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Updated on Thursday, July 2 at 03:08 PM EST
The most recently received Mail is at the top.


Snow Geese,©BirdQuest

2 Jul Re: Minnesota Tropical Kingbird [Peter Pyle ]
2 Jul Minnesota Tropical Kingbird ["R.D. Everhart" ]
2 Jul Re: Mystery Kingbird in Ontario [Jacob Socolar ]
1 Jul Re: Mystery Kingbird in Ontario [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
1 Jul Re: Mystery Kingbird in Ontario [Brian Sullivan ]
1 Jul Re: Mystery Kingbird in Ontario ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
1 Jul Mystery Kingbird in Ontario [Alan Wormington ]
1 Jul Mystery San Diego Seabird [Kenny Frisch ]
30 Jun Re: Mystery Hawk in the CA Central Valley []
30 Jun Re: Mystery Hawk in the CA Central Valley [David Irons ]
30 Jun Mystery Hawk in the CA Central Valley [Noah Arthur ]
28 Jun Re: reported Gull-billed Tern in the UK [Tristan McKee ]
28 Jun Re: reported Gull-billed Tern in the UK [James Barton ]
17 Jun east coast dowitcher []
15 Jun reported Gull-billed Tern in the UK [Alex Lees ]
12 Jun Re: help with possible LBDO identification on east coast [Suzanne Sullivan ]
12 Jun Re: help with possible LBDO identification on east coast [Jean Iron ]
12 Jun Re: help with possible LBDO identification on east coast ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
12 Jun help with possible LBDO identification on east coast [Suzanne Sullivan ]
5 Jun Re: Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right? [Ken Blankenship ]
4 Jun Re: Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right? [Steve Hampton ]
4 Jun Re: Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right? [Mark B Bartosik ]
5 Jun Re: Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right? ["Glenn d'Entremont" ]
4 Jun Re: Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right? [Amar Ayyash ]
5 Jun Re: Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right? ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
4 Jun Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right? [Ken Blankenship ]
3 Jun ADMIN Request [Chuck Otte ]
21 May Puzzling heron in Florida [Rex Rowan ]
14 May Re: Yellow-bellied vs. Western flycatchers [Ted Floyd ]
14 May Re: Passerina Buntings [Ted Floyd ]
14 May Re: Yellow-bellied vs. Western flycatchers ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
14 May Re: Yellow-bellied vs. Western flycatchers ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
14 May Re: Yellow-bellied vs. Western flycatchers [Ted Floyd ]
10 May Re: Lone Swan help [Matthew G Hunter ]
1 May Progress on a Birders Digital Identification Manual ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]
30 Apr Re: Lone Swan help [Matthew G Hunter ]
29 Apr Lone Swan help [Matthew G Hunter ]
28 Apr Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Ten Years of Foolishness [Richard Carlson ]
28 Apr Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Ten Years of Foolishness [Don Richardson ]
28 Apr Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Ten Years of Foolishness [Bartelby Murray ]
28 Apr Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Ten Years of Foolishness ["Michael D. Collins" ]
25 Apr Possible LIEG X SNEG Hybrid [Harvey Tomlinson ]
18 Apr Re: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – A... [Mark B Bartosik ]
18 Apr Re: paper on hybrids in Mexico - Terns that is [Mark B Bartosik ]
18 Apr Re: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – A... [Mark B Bartosik ]
17 Apr paper on hybrids in Mexico - Terns that is [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
17 Apr Re: Presumably 2 Caye nne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – A... [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
18 Apr Re: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – A... [Mark B Bartosik ]
17 Apr Non Breeding [Timothy Reeves ]
17 Apr Re: Cayenne Terns [Shaibal Mitra ]
17 Apr photos of Cayenne Terns from Brazil [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
17 Apr Re: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – A... [Mark B Bartosik ]
17 Apr A marginal record of Cayenne Tern [Ian McLaren ]
17 Apr Re: Presumably 2 Caye nne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – April 9, 2015 –Texa s [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
17 Apr Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrid s) [Reid Martin ]
17 Apr Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – April 9, 2015 –Texas [Mark B Bartosik ]
16 Apr Re: Mew Gull in Connecticut [Steve Hampton ]
16 Apr Mew Gull in Connecticut [Nick Bonomo ]
10 Apr Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office. [Paul Wood ]
9 Apr Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Amar Ayyash ]
9 Apr Re: Colorado LBBG - correction [Bruce Mactavish ]
9 Apr Re: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland [Amar Ayyash ]
9 Apr Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Doug Faulkner ]
9 Apr Re: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland [Jean Iron ]
9 Apr Re: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland [Peter Pyle ]
9 Apr L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland [Kirk Zufelt ]
9 Apr Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Phil Davis ]
9 Apr Re: Colorado LBBG - correction [Angus Wilson ]
9 Apr Re: Colorado LBBG - correction [Reid Martin ]
9 Apr Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Reid Martin ]
9 Apr Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Suzanne Sullivan ]
9 Apr Re: Phoenix, AZ mystery dove [Peter Wilkinson ]
9 Apr Re: Phoenix, AZ mystery dove [Noah Arthur ]
8 Apr Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Paul Pisano ]
8 Apr Phoenix, AZ mystery dove [Noah Arthur ]
8 Apr Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Reid Martin ]

Subject: Re: Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 12:57:07 -0700
I'm not certain of this, but it seems both the Minnesota and the 
Ontario kingbirds may be on molt cycles reflecting an Austral rather 
than a Boreal breeding and migrating populations. The Minnesota bird 
is completing a molt and I thought that the Ontario bird may still 
have juvenile outer rectrices and outer primary (but not worn enough 
to be a year old). Better photos of each, with open wings and tails, 
would help determine molt progression and age. For northern Tropical 
Kingbirds (occidentalis) we would expect to see molt patterns like 
this in Nov-Dec on the winter grounds (both preformative and 
prebasic) and not June. Something to consider when encountering and 
documenting summer kingbirds in North America.

Peter

At 10:59 AM 7/2/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
>Hey everyone-
>
>     I went out to chase the Tropical Kingbird that has been seen at
>Murphy-Hanrahan Park south of Minneapolis/St. Paul and got a few
>photos that I have posted here:
>
>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
>
>    The bird was seen off and on between about 7 am and 9:30 am. It
>did not vocalize while I was there.
>
>Roger Everhart
>Apple Valley, MN
>
>
>
>
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
From: "R.D. Everhart" <everhart AT BLACK-HOLE.COM>
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 12:59:22 -0500
Hey everyone-

    I went out to chase the Tropical Kingbird that has been seen at
Murphy-Hanrahan Park south of Minneapolis/St. Paul and got a few
photos that I have posted here:

http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com

   The bird was seen off and on between about 7 am and 9:30 am. It
did not vocalize while I was there.

Roger Everhart
Apple Valley, MN



   

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Kingbird in Ontario
From: Jacob Socolar <jacob.socolar AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 00:53:22 -0400
For what it's worth, this bird strikes me as large-billed, heavyset, and
dark headed for White-throated Kingbird.  However, if this were within
range for both Tropical and White-throated, I would hesitate to rule
White-throated out, because photos can create misleading impressions of
these characters.  One mark that might actually support White-throated is
the clean lemon-yellow chest, with no olive or dusky smudging.  Combined
with structure, this is a strong and reasonably reliable confirmatory mark,
at least when differentiating resident Tropicals and nonbreeding
White-throateds in Peru.

Cheers
Jacob Socolar

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo 
wrote:

> Nick,
>    The southern hemisphere population is highly migratory. In fact it is
> the
> most migratory of all Tropical Kingbirds, the migration is similar to that
> of Fork-tailed Flycatcher although they do not winter as far north. If you
> had a grossly overshooting bird, it could wind up in the Eastern US/Canada
> during May-June.
>
> Regards,
> Alvaro
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Lethaby, Nick
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 3:57 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Kingbird in Ontario
>
> I would tend to agree that the bill looks short for the TKs we see in CA in
> fall (and in most of W. Mexico). However, I would guess there are multiple
> subspecies of TK and one in ON in fall might be some other one. I recall
> some of the TKs I saw in Chiapas this winter looked rather different to
> birds further N.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Wormington
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 1:55 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Kingbird in Ontario
>
> MYSTERY KINGBIRD IN ONTARIO
>
> On June 27 a silent Tropical/Couch's type kingbird was photographed by
> David
> White while kayaking around Upper Duck Island  in the Ottawa River at
> Ottawa, Ontario.  There are apparently only three photos in total, all of
> which can be seen here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod
>
> Originally there was a general consensus that the bill looked too short for
> Tropical Kingbird.  However, several measurements made from the photos
> actually indicate that Tropical Kingbird seems like the most likely
> species.
> Measurements made included (1) short primary extension; (2)
> culmen/wing ratio; and (3) tail fork versus bill length.  Even so, the
> person making these measurements indicated that they should not be
> considered definitive due to only (3) photos being available for analysis.
>
> It was suggested that White-throated Kingbird (Tyrannus albogularis) should
> also be considered, since that species is a partial east-west migrant
> within
> South America.
>
> Any opinions on this bird would be most welcome.
>
> Alan Wormington
> Leamington, Ontario
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Kingbird in Ontario
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 19:19:10 -0700
Nick, 
   The southern hemisphere population is highly migratory. In fact it is the
most migratory of all Tropical Kingbirds, the migration is similar to that
of Fork-tailed Flycatcher although they do not winter as far north. If you
had a grossly overshooting bird, it could wind up in the Eastern US/Canada
during May-June. 

Regards, 
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Lethaby, Nick
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 3:57 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Kingbird in Ontario

I would tend to agree that the bill looks short for the TKs we see in CA in
fall (and in most of W. Mexico). However, I would guess there are multiple
subspecies of TK and one in ON in fall might be some other one. I recall
some of the TKs I saw in Chiapas this winter looked rather different to
birds further N.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Wormington
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 1:55 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Kingbird in Ontario

MYSTERY KINGBIRD IN ONTARIO

On June 27 a silent Tropical/Couch's type kingbird was photographed by David
White while kayaking around Upper Duck Island  in the Ottawa River at
Ottawa, Ontario.  There are apparently only three photos in total, all of
which can be seen here:

http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod

Originally there was a general consensus that the bill looked too short for
Tropical Kingbird.  However, several measurements made from the photos
actually indicate that Tropical Kingbird seems like the most likely species.
Measurements made included (1) short primary extension; (2)
culmen/wing ratio; and (3) tail fork versus bill length.  Even so, the
person making these measurements indicated that they should not be
considered definitive due to only (3) photos being available for analysis.

It was suggested that White-throated Kingbird (Tyrannus albogularis) should
also be considered, since that species is a partial east-west migrant within
South America.

Any opinions on this bird would be most welcome.

Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Kingbird in Ontario
From: Brian Sullivan <heraldpetrel AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 16:20:41 -0700
Alan

I'm not sure this is identifiable as one or the other based on these
images, but for what it's worth (not much), the GISS of this bird suggests
Tropical over Couch's to me. The bill looks big and the tail is loosely
held with a deep notch.

Thanks

Brian

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Alan Wormington  wrote:

> MYSTERY KINGBIRD IN ONTARIO
>
> On June 27 a silent Tropical/Couch's type kingbird was photographed by
> David White while kayaking around Upper Duck Island  in the Ottawa River at
> Ottawa, Ontario.  There are apparently only three photos in total, all of
> which can be seen here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod
>
> Originally there was a general consensus that the bill looked too short
> for Tropical Kingbird.  However, several measurements made from the photos
> actually indicate that Tropical Kingbird seems like the most likely
> species.  Measurements made included (1) short primary extension;
> (2) culmen/wing ratio; and (3) tail fork versus bill length.  Even so, the
> person making these measurements indicated that they should not be
> considered definitive due to only (3) photos being available for analysis.
>
> It was suggested that White-throated Kingbird (Tyrannus albogularis)
> should also be considered, since that species is a partial east-west
> migrant within South America.
>
> Any opinions on this bird would be most welcome.
>
> Alan Wormington
> Leamington, Ontario
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
-------------------------------

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Kingbird in Ontario
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 22:57:27 +0000
I would tend to agree that the bill looks short for the TKs we see in CA in 
fall (and in most of W. Mexico). However, I would guess there are multiple 
subspecies of TK and one in ON in fall might be some other one. I recall some 
of the TKs I saw in Chiapas this winter looked rather different to birds 
further N. 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Wormington 

Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 1:55 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Kingbird in Ontario

MYSTERY KINGBIRD IN ONTARIO

On June 27 a silent Tropical/Couch's type kingbird was photographed by David 
White while kayaking around Upper Duck Island in the Ottawa River at Ottawa, 
Ontario. There are apparently only three photos in total, all of which can be 
seen here: 


http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod

Originally there was a general consensus that the bill looked too short for 
Tropical Kingbird. However, several measurements made from the photos actually 
indicate that Tropical Kingbird seems like the most likely species. 
Measurements made included (1) short primary extension; (2) culmen/wing 
ratio; and (3) tail fork versus bill length. Even so, the person making these 
measurements indicated that they should not be considered definitive due to 
only (3) photos being available for analysis. 


It was suggested that White-throated Kingbird (Tyrannus albogularis) should 
also be considered, since that species is a partial east-west migrant within 
South America. 


Any opinions on this bird would be most welcome.

Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Mystery Kingbird in Ontario
From: Alan Wormington <wormington AT JUNO.COM>
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 20:55:05 GMT
MYSTERY KINGBIRD IN ONTARIO

On June 27 a silent Tropical/Couch's type kingbird was photographed by David 
White while kayaking around Upper Duck Island in the Ottawa River at Ottawa, 
Ontario. There are apparently only three photos in total, all of which can be 
seen here: 


http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod

Originally there was a general consensus that the bill looked too short for 
Tropical Kingbird. However, several measurements made from the photos actually 
indicate that Tropical Kingbird seems like the most likely species. 
Measurements made included (1) short primary extension; (2) culmen/wing 
ratio; and (3) tail fork versus bill length. Even so, the person making these 
measurements indicated that they should not be considered definitive due to 
only (3) photos being available for analysis. 


It was suggested that White-throated Kingbird (Tyrannus albogularis) should 
also be considered, since that species is a partial east-west migrant within 
South America. 


Any opinions on this bird would be most welcome.

Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Mystery San Diego Seabird
From: Kenny Frisch <kefka12383 AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 00:07:27 -0500
Hey all, 

I encountered this mystery seabird on June 29th on a whale watching trip
about 6 miles out of San Diego. I was wondering if this was just a funky
fulmar or something else entirely. Thanks in advance for the help.

https://flic.kr/p/vqhBhN
https://flic.kr/p/vovQNW

Good birding, 

Kenny Frisch
SLC, UT

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Hawk in the CA Central Valley
From: whoffman AT PEAK.ORG
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 12:40:56 -0700
Hi - 

I agree with David, but also suggest the tail may not be fully grown at this 
date. The juvenal rectrices should grow pretty much simultaneously, so the tail 
would show approximately the right relative feather lengths, just not be as 
long. 


Wayne 


From: "David Irons"  
To: "BIRDWG01"  
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:29:42 AM 
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Hawk in the CA Central Valley 

Why isn't this a juvenile Cooper's Hawk. The tail appears to extend well beyond 
the tips of the wings and the tail pattern is perfect for that species. The 
pattern of streaking on the underparts–heavy on the breast and becoming more 
sparse on the belly–also fits a young Cooper's Hawk. The supercilium seems a 
bit more conspicuous than normal for a Cooper's, but I can't see how this is 
any other raptor species. No Buteo that would be even remotely expected in the 
CV shows a tail pattern with alternating dark and pale bands of equal width. 
Red-shouldereds have broad dark bands and narrower pale or white bands. The 
tail pattern of Swainson's is nothing like this. I think the viewing angle 
makes the bird look more plump and short-tailed than it is. Perched raptors 
tend to be pretty plastic in shape. 


Dave Irons 
Portland, OR 

> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 01:20:43 -0500 
> From: semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM 
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Hawk in the CA Central Valley 
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
> 
> Today I found a most unusual small buteo perched in a Valley oak at a 
> riverside park in Ripon, CA (in the Central Valley). The underparts look 
> much too plain for even a juvenile elegans Red-shouldered, but the white 
> spots on the back do seem to suggest Red-shouldered. I was leaning toward 
> juv Swainson's at first, but the tail is too heavily barred. This is 
> probably the most confounding hawk I've ever seen... 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157655239565042 
> 
> There were numerous smallish white poops under the hawk's tree, along with 
> a couple pieces of dead birds, and there was a flimsy-looking stick 
> structure that might have been the hawk's nest near the top of the tree. So 
> this bird might have been hanging around a nest site, whatever it is... 
> 
> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA 
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Hawk in the CA Central Valley
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 07:29:42 +0000
Why isn't this a juvenile Cooper's Hawk. The tail appears to extend well beyond 
the tips of the wings and the tail pattern is perfect for that species. The 
pattern of streaking on the underpartsheavy on the breast and becoming more 
sparse on the bellyalso fits a young Cooper's Hawk. The supercilium seems a 
bit more conspicuous than normal for a Cooper's, but I can't see how this is 
any other raptor species. No Buteo that would be even remotely expected in the 
CV shows a tail pattern with alternating dark and pale bands of equal width. 
Red-shouldereds have broad dark bands and narrower pale or white bands. The 
tail pattern of Swainson's is nothing like this. I think the viewing angle 
makes the bird look more plump and short-tailed than it is. Perched raptors 
tend to be pretty plastic in shape. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR 

> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 01:20:43 -0500
> From: semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Hawk in the CA Central Valley
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Today I found a most unusual small buteo perched in a Valley oak at a
> riverside park in Ripon, CA (in the Central Valley). The underparts look
> much too plain for even a juvenile elegans Red-shouldered, but the white
> spots on the back do seem to suggest Red-shouldered. I was leaning toward
> juv Swainson's at first, but the tail is too heavily barred. This is
> probably the most confounding hawk I've ever seen...
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157655239565042
> 
> There were numerous smallish white poops under the hawk's tree, along with
> a couple pieces of dead birds, and there was a flimsy-looking stick
> structure that might have been the hawk's nest near the top of the tree. So
> this bird might have been hanging around a nest site, whatever it is...
> 
> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Mystery Hawk in the CA Central Valley
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 01:20:43 -0500
Today I found a most unusual small buteo perched in a Valley oak at a
riverside park in Ripon, CA (in the Central Valley). The underparts look
much too plain for even a juvenile elegans Red-shouldered, but the white
spots on the back do seem to suggest Red-shouldered. I was leaning toward
juv Swainson's at first, but the tail is too heavily barred. This is
probably the most confounding hawk I've ever seen...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157655239565042

There were numerous smallish white poops under the hawk's tree, along with
a couple pieces of dead birds, and there was a flimsy-looking stick
structure that might have been the hawk's nest near the top of the tree. So
this bird might have been hanging around a nest site, whatever it is...

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: reported Gull-billed Tern in the UK
From: Tristan McKee <atmckee AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 20:02:30 -0700
I believe these are all of the same bird:

http://ybleague.blogspot.com/

http://www.nottsbirders.net/latest_sightings.html

I tend to agree with Alex Lees that it better fits a Sterna, especially in
terms of its daintiness, its lack of the distinctly long, almost
sickle-shaped hand of Gull-billed, the small head and bill, and the
abruptness of the angle between the forehead and bill.

The somewhat stubby bill, head, and neck remind me of an Arctic Tern. This
might explain the heavy upper chest and the distinct translucence to the
inner primaries and outer secondaries. It appears that only the first and
second primaries (from the inside) have been replaced, while the remaining
primaries are worn and therefore very dark. Larsson and Malling Olsen's
book notes that second-summer Arctics may replace these innermost primaries
before suspending primary molt in summer. Second-summer Arctics are
variable in terms of tail pattern and streamer length, cap extent, bill
color, and darkness of underparts. I would hesitate to put much weight on
length of the outermost rectrices, just in case they are missing or growing.

I don't know if Antarctic Terns ever look like this.

Tristan McKee
Arcata, California, USA

On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 3:09 PM, James Barton 
wrote:

> Hello.  The bird definitely does NOT say Common Tern to me.  The bill is
> too thick, and also too short relative to the depth of the head.  Common
> Tern bill resembles a rapier.  The bill of this bird looks like a stone
> hand-axe.
>
> The tail is too short relative to the body.   The fork in the tail  is
> noticeably shallow, by contrast with what I would certainly expect of
> hirundo.  The wings are long, and, I would venture, would show very
> considerable primary extension on a  bird resting on a beach. Gull-billed
> shows very considerable extension.
>
> As to age, I see no evidence of the carpal bar that I think one would want
> on a young hirundo.  Granted, the photos are hardly definitive, but I see
> no black leading edge to the inner wing of the bird approaching in flight.
> The bird looks very pale above, just as I would expect   Gull-billed to be.
>
> I would welcome hearing from the original observers (and anyone else who
> wants to comment).
>
> Yours,
>
> James H. Barton
> Cambridge, MA, USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 12:58:31 +0000
> > From: lincslister AT YAHOO.CO.UK
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] reported Gull-billed Tern in the UK
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >
> > Hi all
> > A Gull-billed Tern  (Gelochelidon nilotica) was reported from the Idle
> Valley, Nottinghamshire briefly on 11th June and a few (relatively poor
> quality) images have surfaced online - e.g.
> http://www.loundbirdclub.com/recentbirdsightings.htm and on social media.
> I haven't noticed any discussion on these, but with the caveat that 'the
> camera can misrepresent' I (and a friend I consulted on BBRC) am struck by
> the rather Sterna-like jizz (short-winged, pot-bellied, small-billed) and
> plumage features e.g. apparent dark plumage tones and dark outer tail
> feathers that seem a better fit for a sub adult Common Tern (Sterna
> hirundo). Any other opinions?
> > cheers
> > Alex
> ***********************************************************************
> > Dr Alexander C. Lees Dept. of Zoology Museu Paraense Emílio Goeldi
> Caixa Postal 399  CEP 66040-170 Belém - PA BRAZILhttp://
> www.freewebs.com/alexlees/index.htm
> ***********************************************************************
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: reported Gull-billed Tern in the UK
From: James Barton <redwing1986 AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 18:09:40 -0400
Hello. The bird definitely does NOT say Common Tern to me. The bill is too 
thick, and also too short relative to the depth of the head. Common Tern bill 
resembles a rapier. The bill of this bird looks like a stone hand-axe. 

 
The tail is too short relative to the body. The fork in the tail is noticeably 
shallow, by contrast with what I would certainly expect of hirundo. The wings 
are long, and, I would venture, would show very considerable primary extension 
on a bird resting on a beach. Gull-billed shows very considerable extension. 

 
As to age, I see no evidence of the carpal bar that I think one would want on a 
young hirundo. Granted, the photos are hardly definitive, but I see no black 
leading edge to the inner wing of the bird approaching in flight. The bird 
looks very pale above, just as I would expect Gull-billed to be. 

 
I would welcome hearing from the original observers (and anyone else who wants 
to comment). 

 
Yours,
 
James H. Barton
Cambridge, MA, USA
 
 
 
 

 
> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 12:58:31 +0000
> From: lincslister AT YAHOO.CO.UK
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] reported Gull-billed Tern in the UK
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Hi all
> A Gull-billed Tern (Gelochelidon nilotica) was reported from the Idle Valley, 
Nottinghamshire briefly on 11th June and a few (relatively poor quality) images 
have surfaced online - e.g. 
http://www.loundbirdclub.com/recentbirdsightings.htm and on social media. I 
haven't noticed any discussion on these, but with the caveat that 'the camera 
can misrepresent' I (and a friend I consulted on BBRC) am struck by the rather 
Sterna-like jizz (short-winged, pot-bellied, small-billed) and plumage features 
e.g. apparent dark plumage tones and dark outer tail feathers that seem a 
better fit for a sub adult Common Tern (Sterna hirundo). Any other opinions? 

> cheers
> Alex ***********************************************************************
> Dr Alexander C. Lees Dept. of Zoology Museu Paraense Emlio Goeldi Caixa 
Postal 399 CEP 66040-170 Belm - PA 
BRAZILhttp://www.freewebs.com/alexlees/index.htm 
*********************************************************************** 

> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: east coast dowitcher
From: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 00:11:49 +0000
Suzanne and all: your bird is a Short-billed Dowitcher, and probably of the 
subspecies griseus due to the large amount of white on the lower belly and 
vent. A hendersoni Short-billed would have mostly orange underparts given the 
mostly fresh breeding plumage condition on the upperparts and underparts. A few 
primaries and tertials are worn nonbreeding-like feathers, which suggests a 
possible first spring bird, but this is not definite since low sustenance and 
energy levels can create a wide assortment of partial breeding to almost full 
breeding conditions. 


As for Long-billed Dowitchers all showing full breeding plumage in mid-May to 
early June, that may be reliable for more northern regions, but some birds in 
the southern regions can show a wide assortment of partial breeding to almost 
full breeding conditions depending on their sexual hormone levels or lack of 
sustenance. I see a wide assortment of Long-billed and Short-billed dowitchers 
in Texas in April, and many Short-billed Dowitchers in mid to late May in NJ 
(mostly griseus, but some hendersoni, and some intergrades of the two ssp.), 
and these include full breeding plumage while other birds show an assortment of 
partial breeding to almost full breeding conditions. There is no solid 
reasoning for having only full breeding plumage dowitchers in early June, since 
numbers of first spring Short-billed Dowitchers are hanging around the Atlantic 
Coast and will undergo an early molt to nonbreeding plumage before heading 
south in mid-summer. If a Long-billed Dowitcher flew north and was not 
hormonally pushed to fly to the Tundra (a LBDO showed up in May in Pennsylvania 
this year, and it was in partial breeding plumage), it would not show full 
breeding plumage now. In fact, a full breeding plumage LBDO in late May to June 
would be more unusual, since most of the population breeds on the North Slope 
of Alaska and Canada and most birds would be gone from the US by late May to 
early June. 


The structure of your bird is also fine for SBDO and not LBDO due to the very 
even weight distribution in front of and behind the legs (LBDO would show a 
noticeable front heavy body weight distribution, with a much thicker neck and 
slightly larger, deeper head). The undercarriage is also mostly straight or 
slightly elliptical, where LBDO shows a more distended, egg-shaped 
undercarriage in the posture of the bird in the first photo that is standing a 
rest and leaning slightly forward. 


Kevin Karlson 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: reported Gull-billed Tern in the UK
From: Alex Lees <lincslister AT YAHOO.CO.UK>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 12:58:31 +0000
Hi all
A Gull-billed Tern  (Gelochelidon nilotica) was reported from the Idle 
Valley, Nottinghamshire briefly on 11th June and a few (relatively poor 
quality) images have surfaced online - 
e.g. http://www.loundbirdclub.com/recentbirdsightings.htm and on social 
media. I haven't noticed any discussion on these, but with the caveat that 'the 
camera can misrepresent' I (and a friend I consulted on BBRC) am struck by the 
rather Sterna-like jizz (short-winged, pot-bellied, small-billed) and plumage 
features e.g. apparent dark plumage tones and dark outer tail feathers that 
seem a better fit for a sub adult Common Tern (Sterna hirundo). Any other 
opinions? 

cheers
Alex ***********************************************************************
Dr Alexander C. Lees Dept. of Zoology Museu Paraense Emílio Goeldi Caixa 
Postal 399 CEP 66040-170 Belém - PA 
BRAZILhttp://www.freewebs.com/alexlees/index.htm 
*********************************************************************** 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: help with possible LBDO identification on east coast
From: Suzanne Sullivan <swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 21:19:30 -0400
Thank you everyone for your helpful comments, much appreciated.  SBDO it
is. I have never seen a spring LBDO so my experience is lacking.
Thanks again
Suzanne Sullivan

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Jean Iron  wrote:

> Hi Suzanne,
>
> By zooming the photos to 300%, your bird looks like a solid Short-billed
> Dowitcher, probably in first summer (alternate) plumage. Typical of eastern
> Short-bills, the cinnamon coloration is on the neck/breast with the belly
> being mainly white unlike a Long-billed Dowitcher. Also, it lacks the
> Long-billed Dowitcher's well-formed bars on the side of the breast. Both
> species can have bars on sides and flanks.
>
> Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron
> Toronto, Ontario
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan
> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 6:25 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] help with possible LBDO identification on east coast
>
> All,
> I wold love some comments on this Dowitcher. Long-billed is pretty rare on
> east coast in spring so important to get it right. I’m guessing it is in
> partial alternate, possibly female, it shows the sharp loral angle,
> straight supercillium, short wing projection, barrens as opposed to
> spotting, and has that “football” look, deep chested, keeled rear end,
> hunched over.  I can not make out the pattern of white in the photos, in
> the field it looked like they were edged but I would not swear to this,
> these photos are fem Plum Island Mass, 6-11-15, they are digiscoped, high
> iso, clouds coming and going, and the focus on the scope half maxed on some
> shots not all so not best conditions for digiscoping.
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/160395807 just hit next in right
> corner for some more, also for an added extra there are some photos of a
> possible LittleX Snowy hybrid I put up on the site from yesterday also.
> Thanks in advance for the help, appreciated.
>
> --
> Suzanne M. Sullivan
> Wilmington, MA
> swampy435 AT gmail.com
>
> Be the Voice of the River
> http://www.ipswichriver.org
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>


-- 
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: help with possible LBDO identification on east coast
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 19:08:51 -0400
Hi Suzanne,

By zooming the photos to 300%, your bird looks like a solid Short-billed 
Dowitcher, probably in first summer (alternate) plumage. Typical of eastern 
Short-bills, the cinnamon coloration is on the neck/breast with the belly being 
mainly white unlike a Long-billed Dowitcher. Also, it lacks the Long-billed 
Dowitcher's well-formed bars on the side of the breast. Both species can have 
bars on sides and flanks. 


Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron
Toronto, Ontario



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan 

Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 6:25 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] help with possible LBDO identification on east coast

All,
I wold love some comments on this Dowitcher. Long-billed is pretty rare on east 
coast in spring so important to get it right. I’m guessing it is in partial 
alternate, possibly female, it shows the sharp loral angle, straight 
supercillium, short wing projection, barrens as opposed to spotting, and has 
that “football” look, deep chested, keeled rear end, hunched over. I can 
not make out the pattern of white in the photos, in the field it looked like 
they were edged but I would not swear to this, these photos are fem Plum Island 
Mass, 6-11-15, they are digiscoped, high iso, clouds coming and going, and the 
focus on the scope half maxed on some shots not all so not best conditions for 
digiscoping. 

http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/160395807 just hit next in right corner for 
some more, also for an added extra there are some photos of a possible LittleX 
Snowy hybrid I put up on the site from yesterday also. 

Thanks in advance for the help, appreciated.

--
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: help with possible LBDO identification on east coast
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 16:44:21 +0000
Suzanne,

I have seen a few dowitchers in late May/June over the last decade in Santa 
Barbara. My experience has been that Long-billed Dowitchers at that time are in 
full alternate plumage (e.g. showing completely red underparts). In contrast, 
the occasional records of Short-billed Dowitchers that show up are in a 
basic-like (presumably first-summer) plumage, although we have left a few birds 
like this unidentified as they didn't call (bill length suggested 
Short-billed). To my (West coast) eyes, your bird looks like an alternate 
Short-billed Dowitcher to me. 


Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan 

Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 3:25 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] help with possible LBDO identification on east coast

All,
I wold love some comments on this Dowitcher. Long-billed is pretty rare on east 
coast in spring so important to get it right. I’m guessing it is in partial 
alternate, possibly female, it shows the sharp loral angle, straight 
supercillium, short wing projection, barrens as opposed to spotting, and has 
that “football” look, deep chested, keeled rear end, hunched over. I can 
not make out the pattern of white in the photos, in the field it looked like 
they were edged but I would not swear to this, these photos are fem Plum Island 
Mass, 6-11-15, they are digiscoped, high iso, clouds coming and going, and the 
focus on the scope half maxed on some shots not all so not best conditions for 
digiscoping. 

http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/160395807 just hit next in right corner for 
some more, also for an added extra there are some photos of a possible LittleX 
Snowy hybrid I put up on the site from yesterday also. 

Thanks in advance for the help, appreciated.

--
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: help with possible LBDO identification on east coast
From: Suzanne Sullivan <swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 06:25:14 -0400
All,
I wold love some comments on this Dowitcher. Long-billed is pretty rare on
east coast in spring so important to get it right. I’m guessing it is in
partial alternate, possibly female, it shows the sharp loral angle,
straight supercillium, short wing projection, barrens as opposed to
spotting, and has that “football” look, deep chested, keeled rear end,
hunched over.  I can not make out the pattern of white in the photos, in
the field it looked like they were edged but I would not swear to this,
these photos are fem Plum Island Mass, 6-11-15, they are digiscoped, high
iso, clouds coming and going, and the focus on the scope half maxed on some
shots not all so not best conditions for digiscoping.
http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/160395807 just hit next in right corner
for some more, also for an added extra there are some photos of a possible
LittleX Snowy hybrid I put up on the site from yesterday also.
Thanks in advance for the help, appreciated.

-- 
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right?
From: Ken Blankenship <kenhblankenship AT COMCAST.NET>
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 09:08:56 -0500
Hi, all.

A big Thank You to all of you who helped clear up the ID of this bleached-
out, worn AMERICAN HERRING GULL in Georgia! Replies both on- and off-list 
form a clear consensus that it is within the normal range of variation for 
very late 1st-cycle/coming into 2nd-cycle Herring Gulls, though most agree 
that it is particularly close to the "bleached out" end of the spectrum. It 
was also pointed out that this plumage is especially prominent among 1st-
year HERGs that spend their 1st winter at more southerly latitudes.

I think one of the main ID challenge with this bird was sheer distance from 
observers for the first 4-5 days it was present. It was anywhere from 600-
1200 meters(0.4-0.7 miles) away from the closest vantage point before Bob 
Sattelmeyer kayaked out there to get the closer photos that revealed just 
how extensive the grayish-brown coloration is on not only the bird's tail 
but also on its primaries. The first few digiscoped photos caused the whole 
area of the wingtips/tail to morph into little more than a light grayish 
wash, all of the grayish flecking on the mantle and in the coverts that can 
be appreciated in the closer shots is invisible. The bird is rendered in 
digiscoped photos into what looks like a virtually all-white gull, with 
grayish blemishes in the scapulars, some kind of "off-white/beige/grayish" 
in the area of the tail, a large pink bill with a black tip, and pink legs. 
Down here, we don't get the chance to study the wide array of Gull-icious 
delicacies that many ID-Frontiers subscribers do... so you can imagine the 
visions of Glaucous Gull and Nelson's Gull dancing in our heads. :)

Thanks again, everyone! And kudos to Bob for going the extra... well, 
1/2-mile to get the diagnostic photos needed to nail this down.

Sincerely,
Ken Blankenship
Georgia, USA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right?
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 20:20:04 -0700
Let me add to the voices that this is perfectly normal for a one-year-old
Herring Gull.  Coverts bleached white in early summer is common in many
(most?) gull species.  The primaries were once very dark (i.e. black).  The
bill pattern is typical for late 1st cycle and 2nd cycle Herring.  For a
bird not quite as bleached (because it was photographed in late March), see
Figure 7 at http://www.tertial.us/gulls/smith2.htm.

This is probably the most common ID mistake on the continent.  On the North
American Gulls Facebook group this past winter, over 50% (probably
something like 90%!) of the claimed Nelson's Gulls were 2nd cycle Herring
Gulls.



On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 6:37 PM, Glenn d'Entremont 
wrote:

> The dark/brownish primaries are not correct for pure Glaucous.  The bill
> looks like too much black on the bill.  Could this be a Nelson's Gull
> (Glaucous X Herring)?
>
> Glenn
>
> Glenn d'Entremont:  gdentremont1 AT comcast.net  Stoughton, MA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Blankenship" 
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2015 6:26:17 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right?
>
> Hi, all.
>
> On 29 May a gull was first noted on the sand bars of Gould's Inlet, between
> St. Simons Island and Sea Island, Georgia. For several days afterwards only
> extremely distant views and digiscoped photos were possible, and everything
> seemed to point to a 2nd-year (coming out of 1st-winter) GLAUCOUS GULL.
> Today, 4 June, an intrepid birder and photographer kayaked over to the
> bird's preferred haunts to get closer photos.
>
> What had appeared as an off-white/cream wash about the tail and primaries
> from far away now looks much darker. The upper side of the rectrices appear
> very brownish-gray, and some of this coloration shows on the primaries as
> well, especially when the wings are folded. I observed it in flight on 29
> May, and I thought the wings looked fairly white overall, with only a bit
> of beige-cream contrast towards the outer third. No close flight shots were
> obtained, only standing/walking. And to toss out one more thing, I feel
> it's pretty clear that the bird's flight feathers are in poor condition
> overall. I wouldn't say for certain that it looks contaminated, but many of
> the feathers appear quite bedraggled, do they not?
>
> Any-hoo, we've never had a GLGU this late down here, let alone one that
> *seems* to show a few odd traits. I'd really appreciate if some of you
> Laridophiles could chime in to peg it as a Glaucous Gull within the normal
> range of variation... or perhaps shine new light on possible hybrids, etc.
>
> Link to photos by Robert Sattelmeyer:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/24024265 AT N05/
>
> Thanks,
> Ken Blankenship
> Marietta, Georgia, USA
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right?
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 21:39:40 -0400
Ken,
 
All SY American Herring Gulls look more or less like yours right now around 
 here (Texas). Can look much worse next month: 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/american_herring_gull__need_for_molt__utc__july_2012
 
Cheers,
 
Mark B Bartosik
 
 
In a message dated 6/4/2015 5:37:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
kenhblankenship AT COMCAST.NET writes:

Hi,  all.

On 29 May a gull was first noted on the sand bars of Gould's  Inlet, 
between 
St. Simons Island and Sea Island, Georgia. For several days  afterwards 
only 
extremely distant views and digiscoped photos were  possible, and 
everything 
seemed to point to a 2nd-year (coming out of  1st-winter) GLAUCOUS GULL. 
Today, 4 June, an intrepid birder and  photographer kayaked over to the 
bird's preferred haunts to get closer  photos.

What had appeared as an off-white/cream wash about the tail and  primaries 
from far away now looks much darker. The upper side of the  rectrices 
appear 
very brownish-gray, and some of this coloration shows on  the primaries as 
well, especially when the wings are folded. I observed it  in flight on 29 
May, and I thought the wings looked fairly white overall,  with only a bit 
of beige-cream contrast towards the outer third. No close  flight shots 
were 
obtained, only standing/walking. And to toss out one  more thing, I feel 
it's pretty clear that the bird's flight feathers are  in poor condition 
overall. I wouldn't say for certain that it looks  contaminated, but many 
of 
the feathers appear quite bedraggled, do they  not?

Any-hoo, we've never had a GLGU this late down here, let alone one  that 
*seems* to show a few odd traits. I'd really appreciate if some of  you 
Laridophiles could chime in to peg it as a Glaucous Gull within the  normal 
range of variation... or perhaps shine new light on possible  hybrids, etc.

Link to photos by Robert  Sattelmeyer:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24024265 AT N05/  

Thanks,
Ken Blankenship
Marietta, Georgia, USA

Archives:  http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right?
From: "Glenn d'Entremont" <gdentremont1 AT COMCAST.NET>
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 01:37:03 +0000
The dark/brownish primaries are not correct for pure Glaucous. The bill looks 
like too much black on the bill. Could this be a Nelson's Gull (Glaucous X 
Herring)? 


Glenn

Glenn d'Entremont:  gdentremont1 AT comcast.net  Stoughton, MA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Blankenship" 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2015 6:26:17 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right?

Hi, all.

On 29 May a gull was first noted on the sand bars of Gould's Inlet, between 
St. Simons Island and Sea Island, Georgia. For several days afterwards only 
extremely distant views and digiscoped photos were possible, and everything 
seemed to point to a 2nd-year (coming out of 1st-winter) GLAUCOUS GULL. 
Today, 4 June, an intrepid birder and photographer kayaked over to the 
bird's preferred haunts to get closer photos.

What had appeared as an off-white/cream wash about the tail and primaries 
from far away now looks much darker. The upper side of the rectrices appear 
very brownish-gray, and some of this coloration shows on the primaries as 
well, especially when the wings are folded. I observed it in flight on 29 
May, and I thought the wings looked fairly white overall, with only a bit 
of beige-cream contrast towards the outer third. No close flight shots were 
obtained, only standing/walking. And to toss out one more thing, I feel 
it's pretty clear that the bird's flight feathers are in poor condition 
overall. I wouldn't say for certain that it looks contaminated, but many of 
the feathers appear quite bedraggled, do they not?

Any-hoo, we've never had a GLGU this late down here, let alone one that 
*seems* to show a few odd traits. I'd really appreciate if some of you 
Laridophiles could chime in to peg it as a Glaucous Gull within the normal 
range of variation... or perhaps shine new light on possible hybrids, etc.

Link to photos by Robert Sattelmeyer:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24024265 AT N05/ 

Thanks,
Ken Blankenship
Marietta, Georgia, USA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right?
From: Amar Ayyash <amarayyash AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 19:00:43 -0500
Ken, this looks like a very worn and bleached first summer Herring Gull.
The primaries are far too dark to be a Glaucous.


Best,
Amar Ayyash
Frankfort IL

www.anythinglarus.com

On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 5:26 PM, Ken Blankenship  wrote:

> Hi, all.
>
> On 29 May a gull was first noted on the sand bars of Gould's Inlet, between
> St. Simons Island and Sea Island, Georgia. For several days afterwards only
> extremely distant views and digiscoped photos were possible, and everything
> seemed to point to a 2nd-year (coming out of 1st-winter) GLAUCOUS GULL.
> Today, 4 June, an intrepid birder and photographer kayaked over to the
> bird's preferred haunts to get closer photos.
>
> What had appeared as an off-white/cream wash about the tail and primaries
> from far away now looks much darker. The upper side of the rectrices appear
> very brownish-gray, and some of this coloration shows on the primaries as
> well, especially when the wings are folded. I observed it in flight on 29
> May, and I thought the wings looked fairly white overall, with only a bit
> of beige-cream contrast towards the outer third. No close flight shots were
> obtained, only standing/walking. And to toss out one more thing, I feel
> it's pretty clear that the bird's flight feathers are in poor condition
> overall. I wouldn't say for certain that it looks contaminated, but many of
> the feathers appear quite bedraggled, do they not?
>
> Any-hoo, we've never had a GLGU this late down here, let alone one that
> *seems* to show a few odd traits. I'd really appreciate if some of you
> Laridophiles could chime in to peg it as a Glaucous Gull within the normal
> range of variation... or perhaps shine new light on possible hybrids, etc.
>
> Link to photos by Robert Sattelmeyer:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/24024265 AT N05/
>
> Thanks,
> Ken Blankenship
> Marietta, Georgia, USA
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right?
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 00:00:04 +0000
I used to look at a lot of worn immature gulls in the San Francisco Bay area 
where both Glaucous and Nelson's Gulls were regular in small numbers. This is 
definitely nowhere near a pure Glaucous Gull. In fact, given how dark the 
primaries are on such a worn bird, I am not sure it might not just be an 
American Herring Gull. I can't remember what % of these would show a bill like 
this by June but I would suspect some since this is the normal bill pattern on 
2nd-cycle birds. 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Ken Blankenship 

Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 3:26 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right?

Hi, all.

On 29 May a gull was first noted on the sand bars of Gould's Inlet, between St. 
Simons Island and Sea Island, Georgia. For several days afterwards only 
extremely distant views and digiscoped photos were possible, and everything 
seemed to point to a 2nd-year (coming out of 1st-winter) GLAUCOUS GULL. 

Today, 4 June, an intrepid birder and photographer kayaked over to the bird's 
preferred haunts to get closer photos. 


What had appeared as an off-white/cream wash about the tail and primaries from 
far away now looks much darker. The upper side of the rectrices appear very 
brownish-gray, and some of this coloration shows on the primaries as well, 
especially when the wings are folded. I observed it in flight on 29 May, and I 
thought the wings looked fairly white overall, with only a bit of beige-cream 
contrast towards the outer third. No close flight shots were obtained, only 
standing/walking. And to toss out one more thing, I feel it's pretty clear that 
the bird's flight feathers are in poor condition overall. I wouldn't say for 
certain that it looks contaminated, but many of the feathers appear quite 
bedraggled, do they not? 


Any-hoo, we've never had a GLGU this late down here, let alone one that
*seems* to show a few odd traits. I'd really appreciate if some of you 
Laridophiles could chime in to peg it as a Glaucous Gull within the normal 
range of variation... or perhaps shine new light on possible hybrids, etc. 


Link to photos by Robert Sattelmeyer:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24024265 AT N05/ 

Thanks,
Ken Blankenship
Marietta, Georgia, USA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Glaucous Gull in Georgia, USA in June... right?
From: Ken Blankenship <kenhblankenship AT COMCAST.NET>
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 17:26:17 -0500
Hi, all.

On 29 May a gull was first noted on the sand bars of Gould's Inlet, between 
St. Simons Island and Sea Island, Georgia. For several days afterwards only 
extremely distant views and digiscoped photos were possible, and everything 
seemed to point to a 2nd-year (coming out of 1st-winter) GLAUCOUS GULL. 
Today, 4 June, an intrepid birder and photographer kayaked over to the 
bird's preferred haunts to get closer photos.

What had appeared as an off-white/cream wash about the tail and primaries 
from far away now looks much darker. The upper side of the rectrices appear 
very brownish-gray, and some of this coloration shows on the primaries as 
well, especially when the wings are folded. I observed it in flight on 29 
May, and I thought the wings looked fairly white overall, with only a bit 
of beige-cream contrast towards the outer third. No close flight shots were 
obtained, only standing/walking. And to toss out one more thing, I feel 
it's pretty clear that the bird's flight feathers are in poor condition 
overall. I wouldn't say for certain that it looks contaminated, but many of 
the feathers appear quite bedraggled, do they not?

Any-hoo, we've never had a GLGU this late down here, let alone one that 
*seems* to show a few odd traits. I'd really appreciate if some of you 
Laridophiles could chime in to peg it as a Glaucous Gull within the normal 
range of variation... or perhaps shine new light on possible hybrids, etc.

Link to photos by Robert Sattelmeyer:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24024265 AT N05/ 

Thanks,
Ken Blankenship
Marietta, Georgia, USA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: ADMIN Request
From: Chuck Otte <cotte AT KSU.EDU>
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 15:13:57 -0500
Good afternoon ID-Frontiers!

If anyone has sent a message to the list in the past 10 days or so and it has 
not shown up, please let me know.

Thank you!
Chuck Otte
IF-Frontiers co-listowner

-----
Chuck Otte                      cotte AT ksu.edu
County Extension Agent, Ag & Natural Resources
Geary County Extension Office, PO BOX 28         785-238-4161
Junction City, Kansas 66441-0028             FAX 785-238-7166
http://www.geary.ksu.edu/

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Puzzling heron in Florida
From: Rex Rowan <rexrowan AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 20:57:47 -0400
On 5/18/15 Mitchell Harris found this heron at Merritt Island NWR. He
thought it might be a hybrid (Snowy X Tricolored or Little Blue) or a
Western Reef-Heron. He wrote, "The shape and length of the feathering under
the lower mandible in the MINWR bird fits every image of Reef Heron I
looked at and does not fit Snowy, Little Blue or Tri-colored." There's been
a lot of discussion on the state listserv since, some of it centering on
the behavior, which has been described only in general terms. Danny Bales
wrote, "It feeds like no other heron I've seen in Florida."

Mitchell Harris posted four photos on his Flickr account, beginning with
this one:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/87459132 AT N02/17293085703/in/dateposted-public/

Danny Bales posted four photos on his Flickr account, beginning here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mudhen/17945973291/in/photostream/

Can anyone who has experience with Western Reef-Heron throw a little light
on the subject? It would be a first record for Florida.

Rex Rowan
Gainesville, Florida

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Yellow-bellied vs. Western flycatchers
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd57 AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 09:31:28 -0700
Hi, all. In fact, the article in Birding is chiefly a review and distillation 
of the Baumann et al. paper. Sorry for not being clear about that. 

Ted FloydLafayette, Boulder County, Colorado, USA

> From: nlethaby AT ti.com
> To: tedfloyd57 AT HOTMAIL.COM; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Yellow-bellied vs. Western flycatchers
> Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 16:21:35 +0000
> 
> There is a previously published paper that talks about the length of the 
edgings on the tertials, which I think is pretty similar to what you are 
describing. I suspect you are aware of this: 

> 
> Simple technique for distinguishing Yellow-bellied Flycatchers from 
Cordilleran and Pacific-slopeflycatchers 

> Matthew J. Baumann, Spencer C. Galen, Nicholas D. Pederson, and Christopher 
C. Witt 

> 
> I agree that if it applies to all the secondaries and creates a dark bar that 
would be an easier feature to use in the field than one of the tertial edges. 

> 

 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Passerina Buntings
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd57 AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 09:36:51 -0700
17+ years later, here's an update... :-)
http://birdingmagazine.aba.org/i/509920-april-2015/34
(ABA password required for the full text.) Thanks to Nick Lethaby for this fine 
contribution. 

Ted FloydLafayette, Boulder County, Colorado


Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 04:23:35 +0000
Reply-To:     Jonathan Dunn <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Jonathan Dunn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Passerina Buntings

I wish to further add to my earlier comments on the Morlan web page
Passerina Bunting photo.  This reflects, in part, the further comments
posted by Matt Heindel and Will Russell on this subject.

Since my earlier post I had the chance to again look at perhaps a dozen
female Indigo Buntings at Bentsen RGV State Park as well as to look at fresh
winter skins at the Field Museum in Chicago.  The Field Museum had a fine
winter series of Indigos from northern Central America as well as having a
small series of fresh winter plumaged Lazuli Buntings.  Based on the above I
remain satisfied that the Santa Barbara winter bunting is in fact a Lazuli,
the only caution being if the photo is wildly misleading.  Despite Kenn's
objections, I remain convinced that the presence or absence of streaking on
the underparts is the single best feature between the two species when
dealing with fresh winter plumaged birds (after conclusion of all
supplemental molts).  All of the Indigos I saw again in south Texas and
every single specimen (of many) at the Field Museum shows to my eye obvious
blurry streaks across the breast and down the sides and flanks.  Yes, the
streaks aren't as obvious as say on a Savannah Sparrow, Northern Waterthrush
or the like, but if looked for they are clearly visible.  Of all the
specimens, the one with the faintest breast streaks was #211296 from
Taxisco, Guatemala on 13 Dec. 1950 (but even this one still had fairly
obvious streaks across the chest).  It is worth repeating that Paul Lehman
looked for and saw no breast streaking (see his earlier post).  He did see
very faint markings on the flanks.

The underparts on the Lazuli specimens showed not a trace of streaking
across the breast or for that matter along the sides and flanks.  Instead
the color was a smooth and rich buff.  Fall immature Lazulis do indeed show
fin pin like streaking (as opposed to blurry streaks of winter Indigos), but
all of this is lost by winter (at the latest).

My notes on wingbars from specimens of both species is that Lazlui has
bolder wingbars (broad buffy or cinnamon tips to median and greater
coverts), particularly the tips of the median coverts.  Unfortunately, the
median coverts are largely hidden on the photo. The edges of the greater
coverts do look broad and contrasty to my eye, but I didn't download the
photo to compare directly to the skins.  I agree with Heindel's
characterization of the difference between the two species in regards to the
wingbars.

An additional feature brought to my attention, and mentioned in the new Pyle
is the rump color.  Indigos have uniformly brown upperparts with no trace of
contrast on the rump.  The small series of fresh winter female Lazulis all
showed contrastingly paler gray rumps.  The pale rump also appears on the
web page photo.  I wondered if it might be light shining off the rump, but
the size and location of this pale patch seems a near perfect match.  I was
not able to notice this paler patch on skins of young Lazulis in early fall
that still had fine streaking on the chest.

In reviewing all of the details, the only point that mitigates against
Lazlui (slightly) are the very faint flank markings that were noted (can't
see them in the photo). I thought that I might be able to perhaps see such
marks on the specimens of Lazuli, but upon reflection that seemed to be a
stretch.

I was able to look at three winter specimens of Varied Buntings (pulchra) at
the Field Museum.  The spcimens were old and perhaps that explains the
"colder" look to the underparts (less warm brown) which were also more
uniform.  The upperparts were also uniformly colored (like Indigo) and as
mentioned by others, the wingbars were thinner and duller and not as
contrasty (same for tertials). As Kenn indicated (and contra my earlier
post) there is some bluish visible in the tail on female Varied Buntings
(and immature males presumably).  This color color was just barely evident
(more obvious on Lazluis), but that may have been due to the age of the
Varied Bunting specimens.  Looking at skins I did become more impressed with
the bill shape of Varied (culmen decidedly more curved).  Kevin Zimmer had
called my attention to this feature a good while ago but I just hadn't been
that impressed with it in the field.  I now very much look forward to
looking at more.

Jon L. Dunn
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Yellow-bellied vs. Western flycatchers
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 16:30:19 +0000
The paper actually talks about the secondaries edging so it is the same 
feature. 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Ted Floyd 

Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 8:23 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Yellow-bellied vs. Western flycatchers

Hello, Birders. There's coverage of this matter in the April 2015 Birding. Note 
that Frontiers of Bird ID and Tony Leukering are mentioned in the coverage in 
Birding. Here's a link to the full article (password required): 


http://birdingmagazine.aba.org/i/509920-april-2015/30
Ted FloydLafayette, Boulder County, Colorado, USA





Hi all:

A while back, I was perusing the Sibley Guide and noticed that David had 
illustrated the secondary edgings of Yellow-bellied Flycatcher (YBFL) and the 
Western Flycatchers (WEFL; Cordilleran -- COFL; Pacific-slope -- PSFL) 
differently. As there is so little text in the book, I always find it hard to 
determine whether differences illustrated by David are actual or just chance in 
the way that they were depicted. However, knowing David's attention to detail, 
I usually assume that any differences are real until proven otherwise. This all 
came up due to the recent plethora of reports of YBFL from Colorado. As 
Colorado's (and the West's) birders get more knowledgeable, they have turned 
their attention to Empidonax with a vengeance. However, having more features 
that are useful as separators would be helpful, so I was looking into the 
subject. 


What I found in searching images of the various species on Flickr was that YBFL 
seemed to show a dark bar between the edges of the secondary fringes and the 
lower wing bar that was consistently wide, while those of WEFLs seemed to vary 
quite a bit, but included many individuals/situations where that bar was quite 
narrow. This difference in bar width approaches the difference in this feature 
between Ruby-crowned Kinglet and Hutton's Vireo (a quite useful feature in 
separating these amazingly-similar beasts). I provide numerous links below that 
I believe capture much of the variation in this feature in all three species. 


My questions are:  Have others looked into this?  If so, what was the upshot?

Sincerely,

Tony Leukering
Villas, NJ



YBFL
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sonofjon/5818891819/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9534802 AT N02/3948241405/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seabamirum/2794568346/

and one from New Mexico
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jroldenettel/4978438492/

this is the narrowest that I found
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ed_schneider/3793405727/


COFL with narrow
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jazzymountaingal/3193670411/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/billbev09/3352877088/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/danaman/184919798/

COFL with wide
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chaparralbrad/4777821432/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lvfeltz/5279818561/


PSFL with narrow
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mostlybirds/3534235949/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimscarff/5672856431/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jerryting/4911840003/

PSFL with wide
http://www.flickr.com/photos/magical_light/4618194074/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jerryting/4597721466/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/maholyoak/5851520110/


WEFL with wide
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nightjar/520732458/ 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Yellow-bellied vs. Western flycatchers
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 16:21:35 +0000
There is a previously published paper that talks about the length of the 
edgings on the tertials, which I think is pretty similar to what you are 
describing. I suspect you are aware of this: 


Simple technique for distinguishing Yellow-bellied Flycatchers from Cordilleran 
and Pacific-slopeflycatchers 

Matthew J. Baumann, Spencer C. Galen, Nicholas D. Pederson, and Christopher C. 
Witt 


I agree that if it applies to all the secondaries and creates a dark bar that 
would be an easier feature to use in the field than one of the tertial edges. 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Ted Floyd 

Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 8:23 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Yellow-bellied vs. Western flycatchers

Hello, Birders. There's coverage of this matter in the April 2015 Birding. Note 
that Frontiers of Bird ID and Tony Leukering are mentioned in the coverage in 
Birding. Here's a link to the full article (password required): 


http://birdingmagazine.aba.org/i/509920-april-2015/30
Ted FloydLafayette, Boulder County, Colorado, USA





Hi all:

A while back, I was perusing the Sibley Guide and noticed that David had 
illustrated the secondary edgings of Yellow-bellied Flycatcher (YBFL) and the 
Western Flycatchers (WEFL; Cordilleran -- COFL; Pacific-slope -- PSFL) 
differently. As there is so little text in the book, I always find it hard to 
determine whether differences illustrated by David are actual or just chance in 
the way that they were depicted. However, knowing David's attention to detail, 
I usually assume that any differences are real until proven otherwise. This all 
came up due to the recent plethora of reports of YBFL from Colorado. As 
Colorado's (and the West's) birders get more knowledgeable, they have turned 
their attention to Empidonax with a vengeance. However, having more features 
that are useful as separators would be helpful, so I was looking into the 
subject. 


What I found in searching images of the various species on Flickr was that YBFL 
seemed to show a dark bar between the edges of the secondary fringes and the 
lower wing bar that was consistently wide, while those of WEFLs seemed to vary 
quite a bit, but included many individuals/situations where that bar was quite 
narrow. This difference in bar width approaches the difference in this feature 
between Ruby-crowned Kinglet and Hutton's Vireo (a quite useful feature in 
separating these amazingly-similar beasts). I provide numerous links below that 
I believe capture much of the variation in this feature in all three species. 


My questions are:  Have others looked into this?  If so, what was the upshot?

Sincerely,

Tony Leukering
Villas, NJ



YBFL
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sonofjon/5818891819/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9534802 AT N02/3948241405/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seabamirum/2794568346/

and one from New Mexico
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jroldenettel/4978438492/

this is the narrowest that I found
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ed_schneider/3793405727/


COFL with narrow
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jazzymountaingal/3193670411/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/billbev09/3352877088/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/danaman/184919798/

COFL with wide
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chaparralbrad/4777821432/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lvfeltz/5279818561/


PSFL with narrow
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mostlybirds/3534235949/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimscarff/5672856431/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jerryting/4911840003/

PSFL with wide
http://www.flickr.com/photos/magical_light/4618194074/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jerryting/4597721466/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/maholyoak/5851520110/


WEFL with wide
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nightjar/520732458/ 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Yellow-bellied vs. Western flycatchers
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd57 AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 08:22:31 -0700
Hello, Birders. There's coverage of this matter in the April 2015 Birding. Note 
that Frontiers of Bird ID and Tony Leukering are mentioned in the coverage in 
Birding. Here's a link to the full article (password required): 


http://birdingmagazine.aba.org/i/509920-april-2015/30
Ted FloydLafayette, Boulder County, Colorado, USA





Hi all:

A while back, I was perusing the Sibley Guide and noticed that David had 
illustrated the secondary edgings of Yellow-bellied Flycatcher (YBFL) and the 
Western Flycatchers (WEFL; Cordilleran -- COFL; Pacific-slope -- PSFL) 
differently. As there is so little text in the book, I always find it hard to 
determine whether differences illustrated by David are actual or just chance in 
the way that they were depicted. However, knowing David's attention to detail, 
I usually assume that any differences are real until proven otherwise. This all 
came up due to the recent plethora of reports of YBFL from Colorado. As 
Colorado's (and the West's) birders get more knowledgeable, they have turned 
their attention to Empidonax with a vengeance. However, having more features 
that are useful as separators would be helpful, so I was looking into the 
subject. 


What I found in searching images of the various species on Flickr was that YBFL 
seemed to show a dark bar between the edges of the secondary fringes and the 
lower wing bar that was consistently wide, while those of WEFLs seemed to vary 
quite a bit, but included many individuals/situations where that bar was quite 
narrow. This difference in bar width approaches the difference in this feature 
between Ruby-crowned Kinglet and Hutton's Vireo (a quite useful feature in 
separating these amazingly-similar beasts). I provide numerous links below that 
I believe capture much of the variation in this feature in all three species. 


My questions are:  Have others looked into this?  If so, what was the upshot?

Sincerely,

Tony Leukering
Villas, NJ



YBFL
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sonofjon/5818891819/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9534802 AT N02/3948241405/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seabamirum/2794568346/

and one from New Mexico
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jroldenettel/4978438492/

this is the narrowest that I found
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ed_schneider/3793405727/


COFL with narrow
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jazzymountaingal/3193670411/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/billbev09/3352877088/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/danaman/184919798/

COFL with wide
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chaparralbrad/4777821432/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lvfeltz/5279818561/


PSFL with narrow
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mostlybirds/3534235949/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimscarff/5672856431/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jerryting/4911840003/

PSFL with wide
http://www.flickr.com/photos/magical_light/4618194074/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jerryting/4597721466/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/maholyoak/5851520110/


WEFL with wide
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nightjar/520732458/ 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Lone Swan help
From: Matthew G Hunter <matthewghunter AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 17:58:14 -0700
Regarding the swan on the Lower Umpqua river, western Oregon, I have
obtained better photographs, as well as a marginal but hopefully adequate
recording of individual calls of the bird. I'm still "fishing" for some
opinions on this bird, and would appreciate any analysis.

PHOTOS: https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/sets/72157652342825501/

VOICE RECORDING: www.umpquabirds.org/Swan-Voice_002.mp3

Thank-you,

Matt Hunter
Melrose, OR

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:16 PM, Matthew G Hunter  wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> Following are links to three photos taken by visitors to the lower Umpqua
> River area, Douglas County, (western/coastal) Oregon. A couple of these
> photos are also in the submitted eBird checklist:
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S22917517
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/16618960504/
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/17241411745/
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/17033983827/
>
> I at first agreed with the original report as Trumpeter, as did a couple
> of my Oregon campadres, but now others are leaning toward Tundra.
> Perspectives differ on how round or pointed the forehead feathering is, or
> how pinched or not pinched the feathering is near the eyes, or how broad or
> straight or rounded the bill/cheek feathering is. Bill seems larger from
> the side, not so large from the front. Can this bird be solidly put in one
> category or the other? And for what reasons?
>
> No one has heard the bird vocalize.
>
> Thanks for any perspective.
>
> Matt Hunter
> Melrose, OR
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Progress on a Birders Digital Identification Manual
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 19:00:24 +0100
All,

 

Members of this list may find some recent blog postings of interest. The scope 
of the blog is about as wide as it is likely to get. There are a web of strands 
of investigation now ongoing. These cross in various places but I have kept 
them separate below and as separate pages in the blog. So hopefully people can 
easily find what they have an interest in. Hope people are finding this stuff 
of use. Feedback as always welcome. 


 

BIRDS AND LIGHT

Lighting under foliage canopy – it is about that green light we experience in 
temperate zones right about now. 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/03/birds-and-light-under-foliage-canopy.html 


 

 

COLOUR

Birders Colour Pallet Rev. 2.0 – A pallet designed with birders in mind to 
help with the objective analysis of colour from digital images. 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/03/birders-colour-pallet-rev-20.html 


UV reflectance in Blue Tit Cyanistes caeruleus. A continuation of one of the 
more popular series of postings in this blog. 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/04/colour-blue-tit-uv-reflectance.html 


Colour Profiling – A technique for comparing subtle colour differences 
between different images and individual birds. Chiffchaff forms looked at here. 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/03/chiffchaff-colour-profile-revisited.html 


Colour Saturation Experiments – saturation is interesting as it is not 
measured by the camera. 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/04/colour-bold-and-bland.html 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/04/birders-colour-pallet-colour-saturation.html 


The links between brightness, contrast, saturation and sharpening tools, 
post-processing. All post-processing modifications have a knock-on effect on 
colour. 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/04/birders-colour-pallet-effects-of-image.html 


 

 

FIELD MARKS (A categorisation based on feather structure)

A Summary

 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/02/field-marks-summary-of-field-marks.html 


Fringes, Notches and Tips – i.e. the outer rim

 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/02/field-marks-fringes-notches-and-tips.html 


Feather centres – i.e. from the edge inwards.

 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/02/field-marks-feather-centres-subterminal.html 


Shaft-streaks and Tramlines – i.e. closest to the feather centre.

 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/01/field-marks-shaft-streaks-and-tramlines.html 


Colours

  
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/02/field-marks-colours.html 


 

FIELD MARKS (Analysis - The Bold versus The Bland)

A Summary of the concept that field marks effectively come in two forms, bold 
markings and bland markings. 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/02/field-marks-bold-and-bland.html 


Testing the concept

 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/02/field-marks-field-exposure-test.html 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/02/field-marks-focus-test.html 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/02/field-marks-white-balance-test.html 


 

FIELD MARKS (Lighting Considerations)

Lighting and avian anatomy

 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/01/field-marks-lighting-and-avian-anatomy.html 


Lighting and bareparts

 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/01/field-marks-lighting-and-bare-parts.html 


Shadow Topography – when field marks and contours align we have a potential 
problem 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/04/field-marks-shadow-topography.html 


False Malar Stripe – one of the more prominent false field marks, owing to a 
bald patch, the submalar apterium 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/04/field-marks-false-malar-stripe.html 


False Contrast – Manipulating image contrast can make some field marks go 
away and cause others to magically appear 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/04/field-marks-false-contrast.html 


 

FIELD MARKS (False Field Marks)

A summary

 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/03/field-marks-false-field-marks.html 


 

 

FORENSICS

Lighting and shadow direction – a couple of techniques to gauge lighting 
direction in an image 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/04/forensics-analysis-of-lighting-and.html 


3D Modelling – potential uses in understanding lighting

 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/04/forensics-3d-analysis.html 


 

 

GESTALT

An overview – summarising an area where the blog will be heading

  
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/04/gestalt-overview.html 


 

 

HUMAN BIAS

Colour – “The Dress” Viral Phenomenon, 2015 – an incredible mass 
optical illusion from earlier this year. 


 
 
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/03/the-dress-viral-phenomenon_25.html 


 

Regards

 

Mike O’Keeffe

Ireland

 

  
http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/ 


 

 

 

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Lone Swan help
From: Matthew G Hunter <matthewghunter AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 20:32:21 -0700
Another photo of this bird is at



*http://tinyurl.com/q2la8ml *
You can zoom in a bit to look at the forehead feathering.

Matt

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:16 PM, Matthew G Hunter  wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> Following are links to three photos taken by visitors to the lower Umpqua
> River area, Douglas County, (western/coastal) Oregon. A couple of these
> photos are also in the submitted eBird checklist:
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S22917517
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/16618960504/
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/17241411745/
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/17033983827/
>
> I at first agreed with the original report as Trumpeter, as did a couple
> of my Oregon campadres, but now others are leaning toward Tundra.
> Perspectives differ on how round or pointed the forehead feathering is, or
> how pinched or not pinched the feathering is near the eyes, or how broad or
> straight or rounded the bill/cheek feathering is. Bill seems larger from
> the side, not so large from the front. Can this bird be solidly put in one
> category or the other? And for what reasons?
>
> No one has heard the bird vocalize.
>
> Thanks for any perspective.
>
> Matt Hunter
> Melrose, OR
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Lone Swan help
From: Matthew G Hunter <matthewghunter AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 23:16:06 -0700
Hi Folks,

Following are links to three photos taken by visitors to the lower Umpqua
River area, Douglas County, (western/coastal) Oregon. A couple of these
photos are also in the submitted eBird checklist:
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S22917517

https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/16618960504/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/17241411745/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/17033983827/

I at first agreed with the original report as Trumpeter, as did a couple of
my Oregon campadres, but now others are leaning toward Tundra. Perspectives
differ on how round or pointed the forehead feathering is, or how pinched
or not pinched the feathering is near the eyes, or how broad or straight or
rounded the bill/cheek feathering is. Bill seems larger from the side, not
so large from the front. Can this bird be solidly put in one category or
the other? And for what reasons?

No one has heard the bird vocalize.

Thanks for any perspective.

Matt Hunter
Melrose, OR

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Ten Years of Foolishness
From: Richard Carlson <rccarl AT PACBELL.NET>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 19:21:32 +0000
Would you and Bartelby please translate your cryptic comments for us peasants.
Richard Carlson
Full-time Birder, Biker and Rotarian
Part-time Economist
Tucson, AZ & Lake Tahoe, CA
rccarl AT pacbell.net
Tucson 520-760-4935
Tahoe 530-581-0624
Cell 650-280-2965
      From: Don Richardson 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 11:03 AM
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Ten Years of Foolishness
   
I have made [red] an important point. I do hope you'll keep this promise.   


    On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 12:03 PM, Bartelby Murray 
 wrote: 

  

 10 years of your foolishness indeed...

-Bartelby


The rediscovery of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker was announced ten years ago
> today. In the months and years that followed, much of the debate on the
> Luneau video took place on this forum. It was a waste of time to try to
> identify a bird in such low-quality footage on the basis of field marks
> alone, but a question about that video was resolved using a different
> approach. Were the wings still folded closed when a white object initially
> appeared to the left of the tree trunk? Or was it the underside of the
> right wing? This was an important question. If the original interpretation
> was mistaken, the first two diagnostic features would be eliminated. While
> this issue was being debated unconvincingly in Science, I was consumed with
> my work in the Pearl River. When I finally had a chance to check to see
> what the fuss was all about, a simple way to resolve the issue immediately
> occurred to me. Since the width of the tree trunk was known and the time
> between frames was known, it was a simple matter to estimate the
> acceleration of the white object using an elementary approach in
> computational physics. It's approximately 28 g, where g is the acceleration
> due to gravity. It's also easy to estimate the acceleration of the wingtip
> of a large woodpecker using the known wingspan and flap rate of the
> Pileated Woodpecker. It's approximately 30 g. On the basis of this simple
> analysis, there is no question that the white object must be the underside
> of the right wing. I was surprised that, out of all the people who had
> studied that video, nobody else seemed to have thought to look at the basic
> kinematics. I was even more surprised when I posted a comment about it here
> and then one of the more vocal skeptics remarked that Sibley et al. had
> already made that point, but in fact they hadn't.
>
> The only way to really learn about birds is to observe them in the field.
> While spending the better part of the past ten years in the habitat of the
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker, I had ten sightings and obtained three videos that
> show numerous flights and other behaviors, including some that don't appear
> in the historical film. These videos are much stronger than the Luneau
> video. They contain numerous events involving behaviors and characteristics
> that can only be explained in terms of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Some of
> the events also show field marks, but low-quality video footage usually
> provides other types of information (such as behaviors, flight path, and
> flap rate) much more reliably than field marks. I have previously posted
> comments on these data here, but the analysis and presentation of video
> footage is a non-trivial task. As mentioned above, for example, something
> important was missed in the analysis of the Luneau video despite the fact
> that many people had studied it. I had some assistance in the analysis of
> my data, including by Julie Zickefoose, Bret Tobalske, and Geoff Hill, but
> I have done much of it on my own. I have posted updated analyses of the
> videos and lectures on various issues at the following URL:
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Ten Years of Foolishness



>
> I spent considerable time researching the literature on this species and
> relevant topics such as flight mechanics. I spent some time researching
> threats to habitat and discovered that one of the major river basins within
> the range of this species has been heavily logged in recent years. I
> identified several factors (which should be easy for any experienced bird
> watcher to appreciate) that make these birds exceptionally elusive -- it
> would be unrealistic to expect anyone to obtain a clear photo in time to
> make a difference in the conservation of this species. I identified
> numerous mistakes that have clouded this issue, including some that were
> made decades ago. The lectures are based on a decade of field work and
> research, direct observations, and the strongest collection of data that
> has been obtained on this species in decades. None of this evidence has
> been refuted. I'm sure there are many birders who think they know better
> despite never stepping foot in the habitat of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker,
> and that's one of the reasons why the American bird watching community
> failed to document this species for decades.
> I have essentially completed my work on this issue. So this will probably
> be my final input. I hope that some birders will develop an interest in
> using factors other than field marks for identification and will give the
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker the due diligence that it deserves. After failing
> to document the Ivory-billed Woodpecker for decades, the American bird
> watching community made a much bigger mistake by failing to rise to the
> occasion when others spent years in the field and obtained data that could
> have resolved this issue.



>
> Mike CollinsAlexandria, Virginia
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Ten Years of Foolishness
From: Don Richardson <donrich514 AT SBCGLOBAL.NET>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 18:03:57 +0000
I have made [red] an important point. I do hope you'll keep this promise.   


 On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 12:03 PM, Bartelby Murray 
 wrote: 

   

 10 years of your foolishness indeed...

-Bartelby


The rediscovery of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker was announced ten years ago
> today. In the months and years that followed, much of the debate on the
> Luneau video took place on this forum. It was a waste of time to try to
> identify a bird in such low-quality footage on the basis of field marks
> alone, but a question about that video was resolved using a different
> approach. Were the wings still folded closed when a white object initially
> appeared to the left of the tree trunk? Or was it the underside of the
> right wing? This was an important question. If the original interpretation
> was mistaken, the first two diagnostic features would be eliminated. While
> this issue was being debated unconvincingly in Science, I was consumed with
> my work in the Pearl River. When I finally had a chance to check to see
> what the fuss was all about, a simple way to resolve the issue immediately
> occurred to me. Since the width of the tree trunk was known and the time
> between frames was known, it was a simple matter to estimate the
> acceleration of the white object using an elementary approach in
> computational physics. It's approximately 28 g, where g is the acceleration
> due to gravity. It's also easy to estimate the acceleration of the wingtip
> of a large woodpecker using the known wingspan and flap rate of the
> Pileated Woodpecker. It's approximately 30 g. On the basis of this simple
> analysis, there is no question that the white object must be the underside
> of the right wing. I was surprised that, out of all the people who had
> studied that video, nobody else seemed to have thought to look at the basic
> kinematics. I was even more surprised when I posted a comment about it here
> and then one of the more vocal skeptics remarked that Sibley et al. had
> already made that point, but in fact they hadn't.
>
> The only way to really learn about birds is to observe them in the field.
> While spending the better part of the past ten years in the habitat of the
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker, I had ten sightings and obtained three videos that
> show numerous flights and other behaviors, including some that don't appear
> in the historical film. These videos are much stronger than the Luneau
> video. They contain numerous events involving behaviors and characteristics
> that can only be explained in terms of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Some of
> the events also show field marks, but low-quality video footage usually
> provides other types of information (such as behaviors, flight path, and
> flap rate) much more reliably than field marks. I have previously posted
> comments on these data here, but the analysis and presentation of video
> footage is a non-trivial task. As mentioned above, for example, something
> important was missed in the analysis of the Luneau video despite the fact
> that many people had studied it. I had some assistance in the analysis of
> my data, including by Julie Zickefoose, Bret Tobalske, and Geoff Hill, but
> I have done much of it on my own. I have posted updated analyses of the
> videos and lectures on various issues at the following URL:
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Ten Years of Foolishness



>
> I spent considerable time researching the literature on this species and
> relevant topics such as flight mechanics. I spent some time researching
> threats to habitat and discovered that one of the major river basins within
> the range of this species has been heavily logged in recent years. I
> identified several factors (which should be easy for any experienced bird
> watcher to appreciate) that make these birds exceptionally elusive -- it
> would be unrealistic to expect anyone to obtain a clear photo in time to
> make a difference in the conservation of this species. I identified
> numerous mistakes that have clouded this issue, including some that were
> made decades ago. The lectures are based on a decade of field work and
> research, direct observations, and the strongest collection of data that
> has been obtained on this species in decades. None of this evidence has
> been refuted. I'm sure there are many birders who think they know better
> despite never stepping foot in the habitat of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker,
> and that's one of the reasons why the American bird watching community
> failed to document this species for decades.
> I have essentially completed my work on this issue. So this will probably
> be my final input. I hope that some birders will develop an interest in
> using factors other than field marks for identification and will give the
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker the due diligence that it deserves. After failing
> to document the Ivory-billed Woodpecker for decades, the American bird
> watching community made a much bigger mistake by failing to rise to the
> occasion when others spent years in the field and obtained data that could
> have resolved this issue.



>
> Mike CollinsAlexandria, Virginia
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Ten Years of Foolishness
From: Bartelby Murray <bartelby.murray AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:18:12 -0600
10 years of your foolishness indeed...

-Bartelby


The rediscovery of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker was announced ten years ago
> today. In the months and years that followed, much of the debate on the
> Luneau video took place on this forum. It was a waste of time to try to
> identify a bird in such low-quality footage on the basis of field marks
> alone, but a question about that video was resolved using a different
> approach. Were the wings still folded closed when a white object initially
> appeared to the left of the tree trunk? Or was it the underside of the
> right wing? This was an important question. If the original interpretation
> was mistaken, the first two diagnostic features would be eliminated. While
> this issue was being debated unconvincingly in Science, I was consumed with
> my work in the Pearl River. When I finally had a chance to check to see
> what the fuss was all about, a simple way to resolve the issue immediately
> occurred to me. Since the width of the tree trunk was known and the time
> between frames was known, it was a simple matter to estimate the
> acceleration of the white object using an elementary approach in
> computational physics. It's approximately 28 g, where g is the acceleration
> due to gravity. It's also easy to estimate the acceleration of the wingtip
> of a large woodpecker using the known wingspan and flap rate of the
> Pileated Woodpecker. It's approximately 30 g. On the basis of this simple
> analysis, there is no question that the white object must be the underside
> of the right wing. I was surprised that, out of all the people who had
> studied that video, nobody else seemed to have thought to look at the basic
> kinematics. I was even more surprised when I posted a comment about it here
> and then one of the more vocal skeptics remarked that Sibley et al. had
> already made that point, but in fact they hadn't.
>
> The only way to really learn about birds is to observe them in the field.
> While spending the better part of the past ten years in the habitat of the
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker, I had ten sightings and obtained three videos that
> show numerous flights and other behaviors, including some that don't appear
> in the historical film. These videos are much stronger than the Luneau
> video. They contain numerous events involving behaviors and characteristics
> that can only be explained in terms of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Some of
> the events also show field marks, but low-quality video footage usually
> provides other types of information (such as behaviors, flight path, and
> flap rate) much more reliably than field marks. I have previously posted
> comments on these data here, but the analysis and presentation of video
> footage is a non-trivial task. As mentioned above, for example, something
> important was missed in the analysis of the Luneau video despite the fact
> that many people had studied it. I had some assistance in the analysis of
> my data, including by Julie Zickefoose, Bret Tobalske, and Geoff Hill, but
> I have done much of it on my own. I have posted updated analyses of the
> videos and lectures on various issues at the following URL:
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Ten Years of Foolishness



>
> I spent considerable time researching the literature on this species and
> relevant topics such as flight mechanics. I spent some time researching
> threats to habitat and discovered that one of the major river basins within
> the range of this species has been heavily logged in recent years. I
> identified several factors (which should be easy for any experienced bird
> watcher to appreciate) that make these birds exceptionally elusive -- it
> would be unrealistic to expect anyone to obtain a clear photo in time to
> make a difference in the conservation of this species. I identified
> numerous mistakes that have clouded this issue, including some that were
> made decades ago. The lectures are based on a decade of field work and
> research, direct observations, and the strongest collection of data that
> has been obtained on this species in decades. None of this evidence has
> been refuted. I'm sure there are many birders who think they know better
> despite never stepping foot in the habitat of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker,
> and that's one of the reasons why the American bird watching community
> failed to document this species for decades.
> I have essentially completed my work on this issue. So this will probably
> be my final input. I hope that some birders will develop an interest in
> using factors other than field marks for identification and will give the
> Ivory-billed Woodpecker the due diligence that it deserves. After failing
> to document the Ivory-billed Woodpecker for decades, the American bird
> watching community made a much bigger mistake by failing to rise to the
> occasion when others spent years in the field and obtained data that could
> have resolved this issue.



>
> Mike CollinsAlexandria, Virginia
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Ten Years of Foolishness
From: "Michael D. Collins" <mike AT FISHCROW.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 14:36:16 +0000
The rediscovery of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker was announced ten years ago 
today. In the months and years that followed, much of the debate on the Luneau 
video took place on this forum. It was a waste of time to try to identify a 
bird in such low-quality footage on the basis of field marks alone, but a 
question about that video was resolved using a different approach. Were the 
wings still folded closed when a white object initially appeared to the left of 
the tree trunk? Or was it the underside of the right wing? This was an 
important question. If the original interpretation was mistaken, the first two 
diagnostic features would be eliminated. While this issue was being debated 
unconvincingly in Science, I was consumed with my work in the Pearl River. When 
I finally had a chance to check to see what the fuss was all about, a simple 
way to resolve the issue immediately occurred to me. Since the width of the 
tree trunk was known and the time between frames was known, it was a simple 
matter to estimate the acceleration of the white object using an elementary 
approach in computational physics. It's approximately 28 g, where g is the 
acceleration due to gravity. It's also easy to estimate the acceleration of the 
wingtip of a large woodpecker using the known wingspan and flap rate of the 
Pileated Woodpecker. It's approximately 30 g. On the basis of this simple 
analysis, there is no question that the white object must be the underside of 
the right wing. I was surprised that, out of all the people who had studied 
that video, nobody else seemed to have thought to look at the basic kinematics. 
I was even more surprised when I posted a comment about it here and then one of 
the more vocal skeptics remarked that Sibley et al. had already made that 
point, but in fact they hadn't.   

The only way to really learn about birds is to observe them in the field. While 
spending the better part of the past ten years in the habitat of the 
Ivory-billed Woodpecker, I had ten sightings and obtained three videos that 
show numerous flights and other behaviors, including some that don't appear in 
the historical film. These videos are much stronger than the Luneau video. They 
contain numerous events involving behaviors and characteristics that can only 
be explained in terms of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker. Some of the events also 
show field marks, but low-quality video footage usually provides other types of 
information (such as behaviors, flight path, and flap rate) much more reliably 
than field marks. I have previously posted comments on these data here, but the 
analysis and presentation of video footage is a non-trivial task. As mentioned 
above, for example, something important was missed in the analysis of the 
Luneau video despite the fact that many people had studied it. I had some 
assistance in the analysis of my data, including by Julie Zickefoose, Bret 
Tobalske, and Geoff Hill, but I have done much of it on my own. I have posted 
updated analyses of the videos and lectures on various issues at the following 
URL: 

Ivory-billed Woodpecker: Ten Years of Foolishness

I spent considerable time researching the literature on this species and 
relevant topics such as flight mechanics. I spent some time researching threats 
to habitat and discovered that one of the major river basins within the range 
of this species has been heavily logged in recent years. I identified several 
factors (which should be easy for any experienced bird watcher to appreciate) 
that make these birds exceptionally elusive -- it would be unrealistic to 
expect anyone to obtain a clear photo in time to make a difference in the 
conservation of this species. I identified numerous mistakes that have clouded 
this issue, including some that were made decades ago. The lectures are based 
on a decade of field work and research, direct observations, and the strongest 
collection of data that has been obtained on this species in decades. None of 
this evidence has been refuted. I'm sure there are many birders who think they 
know better despite never stepping foot in the habitat of the Ivory-billed 
Woodpecker, and that's one of the reasons why the American bird watching 
community failed to document this species for decades.  

I have essentially completed my work on this issue. So this will probably be my 
final input. I hope that some birders will develop an interest in using 
factors other than field marks for identification and will give the 
Ivory-billed Woodpecker the due diligence that it deserves. After failing to 
document the Ivory-billed Woodpecker for decades, the American bird watching 
community made a much bigger mistake by failing to rise to the occasion when 
others spent years in the field and obtained data that could have resolved this 
issue.   


Mike CollinsAlexandria, Virginia

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Possible LIEG X SNEG Hybrid
From: Harvey Tomlinson <ShearH2Os AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 07:19:12 -0400
Hi All,
I photographed an odd Egret at Edwin B Forsythe (Brig) New Jersey last  
Tuesday that I believe at the very least is a hybrid LIEG x SNEG.
It's head is a bit shaggy, but the two long lanceolated plumes are very  
distinctive. It's body, as seen in pic 2, is bulkier/heavier than the Snowy's  
around it and based on the feathered tibia area the legs are stouter. I  
couldn't tell height because of varying water levels. It was more "stoic" than 
 the numerous Snowy's around it and would not shuffle around like the  
Snowy's with the slamming of car doors although that's what finally put it  to 
flight.
Thoughts on this bird would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shearh2o/sets/72157649834748283/
Thanks and Good Birding,
Harvey Tomlinson
NJ

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – A...
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 11:48:58 -0400
In a message dated 4/18/2015 12:47:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
chucao AT coastside.net writes:

Where  was this Cayenne you mention on the Pacific? 
Alvaro - I fond it but now I see why I did not take a note - it is too  
general note; I do not know who was copy and paste from who
 

http://www.planetofbirds.com/charadriiformes-sternidae-cayenne-tern-sterna-e
urygnatha

The  similar 'Cayenne' Tern breeds on islands in the southern Caribbean Sea 
and along  the Atlantic coast of South America, and has been recorded 
several times along  the Atlantic coast of North America and once along the 
Pacific coast of  Colombia.
 
 
 

http://secrb.trinidadbirding.com/idsandwichcayennetern.html
 

The similar ‘Cayenne’ Tern breeds on islands in the southern Caribbean  
Sea and along the Atlantic coast of South America and has been recorded 
several  times along the Atlantic coast of North America and once along the 
Pacific coast  of Colombia
 
 
 
https://books.google.com/books?id=H9INVOMUgOAC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=cayenne
+tern+pacific+record+colombia&source=bl&ots=9VVJbYArzt&sig=qB9_sUg6TzBpiCXx1
uwO_M7rO5Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DXoyVdHZJ5H1oASpwIHoBQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=
cayenne%20tern%20pacific%20record%20colombia&f=false
 
 S eurygnatha (Cayenne Tern) of southern Caribbean and Atlantic coasts  of 
South ... (there are several records from northern Colombia), 
 
 
Mark B Bartosik
 
 
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: paper on hybrids in Mexico - Terns that is
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 05:43:27 -0400
Alvaro,
 
I already posted my opinion about your photo in earlier reply to Cayenne  
thread about possibly back light effects etc.
 
But I had my folder open with Cabot’s Terns together with Cayenne Terns in  
the same flock. One of the first I checked matches yellow/black proportions 
-  look here
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159777766
 
And goddess forbid do not think I tried to say it is Cayenne - as I already 
 said many Cabot’s have prominent yellow tip.
 

Mark B Bartosik
 
 
In a message dated 4/18/2015 1:07:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET writes:



Easterners - what do you think about a Sandwich with such a  great deal of
yellow on the bill tip such as this one? I don't know what  this is, but it
is just a bit more extreme, and in breeding plumage, but  similar to the
oddball I photographed here in Half Moon Bay which I linked  to in an 
earlier
message. I have not looked to see if this was accepted by  the CBRC.  

http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=169
  &fullsize=1



good  birding

Alvaro



Alvaro  Jaramillo

alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com




Archives:  http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – A...
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 04:33:43 -0400
Alvaro,
 
You are not alone - I am lost a bit too. Perhaps it is very late and I have 
 very bad weather outside -  lost power a few times so my writing was  
distracted as well.
 
“But to answer your question. I don’t know if anything is published on 
dark bill markings on Elegant Terns. But I know they exist because I see them 

(sometimes multiple in one flock) both here in California and in Chile on 
my  annual trips there. I have been seeing them for ages, they are actually 
pretty  frequent, not at all a rarity.”
 
So, nothing was published I assume - wonder why? Even that I do trust your  
observations I always like to depend on something solid that was published. 
I  find hard to believe that important thing like that is not even 
mentioned in major publications/books. Well this gives me a better picture how 

little really  was done to study those birds.
 
“If I understand you right, I should put that forward as a Cayenne  Tern?”
 
Not sure what you mean as I did not offer any opinion on that tern - in  
fact I wanted to think about it as I see sort of mixed traits of Elegant and  
Cayenne; I do not know nothing about this find details -  you know more;  
was this tern associated with other terns, how was reacting etc.
 

“As breeders Elegant and Sandwich are not birds that overlap as  breeders 
regularly, so I lost you here where you talk about overlap in Central  
America.”
 
Perhaps my fault - I was talking about sighting records (did not say  
nothing about breeding) - and I said I want to look more into it (somehow eBird 

was choking when I was accessing specific data for different months, lost  
electricity power a few times, so I gave up)
 
“As breeders Elegant and Sandwich are not birds that overlap as breeders  
regularly, so I lost you here where you talk about overlap in Central America.
” 
 
Now I lost you a bit. So do they do it irregularly? If so this is enough.  
Again I was talking about overlap of sighting records. 
 
“There have been Sandwich x Elegants documented in California, but in my  
opinion most of the presumed hybrids from Isla Raza, Mexico are Elegants with 
 dark on the bill. “
 
Here I think we have similar feelings. I am familiar with this paper; had  
it open when wrote my reply but did not say anything as I do have mix 
reactions. I do not know nothing about these authors or this particular journal 

but have  seen some heresies published about behavior of birds in South 
America.
 
“Where was this Cayenne you mention on the Pacific? “
 
I will have to look but I remember reading a note that one vagrant was  
reported there. All yellow-bill or not I do not remember or it was not  
mentioned. 
 

“Also where is this documented case of hybridization in Pacific South  
America. “
 
You already mentioned case in California and I was referring to the paper  
we both dislike so my fault I did not mention that fact.
 
Now about your photo - it seems to be back lighted so transparent part of  
the yellow bill tip can create some extra effect and perhaps concentration 
of  black pigment in that area near the tip that normally looks black has 
lower  concentration of pigment (and no bone inside) than other parts of the 
bill (just  a thought). On the other hand I do not find this yellow tip so 
large to loose  sleep over it; some Cabot’s can have it quite prominent. 
 
Mark B Bartosik
 
 
In a message dated 4/18/2015 12:47:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
chucao AT coastside.net writes:

 
Mark 
You lost me a bit in your message. But to answer your question. I don’t 
know  if anything is published on dark bill markings on Elegant Terns. But I 
know  they exist because I see them (sometimes multiple in one flock) both 
here in  California and in Chile on my annual trips there. I have been seeing 
them for  ages, they are actually pretty frequent, not at all a rarity. That 
one in my  photos is the most extreme example. If I understand you right, I 
should put  that forward as a Cayenne Tern?  
As  breeders Elegant and Sandwich are not birds that overlap as breeders  
regularly, so I lost you here where you talk about overlap in Central 
America. There have been Sandwich x Elegants documented in California, but in 
my 

opinion most of the presumed hybrids from Isla Raza, Mexico are Elegants 
with dark on the bill. Where was this Cayenne you mention on the Pacific? Also 

 where is this documented case of hybridization in Pacific South America. I 
am  really confused here because Elegants do not breed in South America, 
and  neither do Sandwich on the Pacific.  
Alvaro   
 
Alvaro  Jaramillo 
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com 
www.alvarosadventures.com
 
 
From: MBB22222 AT aol.com  [mailto:MBB22222 AT aol.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 9:29  PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Cc: chucao AT coastside.net;  shaibal.mitra AT csi.cuny.edu
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Presumably 2  Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne 
hybrids) –  A...

 
Hi  Alvaro, Shai and All,
 

 
Now I  should to thank you both , Alvaro and Shai, for laborious replies. 
In fact it  will be easier for me to discuss some points base on statements 
in your both  replies. 
 

 
Alvaro,  if I understand correctly will refuse to accept any vagrant 
Cayenne-type tern that doesn’t have pure yellow bill (still better than 
Florida 

Record Committee  with strong vote 7-0 against any vagrant). Obviously Shai 
would accept one as  he published record of one as Cayenne Tern. Let me say 
it first that I  strongly support his decision. By publishing some but not 
all records we are  creating an illusion that records are scarcer then they 
really are. Here is  description from his paper:
 

 
“The  bill appeared very long, much slimmer than that of Royal Tern, seemed 
to droop  toward the tip, and its overall color was a cold greenish-yellow, 
devoid of  any orange or red tones. The basal fifth and the distal third of 
the bill were  purely this color, as were the top of the culmen, both 
cutting edges, and the lower edge of the lower mandible. In between these 
areas, 

i.e., in the middle  portions of each mandible, were several blackish-gray 
marks. These marks were  not very extensive and were most obvious when the 
bill was in full profile,  but in some views, they were barely discernible.”
 

 
So  definitely this Cayenne bill had some black bill coloration. I think 
that if  we start to try to divide intermediates in groups of less and more 
black  pigment showing on the bill we could create a bigger chaos.  Like we 
all  mentioned (Alvaro even stressed it out strongly) Caribbean population has 
 clinal black pigment distribution so it does not matter much how much 
pigment is there. As long as there is less than in Cabot’s bill very likely 
we 

deal  with either intermediates (Cayenne) or intergrades (Cayenne X Cabot’
s).   To take it farther, as Shai wrote, plausibly they can be rare local 
variants -  something never documented yet but perhaps possible. So with all 
these possibilities, even that not equally probable, no single individual with 

black  bill areas can be safely classified as a pure Cayenne, vagrant or 
not (again  to some even pure yellow-billed Cayenne cannot be safely 
identified as such). Following this rule will lead to not accept many records 
to be 

published,  Shai’s one included. And this, IMHO, is wrong. It would be 
better to correct them (misidentified records) in the future when we will 
better 

understand  genetic of these two taxa. For now when we are still looking 
for answers to  (too) many questions the published data can only help.  All 
these  unaccepted/non-confirmed records are just buried somewhere and can only 
add to  confusion when a new person start searching for information.  
 

 
Now  Alvaro, can you please refer to me the published papers about Elegant 
Tern  (pure, not a Cabot’s X Elegant) having black pigment in their bills. 
You  wrote:
 

 
“Two  things go on here. One is that some of Thalasseus have variable bill 
colors.  The tendency is for pale billed populations (Cayenne and Elegant) 
to show  black on the bill every so often.”
 

 
From  what I know the hypothesis now is that probably both Cayenne 
intermediates and Cabot’s X Cayenne integrates can show black on their bills 
and 

there are only  Cabot’ X Elegant intergrades that have black on the bills.  
Never mind I  see that as I scrolled down your post you believe that Elegant 
integrates are  in your opinion Elegant variants and all papers are probably 
in error.   Interesting; quite well documented in Florida and on Pacific (in 
South  America, not California) side both Sandwich and Elegant population 
are overlapping year around in many places especially in Central America – I 

will  look at this data later as this is a new approach to me.  BTW there 
is at  least one record of Cayenne vagrant to Pacific  side.
 

 
As I  could see under the photo you posted people still associate pink 
flush with  Elegant Tern. Here is a link to Cabot’s photo (taken recently as 
many of them sport pink flush now) that easy matches or even exceed pink flush 

in Elegant  plumage and can be seen in all underparts; so, but only 
sometimes, can be seen in Royal plumage as well - - I made a composite of these 

two examples. I  cannot guarantee how the image is going to display on some 
not calibrated  monitors but in the nature individuals like that look quite  
impressive.
 

 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159776665
 

At  the end I would like to stress out that it seems that there is not 
enough data now to draw any final conclusion, so we all might be wrong in some 

aspects.  
 

 
Thanks  for interesting discussion
 

 
Mark B  Bartosik



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: paper on hybrids in Mexico - Terns that is
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 23:05:17 -0700
Folks

 

  In my opinion, this paper should never have been published in its current
form. Here are various photos of presumed hybrids from Mexico. All of these
birds look like variant Elegant Terns, I am surprised they see so few in the
colony to be frank given how many I see up here. I am quite sure these are
not hybrids (structurally there is nothing wrong with them, no intermediacy
towards Sandwich even though they suggest there is..there isn't!), and there
is no evidence of hybridization published, no pure Sandwich in the area. The
only evidence is dark on the bill! I am not sure why it didn't occur to them
to test instead the hypothesis that dark on the bill exists in Elegant
Terns!! 

http://www.marineornithology.org/PDF/40_1/40_1_25-29.pdf

 

Easterners - what do you think about a Sandwich with such a great deal of
yellow on the bill tip such as this one? I don't know what this is, but it
is just a bit more extreme, and in breeding plumage, but similar to the
oddball I photographed here in Half Moon Bay which I linked to in an earlier
message. I have not looked to see if this was accepted by the CBRC. 

http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=169
 &fullsize=1

 

good birding

Alvaro

 

Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Presumably 2 Caye nne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – A...
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 22:47:23 -0700
Mark

 

 You lost me a bit in your message. But to answer your question. I don’t know 
if anything is published on dark bill markings on Elegant Terns. But I know 
they exist because I see them (sometimes multiple in one flock) both here in 
California and in Chile on my annual trips there. I have been seeing them for 
ages, they are actually pretty frequent, not at all a rarity. That one in my 
photos is the most extreme example. If I understand you right, I should put 
that forward as a Cayenne Tern? 


 As breeders Elegant and Sandwich are not birds that overlap as breeders 
regularly, so I lost you here where you talk about overlap in Central America. 
There have been Sandwich x Elegants documented in California, but in my opinion 
most of the presumed hybrids from Isla Raza, Mexico are Elegants with dark on 
the bill. Where was this Cayenne you mention on the Pacific? Also where is this 
documented case of hybridization in Pacific South America. I am really confused 
here because Elegants do not breed in South America, and neither do Sandwich on 
the Pacific. 


 

Alvaro 

 

Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com

 

From: MBB22222 AT aol.com [mailto:MBB22222 AT aol.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 9:29 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Cc: chucao AT coastside.net; shaibal.mitra AT csi.cuny.edu
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne 
hybrids) – A... 


 

Hi Alvaro, Shai and All,

 

Now I should to thank you both , Alvaro and Shai, for laborious replies. In 
fact it will be easier for me to discuss some points base on statements in your 
both replies. 


 

Alvaro, if I understand correctly will refuse to accept any vagrant 
Cayenne-type tern that doesn’t have pure yellow bill (still better than 
Florida Record Committee with strong vote 7-0 against any vagrant). Obviously 
Shai would accept one as he published record of one as Cayenne Tern. Let me say 
it first that I strongly support his decision. By publishing some but not all 
records we are creating an illusion that records are scarcer then they really 
are. Here is description from his paper: 


 

“The bill appeared very long, much slimmer than that of Royal Tern, seemed to 
droop toward the tip, and its overall color was a cold greenish-yellow, devoid 
of any orange or red tones. The basal fifth and the distal third of the bill 
were purely this color, as were the top of the culmen, both cutting edges, and 
the lower edge of the lower mandible. In between these areas, i.e., in the 
middle portions of each mandible, were several blackish-gray marks. These marks 
were not very extensive and were most obvious when the bill was in full 
profile, but in some views, they were barely discernible.” 


 

So definitely this Cayenne bill had some black bill coloration. I think that if 
we start to try to divide intermediates in groups of less and more black 
pigment showing on the bill we could create a bigger chaos. Like we all 
mentioned (Alvaro even stressed it out strongly) Caribbean population has 
clinal black pigment distribution so it does not matter much how much pigment 
is there. As long as there is less than in Cabot’s bill very likely we deal 
with either intermediates (Cayenne) or intergrades (Cayenne X Cabot’s). To 
take it farther, as Shai wrote, plausibly they can be rare local variants - 
something never documented yet but perhaps possible. So with all these 
possibilities, even that not equally probable, no single individual with black 
bill areas can be safely classified as a pure Cayenne, vagrant or not (again to 
some even pure yellow-billed Cayenne cannot be safely identified as such). 
Following this rule will lead to not accept many records to be published, 
Shai’s one included. And this, IMHO, is wrong. It would be better to correct 
them (misidentified records) in the future when we will better understand 
genetic of these two taxa. For now when we are still looking for answers to 
(too) many questions the published data can only help. All these 
unaccepted/non-confirmed records are just buried somewhere and can only add to 
confusion when a new person start searching for information. 


 

Now Alvaro, can you please refer to me the published papers about Elegant Tern 
(pure, not a Cabot’s X Elegant) having black pigment in their bills. You 
wrote: 


 

“Two things go on here. One is that some of Thalasseus have variable bill 
colors. The tendency is for pale billed populations (Cayenne and Elegant) to 
show black on the bill every so often.” 


 

From what I know the hypothesis now is that probably both Cayenne intermediates 
and Cabot’s X Cayenne integrates can show black on their bills and there are 
only Cabot’ X Elegant intergrades that have black on the bills. Never mind I 
see that as I scrolled down your post you believe that Elegant integrates are 
in your opinion Elegant variants and all papers are probably in error. 
Interesting; quite well documented in Florida and on Pacific (in South America, 
not California) side both Sandwich and Elegant population are overlapping year 
around in many places especially in Central America – I will look at this 
data later as this is a new approach to me. BTW there is at least one record of 
Cayenne vagrant to Pacific side. 


 

As I could see under the photo you posted people still associate pink flush 
with Elegant Tern. Here is a link to Cabot’s photo (taken recently as many of 
them sport pink flush now) that easy matches or even exceed pink flush in 
Elegant plumage and can be seen in all underparts; so, but only sometimes, can 
be seen in Royal plumage as well - - I made a composite of these two examples. 
I cannot guarantee how the image is going to display on some not calibrated 
monitors but in the nature individuals like that look quite impressive. 


 

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159776665


At the end I would like to stress out that it seems that there is not enough 
data now to draw any final conclusion, so we all might be wrong in some 
aspects. 


 

Thanks for interesting discussion

 

Mark B Bartosik


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – A...
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 00:29:08 -0400
Hi Alvaro, Shai and All,
 
Now I should to thank you both , Alvaro and Shai, for laborious replies. In 
 fact it will be easier for me to discuss some points base on statements in 
your  both replies. 
 
Alvaro, if I understand correctly will refuse to accept any vagrant  
Cayenne-type tern that doesn’t have pure yellow bill (still better than 
Florida 

Record Committee with strong vote 7-0 against any vagrant). Obviously Shai 
would  accept one as he published record of one as Cayenne Tern. Let me say it 
first  that I strongly support his decision. By publishing some but not all 
records we  are creating an illusion that records are scarcer then they 
really are. Here is  description from his paper:
 
“The bill appeared very long, much slimmer than that of Royal Tern, seemed  
to droop toward the tip, and its overall color was a cold greenish-yellow,  
devoid of any orange or red tones. The basal fifth and the distal third of 
the  bill were purely this color, as were the top of the culmen, both 
cutting edges, and the lower edge of the lower mandible. In between these 
areas, 

i.e., in the  middle portions of each mandible, were several blackish-gray 
marks. These marks  were not very extensive and were most obvious when the 
bill was in full profile,  but in some views, they were barely discernible.”
 
So definitely this Cayenne bill had some black bill coloration. I think  
that if we start to try to divide intermediates in groups of less and more 
black pigment showing on the bill we could create a bigger chaos. Like we all 

 mentioned (Alvaro even stressed it out strongly) Caribbean population has 
clinal  black pigment distribution so it does not matter much how much 
pigment is there. As long as there is less than in Cabot’s bill very likely 
we 

deal with either intermediates (Cayenne) or intergrades (Cayenne X Cabot’s). 

 To take it  farther, as Shai wrote, plausibly they can be rare local 
variants - something  never documented yet but perhaps possible. So with all 
these possibilities, even that not equally probable, no single individual with 

black bill areas can be  safely classified as a pure Cayenne, vagrant or not 
(again to some even pure  yellow-billed Cayenne cannot be safely identified 
as such). Following this rule  will lead to not accept many records to be 
published, Shai’s one included. And this, IMHO, is wrong. It would be better 

to correct them (misidentified records)  in the future when we will better 
understand genetic of these two taxa. For now  when we are still looking for 
answers to (too) many questions the published data  can only help.  All 
these unaccepted/non-confirmed records are just buried  somewhere and can only 
add to confusion when a new person start searching for  information. 
 
Now Alvaro, can you please refer to me the published papers about Elegant  
Tern (pure, not a Cabot’s X Elegant) having black pigment in their bills. 
You  wrote:
 
“Two things go on here. One is that some of Thalasseus have variable bill  
colors. The tendency is for pale billed populations (Cayenne and Elegant) to 
 show black on the bill every so often.”
 
From what I know the hypothesis now is that probably both Cayenne  
intermediates and Cabot’s X Cayenne integrates can show black on their bills 
and 

there are only Cabot’ X Elegant intergrades that have black on the bills.   
Never mind I see that as I scrolled down your post you believe that Elegant  
integrates are in your opinion Elegant variants and all papers are probably 
in  error.  Interesting; quite well documented in Florida and on Pacific (in  
South America, not California) side both Sandwich and Elegant population 
are overlapping year around in many places especially in Central America – I 

will  look at this data later as this is a new approach to me.  BTW there is 
at  least one record of Cayenne vagrant to Pacific side.
 
As I could see under the photo you posted people still associate pink flush 
 with Elegant Tern. Here is a link to Cabot’s photo (taken recently as many 
of  them sport pink flush now) that easy matches or even exceed pink flush 
in  Elegant plumage and can be seen in all underparts; so, but only 
sometimes, can be seen in Royal plumage as well - - I made a composite of these 
two 

examples. I  cannot guarantee how the image is going to display on some not 
calibrated  monitors but in the nature individuals like that look quite 
impressive.
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159776665

At the end I would like to stress out that it seems that there is not  
enough data now to draw any final conclusion, so we all might be wrong in some 

aspects. 
 
Thanks for interesting discussion
 
Mark B Bartosik

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Non Breeding
From: Timothy Reeves <northern.parula AT ROCKETMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 18:39:43 -0700
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Cayenne Terns
From: Shaibal Mitra <Shaibal.Mitra AT CSI.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 19:15:57 +0000
Hi Mark and all,

As Alvaro notes, some degree of variation is to be expected in any large 
population, and the degree of variation itself varies among populations. 
Comparing the frequencies of scarce to rare variants across multiple 
populations on different continents is bound to be difficult, but I also agree 
with Alvaro's basic summary of the situation in the smaller Thalasseus: 


(1) southern eurygnatha (which breed during the Austral summer and aren't even 
suspected of exchanging genes with northern Cayenne Terns) usually show wholly 
yellow bills, but they nevertheless include variants with dark bill elements 
relatively often--these are mentioned by all the authors who have tackled the 
issue. Indeed, as stated in Mitra and Buckley (2000*), "Buckley and Buckley 
(1984) assembled evidence documenting variation in bill coloration within 
populations of eurygnatha from essentially all portions of the taxons known 
range, including the larger-billed, longer-winged, austral-summer breeding 
populations in Brazil (Sick and Leo 1965), Uruguay (Escalante 1970), and 
Argentina (Voous 1968). Birds in all of these populations showed yellowish 
bills with varying amounts of dark blotching. In view of the great distance 
from the nearest colonies of acuflavida, the lack of exchange of banded 
individuals, the contrast in breeding seasons (austral vs. boreal summers),! 

 and the suite of structural differences between the austral populations and 
typical acuflavida, this variation cannot reasonably be attributed to 
introgression of genes for acuflavida-like bill color." 


(2) in contrast, northern acuflavida is almost always black-billed after early 
immaturity, such that as recently as 2000, P. A. Buckley and I were unable to 
find even one documented instance of a breeding adult acuflavida with extensive 
yellow elements on the bill beyond the usual yellow tip--just a very instances 
of mere traces of yellow along the gape or the edges of the mandibular ramus. 
This certainly does not mean that variants more closely approaching the 
appearance of eurygnatha never occur, but the general failure to detect them 
given a huge amount of banding and general birding effort implies that they 
must be near the greatest extremity of rarity. Thus Mark's birds are of the 
greatest interest, representing something that people have been looking for for 
a long time without success. 


But even so, these genuinely intermediate-looking birds appear to be rarer in 
the USA than are birds closely resembling eurygnatha, of which there are on the 
order of ten documented records (maybe a few more--I haven't looked into this 
in a few years). It is for this reason that I still think that it is better to 
regard such birds as likely vagrants, rather than as local variants. This 
course has the operational advantage of facilitating record-keeping. 


(3) the situation in the Caribbean is exceedingly complex and furthermore very 
dynamic. Many of the intermediate-looking individuals in that region are surely 
intergrades, but there's every reason to expect that this phenotype should 
occur (a) regularly among more or less pure Cayenne Tern colonies there--at 
least as frequently as they occur among Austral breeders, but probably much 
more frequently, owing to gene flow from acuflavida; and (b) increasingly 
frequently among the southernmost more or less pure colonies of 
acuflavida--i.e., much more frequently than they have historically among 
northern acuflavida. 


Thus, I would argue that the status of Mark's birds is really ambiguous. They 
could very easily be intergrades from the Caribbean; but they could easily be 
vagrant Cayenne Terns because, especially in the Caribbean, bill pattern 
appears to be relatively variable, even apart from recent intergradation; and 
finally, they could plausibly be the rare local variants of acuflavida that we 
expect must occur at some rate--a rate that appears to have been exceedingly 
low historically, but a rate that might perhaps be increasing. 


*This paper can be accessed at:

http://www.nybirds.org/KBsearch/y2000v50n4/y2000v50n4p358-367mitra.pdf#

Shai Mitra
Bay Shore, NY



________________________________
Register today for Curtains Up! the inaugural presentation of the Geraldo 
Rivera Lecture Series> 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: photos of Cayenne Terns from Brazil
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 11:14:44 -0700
By the way, there are tons of photos on wikiaves of Cayenne Terns, and you
can appreciate the variation in bills even in southern Brazilian
populations. 

http://www.wikiaves.com.br/556161&t=s&s=10381&p=2

 

Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – A...
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:33:38 -0400
Hi All,
 
Thanks for all comments especially Alvaro’s one who took a lot of effort to 
 present his point. Before I respond to some of his thoughts I want to 
point a  few extra observations first so these won't get lost in the text.

We do not have banding project studies that I am aware of to show any  
example of Cabot’s like parents producing intermediates on nesting grounds in 

North America but only from time to time very rare records of such 
intermediates showing up here and there. The Martin Reid’s page is a great 
example – 

from what  I can see he takes a lot of effort to collect photographs of 
interesting birds not only found by him but also photos taken by others and he 

seems to spend a  lot of time trying to obtain photos of birds found by 
others. So we can say his  photo collection is above the average in sample 
size. In all his effort for so  many years he produced one record which I will 
discuss in the  moment.   I will not go too deep into juvenile Cabot’s Tern 
bill  coloration as anybody can produce many photos of great variation 
including  practically all-yellow bills in the early stages and having 
considerably large amount of yellow in later stages. The question is how long 
some 

individuals can  retain this extra yellow in bill areas what normally become 
black. Something  what I did not include in my original post (already long 
enough) was an interesting observation that in ‘typical’ intermediates from 

Cayenne population  (again see extensive collection of photos in Hayes, 2004) 
proximal and medial  parts of tomia and close area around of outside bill 
(in both maxilla and mandible) – especially medial parts – are black. This 

coloration pattern applied  to my Cayenne-type turn #1 (and obviously with 
so much black in the bill to bird  #2 as well); on both sides of the bill 
even that one side has much less black than the other one. Now if you take a 

look at the Reid’s tern photo  you will see that tomium (maxilla) and 
narrow proximal bill area are yellow. These pattern generally matches bill 
color 

changes in juveniles that can be seen  in juvenile Cabot’s he included on 
the same page. But we do not have too many  examples of intermediate birds 
from North America to draw any serious   onclusion. So how long bill 
coloration transition can last? Again we do not have studies on banded 
Cabot’s Terns 

of known age.  My conclusion is that indeed  here, in his example, we might 
have a case of prolonged bill coloration  transition. And again I would 
like to see this bird banded to know its exact age and to see what will happen 

in the future to have a base for any serious  conclusion. Also, a great 
moment to mention this, I have a problem with so called eBird ‘confirmed 
record 

’ policy. Unfortunately these records do not show  up but I will bet there 
are many interesting records buried there that I would  love to see even 
just for comparison. Terns seem to generate very low interest so nobody really 

cares. On the other hand gulls are quite popular and  misidentified gulls 
are ‘confirmed’ quite often. Just take a look at the adult California Gull 

recently reported in Galveston and even with misidentified photo  it was ‘
confirmed’ so not only every day alert include records of this bird but,  I 
will bet you again, many people take special trip to try to see it. I take a  
Galveston ferry trips on regular basis so see if this American Herring Gull  
(true with odd leg coloration but still not matching yellow-greenish CAGU 
legs;  and other traits as well) do not match quite perfectly photos and 
descriptions  entered in eBird as a CAGU. 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/american_herring_gull_with_odd_leg_color
 
If seems that I overestimated my time available to write this reply; I will 
 need to do a second part as I value Alvaro’s reply and want to discuss a 
few  points with him. Perhaps this evening or tomorrow.  In meantime, I hope, 
 there will be a few more interesting opinions posted.
 
Cheers,
 
Mark
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: A marginal record of Cayenne Tern
From: Ian McLaren <I.A.McLaren AT DAL.CA>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 14:51:44 +0000
All:


Might note that an all-yellow-billed tern was ID'd as a Cayenne Tern by an 
experienced birder on the s. tip of Nova Scotia, 26 Oct 2005. Alas, no photo 
obtained.? This was in the aftermath of Hurricane Earl, which moved rapidly 
from the Gulf of Mexico to Nova Scotia laden with trans-Gulf landbird migrants 
and seabirds, including all the expected "southern" terns. Alas, no photo 
obtained. 



Ian McLaren

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Presumably 2 Caye nne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – April 9, 2015 –Texa s
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 07:28:45 -0700
Mark

 Two things go on here. One is that some species of Thalasseus have variable 
bill colors. The tendency is for pale billed populations (Cayenne and Elegant) 
to show black on the bill every so often. The other situation is that Caribbean 
populations are clinal, Sandwich like in the north, Cayenne like in the south 
with a significant area of intermediacy. So both of these situations create 
birds with intermediate bill coloration. 

 The southern breeding population of Cayenne (Argentina-Uruguay-Brazil) is 
yellow billed, but every so often a bird with dark on the bill shows up. Since 
this is well away from the direct influence of Sandwich type birds, one can 
class it as variation. Similarly in Elegant, even publications that have come 
out suggesting various hybrids in breeding islands in Mexico are probably in 
error. Most of these are likely individual variants. Here is the most extreme 
case I have found in California: 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/alvarojaramillo/9439419251/in/photolist-fo8utM-c7on6G 

Note that in South America, Cayenne only occurs on the Atlantic. On the Pacific 
side al are Sandwich. I am not sure where they breed, these may only be 
non-breeding birds in the Pacific. 

 Given your photos, and those from Martin, I think a rarer situation occurs in 
Sandwich (Cabot's if you prefer) where a few have restricted black. 

Finally, given that Cayenne is defined by a fully yellow bill. I think that any 
bird identified as Cayenne needs to have a fully yellow bill. 


Take care, 
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik 

Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 9:48 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) 
– April 9, 2015 –Texas 


Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – April 9, 2015 
– 

  Texas Upper Coast; Galveston County
 
Hi All,

Published Cayenne Tern records in North America are quite scarce. Only a few 
records and only single birds mostly found in North Carolina. Same in eBird 
database; it shows mostly published records. Entered are records from North 
Carolina and single records in four other states: Virginia (no photo and 
description say “rather” adult than juvenile Sandwich [yellow billed 
fledglings are quite common, at least on Texas shore; pers. obs.] – 
summarizing that this record is tentative), New York (published record), 
Louisiana (photo taken but not available to check, description included) and 
two records in Texas (apparently of the same bird; two locations close to each 
other, seen a week apart; no photo or description but for some reason confirmed 
by eBird). I read with interest Florida Records Committee reports about one as 
they called Cayenne-type tern found in 2012. It seems that they suspect hybrid 
possibility in every Cayenne even with all yellow bills. To my kno! 

 wledge in Texas nobody even report/review subspecies so no need to worry. As 
races of any bird, no matter how ‘exotic’ they might be, are not on a 
birders’ tick list and anybody with minimal effort can tick off a Cabot’s 
around here there is no special interest to either keep checking flocks of 
hundreds/thousands Cabot’s Terns or chase one. As I have a special interest 
in terns any Cayenne or Cayenne-type tern vagrant always will be a very 
interesting find, at least to me. 

 
So here we are; according to Junge and Voous (1955) Cayenne Terns from 
Caribbean populations may show considerable black on the bill while all-yellow 
bills predominate in the southern part of the breeding range in South America. 
Olsen and Larsson (1995) note that Cayenne is as Sandwich Tern acuflavida, but 
bill yellow, varying from orange to straw-yellow, often with darker central 
areas. They also regard phenotypically intermediate individuals, with the basal 
two-thirds or more of the bill black (thus approaching the condition in 
acuflavida), as referable to eurygnatha. Included photos (numbers 57-59 and 71 
analyzed by Mitra and Buckley (2000) that also included excellent review of all 
published papers) show considerable variation in bill color and structure, even 
within the same flock. Major bill color-states (not discrete, but variable) 
include black with a yellow tip, black with yellow blotches, greenish-yellow 
with black blotches, orange-yellow with black blotc! 

 hes, pure greenish-yellow, and pure orange (red). Similarly, bill structure 
varies from as slender as acuflavida to almost as heavy as maxima, and from 
essentially straight to conspicuously drooping, but none of this variation has 
been critically dissected by sex, age, or latitude heeding area. 

 
Hayes (2004) in his paper included a few sets of photographs illustrating bill 
variations and also stated that “The taxonomic relationship between Sandwich 
and Cayenne Terns is poorly understood. If any reproductive isolating mechanism 
exists between the two taxa, it may be based on bill coloration or, perhaps 
more likely, postural and vocal displays (P A. Buckley, pers. 

comm.). However, no behavioral differences between the taxa have been 
described. As for bill coloration, the crux of the issue is whether individuals 
with phenotypically "intermediate" bill coloration represent (1) variant (or 
even normal) phenotypes of Cayenne Tern, (2) the results of interbreeding 
between the two taxa, or (3) a mixture of both phenomena. A second crucial 
question is whether individuals indistinguishable from Sandwich Terns nesting 
in the southern Caribbean and eastern Brazil represent (1) Sandwich Terns or 
(2) variant Cayenne Tern phenotypes. 

 
Perhaps I should mention that there are some private opinions posted on the web 
speculating that yellow with some black billed Sandwich Terns they claim to saw 
are, in their opinion, nothing else than Cabot’s with an aberrant bill – 
but … no photos were taken. If we are to take statements like that seriously 
than intermediate individuals here and in South America will ‘ become’ 
Cabot’s and if we reverse the approach why not all Cabot’s Terns are being 
Cayenne with aberrant bill. On the other hand, the later possibility, but only 
applied to some Cabot’s-like individuals in South American breeding colonies, 
was pointed by Hayes (2004) in form of the second crucial question in point 2 
(see paragraph above). 

 
So here I have a question that most likely is never going to be answered, or 
better said one answer is not going to be approved by all. Are the birds I saw 
from the South American race eurygnatha or they are Cabot's X Cayenne Tern 
hybrids with intermediate bill coloration? BTW from the point of my interest in 
terns I would love these birds to be a Cabot’s Terns with aberrant bills but 
as there is not, to my best knowledge, any published studies describing 
documented cases of such birds so I see this as an unlikely possibility. I 
remember reading somewhere on the web that a few Cabot’s with very little 
extra yellow spots were seen in North Carolina but even in those cases hybrid 
possibility was proposed as this area is known for Cayenne Terns to show up 
from time to time in the past so these vagrants could stay there and breed 
injecting their genes to Cabot’s population gene pool. In Texas I saw 
thousands of Cabot’s and never saw one before with anything su! 

 ggesting any extra yellow areas in the bill coloration. It might be worth to 
mention that every time I check tern flocks I am mostly looking at primaries 
and bills of as many birds as possible; for other reasons than trying to find a 
different species/race but it sometimes help with that as well. The Cayenne 
numbered #2 has only small patch of yellow (it is more like orange comparing to 
the bill tip coloration; this is characteristic to some Cayenne bill 
coloration) at the base of maxilla; no photos of other bill’s part were 
taken, from different angles, reason at the end of this post, but I assume bill 
coloration was similar on another side. I would like to know what coloration of 
the mandible ventral part is. Also bill tip coloration: in Cabot’ 

s there is a sharp defined border between yellow and black areas. As we can see 
in Cayenne #2 the maxilla tip yellow part ends farther from the bill tip than 
in mandible and there is no fine definition line between yellow and black but 
rather yellow smudges into the black area (also rather typical to Cayenne 
intermediates). Well, I have to admit that if I only found bird 

#2 I will probably had a huge headache by now. The fact that both these terns 
were part of the same flock let me assume that they could come from the same 
wintering ground in the South and are traveling together. Both birds have bills 
coloration matching some individuals in photo collection of intermediates 
published by Hayes (2004). 

 
Crude measurements of bill depth at the base indicate that Cayenne #1 bill has 
the same depth as one Cabot’s and is slightly broader compare to a couple 
other Cabot’s in the flock, and slightly shorter in total length in 
comparison to one (I have no other adequate photos taken to take more 
reasonable measurements). 

 

Photos Cayenne #1
 
On the wing
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159764477
 
Between Cabot’s and other birds
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159764483
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159764485
 
Comparison of bill structure and coloration with other Thalasseus terns I found 
in Texas 

 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159764475/original
 
Ventral bill view to show mostly yellow coloration of mandible ventral part 
Dorsal bill view to show mostly yellow coloration of maxilla dorsal part 
Lateral bill view to show distribution of the yellow and black coloration of 
maxilla and mandible lateral parts (right side having more black area than left 
one) 

 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159764474/original
 
Cayenne #2
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159764487
 

All these photos from above and several more can be check in one folder when 
following this link (to see composite photo in full resolution it might be 
necessary to click on ‘original’ under the photo if clicked in folder; 
links above are to full resolution) 

 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/cayenne_terns_2___april_9_2015__texas_upper_coast
 
Note about sighting: This day was one of first few days when very large influx 
of migrating Cabot’s Tens occurred. With extreme high tide during part of 
that day birds had only a very few spots available to rest. Well, beaches are 
public and good people need a rest and relax. I usually try to find secluded 
places but you cannot expect that good birds will only show up in such places. 
It is a migration time so there are plenty of not only birds on the beaches but 
plenty of people as well. Unfortunately because of high tide and limited 
available resting spots these huge flocks of birds were easy to spook and some 
kept leaving the area when disturbed. Finally when too many people came to the 
beach and walkers, and moving vehicles were stressing birds too much the 
majority of birds left the area, so did I. Usually when the whole flock is 
spooked and fly away it will find spot to rest somewhere else and will not come 
back. I tried to relocate these terns during ne! 

 xt few days, including  spots even far away (where I know terns like to
rest) – no success. Terns are on the move and only few of Cabot’s Terns 
will nest around here. It could be interesting if a few Cayenne Terns (hybrids, 
or whatever somebody wants to call them) start to nest here in Texas too so 
interbreeding with Cabot’s could take place right around the corner where I 
live. 

 

Mark B Bartosik
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrid s)
From: Reid Martin <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 08:24:42 -0500
Dear all,
For those contemplating the recent post about this subject matter, here are 
some Sandwich-like terns from Texas. The first (adult) bird is not too 
dissimilar to the recent birds from Texas that are the main thrust of the 
recent post. The second bird is a HY photographed in late September, which 
seems late for such a large amount of retained juvenile bill color (and note 
that the color is orange, not yellow): 


http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/SATE.html

Regards,
Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com






Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – April 9, 2015 –Texas
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 00:47:36 -0400
Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – April 9, 2015 
– 

  Texas Upper Coast; Galveston County
 
Hi All,

Published Cayenne Tern records in North America are quite scarce. Only  a 
few records and only single birds mostly found in North Carolina. Same in  
eBird database; it shows mostly published records. Entered are records from  
North Carolina and single records in four other states: Virginia (no photo 
and  description say “rather” adult than juvenile Sandwich [yellow billed 
fledglings  are quite common, at least on Texas shore; pers. obs.] – 
summarizing that this record is tentative), New York (published record), 
Louisiana 

(photo taken but  not available to check, description included) and two 
records in Texas (apparently of the same bird; two locations close to each 
other, 

seen a week  apart; no photo or description but for some reason confirmed 
by eBird).  I  read with interest Florida Records Committee reports about one 
as they called  Cayenne-type tern found in 2012. It seems that they suspect 
hybrid possibility  in every Cayenne even with all yellow bills. To my 
knowledge in Texas nobody even report/review subspecies so no need to worry. As 

races of any bird, no  matter how  ‘exotic’ they might be, are not on a 
birders’ tick list and anybody with minimal effort can tick off a Cabot’s 

around here there is no  special interest to either keep checking flocks of 
hundreds/thousands Cabot’s Terns or chase one. As I have a special interest 

in terns any Cayenne or  Cayenne-type tern vagrant always will be a very 
interesting find, at least to  me.
 
So here we are; according to Junge and Voous (1955) Cayenne Terns from  
Caribbean populations may show considerable black on the bill while all-yellow 

bills predominate in the southern part of the breeding range in South 
America.  Olsen and Larsson (1995) note that Cayenne is as Sandwich Tern 
acuflavida, but bill yellow, varying from orange to straw-yellow, often with 
darker 

central  areas. They also regard phenotypically intermediate individuals, 
with the basal  two-thirds or more of the bill black (thus approaching the 
condition in  acuflavida), as referable to eurygnatha. Included photos 
(numbers 57-59 and 71  analyzed by Mitra and Buckley (2000) that also included 
excellent review of all  published papers) show considerable variation in bill 
color and structure, even  within the same flock. Major bill color-states 
(not discrete, but variable)  include black with a yellow tip, black with 
yellow blotches, greenish-yellow with black blotches, orange-yellow with black 

blotches, pure greenish-yellow,  and pure orange (red). Similarly, bill 
structure varies from as slender as acuflavida to almost as heavy as maxima, 
and 

from essentially straight to  conspicuously drooping, but none of this 
variation has been critically dissected  by sex, age, or latitude heeding area.
 
Hayes (2004) in his paper included a few sets of photographs illustrating  
bill variations and also stated that “The taxonomic relationship between  
Sandwich and Cayenne Terns is poorly understood. If any reproductive isolating 
 mechanism exists between the two taxa, it may be based on bill coloration 
or,  perhaps more likely, postural and vocal displays (P A. Buckley, pers. 
comm.).  However, no behavioral differences between the taxa have been 
described. As for bill coloration, the crux of the issue is whether individuals 

with  phenotypically "intermediate" bill coloration represent (1) variant (or 
even  normal) phenotypes of Cayenne Tern, (2) the results of interbreeding 
between the  two taxa, or (3) a mixture of both phenomena. A second crucial 
question is  whether individuals indistinguishable from Sandwich Terns 
nesting in the  southern Caribbean and eastern Brazil represent (1) Sandwich 
Terns or (2)  variant Cayenne Tern phenotypes.
 
Perhaps I should mention that there are some private opinions  posted  on 
the web speculating that yellow with some black billed Sandwich Terns they  
claim to saw are, in their opinion, nothing else than Cabot’s with an 
aberrant bill – but … no photos were taken. If we are to take statements 
like 

that seriously than intermediate individuals here and in South America will ‘ 

become’ Cabot’s and if we reverse the approach why not all Cabot’s Terns 

are being  Cayenne with aberrant bill.  On the other hand, the later 
possibility, but only applied to some Cabot’s-like individuals in South 
American 

breeding  colonies, was pointed by Hayes (2004) in form of the second crucial 
question in  point 2 (see paragraph above).
 
So here I have a question that most likely is never going to be answered,  
or better said one answer is not going to be approved by all. Are the birds 
I  saw from the South American race eurygnatha or they are Cabot's X Cayenne 
Tern  hybrids with intermediate bill coloration? BTW from the point of my 
interest in  terns I would love these birds to be a Cabot’s Terns with 
aberrant bills but as there is not, to my best knowledge, any published studies 

describing documented  cases of such birds so I see this as an unlikely 
possibility. I remember reading somewhere on the web that a few Cabot’s with 

very little extra yellow spots were  seen in North Carolina but even in those 
cases hybrid possibility was proposed  as this area is known for Cayenne 
Terns to show up from time to time in the past  so these vagrants could stay 
there and breed injecting their genes to Cabot’s  population gene pool. In 
Texas I saw thousands of Cabot’s and never saw one  before with anything 
suggesting any extra yellow areas in the bill coloration. It might be worth to 

mention that every time I check tern flocks I am mostly  looking at primaries 
and bills of as many birds as possible; for other reasons  than trying to 
find a different species/race but it sometimes help with that as  well. The 
Cayenne numbered #2 has only small patch of yellow (it is more like  orange 
comparing to the bill tip coloration; this is characteristic to some  Cayenne 
bill coloration) at the base of maxilla; no photos of other bill’s part were 

taken, from different angles, reason at the end of this post, but I assume  
bill coloration was similar on another side. I would like to know what  
coloration of the mandible ventral part is. Also bill tip coloration: in 
Cabot’ 

s  there is a sharp defined border between yellow and black areas. As we can 
see in  Cayenne #2 the maxilla tip yellow part ends farther from the bill 
tip than in  mandible and there is no fine definition line between yellow and 
black but  rather yellow smudges into the black area (also rather typical 
to Cayenne  intermediates). Well, I have to admit that if I only found bird 
#2 I will  probably had a huge headache by now.  The fact that both these 
terns were  part of the same flock let me assume that they could come from the 
same  wintering ground in the South and are traveling together.  Both birds 
have  bills coloration matching some individuals in photo collection of 
intermediates  published by Hayes (2004).
 
Crude measurements of bill depth at the base indicate that Cayenne #1 bill  
has the same depth as one Cabot’s and is slightly broader compare to a 
couple  other Cabot’s in the flock, and slightly shorter in total length in 
comparison  to one (I have no other adequate photos taken to take more 
reasonable  measurements).
 

Photos Cayenne #1
 
On the wing
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159764477
 
Between Cabot’s and other birds
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159764483
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159764485
 
Comparison of bill structure and coloration with other Thalasseus terns I  
found in Texas
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159764475/original
 
Ventral bill view to show mostly yellow coloration of mandible ventral  part
Dorsal bill view to show mostly yellow coloration of maxilla dorsal  part
Lateral bill view to show distribution of the yellow and black  coloration 
of maxilla and mandible lateral parts (right side having more black  area 
than left one)
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159764474/original
 
Cayenne #2
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159764487
 

All these photos from above and several more can be check in one folder  
when following this link (to see composite photo in full resolution it might 
be  necessary to click on ‘original’ under the photo if clicked in folder; 
links  above are to full resolution)
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/cayenne_terns_2___april_9_2015__texas_upper_coast
 
Note about sighting: This day was one of first few days when very large  
influx of migrating Cabot’s Tens occurred. With extreme high tide during part 

of  that day birds had only a very few spots available to rest.  Well, 
beaches are public and good people need a rest and relax. I usually try to find 

secluded  places but you cannot expect that good birds will only show up in 
such places.  It is a migration time so there are plenty of not only birds 
on the beaches but  plenty of people as well. Unfortunately because of high 
tide and limited  available resting spots these huge flocks of birds were 
easy to spook and some  kept leaving the area when disturbed. Finally when too 
many people came to  the  beach and walkers, and moving vehicles were 
stressing birds too much the majority of birds left the area, so did I. Usually 

when the whole flock is  spooked and fly away it will find spot to rest 
somewhere else and will not come back. I tried to relocate these terns during 

next few days, including  spots even far away (where I know terns like to 
rest) – no success. Terns are on the move and only few of Cabot’s Terns 
will 

nest around here. It could be  interesting if a few Cayenne Terns (hybrids, 
or whatever somebody wants to call  them) start to nest here in Texas too so 
interbreeding with Cabot’s could take  place right around the corner where 
I live.
 

Mark B Bartosik
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mew Gull in Connecticut
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 15:47:41 -0700
I'd bet on kam.  A significant article on these taxa will be coming out in
Dutch Birding soon.



On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Nick Bonomo  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> An interesting Mew Gull recently seen and photographed in CT, USA is
> being debated regarding subspecific identification. The feeling of
> myself and others is that this bird is of Asian origin. Any thoughts
> would be appreciated.
>
> Apparently the northeast US has become a crossroads for "Mew" Gulls of
> various forms, with records of canus, brachyrynchus, and apparent
> kamchatschensis over just the past few months alone. Fascinating
> stuff.
>
> Here are photos of the CT bird:
>
> 
http://www.shorebirder.com/2015/04/apr-15-mew-gull-in-west-havenmilford-ct.html 

>
> Nick Bonomo
> Wallingford, CT
> www.shorebirder.com
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Mew Gull in Connecticut
From: Nick Bonomo <nbonomo AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 17:19:16 -0400
Hi all,

An interesting Mew Gull recently seen and photographed in CT, USA is
being debated regarding subspecific identification. The feeling of
myself and others is that this bird is of Asian origin. Any thoughts
would be appreciated.

Apparently the northeast US has become a crossroads for "Mew" Gulls of
various forms, with records of canus, brachyrynchus, and apparent
kamchatschensis over just the past few months alone. Fascinating
stuff.

Here are photos of the CT bird:
http://www.shorebirder.com/2015/04/apr-15-mew-gull-in-west-havenmilford-ct.html

Nick Bonomo
Wallingford, CT
www.shorebirder.com

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office.
From: Paul Wood <paul.r.wood AT UK.PWC.COM>
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 06:40:47 +0100
I will be out of the office from 10/04/2015 until 13/04/2015.

I will respond to your message when I return.




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Subject: Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Amar Ayyash <amarayyash AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 19:30:24 -0500
Doug, although it may seem to no effect for the time being, I think records
committees should evaluate such dark birds. At the very least it could
contribute to a database of photos (and written descriptions) that may one
day be put to use to paint a broader picture. I think it's of less value
for an observer to pass up a very dark bird (or a very pale bird) and not
make any special note of exception to what they've seen. Of course no
committee should feel compelled to assign a subspecies to any individual,
but rather, simply annotate the record with an asterisk (i.e., *nominate
fuscus-like features..., *intermedius-like features..., etc).


Amar Ayyash
Frankfort, Illinois

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 5:59 PM, Doug Faulkner  wrote:

> Hello all:
>
> First off, my apologies to Alan et al. for being U.S.-centric in my
> original post - bad habit of mine.  It was certainly not my intent to
> exclude the rest of the New World.
>
> The only other photo available from the photographer is uploaded now.  It's
> the original, uncropped version of one of the earlier two photos I posted
> so it may not be of much more help.  There were apparently 4-5 Lesser
> Black-backeds at that reservoir and this bird was distinctly much darker
> than the others.
>
> On a side note, if these darker-backed individuals can/should not be
> assigned to subspecies, is there value for a bird records committee to keep
> records of such individuals?  Is there anything we can learn by tracking
> these darker-backed birds if we are not sure of what they are or from where
> they might have originated?
>
> Thank you all for the feedback.  It's much appreciated.
>
> Doug Faulkner
> Colorado, USA
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Phil Davis  wrote:
>
> > All:
> >
> > This is just a related minor anecdote ...
> >
> > Also, many years ago (possibly during the same season that Paul Pisano
> > refers to, which I would place in the late 1980s or early 1990s), I
> > remember stopping at a gull spot somewhere in Maryland's Montgomery
> County.
> > As I recall it was a field, not a dump or reservoir. Already present and
> > looking at the gulls though scopes were the late Harvey Mudd and Willem
> > Maane, members of the MD/DC Records Committee. They pointed out to me two
> > gulls in the group that were fairly close together [and in the same
> > sun-orientation]. They said that the two were Lesser Black-backed Gulls
> but
> > they were of two different subspecies. Through their scope I clearly
> > remember seeing the yellow-legs and dark backs. So many years later, I
> > don't recall any other field marks, such as head streaking or bill
> > markings, except that the back color was very different between the two
> > birds, one appeared to be virtually jet black, very noticeably darker
> than
> > the other bird. I distinctly remember that they said that the dark bird
> was
> > "apparently a [nominate] fuscus." My recollection from the time was that
> > they knew that the nominate fuscus was either extremely rare or virtually
> > unknown in North America. Both Harvey and Willem were very experienced
> with
> > gulls, as our area had just been through the DC and MD Yellow-legged Gull
> > records experience. Harvey was a world birder, member and Chair of the
> > MD/DC Records Committee and Willem, a Dutchman, was also a member of the
> > committee.
> >
> > I remember thinking that I had just seen something quite rare; however, I
> > was not experienced enough at the time to document what they had just
> shown
> > me and, as a birding community, we were not so much into documenting
> > subspecies back then. I am pretty sure that this observation was never
> > documented for posterity. No other birders were present at the time and
> no
> > one had a camera with them. We also did not have the instant
> communications
> > that we do now.
> >
> > Could this really have been a fuscus or could the fuscus actually have
> > been an intermedius based on what we know now ... ???
> >
> > Was this the same bird that Paul Pisano saw at the Georgetown Reservoir
> > ... ???
> >
> > Again, just an anecdote, but one I remember pretty clearly, at least at
> > the superficial level.
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> > At 22:25 04/08/2015, Paul Pisano wrote:
> >
> >> Like Martin, I've seen 1 extremely dark Lesser Black-backed Gull, much
> >> too dark to be a graellsii, so presumably intermedius, but I wouldn't
> try
> >> to put a subspecific name on it.  This was many years ago, and I never
> took
> >> the time to take notes or pictures (didn't have a camera at the time),
> nor
> >> did I submit it to the Maryland/DC Records Committee.  This was at the
> >> infamous Georgetown Reservoir in Washington, DC (where the first NA
> >> Yellow-legged Gull was found).  So take that for what it' worth.
> >>
> >>
> > ==================================
> > Phil Davis      Davidsonville, Maryland     USA
> >                 mailto:PDavis AT ix.netcom.com
> > ==================================
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Colorado LBBG - correction
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1 AT NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 20:54:48 -0230
The upper parts colour of LBBGs has long intrigued and troubled people in North 
America. I think, as Martin Reid also suggested, is that many of the North 
American birds are a little bit darker than the classic pale British graellsii. 
Every so often here in Newfoundland I see an adult that is a little paler than 
the rest and figure this is like the real British graellsii often illustrated 
in British bird guides. I am not too concerned about splitting LBBGs into 
graellsii or intermedius. It almost seems a waste of time. They seem to blend 
together with only difference being the shade of upper parts colour. The fuscus 
LBBG is a different story. These are not only very black but also a different 
shaped bird being long and sleek with small head, thin body and narrow wings. 


The bird we saw and photographed in St. John's over the winter of 2004/2005 and 
shown here in Martin's site 
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp40.html and then seen again the 
following winter with photographs by Kirk Zufelt on his site 
http://larusology.blogspot.ca/2009/11/possible-baltic-gull-in-newfoundland.html 
was very different LBBG. The colour of the upper parts was a dry, deep black 
like black soot. But the more striking feature was the shape of the bird. Small 
headed, thin body, long very narrow wings, odd shaped bill - these features 
along with other subtleties made this bird feel like a different bird 
altogether from our usual LBBGs. 


I thought our photos taken in March 2005 would be enough to clinch it as a 
Baltic Gull. I sent the pictures to several European experts and hit a brick 
wall everywhere. No one would say it was a Baltic Gull without seeing a band on 
its leg proving it had been banded as a nestling within the breeding range of 
Baltic Gull. 


I have since read a few articles on the complicated LBBG scene in the 
Netherlands and that part of Europe. It is a different scene from just across 
the way in Britain where graellsii rule and darker backed potential intermedius 
and potential Baltic Gulls stand out. 


I have seen many photos of Baltic Gulls, I have even seen a few dozen adult 
Baltic Gulls during spring migration in eastern Poland. I have seen many LBBGs 
in North America, Ireland and Britain. I still feel the 2004/2005 bird in 
Newfoundland best fits Baltic Gull. But I respect the experience and wisdom of 
the European gull people that have said - No Band, No Go. 


Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Angus Wilson 

Sent: April-09-15 2:24 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Colorado LBBG - correction

That's better! The original link to birds from La Marque, Texas wasn't 
convincing as fuscus-like ;)) 


At first glance, the Halifax/Dartmouth bird shown in the new link seems a 
reasonable match for nominate fuscus (Baltic Gull) based on the very long wings 
and the black of the mantle being almost the same as the black primaries. I 
thought the bird photographed by Bruce McTavish in Newfoundland 
 also looked very 
interesting. If I'm not mistaken Baltic Gulls at any age should look relatively 
small and distinctively long-winged compared to other large gulls including 
other 'Lesser Black-backed' types. 


Some of the 'darker Lesser Black-backed Gulls' discussed on this forum have 
been perceived as being larger than expected. How does this relate to 
perceptions of graellsii, intermedius and 'Iberian' gulls by European 
observers? Could it be that the population now colonizing eastern North America 
(presumably from breeding sites in Greenland) was seeded by birds from more 
than one European population (in other words not pure graellsii) hence the 
puzzling appearance of some individuals? 


Lastly, in the context of coastal New York my impression is that there is a 
decline in the number of Lesser Black-backed Gulls that I'd describe as dark 
compared to my expectations of graellsii. Just a gut impression that I can't 
defend with data but thought I'd throw it into the mix. We've also seen changes 
in the frequency and habitat preferences of birds during the past 20 years. 


--
Angus Wilson
New York City & The Springs, NY, USA
http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland
From: Amar Ayyash <amarayyash AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 18:11:41 -0500
Peter and all, regarding the age of the Newfoundland gull on Martin's
website:
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp40.html

I think since the assumption here is that this "may" be a nominate fuscus
candidate, then it would better fit a 2nd cycle (2nd winter), considering
this taxon generally looks rather adult-like by the end of the 2nd prebasic
molt (similar to Yellow-footed in some respects).

I think the brown tinge to the wing coverts, the thinner white edge to the
tertials, relatively retarded bill pattern and small mirror on the
outermost mirror all fit better for a 2nd cycle (despite what look like
thick-white inner primary tips and an adult-like tail pattern).

Would love to get a European perspective on this bird.

Best,
Amar Ayyash
Frankfort, Illinois


On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Peter Pyle  wrote:

> I'm curious as to the age designation as "second winter" for the
> Newfoundland bird
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp40.html
> I realize L. f. fuscus can show more advanced looking plumage than other
> gulls due to more-extensive prealternate molts (including replacement of
> secondaries here), but pattern to the inner (basic) primaries, lack of
> black in the tail, etc. make me wonder if this was a third-cycle
> (third-winter) bird that year.
>
> Peter
>
> At 12:19 PM 4/9/2015, Kirk Zufelt wrote:
>
>> Angus- The year after (Jan14/2007) Bruce took the pics you linked too- I
>> photographed what may well have been the same bird at the St. John’s
>> Landfill. It was later seen again at Quidi Vidi Lake by Bruce and multiple
>> observers.
>> The link to the pics is below.
>>
>> http://larusology.blogspot.ca/2009/11/possible-baltic-gull-
>> in-newfoundland.html > ca/2009/11/possible-baltic-gull-in-newfoundland.html>
>>
>> I believe this is the closest you could ever get to a genuine Baltic Gull
>> without photographing a ringed bird.
>>
>> Kirk Zufelt
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Doug Faulkner <zebrilus AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 17:59:24 -0500
Hello all:

First off, my apologies to Alan et al. for being U.S.-centric in my
original post - bad habit of mine.  It was certainly not my intent to
exclude the rest of the New World.

The only other photo available from the photographer is uploaded now.  It's
the original, uncropped version of one of the earlier two photos I posted
so it may not be of much more help.  There were apparently 4-5 Lesser
Black-backeds at that reservoir and this bird was distinctly much darker
than the others.

On a side note, if these darker-backed individuals can/should not be
assigned to subspecies, is there value for a bird records committee to keep
records of such individuals?  Is there anything we can learn by tracking
these darker-backed birds if we are not sure of what they are or from where
they might have originated?

Thank you all for the feedback.  It's much appreciated.

Doug Faulkner
Colorado, USA

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Phil Davis  wrote:

> All:
>
> This is just a related minor anecdote ...
>
> Also, many years ago (possibly during the same season that Paul Pisano
> refers to, which I would place in the late 1980s or early 1990s), I
> remember stopping at a gull spot somewhere in Maryland's Montgomery County.
> As I recall it was a field, not a dump or reservoir. Already present and
> looking at the gulls though scopes were the late Harvey Mudd and Willem
> Maane, members of the MD/DC Records Committee. They pointed out to me two
> gulls in the group that were fairly close together [and in the same
> sun-orientation]. They said that the two were Lesser Black-backed Gulls but
> they were of two different subspecies. Through their scope I clearly
> remember seeing the yellow-legs and dark backs. So many years later, I
> don't recall any other field marks, such as head streaking or bill
> markings, except that the back color was very different between the two
> birds, one appeared to be virtually jet black, very noticeably darker than
> the other bird. I distinctly remember that they said that the dark bird was
> "apparently a [nominate] fuscus." My recollection from the time was that
> they knew that the nominate fuscus was either extremely rare or virtually
> unknown in North America. Both Harvey and Willem were very experienced with
> gulls, as our area had just been through the DC and MD Yellow-legged Gull
> records experience. Harvey was a world birder, member and Chair of the
> MD/DC Records Committee and Willem, a Dutchman, was also a member of the
> committee.
>
> I remember thinking that I had just seen something quite rare; however, I
> was not experienced enough at the time to document what they had just shown
> me and, as a birding community, we were not so much into documenting
> subspecies back then. I am pretty sure that this observation was never
> documented for posterity. No other birders were present at the time and no
> one had a camera with them. We also did not have the instant communications
> that we do now.
>
> Could this really have been a fuscus or could the fuscus actually have
> been an intermedius based on what we know now ... ???
>
> Was this the same bird that Paul Pisano saw at the Georgetown Reservoir
> ... ???
>
> Again, just an anecdote, but one I remember pretty clearly, at least at
> the superficial level.
>
> Phil
>
>
> At 22:25 04/08/2015, Paul Pisano wrote:
>
>> Like Martin, I've seen 1 extremely dark Lesser Black-backed Gull, much
>> too dark to be a graellsii, so presumably intermedius, but I wouldn't try
>> to put a subspecific name on it.  This was many years ago, and I never took
>> the time to take notes or pictures (didn't have a camera at the time), nor
>> did I submit it to the Maryland/DC Records Committee.  This was at the
>> infamous Georgetown Reservoir in Washington, DC (where the first NA
>> Yellow-legged Gull was found).  So take that for what it' worth.
>>
>>
> ==================================
> Phil Davis      Davidsonville, Maryland     USA
>                 mailto:PDavis AT ix.netcom.com
> ==================================
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 17:47:42 -0400
Here are two more photos of the Baltic-like Lesser Black-backed Gull from 
Newfoundland. At the time (2007) Bruce Mactavish told us it was probably the 
subspecies intermedius based on information from Europeans who had examined his 
photos. Third photo shows a graellsii for comparison. 

http://jeaniron.ca/Trips/Newfoundland2007/lesserblackback.htm

Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron
Toronto, Ontario


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle 

Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 4:02 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland

I'm curious as to the age designation as "second winter" for the Newfoundland 
bird http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp40.html 

I realize L. f. fuscus can show more advanced looking plumage than other gulls 
due to more-extensive prealternate molts (including replacement of secondaries 
here), but pattern to the inner (basic) primaries, lack of black in the tail, 
etc. make me wonder if this was a third-cycle (third-winter) bird that year. 


Peter

At 12:19 PM 4/9/2015, Kirk Zufelt wrote:
>Angus- The year after (Jan14/2007) Bruce took the pics you linked too- 
>I photographed what may well have been the same bird at the St. 
>John’s Landfill. It was later seen again at Quidi Vidi Lake by Bruce 
>and multiple observers.
>The link to the pics is below.
>
>http://larusology.blogspot.ca/2009/11/possible-baltic-gull-in-newfoundl
>and.html 
>land.html>
>
>I believe this is the closest you could ever get to a genuine Baltic 
>Gull without photographing a ringed bird.
>
>Kirk Zufelt
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 13:02:27 -0700
I'm curious as to the age designation as "second 
winter" for the Newfoundland bird
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp40.html
I realize L. f. fuscus can show more advanced 
looking plumage than other gulls due to 
more-extensive prealternate molts (including 
replacement of secondaries here), but pattern to 
the inner (basic) primaries, lack of black in the 
tail, etc. make me wonder if this was a 
third-cycle (third-winter) bird that year.

Peter

At 12:19 PM 4/9/2015, Kirk Zufelt wrote:
>Angus- The year after (Jan14/2007) Bruce took 
>the pics you linked too- I photographed what may 
>well have been the same bird at the St. John’s 
>Landfill. It was later seen again at Quidi Vidi 
>Lake by Bruce and multiple observers.
>The link to the pics is below.
>

>http://larusology.blogspot.ca/2009/11/possible-baltic-gull-in-newfoundland.html 


> 

>
>I believe this is the closest you could ever get 
>to a genuine Baltic Gull without photographing a ringed bird.
>
>Kirk Zufelt
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland
From: Kirk Zufelt <zufelt_k AT SHAW.CA>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 15:19:51 -0400
Angus- The year after (Jan14/2007) Bruce took the pics you linked too- I 
photographed what may well have been the same bird at the St. John’s 
Landfill. It was later seen again at Quidi Vidi Lake by Bruce and multiple 
observers. 

The link to the pics is below.

http://larusology.blogspot.ca/2009/11/possible-baltic-gull-in-newfoundland.html 
 


I believe this is the closest you could ever get to a genuine Baltic Gull 
without photographing a ringed bird. 


Kirk Zufelt
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Phil Davis <pdavis AT IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 13:41:27 -0400
All:

This is just a related minor anecdote ...

Also, many years ago (possibly during the same season that Paul 
Pisano refers to, which I would place in the late 1980s or early 
1990s), I remember stopping at a gull spot somewhere in Maryland's 
Montgomery County. As I recall it was a field, not a dump or 
reservoir. Already present and looking at the gulls though scopes 
were the late Harvey Mudd and Willem Maane, members of the MD/DC 
Records Committee. They pointed out to me two gulls in the group that 
were fairly close together [and in the same sun-orientation]. They 
said that the two were Lesser Black-backed Gulls but they were of two 
different subspecies. Through their scope I clearly remember seeing 
the yellow-legs and dark backs. So many years later, I don't recall 
any other field marks, such as head streaking or bill markings, 
except that the back color was very different between the two birds, 
one appeared to be virtually jet black, very noticeably darker than 
the other bird. I distinctly remember that they said that the dark 
bird was "apparently a [nominate] fuscus." My recollection from the 
time was that they knew that the nominate fuscus was either extremely 
rare or virtually unknown in North America. Both Harvey and Willem 
were very experienced with gulls, as our area had just been through 
the DC and MD Yellow-legged Gull records experience. Harvey was a 
world birder, member and Chair of the MD/DC Records Committee and 
Willem, a Dutchman, was also a member of the committee.

I remember thinking that I had just seen something quite rare; 
however, I was not experienced enough at the time to document what 
they had just shown me and, as a birding community, we were not so 
much into documenting subspecies back then. I am pretty sure that 
this observation was never documented for posterity. No other birders 
were present at the time and no one had a camera with them. We also 
did not have the instant communications that we do now.

Could this really have been a fuscus or could the fuscus actually 
have been an intermedius based on what we know now ... ???

Was this the same bird that Paul Pisano saw at the Georgetown 
Reservoir ... ???

Again, just an anecdote, but one I remember pretty clearly, at least 
at the superficial level.

Phil


At 22:25 04/08/2015, Paul Pisano wrote:
>Like Martin, I've seen 1 extremely dark Lesser Black-backed Gull, 
>much too dark to be a graellsii, so presumably intermedius, but I 
>wouldn't try to put a subspecific name on it.  This was many years 
>ago, and I never took the time to take notes or pictures (didn't 
>have a camera at the time), nor did I submit it to the Maryland/DC 
>Records Committee.  This was at the infamous Georgetown Reservoir in 
>Washington, DC (where the first NA Yellow-legged Gull was 
>found).  So take that for what it' worth.
>

==================================
Phil Davis      Davidsonville, Maryland     USA
                 mailto:PDavis AT ix.netcom.com
================================== 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Colorado LBBG - correction
From: Angus Wilson <oceanwanderers AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 12:54:15 -0400
That's better! The original link to birds from La Marque, Texas wasn't
convincing as fuscus-like ;))

At first glance, the Halifax/Dartmouth bird shown in the new link seems a
reasonable match for nominate fuscus (Baltic Gull) based on the very long
wings and the black of the mantle being almost the same as the black
primaries. I thought the bird photographed by Bruce McTavish in
Newfoundland  also
looked very interesting. If I'm not mistaken Baltic Gulls at any age should
look relatively small and distinctively long-winged compared to other large
gulls including other 'Lesser Black-backed' types.

Some of the 'darker Lesser Black-backed Gulls' discussed on this forum have
been perceived as being larger than expected. How does this relate to
perceptions of graellsii, intermedius and 'Iberian' gulls by European
observers? Could it be that the population now colonizing eastern North
America (presumably from breeding sites in Greenland) was seeded by birds
from more than one European population (in other words not pure graellsii)
hence the puzzling appearance of some individuals?

Lastly, in the context of coastal New York my impression is that there is a
decline in the number of Lesser Black-backed Gulls that I'd describe as
dark compared to my expectations of graellsii. Just a gut impression that I
can't defend with data but thought I'd throw it into the mix. We've also
seen changes in the frequency and habitat preferences of birds during the
past 20 years.

-- 
Angus Wilson
New York City & The Springs, NY, USA
http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Colorado LBBG - correction
From: Reid Martin <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:58:52 -0500
The correct link for the NS, Canada LBBG that is within range for fuscus...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp75.html

Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Reid Martin <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:09:29 -0500
Here are a few darker LBBGs from Texas:

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp90.html

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp74.html

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp61.html

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp26.html

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp24.html

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp12.html

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp83.html

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp11.html

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp13.html


- and a couple from Canada that are within range for fuscus...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp24.html

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp40.html


- and keep in mind that the famous "F5" Maine Appledore gull is fairly 
dark-mantled: 


http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp82F05.html

Here is a photo from Florida showing the variation often found when good 
numbers of LBBGs are present: 


http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp92.html


- and lastly, an example of how mantle color can appear much darker than it 
really is if there is no benchmark species in the photo! This first adult looks 
pretty dark - until you compare it to the Laughing Gulls around it... 


http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp17.html


Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Suzanne Sullivan <swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 07:37:40 -0400
I have  photographed this year 2  different very dark LBBG, too dark to
be graellsii. My photos are not nearly as good as yours Doug, they are
distant.  http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/ebird_archive_  The first set is
from 2 days ago are digiscoped and the subject bird was not very
cooperative since it stayed in the back of the pack. I seriously considered
KELP for a few but the white on the trailing edge is thin. Way too big to
be fuscus, so intermedius-type seems plausible.  This bird was bigger than
what I would expect from a typical LBBG also. The one single shot from
March on the Merrimac also distant record shot for ebird ( rare at this
location) was as you can see typical size, but interesting also, no open
wing shots of that bird.

Here is a gallery of much better photos
http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/_lesser_blackbacked_gull_larus_fuscus , most
are from Salisbury state park in Mass. They all seem really dark to me but
the gallery “presumed not graellsii” has many angles open wing shots etc.
The group of October birds is very interesting to me because they seem so
bulky, and their heads have no streaking for Oct. and the bills are
serious, almost GBBG like and seem to have spots on P10 as opposed to a
mirror. Very little white in wing. The spot on P10 seems to possibly be a
shared feature in the really dark ones.  I think there is a lot more of
these types out there than we realize.

FYI - on Nantucket ( an expensive place to go unfortunately) large groups
of LBBG stage, not sure if they actually winter here but it would be a
great place to conduct a study, banding radio chips etc. I am hopeful this
fall I will be able to get there and spend a day with them. I am not aware
of anyone who has seriously photographed this group. Where do they come
from? Where are they going? Are they all the same sub-species? So many
questions.
Suzanne Sullivan
Wilmington, MA


On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Paul Pisano  wrote:

> Like Martin, I’ve seen 1 extremely dark Lesser Black-backed Gull, much too
> dark to be a graellsii, so presumably intermedius, but I wouldn’t try to
> put a subspecific name on it.  This was many years ago, and I never took
> the time to take notes or pictures (didn’t have a camera at the time), nor
> did I submit it to the Maryland/DC Records Committee.  This was at the
> infamous Georgetown Reservoir in Washington, DC (where the first NA
> Yellow-legged Gull was found).  So take that for what it’s worth.
>
> Good birding,
> Paul Pisano
> Arlington, VA
>
> > On Apr 8, 2015, at 4:11 PM, Doug Faulkner  wrote:
> >
> > Hello all:
> >
> > The CO Bird Records Committee is reviewing documentation of an adult
> > intermedius-type LBBG photographed in January 2013.  I would appreciate
> any
> > feedback on whether this bird can be identified to subspecies based on
> the
> > available photos found here:
> >
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/93340228 AT N02/
> >
> > Also, does anyone have a good idea of how many of these very dark-backed
> > LBBGs have been observed, as well as their geographic distribution, in
> the
> > U.S.?
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Doug Faulkner
> > Colorado, USA
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Phoenix, AZ mystery dove
From: Peter Wilkinson <pjw42 AT WAITROSE.COM>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:10:54 +0100
Noah and All,

I strongly suspect Eurasian Collared x Ringed Turtle-dove (or as we
would call it, Barbary Dove). I saw a range of these in Mallorca and the
Canary Islands some years ago when decaocto first reached them and met
established populations of 'risoria'. They seem to hybridise for a while
until the larger bird outcompetes the smaller, which disappears. The
Phoenix bird, with its mixed characteristics, would certainly not have
been out of place among the hybrids I saw.

Apart from the dark tail tips, of course. There does, however, seem to
be some feather damage associated with the tips and I wonder whether it
has picked up some external staining somewhere. 

Peter

On Thu, 2015-04-09 at 00:34 -0500, Noah Arthur wrote:
> It was too big for Ringed Turtle-dove (same size as Eurasian Collared,
> although perhaps slenderer). Also, the black outer webs at the base of the
> tail is wrong for Ringed Turtle (more like Eurasian Collared, although the
> bird was definitely not pure Collared).
> 
> What I forgot to mention in my first message was the bird's call: a
> two-note coo, similar but not identical to the pet Ringed Turtle-doves I
> used to have -- and unlike Eurasian Collared.
> 
> Noah
> 
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Floyd Hayes  wrote:
> 
> > Noah,
> >
> > Why not a Ringed Turtle-Dove?
> >
> > Floyd
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone 
> >
> > At Apr 8, 2015, 6:41:32 PM, Noah Arthur<'semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM'> wrote:
> > A couple weeks ago, while I was in Phoenix for Spring Training baseball
> > games, I found an unusual Streptopelia collared-dove at Phoenix College
> > (near downtown). The bird is very pale but as large as Eurasian
> > Collared-dove, with several odd features including a black tail-tip (!!)
> > and an Iceland Gull-like primary pattern (dark outer webs, pale inner
> > webs).
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157649341522323/
> >
> > The tail pattern seems way off for Eurasian Collared or any North American
> > dove... What do you all think? Some strange escapee?
> >
> > Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> >
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Phoenix, AZ mystery dove
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 00:34:11 -0500
It was too big for Ringed Turtle-dove (same size as Eurasian Collared,
although perhaps slenderer). Also, the black outer webs at the base of the
tail is wrong for Ringed Turtle (more like Eurasian Collared, although the
bird was definitely not pure Collared).

What I forgot to mention in my first message was the bird's call: a
two-note coo, similar but not identical to the pet Ringed Turtle-doves I
used to have -- and unlike Eurasian Collared.

Noah

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Floyd Hayes  wrote:

> Noah,
>
> Why not a Ringed Turtle-Dove?
>
> Floyd
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone 
>
> At Apr 8, 2015, 6:41:32 PM, Noah Arthur<'semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM'> wrote:
> A couple weeks ago, while I was in Phoenix for Spring Training baseball
> games, I found an unusual Streptopelia collared-dove at Phoenix College
> (near downtown). The bird is very pale but as large as Eurasian
> Collared-dove, with several odd features including a black tail-tip (!!)
> and an Iceland Gull-like primary pattern (dark outer webs, pale inner
> webs).
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157649341522323/
>
> The tail pattern seems way off for Eurasian Collared or any North American
> dove... What do you all think? Some strange escapee?
>
> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Paul Pisano <cheep.paul AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 22:25:38 -0400
Like Martin, I’ve seen 1 extremely dark Lesser Black-backed Gull, much too 
dark to be a graellsii, so presumably intermedius, but I wouldn’t try to put 
a subspecific name on it. This was many years ago, and I never took the time to 
take notes or pictures (didn’t have a camera at the time), nor did I submit 
it to the Maryland/DC Records Committee. This was at the infamous Georgetown 
Reservoir in Washington, DC (where the first NA Yellow-legged Gull was found). 
So take that for what it’s worth. 


Good birding,
Paul Pisano
Arlington, VA

> On Apr 8, 2015, at 4:11 PM, Doug Faulkner  wrote:
> 
> Hello all:
> 
> The CO Bird Records Committee is reviewing documentation of an adult
> intermedius-type LBBG photographed in January 2013.  I would appreciate any
> feedback on whether this bird can be identified to subspecies based on the
> available photos found here:
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/93340228 AT N02/
> 
> Also, does anyone have a good idea of how many of these very dark-backed
> LBBGs have been observed, as well as their geographic distribution, in the
> U.S.?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Doug Faulkner
> Colorado, USA
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Phoenix, AZ mystery dove
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 20:41:32 -0500
A couple weeks ago, while I was in Phoenix for Spring Training baseball
games, I found an unusual Streptopelia collared-dove at Phoenix College
(near downtown). The bird is very pale but as large as Eurasian
Collared-dove, with several odd features including a black tail-tip (!!)
and an Iceland Gull-like primary pattern (dark outer webs, pale inner
webs).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157649341522323/

The tail pattern seems way off for Eurasian Collared or any North American
dove... What do you all think? Some strange escapee?

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
From: Reid Martin <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 20:10:29 -0500
Here in Texas I've seen at least 6 or 7 birds that seem too dark for graellsii 
or even Dutch Intergrades; none have been processed by the TBRC (partly because 
records of this kind are not sought by the TBRC). Most of the LBBGs seen in 
Texas up until a few years ago were notable by being darker than an average 
graellsii, i.e. obviously darker than nearby Laughing Gulls as the same angle. 
However in recent years,as the overall numbers seen in Texas has increased, a 
few paler birds have been found, with some about the same mantle shade as 
Laughing Gull. 

Keep in mind that in a vagrant context, it does not have to merely be dark 
enough to fall within the mantle range of intermedius - it has to be dark 
enough to fall outside the range of the darkest Dutch intergrades... 

BTW regarding the Colorado bird - are these the only two images avaIlable? If 
so, then assessing the actual mantle shade is almost impossible, since the 
angles at which the bird is standing relative to the camera are the angles 
where mantle darkness is exaggerated - indeed the tone looks to be almost black 
in these images.. The true tone could be quite a bit lighter, if seen 
perpendicular to the camera/viewer and in neutral lighting. 

Martin
---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com





On Apr 8, 2015, at Apr 8, 3:11 PM, Doug Faulkner wrote:

> Hello all:
> 
> The CO Bird Records Committee is reviewing documentation of an adult
> intermedius-type LBBG photographed in January 2013.  I would appreciate any
> feedback on whether this bird can be identified to subspecies based on the
> available photos found here:
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/93340228 AT N02/
> 
> Also, does anyone have a good idea of how many of these very dark-backed
> LBBGs have been observed, as well as their geographic distribution, in the
> U.S.?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Doug Faulkner
> Colorado, USA
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html