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Updated on Saturday, March 7 at 01:59 AM EST
The most recently received Mail is at the top.


Toucan Barbet,©BirdQuest

7 Mar Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office. [Paul Wood ]
6 Mar Re: Columbus, Ohio Towhee [David Irons ]
5 Mar Re: Columbus, Ohio Towhee [Tony Leukering ]
5 Mar Columbus, Ohio Towhee [Paul Gardner ]
4 Mar Re: Fw: Blackbird link [Allen Chartier ]
4 Mar Re: Fw: Blackbird link [Mark Szantyr ]
4 Mar Re: Fw: Blackbird link [David Irons ]
3 Mar Re: Fw: Blackbird link [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
3 Mar Re: Fw: Blackbird link [Peter Pyle ]
3 Mar Re: Fw: Blackbird link [Rob Parsons ]
3 Mar Re: Fw: Blackbird link []
3 Mar Re: Blackbird link []
3 Mar Re: Blackbird link [Christopher Hill ]
3 Mar Re: Fw: Blackbird link []
3 Mar Slaty-backed candidate from Nebraska [Noah Arthur ]
2 Mar Re: Fw: Blackbird link [Rex Rowan ]
2 Mar Re: Fw: Blackbird link [David Irons ]
2 Mar Fw: Blackbird link [Rob Parsons ]
26 Feb Re: Thick-billed Murre photos? [Chris Hill ]
25 Feb Re: Thick-billed Murre photos? [Paul Guris ]
25 Feb Re: Thick-billed Murre photos? [Bruce Mactavish ]
25 Feb Thick-billed Murre photos? [Chris Hill ]
20 Feb Re: Individual bird ID help needed ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]
20 Feb Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Dominic Mitchell ]
19 Feb Black Tern - underwing color and winter head patterns [Mark B Bartosik ]
19 Feb Individual bird ID help needed [Noah Arthur ]
19 Feb Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Dominic Mitchell ]
19 Feb Re: Chlidonias tern query [Hans Larsson ]
18 Feb Re: Chlidonias tern query ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]
18 Feb Re: Chlidonias tern query [Mark B Bartosik ]
18 Feb Re: Chlidonias tern query [Hans Larsson ]
18 Feb Re: Chlidonias tern query [Jason Hoeksema ]
17 Feb Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Luis Gordinho ]
17 Feb Hoary Redpoll Question ["R.D. Everhart" ]
17 Feb Re: Chlidonias tern query [Tony Leukering ]
17 Feb Re: Chlidonias tern query [Mark B Bartosik ]
17 Feb Re: Chlidonias tern query [Hans Larsson ]
17 Feb Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office. [Paul Wood ]
16 Feb Chlidonias tern query [Jason Hoeksema ]
17 Feb Re: Hoary Redpoll question ["Matthew A. Young" ]
16 Feb Re: Hoary Redpoll question [Jean Iron ]
16 Feb Re: Hoary Redpoll question [Tony Leukering ]
16 Feb Re: Hoary Redpoll question [Lee G R Evans ]
16 Feb Hoary Redpoll question ["R.D. Everhart" ]
12 Feb Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Dominic Mitchell ]
12 Feb Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Luis Gordinho ]
11 Feb Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Steve Hampton ]
11 Feb Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Reid Martin ]
11 Feb Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Suzanne Sullivan ]
11 Feb Fwd: [nysbirds-l] POSSIBLE Thayer's Gull on Central Park Reservoir [Peter Post ]
11 Feb Any opinions on this gull [Peter Post ]
11 Feb Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
11 Feb 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Luis Gordinho ]
10 Feb Re: Subspecies by state? [David Irons ]
9 Feb Re: Subspecies by state? [Reid Martin ]
10 Feb Re: Subspecies by state? ["Tangren, Gerald Vernon" ]
9 Feb Re: Subspecies by state? [Steve Sosensky ]
9 Feb Re: Subspecies by state? [Wayne Hoffman ]
9 Feb Re: Subspecies by state? ["Kevin J. McGowan" ]
9 Feb Re: Subspecies by state? [Tony Leukering ]
9 Feb Re: Subspecies by state? [Wayne Hoffman ]
8 Feb Re: Frigatebird in Oregon - feedback solicited [Peter Pyle ]
8 Feb Re: Subspecies by state? [Jean Iron ]
8 Feb Subspecies by state? [Frank Haas ]
7 Feb Frigatebird in Oregon - feedback solicited [Jay Withgott ]
28 Jan Re: Posted for Floyd Hayes: Raptor in Tobago [Tony Leukering ]
25 Jan Re: Brown-capped Rosy-Finches in Utah [Tim Avery ]
28 Jan Bewildering diversity in a flock of "white-cheeked geese" [Ted Floyd ]
28 Jan Posted for Floyd Hayes: Raptor in Tobago [Andy Kratter ]
28 Jan Unidentified Buteo in Tobago (Caribbean) [Floyd Hayes ]
25 Jan Re: Brown-capped Rosy-Finches in Utah [Tony Leukering ]
24 Jan Brown-capped Rosy-Finches in Utah [Tim Avery ]
22 Jan Additional photos of presumed Kelp Gull [Ben Coulter ]
22 Jan Presumed Kelp Gull-Pennsylvania [Ben Coulter ]
21 Jan On human cognitive bias, birds and light, and image forensics ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]
20 Jan Black Terns with pink flush, brown belly & subterminal tail bands [Mark B Bartosik ]

Subject: Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office.
From: Paul Wood <paul.r.wood AT UK.PWC.COM>
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 06:26:33 +0000
I will be out of the office from 06/03/2015 until 09/03/2015.

I will respond to your message when I return.




Note: This is an automated response to your message BIRDWG01 Digest - 5 Mar
2015 to 6 Mar 2015 (#2015-33) sent on 07/03/2015 06:00:21. This is the only
notification you will receive while this person is away.

______________________________________________________________________


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Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Columbus, Ohio Towhee
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 07:53:21 +0000
Paul,

I don't see anything about this bird that suggests to me that it might be a 
hybrid. I think that the age of the bird is a contributing factor as far as the 
suggestion of excess white at the base of the primaries. To my eye, this bird 
appears to be second-year (SY), as it appears to have faded brown retained 
juvenile flight feathers. The newer white-tipped coverts are perhaps a bit more 
eye-catching, but I don't see anything in the pattern of white that seems out 
of the ordinary for a Spotted Towhee. 


One thing that catches my eye is the buffy edges to the scaps. We get at least 
two and perhaps three different subspecies that occur in Oregon, with the 
coastal form P. m. oregonus–the least spotted of all the Spotted Towhees–being 
the resident subspecies west of the Cascades Range. East of the Cascades the 
far more heavily spotted P. m. curtatus is the presumed local breeder, but most 
sources suggest that the entire population of curtatus leaves Oregon during the 
winter months. That said, we do get a few heavily-spotted towhees that show up 
west of the Cascades during the winter months and birds of similar appearance 
(perhaps P. m. montanus) are fairly common east of the Cascades during the 
winter. I have photos of all of these forms and none of them show buffy-edged 
scaps. They all show white-edged scaps. I also have a photos of an SY bird 
photographed in the Rio Grande Valley in Feburary 2012. It does have 
buffy-edged scaps and shows molt limits. It is not a great photo, but I will 
happily send it to you privately if needed. 


The closest match that I can find to the Ohio bird appears in the 
"Identification Photos" gallery for Spotted Towhee in the BirdFellow Online 
Field Guide (link below). I curate the content for the BirdFellow website and 
my goal with the ID galleries is to show the full gamut of geographic variation 
for birds like Spotted Towhee. Image #10 in the gallery shows an apparent after 
second-year bird (ASY) that was photographed in Colorado during February by 
Steven Mlodinow. The mantle and covert pattern is virtually identical to the 
Ohio bird and it shows similar contrast between the rich burnt orange flanks 
and the paler, wash-out yellow-orange undertail. The Colorado bird shows 
buffy-edged scaps just like the Ohio bird. If you are looking for a subspecific 
match, this would seem to be a good candidate. I know that Steve follows 
ID-Frontiers and that he has an interest in Spotted Towhee variation. He may 
have other photos of Colorado towhees that he can share for comparison. 


http://www.birdfellow.com/birds/spotted-towhee-pipilo-maculatus

After clicking on the link above, Look for the red text that reads 
"Identification Photos" below the 

feature image. Click on this and then go to image #10 in the gallery. If you 
click on that image, the gallery switches over to a thumbnail format, with the 
selected image being the larger image to the right. You can click on that image 
a second time to see the full-sized file. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR  


 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Columbus, Ohio Towhee
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 13:37:11 -0500
Paul:


First off, the bird looks and sounds like a Spotted Towhee to me. If there's 
any mixing of species genes in this individual, it seems pretty minimal to me. 
Secondly, the bird is a first-cycle male (with its obvious juvenile remiges), 
so assessment of subspecies is somewhat hampered by the bird's age. 



The most likely subspecies of SPTO to occur in the east, in my opinion (and in 
the existing occurrence record), are the three easterly forms of Pyle's 
"Interior" group. The fourth of those has just too small and distant a range to 
be likely, while the Pacific races have either small ranges in which they are 
resident or larger ranges but are fairly short-distance migrants (see Pyle 
1997). Of these, arcticus, eBird's Plains Spotted Towhee, seems the most 
likely, both in proximity and overall migration length and considering that 
there is a Florida record for the subspecies. The two subspecies subsumed in 
eBird's Rocky Mountains Spotted Towhee, montanus and curtatus, are also of 
reasonable possibility, especially the latter, due to its northerly 
distribution and its relatively longer-distance migration; many montanus are 
resident, even at the northern extremity of the breeding range in Colorado. 
Additionally, though not noted as occurring in Colorado by Bailey and Niedrach 
(1965), the currently-named Denver Museum of Nature and Science (DMNS) houses 
3-4 specimens of SPTO taken in Colorado (one as far east as Denver) that Allan 
R. Phillips had penciled "curtatus" on the labels. Chris Wood and I examined 
all the specimens of the species in that museum (which include breeding-season 
specimens from within the range of curtatus), and we agreed with ARP's IDs (see 
below). 



From Pyle (1997), montanus sports the largest scapular spots (see Fig. 285, pg. 
537), and the Ohio bird seems to show very large scapular spotting, indeed. 
However, these sorts of features noted in Pyle (1997) need to be considered, at 
best, guides, not authoritative identification features. Both arcticus (27-42 
mm) and montanus (25-40 mm) have very large rectrix spots that occupy a fairly 
large percentage of the individual rectrix lengths, considering that tail 
measurements of males are 89-104 mm and 96-112 mm, respectively. As comparison, 
curtatus shows smaller rectrix spots (22-35 mm), but on a slightly shorter tail 
(90-101 mm). However, considering that the r6s are the shortest rectrices in 
Pipilo, the Ohio bird's tail spots seem to be very large and I suggest that 
they are outside the range of that of curtatus. Additionally, both Chris Wood 
and I considered, at least, adult males of curtatus to show a gray cast to the 
black plumage (certainly, all of the specimens at DMNS collected from within 
the known range of that form did, as did the very few male Colorado-collected 
specimens, unlike all of the montanus specimens in the same museum). 



So, my initial thought is that the Ohio bird is probably referable to arcticus, 
but I don't know that I can rule out montanus on plumage alone. However, I took 
a short jaunt through Xeno-Canto because I wondered about the calls of the Ohio 
bird and how they compared to those of the various possible subspecies. Though 
my sample size for each of the three subspecies was the magic n=1, there was an 
obvious difference to my ear of the call of montanus versus that of arcticus 
and curtatus, which sounded more similar to each other than to montanus. My eye 
also saw an obvious difference in the sonograms, and those differences ran 
along the very same lines, with both arcticus and curtatus exhibiting an 
upslur, while montanus exhibited an overslur (terminology from Pieplow 2007 and 
from that author's earbirding.com blog; 
http://earbirding.com/blog/specs/pitch-and-inflection). 



arcticus call:  http://www.xeno-canto.org/104526
 sonogram: 
http://www.xeno-canto.org/sounds/uploaded/OJMFAOUBDU/ffts/XC104526-full.png 



curtatus call:  http://www.xeno-canto.org/127009
 sonogram: 
http://www.xeno-canto.org/sounds/uploaded/KZYUWIRZVH/ffts/XC127009-full.png 



montanus call:  http://www.xeno-canto.org/14843
 sonogram: 
http://www.xeno-canto.org/sounds/uploaded/CDTGHVBGZP/ffts/XC14843-full.png 



So, I suggest that someone with more capability than me to analyze the Ohio's 
birds calls in this context. 



Literature Cited


Bailey, A. M. and R. J. Niedrach. 1965. Birds of Colorado. Denver Museum of 
Natural History, Denver. 

Pieplow, N. D. 2007. Describing bird sounds in words. Birding 39:48-54.
Pyle, P. 1997. Identification Guide to North American Birds, part I. Slate 
Creek Press, Bolinas, CA. 





Sincerely,


Tony


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL
http://cowyebird.blogspot.com/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/



-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Gardner 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Thu, Mar 5, 2015 12:13 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Columbus, Ohio Towhee


A Spotted Towhee visited Columbus, Ohio for a few days in February 2015. In a
discussion on the Central Ohio Birding Facebook Group, some people raised the
question of hybridization with Eastern Towhee, seemingly based on a small 
amount 

of white at the base of the primaries. Others think it is within the normal
range of variation for Spotted Towhee, but are unsure about which subspecies is
the best fit. The bird was well photographed, and there is even 15 second video
that includes a
call.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/18975581 AT N02/sets/72157650770191220/



All insights are welcome.

Paul Gardner 
Secretary, Ohio Bird Records
Committee 
Columbus, OH

Archives:
http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Columbus, Ohio Towhee
From: Paul Gardner <godwit AT SBCGLOBAL.NET>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 08:55:11 -0800
A Spotted Towhee visited Columbus, Ohio for a few days in February 2015. In a 
discussion on the Central Ohio Birding Facebook Group, some people raised the 
question of hybridization with Eastern Towhee, seemingly based on a small 
amount of white at the base of the primaries. Others think it is within the 
normal range of variation for Spotted Towhee, but are unsure about which 
subspecies is the best fit. The bird was well photographed, and there is even 
15 second video that includes a call. 



https://www.flickr.com/photos/18975581 AT N02/sets/72157650770191220/

 
All insights are welcome.

Paul Gardner 
Secretary, Ohio Bird Records Committee 
Columbus, OH

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fw: Blackbird link
From: Allen Chartier <amazilia3 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 16:16:00 -0500
Mark,

Interesting to see these photos. There was a very black Rusty Blackbird at
a feeder in Macomb County, Michigan that I went to see on January 9, and
its appearance most closely matched photo 3, and 26-32 in your series. In
other words, very little rusty edging present on that early date.
Unfortunately, failing light meant my photos are pretty poor. Any Rusty
Blackbird is very rare in winter this far north, and Brewer's is even less
likely.

Allen T. Chartier
Inkster, Michigan
Email: amazilia3 AT gmail.com
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mihummingbirdguy/collections/
Website: www.amazilia.net
Blog: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/

On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Mark Szantyr  wrote:

> http://birddog55.zenfolio.com/p613906400
>
> This is just an FYI but after having shared these recent images with Dave
> Irons, he suggested that I might share these with the rest of the folks
> involved in this very interesting discussion.  There Rusty Blackbird
> images  were taken on 6 February 2015 in Connecticut.
>
> Mark
>
> Mark Szantyr
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 2:40 AM, David Irons  wrote:
>
> > As Peter Pyle indicates, Brewer's and Rusty Blackbirds have a limited
> > prealternate molt, which is contrary to quite a bit of literature that
> says
> > they have no prealternate molt. In some of Rob's photos, there appears to
> > be evidence of this, with unopened white feather sheaths evident on the
> > side of head and neck. We watched a first-winter male Rusty Blackbird
> > molting last March here in Oregon. I took photos of the bird on
> successive
> > weekends that clearly showed similar white feather sheaths. That bird's
> > head pattern changed considerably in just a week's time.
> >
> > Dave Irons
> > Portland, OR
> >
> > > Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 19:03:20 -0800
> > > From: ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG
> > > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link
> > > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > >
> > > So, the rust fringe to the feathers in Rusty and Brewer's Blackbirds
> > > occurs on fresh basic and formative feathers in fall, and the
> > > fringing largely wears (or breaks) off during winter in spring. The
> > > rate at which the fringing wears off varies individually, resulting
> > > in birds becoming "all black" at various times over the winter. I
> > > don't know specifics but would guess that, by early March, about half
> > > look pretty black. Most to all November-December birds, by contrast,
> > > are moderately to heavily fringed rust. The point is that it's not an
> > > either/or but a gradually changing situation within the population.
> > >
> > > Rusty Blackbirds also have a prealternate molt, in which some of the
> > > head feathers get replaced in March-April, and this also contributes
> > > to some of the change, but not all of it.
> > >
> > > Brewer's differs in that the first-year males have a lot more
> > > fringing than adults. As recently confirmed in photos by Dave Irons,
> > > they also have a limited prealternate molt of head feathers but,
> > > again, most of the change toward black plumage occurs due to wear.
> > >
> > > All of this will be in an upcoming paper by Lukas Musher et al. in
> > > Western Birds.
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > At 04:07 PM 3/3/2015, Rob Parsons wrote:
> > > >Kevin,
> > > >
> > > >With all due respect, I have to firmly and utterly disagree with:
> > > >"all [Rusty Blackbirds]...in winter show obvious rust color to their
> > > >plumage." This statement is, to put it as tactfully as I can, not
> > > >helpful with certain problematic individual birds.
> > > >
> > > >If only it were that simple.  I have seen at least three totally
> > > >all-black males in winter (December) and two of them were
> > > >photographed and then identified (by structure) by knowledgeable
> > > >birders as Rusty Blackbirds.  I think I still have photos of one of
> > > >them if you'd care to see it. Relying on plumage alone--subject to
> > > >anomalies in molt--is risky.
> > > >
> > > >As an aside, this particular bird was not one of those "problematic"
> > > >birds--everyone (including me) who saw the photos identified it as a
> > > >Brewer's.  I only posted it to this list at the request of Bob
> > > >Luterbach, who also thought it was a Brewer's but sought more
> > > >input.  Thank you to everyone who responded.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Cheers,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Rob Parsons
> > > >Winnipeg, MB
> > > >CANADA
> > > >parsons8 AT mts.net
> > > >
> > > >Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> > >
> > > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Mark S. Szantyr
> 56 Maple Road
> Storrs Mansfield, CT 06268
>
> 860-429-2641
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fw: Blackbird link
From: Mark Szantyr <birddog55 AT CHARTER.NET>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 15:13:14 -0500
http://birddog55.zenfolio.com/p613906400

This is just an FYI but after having shared these recent images with Dave
Irons, he suggested that I might share these with the rest of the folks
involved in this very interesting discussion.  There Rusty Blackbird
images  were taken on 6 February 2015 in Connecticut.

Mark

Mark Szantyr

On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 2:40 AM, David Irons  wrote:

> As Peter Pyle indicates, Brewer's and Rusty Blackbirds have a limited
> prealternate molt, which is contrary to quite a bit of literature that says
> they have no prealternate molt. In some of Rob's photos, there appears to
> be evidence of this, with unopened white feather sheaths evident on the
> side of head and neck. We watched a first-winter male Rusty Blackbird
> molting last March here in Oregon. I took photos of the bird on successive
> weekends that clearly showed similar white feather sheaths. That bird's
> head pattern changed considerably in just a week's time.
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> > Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 19:03:20 -0800
> > From: ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >
> > So, the rust fringe to the feathers in Rusty and Brewer's Blackbirds
> > occurs on fresh basic and formative feathers in fall, and the
> > fringing largely wears (or breaks) off during winter in spring. The
> > rate at which the fringing wears off varies individually, resulting
> > in birds becoming "all black" at various times over the winter. I
> > don't know specifics but would guess that, by early March, about half
> > look pretty black. Most to all November-December birds, by contrast,
> > are moderately to heavily fringed rust. The point is that it's not an
> > either/or but a gradually changing situation within the population.
> >
> > Rusty Blackbirds also have a prealternate molt, in which some of the
> > head feathers get replaced in March-April, and this also contributes
> > to some of the change, but not all of it.
> >
> > Brewer's differs in that the first-year males have a lot more
> > fringing than adults. As recently confirmed in photos by Dave Irons,
> > they also have a limited prealternate molt of head feathers but,
> > again, most of the change toward black plumage occurs due to wear.
> >
> > All of this will be in an upcoming paper by Lukas Musher et al. in
> > Western Birds.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > At 04:07 PM 3/3/2015, Rob Parsons wrote:
> > >Kevin,
> > >
> > >With all due respect, I have to firmly and utterly disagree with:
> > >"all [Rusty Blackbirds]...in winter show obvious rust color to their
> > >plumage." This statement is, to put it as tactfully as I can, not
> > >helpful with certain problematic individual birds.
> > >
> > >If only it were that simple.  I have seen at least three totally
> > >all-black males in winter (December) and two of them were
> > >photographed and then identified (by structure) by knowledgeable
> > >birders as Rusty Blackbirds.  I think I still have photos of one of
> > >them if you'd care to see it. Relying on plumage alone--subject to
> > >anomalies in molt--is risky.
> > >
> > >As an aside, this particular bird was not one of those "problematic"
> > >birds--everyone (including me) who saw the photos identified it as a
> > >Brewer's.  I only posted it to this list at the request of Bob
> > >Luterbach, who also thought it was a Brewer's but sought more
> > >input.  Thank you to everyone who responded.
> > >
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> > >
> > >
> > >Rob Parsons
> > >Winnipeg, MB
> > >CANADA
> > >parsons8 AT mts.net
> > >
> > >Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Mark S. Szantyr
56 Maple Road
Storrs Mansfield, CT 06268

860-429-2641

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fw: Blackbird link
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 07:40:23 +0000
As Peter Pyle indicates, Brewer's and Rusty Blackbirds have a limited 
prealternate molt, which is contrary to quite a bit of literature that says 
they have no prealternate molt. In some of Rob's photos, there appears to be 
evidence of this, with unopened white feather sheaths evident on the side of 
head and neck. We watched a first-winter male Rusty Blackbird molting last 
March here in Oregon. I took photos of the bird on successive weekends that 
clearly showed similar white feather sheaths. That bird's head pattern changed 
considerably in just a week's time. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR 

> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 19:03:20 -0800
> From: ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> So, the rust fringe to the feathers in Rusty and Brewer's Blackbirds 
> occurs on fresh basic and formative feathers in fall, and the 
> fringing largely wears (or breaks) off during winter in spring. The 
> rate at which the fringing wears off varies individually, resulting 
> in birds becoming "all black" at various times over the winter. I 
> don't know specifics but would guess that, by early March, about half 
> look pretty black. Most to all November-December birds, by contrast, 
> are moderately to heavily fringed rust. The point is that it's not an 
> either/or but a gradually changing situation within the population.
> 
> Rusty Blackbirds also have a prealternate molt, in which some of the 
> head feathers get replaced in March-April, and this also contributes 
> to some of the change, but not all of it.
> 
> Brewer's differs in that the first-year males have a lot more 
> fringing than adults. As recently confirmed in photos by Dave Irons, 
> they also have a limited prealternate molt of head feathers but, 
> again, most of the change toward black plumage occurs due to wear.
> 
> All of this will be in an upcoming paper by Lukas Musher et al. in 
> Western Birds.
> 
> Peter
> 
> At 04:07 PM 3/3/2015, Rob Parsons wrote:
> >Kevin,
> >
> >With all due respect, I have to firmly and utterly disagree with: 
> >"all [Rusty Blackbirds]...in winter show obvious rust color to their 
> >plumage." This statement is, to put it as tactfully as I can, not 
> >helpful with certain problematic individual birds.
> >
> >If only it were that simple.  I have seen at least three totally 
> >all-black males in winter (December) and two of them were 
> >photographed and then identified (by structure) by knowledgeable 
> >birders as Rusty Blackbirds.  I think I still have photos of one of 
> >them if you'd care to see it. Relying on plumage alone--subject to 
> >anomalies in molt--is risky.
> >
> >As an aside, this particular bird was not one of those "problematic" 
> >birds--everyone (including me) who saw the photos identified it as a 
> >Brewer's.  I only posted it to this list at the request of Bob 
> >Luterbach, who also thought it was a Brewer's but sought more 
> >input.  Thank you to everyone who responded.
> >
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >
> >Rob Parsons
> >Winnipeg, MB
> >CANADA
> >parsons8 AT mts.net
> >
> >Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fw: Blackbird link
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 19:35:26 -0800
Rob et al. 

 I know what you mean. The plumage issue is an interesting one in this 
blackbird, and others...and starlings for that matter. The "breeding" plumage 
is acquired by the wear of feather tips in Euphagus, so it is dependent on the 
width of feather edging, as well as the environment that the feathers find 
themselves in. Both of those are variable. So indeed some Rusty Blackbirds can 
look black way too early, and some young male Brewer's can be way too rusty 
tipped, enough to make you look twice. It is a bit more subtle and variable 
than a change of appearance due to molt. I do wonder if the feather tips on 
Euphagus are also particularly easily worn, sort of like the sub terminal parts 
of tail feathers on motmots, so that by the time the breeding season arrives 
essentially all of the birds are black and shiny? 

 Finally, people ignore blackbirds. How many folks actually take the time to 
figure out how to identify Tricolored vs. Red-winged Blackbirds in California? 
Most do not, they just look for the obvious ones in the flock and there you go. 
I am guilty of this much of the time myself, but realize it is not the most 
informative way to be identifying these guys. There is a Birding article from 
way back when on the subject, not sure it made any impact :-) 


Regards, 
Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Rob Parsons 

Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 4:08 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link

Kevin,

With all due respect, I have to firmly and utterly disagree with: "all [Rusty 
Blackbirds]...in winter show obvious rust color to their plumage." 

This statement is, to put it as tactfully as I can, not helpful with certain 
problematic individual birds. 


If only it were that simple. I have seen at least three totally all-black males 
in winter (December) and two of them were photographed and then identified (by 
structure) by knowledgeable birders as Rusty Blackbirds. I think I still have 
photos of one of them if you'd care to see it. Relying on plumage 
alone--subject to anomalies in molt--is risky. 


As an aside, this particular bird was not one of those "problematic" 
birds--everyone (including me) who saw the photos identified it as a Brewer's. 
I only posted it to this list at the request of Bob Luterbach, who also thought 
it was a Brewer's but sought more input. Thank you to everyone who responded. 



Cheers,


Rob Parsons
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA
parsons8 AT mts.net

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fw: Blackbird link
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 19:03:20 -0800
So, the rust fringe to the feathers in Rusty and Brewer's Blackbirds 
occurs on fresh basic and formative feathers in fall, and the 
fringing largely wears (or breaks) off during winter in spring. The 
rate at which the fringing wears off varies individually, resulting 
in birds becoming "all black" at various times over the winter. I 
don't know specifics but would guess that, by early March, about half 
look pretty black. Most to all November-December birds, by contrast, 
are moderately to heavily fringed rust. The point is that it's not an 
either/or but a gradually changing situation within the population.

Rusty Blackbirds also have a prealternate molt, in which some of the 
head feathers get replaced in March-April, and this also contributes 
to some of the change, but not all of it.

Brewer's differs in that the first-year males have a lot more 
fringing than adults. As recently confirmed in photos by Dave Irons, 
they also have a limited prealternate molt of head feathers but, 
again, most of the change toward black plumage occurs due to wear.

All of this will be in an upcoming paper by Lukas Musher et al. in 
Western Birds.

Peter

At 04:07 PM 3/3/2015, Rob Parsons wrote:
>Kevin,
>
>With all due respect, I have to firmly and utterly disagree with: 
>"all [Rusty Blackbirds]...in winter show obvious rust color to their 
>plumage." This statement is, to put it as tactfully as I can, not 
>helpful with certain problematic individual birds.
>
>If only it were that simple.  I have seen at least three totally 
>all-black males in winter (December) and two of them were 
>photographed and then identified (by structure) by knowledgeable 
>birders as Rusty Blackbirds.  I think I still have photos of one of 
>them if you'd care to see it. Relying on plumage alone--subject to 
>anomalies in molt--is risky.
>
>As an aside, this particular bird was not one of those "problematic" 
>birds--everyone (including me) who saw the photos identified it as a 
>Brewer's.  I only posted it to this list at the request of Bob 
>Luterbach, who also thought it was a Brewer's but sought more 
>input.  Thank you to everyone who responded.
>
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>Rob Parsons
>Winnipeg, MB
>CANADA
>parsons8 AT mts.net
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fw: Blackbird link
From: Rob Parsons <parsons8 AT MYMTS.NET>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 18:07:57 -0600
Kevin,

With all due respect, I have to firmly and utterly disagree with: "all 
[Rusty Blackbirds]...in winter show obvious rust color to their plumage." 
This statement is, to put it as tactfully as I can, not helpful with certain 
problematic individual birds.

If only it were that simple.  I have seen at least three totally all-black 
males in winter (December) and two of them were photographed and then 
identified (by structure) by knowledgeable birders as Rusty Blackbirds.  I 
think I still have photos of one of them if you'd care to see it. Relying on 
plumage alone--subject to anomalies in molt--is risky.

As an aside, this particular bird was not one of those "problematic" 
birds--everyone (including me) who saw the photos identified it as a 
Brewer's.  I only posted it to this list at the request of Bob Luterbach, 
who also thought it was a Brewer's but sought more input.  Thank you to 
everyone who responded.


Cheers,


Rob Parsons
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA
parsons8 AT mts.net

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fw: Blackbird link
From: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 23:59:55 +0000
All: here is a link to a photo of a male Rusty Blackbird taken in NJ in 
January, and a female taken in November. While I am sure variation occurs in 
males, with some mostly or all black, the pale eyebrow and rust tones to the 
plumage are more common by far than all black males. I can see males being all 
black by March, as Rex points out, but not typically in mid-winter. 
http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Songbirds/Icterids/Rusty+Blackbird_+male+nonbreeding_+NJ_+Jan.jpg.html 
; 
http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Songbirds/Icterids/Rusty+Blackbird_+nonbreeding_+NJ_+Nov.jpg.html 


Kevin Karlson 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Rex Rowan"  
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 6:45:57 PM 
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link 

I agree with Dave that this is a Brewer's, but would disagree with a 
secondary point: in a flock of about 35 Rusty Blackbirds seen yesterday in 
Gainesville, Florida, most of the males showed no discernible pale feather 
edges. 

Rex Rowan 
Gainesville, Florida 

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:28 PM, David Irons  wrote: 

> Rob, 
> 
> On my home turf (western Oregon) I would call this a Brewer's without 
> hesitation. Structurally, the bill seems a bit short and blunt tipped for a 
> Rusty. The pattern and color of the iridescence seems spot-on for Brewer's. 
> The absence of any pale feather edges, which I would expect to see at this 
> season, points away from Rusty 
> 
> Dave Irons 
> Portland, OR 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 
> 
> > On Mar 2, 2015, at 1:59 PM, "Rob Parsons"  wrote: 
> > 
> > Hi all, 
> > 
> > This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty 
> & Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species. 
> Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird. We would love to have a bit 
> more feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in 
> winter. The following link will take you to the three photos: 
> > 
> > http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp 
> > 
> > Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob 
> Luterbach at tsb2001 AT sasktel.net 
> > 
> > Cheers, 
> > 
> > 
> > Rob Parsons 
> > Winnipeg, MB 
> > CANADA 
> > parsons8 AT mts.net 
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html 
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html 
> 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Blackbird link
From: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 23:50:43 +0000
Chris and all: 
I should have qualified that most Rustys seen in winter (and this bird has been 
in this location all winter, not just March1) show some rust to the plumage, 
and males that show a mostly black plumage in winter usually have some rust 
tips to their feathers (often the mantle) until late winter. But the glossy 
purple head and greenish back contrast is something that male Rustys don't 
show. They are mostly blackish overall. By March, male Rusty Blackbird can show 
a full black plumage, and a very close look at winter males may reveal some 
fine rust tips to the mantle (or not, I guess, according to Chris and maybe 
some other members). I just know that when I looked through fairly large flocks 
of Rusty Blackbirds in late fall and winter over the years, most show some rust 
to the plumage. The all black male in winter without rust in the plumage is in 
the small minority, in my opinion. Kevin Karlson 


----- Original Message -----

From: "Christopher Hill"  
To: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET, BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 6:25:35 PM 
Subject: RE: Blackbird link 

I'm going to chime in with a dissenting view, not of the ID - I also lean 
Brewer's - but of the idea that Rusties in Winter always show rusty coloration. 
I admit I do not see them that often, but even on a Christmas Bird Count 
season, so in December to January, I have seen Rusties that were completely 
black. I'm thinking of a particular bird in wet woods, very much in Rusty 
Blackbird habitat, in mid-December a few years ago. I have no photos to argue 
over, sorry. If others want to chime in I'm all ears. But I don't think "all 
glossy black on the first of March" is in any way definitive for Brewer's over 
Rusty. 


Chris Hill 
Conway, SC 



________________________________________ 
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET 
[karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET] 

Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 4:38 PM 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link 

Rob, 
it is a male Brewer's Blackbird. Even with the odd posture where you can't 
evaluate the structural features of the bird, Rusty's of both sexes always show 
a moderate to a lot of rust (females) coloration throughout their entire 
plumage. We used to see tons of Rusty Blackbirds in winter in NJ, but now they 
are somewhat scarce, and all that I have seen over 30+ years in winter show 
obvious rust color to their plumage. Given the time of year (winter), and the 
complete lack of any rust color in the feathers, it is safe to say this is a 
Brewer's. Male Rusty also lacks the strong contrasting purplish head and 
greenish back. Kevin Karlson 


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Rob Parsons"  
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 4:25:18 PM 
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link 

Hi all, 

This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty & 
Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species. 
Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird. We would love to have a bit 
more feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in 
winter. The following link will take you to the three photos: 

http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp 

Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob 
Luterbach at tsb2001 AT sasktel.net 

Cheers, 


Rob Parsons 
Winnipeg, MB 
CANADA 
parsons8 AT mts.net 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Blackbird link
From: Christopher Hill <Chill AT COASTAL.EDU>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 18:25:35 -0500
I'm going to chime in with a dissenting view, not of the ID - I also lean 
Brewer's - but of the idea that Rusties in Winter always show rusty coloration. 
I admit I do not see them that often, but even on a Christmas Bird Count 
season, so in December to January, I have seen Rusties that were completely 
black. I'm thinking of a particular bird in wet woods, very much in Rusty 
Blackbird habitat, in mid-December a few years ago. I have no photos to argue 
over, sorry. If others want to chime in I'm all ears. But I don't think "all 
glossy black on the first of March" is in any way definitive for Brewer's over 
Rusty. 


Chris Hill
Conway, SC



________________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET 
[karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET] 

Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 4:38 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link

Rob,
it is a male Brewer's Blackbird. Even with the odd posture where you can't 
evaluate the structural features of the bird, Rusty's of both sexes always show 
a moderate to a lot of rust (females) coloration throughout their entire 
plumage. We used to see tons of Rusty Blackbirds in winter in NJ, but now they 
are somewhat scarce, and all that I have seen over 30+ years in winter show 
obvious rust color to their plumage. Given the time of year (winter), and the 
complete lack of any rust color in the feathers, it is safe to say this is a 
Brewer's. Male Rusty also lacks the strong contrasting purplish head and 
greenish back. Kevin Karlson 


----- Original Message -----

From: "Rob Parsons" 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 4:25:18 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link

Hi all,

This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty &
Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species.
Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird. We would love to have a bit
more feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in
winter. The following link will take you to the three photos:

http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp

Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob
Luterbach at tsb2001 AT sasktel.net

Cheers,


Rob Parsons
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA
parsons8 AT mts.net

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fw: Blackbird link
From: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 21:38:34 +0000
Rob, 
it is a male Brewer's Blackbird. Even with the odd posture where you can't 
evaluate the structural features of the bird, Rusty's of both sexes always show 
a moderate to a lot of rust (females) coloration throughout their entire 
plumage. We used to see tons of Rusty Blackbirds in winter in NJ, but now they 
are somewhat scarce, and all that I have seen over 30+ years in winter show 
obvious rust color to their plumage. Given the time of year (winter), and the 
complete lack of any rust color in the feathers, it is safe to say this is a 
Brewer's. Male Rusty also lacks the strong contrasting purplish head and 
greenish back. Kevin Karlson 


----- Original Message -----

From: "Rob Parsons"  
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 4:25:18 PM 
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link 

Hi all, 

This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty & 
Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species. 
Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird. We would love to have a bit 
more feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in 
winter. The following link will take you to the three photos: 

http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp 

Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob 
Luterbach at tsb2001 AT sasktel.net 

Cheers, 


Rob Parsons 
Winnipeg, MB 
CANADA 
parsons8 AT mts.net 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Slaty-backed candidate from Nebraska
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 12:58:38 -0600
Here's a(nother) Nebraska 1st-cycle Slaty-backed candidate. This guy was at
Lake McConaughy on Sunday afternoon, along with 7 other gull species
including GBBG and Iceland. To me this is a very striking bird with several
Slaty-backed characteristics...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157651130417031/

Noah Arthur, Lincoln, NE/Oakland, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fw: Blackbird link
From: Rex Rowan <rexrowan AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 18:45:57 -0500
I agree with Dave that this is a Brewer's, but would disagree with a
secondary point: in a flock of about 35 Rusty Blackbirds seen yesterday in
Gainesville, Florida, most of the males showed no discernible pale feather
edges.

Rex Rowan
Gainesville, Florida

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:28 PM, David Irons  wrote:

> Rob,
>
> On my home turf (western Oregon) I would call this a Brewer's without
> hesitation. Structurally, the bill seems a bit short and blunt tipped for a
> Rusty. The pattern and color of the iridescence seems spot-on for Brewer's.
> The absence of any pale feather edges, which I would expect to see at this
> season, points away from Rusty
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Mar 2, 2015, at 1:59 PM, "Rob Parsons"  wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty
> & Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species.
> Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird.  We would love to have a bit
> more feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in
> winter.  The following link will take you to the three photos:
> >
> > http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp
> >
> > Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob
> Luterbach at tsb2001 AT sasktel.net
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> >
> > Rob Parsons
> > Winnipeg, MB
> > CANADA
> > parsons8 AT mts.net
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fw: Blackbird link
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 14:28:43 -0800
Rob,

On my home turf (western Oregon) I would call this a Brewer's without 
hesitation. Structurally, the bill seems a bit short and blunt tipped for a 
Rusty. The pattern and color of the iridescence seems spot-on for Brewer's. The 
absence of any pale feather edges, which I would expect to see at this season, 
points away from Rusty 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 2, 2015, at 1:59 PM, "Rob Parsons"  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty & 
Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species. 
Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird. We would love to have a bit more 
feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in winter. The 
following link will take you to the three photos: 

> 
> http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp
> 
> Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob 
Luterbach at tsb2001 AT sasktel.net 

> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> Rob Parsons
> Winnipeg, MB
> CANADA
> parsons8 AT mts.net 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Fw: Blackbird link
From: Rob Parsons <parsons8 AT MYMTS.NET>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 15:25:18 -0600
Hi all,

This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty & 
Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species. 
Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird.  We would love to have a bit 
more feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in 
winter.  The following link will take you to the three photos:

http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp

Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob 
Luterbach at tsb2001 AT sasktel.net

Cheers,


Rob Parsons
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA
parsons8 AT mts.net 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Thick-billed Murre photos?
From: Chris Hill <chill AT COASTAL.EDU>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:29:01 -0500
Thanks to all who have replied both on and off list, and forwarded helpful 
links and references. It has been very helpful, and nobody has expressed any 
concerns about the ID as Thick-billed Murre. In fact, some have been as much as 
200% certain about it :-) 


Chris

> On Feb 26, 2015, at 7:08 AM, norman deans van swelm  
wrote: 

> 
> Indeed, as Bruce says, a TBMU and I like to add a 1st winter individual. As 
to the question of breeding plumage in winter, most individuals of the nominate 
race of Common Murre (Guillemot) U.a.aalge incl. the bridled variant I have 
found in December were in full beeding plumage, none so of the southern rave 
albionis. 

> Norman
>  
> > Definitely a Thick-billed Murre. 
> > 
> > The pointed bill with tapered head rules out Razorbill. The dark face and 
relatively short bill is good for TBMU and wrong for COMU. 

> > 
> > The bird is not in breeding plumage. There is some paleness observable on 
the throat even while the bird is in a slouched down position. 

> > 
> > Bruce Mactavish
> > St. John's, Newfoundland
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU ] On Behalf 
Of Chris Hill 

> > Sent: February-25-15 6:17 PM
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Thick-billed Murre photos?
> > 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > The South Carolina bird record committee will be voting on these photos 
some time soon: 

> > 
> > http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/Bendoritis/tbmu.html 
 

> > 
> > I haven’t set eyes on a murre of any sort in 16 years and wondered if 
those who deal with large alcid ID more regularly might comment, as the photos 
are somewhat distant and a little blurry. 

> > 
> > I see a bird in breeding plumage (is this normal for Feb 17?) with a bill 
that looks too small for a razorbill, and white wing linings. Which would I 
guess add up to TB Murre, but with how much confidence? 

> > 
> > In this area Razorbill would be the most likely alcid, with dovekie close 
behind, then much rarer Thick-billed Murre, then even rarer Common Murre. 

> > 
> > Chris Hill
> > ************************************************************************
> > Christopher E. Hill
> > Biology Department
> > Coastal Carolina University
> > Conway, SC 29528-1954
> > 843-349-2567
> > chill AT coastal.edu 
> > http://ww2.coastal.edu/chill/chill.htm 
 

> > 
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html 
 

> > 
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html 
 

> > 
> > 
> > -----
> > Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht.
> > Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com 
> > Versie: 2015.0.5736 / Virusdatabase: 4299/9178 - datum van uitgifte: 
02/25/15 

> >

************************************************************************
Christopher E. Hill
Biology Department
Coastal Carolina University
Conway, SC 29528-1954
843-349-2567
chill AT coastal.edu
http://ww2.coastal.edu/chill/chill.htm






Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Thick-billed Murre photos?
From: Paul Guris <paulagics.com AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 21:16:17 -0500
Here's a good link about some birds that appeared in Mass. back in 1998.
The pictures and comments are instructive, especially the first one by some
guy named "Bruce".  The information on how they molt in their face and neck
is pertinent to your bird.

http://www.virtualbirder.com/vbirder/rba/murre/id.html



-PAG

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Bruce Mactavish <
bruce.mactavish1 AT nf.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Definitely a Thick-billed Murre.
>
> The pointed bill with tapered head rules out Razorbill. The dark face and
> relatively short bill is good for TBMU and wrong for COMU.
>
> The bird is not in breeding plumage. There is some paleness observable on
> the throat even while the bird is in a slouched down position.
>
> Bruce Mactavish
> St. John's, Newfoundland
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris Hill
> Sent: February-25-15 6:17 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Thick-billed Murre photos?
>
> Hi all,
>
> The South Carolina bird record committee will be voting on these photos
> some time soon:
>
> http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/Bendoritis/tbmu.html
>
> I haven’t set eyes on a murre of any sort in 16 years and wondered if
> those who deal with large alcid ID more regularly might comment, as the
> photos are somewhat distant and a little blurry.
>
> I see a bird in breeding plumage (is this normal for Feb 17?) with a bill
> that looks too small for a razorbill, and white wing linings.  Which would
> I guess add up to TB Murre, but with how much confidence?
>
> In this area Razorbill would be the most likely alcid, with dovekie close
> behind, then much rarer Thick-billed Murre, then even rarer Common Murre.
>
> Chris Hill
> ************************************************************************
> Christopher E. Hill
> Biology Department
> Coastal Carolina University
> Conway, SC 29528-1954
> 843-349-2567
> chill AT coastal.edu
> http://ww2.coastal.edu/chill/chill.htm
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 







*Paul A. GurisSee Life PaulagicsPO Box 161Green Lane, PA
18054215-234-6805www.paulagics.com paulagics.com
 AT gmail.com info AT paulagics.com
*

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Thick-billed Murre photos?
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1 AT NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:39:22 -0330
Definitely a Thick-billed Murre. 

The pointed bill with tapered head rules out Razorbill. The dark face and 
relatively short bill is good for TBMU and wrong for COMU. 


The bird is not in breeding plumage. There is some paleness observable on the 
throat even while the bird is in a slouched down position. 


Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris Hill 

Sent: February-25-15 6:17 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Thick-billed Murre photos?

Hi all,

The South Carolina bird record committee will be voting on these photos some 
time soon: 


http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/Bendoritis/tbmu.html

I haven’t set eyes on a murre of any sort in 16 years and wondered if those 
who deal with large alcid ID more regularly might comment, as the photos are 
somewhat distant and a little blurry. 


I see a bird in breeding plumage (is this normal for Feb 17?) with a bill that 
looks too small for a razorbill, and white wing linings. Which would I guess 
add up to TB Murre, but with how much confidence? 


In this area Razorbill would be the most likely alcid, with dovekie close 
behind, then much rarer Thick-billed Murre, then even rarer Common Murre. 


Chris Hill
************************************************************************
Christopher E. Hill
Biology Department
Coastal Carolina University
Conway, SC 29528-1954
843-349-2567
chill AT coastal.edu
http://ww2.coastal.edu/chill/chill.htm

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Thick-billed Murre photos?
From: Chris Hill <chill AT COASTAL.EDU>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 16:47:21 -0500
Hi all,

The South Carolina bird record committee will be voting on these photos some 
time soon: 


http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/Bendoritis/tbmu.html

I haven’t set eyes on a murre of any sort in 16 years and wondered if those 
who deal with large alcid ID more regularly might comment, as the photos are 
somewhat distant and a little blurry. 


I see a bird in breeding plumage (is this normal for Feb 17?) with a bill that 
looks too small for a razorbill, and white wing linings. Which would I guess 
add up to TB Murre, but with how much confidence? 


In this area Razorbill would be the most likely alcid, with dovekie close 
behind, then much rarer Thick-billed Murre, then even rarer Common Murre. 


Chris Hill
************************************************************************
Christopher E. Hill
Biology Department
Coastal Carolina University
Conway, SC 29528-1954
843-349-2567
chill AT coastal.edu
http://ww2.coastal.edu/chill/chill.htm

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Individual bird ID help needed
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 07:58:25 +0000
Hi Noah,
 
Your link takes us to a flikr album with two images on it:-
"P1012293 - Copy" and  "P1012610 - Copy"

If you are asking us to compare these images I don’t think "P1012610 - Copy" 
gives us enough information for a meaningful comparison. 


In both images I see a large sawtooth checker pattern comprising the nape, 
mantle and scapulars on both images, which is what I am assuming you are 
referring to. As you say that pattern is not visible in other images you have 
in the sequence such as https://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/16400046969/ 
so it must be due to shadow. I think this could just be coincidence. 


You mentioned flight shots.  Are these available anywhere?

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Noah Arthur 

Sent: 20 February 2015 01:56
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Individual bird ID help needed

Hi everyone. Here are two photos of 1st-cycle gulls at Branched Oak Lake, 
Lincoln, NE, taken a few days apart. The first one was a good Slaty-backed 
candidate. I got flight shots of only the second one... What do you think, are 
these photos of the same individual? 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157650856180026/

I'm seeing what looks like the same pattern of light and dark feathering on the 
back, but could this just be light and shadow? At different angles, that dark 
"saddle" seemed to disappear entirely... But it looks real in these head-on 
photos... 


Noah Arthur, Lincoln, NE/Oakland, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
From: Dominic Mitchell <dominic.mitchell AT YAHOO.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 07:24:23 +0000
Hi Norman
Unless I missed it, I don't recall anyone posting or citing an opinion on 
behalf of a rarities committee to this thread. 

Atlantis Yellow-legged Gulls do not breed on the Portuguese coast and in fact 
have not been recorded at all in the Iberian peninsula (see e.g. de Juana and 
Garcia 2015), even if "birds in Galicia, and perhaps others on the Atlantic 
coast, have some affinities with atlantis" (same ref) and intermediate DNA 
(Olsen and Larsson 2003). These birds which I assume you are referring to are 
so-called 'lusitanicus' ('cantabricans'), generally now included 
within michahellis, From memory, however, there is one recent claim from 
coastal Portugal of a well-photographed adult atlantis currently under 
assessment by the Portuguese Rarities Committee. 

I can't comment on the similarities in timing of breeding and moult between 
LBBG and mainland Portuguese Yellow-legged Gulls, but the moult in 
pukka atlantis from the Azores is certainly earlier than in Lesser 
Black-backed Gull (irrespective of odd individuals being earlier or later than 
average). According to Olsen and Larsson 2003 moult in atlantis is also 
slightly earlier than in michahellis, which obviously also moults ahead 
of fuscus. 

Dominic Mitchell 
----------------------------------------------------------------Managing Editor 
| Birdwatch and BirdGuidesBlog: www.birdingetc.com | 
Twitter:  AT birdingetc Facebook | Bird tours: Azores and more 

 

     From: norman deans van swelm 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Thursday, 19 February 2015, 21:40
 Subject: Fw: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
   
 The only thing that is diagnostic in these gulls Dominic is that the 
exception is rule that is why the opinion of rarity committees is irrelevant. 
Atlantis isn't an extreme rarity along the Portuguese coast, so many breed in 
the area that large numbers have been culled in the past! The timing of 
breeding of LBBG and Portuguese Atlantic gulls is more or less similar and 
so is the timing of moult. In both there are juveniles which obtain 1st 
winter plumage early as well as there are those which moult late. Among 
Portuguese and Spanish Atlantis there have been mixed pairs with LBBG's.Cheers, 
Norman 

Dominic Mitchell writes: Bom dia Luis 
Thanks for your 'change' to my 50 cents!
I think we all agree that large gulls are highly variable and complex in 
plumage terms, that there is often overlap (sometimes considerable) across a 
wide range characters and that, in younger stages of 'close' taxa such as 
Lesser Black-backed and atlantis Yellow-legged Gulls (a taxon originally 
described as a subspecies of Lesser Black-back by Dwight in 1922), seemingly 
little is truly diagnostic. So, in the absence of  scoring system for 
characters such as that devised for Caspian Gull by Gibbins et al (2010 in 
British Birds), first-cycle birds like yours generally come down to an 
identification based partly on jizz and probability as well as actual field 
marks. Even if a first-cycle atlantis *could* look like this, the combination 
of very late juvenile plumage, seemingly anomalous aspects of structure and 
plumage, and extreme rarity in the location you photographed it compare quite 
unfavourably in my view to its chances of being a Lesser Black-backed Gull, 
which is a far better fit on every point bar the oddly dark smooth plumage 
(though for another dark-bodied but pale-headed first-cycle Lesser Black-backed 
Gull, photographed in April so four months later than yours, see Lesser 
Black-backed Gull_4592 28 Apr 2009 Morocco (c) Dominic Mitchell). 

Jizz is something that birders routinely factor into an identification on an 
everyday, almost subconscious, level, even if the tiny differences which 
combine to create it are difficult or impossible to define individually. If it 
essentially looks like a juvenile Lesser Black-backed Gull and 'feels' like 
one, it probably is one and you'd have to have a pretty good reason to call it 
something else. One thing I do not think is the case is that your bird is "in 
theory ... a standard textbook atlantis YLG", as you state. A look at 
first-cycle Azores birds in my Flicker set (the correct URL for which is 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/sets/72157619528301438/) and 
other resources such as Gull-Research.org 
(http://gull-research.org/atlantis/1cyaugust.html) will show what "standard" 
autumn birds look like, and they are quite different in several key respects. 
Of course, not all 1cy atlantis are easy and I have struggled with a few odd 
individuals, but without repeating all the reasons again I do think your bird 
is a better fit for Lesser Black-backed Gull. Best wishes 


Dominic Mitchell 
----------------------------------------------------------------Managing Editor 
| Birdwatch and BirdGuidesBlog: www.birdingetc.com | Twitter:  AT birdingetc 
Facebook | Bird tours: Azores and more 

 

     From: Luis Gordinho 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2015, 22:53
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
   
Hi Dominic,nice to read from you,Sorry fortaking so long to give you some 
change for the 50 (euro) cents!I must sayyou and other European members of 
ID-Frontiers list were quite the gentlemanfor not commenting on my “European 
vs North American birder friendlinessprovocation”. To be fair, the stats have 
changed since my last message (thisrequest for ID help is also running on 
Facebook Group “European Gulls”), checkthem out:ID-FrontiersArchives: 
http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html(992members, comments by 7 
members, 0.71%)https://www.facebook.com/groups/europeangulls(913members, 
comments by 8 members, 0.88%) But back tomy gull, your experience with atlantis 
YLG is very welcome, as are the manyexcellent photos of this taxon in your 
Flickr photostream: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchellIn fact, Ihad 
already mentioned you implicitly as one of the “English top birders in 
theAzores (http://birdingazores.com/?page=xlist&s=0)”However, mygull turned 
out to be quite controversial; with some well known birdersdefending it’s a 
dark LBBG (my initial ID) and other equally famous groupbetting on atlantis 
YLG. Check it out:AtlanticYellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis): 
Frédéric Jiguet, Martin Reid,Norman van Swelm, etc.Dark LesserBlack-backed 
Gull - graellsii or intermedius: Killian Mullarney, Peter Alfrey, 
DominicMitchell, Alvaro Jaramillo, Jan Jörgensen, Lou Bertalan (?), 
etc.Theselection is a little biased towards LBBG, but there is an additional 
“fact”that may somehow balance things: having seen the bird in the field, I 
wish tostring the ID in order to make the record as interesting as possible!!! 
J I know that stringing is taboo inmany countries where birders will never call 
themselves stringers, not even asa joke. I think the rationale in that is 
“For Caesar’s wife, it’s not enough tobe serious, she must also look 
serious” (the Portuguese version of“Caesar's wife must be above 
suspicion”). Since I’m not Caesar’s wife, and noteven a woman who is 
married, whenever I mention stringing, please do assume I’mjoking!So, 
moreseriously, Martin Reid already played an excellent Devil’s Advocate 
trying toshow that it’s very hard to demonstrate that this is not an atlantis 
YLG. I’lltry to go further along that road by (1) opposing previous points 
that supposedlywould eliminate atlantis YLG and (2) running by you van 
Duivendijk’s points forpositive ID of atlantis YLG. 

- Points presented previously that supposedlywould eliminate atlantis YLG 
include a) structure, b) moult and c) plumage. My counterargumentsare as 
follows: 


- How reliably can we separate a bigmale LBBG from a small female atlantis YLG 
on structure? 

- Out of range birds are known todisplay unusual moult patterns. As an example 
in gulls, I mention the Caspiangulls present in Continental Portugal in January 
2015. This bird was in a typicalstage of moult (only mantle & scaps were 2 nd 
gen): https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650315883846but this 
other bird was quite advanced (2 nd gen tertials and innerupperwing coverts as 
well): https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157647753684393; 

- In my view Martin Reid already didan excellent job showing tertials, 
scapulars and coverts have a pattern largelycompatible with atlantis YLG, so 
I’ll try to deal with what Dominic called “irregular,patchy 'charcoal' 
streaking tainting significant areas of the plumage,especially the face and 
underparts. They look scraggy and dishevelled, far fromthe near-immaculate 
appearance of this bird” and Killian described as “'swarthy',somewhat 
grizzled plumage texture”. Can you see that on this bird: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650463248089(please imagine 
the neck was not bent, thereby hiding the only irregular/patchy/ swarthy/ 
grizzled patch)? 

2) Now forthe points that van Duivendijk (2010) lists for positive ID of 
atlantis YLG:“Allplumages: shorter tarsus, larger feet, heavier bill and 
broader wings thanmichahellis.”The birdstibiae look short in every picture of 
the standing bird and feet look quite largeon this photo: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/15871927494The bill is not very heavy 
but, as mentioned before, it could perhaps be heavyenough for a small female 
atlantis YLG. Wing broadness looks quite striking onthis photo: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16308545387not at all the slender wings 
of 1cy LBBG illustrated in pp. 191 and 184 ofCollins BG.“Juvenile -1st-w: 
very dark upperparts (pale notching restricted) andunderparts can recall 
American Herring Gull”Check andcheck, but not diagnostic.“Dark frontside of 
tarsus, often retained to 2cy”Present but,as mentioned in previous posts, 
does not eliminate 1cy LBBG.“Flight allplumages: Broad wings, especially 
arm”Yep. Seeabove.“Flight Juvenile- 1st-w: Broader dark terminal tail-band 
than michahellis (tail anduppertail covert pattern strongly resembles 
LBBG)Checks, butnot diagnostic“Innerprimaries hardly any paler (upperwing 
nearly as LBBG)”Checks, butnot diagnostic“very darkgreater coverts creating 
2nd dark band (in michahellis usually lessdistinct)”Again thislooks more 
conspicuous in https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16308545387than in 1cy 
LBBG illustrated in pp. 191 and 184 of Collins BG.So, intheory, to me this 
could be a standard textbook atlantis YLG
 I guess mynext steps will be (1) 
posting a request for ID help in GRO forum, (2) asking PeterRock for his 
opinion (he as handled quite a few juvenile LBBGs over the years –quite a few 
thousands, I mean!- so maybe has records of such dark birds) and(3) trying to 
obtain the photos of dark LBBG from Mike or Killian.Also, Ilook forward for any 
extra comments from you guys!Cheers andmany thanks in advance, LuĂ­s G 

From: Dominic Mitchell 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 19:14
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
----- Original Message ----- From: norman deans van swelm To: 
BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU Sent: Friday, February 13, 2015 12:19 AMSubject: Fw: 
[BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? 

Dear Luis & others,Here are a number of links that may interest you. Apart from 
my Califonean Gulls there was an adult in N.Norway during several winters, alas 
I lost the link. Do not despair Luis the Atlantic coasts of Portugal and Spain 
will sooner or later bring you your California Gull.All the best, Norman - 
photo no 42 on p.7 illustrates the difference in size between a male 
W.Mediterranean Yellow-legged Gull L.michahellis camarquensis and a female 
Lesser Black-backed Gull see here:     
http://radioactiverobins.com/archive/identification%20yelllegggulls/id-yellleggguls-artkl-foto's/07-the%20id%20of%20the%20yell-leggd%20gulls%20-%20port%20gull%20.htm 

 See for size difference between W.Mediterranean Yellow-legged Gull 
L.m.camarquensis and Portugese Atlantic Gull  L.atlantis berlengaensis, scroll 
down here:      
http://radioactiverobins.com/archive/gulls/atlanticgulls/atlanticyellow-leggedgulls1.htm  for 
Mediterranean Yellow-legged Gulls see here:    
http://radioactiverobins.com/archive/gulls/indexyellow-leggedgulls.htm   to 
view some references concerning the present taxonomic status of large gulls see 
here and scroll down:     
http://radioactiverobins.com/archive/gulls/dutchherringgulls/dutchherringgull.htm   to 
see my view on Yellow-legged Gulls see here:    
http://radioactiverobins.com/archive/identification%20yelllegggulls/id-yellleggguls-artkl-foto's/01-the%20id%20of%20the%20yellow-legged%20gulls%20-%20intro.htm   
  Luis Gordinho wrote: > Dear Alvaro,Floyd, Norman, Suzanne, Martin & 
Steve,Many thanksto all six for your comments.I’m a membersince 2009 and I 
only did four or five posts, so such warm (re-)welcome was somehow surprising 
(but very appreciated!). It is sad, but fair, to say that American Birders are 
much friendlier than European ones! More in detail
Alvaro, Floyd,Norman, 
Suzanne & Steve: thanks for helping me to completely exclude  California G. 
Obviously my desire to score big and my lack of experience with California G 
got the best of me!   http://www.tertial.us/gulls/gulls.htm     looks 
like a great resource Steve! Norman:“There have been several California Gulls 
in Europe
”You mean claims or records? Are there any records accepted by 
rarities committees? In particular, apart from your two claims/records from The 
Netherlands (1-1stsummer + 1ad), do you know if there are any others?“Larus 
atlantis races as these are very common in Portugal”I got scared at first 
when I read this sentence (since atlantis is a rarity in Continental Portugal) 
but then I realized that you use Larus atlantis for what most “taxonomic 
authorities”* call Larus michahellis (which is indeed common inContinental 
Portugal).I read some of the text in the 3rd link you provide, so now I realize 
you use “your own” taxonomy. And, IMO, you’re more than welcome to do it, 
of course.(*please  note that I’m for the authority of arguments and against 
the argument of authority so, when I say “taxonomic authorities”, I mean 
taxonomic committees that use valid arguments to elect, standardize and publish 
avian taxonomy inpeer-reviewed journals)Your photos of Azorean Atlantic Gull 
from The Netherlands are very nice and useful Norman.And so are the Pep Arcos + 
Peter Alfrey photos you present Martin. Norman & Martin:Thanks for adding more 
good arguments to the “atlantis theory” initially proposed by 
FrédéricJiguet. It is paradigmatic that I would be fooled by a pitfall that 
I’ve tried warning North American Birders of in my 2009 Birding article (cf. 
p. 44):     http://www.aba.org/birding/v41n1p38.pdfAlsosomehow 
  paradigmatic is a Portuguese birder being helped by a French birder to ID 
an Azorean gull (The Azores are Portuguese territory, even if located 860 miles 
away from Continental Portugal in a different biogeographic region). This is a 
weaker paradigm though, since top birders in the Azores are Swedish andEnglish 
   http://birdingazores.com/?page=xlist&s=0)and   Fred has been to the 
Azores more times than me!Until more evidence or better arguments came up, 
I’ll call this bird an AtlanticYellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis 
atlantis).Cheers,thanks again and keep up the good and friendly birding!LuĂ­s 
G  Norman wrote: > There have been several California Gulls in Europe but 
yours is not one of 

them. your bird is more likely one of the Larus atlantis races as these are 
very common in Portugal, see links below:



  
http://radioactiverobins.com/archive/smallgulls/california%20gull%20larus%20californicus/california%20gull%20larus%20californicus.htm 





  
http://radioactiverobins.com/archive/gulls/atlanticgulls/atlanticyellow-leggedgulls1.htm 





  
http://radioactiverobins.com/archive/identification%20yelllegggulls/id-yellleggguls-artkl-foto's/07-the%20id%20of%20the%20yell-leggd%20gulls%20-%20port%20gull%20.htm 



some Atlantic Gulls (f.i. nominate atlantis and L.a.berlengaensis) have 
rather short tarsi and are smaller than Lesser Black-backs.
Cheers, Norman   From: Steve Hampton 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 5:08
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
   
The dark upper tail/banded under tail is actually a fairly common feature
with many 1st cycle gulls. In California, where Western and Calif Gulls
predominate along the coast, both look mostly dark tailed from above. From
below, though, Calif Gull shows a thick dark band with pale bases at the
corners (though usually patterned dark and light-- but much more light from
below).

As for the subject bird, I agree with Alvaro's comments. Calif Gulls can
look superficially like this (but with a darker tail) in July-Aug when
fresh off the nest. By fall and winter they look totally different. Now
they look like Figures 13, 14, and 15 here:
http://www.tertial.us/gulls/cali1.htm

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Reid Martin  wrote:

> Actually Suzanne, There is a 1st year gull tail white half of the
> underside and almost all black on the upper side - when held almost
> closed:- Azorean Yellow-legged Gull.
>
> This tail pattern can be found in Azorean Gull because of their propensity
> for having the inner webs of the outer Rs almost unmarked white (basal to
> the dark band) while having far less white on the outer webs of these Rs.
> When the tail is held almost closed, as on the pics of the Portuguese bird,
> there is very little white visible even though from below it looks
> white-based.
>
> Have a look at these Azorean Gulls - and also note the variation in
> rump/utc pattern, with some quite densely-marked:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap10.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap11.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap12.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap13.html
>
> -and on this page look at the tail of the bird just above the final two
> pics of standing birds:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap06.html
>
> Regards,Martin
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
> On Feb 11, 2015, at Feb 11, 9:34 PM, Suzanne Sullivan wrote:
>
> > Luis,
> > I agree also not a California gull. One thing maybe safe to say, this
> gull
> > is very young. It looks like it just hopped off the nest, it is so fresh,
> > only a couple of new scaps. The tail is just bizarre. I don’t think 
I’ve 

> > ever seen a 1st year gull tail white half of the under side and almost
> all
> > black on the upper side. I think this gull may have pigment issues. My
> > guess is it is a Northern Type Herring Gull with some pigment issues,
> some
> > can be very dark. Or a Thayer’s gull with pigment issues. The chest
> looks
> > velvety. I can see HERG and Thayer’s in there but also LBBG in the solid
> > coverts. Maybe a Thayers X LBBG hybrid? Very cool.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Luis Gordinho 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album
> >> below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also
> have
> >> a look at the captions)
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650331075457  For
> those
> >> of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story
On the 14thof
> >> December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13
> >> photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria
> >> beach,Almada (SetĂșbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed
> >> mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen
> >> (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What
> >> stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the
> >> plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks,
> more
> >> evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird
> seamed
> >> to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide,
> 2.nd
> >> Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as
> >> American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever
> >> uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it
> had
> >> no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely 
excluding the 

> >> remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made
> a
> >> mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went
> by
> >> and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek
> >> Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on
> >> January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while
> >> fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several
> points
> >> seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the 
inner 

> >> “hands” in particular looks fatal but
In addition, I thinkthe bird 
does 

> >> have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
> >> - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
> >> - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
> >> - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear
> >> coverts for such adark bird.
> >> So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G
> would
> >> be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)
 (*
> >>
> 
http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro 

> >> Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and
> >> axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and
> >> undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro
> >> LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by
> >> December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail
> feathers
> >> visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in
> >> juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d
> >> still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird
> >> (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos
> of
> >> equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here
> >> http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg1cy/lbbg1cynovdec.htmlAlso, Frédéric
> >> Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis)
> >> via Flickrjust now:
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16468475306Thanks Fred!Any
> ideas?
> >> Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, LuĂ­s G
> >>
> >> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >>

> > Suzanne M. Sullivan
> > Wilmington, MA
> > swampy435 AT gmail.com
> >
> > Be the Voice of the River
> > http://www.ipswichriver.org
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Black Tern - underwing color and winter head patterns
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 21:27:12 -0500
Although this post is directly tied to recent discussion on posted tern  
photos (BLTE or LETE ID query) and arguments posted there I want to express 
some  more thoughts about drawings used in published articles illustrating 
differences  between Black and White-winged Tern head pattern in winter 
plumages and  white-gray problem of BLTE underwings in photographs.
 
Discussion about BLTE vs. LETE ID seems to be divided between two camps and 
 as it was based on two rather poor photographs that show not many 
important details and some details were lost in blown areas. Frankly, even that 
I 

did not  change nothing in my opinion I see no important purpose to argue any 
further as  both species are common and  neither ID would bring something  
exiting.  I enjoyed reading all arguments. 
 
Here I want to show a few photographs related to couple of traits discussed 
 before that can either misleading or are poorly documented.  
 

Winter head pattern in Black Terns, both in guides and papers are shown  
with dark crown. The bird guides cannot show all possible plumage patterns in  
all species (limited space) but like in case of Black Tern this limitation 
can  be confusing especially in winter. On the other hand data about many 
wintering  terns (BLTE included) seems to be very limited and it seems that 
often only  traits of one subspecies (e.g.,  C. n. niger) are used as 
representative; in case of BLTE of both subspecies ( niger and surinamensis). I 

included in  posted composite a couple of drawings from two latest articles 
that were written  on identification of winter plumages of three marsh tern 
species (Black,  White-winged and Whiskered Terns):  Alstrom (1989) and 
Williamson (1960). As we can see Black Tern in winter plumage, in both 
articles, 

is illustrated  with dark crown that should be distinctly different from 
other two species that  sports much paler crowns – trait to be used during 
identification. Perhaps this  is true with C. n. niger but definitely not with 
surinamensis – I included a few  examples that clearly (IMHO) show 
surinamensis with very pale crown in basic plumage. In composite photographs 
number 1, 

2 and 3; and as well still molting  individual in photo number 4.
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/159201539/original
 
In the same composite I decided to include a couple more photos that will  
enhance illustration of BLTE underwing color and how it shows in photos,  
dependents on light and wing angle toward the light source.
 
Many important handbooks/guides show very poor collection of BLTE  
illustrations. For example del Hoyo has only one BLTE color drawing, in 
breeding 

plumage and only in resting pose (none on the wing). Underwing is usually 
shown as gray that is contrasting with white body in winter plumage and as an 

important ID trait; this trait was used in BLTE vs. LETE discussion.  Gray  
underwing can easy be noticed in photo number 2 and 4. It can look much 
darker  (not illustrated in composite). Perhaps Sibley illustrates this trait 
well in  drawings on page 234 (surinamensis).  On the other hand, 
interestingly, in Olsen and Larsson surinamensis summer underwing (page 152 
drawing #7) 

is shown  very pale that seems to be paler compare to niger (page 152 
drawing #6). Although here most of taken surinamensis photographs show rather 

dark underwings  (not illustrated) in some cases, depends on lighting, 
underwings can look pale (number 3 in composite). And of course we have cases 
pf 

not ideal exposure  and/or harsh lighting that can produce photographs in 
which underwing looks  white (number 6 in composite).  BTW I usually do not 
keep these kind of  photos (it is also not sharp) but here I caught a moment 
of upside down position  during air maneuvers – something I am interested 
just to document, especially in  tern species.
 
In this post I wanted to stress that surinamensis crown in winter plumage  
can be very pale and can be similar to White-winged head pattern, something 
not  noted in published books and papers.  As surinamensis population during 
 winter seems to be very poorly studied the head pattern in winter plumage 
needs  more study. Underwing color in photos can be inaccurate and, 
sometimes, cannot  be accurate determinate from single photos. It could be 
interesting to hear opinions about color differences between niger and 
surinamensis 

underwings in  both plumages, basic and alternate. 
 
As I mentioned my weakness for trying to collect birds on the wing in  
upside down position during hunting or flock maneuvers below is a link to just 

updated collection. Perhaps some like to see curious things. Not too many 
for so  many years of trying - 9 species total (raptors during aggressive 
encounters and  courtship are not included – these are easier to get):
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/154207440/original
 
 
 
Cheers,
 
Mark
 
Mark B Bartosik
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Individual bird ID help needed
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 19:56:05 -0600
Hi everyone. Here are two photos of 1st-cycle gulls at Branched Oak Lake,
Lincoln, NE, taken a few days apart. The first one was a good Slaty-backed
candidate. I got flight shots of only the second one... What do you think,
are these photos of the same individual?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157650856180026/

I'm seeing what looks like the same pattern of light and dark feathering on
the back, but could this just be light and shadow? At different angles,
that dark "saddle" seemed to disappear entirely... But it looks real in
these head-on photos...

Noah Arthur, Lincoln, NE/Oakland, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
From: Dominic Mitchell <dominic.mitchell AT YAHOO.CO.UK>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 14:13:31 +0000
Bom dia Luis
Thanks for your 'change' to my 50 cents!
I think we all agree that large gulls are highly variable and complex in 
plumage terms, that there is often overlap (sometimes considerable) across a 
wide range characters and that, in younger stages of 'close' taxa such as 
Lesser Black-backed and atlantis Yellow-legged Gulls (a taxon originally 
described as a subspecies of Lesser Black-back by Dwight in 1922), seemingly 
little is truly diagnostic. So, in the absence of a scoring system for 
characters such as that devised for Caspian Gull by Gibbins et al (2010 in 
British Birds), first-cycle birds like yours generally come down to an 
identification based partly on jizz and probability as well as actual field 
marks. Even if a first-cycle atlantis *could* look like this, the combination 
of very late juvenile plumage, seemingly anomalous aspects of structure and 
plumage, and extreme rarity in the location you photographed it compare quite 
unfavourably in my view to its chances of being a Lesser Black-backed Gull, 
which is a far better fit on every point bar the oddly dark smooth plumage 
(though for another dark-bodied but pale-headed first-cycle Lesser Black-backed 
Gull, photographed in April so four months later than yours, see Lesser 
Black-backed Gull_4592 28 Apr 2009 Morocco (c) Dominic Mitchell).  

Jizz is something that birders routinely factor into an identification on an 
everyday, almost subconscious, level, even if the tiny differences which 
combine to create it are difficult or impossible to define individually. If it 
essentially looks like a juvenile Lesser Black-backed Gull and 'feels' like 
one, it probably is one and you'd have to have a pretty good reason to call it 
something else. One thing I do not think is the case is that your bird is "in 
theory ... a standard textbook atlantis YLG", as you state. A look at 
first-cycle Azores birds in my Flicker set (the correct URL for which 
is https://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/sets/72157619528301438/) and 
other resources such as Gull-Research.org 
(http://gull-research.org/atlantis/1cyaugust.html) will show what "standard" 
autumn birds look like, and they are quite different in several key respects. 
Of course, not all 1cy atlantis are easy and I have struggled with a few odd 
individuals, but without repeating all the reasons again I do think your bird 
is a better fit for Lesser Black-backed Gull.  Best wishes 


Dominic Mitchell 
----------------------------------------------------------------Managing Editor 
| Birdwatch and BirdGuidesBlog: www.birdingetc.com | 
Twitter:  AT birdingetc Facebook | Bird tours: Azores and more 

 

     From: Luis Gordinho 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Tuesday, 17 February 2015, 22:53
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
   
Hi Dominic,nice to read from you,Sorry fortaking so long to give you some 
change for the 50 (euro) cents!I must sayyou and other European members of 
ID-Frontiers list were quite the gentlemanfor not commenting on my “European 
vs North American birder friendlinessprovocation”. To be fair, the stats have 
changed since my last message (thisrequest for ID help is also running on 
Facebook Group “European Gulls”), checkthem out:ID-FrontiersArchives: 
http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html(992members, comments by 7 
members, 0.71%)https://www.facebook.com/groups/europeangulls(913members, 
comments by 8 members, 0.88%) But back tomy gull, your experience with 
atlantis YLG is very welcome, as are the manyexcellent photos of this taxon in 
your Flickr photostream: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchellIn fact, 
Ihad already mentioned you implicitly as one of the “English top birders in 
theAzores (http://birdingazores.com/?page=xlist&s=0)”However, mygull turned 
out to be quite controversial; with some well known birdersdefending it’s a 
dark LBBG (my initial ID) and other equally famous groupbetting on atlantis 
YLG. Check it out:AtlanticYellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis): 
Frédéric Jiguet, Martin Reid,Norman van Swelm, etc.Dark LesserBlack-backed 
Gull - graellsii or intermedius: Killian Mullarney, Peter Alfrey, 
DominicMitchell, Alvaro Jaramillo, Jan Jörgensen, Lou Bertalan (?), 
etc.Theselection is a little biased towards LBBG, but there is an additional 
“fact”that may somehow balance things: having seen the bird in the field, I 
wish tostring the ID in order to make the record as interesting as possible!!! 
J I know that stringing is taboo inmany countries where birders will never call 
themselves stringers, not even asa joke. I think the rationale in that is 
“For Caesar’s wife, it’s not enough tobe serious, she must also look 
serious” (the Portuguese version of“Caesar's wife must be above 
suspicion”). Since I’m not Caesar’s wife, and noteven a woman who is 
married, whenever I mention stringing, please do assume I’mjoking!So, 
moreseriously, Martin Reid already played an excellent Devil’s Advocate 
trying toshow that it’s very hard to demonstrate that this is not an atlantis 
YLG. I’lltry to go further along that road by (1) opposing previous points 
that supposedlywould eliminate atlantis YLG and (2) running by you van 
Duivendijk’s points forpositive ID of atlantis YLG.  

  - Points presented previously that supposedlywould eliminate atlantis YLG 
include a) structure, b) moult and c) plumage. My counterargumentsare as 
follows: 

  
  - How reliably can we separate a bigmale LBBG from a small female atlantis 
YLG on structure? 

  - Out of range birds are known todisplay unusual moult patterns. As an 
example in gulls, I mention the Caspiangulls present in Continental Portugal in 
January 2015. This bird was in a typicalstage of moult (only mantle & scaps 
were 2  nd gen): 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650315883846but this other 
bird was quite advanced (2  nd gen tertials and innerupperwing coverts as 
well): https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157647753684393; 

  - In my view Martin Reid already didan excellent job showing tertials, 
scapulars and coverts have a pattern largelycompatible with atlantis YLG, so 
I’ll try to deal with what Dominic called “irregular,patchy 'charcoal' 
streaking tainting significant areas of the plumage,especially the face and 
underparts. They look scraggy and dishevelled, far fromthe near-immaculate 
appearance of this bird” and Killian described as “'swarthy',somewhat 
grizzled plumage texture”. Can you see that on this bird: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650463248089(please imagine 
the neck was not bent, thereby hiding the only irregular/patchy/ swarthy/ 
grizzled patch)? 

 2) Now forthe points that van Duivendijk (2010) lists for positive ID of 
atlantis YLG:“Allplumages: shorter tarsus, larger feet, heavier bill and 
broader wings thanmichahellis.”The birdstibiae look short in every picture of 
the standing bird and feet look quite largeon this photo: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/15871927494The bill is not very heavy 
but, as mentioned before, it could perhaps be heavyenough for a small female 
atlantis YLG. Wing broadness looks quite striking onthis photo: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16308545387not at all the slender wings 
of 1cy LBBG illustrated in pp. 191 and 184 ofCollins BG.“Juvenile -1st-w: 
very dark upperparts (pale notching restricted) andunderparts can recall 
American Herring Gull”Check andcheck, but not diagnostic.“Dark frontside of 
tarsus, often retained to 2cy”Present but,as mentioned in previous posts, 
does not eliminate 1cy LBBG.“Flight allplumages: Broad wings, especially 
arm”Yep. Seeabove.“Flight Juvenile- 1st-w: Broader dark terminal tail-band 
than michahellis (tail anduppertail covert pattern strongly resembles 
LBBG)Checks, butnot diagnostic“Innerprimaries hardly any paler (upperwing 
nearly as LBBG)”Checks, butnot diagnostic“very darkgreater coverts creating 
2nd dark band (in michahellis usually lessdistinct)”Again thislooks more 
conspicuous in https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16308545387than in 1cy 
LBBG illustrated in pp. 191 and 184 of Collins BG.So, intheory, to me this 
could be a standard textbook atlantis YLG
 I guess mynext steps will be (1) 
posting a request for ID help in GRO forum, (2) asking PeterRock for his 
opinion (he as handled quite a few juvenile LBBGs over the years –quite a few 
thousands, I mean!- so maybe has records of such dark birds) and(3) trying to 
obtain the photos of dark LBBG from Mike or Killian.Also, Ilook forward for any 
extra comments from you guys!Cheers andmany thanks in advance, LuĂ­s G 

       From: Dominic Mitchell 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 19:14
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
  
Hi Luis and all
I came late to this thread but nonetheless would like to add my 50 (euro) 
cents. 

In my view your bird is, as Alvaro and others have already stated, a Lesser 
Black-backed Gull. Without repeating the reasons given by others, its 
relatively small size (for a large gull) and placid demeanour, as well as 
structure, head and bill profile, and certain plumage features all point in 
combination to Lesser Black-backed Gull. I see nothing really problematic with 
tail pattern, given the variation shown by this species. It is not an 'Azores 
Gull' (Larus michahellis atlantis) in my opinion, this taxon rarely retaining 
juvenile plumage beyond September and apparently only exceptionally so beyond 
October (only a handful out of the thousands of 1cy Azores Gulls I've seen over 
the last nine Octobers have appeared obviously juvenile). In any case, young 
Azores Gulls have a quite different character, generally looking more brutish 
and strongly built, and plumage-wise having irregular, patchy 'charcoal' 
streaking tainting significant areas of the plumage, especially the face and 
underparts. They look scraggy and dishevelled, far from the near-immaculate 
appearance of this bird, which while perhaps late in moult terms and darker 
than average, otherwise shows some good Lesser Black-back features such as 
largely dark greater coverts and no pale 'window' on the inner primaries. 

As for California Gull, there are no accepted records on the European side of 
the Atlantic and, as far as I'm aware, no hard evidence to support any 
unsubmitted claims you may have heard about, from The Netherlands or anywhere 
else in the Western Palearctic. If anyone has photos or video to the contrary, 
I'd love to see them. 

I hope this helps,
Dominic Mitchell 
----------------------------------------------------------------Managing Editor 
| Birdwatch and BirdGuidesBlog: www.birdingetc.com | 
Twitter:  AT birdingetc Facebook | Bird tours: Azores and more 

      From: Luis Gordinho 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 18:06
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
  
Dear Alvaro,Floyd, Norman, Suzanne, Martin & Steve,Many thanksto all six for 
your comments.I’m a membersince 2009 and I only did four or five posts, so 
such warm (re-)welcome wassomehow surprising (but very appreciated!). It is 
sad, but fair, to say that AmericanBirders are much friendlier than European 
ones! More indetail
Alvaro, Floyd,Norman, Suzanne & Steve: thanks for 
helping me to completely excludeCalifornia G. Obviously my desire to score big 
and my lack of experience withCalifornia G got the best of 
me!http://www.tertial.us/gulls/gulls.htmlooks like a great resource 
Steve! Norman:“There havebeen several California Gulls in Europe
”You 
meanclaims or records? Are there any records accepted by rarities 
committees?Inparticular, apart from your two claims/records from The 
Netherlands (1-1stsummer + 1ad), do you know if there are any 
others?“Larusatlantis races as these are very common in Portugal”I 
gotscared at first when I read this sentence (since atlantis is a rarity 
inContinental Portugal) but then I realized that you use Larus atlantis for 
whatmost “taxonomic authorities”* call Larus michahellis (which is indeed 
common inContinental Portugal).I read someof the text in the 3rd link you 
provide, so now I realize you use “yourown” taxonomy. And, IMO, you’re 
more than welcome to do it, of course.(*pleasenote that I’m for the authority 
of arguments and against the argument ofauthority so, when I say “taxonomic 
authorities”, I mean taxonomic committeesthat use valid arguments to elect, 
standardize and publish avian taxonomy inpeer-reviewed journals)Your photosof 
Azorean Atlantic Gull from The Netherlands are very nice and useful Norman.And 
so are the Pep Arcos + Peter Alfrey photos you present Martin. Norman& 
Martin:Thanks foradding more good arguments to the “atlantis theory” 
initially proposed by FrédéricJiguet. It is paradigmatic that I would be 
fooled by a pitfall that I’ve triedwarning North American Birders of in my 
2009 Birding article (cf. p. 44): 
http://www.aba.org/birding/v41n1p38.pdfAlsosomehow paradigmatic is a Portuguese 
birder being helped by a French birder toID an Azorean gull (The Azores are 
Portuguese territory, even if located 860miles away from Continental Portugal 
in a different biogeographic region). Thisis a weaker paradigm though, since 
top birders in the Azores are Swedish andEnglish 
(http://birdingazores.com/?page=xlist&s=0)and Fred has been to the Azores more 
times than me!Until moreevidence or better arguments came up, I’ll call this 
bird an AtlanticYellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis).Cheers,thanks 
again and keep up the good and friendly birding!LuĂ­s G 

       From: Steve Hampton 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 5:08
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
  
The dark upper tail/banded under tail is actually a fairly common feature
with many 1st cycle gulls.  In California, where Western and Calif Gulls
predominate along the coast, both look mostly dark tailed from above.  From
below, though, Calif Gull shows a thick dark band with pale bases at the
corners (though usually patterned dark and light-- but much more light from
below).

As for the subject bird, I agree with Alvaro's comments.  Calif Gulls can
look superficially like this (but with a darker tail) in July-Aug when
fresh off the nest.  By fall and winter they look totally different.  Now
they look like Figures 13, 14, and 15 here:
http://www.tertial.us/gulls/cali1.htm





On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Reid Martin  wrote:

> Actually Suzanne, There is a 1st year gull tail white half of the
> underside and almost all black on the upper side - when held almost
> closed:- Azorean Yellow-legged Gull.
>
> This tail pattern can be found in Azorean Gull because of their propensity
> for having the inner webs of the outer Rs almost unmarked white (basal to
> the dark band) while having far less white on the outer webs of these Rs.
> When the tail is held almost closed, as on the pics of the Portuguese bird,
> there is very little white visible even though from below it looks
> white-based.
>
> Have a look at these Azorean Gulls - and also note the variation in
> rump/utc pattern, with some quite densely-marked:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap10.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap11.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap12.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap13.html
>
> -and on this page look at the tail of the bird just above the final two
> pics of standing birds:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap06.html
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2015, at Feb 11, 9:34 PM, Suzanne Sullivan wrote:
>
> > Luis,
> > I agree also not a California gull. One thing maybe  safe to say, this
> gull
> > is very young. It looks like it just hopped off the nest, it is so fresh,
> > only a couple of new scaps. The tail is just bizarre. I don’t think 
I’ve 

> > ever seen a 1st year gull tail white half of the under side and almost
> all
> > black on the upper side. I think this gull may have pigment issues. My
> > guess is it is a Northern Type Herring Gull with some pigment issues,
> some
> > can be very dark.  Or a Thayer’s gull with pigment issues. The chest
> looks
> > velvety.  I can see HERG and Thayer’s in there but also LBBG in the 
solid 

> > coverts. Maybe a Thayers X LBBG hybrid? Very cool.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Luis Gordinho 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album
> >> below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also
> have
> >> a look at the captions)
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650331075457  For
> those
> >> of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story
On the 14thof
> >> December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13
> >> photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria
> >> beach,Almada (SetĂșbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed
> >> mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen
> >> (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What
> >> stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the
> >> plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks,
> more
> >> evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird
> seamed
> >> to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide,
> 2.nd
> >> Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as
> >> American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever
> >> uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it
> had
> >> no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely 
excluding the 

> >> remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made
> a
> >> mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went
> by
> >> and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek
> >> Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on
> >> January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while
> >> fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several
> points
> >> seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the 
inner 

> >> “hands” in particular looks fatal but
In addition, I thinkthe bird 
does 

> >> have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
> >>  - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
> >>  - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
> >>  - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear
> >> coverts for such adark bird.
> >> So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G
> would
> >> be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)
 (*
> >>
> 
http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro 

> >> Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and
> >> axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and
> >> undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro
> >> LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by
> >> December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail
> feathers
> >> visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in
> >> juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d
> >> still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird
> >> (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos
> of
> >> equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here
> >> http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg1cy/lbbg1cynovdec.htmlAlso, Frédéric
> >> Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis)
> >> via Flickrjust now:
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16468475306Thanks Fred!Any
> ideas?
> >> Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, LuĂ­s G
> >>
> >> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Suzanne M. Sullivan
> > Wilmington, MA
> > swampy435 AT gmail.com
> >
> > Be the Voice of the River
> > http://www.ipswichriver.org
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA









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Subject: Re: Chlidonias tern query
From: Hans Larsson <longicaudus AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 00:17:15 +0100
Hi all,

I donÂŽt think I can add any further arguments to my case, I would just
repeat myself. But I would suppose it is far more likely with a Least Tern
from a late brood in difficult light conditions, than a Black Tern with odd
head pattern, odd shape and that lacks any sign of dark secondaries and
inner primaries.

Regards,

Hans

2015-02-18 23:25 GMT+01:00 Mike O'Keeffe :

> Hi,
>
> A really interesting debate over what are let's face it a couple of really
> poor images.  I'm on the Least Tern side of the fence personally, albeit it
> somewhat reluctantly.
>
> - For me structurally this looks more like a Least/Little Tern than a
> Chlidonias sp.  The wings seem too long, narrow and tapered for a
> Chlidonias.
> - The facial and crown pattern seem to fit juvenile/1st winter Least Tern
> very well but not so much a Chlidonias sp.
> - Like Hans I am also drawn to what looks like definitive white tips to
> each of the inner primaries and outer secondaries - best seen by darkening
> image "9919392633_491d26d4a1_o" and looking at the upper surface of the far
> wing.  Note I wouldn't be inclined to trust as much the impression of this
> feature given by the backlit secondaries (near wing of both images).  And,
> I wouldn’t be too concerned by the apparent lack of the feature in the more
> backlit of the two images - that is a bizarrely lit image if ever I saw one.
> - There appears to be an impression of contrastingly pale outer greater
> coverts also on image "9919392633_491d26d4a1_o" - another feature in
> support of Least Tern.  Though this could be due to glare.
>
> As for the seemingly brownish smudge on the breast side.  Yes it seems
> anomalous for Least in September.  Could it just be that - simply an
> anomaly, perhaps staining or an injury?  There seems to be a peculiar bump
> between the wing and this feature in image "9919372136_f687b79cb8_o"
> suggesting there may be some feather displacement involved.
>
> On balance I see more in support of a Least than a Chlidonias sp.
>
> That’s enough staring at tea leaves for me.
>
> Regards
>
> Mike O'Keeffe
> Ireland
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik
> Sent: 18 February 2015 18:36
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Chlidonias tern query
>
> In a message dated 2/18/2015 8:38:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> longicaudus AT GMAIL.COM writes:
>
> The  light also enhances the breast patch, that Least Tern do show,
> although in  normal conditions it is more discretely coloured:
> All,
>
> First here is an composite photo illustrating plumages of Least Tern
> during first year of its life.
>
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/151594623/original
>
> As we can see what we can call breast patch is very pale buff in  color
> and it is only shown for a very short period of time and diminishes very
> quickly. What is more important in this case this pale buff patch
> disappears completely long before back and upperwing  feathers either start
> to molt or wear out loosing its scaly appearance.
>
> BTW this pale buff patch will be first to be blown in overexposed  photos.
> In Jason’s  posted photos (rather overexposed) the breast patch is  dark,
> very well defined and narrow but long; nothing one would expect from
> rather poorly defined, pale buff and wider patch seen for short time in
> juvenile LETE. In his photos back and upperwing feathers show no even a
> hint of scaly appearance something that will be noticeable even in poorly
> exposed photo that  shows rather even coloration in not blown areas of the
> upper parts.
> Migrating HY  LETEs can reach Texas shore when less than two months old
> (banded) and might, at  that time, just start to molt back and upperwing.
> Patch is practically  gone.
>
> Jason - thanks for posting other people private arguments - at this
> moment I see nothing what would make me back off from anything I wrote
> before.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

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Subject: Re: Chlidonias tern query
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 22:25:26 +0000
Hi,

A really interesting debate over what are let's face it a couple of really poor 
images. I'm on the Least Tern side of the fence personally, albeit it somewhat 
reluctantly. 


- For me structurally this looks more like a Least/Little Tern than a 
Chlidonias sp. The wings seem too long, narrow and tapered for a Chlidonias. 

- The facial and crown pattern seem to fit juvenile/1st winter Least Tern very 
well but not so much a Chlidonias sp. 

- Like Hans I am also drawn to what looks like definitive white tips to each of 
the inner primaries and outer secondaries - best seen by darkening image 
"9919392633_491d26d4a1_o" and looking at the upper surface of the far wing. 
Note I wouldn't be inclined to trust as much the impression of this feature 
given by the backlit secondaries (near wing of both images). And, I wouldn’t 
be too concerned by the apparent lack of the feature in the more backlit of the 
two images - that is a bizarrely lit image if ever I saw one. 

- There appears to be an impression of contrastingly pale outer greater coverts 
also on image "9919392633_491d26d4a1_o" - another feature in support of Least 
Tern. Though this could be due to glare. 


As for the seemingly brownish smudge on the breast side. Yes it seems anomalous 
for Least in September. Could it just be that - simply an anomaly, perhaps 
staining or an injury? There seems to be a peculiar bump between the wing and 
this feature in image "9919372136_f687b79cb8_o" suggesting there may be some 
feather displacement involved. 


On balance I see more in support of a Least than a Chlidonias sp.

That’s enough staring at tea leaves for me.  

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik 

Sent: 18 February 2015 18:36
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Chlidonias tern query

In a message dated 2/18/2015 8:38:44 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
longicaudus AT GMAIL.COM writes: 


The light also enhances the breast patch, that Least Tern do show, although in 
normal conditions it is more discretely coloured: 

All,
 
First here is an composite photo illustrating plumages of Least Tern during 
first year of its life. 

 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/151594623/original
 
As we can see what we can call breast patch is very pale buff in color and it 
is only shown for a very short period of time and diminishes very quickly. What 
is more important in this case this pale buff patch disappears completely long 
before back and upperwing feathers either start to molt or wear out loosing its 
scaly appearance. 

 
BTW this pale buff patch will be first to be blown in overexposed  photos. 
In Jason’s posted photos (rather overexposed) the breast patch is dark, very 
well defined and narrow but long; nothing one would expect from rather poorly 
defined, pale buff and wider patch seen for short time in juvenile LETE. In his 
photos back and upperwing feathers show no even a hint of scaly appearance 
something that will be noticeable even in poorly exposed photo that shows 
rather even coloration in not blown areas of the upper parts. 

Migrating HY LETEs can reach Texas shore when less than two months old (banded) 
and might, at that time, just start to molt back and upperwing. Patch is 
practically gone. 

 
Jason - thanks for posting other people private arguments - at this moment I 
see nothing what would make me back off from anything I wrote before. 

 
Cheers,
 
Mark
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Subject: Re: Chlidonias tern query
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 13:35:55 -0500
In a message dated 2/18/2015 8:38:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
longicaudus AT GMAIL.COM writes:

The  light also enhances the breast patch, that Least Tern do show, although
in  normal conditions it is more discretely coloured:
All,
 
First here is an composite photo illustrating plumages of Least Tern  
during first year of its life.
 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/151594623/original
 
As we can see what we can call breast patch is very pale buff in  color and 
it is only shown for a very short period of time and diminishes very  
quickly. What is more important in this case this pale buff patch disappears  
completely long before back and upperwing  feathers either start to molt or  
wear out loosing its scaly appearance. 
 
BTW this pale buff patch will be first to be blown in overexposed  photos. 
In Jason’s  posted photos (rather overexposed) the breast patch is  dark, 
very well defined and narrow but long; nothing one would expect from  rather 
poorly defined, pale buff and wider patch seen for short time in juvenile  
LETE. In his photos back and upperwing feathers show no even a hint of scaly  
appearance something that will be noticeable even in poorly exposed photo 
that  shows rather even coloration in not blown areas of the upper parts. 
Migrating HY LETEs can reach Texas shore when less than two months old (banded) 

and might, at  that time, just start to molt back and upperwing. Patch is 
practically  gone. 
 
Jason - thanks for posting other people private arguments - at this  moment 
I see nothing what would make me back off from anything I wrote before. 
 
Cheers,
 
Mark
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Chlidonias tern query
From: Hans Larsson <longicaudus AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 15:37:00 +0100
Hi all,

The white secondaries and inner primaries, well visible from below as Tony
states, is the key plumage feature to exclude any chlidonias tern. Bear in
mind that the light and photo quality enhances darker and paler shades, so
if there would be a darker trailing edge to the wing it would appear almost
blackish here, as is the case with the leading edge of  the wing.

The light also enhances the breast patch, that Least Tern do show, although
in normal conditions it is more discretely coloured:

http://www.150.parks.ca.gov/pages/150/images/lete%20adult%20and%20juveniles.jpg

http://harrisbrownphotography.com/img/s2/v4/p343721106-3.jpg

http://www.outbackphoto.com/nature/2001/texasbirds/LeastTernJuv.jpg


http://ww.marinascarrphotography.com/core/img/gallery/seabirds/least_tern_juvenile_4065.jpg 



http://nathistoc.bio.uci.edu/birds/charadriiformes/Sterna%20antillarum/Least%20Tern,%20juvenile%20%28Bolsa%20Chica,%207-13-08%29.jpg 



http://www.stevemetildi.com/galleries/173_TTG%20GALLERY%20GULLS%20AND%20TERNS/photos/sm_20050720_Least_Tern_0005.jpg 


Moreover I would expect to see at least some sign of a white ring behind
the eye even in a distant shot, and a more rounded and smooth overall
shape. JasonÂŽs bird shows the typical angular outline and also the narrow
wings I expect from a Least Tern.


With best regards,

Hans

2015-02-17 20:55 GMT+01:00 Tony Leukering :

>  All:
>
> I think that Jason's bird
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/9919372136/in/photostream/
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/9919392633/in/photostream/
>
> is odd in at least a couple of respects.  And having been one of the folks
> that he had originally queried, I thought that I'd lay out my problems with
> the bird's ID.
>
> The upper side of the wings look dark enough in the first picture (the
> upper side to the wings is just too blown out in the second pic to be
> useful) for the bird to be considered a Chlidonias.  However, the under
> side to the wings -- which are not overexposed at all, in fact, are shaded
> -- look far too white for Black Tern in any plumage.  While one might then
> start considering White-winged Tern, that species lacks the bird's shoulder
> bar.  I think that Whiskered Tern is right out.  Additionally at odds with,
> at least, typical American Black Tern (surinamensis), is the minimalness of
> the shoulder bar, which is virtually always considerably thicker and much
> more obvious.
>
> I then considered Least/Little Tern, as the proportions of the bird seemed
> to me to rule out any other tern options.  While the bird looks fairly good
> for a member of Sternula in most respects, neither species that is at all
> likely in the U. S. southeast is supposed to sport a shoulder bar.
>
> So, I'm at an impasse and suggested that Jason cast his net more widely
> for ID opinions.
>
> BTW -- two pictures of a non-alternate-plumaged American Black Tern taken
> recently in Florida can be found on Flickr.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/16435490 AT N00/16208297380
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/16435490 AT N00/16209461609
>
> While the bird certainly sports a fairly white crown (as does Jason's
> bird), the under side to the wings are obviously dark.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
> Tony Leukering
> Largo, FL
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>
> http://aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> All:
>
> I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in
>
> Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern
>
> with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast
>
> peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached
>
> out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American
>
> Black Tern.  I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several
>
> experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion
>
> that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
>
> and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
>
> Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.
>
>
>
> I have only these 2 photos:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
>
>
> Thanks very much for any opinions.
>
> Jason Hoeksema
>
> Oxford, MS
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
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>
>
>
>
>
> All:
>
> I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in
>
> Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern
>
> with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast
>
> peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached
>
> out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American
>
> Black Tern.  I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several
>
> experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion
>
> that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
>
> and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
>
> Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.
>
>
>
> I have only these 2 photos:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
>
>
> Thanks very much for any opinions.
>
> Jason Hoeksema
>
> Oxford, MS
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ABA Blog » #abarare
>
> #ABArare – White-throated Thrush – Texas
> Feb 7, 2015
>  On February 6, 2015, Todd McGrath found an ABA Code 4 White-throated
> Thrush at Estero Llano Grande State Park

>
> #ABArare – Fieldfare – Nova Scotia
> Feb 2, 2015
>  On January 31, Kathleen Spicer discovered an ABA Code 4 Fieldfare
> visiting a fruiting apple tree in her garden

>
> #ABArare – Common Scoter – California
> Feb 1, 2015
>  On January 25, Bill Bouton found and photographed an apparent Common
> Scoter in the Crescent City boat basin in

>
> The TOP 10: Best ABA Area Vagrants of 2014
> Jan 29, 2015
>  By Nate Swick and George Armistead 2013 was an incredible year for
> vagrants, particularly unexpected ones, and a hard

>
> #ABArare – Gray-crowned Yellowthroat – Texas
> Jan 25, 2015
>  A bird walk yesterday morning led by Huck Hutchens at Estero Llano Grande
> State Park in Hidalgo Co, Texas,

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Subject: Re: Chlidonias tern query
From: Jason Hoeksema <hoeksema AT OLEMISS.EDU>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 07:54:16 -0600
Thanks to all who have replied about this tern. It may turn out that the
lighting on these photos is too harsh to make a definitive determination,
but I appreciate the discussion.

Mark: As you requested, I am pasting below the remarks made by one European
expert, who thought this bird looked more like a 'European' Black Tern:

"Anyway, this is a very interesting tern and first off, it certainly isn't
a *surinamensis* American Black Tern. The underwing and flanks look
startlingly white and this appears consistent in various lighting
situations found in the images, plus there is a stark contrast with the
dark breast 'peg' and the flanks which seems to clearly eliminate American
Black Tern.

In the images with which it can be made out the crown looks really rather
pale, perhaps greyish, which isn't usually a feature of 'European' Black
Tern and is more in line with American Black Tern but I am conscious that
the images appear to have been taken in bright sunlight and that a certain
amount of 'bleaching' of the true colour might be occurring here,
particularly as the crown is in direct sunlight. I cannot make out the
colour of the rump (it looks very pale-whitish) but again, the sunlight
might be having a big effect here. I also considered White-winged Black
Tern as I have seen individuals with 'residual' dark breast pegs (there is
one in the Black Tern/White-winged Black Tern article on my website) but
your bird obviously strikes me as a Black Tern (though in a couple of
images it does appear quite 'petite' looking more akin to White-winged
Black Tern?).

So on the face of it the bird appears, from the images available, to be a
'European' Black Tern but that comes with the caveat that more images may
well throw other features into the mix and they may well impact further on
that identification."

Jason



On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Tony Leukering 
wrote:

>  All:
>
> I think that Jason's bird
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/9919372136/in/photostream/
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/9919392633/in/photostream/
>
> is odd in at least a couple of respects.  And having been one of the folks
> that he had originally queried, I thought that I'd lay out my problems with
> the bird's ID.
>
> The upper side of the wings look dark enough in the first picture (the
> upper side to the wings is just too blown out in the second pic to be
> useful) for the bird to be considered a Chlidonias.  However, the under
> side to the wings -- which are not overexposed at all, in fact, are shaded
> -- look far too white for Black Tern in any plumage.  While one might then
> start considering White-winged Tern, that species lacks the bird's shoulder
> bar.  I think that Whiskered Tern is right out.  Additionally at odds with,
> at least, typical American Black Tern (surinamensis), is the minimalness of
> the shoulder bar, which is virtually always considerably thicker and much
> more obvious.
>
> I then considered Least/Little Tern, as the proportions of the bird seemed
> to me to rule out any other tern options.  While the bird looks fairly good
> for a member of Sternula in most respects, neither species that is at all
> likely in the U. S. southeast is supposed to sport a shoulder bar.
>
> So, I'm at an impasse and suggested that Jason cast his net more widely
> for ID opinions.
>
> BTW -- two pictures of a non-alternate-plumaged American Black Tern taken
> recently in Florida can be found on Flickr.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/16435490 AT N00/16208297380
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/16435490 AT N00/16209461609
>
> While the bird certainly sports a fairly white crown (as does Jason's
> bird), the under side to the wings are obviously dark.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
> Tony Leukering
> Largo, FL
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>
> http://aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> All:
>
> I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in
>
> Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern
>
> with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast
>
> peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached
>
> out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American
>
> Black Tern.  I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several
>
> experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion
>
> that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
>
> and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
>
> Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.
>
>
>
> I have only these 2 photos:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
>
>
> Thanks very much for any opinions.
>
> Jason Hoeksema
>
> Oxford, MS
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
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> Jan 25, 2015
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>
>
>
>
>
> All:
>
> I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in
>
> Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern
>
> with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast
>
> peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached
>
> out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American
>
> Black Tern.  I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several
>
> experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion
>
> that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
>
> and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
>
> Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.
>
>
>
> I have only these 2 photos:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
>
>
> Thanks very much for any opinions.
>
> Jason Hoeksema
>
> Oxford, MS
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ABA's FREE guide to
> gear
>
> ABA's FREE guide to
> listing & taxonomy
>
>
>
> ABA's FREE guide to
> conservation & community
>
> ABA's FREE guide to
> travel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ABA Blog » #abarare
>
> #ABArare – White-throated Thrush – Texas
> Feb 7, 2015
>  On February 6, 2015, Todd McGrath found an ABA Code 4 White-throated
> Thrush at Estero Llano Grande State Park

>
> #ABArare – Fieldfare – Nova Scotia
> Feb 2, 2015
>  On January 31, Kathleen Spicer discovered an ABA Code 4 Fieldfare
> visiting a fruiting apple tree in her garden

>
> #ABArare – Common Scoter – California
> Feb 1, 2015
>  On January 25, Bill Bouton found and photographed an apparent Common
> Scoter in the Crescent City boat basin in

>
> The TOP 10: Best ABA Area Vagrants of 2014
> Jan 29, 2015
>  By Nate Swick and George Armistead 2013 was an incredible year for
> vagrants, particularly unexpected ones, and a hard

>
> #ABArare – Gray-crowned Yellowthroat – Texas
> Jan 25, 2015
>  A bird walk yesterday morning led by Huck Hutchens at Estero Llano Grande
> State Park in Hidalgo Co, Texas,

>
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> month...
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>  - See more at:
> 
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>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Dr. Jason D. Hoeksema, Associate Professor
Department of Biology
University of Mississippi
phone: 662-915-1275
lab website 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
From: Luis Gordinho <lgordinho AT YAHOO.CO.UK>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 22:53:06 +0000
Hi Dominic,nice to read from you,Sorry fortaking so long to give you some 
change for the 50 (euro) cents!I must sayyou and other European members of 
ID-Frontiers list were quite the gentlemanfor not commenting on my “European 
vs North American birder friendlinessprovocation”. To be fair, the stats have 
changed since my last message (thisrequest for ID help is also running on 
Facebook Group “European Gulls”), checkthem out:ID-FrontiersArchives: 
http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html(992members, comments by 7 
members, 0.71%)https://www.facebook.com/groups/europeangulls(913members, 
comments by 8 members, 0.88%) But back tomy gull, your experience with 
atlantis YLG is very welcome, as are the manyexcellent photos of this taxon in 
your Flickr photostream: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchellIn fact, 
Ihad already mentioned you implicitly as one of the “English top birders in 
theAzores (http://birdingazores.com/?page=xlist&s=0)”However, mygull turned 
out to be quite controversial; with some well known birdersdefending it’s a 
dark LBBG (my initial ID) and other equally famous groupbetting on atlantis 
YLG. Check it out:AtlanticYellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis): 
Frédéric Jiguet, Martin Reid,Norman van Swelm, etc.Dark LesserBlack-backed 
Gull - graellsii or intermedius: Killian Mullarney, Peter Alfrey, 
DominicMitchell, Alvaro Jaramillo, Jan Jörgensen, Lou Bertalan (?), 
etc.Theselection is a little biased towards LBBG, but there is an additional 
“fact”that may somehow balance things: having seen the bird in the field, I 
wish tostring the ID in order to make the record as interesting as possible!!! 
J I know that stringing is taboo inmany countries where birders will never call 
themselves stringers, not even asa joke. I think the rationale in that is 
“For Caesar’s wife, it’s not enough tobe serious, she must also look 
serious” (the Portuguese version of“Caesar's wife must be above 
suspicion”). Since I’m not Caesar’s wife, and noteven a woman who is 
married, whenever I mention stringing, please do assume I’mjoking!So, 
moreseriously, Martin Reid already played an excellent Devil’s Advocate 
trying toshow that it’s very hard to demonstrate that this is not an atlantis 
YLG. I’lltry to go further along that road by (1) opposing previous points 
that supposedlywould eliminate atlantis YLG and (2) running by you van 
Duivendijk’s points forpositive ID of atlantis YLG. 

 - Points presented previously that supposedlywould eliminate atlantis YLG 
include a) structure, b) moult and c) plumage. My counterargumentsare as 
follows: 

   
 - How reliably can we separate a bigmale LBBG from a small female atlantis YLG 
on structure? 

 - Out of range birds are known todisplay unusual moult patterns. As an example 
in gulls, I mention the Caspiangulls present in Continental Portugal in January 
2015. This bird was in a typicalstage of moult (only mantle & scaps were 2 nd 
gen): https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650315883846but this 
other bird was quite advanced (2 nd gen tertials and innerupperwing coverts as 
well): https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157647753684393; 

 - In my view Martin Reid already didan excellent job showing tertials, 
scapulars and coverts have a pattern largelycompatible with atlantis YLG, so 
I’ll try to deal with what Dominic called “irregular,patchy 'charcoal' 
streaking tainting significant areas of the plumage,especially the face and 
underparts. They look scraggy and dishevelled, far fromthe near-immaculate 
appearance of this bird” and Killian described as “'swarthy',somewhat 
grizzled plumage texture”. Can you see that on this bird: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650463248089(please imagine 
the neck was not bent, thereby hiding the only irregular/patchy/ swarthy/ 
grizzled patch)? 

 2) Now forthe points that van Duivendijk (2010) lists for positive ID of 
atlantis YLG:“Allplumages: shorter tarsus, larger feet, heavier bill and 
broader wings thanmichahellis.”The birdstibiae look short in every picture of 
the standing bird and feet look quite largeon this photo: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/15871927494The bill is not very heavy 
but, as mentioned before, it could perhaps be heavyenough for a small female 
atlantis YLG. Wing broadness looks quite striking onthis photo: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16308545387not at all the slender wings 
of 1cy LBBG illustrated in pp. 191 and 184 ofCollins BG.“Juvenile -1st-w: 
very dark upperparts (pale notching restricted) andunderparts can recall 
American Herring Gull”Check andcheck, but not diagnostic.“Dark frontside of 
tarsus, often retained to 2cy”Present but,as mentioned in previous posts, 
does not eliminate 1cy LBBG.“Flight allplumages: Broad wings, especially 
arm”Yep. Seeabove.“Flight Juvenile- 1st-w: Broader dark terminal tail-band 
than michahellis (tail anduppertail covert pattern strongly resembles 
LBBG)Checks, butnot diagnostic“Innerprimaries hardly any paler (upperwing 
nearly as LBBG)”Checks, butnot diagnostic“very darkgreater coverts creating 
2nd dark band (in michahellis usually lessdistinct)”Again thislooks more 
conspicuous in https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16308545387than in 1cy 
LBBG illustrated in pp. 191 and 184 of Collins BG.So, intheory, to me this 
could be a standard textbook atlantis YLG
 I guess mynext steps will be (1) 
posting a request for ID help in GRO forum, (2) asking PeterRock for his 
opinion (he as handled quite a few juvenile LBBGs over the years –quite a few 
thousands, I mean!- so maybe has records of such dark birds) and(3) trying to 
obtain the photos of dark LBBG from Mike or Killian.Also, Ilook forward for any 
extra comments from you guys!Cheers andmany thanks in advance, LuĂ­s G 

       From: Dominic Mitchell 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 19:14
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
   
Hi Luis and all
I came late to this thread but nonetheless would like to add my 50 (euro) 
cents. 

In my view your bird is, as Alvaro and others have already stated, a Lesser 
Black-backed Gull. Without repeating the reasons given by others, its 
relatively small size (for a large gull) and placid demeanour, as well as 
structure, head and bill profile, and certain plumage features all point in 
combination to Lesser Black-backed Gull. I see nothing really problematic with 
tail pattern, given the variation shown by this species. It is not an 'Azores 
Gull' (Larus michahellis atlantis) in my opinion, this taxon rarely retaining 
juvenile plumage beyond September and apparently only exceptionally so beyond 
October (only a handful out of the thousands of 1cy Azores Gulls I've seen over 
the last nine Octobers have appeared obviously juvenile). In any case, young 
Azores Gulls have a quite different character, generally looking more brutish 
and strongly built, and plumage-wise having irregular, patchy 'charcoal' 
streaking tainting significant areas of the plumage, especially the face and 
underparts. They look scraggy and dishevelled, far from the near-immaculate 
appearance of this bird, which while perhaps late in moult terms and darker 
than average, otherwise shows some good Lesser Black-back features such as 
largely dark greater coverts and no pale 'window' on the inner primaries. 

As for California Gull, there are no accepted records on the European side of 
the Atlantic and, as far as I'm aware, no hard evidence to support any 
unsubmitted claims you may have heard about, from The Netherlands or anywhere 
else in the Western Palearctic. If anyone has photos or video to the contrary, 
I'd love to see them. 

I hope this helps,
Dominic Mitchell 
----------------------------------------------------------------Managing Editor 
| Birdwatch and BirdGuidesBlog: www.birdingetc.com | 
Twitter:  AT birdingetc Facebook | Bird tours: Azores and more 

      From: Luis Gordinho 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 18:06
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
  
Dear Alvaro,Floyd, Norman, Suzanne, Martin & Steve,Many thanksto all six for 
your comments.I’m a membersince 2009 and I only did four or five posts, so 
such warm (re-)welcome wassomehow surprising (but very appreciated!). It is 
sad, but fair, to say that AmericanBirders are much friendlier than European 
ones! More indetail
Alvaro, Floyd,Norman, Suzanne & Steve: thanks for 
helping me to completely excludeCalifornia G. Obviously my desire to score big 
and my lack of experience withCalifornia G got the best of 
me!http://www.tertial.us/gulls/gulls.htmlooks like a great resource 
Steve! Norman:“There havebeen several California Gulls in Europe
”You 
meanclaims or records? Are there any records accepted by rarities 
committees?Inparticular, apart from your two claims/records from The 
Netherlands (1-1stsummer + 1ad), do you know if there are any 
others?“Larusatlantis races as these are very common in Portugal”I 
gotscared at first when I read this sentence (since atlantis is a rarity 
inContinental Portugal) but then I realized that you use Larus atlantis for 
whatmost “taxonomic authorities”* call Larus michahellis (which is indeed 
common inContinental Portugal).I read someof the text in the 3rd link you 
provide, so now I realize you use “yourown” taxonomy. And, IMO, you’re 
more than welcome to do it, of course.(*pleasenote that I’m for the authority 
of arguments and against the argument ofauthority so, when I say “taxonomic 
authorities”, I mean taxonomic committeesthat use valid arguments to elect, 
standardize and publish avian taxonomy inpeer-reviewed journals)Your photosof 
Azorean Atlantic Gull from The Netherlands are very nice and useful Norman.And 
so are the Pep Arcos + Peter Alfrey photos you present Martin. Norman& 
Martin:Thanks foradding more good arguments to the “atlantis theory” 
initially proposed by FrédéricJiguet. It is paradigmatic that I would be 
fooled by a pitfall that I’ve triedwarning North American Birders of in my 
2009 Birding article (cf. p. 44): 
http://www.aba.org/birding/v41n1p38.pdfAlsosomehow paradigmatic is a Portuguese 
birder being helped by a French birder toID an Azorean gull (The Azores are 
Portuguese territory, even if located 860miles away from Continental Portugal 
in a different biogeographic region). Thisis a weaker paradigm though, since 
top birders in the Azores are Swedish andEnglish 
(http://birdingazores.com/?page=xlist&s=0)and Fred has been to the Azores more 
times than me!Until moreevidence or better arguments came up, I’ll call this 
bird an AtlanticYellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis).Cheers,thanks 
again and keep up the good and friendly birding!LuĂ­s G 

       From: Steve Hampton 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 5:08
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
  
The dark upper tail/banded under tail is actually a fairly common feature
with many 1st cycle gulls.  In California, where Western and Calif Gulls
predominate along the coast, both look mostly dark tailed from above.  From
below, though, Calif Gull shows a thick dark band with pale bases at the
corners (though usually patterned dark and light-- but much more light from
below).

As for the subject bird, I agree with Alvaro's comments.  Calif Gulls can
look superficially like this (but with a darker tail) in July-Aug when
fresh off the nest.  By fall and winter they look totally different.  Now
they look like Figures 13, 14, and 15 here:
http://www.tertial.us/gulls/cali1.htm





On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Reid Martin  wrote:

> Actually Suzanne, There is a 1st year gull tail white half of the
> underside and almost all black on the upper side - when held almost
> closed:- Azorean Yellow-legged Gull.
>
> This tail pattern can be found in Azorean Gull because of their propensity
> for having the inner webs of the outer Rs almost unmarked white (basal to
> the dark band) while having far less white on the outer webs of these Rs.
> When the tail is held almost closed, as on the pics of the Portuguese bird,
> there is very little white visible even though from below it looks
> white-based.
>
> Have a look at these Azorean Gulls - and also note the variation in
> rump/utc pattern, with some quite densely-marked:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap10.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap11.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap12.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap13.html
>
> -and on this page look at the tail of the bird just above the final two
> pics of standing birds:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap06.html
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2015, at Feb 11, 9:34 PM, Suzanne Sullivan wrote:
>
> > Luis,
> > I agree also not a California gull. One thing maybe  safe to say, this
> gull
> > is very young. It looks like it just hopped off the nest, it is so fresh,
> > only a couple of new scaps. The tail is just bizarre. I don’t think 
I’ve 

> > ever seen a 1st year gull tail white half of the under side and almost
> all
> > black on the upper side. I think this gull may have pigment issues. My
> > guess is it is a Northern Type Herring Gull with some pigment issues,
> some
> > can be very dark.  Or a Thayer’s gull with pigment issues. The chest
> looks
> > velvety.  I can see HERG and Thayer’s in there but also LBBG in the 
solid 

> > coverts. Maybe a Thayers X LBBG hybrid? Very cool.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Luis Gordinho 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album
> >> below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also
> have
> >> a look at the captions)
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650331075457  For
> those
> >> of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story
On the 14thof
> >> December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13
> >> photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria
> >> beach,Almada (SetĂșbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed
> >> mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen
> >> (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What
> >> stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the
> >> plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks,
> more
> >> evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird
> seamed
> >> to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide,
> 2.nd
> >> Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as
> >> American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever
> >> uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it
> had
> >> no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely 
excluding the 

> >> remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made
> a
> >> mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went
> by
> >> and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek
> >> Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on
> >> January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while
> >> fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several
> points
> >> seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the 
inner 

> >> “hands” in particular looks fatal but
In addition, I thinkthe bird 
does 

> >> have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
> >>  - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
> >>  - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
> >>  - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear
> >> coverts for such adark bird.
> >> So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G
> would
> >> be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)
 (*
> >>
> 
http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro 

> >> Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and
> >> axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and
> >> undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro
> >> LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by
> >> December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail
> feathers
> >> visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in
> >> juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d
> >> still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird
> >> (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos
> of
> >> equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here
> >> http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg1cy/lbbg1cynovdec.htmlAlso, Frédéric
> >> Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis)
> >> via Flickrjust now:
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16468475306Thanks Fred!Any
> ideas?
> >> Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, LuĂ­s G
> >>
> >> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Suzanne M. Sullivan
> > Wilmington, MA
> > swampy435 AT gmail.com
> >
> > Be the Voice of the River
> > http://www.ipswichriver.org
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA







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Subject: Hoary Redpoll Question
From: "R.D. Everhart" <everhart AT BLACK-HOLE.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:22:05 -0600
   Thanks to everyone who responded to my question about the redpolls
I saw at Sax-Zim this weekend. The consensus was yes on Hoary and I
learned a ton about ID. You guys are the best!

Roger Everhart
Apple Valley, MN

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Chlidonias tern query
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:55:02 -0500
 All:

I think that Jason's bird 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/9919372136/in/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/9919392633/in/photostream/

is odd in at least a couple of respects. And having been one of the folks that 
he had originally queried, I thought that I'd lay out my problems with the 
bird's ID. 


The upper side of the wings look dark enough in the first picture (the upper 
side to the wings is just too blown out in the second pic to be useful) for the 
bird to be considered a Chlidonias. However, the under side to the wings -- 
which are not overexposed at all, in fact, are shaded -- look far too white for 
Black Tern in any plumage. While one might then start considering White-winged 
Tern, that species lacks the bird's shoulder bar. I think that Whiskered Tern 
is right out. Additionally at odds with, at least, typical American Black Tern 
(surinamensis), is the minimalness of the shoulder bar, which is virtually 
always considerably thicker and much more obvious. 


I then considered Least/Little Tern, as the proportions of the bird seemed to 
me to rule out any other tern options. While the bird looks fairly good for a 
member of Sternula in most respects, neither species that is at all likely in 
the U. S. southeast is supposed to sport a shoulder bar. 


So, I'm at an impasse and suggested that Jason cast his net more widely for ID 
opinions. 


BTW -- two pictures of a non-alternate-plumaged American Black Tern taken 
recently in Florida can be found on Flickr. 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/16435490 AT N00/16208297380

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16435490 AT N00/16209461609

While the bird certainly sports a fairly white crown (as does Jason's bird), 
the under side to the wings are obviously dark. 


Sincerely,

Tony


 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/






All:

I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in

Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern

with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast

peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached

out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American

Black Tern.  I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several

experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion

that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern

and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least

Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.



I have only these 2 photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...



Thanks very much for any opinions.

Jason Hoeksema

Oxford, MS



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...






			
		
			
			  
  

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All:

I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in

Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern

with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast

peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached

out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American

Black Tern.  I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several

experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion

that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern

and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least

Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.



I have only these 2 photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...



Thanks very much for any opinions.

Jason Hoeksema

Oxford, MS



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...






			
		
			
			  
  

ABA's FREE guide to
gear

ABA's FREE guide to
listing & taxonomy



ABA's FREE guide to
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ABA Blog » #abarare

#ABArare – White-throated Thrush – Texas
Feb 7, 2015
 On February 6, 2015, Todd McGrath found an ABA Code 4 White-throated Thrush at 
Estero Llano Grande State Park
 


#ABArare – Fieldfare – Nova Scotia
Feb 2, 2015
 On January 31, Kathleen Spicer discovered an ABA Code 4 Fieldfare visiting a 
fruiting apple tree in her garden
 


#ABArare – Common Scoter – California
Feb 1, 2015
 On January 25, Bill Bouton found and photographed an apparent Common Scoter in 
the Crescent City boat basin in
 


The TOP 10: Best ABA Area Vagrants of 2014
Jan 29, 2015
 By Nate Swick and George Armistead 2013 was an incredible year for vagrants, 
particularly unexpected ones, and a hard
 


#ABArare – Gray-crowned Yellowthroat – Texas
Jan 25, 2015
 A bird walk yesterday morning led by Huck Hutchens at Estero Llano Grande 
State Park in Hidalgo Co, Texas,
 


 
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Subject: Re: Chlidonias tern query
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:22:51 -0500
Hi Jason
 
First this is not a juvenile Least Tern for many reasons, especially the  
fact that it sports clearly visible ‘breast patch’ that is one of traits of 

Black Tern here and it is never shown in Least Terns. I would not even take 
it  (LETE) under consideration and if others might think otherwise I would 
like to  read their arguments.
 
In the past I tried  to start discussions on tern plumages in several  
places (as I have quite extensive collection of photos showing inconsequence  
and/or perhaps limited knowledge about this subject in published articles and  
guides; many wintering terns were not studied extensively) but lack of 
interest  stopped my effort to continue processing photos and posting them. In 
fact I  started (but decided to stop for reason listed above) putting 
together collection of winter plumages of some terns, including Black Tern, 
which 

is one  of the good examples showing that published data is incomplete and 
in some cases  could be misleading. 
 
To me everything in your photos seems to point to Black Tern C. n.  
surinamensis in winter plumage (Whiskered and White-winged do not sport breast 

patch either). In fact I could easily call it typical surinamensis in range of 

winter plumage pattern (according to my own data but not the` published  
examples). Statement that this is “definitely‘ not an American Black Tern 
is 

very interesting, at least to me - was it based on arguments? If yes, could 
you  please copy them here? C. n. niger is always illustrated in winter 
plumage with very dark crown (as I did not study this subspecies in the field 

I can  only relay on what was published on this subject). But surinamensis 
can sports  almost white crown in winter plumage (not portrayed in 
literature; and on the other hand easily blown to completely white in 
overexposed 

photo) that matches  or even excess what we would expect in ‘typical’ 
White-winged in basic plumage (as per published data - this is another species 
I 

have no field experience)  .    
 
I waited to see what others will post but with lack of replies I decided to 
 add my 2 cents, and I am still very interested to see what others might  
add.
 
Cheers,
 
Mark
 
Mark B Bartosik
Houston, Texas
 
 
In a message dated 2/16/2015 9:17:12 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
hoeksema AT OLEMISS.EDU writes:

All:
I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I  photographed in
Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a  *Chlidonias *tern
with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a  fairly limited 'breast
peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit  and someone bleached
out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit  a typical American
Black Tern.  I'm posting here now because I have  sent the photos to several
experts, and have received a variety of  opinions, including one assertion
that it is 'definitely' not a typical  American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
and may be a European ('niger') Black  Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
Tern, and additional suggestions to  obtain more opinions.

I have only these 2  photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/9919372136/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/9919392633/in/photostream/

Thanks  very much for any opinions.
Jason Hoeksema
Oxford, MS

Archives:  http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Chlidonias tern query
From: Hans Larsson <longicaudus AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:02:16 +0100
Hi Jason,

Among other details, white secondaries and inner primaries rule out the
*chlidonias* option, so Least Tern looks a very good match:
https://usfwsnortheast.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/4908799882_66437b8882_o.jpg

With best regards,
Hans

2015-02-17 4:15 GMT+01:00 Jason Hoeksema :

> All:
> I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in
> Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern
> with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast
> peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached
> out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American
> Black Tern.  I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several
> experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion
> that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
> and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
> Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.
>
> I have only these 2 photos:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/9919372136/in/photostream/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/9919392633/in/photostream/
>
> Thanks very much for any opinions.
> Jason Hoeksema
> Oxford, MS
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office.
From: Paul Wood <paul.r.wood AT UK.PWC.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 06:28:22 +0000
I will be out of the office from 17/02/2015 until 19/02/2015.

I will respond to your message when I return.




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Subject: Chlidonias tern query
From: Jason Hoeksema <hoeksema AT OLEMISS.EDU>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 21:15:40 -0600
All:
I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in
Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern
with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast
peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached
out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American
Black Tern.  I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several
experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion
that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.

I have only these 2 photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/9919372136/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/9919392633/in/photostream/

Thanks very much for any opinions.
Jason Hoeksema
Oxford, MS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Hoary Redpoll question
From: "Matthew A. Young" <may6 AT CORNELL.EDU>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 01:31:42 +0000
I would ID both birds as a Hoary. I tried to post this on your blog too. 

Matt Young
Ithaca, NY

________________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Jean Iron  

Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 6:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Hoary Redpoll question

The redpoll on the right in the second and third photos is almost certainly
a Hoary by its overall whiteness, almost unmarked undertail coverts, very
lightly marked sides, and its bill appears more obtuse (stubby) in the
second photo than on most Commons. The bird in the top photo and on the left
in the second and third photos may be a Hoary, but we hesitate to call it
one because the photos are slightly overexposed and fewer characters are
visible. Hoaries should be identified on a suite of characters - the more
characters the greater the certainty. Please see link for more information
on identifying Common and Hoary Redpolls and their subspecies ID.
http://jeaniron.ca/2015/redpollsRP.htm

Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron
Toronto, Ontario



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of R.D. Everhart
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 4:28 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Hoary Redpoll question

Hey folks -

   I was up in northern Minnesota yesterday and saw what I believe is a
Hoary Redpoll and I'm looking for some input. I have posted the best three
shots that I think will be of use. If anyone has a good feel for this
species please feel free to give an opinion. Of the hundreds of redpolls we
saw yesterday I only saw 2 that I think fit Hoary.

http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com


  Thanks for the help.

Roger Everhart
Apple Valley, MN

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Hoary Redpoll question
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 18:31:34 -0500
The redpoll on the right in the second and third photos is almost certainly
a Hoary by its overall whiteness, almost unmarked undertail coverts, very
lightly marked sides, and its bill appears more obtuse (stubby) in the
second photo than on most Commons. The bird in the top photo and on the left
in the second and third photos may be a Hoary, but we hesitate to call it
one because the photos are slightly overexposed and fewer characters are
visible. Hoaries should be identified on a suite of characters - the more
characters the greater the certainty. Please see link for more information
on identifying Common and Hoary Redpolls and their subspecies ID.
http://jeaniron.ca/2015/redpollsRP.htm

Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron
Toronto, Ontario



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of R.D. Everhart
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 4:28 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Hoary Redpoll question

Hey folks -

   I was up in northern Minnesota yesterday and saw what I believe is a
Hoary Redpoll and I'm looking for some input. I have posted the best three
shots that I think will be of use. If anyone has a good feel for this
species please feel free to give an opinion. Of the hundreds of redpolls we
saw yesterday I only saw 2 that I think fit Hoary.

http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com


  Thanks for the help.

Roger Everhart
Apple Valley, MN

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Hoary Redpoll question
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 17:14:46 -0500
 Hi Roger:

I would ID both birds in pix 2 and 3 as Hoaries. Both birds are of a size and 
both are quite frosty. Additionally, the upper bird's rump is immaculate, while 
the streaking on the undertail coverts of the lower bird is within the range of 
variation for the species. 


Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: R.D. Everhart 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Mon, Feb 16, 2015 4:30 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Hoary Redpoll question


Hey folks -

   I was up in northern Minnesota yesterday and saw what I believe is
a Hoary Redpoll and I'm looking for some input. I have posted the
best three shots that I think will be of use. If anyone has a good
feel for this species please feel free to give an opinion. Of the
hundreds of redpolls we saw yesterday I only saw 2 that I think fit
Hoary.

http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com


  Thanks for the help.

Roger Everhart
Apple Valley, MN

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Hoary Redpoll question
From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 16:39:25 -0500
In a message dated 16/02/2015 21:30:46 GMT Standard Time,  
everhart AT BLACK-HOLE.COM writes:

http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
Your bird looks good for HORNEMANNI (Hornemann's Arctic Redpoll) to me  - 
nice buffish wash to head & face, short, pinched-in bill, heavily cloaked  
tarsi feathers, gleaming white flank sides, breast & undertail coverts, pure  
white wing-bars, bulky size, somewhat rounded appearance with more heavily  
cloaked body feathers, etc - can't see too much of a problem with it
 
Very best wishes  

You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding

Make  your records go much further and contribute towards the protection, 
knowledge  and further education of our native wildlife - join up to 
BIRDTRACK today - you  know it makes sense -  
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Lee G  R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour  Leader
General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ 
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) 
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(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/) 
Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information - 
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Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements - 
_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_ 
(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/) 

Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
Western  Palearctic Bird News - 
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
Items  For Sale or Exchange - 
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Local  Websites
Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
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Buckinghamshire  Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Birds  of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Hoary Redpoll question
From: "R.D. Everhart" <everhart AT BLACK-HOLE.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 15:28:15 -0600
Hey folks -

   I was up in northern Minnesota yesterday and saw what I believe is
a Hoary Redpoll and I'm looking for some input. I have posted the
best three shots that I think will be of use. If anyone has a good
feel for this species please feel free to give an opinion. Of the
hundreds of redpolls we saw yesterday I only saw 2 that I think fit
Hoary.

http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com


  Thanks for the help.

Roger Everhart
Apple Valley, MN

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
From: Dominic Mitchell <dominic.mitchell AT YAHOO.CO.UK>
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 19:14:25 +0000
Hi Luis and all
I came late to this thread but nonetheless would like to add my 50 (euro) 
cents. 

In my view your bird is, as Alvaro and others have already stated, a Lesser 
Black-backed Gull. Without repeating the reasons given by others, its 
relatively small size (for a large gull) and placid demeanour, as well as 
structure, head and bill profile, and certain plumage features all point in 
combination to Lesser Black-backed Gull. I see nothing really problematic with 
tail pattern, given the variation shown by this species. It is not an 'Azores 
Gull' (Larus michahellis atlantis) in my opinion, this taxon rarely retaining 
juvenile plumage beyond September and apparently only exceptionally so beyond 
October (only a handful out of the thousands of 1cy Azores Gulls I've seen over 
the last nine Octobers have appeared obviously juvenile). In any case, young 
Azores Gulls have a quite different character, generally looking more brutish 
and strongly built, and plumage-wise having irregular, patchy 'charcoal' 
streaking tainting significant areas of the plumage, especially the face and 
underparts. They look scraggy and dishevelled, far from the near-immaculate 
appearance of this bird, which while perhaps late in moult terms and darker 
than average, otherwise shows some good Lesser Black-back features such as 
largely dark greater coverts and no pale 'window' on the inner primaries. 

As for California Gull, there are no accepted records on the European side of 
the Atlantic and, as far as I'm aware, no hard evidence to support any 
unsubmitted claims you may have heard about, from The Netherlands or anywhere 
else in the Western Palearctic. If anyone has photos or video to the contrary, 
I'd love to see them. 

I hope this helps,
Dominic Mitchell 
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      From: Luis Gordinho 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 18:06
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
   
Dear Alvaro,Floyd, Norman, Suzanne, Martin & Steve,Many thanksto all six for 
your comments.I’m a membersince 2009 and I only did four or five posts, so 
such warm (re-)welcome wassomehow surprising (but very appreciated!). It is 
sad, but fair, to say that AmericanBirders are much friendlier than European 
ones! More indetail
Alvaro, Floyd,Norman, Suzanne & Steve: thanks for 
helping me to completely excludeCalifornia G. Obviously my desire to score big 
and my lack of experience withCalifornia G got the best of 
me!http://www.tertial.us/gulls/gulls.htmlooks like a great resource 
Steve! Norman:“There havebeen several California Gulls in Europe
”You 
meanclaims or records? Are there any records accepted by rarities 
committees?Inparticular, apart from your two claims/records from The 
Netherlands (1-1stsummer + 1ad), do you know if there are any 
others?“Larusatlantis races as these are very common in Portugal”I 
gotscared at first when I read this sentence (since atlantis is a rarity 
inContinental Portugal) but then I realized that you use Larus atlantis for 
whatmost “taxonomic authorities”* call Larus michahellis (which is indeed 
common inContinental Portugal).I read someof the text in the 3rd link you 
provide, so now I realize you use “yourown” taxonomy. And, IMO, you’re 
more than welcome to do it, of course.(*pleasenote that I’m for the authority 
of arguments and against the argument ofauthority so, when I say “taxonomic 
authorities”, I mean taxonomic committeesthat use valid arguments to elect, 
standardize and publish avian taxonomy inpeer-reviewed journals)Your photosof 
Azorean Atlantic Gull from The Netherlands are very nice and useful Norman.And 
so are the Pep Arcos + Peter Alfrey photos you present Martin. Norman& 
Martin:Thanks foradding more good arguments to the “atlantis theory” 
initially proposed by FrédéricJiguet. It is paradigmatic that I would be 
fooled by a pitfall that I’ve triedwarning North American Birders of in my 
2009 Birding article (cf. p. 44): 
http://www.aba.org/birding/v41n1p38.pdfAlsosomehow paradigmatic is a Portuguese 
birder being helped by a French birder toID an Azorean gull (The Azores are 
Portuguese territory, even if located 860miles away from Continental Portugal 
in a different biogeographic region). Thisis a weaker paradigm though, since 
top birders in the Azores are Swedish andEnglish 
(http://birdingazores.com/?page=xlist&s=0)and Fred has been to the Azores more 
times than me!Until moreevidence or better arguments came up, I’ll call this 
bird an AtlanticYellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis).Cheers,thanks 
again and keep up the good and friendly birding!LuĂ­s G 

       From: Steve Hampton 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 5:08
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
  
The dark upper tail/banded under tail is actually a fairly common feature
with many 1st cycle gulls.  In California, where Western and Calif Gulls
predominate along the coast, both look mostly dark tailed from above.  From
below, though, Calif Gull shows a thick dark band with pale bases at the
corners (though usually patterned dark and light-- but much more light from
below).

As for the subject bird, I agree with Alvaro's comments.  Calif Gulls can
look superficially like this (but with a darker tail) in July-Aug when
fresh off the nest.  By fall and winter they look totally different.  Now
they look like Figures 13, 14, and 15 here:
http://www.tertial.us/gulls/cali1.htm





On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Reid Martin  wrote:

> Actually Suzanne, There is a 1st year gull tail white half of the
> underside and almost all black on the upper side - when held almost
> closed:- Azorean Yellow-legged Gull.
>
> This tail pattern can be found in Azorean Gull because of their propensity
> for having the inner webs of the outer Rs almost unmarked white (basal to
> the dark band) while having far less white on the outer webs of these Rs.
> When the tail is held almost closed, as on the pics of the Portuguese bird,
> there is very little white visible even though from below it looks
> white-based.
>
> Have a look at these Azorean Gulls - and also note the variation in
> rump/utc pattern, with some quite densely-marked:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap10.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap11.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap12.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap13.html
>
> -and on this page look at the tail of the bird just above the final two
> pics of standing birds:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap06.html
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2015, at Feb 11, 9:34 PM, Suzanne Sullivan wrote:
>
> > Luis,
> > I agree also not a California gull. One thing maybe  safe to say, this
> gull
> > is very young. It looks like it just hopped off the nest, it is so fresh,
> > only a couple of new scaps. The tail is just bizarre. I don’t think 
I’ve 

> > ever seen a 1st year gull tail white half of the under side and almost
> all
> > black on the upper side. I think this gull may have pigment issues. My
> > guess is it is a Northern Type Herring Gull with some pigment issues,
> some
> > can be very dark.  Or a Thayer’s gull with pigment issues. The chest
> looks
> > velvety.  I can see HERG and Thayer’s in there but also LBBG in the 
solid 

> > coverts. Maybe a Thayers X LBBG hybrid? Very cool.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Luis Gordinho 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album
> >> below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also
> have
> >> a look at the captions)
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650331075457  For
> those
> >> of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story
On the 14thof
> >> December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13
> >> photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria
> >> beach,Almada (SetĂșbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed
> >> mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen
> >> (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What
> >> stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the
> >> plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks,
> more
> >> evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird
> seamed
> >> to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide,
> 2.nd
> >> Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as
> >> American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever
> >> uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it
> had
> >> no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely 
excluding the 

> >> remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made
> a
> >> mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went
> by
> >> and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek
> >> Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on
> >> January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while
> >> fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several
> points
> >> seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the 
inner 

> >> “hands” in particular looks fatal but
In addition, I thinkthe bird 
does 

> >> have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
> >>  - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
> >>  - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
> >>  - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear
> >> coverts for such adark bird.
> >> So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G
> would
> >> be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)
 (*
> >>
> 
http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro 

> >> Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and
> >> axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and
> >> undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro
> >> LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by
> >> December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail
> feathers
> >> visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in
> >> juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d
> >> still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird
> >> (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos
> of
> >> equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here
> >> http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg1cy/lbbg1cynovdec.htmlAlso, Frédéric
> >> Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis)
> >> via Flickrjust now:
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16468475306Thanks Fred!Any
> ideas?
> >> Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, LuĂ­s G
> >>
> >> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Suzanne M. Sullivan
> > Wilmington, MA
> > swampy435 AT gmail.com
> >
> > Be the Voice of the River
> > http://www.ipswichriver.org
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA





Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
From: Luis Gordinho <lgordinho AT YAHOO.CO.UK>
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 18:06:54 +0000
Dear Alvaro,Floyd, Norman, Suzanne, Martin & Steve,Many thanksto all six for 
your comments.I’m a membersince 2009 and I only did four or five posts, so 
such warm (re-)welcome wassomehow surprising (but very appreciated!). It is 
sad, but fair, to say that AmericanBirders are much friendlier than European 
ones! More indetail
Alvaro, Floyd,Norman, Suzanne & Steve: thanks for 
helping me to completely excludeCalifornia G. Obviously my desire to score big 
and my lack of experience withCalifornia G got the best of 
me!http://www.tertial.us/gulls/gulls.htmlooks like a great resource 
Steve! Norman:“There havebeen several California Gulls in Europe
”You 
meanclaims or records? Are there any records accepted by rarities 
committees?Inparticular, apart from your two claims/records from The 
Netherlands (1-1stsummer + 1ad), do you know if there are any 
others?“Larusatlantis races as these are very common in Portugal”I 
gotscared at first when I read this sentence (since atlantis is a rarity 
inContinental Portugal) but then I realized that you use Larus atlantis for 
whatmost “taxonomic authorities”* call Larus michahellis (which is indeed 
common inContinental Portugal).I read someof the text in the 3rd link you 
provide, so now I realize you use “yourown” taxonomy. And, IMO, you’re 
more than welcome to do it, of course.(*pleasenote that I’m for the authority 
of arguments and against the argument ofauthority so, when I say “taxonomic 
authorities”, I mean taxonomic committeesthat use valid arguments to elect, 
standardize and publish avian taxonomy inpeer-reviewed journals)Your photosof 
Azorean Atlantic Gull from The Netherlands are very nice and useful Norman.And 
so are the Pep Arcos + Peter Alfrey photos you present Martin. Norman& 
Martin:Thanks foradding more good arguments to the “atlantis theory” 
initially proposed by FrédéricJiguet. It is paradigmatic that I would be 
fooled by a pitfall that I’ve triedwarning North American Birders of in my 
2009 Birding article (cf. p. 44): 
http://www.aba.org/birding/v41n1p38.pdfAlsosomehow paradigmatic is a Portuguese 
birder being helped by a French birder toID an Azorean gull (The Azores are 
Portuguese territory, even if located 860miles away from Continental Portugal 
in a different biogeographic region). Thisis a weaker paradigm though, since 
top birders in the Azores are Swedish andEnglish 
(http://birdingazores.com/?page=xlist&s=0)and Fred has been to the Azores more 
times than me!Until moreevidence or better arguments came up, I’ll call this 
bird an AtlanticYellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis).Cheers,thanks 
again and keep up the good and friendly birding!LuĂ­s G 

       From: Steve Hampton 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 5:08
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
   
The dark upper tail/banded under tail is actually a fairly common feature
with many 1st cycle gulls.  In California, where Western and Calif Gulls
predominate along the coast, both look mostly dark tailed from above.  From
below, though, Calif Gull shows a thick dark band with pale bases at the
corners (though usually patterned dark and light-- but much more light from
below).

As for the subject bird, I agree with Alvaro's comments.  Calif Gulls can
look superficially like this (but with a darker tail) in July-Aug when
fresh off the nest.  By fall and winter they look totally different.  Now
they look like Figures 13, 14, and 15 here:
http://www.tertial.us/gulls/cali1.htm





On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Reid Martin  wrote:

> Actually Suzanne, There is a 1st year gull tail white half of the
> underside and almost all black on the upper side - when held almost
> closed:- Azorean Yellow-legged Gull.
>
> This tail pattern can be found in Azorean Gull because of their propensity
> for having the inner webs of the outer Rs almost unmarked white (basal to
> the dark band) while having far less white on the outer webs of these Rs.
> When the tail is held almost closed, as on the pics of the Portuguese bird,
> there is very little white visible even though from below it looks
> white-based.
>
> Have a look at these Azorean Gulls - and also note the variation in
> rump/utc pattern, with some quite densely-marked:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap10.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap11.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap12.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap13.html
>
> -and on this page look at the tail of the bird just above the final two
> pics of standing birds:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap06.html
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2015, at Feb 11, 9:34 PM, Suzanne Sullivan wrote:
>
> > Luis,
> > I agree also not a California gull. One thing maybe  safe to say, this
> gull
> > is very young. It looks like it just hopped off the nest, it is so fresh,
> > only a couple of new scaps. The tail is just bizarre. I don’t think 
I’ve 

> > ever seen a 1st year gull tail white half of the under side and almost
> all
> > black on the upper side. I think this gull may have pigment issues. My
> > guess is it is a Northern Type Herring Gull with some pigment issues,
> some
> > can be very dark.  Or a Thayer’s gull with pigment issues. The chest
> looks
> > velvety.  I can see HERG and Thayer’s in there but also LBBG in the 
solid 

> > coverts. Maybe a Thayers X LBBG hybrid? Very cool.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Luis Gordinho 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album
> >> below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also
> have
> >> a look at the captions)
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650331075457  For
> those
> >> of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story
On the 14thof
> >> December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13
> >> photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria
> >> beach,Almada (SetĂșbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed
> >> mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen
> >> (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What
> >> stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the
> >> plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks,
> more
> >> evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird
> seamed
> >> to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide,
> 2.nd
> >> Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as
> >> American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever
> >> uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it
> had
> >> no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely 
excluding the 

> >> remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made
> a
> >> mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went
> by
> >> and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek
> >> Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on
> >> January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while
> >> fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several
> points
> >> seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the 
inner 

> >> “hands” in particular looks fatal but
In addition, I thinkthe bird 
does 

> >> have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
> >>  - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
> >>  - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
> >>  - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear
> >> coverts for such adark bird.
> >> So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G
> would
> >> be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)
 (*
> >>
> 
http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro 

> >> Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and
> >> axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and
> >> undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro
> >> LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by
> >> December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail
> feathers
> >> visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in
> >> juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d
> >> still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird
> >> (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos
> of
> >> equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here
> >> http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg1cy/lbbg1cynovdec.htmlAlso, Frédéric
> >> Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis)
> >> via Flickrjust now:
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16468475306Thanks Fred!Any
> ideas?
> >> Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, LuĂ­s G
> >>
> >> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Suzanne M. Sullivan
> > Wilmington, MA
> > swampy435 AT gmail.com
> >
> > Be the Voice of the River
> > http://www.ipswichriver.org
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 21:08:13 -0800
The dark upper tail/banded under tail is actually a fairly common feature
with many 1st cycle gulls.  In California, where Western and Calif Gulls
predominate along the coast, both look mostly dark tailed from above.  From
below, though, Calif Gull shows a thick dark band with pale bases at the
corners (though usually patterned dark and light-- but much more light from
below).

As for the subject bird, I agree with Alvaro's comments.  Calif Gulls can
look superficially like this (but with a darker tail) in July-Aug when
fresh off the nest.  By fall and winter they look totally different.  Now
they look like Figures 13, 14, and 15 here:
http://www.tertial.us/gulls/cali1.htm





On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Reid Martin  wrote:

> Actually Suzanne, There is a 1st year gull tail white half of the
> underside and almost all black on the upper side - when held almost
> closed:- Azorean Yellow-legged Gull.
>
> This tail pattern can be found in Azorean Gull because of their propensity
> for having the inner webs of the outer Rs almost unmarked white (basal to
> the dark band) while having far less white on the outer webs of these Rs.
> When the tail is held almost closed, as on the pics of the Portuguese bird,
> there is very little white visible even though from below it looks
> white-based.
>
> Have a look at these Azorean Gulls - and also note the variation in
> rump/utc pattern, with some quite densely-marked:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap10.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap11.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap12.html
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap13.html
>
> -and on this page look at the tail of the bird just above the final two
> pics of standing birds:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap06.html
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2015, at Feb 11, 9:34 PM, Suzanne Sullivan wrote:
>
> > Luis,
> > I agree also not a California gull. One thing maybe  safe to say, this
> gull
> > is very young. It looks like it just hopped off the nest, it is so fresh,
> > only a couple of new scaps. The tail is just bizarre. I don’t think 
I’ve 

> > ever seen a 1st year gull tail white half of the under side and almost
> all
> > black on the upper side. I think this gull may have pigment issues. My
> > guess is it is a Northern Type Herring Gull with some pigment issues,
> some
> > can be very dark.  Or a Thayer’s gull with pigment issues. The chest
> looks
> > velvety.  I can see HERG and Thayer’s in there but also LBBG in the solid
> > coverts. Maybe a Thayers X LBBG hybrid? Very cool.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Luis Gordinho 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album
> >> below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also
> have
> >> a look at the captions)
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650331075457  For
> those
> >> of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story
On the 14thof
> >> December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13
> >> photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria
> >> beach,Almada (SetĂșbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed
> >> mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen
> >> (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What
> >> stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the
> >> plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks,
> more
> >> evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird
> seamed
> >> to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide,
> 2.nd
> >> Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as
> >> American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever
> >> uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it
> had
> >> no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely 
excluding the 

> >> remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made
> a
> >> mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went
> by
> >> and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek
> >> Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on
> >> January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while
> >> fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several
> points
> >> seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the 
inner 

> >> “hands” in particular looks fatal but
In addition, I thinkthe bird 
does 

> >> have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
> >>   - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
> >>   - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
> >>   - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear
> >> coverts for such adark bird.
> >> So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G
> would
> >> be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)
 (*
> >>
> 
http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro 

> >> Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and
> >> axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and
> >> undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro
> >> LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by
> >> December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail
> feathers
> >> visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in
> >> juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d
> >> still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird
> >> (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos
> of
> >> equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here
> >> http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg1cy/lbbg1cynovdec.htmlAlso, Frédéric
> >> Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis)
> >> via Flickrjust now:
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16468475306Thanks Fred!Any
> ideas?
> >> Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, LuĂ­s G
> >>
> >> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Suzanne M. Sullivan
> > Wilmington, MA
> > swampy435 AT gmail.com
> >
> > Be the Voice of the River
> > http://www.ipswichriver.org
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
From: Reid Martin <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 22:23:30 -0600
Actually Suzanne, There is a 1st year gull tail white half of the underside and 
almost all black on the upper side - when held almost closed:- Azorean 
Yellow-legged Gull. 


This tail pattern can be found in Azorean Gull because of their propensity for 
having the inner webs of the outer Rs almost unmarked white (basal to the dark 
band) while having far less white on the outer webs of these Rs. When the tail 
is held almost closed, as on the pics of the Portuguese bird, there is very 
little white visible even though from below it looks white-based. 


Have a look at these Azorean Gulls - and also note the variation in rump/utc 
pattern, with some quite densely-marked: 

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap10.html
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap11.html
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap12.html
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap13.html

-and on this page look at the tail of the bird just above the final two pics of 
standing birds: 

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/atlap06.html

Regards,
Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com




On Feb 11, 2015, at Feb 11, 9:34 PM, Suzanne Sullivan wrote:

> Luis,
> I agree also not a California gull. One thing maybe  safe to say, this gull
> is very young. It looks like it just hopped off the nest, it is so fresh,
> only a couple of new scaps. The tail is just bizarre. I don’t think I’ve
> ever seen a 1st year gull tail white half of the under side and almost all
> black on the upper side. I think this gull may have pigment issues. My
> guess is it is a Northern Type Herring Gull with some pigment issues,  some
> can be very dark.  Or a Thayer’s gull with pigment issues. The chest looks
> velvety.  I can see HERG and Thayer’s in there but also LBBG in the solid
> coverts. Maybe a Thayers X LBBG hybrid? Very cool.
> 
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Luis Gordinho 
> wrote:
> 
>> Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album
>> below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also have
>> a look at the captions)
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650331075457  For those
>> of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story…On the 14thof
>> December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13
>> photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria
>> beach,Almada (Setúbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed
>> mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen
>> (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What
>> stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the
>> plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks, more
>> evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird seamed
>> to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide, 2.nd
>> Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as
>> American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever
>> uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it had
>> no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely excluding the
>> remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made a
>> mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went by
>> and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek
>> Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on
>> January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while
>> fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several points
>> seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the inner
>> “hands” in particular looks fatal but…In addition, I thinkthe bird does
>> have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
>>   - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
>>   - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
>>   - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear
>> coverts for such adark bird.
>> So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G would
>> be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)… (*
>> 
http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro 

>> Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and
>> axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and
>> undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro
>> LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by
>> December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail feathers
>> visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in
>> juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d
>> still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird
>> (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos of
>> equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here
>> http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg1cy/lbbg1cynovdec.htmlAlso, Frédéric
>> Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis)
>> via Flickrjust now:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16468475306Thanks Fred!Any ideas?
>> Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, Luís G
>> 
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Suzanne M. Sullivan
> Wilmington, MA
> swampy435 AT gmail.com
> 
> Be the Voice of the River
> http://www.ipswichriver.org
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
From: Suzanne Sullivan <swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 22:34:38 -0500
Luis,
I agree also not a California gull. One thing maybe  safe to say, this gull
is very young. It looks like it just hopped off the nest, it is so fresh,
only a couple of new scaps. The tail is just bizarre. I don’t think I’ve
ever seen a 1st year gull tail white half of the under side and almost all
black on the upper side. I think this gull may have pigment issues. My
guess is it is a Northern Type Herring Gull with some pigment issues,  some
can be very dark.  Or a Thayer’s gull with pigment issues. The chest looks
velvety.  I can see HERG and Thayer’s in there but also LBBG in the solid
coverts. Maybe a Thayers X LBBG hybrid? Very cool.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Luis Gordinho 
wrote:

> Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album
> below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also have
> a look at the captions)
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650331075457  For those
> of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story
On the 14thof
> December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13
> photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria
> beach,Almada (SetĂșbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed
> mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen
> (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What
> stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the
> plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks, more
> evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird seamed
> to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide, 
2.nd 

> Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as
> American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever
> uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it had
> no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely excluding 
the 

> remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made a
> mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went by
> and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek
> Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on
> January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while
> fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several points
> seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the inner
> “hands” in particular looks fatal but
In addition, I thinkthe bird does
> have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
>    - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
>    - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
>    - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear
> coverts for such adark bird.
> So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G would
> be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)
 (*
> 
http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro 

> Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and
> axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and
> undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro
> LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by
> December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail feathers
> visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in
> juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d
> still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird
> (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos of
> equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here
> http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg1cy/lbbg1cynovdec.htmlAlso, Frédéric
> Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis)
> via Flickrjust now:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16468475306Thanks Fred!Any ideas?
> Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, LuĂ­s G
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Fwd: [nysbirds-l] POSSIBLE Thayer's Gull on Central Park Reservoir
From: Peter Post <pwpost AT NYC.RR.COM>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 20:35:01 -0500
This should have been included with my last post. Sorry.

Peter

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Kai 
> Date: February 7, 2015 6:37:03 PM EST
> To: Brian Whipple , NYSBirds  l AT cornell.edu>, eBirdsNYC 
> Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] POSSIBLE Thayer's Gull on Central Park  
> Reservoir
> Reply-To: Kai 
>
> Photos of the gull are here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ 
> 123166253 AT N05/sets/72157650700330615/
> One of the photos shows the bird with wings outstretched, showing a  
> Thayer's-like wingtip pattern above (black on the outer webs of  
> primaries) and below (small amount of black visible around edges).   
> The other two photos show the bird sitting - one with a Herring  
> Gull in the foreground for comparison.  The legs were a deep pink  
> and the head had a fair amount of streaking (although some of the  
> Herring Gulls present showed these characteristics as well).  The  
> rounded head and relatively small-looking bill, combined with the  
> pattern on the wingtips, seem like the best reasons to call this a  
> Thayer's.  Would be great to hear what others think.
>
> Brian Whipple, Drew Haluska and I spent over an hour trying to  
> relocate the gull this afternoon, with no luck. This bird was seen  
> at the southwestern end of the reservoir, where a patch of open  
> water was drawing a lot of gulls closer to the edge of the  
> reservoir than they normally would be.
>
> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 16:17:37 -0500
> Subject: Re:[nysbirds-l] POSSIBLE Thayer's Gull on Central Park  
> Reservoir
> From: brian.whipple AT gmail.com
> To: NYSbirds-L AT cornell.edu; ebirdsnyc AT yahoogroups.com
>
> Sorry, the suspect is an ADULT gull.
> On Feb 7, 2015 3:54 PM, "Brian Whipple"   
> wrote:
> Kai Sheffield and I are looking at gulls on the CP Reservoir,  
> searching for one that Kai spotted earlier and thinks may have been  
> a possible Thayer's Gull.
> He has photos, but we can't attach because they're on a point-and- 
> click camera.
> We know weird Herring Gulls can look like Thayer's. We are NOT  
> calling this a Thayer's, but if anyone nearby has a scope and wants  
> to come look, please do, and let us know.
> --
> NYSbirds-L List Info:
> Welcome and Basics
> Rules and Information
> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
> Archives:
> The Mail Archive
> Surfbirds
> BirdingOnThe.Net
> Please submit your observations to eBird!
> --
> --
> NYSbirds-L List Info:
> Welcome and Basics
> Rules and Information
> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
> Archives:
> The Mail Archive
> Surfbirds
> BirdingOnThe.Net
> Please submit your observations to eBird!
> --


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Any opinions on this gull
From: Peter Post <pwpost AT NYC.RR.COM>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 20:06:53 -0500
Any opinions on the ID of this gull? Thayer's is extremely rare in SE  
NYS.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/123166253 AT N05/sets/72157650700330615/

Inexlicabily, no one on the NYS Listserv has offered an opinion.

Thanks,

Peter

Peter Post
New York City
pwpost AT nyc.rr.com





Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 15:13:54 -0800
Luis

 A very quick comment. This is absolutely not a California Gull, that you can 
take off the list. Various reasons why, major ones being the bill pattern and 
tail pattern. My thought based on structure and plumage is that it is an 
unusually dark Lesser Black-backed Gull. If I saw this in North America, I 
would be puzzled but identify it as that. 


Regards, 
Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Luis Gordinho 

Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 2:15 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?

Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album below 
and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also have a look at 
the captions)https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650331075457 For 
those of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story
On the 14thof 
December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13 photos)what 
looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria beach,Almada (SetĂșbal, 
Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed mostly of 1stgeneration 
(juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were 
also visible (40+ maybe).What stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very 
dark brown colour of the plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, 
belly and flanks, more evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more 
detail, this bird seamed to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of 
Collins Bird Guide, 2.nd Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Unde! 

 rtail: seldomif ever as densely barred as American Herring Gull”“Breast: 
sometimesdark but rarely if ever uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird 
in flight, it was clear it had no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, 
thereby completely excluding the remote possibility of a very smalland elegant 
female American HG.I made a mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this 
bird, but time went by and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up 
about Derek Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) 
on January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while fantasying 
about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several points seem wrong for 
Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the inner “hands” in 
particular looks fatal but
In addition, I thinkthe bird does have several 
other unusual points for 1cy LBBG: 

   - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
   - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
 - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear coverts for 
such adark bird. 

So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G would be 
1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)
 
(*http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro 
Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and 
axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and undertail 
coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro LBBG 
featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by December);Very 
little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail feathers visible on the 
upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in juvenile).I guess that 
thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d still like to hear your 
comments.I think this is a very interesting bird (not an easy thing for a LBBG 
to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos of equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t 
find any,e.g. here http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg1cy/lbbg1cynovdec.htmlAlso, 
Frédéric J! 

 iguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis) via 
Flickrjust now: https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16468475306Thanks 
Fred!Any ideas? Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, LuĂ­s G 

  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
From: Luis Gordinho <lgordinho AT YAHOO.CO.UK>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 22:14:35 +0000
Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album below 
and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also have a look at 
the 
captions)https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/sets/72157650331075457  For 
those of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story
On the 14thof 
December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13 photos)what 
looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria beach,Almada (SetĂșbal, 
Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed mostly of 1stgeneration 
(juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were 
also visible (40+ maybe).What stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very 
dark brown colour of the plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, 
belly and flanks, more evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more 
detail, this bird seamed to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of 
Collins Bird Guide, 2.nd Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as 
densely barred as American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely 
if ever uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear 
it had no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely 
excluding the remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American 
HG.I made a mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time 
went by and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek 
Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on January 
the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while fantasying about 
1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several points seem wrong for 
Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the inner “hands” in 
particular looks fatal but
In addition, I thinkthe bird does have several 
other unusual points for 1cy LBBG: 

   - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
   - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
 - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear coverts for 
such adark bird. 

So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G would be 
1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)
 
(*http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro 
Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and 
axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and undertail 
coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro LBBG 
featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by December);Very 
little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail feathers visible on the 
upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in juvenile).I guess that 
thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d still like to hear your 
comments.I think this is a very interesting bird (not an easy thing for a LBBG 
to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos of equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t 
find any,e.g. here http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg1cy/lbbg1cynovdec.htmlAlso, 
Frédéric Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis 
atlantis) via Flickrjust now: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lgordinho/16468475306Thanks Fred!Any ideas? 
Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, LuĂ­s G 

  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Subspecies by state?
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 04:33:59 +0000
Echoing the sentiments of Jerry and Kevin,

Gabrielson and Jewett's "Birds of Oregon" (1940) is such a book. It has 
entertained me for many hours over the course of my birding lifetime. I also 
remember poking through Forbush's "Birds of Massachusetts and other New England 
States" about 35 years ago and marveling at all the information about 
subspecies in that book. I think it was in that book that I encountered my 
all-time favorite common bird name...the Brotherly-Love Greenlet (Philadelphia 
Vireo). 


I remain fascinated by attempts to better understand the identification and 
distribution of various Orange-crowned Warbler, Fox Sparrow, and White-crowned 
Sparrow populations. More recently, juncos have captured my attention. There 
are several lifetimes of work herein, but at least I know that I will never get 
bored. 


A great modern source of subspecies info is Birds of North America Online. It 
requires a subscription, but it is worthwhile and updated regularly. I consult 
it nearly every week for some reason. I'm actually on my way there now to do 
some research about Hooded Oriole plumage progression. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR 




 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Subspecies by state?
From: Reid Martin <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 22:05:59 -0600
Did I miss the post where someone mentioned the Clements 6.9 list/spreadsheet? 
It is downloadable from Cornell, and I use it regularly to check on ssp. range. 

Having said that, it is for the world, but it is easy to search for the species 
you are interested in. The other issue is accuracy; I have found a few errors 
in range - but Cornell are happy to accrue corrections for the next edition in 
July(?) of this year... 


Martin
---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com





On Feb 9, 2015, at Feb 9, 6:36 PM, Tangren, Gerald Vernon wrote:

> The difference is few people do natural history as it was done in the late
> 19th century and first half of the 20th century.
> 
> ‹
> Jerry 
> East Wenatchee, WA
> 
> On 2/9/15, 3:22 PM, "Kevin J. McGowan"  wrote:
> 
>> Wayne, glad you brought this up. State bird books from the 20th century,
>> even (especially?) old ones, have a ton of information that birders
>> should know about. Ornithologists in the 1950s were very concerned about
>> which forms of each species occurred in each state. Check those old books
>> out. You might be surprised.
>> 
>> Kevin
>> 
>> 
>> Kevin J. McGowan
>> Ithaca, NY 14850
>> Kjm2 AT cornell.edu
>> 607-254-2452
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Wayne Hoffman
>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 5:37 PM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?
>> 
>> Hi - 
>> 
>> A lot of states have "Birds of..."  state books that address subspecies
>> to some extent - generally the older the book the more detail on
>> subspecies is included.  I do not know of a compendium that has pulled
>> these together for the whole country, since the 1957 AOU Checklist.
>> 
>> The AOU Checklist committee has not addressed subspecies in any
>> comprehensive way for over half a century, so the taxonomic underpinnings
>> of such an undertaking are now pretty shaky.  A lot of papers have been
>> published since then lumping subspecies, and a lesser number naming new
>> subspecies, but the status of all of these changes has to be considered
>> provisional (or worse) in the absence of an overall treatment.
>> 
>> In the 58 years since the 5th edition of the AOU Checklist appeared, a
>> lot of discussion has taken place over the definition of, criteria for,
>> and even advisability of having, recognized subspecies.
>> 
>> My own personal opinion is that there is a lot wrong with the subspecies
>> classifications in the 1957 checklist, and in Peters' multivolume
>> classification, but that without subspecies we lose a needed vocabulary
>> for discussing geographic variation, and also for conservation work.
>> 
>> Currently I work in salmon conservation.  Subspecies are not generally
>> recognized in salmon, and in their absence the regulatory agencies have
>> erected a substitute subdivision of species into "Evolutionarily
>> Significant Units" (ESUs) to have a basis for assessing the viability
>> salmon in geographic  subsets of the species' ranges.
>> 
>> Wayne
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Frank Haas
>> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 7:08 AM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?
>> 
>> Has anyone put together a "Subspecies by State" list?
>> 
>> In other words, a list of which subspecies one would expect to find in a
>> particular state. Which subspecies of Hose Wren, Warbling Vireo, etc.?
>> 
>> Clement's lists the regions for subspecies, but they are very general. I
>> am looking for something more specific.
>> 
>> Frank
>> 
>> 
>> Frank Haas   fbhaas AT ptd.net   Churchtown, PA
>> 
>>        "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing."
>>                www.FranklinHaas.com
>> 
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>> 
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>> 
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2015.0.5645 / Virus Database: 4284/9086 - Release Date: 02/09/15
>> 
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Subspecies by state?
From: "Tangren, Gerald Vernon" <tangren AT WSU.EDU>
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 00:36:57 +0000
The difference is few people do natural history as it was done in the late
19th century and first half of the 20th century.

‹
Jerry 
East Wenatchee, WA

On 2/9/15, 3:22 PM, "Kevin J. McGowan"  wrote:

>Wayne, glad you brought this up. State bird books from the 20th century,
>even (especially?) old ones, have a ton of information that birders
>should know about. Ornithologists in the 1950s were very concerned about
>which forms of each species occurred in each state. Check those old books
>out. You might be surprised.
>
>Kevin
>
>
>Kevin J. McGowan
>Ithaca, NY 14850
>Kjm2 AT cornell.edu
>607-254-2452
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Wayne Hoffman
>Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 5:37 PM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?
>
>Hi - 
>
>A lot of states have "Birds of..."  state books that address subspecies
>to some extent - generally the older the book the more detail on
>subspecies is included.  I do not know of a compendium that has pulled
>these together for the whole country, since the 1957 AOU Checklist.
>
>The AOU Checklist committee has not addressed subspecies in any
>comprehensive way for over half a century, so the taxonomic underpinnings
>of such an undertaking are now pretty shaky.  A lot of papers have been
>published since then lumping subspecies, and a lesser number naming new
>subspecies, but the status of all of these changes has to be considered
>provisional (or worse) in the absence of an overall treatment.
>
>In the 58 years since the 5th edition of the AOU Checklist appeared, a
>lot of discussion has taken place over the definition of, criteria for,
>and even advisability of having, recognized subspecies.
>
>My own personal opinion is that there is a lot wrong with the subspecies
>classifications in the 1957 checklist, and in Peters' multivolume
>classification, but that without subspecies we lose a needed vocabulary
>for discussing geographic variation, and also for conservation work.
>
>Currently I work in salmon conservation.  Subspecies are not generally
>recognized in salmon, and in their absence the regulatory agencies have
>erected a substitute subdivision of species into "Evolutionarily
>Significant Units" (ESUs) to have a basis for assessing the viability
>salmon in geographic  subsets of the species' ranges.
>
>Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Frank Haas
>Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 7:08 AM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?
>
>Has anyone put together a "Subspecies by State" list?
>
>In other words, a list of which subspecies one would expect to find in a
>particular state. Which subspecies of Hose Wren, Warbling Vireo, etc.?
>
>Clement's lists the regions for subspecies, but they are very general. I
>am looking for something more specific.
>
>Frank
>
>
>Frank Haas   fbhaas AT ptd.net   Churchtown, PA
>
>         "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing."
>                 www.FranklinHaas.com
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>-----
>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>Version: 2015.0.5645 / Virus Database: 4284/9086 - Release Date: 02/09/15
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Subspecies by state?
From: Steve Sosensky <steve AT SOSENSKY.COM>
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 16:14:35 -0800
Subspecies range maps for some species are in the back of the 6th edition of
the NGS guide.

 

On 2/9/2015 2:37:17 PM, whoffman AT peak.org wrote: 
> A lot of states have "Birds of..."  state books that address subspecies to

> some extent - generally the older the book the more detail on subspecies
is 
> included.  I do not know of a compendium that has pulled these together
for 
> the whole country, since the 1957 AOU Checklist. 

 

 

Good Birding,

 

Steve Sosensky

Aliso Viejo CA

818-522-5261 (Cell)

 

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Subspecies by state?
From: Wayne Hoffman <whoffman AT PEAK.ORG>
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 16:14:42 -0800
Hi - 

Of course - how could I forget Pyle?  I guess because I use it mostly to
look up molt stuff, and for measurements.  
So incredibly much info coded so tightly into those two volumes...

 Wayne


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Tony Leukering
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 2:51 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?

 All:

Actually, Pyle (1997, 2008) dealt with subspecies on a large scale and
occurrence in individual provinces/states can be inferred reasonably well.
However, I would use that only as the starting point for an effort to
provide a state-by-state and province-by-province occurrence listing of
subspecies.

And, Wayne, I agree whole-heartedly with you about retention of subspecies,
about many named forms and for having a stand on which to hang one's hat
when discussing geographic variation.  Pyle (1997, 2008) also did some bit
of culling of named subspecies, but a whole-scale, rigorous effort is
definitely needed.

Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Subspecies by state?
From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2 AT CORNELL.EDU>
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 23:22:45 +0000
Wayne, glad you brought this up. State bird books from the 20th century, even 
(especially?) old ones, have a ton of information that birders should know 
about. Ornithologists in the 1950s were very concerned about which forms of 
each species occurred in each state. Check those old books out. You might be 
surprised. 


Kevin


Kevin J. McGowan
Ithaca, NY 14850
Kjm2 AT cornell.edu
607-254-2452



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Wayne Hoffman 

Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 5:37 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?

Hi - 

A lot of states have "Birds of..." state books that address subspecies to some 
extent - generally the older the book the more detail on subspecies is 
included. I do not know of a compendium that has pulled these together for the 
whole country, since the 1957 AOU Checklist. 


The AOU Checklist committee has not addressed subspecies in any comprehensive 
way for over half a century, so the taxonomic underpinnings of such an 
undertaking are now pretty shaky. A lot of papers have been published since 
then lumping subspecies, and a lesser number naming new subspecies, but the 
status of all of these changes has to be considered provisional (or worse) in 
the absence of an overall treatment. 


In the 58 years since the 5th edition of the AOU Checklist appeared, a lot of 
discussion has taken place over the definition of, criteria for, and even 
advisability of having, recognized subspecies. 


My own personal opinion is that there is a lot wrong with the subspecies 
classifications in the 1957 checklist, and in Peters' multivolume 
classification, but that without subspecies we lose a needed vocabulary for 
discussing geographic variation, and also for conservation work. 


Currently I work in salmon conservation. Subspecies are not generally 
recognized in salmon, and in their absence the regulatory agencies have erected 
a substitute subdivision of species into "Evolutionarily Significant Units" 
(ESUs) to have a basis for assessing the viability salmon in geographic subsets 
of the species' ranges. 


Wayne





-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Frank Haas 

Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 7:08 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?

Has anyone put together a "Subspecies by State" list?

In other words, a list of which subspecies one would expect to find in a 
particular state. Which subspecies of Hose Wren, Warbling Vireo, etc.? 


Clement's lists the regions for subspecies, but they are very general. I am 
looking for something more specific. 


Frank


Frank Haas   fbhaas AT ptd.net   Churchtown, PA

         "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing."
                 www.FranklinHaas.com

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5645 / Virus Database: 4284/9086 - Release Date: 02/09/15

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Subspecies by state?
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 17:50:53 -0500
 All:

Actually, Pyle (1997, 2008) dealt with subspecies on a large scale and 
occurrence in individual provinces/states can be inferred reasonably well. 
However, I would use that only as the starting point for an effort to provide a 
state-by-state and province-by-province occurrence listing of subspecies. 


And, Wayne, I agree whole-heartedly with you about retention of subspecies, 
about many named forms and for having a stand on which to hang one's hat when 
discussing geographic variation. Pyle (1997, 2008) also did some bit of culling 
of named subspecies, but a whole-scale, rigorous effort is definitely needed. 


Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Hoffman 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Mon, Feb 9, 2015 5:39 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?


Hi - 

A lot of states have "Birds of..."  state books that address subspecies to
some extent - generally the older the book the more detail on subspecies is
included.  I do not know of a compendium that has pulled these together for
the whole country, since the 1957 AOU Checklist.

The AOU Checklist committee has not addressed subspecies in any
comprehensive way for over half a century, so the taxonomic underpinnings of
such an undertaking are now pretty shaky.  A lot of papers have been
published since then lumping subspecies, and a lesser number naming new
subspecies, but the status of all of these changes has to be considered
provisional (or worse) in the absence of an overall treatment.

In the 58 years since the 5th edition of the AOU Checklist appeared, a lot
of discussion has taken place over the definition of, criteria for, and even
advisability of having, recognized subspecies.

My own personal opinion is that there is a lot wrong with the subspecies
classifications in the 1957 checklist, and in Peters' multivolume
classification, but that without subspecies we lose a needed vocabulary for
discussing geographic variation, and also for conservation work.

Currently I work in salmon conservation.  Subspecies are not generally
recognized in salmon, and in their absence the regulatory agencies have
erected a substitute subdivision of species into "Evolutionarily Significant
Units" (ESUs) to have a basis for assessing the viability salmon in
geographic  subsets of the species' ranges.

Wayne





-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Frank Haas
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 7:08 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?

Has anyone put together a "Subspecies by State" list?

In other words, a list of which subspecies one would expect to find in a
particular state. Which subspecies of Hose Wren, Warbling Vireo, etc.?

Clement's lists the regions for subspecies, but they are very general. I am
looking for something more specific.

Frank


Frank Haas   fbhaas AT ptd.net   Churchtown, PA

         "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing."
                 www.FranklinHaas.com

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Subspecies by state?
From: Wayne Hoffman <whoffman AT PEAK.ORG>
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 14:37:17 -0800
Hi - 

A lot of states have "Birds of..."  state books that address subspecies to
some extent - generally the older the book the more detail on subspecies is
included.  I do not know of a compendium that has pulled these together for
the whole country, since the 1957 AOU Checklist.

The AOU Checklist committee has not addressed subspecies in any
comprehensive way for over half a century, so the taxonomic underpinnings of
such an undertaking are now pretty shaky.  A lot of papers have been
published since then lumping subspecies, and a lesser number naming new
subspecies, but the status of all of these changes has to be considered
provisional (or worse) in the absence of an overall treatment.

In the 58 years since the 5th edition of the AOU Checklist appeared, a lot
of discussion has taken place over the definition of, criteria for, and even
advisability of having, recognized subspecies.

My own personal opinion is that there is a lot wrong with the subspecies
classifications in the 1957 checklist, and in Peters' multivolume
classification, but that without subspecies we lose a needed vocabulary for
discussing geographic variation, and also for conservation work.

Currently I work in salmon conservation.  Subspecies are not generally
recognized in salmon, and in their absence the regulatory agencies have
erected a substitute subdivision of species into "Evolutionarily Significant
Units" (ESUs) to have a basis for assessing the viability salmon in
geographic  subsets of the species' ranges.

Wayne





-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Frank Haas
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 7:08 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?

Has anyone put together a "Subspecies by State" list?

In other words, a list of which subspecies one would expect to find in a
particular state. Which subspecies of Hose Wren, Warbling Vireo, etc.?

Clement's lists the regions for subspecies, but they are very general. I am
looking for something more specific.

Frank


Frank Haas   fbhaas AT ptd.net   Churchtown, PA

         "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing."
                 www.FranklinHaas.com

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Frigatebird in Oregon - feedback solicited
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 13:38:50 -0800
Hi Jay -

We've concluded (California Bird Records Committee) that a bird with 
an entirely white head but no rufous is probably acceptable as a 
Magnificent. Greats appear to retain rufous until at least the stage 
in which black starts appearing in the head, at 3-4 years of age. The 
center-breast area is often the last place for vestiges of rufous 
(perhaps in combination with bleaching in the crown and head). I 
agree your bird looks to be 2-4 years of age, based on no black in 
the head yet but loss of the black "vest" to the underparts.

Peter

At 07:30 PM 2/7/2015, Jay Withgott wrote:
>Hello all --
>
>I'm seeking feedback on a frigatebird found yesterday along the 
>northern Oregon coast. Its age (apparent "2nd-stage" or "Basic 2" 
>immature?) makes ID difficult, and the winter seasonality suggests 
>that we should not automatically assume Magnificent. I and a second 
>observer (Mike Patterson) have consulted Steve Howell's 1994 paper 
>in Birding on Magnificent and Great Frigatebirds, as well as the 
>book "Rare Birds of North America", Steve Mlodinow's 1998 article, 
>and standard field guides. We have our thoughts and leanings but 
>would appreciate feedback from those with more experience.
>
>Suboptimal (the bird was distant, the images are zoomed) photos and 
>videos are posted at a Picasa site here:

>https://picasaweb.google.com/114481402865976904547/FrigatebirdAtSeasideCove?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCMaghLjFuZbkDg&feat=directlink 

>
>
>The 4 videos are also posted on YouTube here:
>http://youtu.be/xQyHkXQm1yU
>
>http://youtu.be/LVG2aMtyHzU
>
>http://youtu.be/98h5wurPCRk
>
>http://youtu.be/hKqhP-WQ1YE
>
>
>If you are having trouble getting the High-Defintition versions or 
>reading the captions on the Picasa site (which seems often to 
>happen), you may wish to try the YouTube versions.
>
>HOWEVER, I feel some of these images may be misleading in appearing 
>to show dark color on the head, possibly from distortion/pixelation 
>due to distance. Our clear impression in the field was of 
>essentially an all-white head.  We also did not notice any 
>cinnamon/rusty/tawny color on the throat or breast.
>
>I wish the images were better, but this is what we have.  THANKS 
>very much for any feedback anyone can provide,
>
>Jay Withgott
>Portland, Oregon
>
>
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Subspecies by state?
From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 13:47:26 -0500
Here are sources for lists of subspecies in Ontario and Canada.

ONTARIO: The subspecies in Ontario are listed after each species in the
Annotated Checklist of the Birds of Ontario by Ross D. James (1991). Revised
Edition. Published by the Royal Ontario Museum, Toronto.

CANADA: The subspecies in Canada are listed after each species in The Birds
of Canada by W. Earl Godfrey (1986). Revised Edition. National Museums of
Canada, Ottawa.

I compiled a list of the field recognizable subspecies and morphs in Ontario
first published 1991 in Ontario Birds and updated online in 2006. See link.
http://www.ofo.ca/site/page/view/articles.subspecies

I also compiled a list of the field recognizable subspecies and morphs in
Canada published in 1997 in Birders Journal 6(2): 76-89. See link.
http://jeaniron.ca/2008/canadian%20bird%20forms.pdf

The recognizable (identifiable) forms lists were done to encourage birders
to go beyond species in their interests and identifications. I'm happy to
see an increasing interest in subspecies and morphs, and eBird is collecting
information on subspecies.

Ron Pittaway
Toronto, Ontario



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Frank Haas
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 10:08 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?

Has anyone put together a "Subspecies by State" list?

In other words, a list of which subspecies one would expect to find in a
particular state. Which subspecies of Hose Wren, Warbling Vireo, etc.?

Clement's lists the regions for subspecies, but they are very general. I am
looking for something more specific.

Frank


Frank Haas   fbhaas AT ptd.net   Churchtown, PA

         "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing."
                 www.FranklinHaas.com

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Subspecies by state?
From: Frank Haas <fbhaas AT PTD.NET>
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 10:08:00 -0500
Has anyone put together a "Subspecies by State" list?

In other words, a list of which subspecies one would expect to find 
in a particular state. Which subspecies of Hose Wren, Warbling Vireo, etc.?

Clement's lists the regions for subspecies, but they are very 
general. I am looking for something more specific.

Frank


Frank Haas   fbhaas AT ptd.net   Churchtown, PA

         "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing."
                 www.FranklinHaas.com

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Frigatebird in Oregon - feedback solicited
From: Jay Withgott <withgott AT COMCAST.NET>
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 19:30:27 -0800
Hello all -- 

I'm seeking feedback on a frigatebird found yesterday along the northern Oregon 
coast. Its age (apparent "2nd-stage" or "Basic 2" immature?) makes ID 
difficult, and the winter seasonality suggests that we should not automatically 
assume Magnificent. I and a second observer (Mike Patterson) have consulted 
Steve Howell's 1994 paper in Birding on Magnificent and Great Frigatebirds, as 
well as the book "Rare Birds of North America", Steve Mlodinow's 1998 article, 
and standard field guides. We have our thoughts and leanings but would 
appreciate feedback from those with more experience. 


Suboptimal (the bird was distant, the images are zoomed) photos and videos are 
posted at a Picasa site here: 


https://picasaweb.google.com/114481402865976904547/FrigatebirdAtSeasideCove?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCMaghLjFuZbkDg&feat=directlink 



The 4 videos are also posted on YouTube here:
http://youtu.be/xQyHkXQm1yU

http://youtu.be/LVG2aMtyHzU

http://youtu.be/98h5wurPCRk

http://youtu.be/hKqhP-WQ1YE


If you are having trouble getting the High-Defintition versions or reading the 
captions on the Picasa site (which seems often to happen), you may wish to try 
the YouTube versions. 


HOWEVER, I feel some of these images may be misleading in appearing to show 
dark color on the head, possibly from distortion/pixelation due to distance. 
Our clear impression in the field was of essentially an all-white head. We also 
did not notice any cinnamon/rusty/tawny color on the throat or breast. 


I wish the images were better, but this is what we have. THANKS very much for 
any feedback anyone can provide, 


Jay Withgott
Portland, Oregon



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Posted for Floyd Hayes: Raptor in Tobago
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 20:54:43 -0500
 All:

I agree with John Sterling; it looks like a pale Red-tailed Hawk. However, 
there are a few odd aspects that give me pause. The eyes are pale, a feature of 
juveniles in Buteo species that don't have dark (or darkish) eyes as 
youngsters. The cere is also a sickly greenish color, another feature of 
juveniles. The apparently very pale tail from below is typical of Red-tailed 
Hawks. The relative lack of markings on the underparts on a bird in the U.S. or 
Canada would indicate either borealis or fuertesi, as all other subspecies 
typically show extensive markings below (as do many borealis). So, the bits 
that seem odd are that even in individuals of borealis that show little in the 
way of underparts markings as adults still tend to have obvious and blackish 
belly bands as juveniles. I don't know fuertesi well enough to know the range 
of variation in juveniles in this feature. I wonder what juvenile costaricensis 
look like, but imagine them as fairly heavily marked below. 


So, what is this bird, if it's a Red-tailed Hawk, doing on Tobago?! My 
understanding is that costaricensis (the southernmost breeding form) is 
sedentary (and isn't known from east/south of western Panama) and I believe the 
same is true of fuertesi. Obviously, borealis is a fairly long-distance 
migrant, but Red-taileds really don't like water crossings (although, there are 
island subspecies; go figure), and without going all the way around the Gulf of 
Mexico, getting to Tobago would be a doozy of a water crossing. Additionally, 
borealis does not get past southern Mexico; migrant Red-taileds south of there 
are referable to calurus. I don't know what the two Caribbean subspecies 
(solitudinus and nominate) look like; perhaps some headway could be made there. 


Regardless, 'tis an interesting bird.

Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Kratter 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Wed, Jan 28, 2015 8:02 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Posted for Floyd Hayes: Raptor in Tobago


Posted for Floyd Hayes:


	Unidentified Raptor in Tobago
These photos are posted for comments by birders on the ID Frontiers listserve.


https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1040835469264877.1073741873.100000153002720&type=1&l=b5bebea887 


Andy Kratter
Gainesville, FL

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Brown-capped Rosy-Finches in Utah
From: Tim Avery <western.tanager AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 02:38:58 -0700
Thanks for your response Tony.

As per my comment on hybridization, I pulled that right from Sibley (first
edition p. 527 in the footnotes), so I'm not sure where that overlap in
breeding would occur as you mentioned--aside from possibly Utah? Where BCRF
has never been recorded breeding providing the same issue...

Others have shared the same opinion on hybrids so I guess we can pretty
safely take that off the table.

--

Cheers
Tim

mwbirdco.com
timaverybirding.com
utahbirders.com
On Jan 25, 2015 12:00 AM, "Tony Leukering"  wrote:

>  Hey Tim:
>
> It's not often that rosies come up for discussion on this venue, so I
> think you for this!
>
> First off, though it has a different focus, a paper on odd-plumaged
> Brown-cappeds that can shed some light on the UT birds can be found here:
>
> http://cobirds.org/CFO/ColoradoBirds/InTheScope/29.pdf
>
> Second, I wonder what your source for "I know Black and Brown-capped do
> hybridize where they overlap" is.  Brown-capped Rosy-Finch is virtually a
> Colorado breeding endemic (the Wyoming and New Mexico breeding populations
> are extremely restricted and small) and the state has no records of Black
> Rosy-Finch breeding.  Though I don't know what's going on in the La Salle
> Mtns. across the border in Utah, that range seems the most logical place
> for the two species to meet, as one can see the La Salles from Lone Cone,
> which supports breeding Brown-cappeds.
>
> I'm happy with your bird and the first three of the "adults" from Utah as
> Brown-capped Rosy-Finches.  I believe that the fourth "adult" is not a
> Brown-capped and probably not an adult (see discussion of rosy ageing in
> cited paper, above).  The brown of that bird's plumage is identical in tone
> to that of the nearby Gray-crowneds and, despite the odd head pattern, I
> feel that Gray-crowned may be a more comfortable fit for it.
>
> Many immature Brown-cappeds (mostly/all females??) are most notable by
> their lack of field marks, being a very boring grayish-tannish-brown all
> over, often with little in the way of head pattern.  The bird(s) depicted
> in the third and fourth links to "young birds" have distinct gray sides to
> the black crown patch, which, I believe, is outside the range of variation
> for Brown-capped; I'd suggest immature female Black as a more-suitable ID
> (though one might invoke the "h" word, too).  The first two pix seem to be
> of the same individual (and different from the bird(s) in the fourth and
> fifth pix as discerned by less-distinct gray in the crown/superciliary and
> whiter -- vs. pinker -- wing-covert edging) may well be Brown-cappeds, with
> the apparently colder tone and extensive pale fringing to the body plumage
> being, perhaps, the best characters.
>
> Our work color-banding 1000s of rosy-finches in Colorado has produced just
> one recovery (of a Gray-crowned) outside the state (from Wyoming in
> spring).  Our within-Colorado re-sightings and recaptures of banded
> Brown-cappeds have all come from locations in the same ranges in which they
> were banded.  In fact, if it weren't for the large numbers regularly found
> at Sandia Crest, NM (well away from known breeding range), in winter, I'd
> think the species hardly migrated at all, other than the regular
> up-and-downhill movements that we've documented.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
> Tony Leukering
> Largo, FL
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>
> http://aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Avery 
> To: BIRDWG01 
> Sent: Sat, Jan 24, 2015 9:05 pm
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Brown-capped Rosy-Finches in Utah
>
>
> This winter that have been an unprecedented number of reports of
> Brown-capped Rosy-Finches along the Wasatch Front in Salt Lake
> County--prior to this winter the species had never been reported on the
> west edge of the Rockies here--with one report from extreme southeast Utah
> several winters ago, in a location this species is suspected to winter with
> some frequency.  This isn't neccessarily and ID-F type question but the
> information I am seeking seems limited and I can't find any good
> resources--so keep readin if interested.
>
> The reports in Salt Lake vary with as many as 4 apparently "different"
> birders, 2 young, and 2 different adults.  Up till today I was 0 for 4 on
> locating any said birds, but did take shots of what appears to be an
> apparent adult Brown-capped Rosy-Finch:
>
> http://www.timaverybirding.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&
> pid=14560#top_display_media
>
> This bird does appear to be different from the other reported adults from
> the area:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/tsirtalis/15853579017
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/87418551 AT N02/15399395764
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/16080942399
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15649199723
>
> And here are the young birds:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15829108778
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15977695981
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15792249870
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15978852512
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15644914764
>
> I'll hold my full opinion on some of these birds but 1st, is are all these
> Brown-capped?
>
> And if so  I guess one major question I have is in the realm of the H
> word.  Is it possible to rule out any of the species, or a possible hybrid?
>
>
> And what would that even look like?
>
> I know Black and Brown-capped do hybridize where they overlap, and I would
> assume if these birds are Brown-capped they are coming from the northern
> end of the range.
>
> I've kept mum on this locally because my experience with Brown-capped is
> limited to one Colorado encounter nearly 15 years ago. There hasn't been
> much discussion from parties that know the species well, and that may just
> be that no one locally really does.  There has been some input from staff
> at RMBO on one of the birds that thought it was a safe bet for
> Brown-capped.
>
> Given this species patterns of vagrancy northern Utah isn't the most likely
> location for multiple individuals to show up and I think everyone here is a
> little surprised.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Tim
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Bewildering diversity in a flock of "white-cheeked geese"
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd57 AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 10:15:48 -0800
Hello, Birders.
Here's a digiscoped image of a fun, sadistic flock of "white-cheeked geese" 
(Canada and Cackling) from yesterday, Jan. 27, eastern Boulder County, 
Colorado, USA: 

http://tinyurl.com/CanG-CacG-quiz
Could folks help me put names on the 11 birds labeled A-K?
Thanks!

Ted FloydLafayette, Boulder County, Colorado, USA 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Posted for Floyd Hayes: Raptor in Tobago
From: Andy Kratter <kratter AT FLMNH.UFL.EDU>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 12:36:07 -0600
Posted for Floyd Hayes:


	Unidentified Raptor in Tobago
These photos are posted for comments by birders on the ID Frontiers listserve.


https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1040835469264877.1073741873.100000153002720&type=1&l=b5bebea887 


Andy Kratter
Gainesville, FL

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Unidentified Buteo in Tobago (Caribbean)
From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 07:10:54 -0600
Two photos of a Buteo in Tobago (island in the Caribbean) are posted here:


https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1040800869268337.1073741872.100000153002720&type=1&l=8b35f8a62d 


Some of us think it is a species previously unrecorded from Trinidad and
Tobago. Comments would be appreciated.

Floyd Hayes
Angwin, CA, USA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Brown-capped Rosy-Finches in Utah
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 00:52:12 -0500
 Hey Tim:

It's not often that rosies come up for discussion on this venue, so I think you 
for this! 


First off, though it has a different focus, a paper on odd-plumaged 
Brown-cappeds that can shed some light on the UT birds can be found here: 


http://cobirds.org/CFO/ColoradoBirds/InTheScope/29.pdf

Second, I wonder what your source for "I know Black and Brown-capped do 
hybridize where they overlap" is. Brown-capped Rosy-Finch is virtually a 
Colorado breeding endemic (the Wyoming and New Mexico breeding populations are 
extremely restricted and small) and the state has no records of Black 
Rosy-Finch breeding. Though I don't know what's going on in the La Salle Mtns. 
across the border in Utah, that range seems the most logical place for the two 
species to meet, as one can see the La Salles from Lone Cone, which supports 
breeding Brown-cappeds. 


I'm happy with your bird and the first three of the "adults" from Utah as 
Brown-capped Rosy-Finches. I believe that the fourth "adult" is not a 
Brown-capped and probably not an adult (see discussion of rosy ageing in cited 
paper, above). The brown of that bird's plumage is identical in tone to that of 
the nearby Gray-crowneds and, despite the odd head pattern, I feel that 
Gray-crowned may be a more comfortable fit for it. 


Many immature Brown-cappeds (mostly/all females??) are most notable by their 
lack of field marks, being a very boring grayish-tannish-brown all over, often 
with little in the way of head pattern. The bird(s) depicted in the third and 
fourth links to "young birds" have distinct gray sides to the black crown 
patch, which, I believe, is outside the range of variation for Brown-capped; 
I'd suggest immature female Black as a more-suitable ID (though one might 
invoke the "h" word, too). The first two pix seem to be of the same individual 
(and different from the bird(s) in the fourth and fifth pix as discerned by 
less-distinct gray in the crown/superciliary and whiter -- vs. pinker -- 
wing-covert edging) may well be Brown-cappeds, with the apparently colder tone 
and extensive pale fringing to the body plumage being, perhaps, the best 
characters. 


Our work color-banding 1000s of rosy-finches in Colorado has produced just one 
recovery (of a Gray-crowned) outside the state (from Wyoming in spring). Our 
within-Colorado re-sightings and recaptures of banded Brown-cappeds have all 
come from locations in the same ranges in which they were banded. In fact, if 
it weren't for the large numbers regularly found at Sandia Crest, NM (well away 
from known breeding range), in winter, I'd think the species hardly migrated at 
all, other than the regular up-and-downhill movements that we've documented. 


Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Avery 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Sat, Jan 24, 2015 9:05 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Brown-capped Rosy-Finches in Utah


This winter that have been an unprecedented number of reports of
Brown-capped Rosy-Finches along the Wasatch Front in Salt Lake
County--prior to this winter the species had never been reported on the
west edge of the Rockies here--with one report from extreme southeast Utah
several winters ago, in a location this species is suspected to winter with
some frequency.  This isn't neccessarily and ID-F type question but the
information I am seeking seems limited and I can't find any good
resources--so keep readin if interested.

The reports in Salt Lake vary with as many as 4 apparently "different"
birders, 2 young, and 2 different adults.  Up till today I was 0 for 4 on
locating any said birds, but did take shots of what appears to be an
apparent adult Brown-capped Rosy-Finch:

http://www.timaverybirding.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&
pid=14560#top_display_media

This bird does appear to be different from the other reported adults from
the area:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tsirtalis/15853579017
https://www.flickr.com/photos/87418551 AT N02/15399395764
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/16080942399
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15649199723

And here are the young birds:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15829108778
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15977695981
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15792249870
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15978852512
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15644914764

I'll hold my full opinion on some of these birds but 1st, is are all these
Brown-capped?

And if so  I guess one major question I have is in the realm of the H
word.  Is it possible to rule out any of the species, or a possible hybrid?


And what would that even look like?

I know Black and Brown-capped do hybridize where they overlap, and I would
assume if these birds are Brown-capped they are coming from the northern
end of the range.

I've kept mum on this locally because my experience with Brown-capped is
limited to one Colorado encounter nearly 15 years ago. There hasn't been
much discussion from parties that know the species well, and that may just
be that no one locally really does.  There has been some input from staff
at RMBO on one of the birds that thought it was a safe bet for Brown-capped.

Given this species patterns of vagrancy northern Utah isn't the most likely
location for multiple individuals to show up and I think everyone here is a
little surprised.

Thanks in advance,

Tim

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Brown-capped Rosy-Finches in Utah
From: Tim Avery <western.tanager AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 19:01:16 -0700
This winter that have been an unprecedented number of reports of
Brown-capped Rosy-Finches along the Wasatch Front in Salt Lake
County--prior to this winter the species had never been reported on the
west edge of the Rockies here--with one report from extreme southeast Utah
several winters ago, in a location this species is suspected to winter with
some frequency.  This isn't neccessarily and ID-F type question but the
information I am seeking seems limited and I can't find any good
resources--so keep readin if interested.

The reports in Salt Lake vary with as many as 4 apparently "different"
birders, 2 young, and 2 different adults.  Up till today I was 0 for 4 on
locating any said birds, but did take shots of what appears to be an
apparent adult Brown-capped Rosy-Finch:

http://www.timaverybirding.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&
pid=14560#top_display_media

This bird does appear to be different from the other reported adults from
the area:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tsirtalis/15853579017
https://www.flickr.com/photos/87418551 AT N02/15399395764
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/16080942399
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15649199723

And here are the young birds:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15829108778
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15977695981
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15792249870
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15978852512
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bryanto/15644914764

I'll hold my full opinion on some of these birds but 1st, is are all these
Brown-capped?

And if so  I guess one major question I have is in the realm of the H
word.  Is it possible to rule out any of the species, or a possible hybrid?


And what would that even look like?

I know Black and Brown-capped do hybridize where they overlap, and I would
assume if these birds are Brown-capped they are coming from the northern
end of the range.

I've kept mum on this locally because my experience with Brown-capped is
limited to one Colorado encounter nearly 15 years ago. There hasn't been
much discussion from parties that know the species well, and that may just
be that no one locally really does.  There has been some input from staff
at RMBO on one of the birds that thought it was a safe bet for Brown-capped.

Given this species patterns of vagrancy northern Utah isn't the most likely
location for multiple individuals to show up and I think everyone here is a
little surprised.

Thanks in advance,

Tim

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Additional photos of presumed Kelp Gull
From: Ben Coulter <anax_longipes AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 21:49:30 +0000
Hi all,
Regarding the previous post about the putative Kelp Gull from Pennsylvania, Tom 
Moeller now has his photos online as 
well:https://picasaweb.google.com/104676662081154017882/KelpGullInPittsburgh 

 I believe they were taken at the same time and location as Daniel Weeks' 
photos in the last post. 

Cheers,Ben CoulterPittsburgh, PAhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/somatochlora/


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Presumed Kelp Gull-Pennsylvania
From: Ben Coulter <anax_longipes AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 17:13:48 +0000
Hi all,
It's been quite a while since there was a gull identification discussion on 
this list. My apologies in advance to the larophobes. 

On January 17, 2015, I found a large, dark-mantled gull on the Ohio River in 
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania that appears to be a Kelp Gull. It was similar in size 
to American Herring Gulls present (perhaps marginally larger), but probably 
also acceptable for a very small female Great Black-backed. The bird showed a 
clean white head with pale iris and stout yellow bill with reddish-orange 
gonydeal spot, mantle color at least as dark as Great Black-backed, a small 
white mirror on P10, no mirror on P9, wide white trailing edge to secondaries 
and thick white tertial crescent, short primary projection, and long, pale 
yellowish-pink or orangish legs and feet. My primary concern for Kelp Gull was 
that the leg color was not cold greenish-gray or yellow, but showed a hint of 
warmer color. I now suspect this may be within the range of variation for Kelp 
Gull, and some subsequent photos of the bird show more yellowish legs than my 
own photos. 

Commentary on Facebook has generally been supportive of the identification of 
Kelp Gull, but a few people have expressed reservations about the leg color. I 
was hoping to solicit additional opinions, especially by those with extensive 
experience with the species. On or off-list is fine. 

My initial, somewhat distant photos, and a video showing the wing pattern, are 
at:https://www.flickr.com/photos/somatochlora/sets/72157650012667518/ 


Daniel Weeks and Tom Moeller photographed the gull as it preened the following 
day. They were somewhat closer to the bird. Daniel's photos can be viewed 
here:https://www.flickr.com/photos/118371714 AT N07/16127223508/in/photostream/ 


Cheers,Ben CoulterPittsburgh, PAhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/somatochlora/


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: On human cognitive bias, birds and light, and image forensics
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 07:56:26 +0000
All,

 

Members of this list may find some recent postings of interest.  

 

FORENSICS / BIRDS AND LIGHT

Lighting and Avian Anatomy


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/01/field-marks-lighting-and-avian-anatomy.html 


Lighting and Bareparts


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/01/field-marks-lighting-and-bare-parts.html 


Underexposure


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/01/forensics-gaussian-analysis.html 


Artefacts


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/forensics-gaussian-analysis-artefacts.html 


White Balance


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/forensics-gaussian-analysis-white.html 


Lighting and Perspective


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/birds-and-light-lighting-and-perspective.html 


Defocus


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/forensics-gaussian-analysis-defocus.html 


Colour Sample Homogeneity – a technique using the Gaussian Blur Tool


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/colour-sampling-sample-homogenity-and.html 


High Dynamic Range Imaging


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/forensics-hdr-imaging-from-raw.html 


Lighting in Arid and Semiarid Areas


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/birds-and-light-arid-and-semiarid-areas.html 


Lighting in Snow and Ice


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/birds-and-light-on-snow-ice.html 


Winter Solstice


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/winter-solstice-in-ireland.html 


 

HUMAN COGNITIVE BIAS AND BIRD IDENTIFICATION

An Introduction


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/an-introduction-to-human-bias.html 


Distraction

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/human-bias-distraction.html 

Memory Bias

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/human-bias-memory.html

Evaluation Bias

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/human-bias-evaluation.html 

The Self and the Group

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/human-bias-self-group.html

Experimental Bias

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/01/human-bias-experimental.html 


Ten Tips


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2015/01/human-bias-summary-conclusions.html 


 

A QUICK DIGITAL IMAGING REFERENCE GUIDE

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/12/quick-reference-guide.html 

 

 

Regards

 

Mike O’Keeffe

Ireland

 

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/ 

 

 

 

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Black Terns with pink flush, brown belly & subterminal tail bands
From: Mark B Bartosik <MBB22222 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 22:24:48 -0500
Hi All,
 
I was reading with great interest posts about barn swallow winter plumages. 
 Although for some time I plan to post about Black Tern winter plumages 
that are  not matching traits published in scientific papers (and of course 
these in bird  guides as well) I still do not have photos ready yet so I 
decided that I will  start with some aberrant individuals and example of one 
individual that I think  shows pink flush in white feathers. Of course I will 
appreciate opinions and  sharing info on any similar records; or negative 
records (about pink flush) from  those who have opportunity to observe BLTE in 
large numbers.
 
BTW I collect examples of BLTE plumages during different seasons for some  
time now and as they are often showing around here (Texas) in flocks of  
thousands and almost every individual bird shows some differences from others 
it  is easy to grow a huge collection of photos. I lost count long time ago.
 
Here are photo examples of birds I mentioned above:
 
1 - Brown-reddish belly – interesting individual that might have some  
melanin reduction in some parts of black feather tracks. 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158892773
 
2 - Pink flush – some areas of neck and forehead white feathers sport pink  
flush that I believe is related to diet of this particular individual. Many 
 gulls, skimmers and terns sport this phenomena (proven to be diet related; 
e.g.  Elegant Tern) on seasonal basis but some (e.g. Royal Tern, personal 
observation)  only sporadically and only by very few individuals. I am not 
aware of any BLTE  published record nor I ever seen before BLTE with pink 
flash. I was taking under consideration possible stain as well but it seems, to 

me, that this is rather  unlikely and flush from ingested carotenoids could 
be a more plausible cause.  
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158892775
 
3 – Tail (and uppertail coverts) with few rows of bands - HY. I have seen  
some single tail feathers in other birds that shown anomalies (with abnormal 
 pigment distribution) but never something like that (pattern symmetry in 
all  feathers) in bird that ‘normally’ have solid colored tail. As you can 
see both,  tail and uppertail covert feathers are showing the same aberrant 
pattern. 
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/158892777
 

Cheers,
 
Mark B  Bartosik
Houston, Texas
 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html