 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid


Hi Avery,

I see both Gray and Dusky regularly here in San Diego and the tail action
of this bird, in the videos available, points to it being a Dusky
Flycatcher.  Typical tail action of Gray Flycatcher is languid downward
clocking only with a slightly faster raise of the tail back to the
"relaxed" or normal posture.  The tail may overshoot the "relaxed" posture
very slightly but it never flicks up strongly.  The speed of the tail
movement in Gray, I mean physically as the tail goes down and back up, is
noticeably slower also than the faster twitchy tail movements of Dusky.  In
addition the Gray Flycatcher does not flick its wings while clocking the
tail down or back up, at least when it is relaxed and moving around feeding
and not alarmed.  In fact the wings on Gray don't seem to move a whole lot
while the bird is perched, which adds to the strange impression of the tail
clocking downwards in almost robot like fashion.  In my experience if you
watch a Gray Flycatcher it will eventually start down clocking the tail, it
is not often that I see one and there is no motion of the tail.  The two
species are quite easy to separate based on behavior differences.

In terms of appearance the Gray Flycatcher is decidedly frosty or glaucous
looking in plumage compared to all other Empidonax.  They can look quite
ghostly sitting in a leafless bush for example, with a strong component of
grayish-white to the plumage tone.  The name is appropriate!  Your
flycatcher has warmer color tones and I believe possibly some patches of
fresh brownish-olive body plumage which are more strongly colored, pointing
to it being a Dusky.

Least Flycatcher can be eliminated on wing coloration/contrast and
additionally its more rapid whitting, repeated in short bursts unlike both
Gray and Dusky which tend to make intermittent single whit calls.

Lower mandible color is of some use but Dusky has variable extent of dusky
coloration on the lower mandible bill tip and strong light illumination can
fool you into thinking there is not much dark there. So the field mark can
look to overlap sometimes if only a small darker tip is noticed.  Gray
always has just a small dark tip to the lower mandible but this field mark
is tricky to see and actually quite difficult to photograph effectively
also due to the fact that many undersides of Empid bills in photographs are
strongly illuminated from above.  I would rely on this field mark carefully
only with good photographs, for example under a high dense tree canopy with
the bird sitting lower and above you.

Gray Flycatcher bill size is decidedly stronger (larger?) looking than
Dusky and the head shape has subtle shape difference too, I believe more
elongated front to back than Dusky producing a nicer oval impression versus
a more rounded look of Dusky.  Both species have generous hooks on the
upper mandible tip which in very high-def photos is useful to separate from
Hammond's which, "in life" (not a museum tray, I think all Empids actually
have hooks on the tip), holds its bill tips closer matched.  This can be
useful if you lack a good primary projection photograph of a Hammond's for
example.

I have some extensive series of photographs of Gray and Dusky on my blog.
You can see a good example of the tail clocking action in Gray Flycatcher
in the last few photographs here - tail relaxed, tail down
http://www.sandiegobirding.com/?p=4070

In my opinion this is a Dusky Flycatcher.

Gary Nunn,
San Diego

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Avery Bartels 
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
> A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
> has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards
> the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
> description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
>
>
> http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/
>
>
> For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
>
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/
>
>
> I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
> western birders who have more experience with these species.
>
> Good birding,
>
>
> Avery Bartels,
> Wolfville, NS
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Gary Nunn

*San Diego Birding - my blog *
garybnunn AT gmail.com
Mobile: 650-305-0029

San Diego Field Ornithologists 
President & Program Chair

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Gary Nunn <garybnunn AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:23:24 -0800
Primary projection is quite difficult to estimate from photographs of
Empids.  Whether you are looking up or down at the bird, and very
importantly if the bird is dropping its wings or has them more rested on
the back and uppertail coverts. In a good series of shots of a Hammond's
you could expect to end up with a few that look clearly to have long
primary projection like this for example
http://www.sandiegobirding.com/?p=2518

Hammond's Flycatcher can be eliminated on call since it does not make the
"whit" call described but instead has a more piercing "peek", or "pip"
which it usually emits in excited bursts, particularly around other
Empids.  Always hard to locate that call if the bird is not visible!

Gary Nunn,
San Diego

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 2:10 PM, David Irons  wrote:

> The primary projection on this bird appears to be much too long for both
> Dusky and Gray and the tail flick isn't right for either species. To my
> eye, this bird is a rather typical looking Hammond's Flycatcher.
>
> Dave Irons
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 10, 2014, at 1:16 PM, "Avery Bartels" 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> >
> > A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
> > has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning
> towards
> > the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
> > description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
> >
> >
> > http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/
> >
> >
> > For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
> >
> >
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/
> >
> >
> > I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
> > western birders who have more experience with these species.
> >
> > Good birding,
> >
> >
> > Avery Bartels,
> > Wolfville, NS
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Gary Nunn

*San Diego Birding - my blog *
garybnunn AT gmail.com
Mobile: 650-305-0029

San Diego Field Ornithologists 
President & Program Chair

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Leith McKenzie <loinneilceol AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 23:19:13 +0000
The ratio of the primary extension to the extension of the rectrices beyond the 
primary tips is approximately 3. This ration fits Hammond's Flycatcher.  Hatch 
year Hammond's Flycatcher can show a fully colored lower mandible. The general 
coloration of the bird also fits Hammond's Flycatcher. And the bird has the 
short-tailed appearance of a Hammond's.  


Sincerely  

Leith  
   



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.” 


Jonathan Livingston Seagull
      From: Avery Bartels 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 12:50 PM
 Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
   
Hi All,


A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird 
has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards 
the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a 
description of the history of the sighting on his page below.


http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/


For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/


I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from 
western birders who have more experience with these species.

Good birding,


Avery Bartels,
Wolfville, NS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Gary Nunn <garybnunn AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:48:51 -0800
Hi Avery,

I see both Gray and Dusky regularly here in San Diego and the tail action
of this bird, in the videos available, points to it being a Dusky
Flycatcher.  Typical tail action of Gray Flycatcher is languid downward
clocking only with a slightly faster raise of the tail back to the
"relaxed" or normal posture.  The tail may overshoot the "relaxed" posture
very slightly but it never flicks up strongly.  The speed of the tail
movement in Gray, I mean physically as the tail goes down and back up, is
noticeably slower also than the faster twitchy tail movements of Dusky.  In
addition the Gray Flycatcher does not flick its wings while clocking the
tail down or back up, at least when it is relaxed and moving around feeding
and not alarmed.  In fact the wings on Gray don't seem to move a whole lot
while the bird is perched, which adds to the strange impression of the tail
clocking downwards in almost robot like fashion.  In my experience if you
watch a Gray Flycatcher it will eventually start down clocking the tail, it
is not often that I see one and there is no motion of the tail.  The two
species are quite easy to separate based on behavior differences.

In terms of appearance the Gray Flycatcher is decidedly frosty or glaucous
looking in plumage compared to all other Empidonax.  They can look quite
ghostly sitting in a leafless bush for example, with a strong component of
grayish-white to the plumage tone.  The name is appropriate!  Your
flycatcher has warmer color tones and I believe possibly some patches of
fresh brownish-olive body plumage which are more strongly colored, pointing
to it being a Dusky.

Least Flycatcher can be eliminated on wing coloration/contrast and
additionally its more rapid whitting, repeated in short bursts unlike both
Gray and Dusky which tend to make intermittent single whit calls.

Lower mandible color is of some use but Dusky has variable extent of dusky
coloration on the lower mandible bill tip and strong light illumination can
fool you into thinking there is not much dark there. So the field mark can
look to overlap sometimes if only a small darker tip is noticed.  Gray
always has just a small dark tip to the lower mandible but this field mark
is tricky to see and actually quite difficult to photograph effectively
also due to the fact that many undersides of Empid bills in photographs are
strongly illuminated from above.  I would rely on this field mark carefully
only with good photographs, for example under a high dense tree canopy with
the bird sitting lower and above you.

Gray Flycatcher bill size is decidedly stronger (larger?) looking than
Dusky and the head shape has subtle shape difference too, I believe more
elongated front to back than Dusky producing a nicer oval impression versus
a more rounded look of Dusky.  Both species have generous hooks on the
upper mandible tip which in very high-def photos is useful to separate from
Hammond's which, "in life" (not a museum tray, I think all Empids actually
have hooks on the tip), holds its bill tips closer matched.  This can be
useful if you lack a good primary projection photograph of a Hammond's for
example.

I have some extensive series of photographs of Gray and Dusky on my blog.
You can see a good example of the tail clocking action in Gray Flycatcher
in the last few photographs here - tail relaxed, tail down
http://www.sandiegobirding.com/?p=4070

In my opinion this is a Dusky Flycatcher.

Gary Nunn,
San Diego

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Avery Bartels 
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
> A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
> has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards
> the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
> description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
>
>
> http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/
>
>
> For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
>
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/
>
>
> I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
> western birders who have more experience with these species.
>
> Good birding,
>
>
> Avery Bartels,
> Wolfville, NS
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Gary Nunn

*San Diego Birding - my blog *
garybnunn AT gmail.com
Mobile: 650-305-0029

San Diego Field Ornithologists 
President & Program Chair

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:10:37 -0800
The primary projection on this bird appears to be much too long for both
Dusky and Gray and the tail flick isn't right for either species. To my eye, 
this bird is a rather typical looking Hammond's Flycatcher. 


Dave Irons

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 10, 2014, at 1:16 PM, "Avery Bartels"  wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> 
> A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird 
> has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards 
> the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a 
> description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
> 
> 
> http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/
> 
> 
> For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
> 
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/
> 
> 
> I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from 
> western birders who have more experience with these species.
> 
> Good birding,
> 
> 
> Avery Bartels,
> Wolfville, NS
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Avery Bartels <averybartels AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:50:53 -0600
Hi All,


A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird 
has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards 
the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a 
description of the history of the sighting on his page below.


http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/


For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/


I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from 
western birders who have more experience with these species.

Good birding,


Avery Bartels,
Wolfville, NS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Buteo
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 13:45:34 -0500
 Hi all:

Ah, I somehow missed that. However, it does not at all change my assessment of 
the species. Being July, the bird is almost certainly in wing molt, so the 
longest primaries may well not be full-grown or even present, which can greatly 
alter wingtip shape and length. 


Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Leith McKenzie 
To: Tony Leukering ; BIRDWG01 
Sent: Tue, Dec 2, 2014 1:41 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo



Thanks for the information.


Just to be clear, the assessment that the tail tip extends ~1 inch beyond the 
end of the primaries, is based on by observation of the bird in the field with 
binoculars. This fact is what peaked my interest in this bird in the first 
place. 

 

 
 



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.” 


Jonathan Livingston Seagull

  
 
 
 
   From: Tony Leukering 
 To: loinneilceol AT yahoo.com; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 10:31 AM
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo
  
 


All:

I believe that this is a dark Swainson's Hawk.  My rationale follows.

 
1) We cannot accurately assess wing length, because the tips are hidden by the 
tail, though there is some suggestion that, perhaps, one wingtip barely extends 
beyond the tail tip. 


2) If a Swainson's, this bird is probably a year old or so, as fresh juveniles 
(of whatever color) have obvious pale fringing to back feathers, scapulars, and 
wing coverts that this bird lacks. Also, the appearance of the bird's plumage 
is just too messy for the bird to be older. That is, it lacks the smooth, 
concolorousness, particularly on the underparts, of an adult. 


3) A Red-tailed Hawk of this general coloration might be a rufous 'morph' (I'm 
not sure that this term is entirely appropriate for either Red-taileds or, 
particularly, Swainson's hawks). If so, a juvenile of such would show obvious 
streaking below and, again, extensive pale fringing of upperparts feathers. If 
an adult, it would show a wide black belly contrasting with a dark rufous 
chest. This bird shows neither underparts coloration/pattern, nor is the its 
coloration at all intermediate between the two, so we can rule out an immature 
rufous Red-tailed in transition to adult plumage. If it were a dark 'morph' 
Red-tailed, it would have darker body plumage, regardless of the age. Finally, 
as noted by Leith, the bird does not sport any obvious pale coloration on the 
scapulars, which should rule out just about any form of Red-tailed Hawk. 


4) Broad-winged Hawk is a large-headed, chunky raptor that does not at all fit 
this bird's shape. Additionally, in the 100s of 1000s of Broad-wingeds that 
I've seen, I've never seen one with anything like this coloration, and I've 
seen >130 dark Broad-wingeds. 


5) Ferruginous and Rough-legged hawks are right out, as are all of the 
southern, range-restricted buteos. 


6) There really is not a northern ABA-area buteo other than Swainson's that 
sports the somewhat-small-headed, attenuated rear-end look of the bird in 
question. The attenuated look in Swainson's is created by the combination of 
both length (long) AND width (narrow) of the tail, as well as the shape of the 
lower end of the body. Red-tailed Hawk has a larger, rounder head with a 
more-prominent bill and an overall appearance that can only rarely be termed 
'svelte.' 


7) Finally, though non-definitive, the barring on the bird's tail is suggestive 
of Swainson's in that the individual bars do not reach the inner edge of the 
feathers AND that the shape is somewhat suggestive of that silly 'M' pattern 
that untalented or impatient artists draw when putting flying gulls into a 
scene. The barring on Red-taileds tends to be straight across the feather and 
reaching both edges of the feather. There are certainly contrary examples in 
both species, however. 


This bird provides yet another example of why I think that 'morph' is not a 
useful or accurate term to be used in Swainson's Hawk. Though the light (and 
most-numerous) end of the color spectrum exhibited by the species' plumage 
might be at least somewhat distinct and diagnosable, I've never been able to 
find a line between 'intermediate' and 'dark' in the species, and any line 
between 'intermediate' and 'light' is also fairly arbitrary. Less so, perhaps, 
than the other line, but still arbitrary, in my opinion. 


Respectfully,

Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 





-----Original Message-----
From: Leith McKenzie 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Tue, Dec 2, 2014 12:43 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo


Here is some thoughts/discussion about the bird with colleague Barry McKenzie.

From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  
 Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 3:14 PM
 Subject: Re: Hawk Pics
Well! This is a interesting bird.There are so many sub-types of RTHA that it 
takes a dissertation to sort them out. BWHA is simpler.Too bad you don’t have 
a 

good size reference in the photos. Remember how big that snag is? Go back and 
measure it? Ha!
I’ve been pouring over the descriptions and images in Wheeler (Raptors of 
Western North America). Haven’t entered the black hole of online research.
Overall, my impression is that this bird is most likely a juv Western, 
Intermediate form of RTHA (B. j. calurus). The bird is so dark overall, that 
subtle features are just not available. Can’t see color differences/spots on 
the 

secondaries. The narrow barring on the undertail is consistent with RTHA as 
well. The only thing against that is the apparent bright yellowish cere 
(typically “greenish” on juv B. j. calurus).
Juv BWHA should have a heavier terminal band on the tail. The yellowish cere is 

not described on BWHA that I can find…but a photo shows what appears as a 
yellowish cere — described as “pale lores”. Hmm. That’s on a juv BWHA 
of the 

“dark morph, streaked type” subspecies.
I approach the question of a rarity with caution: you gotta have unequivocal 
evidence to truely separate it from a common local species. So, this individual 

is ambiguous, but I think the bulk of evidence says RTHA.  On Nov 29, 2014, at 
3:35 PM, Leith McKenzie  wrote:
Hi Barry
I think Red-tailed is ruled out by the lack of scalloping on the upperparts (no 

v pattern) and the short primaries. Also, juvenile Red-tails are depicted with 
yellow eyes (is that the case in Wheeler) In the field, my first view of the 
bird was from the side/back with mostly the uniform dark brown upperparts 
showing, and my immediate reaction was Swainson's Hawk.  But I think that 
Swainson's is ruled out by the short primaries alone; also the white feathers 
mottling the underparts is not typical for Swainson's.  I am not confident the 
bird can be identified from the pics, and I had no other views as the bird did 
not fly.
Some of the key points are: primaries well short (~1inch) of tail tip, dark 
eyes, white feathers mixed in brown underparts, uniform dark brown upperparts.

As far as Broad-winged Hawk in Oregon goes, I think that it is recorded 
annually 

(or almost) in Oregon by the Hawk Watch folks, and I have 4 previous records.  
So it is not that Broad-winged Hawk would be that newsworthy, but a Juvenile 
Broad-winged on July 16 would pose the question of breeding for the species in 
Oregon, which is why I think the bird may be of scientific interest.
From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  

 Swainson’s, huh?A first impression can be valuable. A juv SWHA (dark morph) 
does indeed fit many of the features in your photos: - yellow cere - narrow 
banding on tail and undertail coverts
I see what you mean about the short primaries…does it make a difference that 
your photo bird was in July? Are the primaries still growing? Wheeler has 
photos 

of juv birds in Sept that show longer primaries (as you’d expect). Also: 
could 

the apparent yellow cere be a trick of the light? If it’s a true yellow 
color, 

that narrows things down to Swainson’s or Ferruginous…and the undertail 
isn’t 

right for FEHA (should be pale/plain with a weak sub-terminal band and weak 
gray 

banding). Wheeler has some photos of juv dark morph FEHA that shows a very dark 

chest/belly with just a bit of white — not as much as in your photos.
So…gee…I dunno. It sure could be SWHA, especially if the yellow cere is 
real and 

the primary length is variable in a July juv bird. I don’t think we should 
discount your real-time first impression.Although I said my vote went to 
Red-tailed earlier, now I’m not so sure. I think the photos just don’t have 

enough detail or angles.
Cool.
Barry
If it is a hatch year bird, the primaries should be fully grown.  For those of 
us in the "morphology trumps plumage camp" the fact that the primaries are well 

short of the tail tip is key.  Yep, I agree that the photos do not provide for 
me enough information, which I was hoping someone my have firsthand experience 
with birds showing similar coloration to the underparts.
Leithhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/30397515 AT N07/sets/72157649106012508/

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
|  |
|  |
| View on www.flickr.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |

 


“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull  



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 




 
 
  


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Buteo
From: Leith McKenzie <loinneilceol AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 18:41:09 +0000
Thanks for the information.
Just to be clear, the assessment that the tail tip extends ~1 inch beyond the 
end of the primaries, is based on by observation of the bird in the field with 
binoculars.  This fact is what peaked my interest in this bird in the first 
place.   




“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.” 


Jonathan Livingston Seagull
      From: Tony Leukering 
 To: loinneilceol AT yahoo.com; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 10:31 AM
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo
   
All:

I believe that this is a dark Swainson's Hawk.  My rationale follows.
 
1) We cannot accurately assess wing length, because the tips are hidden by the 
tail, though there is some suggestion that, perhaps, one wingtip barely extends 
beyond the tail tip. 


2) If a Swainson's, this bird is probably a year old or so, as fresh juveniles 
(of whatever color) have obvious pale fringing to back feathers, scapulars, and 
wing coverts that this bird lacks.  Also, the appearance of the bird's plumage 
is just too messy for the bird to be older.  That is, it lacks the smooth, 
concolorousness, particularly on the underparts, of an adult. 


3) A Red-tailed Hawk of this general coloration might be a rufous 'morph' (I'm 
not sure that this term is entirely appropriate for either Red-taileds or, 
particularly, Swainson's hawks).  If so, a juvenile of such would show obvious 
streaking below and, again, extensive pale fringing of upperparts feathers.  
If an adult, it would show a wide black belly contrasting with a dark rufous 
chest.  This bird shows neither underparts coloration/pattern, nor is the its 
coloration at all intermediate between the two, so we can rule out an immature 
rufous Red-tailed in transition to adult plumage.  If it were a dark 'morph' 
Red-tailed, it would have darker body plumage, regardless of the age.  
Finally, as noted by Leith, the bird does not sport any obvious pale coloration 
on the scapulars, which should rule out just about any form of Red-tailed Hawk. 


4) Broad-winged Hawk is a large-headed, chunky raptor that does not at all fit 
this bird's shape.  Additionally, in the 100s of 1000s of Broad-wingeds that 
I've seen, I've never seen one with anything like this coloration, and I've 
seen >130 dark Broad-wingeds. 


5) Ferruginous and Rough-legged hawks are right out, as are all of the 
southern, range-restricted buteos. 


6) There really is not a northern ABA-area buteo other than Swainson's that 
sports the somewhat-small-headed, attenuated rear-end look of the bird in 
question.  The attenuated look in Swainson's is created by the combination of 
both length (long) AND width (narrow) of the tail, as well as the shape of the 
lower end of the body.  Red-tailed Hawk has a larger, rounder head with a 
more-prominent bill and an overall appearance that can only rarely be termed 
'svelte.' 


7) Finally, though non-definitive, the barring on the bird's tail is suggestive 
of Swainson's in that the individual bars do not reach the inner edge of the 
feathers AND that the shape is somewhat suggestive of that silly 'M' pattern 
that untalented or impatient artists draw when putting flying gulls into a 
scene.  The barring on Red-taileds tends to be straight across the feather and 
reaching both edges of the feather.  There are certainly contrary examples in 
both species, however. 


This bird provides yet another example of why I think that 'morph' is not a 
useful or accurate term to be used in Swainson's Hawk.  Though the light (and 
most-numerous) end of the color spectrum exhibited by the species' plumage 
might be at least somewhat distinct and diagnosable, I've never been able to 
find a line between 'intermediate' and 'dark' in the species, and any line 
between 'intermediate' and 'light' is also fairly arbitrary.  Less so, 
perhaps, than the other line, but still arbitrary, in my opinion. 


Respectfully,

Tony
 
Tony LeukeringLargo, FL
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
http://aba.org/photoquiz/ 
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Leith McKenzie 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Tue, Dec 2, 2014 12:43 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo

Here is some thoughts/discussion about the bird with colleague Barry McKenzie.

From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  
 Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 3:14 PM
 Subject: Re: Hawk Pics
Well! This is a interesting bird.There are so many sub-types of RTHA that it 
takes a dissertation to sort them out. BWHA is simpler.Too bad you don’t have 
a 

good size reference in the photos. Remember how big that snag is? Go back and 
measure it? Ha!
I’ve been pouring over the descriptions and images in Wheeler (Raptors of 
Western North America). Haven’t entered the black hole of online research.
Overall, my impression is that this bird is most likely a juv Western, 
Intermediate form of RTHA (B. j. calurus). The bird is so dark overall, that 
subtle features are just not available. Can’t see color differences/spots on 
the 

secondaries. The narrow barring on the undertail is consistent with RTHA as 
well. The only thing against that is the apparent bright yellowish cere 
(typically “greenish” on juv B. j. calurus).
Juv BWHA should have a heavier terminal band on the tail.  The yellowish cere 
is 

not described on BWHA that I can find…but a photo shows what appears as a 
yellowish cere — described as “pale lores”. Hmm. That’s on a juv BWHA 
of the 

“dark morph, streaked type” subspecies.
I approach the question of a rarity with caution: you gotta have unequivocal 
evidence to truely separate it from a common local species. So, this 
individual 

is ambiguous, but I think the bulk of evidence says RTHA.  On Nov 29, 2014, 
at 

3:35 PM, Leith McKenzie  wrote:
Hi Barry
I think Red-tailed is ruled out by the lack of scalloping on the upperparts (no 

v pattern) and the short primaries. Also, juvenile Red-tails are depicted with 
yellow eyes (is that the case in Wheeler) In the field, my first view of the 
bird was from the side/back with mostly the uniform dark brown upperparts 
showing, and my immediate reaction was Swainson's Hawk.  But I think that 
Swainson's is ruled out by the short primaries alone; also the white feathers 
mottling the underparts is not typical for Swainson's.  I am not confident the 

bird can be identified from the pics, and I had no other views as the bird did 
not fly.
Some of the key points are: primaries well short (~1inch) of tail tip, dark 
eyes, white feathers mixed in brown underparts, uniform dark brown upperparts.

As far as Broad-winged Hawk in Oregon goes, I think that it is recorded 
annually 

(or almost) in Oregon by the Hawk Watch folks, and I have 4 previous records.  

So it is not that Broad-winged Hawk would be that newsworthy, but a Juvenile 
Broad-winged on July 16 would pose the question of breeding for the species in 
Oregon, which is why I think the bird may be of scientific interest.
From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  

 Swainson’s, huh?A first impression can be valuable. A juv SWHA (dark morph) 
does indeed fit many of the features in your photos: - yellow cere - narrow 
banding on tail and undertail coverts
I see what you mean about the short primaries…does it make a difference that 
your photo bird was in July? Are the primaries still growing? Wheeler has 
photos 

of juv birds in Sept that show longer primaries (as you’d expect). Also: 
could 

the apparent yellow cere be a trick of the light? If it’s a true yellow 
color, 

that narrows things down to Swainson’s or Ferruginous…and the undertail 
isn’t 

right for FEHA (should be pale/plain with a weak sub-terminal band and weak 
gray 

banding). Wheeler has some photos of juv dark morph FEHA that shows a very dark 

chest/belly with just a bit of white — not as much as in your photos.
So…gee…I dunno. It sure could be SWHA, especially if the yellow cere is 
real and 

the primary length is variable in a July juv bird. I don’t think we should 
discount your real-time first impression.Although I said my vote went to 
Red-tailed earlier, now I’m not so sure. I think the photos just don’t have 

enough detail or angles.
Cool.
Barry
If it is a hatch year bird, the primaries should be fully grown.  For those of 

us in the "morphology trumps plumage camp" the fact that the primaries are well 

short of the tail tip is key.  Yep, I agree that the photos do not provide for 

me enough information, which I was hoping someone my have firsthand experience 
with birds showing similar coloration to the underparts.
Leithhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/30397515 AT N07/sets/72157649106012508/

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
|  |
|  |
| View on www.flickr.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |

 


“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull  



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 

  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Buteo
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 13:31:21 -0500
All:

I believe that this is a dark Swainson's Hawk.  My rationale follows.

 
1) We cannot accurately assess wing length, because the tips are hidden by the 
tail, though there is some suggestion that, perhaps, one wingtip barely extends 
beyond the tail tip. 


2) If a Swainson's, this bird is probably a year old or so, as fresh juveniles 
(of whatever color) have obvious pale fringing to back feathers, scapulars, and 
wing coverts that this bird lacks. Also, the appearance of the bird's plumage 
is just too messy for the bird to be older. That is, it lacks the smooth, 
concolorousness, particularly on the underparts, of an adult. 


3) A Red-tailed Hawk of this general coloration might be a rufous 'morph' (I'm 
not sure that this term is entirely appropriate for either Red-taileds or, 
particularly, Swainson's hawks). If so, a juvenile of such would show obvious 
streaking below and, again, extensive pale fringing of upperparts feathers. If 
an adult, it would show a wide black belly contrasting with a dark rufous 
chest. This bird shows neither underparts coloration/pattern, nor is the its 
coloration at all intermediate between the two, so we can rule out an immature 
rufous Red-tailed in transition to adult plumage. If it were a dark 'morph' 
Red-tailed, it would have darker body plumage, regardless of the age. Finally, 
as noted by Leith, the bird does not sport any obvious pale coloration on the 
scapulars, which should rule out just about any form of Red-tailed Hawk. 


4) Broad-winged Hawk is a large-headed, chunky raptor that does not at all fit 
this bird's shape. Additionally, in the 100s of 1000s of Broad-wingeds that 
I've seen, I've never seen one with anything like this coloration, and I've 
seen >130 dark Broad-wingeds. 


5) Ferruginous and Rough-legged hawks are right out, as are all of the 
southern, range-restricted buteos. 


6) There really is not a northern ABA-area buteo other than Swainson's that 
sports the somewhat-small-headed, attenuated rear-end look of the bird in 
question. The attenuated look in Swainson's is created by the combination of 
both length (long) AND width (narrow) of the tail, as well as the shape of the 
lower end of the body. Red-tailed Hawk has a larger, rounder head with a 
more-prominent bill and an overall appearance that can only rarely be termed 
'svelte.' 


7) Finally, though non-definitive, the barring on the bird's tail is suggestive 
of Swainson's in that the individual bars do not reach the inner edge of the 
feathers AND that the shape is somewhat suggestive of that silly 'M' pattern 
that untalented or impatient artists draw when putting flying gulls into a 
scene. The barring on Red-taileds tends to be straight across the feather and 
reaching both edges of the feather. There are certainly contrary examples in 
both species, however. 


This bird provides yet another example of why I think that 'morph' is not a 
useful or accurate term to be used in Swainson's Hawk. Though the light (and 
most-numerous) end of the color spectrum exhibited by the species' plumage 
might be at least somewhat distinct and diagnosable, I've never been able to 
find a line between 'intermediate' and 'dark' in the species, and any line 
between 'intermediate' and 'light' is also fairly arbitrary. Less so, perhaps, 
than the other line, but still arbitrary, in my opinion. 


Respectfully,

Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Leith McKenzie 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Tue, Dec 2, 2014 12:43 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo


Here is some thoughts/discussion about the bird with colleague Barry McKenzie.

From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  
 Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 3:14 PM
 Subject: Re: Hawk Pics
Well! This is a interesting bird.There are so many sub-types of RTHA that it 
takes a dissertation to sort them out. BWHA is simpler.Too bad you don’t have 
a 

good size reference in the photos. Remember how big that snag is? Go back and 
measure it? Ha!
I’ve been pouring over the descriptions and images in Wheeler (Raptors of 
Western North America). Haven’t entered the black hole of online research.
Overall, my impression is that this bird is most likely a juv Western, 
Intermediate form of RTHA (B. j. calurus). The bird is so dark overall, that 
subtle features are just not available. Can’t see color differences/spots on 
the 

secondaries. The narrow barring on the undertail is consistent with RTHA as 
well. The only thing against that is the apparent bright yellowish cere 
(typically “greenish” on juv B. j. calurus).
Juv BWHA should have a heavier terminal band on the tail. The yellowish cere is 

not described on BWHA that I can find…but a photo shows what appears as a 
yellowish cere — described as “pale lores”. Hmm. That’s on a juv BWHA 
of the 

“dark morph, streaked type” subspecies.
I approach the question of a rarity with caution: you gotta have unequivocal 
evidence to truely separate it from a common local species. So, this individual 

is ambiguous, but I think the bulk of evidence says RTHA.  On Nov 29, 2014, at 
3:35 PM, Leith McKenzie  wrote:
Hi Barry
I think Red-tailed is ruled out by the lack of scalloping on the upperparts (no 

v pattern) and the short primaries. Also, juvenile Red-tails are depicted with 
yellow eyes (is that the case in Wheeler) In the field, my first view of the 
bird was from the side/back with mostly the uniform dark brown upperparts 
showing, and my immediate reaction was Swainson's Hawk.  But I think that 
Swainson's is ruled out by the short primaries alone; also the white feathers 
mottling the underparts is not typical for Swainson's.  I am not confident the 
bird can be identified from the pics, and I had no other views as the bird did 
not fly.
Some of the key points are: primaries well short (~1inch) of tail tip, dark 
eyes, white feathers mixed in brown underparts, uniform dark brown upperparts.

As far as Broad-winged Hawk in Oregon goes, I think that it is recorded 
annually 

(or almost) in Oregon by the Hawk Watch folks, and I have 4 previous records.  
So it is not that Broad-winged Hawk would be that newsworthy, but a Juvenile 
Broad-winged on July 16 would pose the question of breeding for the species in 
Oregon, which is why I think the bird may be of scientific interest.
From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  

 Swainson’s, huh?A first impression can be valuable. A juv SWHA (dark morph) 
does indeed fit many of the features in your photos: - yellow cere - narrow 
banding on tail and undertail coverts
I see what you mean about the short primaries…does it make a difference that 
your photo bird was in July? Are the primaries still growing? Wheeler has 
photos 

of juv birds in Sept that show longer primaries (as you’d expect). Also: 
could 

the apparent yellow cere be a trick of the light? If it’s a true yellow 
color, 

that narrows things down to Swainson’s or Ferruginous…and the undertail 
isn’t 

right for FEHA (should be pale/plain with a weak sub-terminal band and weak 
gray 

banding). Wheeler has some photos of juv dark morph FEHA that shows a very dark 

chest/belly with just a bit of white — not as much as in your photos.
So…gee…I dunno. It sure could be SWHA, especially if the yellow cere is 
real and 

the primary length is variable in a July juv bird. I don’t think we should 
discount your real-time first impression.Although I said my vote went to 
Red-tailed earlier, now I’m not so sure. I think the photos just don’t have 

enough detail or angles.
Cool.
Barry
If it is a hatch year bird, the primaries should be fully grown.  For those of 
us in the "morphology trumps plumage camp" the fact that the primaries are well 

short of the tail tip is key.  Yep, I agree that the photos do not provide for 
me enough information, which I was hoping someone my have firsthand experience 
with birds showing similar coloration to the underparts.
Leithhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/30397515 AT N07/sets/72157649106012508/

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
|  |
|  |
| View on www.flickr.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |

 


“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull  



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Buteo
From: Leith McKenzie <loinneilceol AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 17:31:57 +0000
Here is some thoughts/discussion about the bird with colleague Barry McKenzie.

From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  
 Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 3:14 PM
 Subject: Re: Hawk Pics
Well! This is a interesting bird.There are so many sub-types of RTHA that it 
takes a dissertation to sort them out. BWHA is simpler.Too bad you don’t have 
a good size reference in the photos. Remember how big that snag is? Go back and 
measure it? Ha! 

I’ve been pouring over the descriptions and images in Wheeler (Raptors of 
Western North America). Haven’t entered the black hole of online research. 

Overall, my impression is that this bird is most likely a juv Western, 
Intermediate form of RTHA (B. j. calurus). The bird is so dark overall, that 
subtle features are just not available. Can’t see color differences/spots on 
the secondaries. The narrow barring on the undertail is consistent with RTHA as 
well. The only thing against that is the apparent bright yellowish cere 
(typically “greenish” on juv B. j. calurus). 

Juv BWHA should have a heavier terminal band on the tail.  The yellowish cere 
is not described on BWHA that I can find…but a photo shows what appears as a 
yellowish cere — described as “pale lores”. Hmm. That’s on a juv BWHA 
of the “dark morph, streaked type” subspecies. 

I approach the question of a rarity with caution: you gotta have unequivocal 
evidence to truely separate it from a common local species. So, this 
individual is ambiguous, but I think the bulk of evidence says RTHA.  On Nov 
29, 2014, at 3:35 PM, Leith McKenzie  wrote: 

Hi Barry
I think Red-tailed is ruled out by the lack of scalloping on the upperparts (no 
v pattern) and the short primaries. Also, juvenile Red-tails are depicted with 
yellow eyes (is that the case in Wheeler) In the field, my first view of the 
bird was from the side/back with mostly the uniform dark brown upperparts 
showing, and my immediate reaction was Swainson's Hawk.  But I think that 
Swainson's is ruled out by the short primaries alone; also the white feathers 
mottling the underparts is not typical for Swainson's.  I am not confident the 
bird can be identified from the pics, and I had no other views as the bird did 
not fly. 

Some of the key points are: primaries well short (~1inch) of tail tip, dark 
eyes, white feathers mixed in brown underparts, uniform dark brown upperparts. 


As far as Broad-winged Hawk in Oregon goes, I think that it is recorded 
annually (or almost) in Oregon by the Hawk Watch folks, and I have 4 previous 
records.  So it is not that Broad-winged Hawk would be that newsworthy, but a 
Juvenile Broad-winged on July 16 would pose the question of breeding for the 
species in Oregon, which is why I think the bird may be of scientific interest. 

From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  

 Swainson’s, huh?A first impression can be valuable. A juv SWHA (dark morph) 
does indeed fit many of the features in your photos: - yellow cere - narrow 
banding on tail and undertail coverts 

I see what you mean about the short primaries…does it make a difference that 
your photo bird was in July? Are the primaries still growing? Wheeler has 
photos of juv birds in Sept that show longer primaries (as you’d 
expect). Also: could the apparent yellow cere be a trick of the light? If 
it’s a true yellow color, that narrows things down to Swainson’s or 
Ferruginous…and the undertail isn’t right for FEHA (should be pale/plain 
with a weak sub-terminal band and weak gray banding). Wheeler has some photos 
of juv dark morph FEHA that shows a very dark chest/belly with just a bit of 
white — not as much as in your photos. 

So…gee…I dunno. It sure could be SWHA, especially if the yellow cere is 
real and the primary length is variable in a July juv bird. I don’t think we 
should discount your real-time first impression.Although I said my vote went to 
Red-tailed earlier, now I’m not so sure. I think the photos just don’t have 
enough detail or angles. 

Cool.
Barry
If it is a hatch year bird, the primaries should be fully grown.  For those of 
us in the "morphology trumps plumage camp" the fact that the primaries are well 
short of the tail tip is key.  Yep, I agree that the photos do not provide for 
me enough information, which I was hoping someone my have firsthand experience 
with birds showing similar coloration to the underparts. 

Leithhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/30397515 AT N07/sets/72157649106012508/

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“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.” 


Jonathan Livingston Seagull  



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.” 


Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Haemorhous finch ID
From: Derek Hill <kinglet32 AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 04:48:05 +0000
ID Frontiers,

Just the day before Kurt's post on finch ID, I sent out emails to some folks 
regarding exactly the same "potential" field mark I had noticed.  In fact I 
posted to COBirds (Colorado) that day titled "Haemorhous finch ID" - so I was 
definitely piqued to see Kurt's identically titled post, with the same field 
mark, on ID Frontiers whilst browsing the listservs tonight! 


12 Nov. - Colorado - Bryan Guarente posted to COBirds about a possible Purple 
Finch (PUFI) in Boulder, Colorado, where Cassin's Finch (CAFI) would be 
"expected" and PUFI would be rare. 


16 Nov. - Texas - Mary Beth Stowe, Sherry & Dick Wilson, Dan Jones, et. al. 
report a possible Cassin's Finch from the Rio Grande Valley of south Texas, 
where both CAFI and PUFI would be odd, but I'd think PUFI would be "more 
likely." 


Interesting to see CAFI and PUFI being reported in their atypical ranges within 
a small time frame. What are the odds I'd share a field mark that I have not 
read about a day before another fellow shares the same idea? Maybe we will both 
be proven wrong, but I do feel it's got potential. I do feel the TX bird is 
CAFI and the CO bird is PUFI. 


Colorado "PUFI"
Bryan Guarente:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dafekt1ve/15588523669/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dafekt1ve/15772478681/in/photostream/

Texas "CAFI"
Mary Beth Stowe:

http://miriameaglemon.com/photo_gallery/2014%20Field%20Trips/November/Resaca%20de%20la%20Palma%20SP.html 

Robert Becker:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13451078 AT N03/15629789078/in/set-72157649012672712

---------------------------------
An email I sent out 23 nov. to some folks pertaining to the Texas bird:

"Hey guys,
I've been following the finch excitement on Texbirds while also looking for 
these finches in Colorado. Now I certainly ain't an expert on Haemorhous 
finches but I've seen eastern PUFI and have had a few encounters with CAFI in 
Colorado with some good up close study and photo ops last winter. I think the 
TX bird is a Cassin's for a few reasons. 


Also a few days before the Texas bird was reported, in the midst of the snowy 
cold snap we all experienced and with Cassin's Finches, Pine Grosbeaks, etc 
being reported at lower elevations than normal even in winter here in Colorado, 
a fellow in the foothills of northern Colorado reported a Purple Finch at his 
feeder hanging out with House Finches. Cassin's is the expected bird and Purple 
is a rarity.  I looked at the two photos and thought it looked "ok" for 
CAFI.  Now it seems most people agree it's a PUFI and I think the PUFI  ID is 
probably correct!  The CO bird made me think a little more of this ID issue, 
hence excitement about this TX bird. 


Also Barrett Pierce reported 3 Cassin's Finches 25 Oct. at Palo Duro Canyon 
SP.   Chris Runk reported 5+ Cassin's in the Guads 28-29 Oct. so they look 
like they're on the move. Probably a lot of finches of various species were on 
the move with the continent wide cold snap we had. Look out for Bramblings 


pro Cassin's for Texas bird,

- facial pattern intensity.  IMHO female/imm Cassin's and Purple plumage are 
equally 'striking' in the facial striping. 

- crisp narrow streaks above and below good for CAFI
- warm highlights of rusty auriculars and buffy malar were one of the main 
things I noticed studying CAFI at close range, and appear to match TX bird.  
This gold vs gray contrast seemed subtle but consistent in Colorado Cassin's 
throughout the upperparts. Rust in the lower cheek and gold in the anterior 2/3 
of the malar and sometimes supercilium, gold/rusty wash to some of the wing 
coverts contrasting with gray in the collar and upper mantle.  CAFI's warmer 
face and rusty cheeks even reminded me of a very subtle Little Bunting giss.  
Basically the center of warm tones on CAFI was on the face, and some in the 
wing, while on PUFI it may be on the mantle or generally lacking 'gold/rust' 
highlights in general. PUFI being more evenly colored throughout and with 
thicker duller dark streaking above and below. 

- bill looks good for CAFI
- pale eye crescents


Colorado "PUFI"
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dafekt1ve/15772478681/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dafekt1ve/15588523669/in/photostream/

Texas "CAFI"

http://miriameaglemon.com/photo_gallery/2014%20Field%20Trips/November/Resaca%20de%20la%20Palma%20SP.html 

 
I have a series of Cassin's Finch photos I can post on flickr when I get a 
chance.   I think they're a good match with the TX bird. 


Good birding,
Derek Hill
Fort Collins, CO"
------------------------------


 An email I sent out to a fellow Colorado birder pertaining to the same 
situation: 


"Thanks for the only reply I've received so far. Your photos are an excellent 
resource, and support what I thought about darker, blurrier streak-wise in PUFI 
vs narrower, crisper streaks in CAFI and hence more room for paleness, if that 
makes any sense. Plus bill shape etc etc. 


Last February Josh Bruening and I headed uphill to check Scott Rashid's feeders 
in Estes Park for rosy-finches. We dipped on rosies (found them later in the 
day at Fawn Brook Inn) but had excellent up close study of dozens of CAFI, 
alongside PISI, HOFI, EVGR.  Took a decent series of photos of these finches 
as well, and one thing that really seemed to stand out was the coloration of 
the fem/imm CAFIs.  A majority of them showed subtle but consistent rufous 
tones to their auriculars.  And some gold wash to the anterior 1/3 or 2/3 of 
the pale malar.  And lack of buff on the sides/flanks.  Seems to me that PUFI 
lacks the rufous cheeks and shows the same shade of brown as the rest of the 
upperparts. Also some PUFIs seem to have a buff wash to malar, but these buffy 
birds also might tend to show the buff on sides/flanks as well.   Now this is 
based on a pretty small sample and limited experience but an outstanding 
feature of these CAFIs I've studied and photographed tend towards a 'colorful 
face' that PUFI lacks. 


Good birding,
Derek"
----------------






Also I have posted a series of finch photos that I took 8 February 2014, 
Larimer County, Colorado, the day I enjoyed dozens of CAFI and noticed the 
'gold/rust' wash to their faces! 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/26102738 AT N07/

Curious to hear others' input on a potential field mark,

Derek Hill
Fort Collins, CO


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Buteo
From: Leith McKenzie <loinneilceol AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 00:47:28 +0000
This Hawk was observed on Horsefly Mountain, Oregon on July 16, 2014. Key ID 
points are: the extension of the wing tips is well short of the extension of 
the tail and the eyes are dark, the colors in the photo are accurate. Can this 
be identified to species with certainty? What about age, I think the tail 
suggests that it is an immature. Thanks. Leith 

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/30397515 AT N07/sets/72157649106012508/
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“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.” 


Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: DNA Analysis -- contamination?
From: Chris Corben <cjcorben AT HOARYBAT.COM>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 14:01:01 -0600
Any sample of human DNA will be contaminated by all sorts of other 
things. Most of the cells in our bodies are actually bacteria! It is not 
a problem, as the genetics people have ways of dealing with such things. 
Otherwise a cheek swab would be completely useless.

Cheers, Chris.

On 11/26/2014 1:03 PM, Noah Arthur wrote:
> Hi. So I'm probably going to try to get that gull poop sample DNA'ed. But
> I've found out that I probably "contaminated" it with tiny insect parts by
> touching it with a paper towel that had crumbled insect parts in it. Will
> this ruin the sample?
>
> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>


-- 

Chris Corben.

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: DNA Analysis -- contamination?
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:03:37 -0600
Hi. So I'm probably going to try to get that gull poop sample DNA'ed. But
I've found out that I probably "contaminated" it with tiny insect parts by
touching it with a paper towel that had crumbled insect parts in it. Will
this ruin the sample?

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html