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Updated on Thursday, July 21 at 03:41 PM EST
The most recently received Mail is at the top.


White-eyed Vireo,©David Sibley

21 Jul Re: I.d. of owl carcass? [Peter Wilkinson ]
20 Jul I.d. of owl carcass? [Don Roberson ]
20 Jul Re: Empid question [Jeff Gilligan ]
20 Jul Re: Empid question [Steve Hampton ]
20 Jul Empid question ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
19 Jul Re: empid ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
12 Jul Re: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA [Steve Hampton ]
12 Jul Re: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA [Martin Reid ]
11 Jul Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA [Steve Hampton ]
3 Jul Re: European Bird ID help [Luis Gordinho ]
3 Jul European Bird ID help [Franklin Haas ]
29 Jun Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Tim Keitt ]
28 Jun Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear []
28 Jun Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Noah Arthur ]
28 Jun Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear ["Collinson, Professor Jon M." ]
28 Jun Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Noah Arthur ]
28 Jun Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear ["Collinson, Professor Jon M." ]
28 Jun Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Noah Arthur ]
28 Jun Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Kai Schraml ]
27 Jun Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Noah Arthur ]
6 Jun Re: Goose sp []
2 Jun Re: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania [Geoff Malosh ]
2 Jun Re: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania [Tony Futcher ]
2 Jun Re: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania ["Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes" ]
2 Jun Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania ["Heveran ." ]
28 May Re: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers [Jason Rogers ]
28 May Re: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers [David Sibley ]
27 May Re: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers [Tim Janzen ]
28 May Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers ["Ken R. Schneider" ]
24 May Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Ryan Brady ]
23 May Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
23 May Re: Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird [Peter Pyle ]
23 May Re: Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird [Joseph Morlan ]
23 May Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
23 May Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird [Peter Pyle ]
23 May Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Brian Sullivan ]
23 May Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
23 May Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Peter Pyle ]
23 May Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin []
23 May Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [David Irons ]
23 May Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Ryan Brady ]
20 May Re: RFI - Yellowthroat ID [Mary Beth Stowe ]
19 May Re: RFI - Yellowthroat ID [Andrew Spencer ]
19 May RFI - Yellowthroat ID [DPratt14 ]
18 May Fwd: RFI - Yellowthroat ID [Andrew Spencer ]
17 May Re: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage? [Martin Reid ]
17 May Re: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage? [Martin Reid ]
17 May Re: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage? [julian hough ]
17 May Re: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage? [julian hough ]
16 May very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage? [JR Rigby ]
16 May A request for images of atricapillus Northern Goshawk [The HH75 ]
12 May Re: Within Range for NA Mew Gull? [Robert O'Brien ]
12 May Within Range for NA Mew Gull? [Matthew G Hunter ]
6 May RFI- Samuel Patten's Dissertation [Amar Ayyash ]
6 May Re: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
6 May Re: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery [Karen Fung ]
6 May Re: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
6 May NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery [Karen Fung ]
4 May Tanager ID [Russ Ruffing ]
2 May Re: NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, BTGreen song [David Irons ]
2 May Re: NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, BTGreen song []
1 May NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, BTGreen song [Karen Fung ]
26 Apr Re: Song Sparrow Subspecies identification [Steve Hampton ]
26 Apr Song Sparrow Subspecies identification [Dan A ]
25 Apr Re: hawk question [Steve Hampton ]
25 Apr Re: hawk question [Brian Sullivan ]
25 Apr hawk question [Steve Hampton ]
20 Apr RFI: Audio recording of Myrtle Warbler in Britain [Ted Floyd ]
15 Apr Odd Harrier in Nebraska [Noah Arthur ]
11 Apr Gestalt Keys - A Possible Solution to Gestalt from Digital Images [Mike O'Keeffe ]
26 Mar Re: Techniques for assessing gestalt from photos [Mike O'Keeffe ]
15 Mar Re: "Interesting" juvenile Petrochelidon Swallow in Nebraska []
12 Mar Techniques for assessing gestalt from photos ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]
10 Mar West Virginia white goose identification [Terry Bronson ]
7 Mar Re: Ross's Goose or hybrid? [David Irons ]
7 Mar Re: Dark-eyed Junco with white wing-bars [David Irons ]

Subject: Re: I.d. of owl carcass?
From: Peter Wilkinson <pjw42 AT WAITROSE.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 21:39:59 +0100
Hi All,

It's a Long-eared Owl. Size, wing formula and look at those lovely
flashes on the outer primaries. The Slater Museum collection shows the
wing differences nicely.

Hoping I haven't missed something!

Peter
Herts, England

On Wed, 2016-07-20 at 19:52 -0700, Don Roberson wrote:
> Do any of you have expertise in identifying an owl carcass? If so, please 
look at the eBird checklist linking to this local post 

> 
> > I collected and cleaned the carcass this morning. The 'long ears' were 
still intact once cleaned. Photos of head, feet, wing, tail added to 
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30744454. 

> > A Long-eard Owl indeed.=20
> > We can only imagine what route it took. Lost and died at sea? Washed down 
the Pajaro River? 

> > 
> 
> > Don Glasco. Seaside, CA
> > =20
> > On Jul 18, 2016, at 05:50 PM, Donald Glasco  =
> wrote:
> > 
> >> We can narrow down to an owl. Lotsa feathers on head covering an all dark 
bill. I looked at many pics of feet; feet/claws match owl better than a hawk. 

> >> Clay Kempf suggests a Great-horned.
> >> There was no suggestion of long ear feathers, ala LEOW or GHOW, but those 
could have been lost. 

> >> 
> >> I measured a wingspan of 36-37".
> >> Per Sibley, wingspans of pertinent owls are
> >> LEOW   36"
> >> SEOW   38"
> >> BAOW  42" (Note: beak color is white or pink or light yellow - not dark)
> >> GHOW  44"
> >> 
> >> No telling where it came from. If it was washed up from the bay, it would 
have died at sea north of Pajaro. Or it could have floated down the Pajaro 
River. It was within 10-15m of the south bank of the river, but 100-125 m from 
shoreline but within high tide wrack line. 

> 
> This carcass collected near the high tide wrack at Pajaro River (which forms 
of the boundary of between Santa Cruz and Monterey Co.). The ebird list is 

> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30744454
> with photos. Collector identifies it as Long-eared -- and maybe it is (but 
that is rare here) -- while I cannot find a clear character to eliminate Great 
Horned Owl (common here). So I could use some actual expertise on the topic. 

> 
> Thanks, Don Roberson
> Monterey County records compiler
> http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: I.d. of owl carcass?
From: Don Roberson <creagrus AT MONTEREYBAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 19:52:18 -0700
Do any of you have expertise in identifying an owl carcass? If so, please look 
at the eBird checklist linking to this local post 


> I collected and cleaned the carcass this morning. The 'long ears' were still 
intact once cleaned. Photos of head, feet, wing, tail added to 
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30744454. 

> A Long-eard Owl indeed.=20
> We can only imagine what route it took. Lost and died at sea? Washed down the 
Pajaro River? 

> 

> Don Glasco. Seaside, CA
> =20
> On Jul 18, 2016, at 05:50 PM, Donald Glasco  =
wrote:
> 
>> We can narrow down to an owl. Lotsa feathers on head covering an all dark 
bill. I looked at many pics of feet; feet/claws match owl better than a hawk. 

>> Clay Kempf suggests a Great-horned.
>> There was no suggestion of long ear feathers, ala LEOW or GHOW, but those 
could have been lost. 

>> 
>> I measured a wingspan of 36-37".
>> Per Sibley, wingspans of pertinent owls are
>> LEOW   36"
>> SEOW   38"
>> BAOW  42" (Note: beak color is white or pink or light yellow - not dark)
>> GHOW  44"
>> 
>> No telling where it came from. If it was washed up from the bay, it would 
have died at sea north of Pajaro. Or it could have floated down the Pajaro 
River. It was within 10-15m of the south bank of the river, but 100-125 m from 
shoreline but within high tide wrack line. 


This carcass collected near the high tide wrack at Pajaro River (which forms of 
the boundary of between Santa Cruz and Monterey Co.). The ebird list is 

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30744454
with photos. Collector identifies it as Long-eared -- and maybe it is (but that 
is rare here) -- while I cannot find a clear character to eliminate Great 
Horned Owl (common here). So I could use some actual expertise on the topic. 


Thanks, Don Roberson
Monterey County records compiler
http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Empid question
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 11:20:50 -0700
Yes - it looks like a Pacific slope to me as well. I think of the eye-ring as 
being American football-shaped. The underparts color is fine for Pacific Slope. 
The bill is long and the lower mandible is almost all yellow. 


Jeff Gilligan

Oregon/Washington/Arizona


On Jul 20, 2016, at 7:37 AM, Steve Hampton  wrote:

> It still seems like a Pac-slope to me, in color tone and teardrop eye
> ring.  Perhaps the dark bill tip is just aberrant.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 7:21 AM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:
> 
>> All,
>> 
>> Here is the correct version of the empid id request from Hugh Ranson.
>> Apologies for the accidental post last night when I was replying to Hugh.
>> If you want to reply direct to Hugh, his e-mail is: zonetail AT sbceo.org
>> 
>> 
>> All,
>> 
>> Yesterday, 7/19/16, I came across a silent empidonax flycatcher in Rocky
>> Nook Park, coastal Santa Barbara County, California. It was in a riparian
>> area of oaks and sycamores. The expected species here is Pacific-slope
>> Flycatcher (they breed at this location), and any other empid in mid-July
>> would be quite unexpected. As soon as I saw the bird's dusky-tipped lower
>> mandible, I started taking pictures. Unfortunately the bird only stuck
>> around for 15 seconds or so before disappearing. I have included the best 4
>> pictures on my Flickr site:
>> 
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/zonetail/<
>> 
http://www3.sbceo.org/web/services/go.php?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fzonetail%2F 

>>> 
>> 
>> I have received several ideas as to the bird's identity but thought it best
>> to put the pictures out there for fresh discussion. I have not played with
>> the photos beyond cropping.
>> 
>> Hugh Ranson
>> Santa Barbara
>> 
>> 
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Empid question
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 07:37:11 -0700
It still seems like a Pac-slope to me, in color tone and teardrop eye
ring.  Perhaps the dark bill tip is just aberrant.



On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 7:21 AM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:

> All,
>
> Here is the correct version of the empid id request from Hugh Ranson.
> Apologies for the accidental post last night when I was replying to Hugh.
> If you want to reply direct to Hugh, his e-mail is: zonetail AT sbceo.org
>
>
> All,
>
> Yesterday, 7/19/16, I came across a silent empidonax flycatcher in Rocky
> Nook Park, coastal Santa Barbara County, California. It was in a riparian
> area of oaks and sycamores. The expected species here is Pacific-slope
> Flycatcher (they breed at this location), and any other empid in mid-July
> would be quite unexpected. As soon as I saw the bird's dusky-tipped lower
> mandible, I started taking pictures. Unfortunately the bird only stuck
> around for 15 seconds or so before disappearing. I have included the best 4
> pictures on my Flickr site:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/zonetail/<
> 
http://www3.sbceo.org/web/services/go.php?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fzonetail%2F 

> >
>
> I have received several ideas as to the bird's identity but thought it best
> to put the pictures out there for fresh discussion. I have not played with
> the photos beyond cropping.
>
> Hugh Ranson
> Santa Barbara
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Empid question
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:21:45 +0000
All,

Here is the correct version of the empid id request from Hugh Ranson. Apologies 
for the accidental post last night when I was replying to Hugh. If you want to 
reply direct to Hugh, his e-mail is: zonetail AT sbceo.org 



All,

Yesterday, 7/19/16, I came across a silent empidonax flycatcher in Rocky
Nook Park, coastal Santa Barbara County, California. It was in a riparian
area of oaks and sycamores. The expected species here is Pacific-slope
Flycatcher (they breed at this location), and any other empid in mid-July
would be quite unexpected. As soon as I saw the bird's dusky-tipped lower
mandible, I started taking pictures. Unfortunately the bird only stuck
around for 15 seconds or so before disappearing. I have included the best 4
pictures on my Flickr site:


https://www.flickr.com/photos/zonetail/ 


I have received several ideas as to the bird's identity but thought it best
to put the pictures out there for fresh discussion. I have not played with
the photos beyond cropping.

Hugh Ranson
Santa Barbara


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: empid
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 23:47:16 +0000
Sucks for you and your son. What a mess.

I was thinking on doing the hack up the Manzana this weekend but the weekend 
after would work too. 


Would Thursday evening work? Aidan is going out to a movie that night so I am 
completely free (wife and daughter are in the UK). 


Frontiers address is: 
BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 


On the bright side, it seems that there has been a terrorist attack, a cop 
ambush, or the cops shooting an unarmed person today. 


From: Hugh Ranson [mailto:hranson AT goleta.k12.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 4:22 PM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Subject: Re: empid

Late in the day is fine with me.
A Manzana trip sounds like fun. My son has to have ear surgery (again!) soon, 
so my time is somewhat limited. Let me know when you might go. 

I have posted to ID Frontiers before but can't remember how to do it. Any tips? 

Hugh

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

I can do this on weekend or a week day evening. I would prefer not do it at a 
time on the weekend that knocks out birding/butterfly activity, but am flexible 
on what your schedule allows. 


I am kicking around doing a decent hike up the Manzana one day. Let me know if 
you are interested. 


From: Hugh Ranson 
[mailto:hranson AT goleta.k12.ca.us] 

Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 4:08 PM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Subject: Re: empid

One Vivid Dancer.
Perhaps this weekend on the photos? When is good for you?
Hugh

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

What odes did you see?

Also when do you want to meet to do the photo caption review?

From: Hugh Ranson 
[mailto:hranson AT goleta.k12.ca.us] 

Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 11:17 AM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: David Compton; Peter Gaede; Wes Fritz
Subject: Re: empid

Just been out looking but with no success. It's already hot and the birds are 
very quiet. I did see one typical Pac-slope. By the way, there's a surprising 
amount of water in the creek bed. I left Bill Murdoch there looking. 

Hugh

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

I don’t agree that Least has a broad bill. Pac-slope has a much broader bill 
than Least. I am willing to buy that the angle of the photo is perhaps making 
the bill look narrower than it really is. Plumage-wise, the bird looks OK for a 
Pac-slope to me and odd for the others, but that could be a lighting effect. 


From: David Compton 
[mailto:davcompton AT verizon.net] 

Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:47 AM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: Hugh Ranson; Peter Gaede; Wes Fritz
Subject: Re: empid

Bill looks long and narrow for Least to me, as Least bill is broad and not 
terribly long. Definitely not a Hammond's bill, and Hammond's/Dusky would be 
really strange for the date, as we all know. I agree with Peter. Certainly the 
eye ring looks Pac-slopish (to me) in the photos. Plumage looks mostly right, 
although the underparts are weird. I don't think the bill is so off for 
Pac-slope. I would say it's not a juv, as Hugh says. 


I could be wrong, but I feel like there's enough to think it's the only 
expected empid at this location and date. If other photos or vocalizations 
prove otherwise, that will be great. 


Dave

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 19, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

I think the bill shape looks better for Least than Hammond’s or Dusky in that 
it is somewhat concave. 


From: Hugh Ranson [mailto:hranson AT goleta.k12.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:05 AM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: Peter Gaede; Dave Compton; Wes Fritz
Subject: Re: empid

The tail is pretty worn which would indicate adult, I think.

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 8:50 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

The dingy appearance is Pac-slopish. I noticed on the photos seems to hint at 
spotting on the scapulars and was wondering if it might be a juv and that juvs 
could show a dusky bill tip. 


From: Hugh Ranson 
[mailto:hranson AT goleta.k12.ca.us] 

Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:48 AM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: Peter Gaede; Dave Compton; Wes Fritz
Subject: Re: empid

I will go look again this morning after I drop Nico off. Peter thinks it's a 
good fit for Pac Slope, but the dusky-tipped bill would surely be an anomaly 
for that species. The bill seems too long for Hammond's. More to come... 

Hugh

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

I took another look at this and cannot decide what it is. The lighting on the 
photo is too poor to really understand the colors and the angle on the primary 
projection may be foreshortening it. I would like to see a more obvious white 
throat to jump firmly in the Least camp. I am pretty certain the bill is too 
narrow for a Pac-slope, in addition to the dark tip. We are surely in the 
Least/Hammond’s/Dusky zone. 


From: Hugh Ranson 
[mailto:hranson AT goleta.k12.ca.us] 

Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 8:31 PM
To: Peter Gaede; Lethaby, Nick; Dave Compton; Wes Fritz
Subject: empid

Fellas,
I posted to sbcobirding but for some reason it hasn't appeared. Check out these 
photos of a briefly-seen and silent empid from Rocky Nook late this afternoon. 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/zonetail/
Hugh






Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 19:46:19 -0700
Thanks all.

I've changed it to Pacific and added a few more pics to my eBird report
(including an undertail shot).  See
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30639505.

This marks the 4th mid-summer golden-plover in Yolo County in as many
years.  The other three were 2 Americans and 1 Pacific. They were all in
full (or nearly so) breeding plumage.  Pics of them can be seen here:

American Golden-Plover
July 21, 2013
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S14701974

June 24, 2014
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S18903528

Pacific Golden-Plover
July 27, 2015
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S24406400


good birding,

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Martin Reid  wrote:

> Dear Steve,
> I am completely in line with Peter A. on this bird.
> Martin.
>
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
> On Jul 11, 2016, at Jul 11, 10:15 PM, Steve Hampton <
> stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM > wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Attached are several pics of a golden-plover found yesterday near
> Sacramento:  http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30639505
>
> I've called it an American for these reasons, but seek further input:
> 1) It called several times, a soft "chirrip". I'm not familiar with either
> call, but based on the various recordings at xeno-canto (and they are
> variable), it seemed much closer in tone to American. The call was
> decidedly soft, with a little warble in it, and not strident.
> 2) As can be seen, the bird is in active molt from summer to winter. This
> makes evaluating the plumage difficult. Hayman et al. Shorebird guide shows
> intermediate Am with white undertail and white down the flanks just like
> this bird, thus mimicking Pacific attributes. The large bulge of white at
> the breast seemed very good for American.
> 3) I thought the rather blocky head shape and short tibia seemed better for
> American.
>
> thanks,
>
>
> --
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>
>


-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA
From: Martin Reid <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:39:28 -0500
Dear Steve,
I am completely in line with Peter A. on this bird.
Martin.

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com



> On Jul 11, 2016, at Jul 11, 10:15 PM, Steve Hampton  
wrote: 

> 
> All,
> 
> Attached are several pics of a golden-plover found yesterday near
> Sacramento:  http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30639505
> 
> I've called it an American for these reasons, but seek further input:
> 1) It called several times, a soft "chirrip". I'm not familiar with either
> call, but based on the various recordings at xeno-canto (and they are
> variable), it seemed much closer in tone to American. The call was
> decidedly soft, with a little warble in it, and not strident.
> 2) As can be seen, the bird is in active molt from summer to winter. This
> makes evaluating the plumage difficult. Hayman et al. Shorebird guide shows
> intermediate Am with white undertail and white down the flanks just like
> this bird, thus mimicking Pacific attributes. The large bulge of white at
> the breast seemed very good for American.
> 3) I thought the rather blocky head shape and short tibia seemed better for
> American.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:15:39 -0700
All,

Attached are several pics of a golden-plover found yesterday near
Sacramento:  http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30639505

I've called it an American for these reasons, but seek further input:
1) It called several times, a soft "chirrip". I'm not familiar with either
call, but based on the various recordings at xeno-canto (and they are
variable), it seemed much closer in tone to American. The call was
decidedly soft, with a little warble in it, and not strident.
2) As can be seen, the bird is in active molt from summer to winter. This
makes evaluating the plumage difficult. Hayman et al. Shorebird guide shows
intermediate Am with white undertail and white down the flanks just like
this bird, thus mimicking Pacific attributes. The large bulge of white at
the breast seemed very good for American.
3) I thought the rather blocky head shape and short tibia seemed better for
American.

thanks,


-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: European Bird ID help
From: Luis Gordinho <00000125bf57f9cc-dmarc-request AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU>
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 18:22:53 +0000
Hi Frank,
I agree with Lee Evans regarding birds 1 to 3. In my opinion, Bird 4 is 
probably a Bonelli's Warbler (Western BW, given place & date) but, like Lee 
said, it's better to consider this ID uncertain. 

Cheers, Luís Gordinho

 From: "0000012475b985cd-dmarc-request AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU" 
<0000012475b985cd-dmarc-request AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> 

 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Sunday, 3 July 2016, 19:00
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] European Bird ID help
   
In a message dated 03/07/2016 14:50:56 GMT Daylight Time,  
fhaasbirds AT GMAIL.COM writes:

http://www.franklinhaas.com/EuropeID_Problems.html
Hi Frank
 
Just had a quick look at your images
 
Bird 1 appears to be a WESTERN REED WARBLER
 
Bird 2 is a (WESTERN) BLACK KITE
 
Bird 3 is a juvenile COMMON STONECHAT
 
Bird 4 is unidentifiable without more information/better images
 
All the very best  

Lee
 
You can now follow Lee on Twitter at  LeeEvansBirding



Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant,  Author, Bird Guide & Tour Leader
General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ 
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) 
British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk_ 
(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/) 
Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information - 
http://ultimateguidingbirdwise.blogspot.co.uk/
Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements - 
_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_ 
(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/) 

Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
Western  Palearctic Bird News - 
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
Items  For Sale or Exchange - 
http://leesmemorabiliaandcollectables.blogspot.co.uk/

Local  Websites
Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Buckinghamshire  Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Birds  of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Subject: European Bird ID help
From: Franklin Haas <fhaasbirds AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 09:40:25 -0400
We just returned from a two-week trip to Switzerland and France.

We encountered a few birds which we could not identify (two warblers, a
raptor, and a juvenile passerine).

They can be seen at http://www.franklinhaas.com/EuropeID_Problems.html

Can anyone help identify these birds?

Thanks

Frank

-- 
Frank Haas

Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
From: Tim Keitt <tkeitt AT UTEXAS.EDU>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 13:05:04 -0500
http://www.keittlab.org/

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Noah Arthur  wrote:

> Yeah, I agree, I probably wouldn't argue strongly for the Luneau video
> either way. It seems like very imperfect evidence, with some authors
> interpreting it as 100% IBWO, others 100% PIWO. It's the
> Arkansas sightings, reported by knowledgeable birders and ornithologists,
> that have me convinced IBWO wasn't extinct as of 2005, or else there was a
> very unusual PIWO kicking around the swamp fooling everyone. I have a very
> hard time with just dismissing these people's sightings as
> misidentifications, unless they were misidentifications of a highly unusual
> PIWO that had multiple IBWO characteristics...
>

Nothing against those involved but eyewitness testimony is notoriously
unreliable. We are complex creatures and sometimes we see what we want to
see. I believe this case is a truly fascinating lesson in psychology and
social dynamics. My impression is that many folks with entirely good
intentions came to believe something not true. Would not be the first time
in human history... ;-)

THK



>
> Noah
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. <
> m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > I guess it's all a matter of interpretation of very imperfect data, but
> > there are videos of Pileated Woodpecker with wingbeats as fast as the
> > Luneau bird, and in my paper I published a sequence of 36 sequential
> frames
> > of Pileated in flight that matched frame for frame 36 frames of the
> > Arkansas claimed IBWO.  It's pretty clear that the Arkansas bird could
> have
> > been a Pileated so the balance of probability is that that is what it in
> > fact was.
> >
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > J. Martin Collinson,  Professor in Genetics
> > m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk
> >
> > Room 4.37
> > School of Medical Sciences
> > University of Aberdeen
> > Institute of Medical Sciences
> > Foresterhill
> > Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
> > UK
> >
> > Tel:       +44 (0) 1224 437515
> > Fax:      +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously?  Do you want
> > my Telex too?
> > Mobile:  +44 (0) 7572 055385
> >
> > Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
> >
> http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Noah Arthur 
> > *Sent:* 28 June 2016 21:28:32
> > *To:* Collinson, Professor Jon M.; BIRDWG01 AT listserv.ksu.edu
> > *Subject:* Re: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
> >
> > The 2005/2006 Arkansas sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing
> > edges on the spread wing cannot be explained by normal Pileateds. Add to
> > that the fast, duck-like wingbeat described in some of the reports,
> > and you've got two strong strikes against the bird(s) being normal
> > Pileateds. Ivory-bill fits the bill for these birds, having both a white
> > trailing edge and a fast wingbeat. But what I'm wondering is if an
> aberrant
> > Pileated could have both the white secondaries AND the faster wingbeat,
> due
> > to feather wear.
> >
> > The Arkansas video seems ambiguous to me; it's very poor quality and I
> > can't seem to tell if we ever see the bird's upperside. It seems like
> > we might be seeing the underside throughout the whole video. But the
> > well-described sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing edges
> and
> > fast wingbeat in Arkansas have convinced me, at least, that there was
> > SOMETHING other than a typical Pileated out there... It would be very
> > interesting to see close-up photos of white-winged aberrant Pileateds at
> > various times of year, and see if their flight feathers ever look
> > noticeably more worn than those of typical birds...
> >
> > Noah Arthur
> > Oakland, CA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. <
> > m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi All
> >>
> >>
> >> Think it's pretty well accepted now that the Arkansas and Florida
> >> Ivory-billed sightings were misidentifications and that the plumage
> >> patterns recorded on video and  fast wingbeats of the claimed Ivorybill
> can
> >> easily be matched by 'normal' Pileateds.
> >>
> >>
> >> Now old stuff, here
> >> http://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7007-5-8 and
> here
> >> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/ims/profiles/m.collinson
> >>
> >>
> >> Best wishes
> >>
> >> Martin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >> J. Martin Collinson,  Professor in Genetics
> >> m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk
> >>
> >> Room 4.37
> >> School of Medical Sciences
> >> University of Aberdeen
> >> Institute of Medical Sciences
> >> Foresterhill
> >> Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
> >> UK
> >>
> >> Tel:       +44 (0) 1224 437515
> >> Fax:      +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously?  Do you
> >> want my Telex too?
> >> Mobile:  +44 (0) 7572 055385
> >>
> >> Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
> >>
> http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >> *From:* NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> >> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> on behalf of Noah Arthur <
> >> semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
> >> *Sent:* 28 June 2016 00:07
> >> *To:* BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >> *Subject:* [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
> >>
> >> I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
> >> something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
> >> Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.
> >>
> >> The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
> >> worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite
> as
> >> worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray
> >> more
> >> quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).
> >>
> >> What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
> >> occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It
> would
> >> make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
> >> secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
> >> reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
> >> while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
> >> result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with
> white
> >> secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.
> >>
> >> I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were
> misidentified.
> >> But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out
> to
> >> be?
> >>
> >> Noah Arthur
> >> Oakland, CA
> >>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >>
> >>
> >> The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No
> >> SC013683.
> >> Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir.
> >> SC013683.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No
> > SC013683.
> > Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir.
> > SC013683.
> >
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
From: whoffman AT PEAK.ORG
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 16:53:00 -0700
Hi - 

I think we need to be careful about how we express views on this issue. Far too 
often since the Arkansas reports, arguments have included unnecessary 
denigration of the individuals making reports,and/or unnecessary adulation of 
the individuals critiquing reports. 


IBWO has not been documented to universal satisfaction for several decades, and 
I think it is appropriate to say that claims of its occurrence are 
extraordinary, and therefore demand an extraordinary level of documentation. It 
is very appropriate to discuss whether a particular set of photos, video, 
recording, or other offered evidence meets the high standard of "extraordinary 
level of documentation," and whether the features proposed to distinguish it 
from a Pileated Woodpecker are ABSOLUTELY diagnostic. It is not so appropriate 
to turn the discussion into a referendum on the great skills, mediocre skills, 
irrational obsessions, etc. of the providers and/or critiquers of such 
evidence. This discussion in past years has gotten way too personal. 


I would rather see people write (and justify their point) that the evidence 
does or does not meet the "extraordinary level" standard, without discussing 
the skills or lack thereof, of the information providers. 


Wayne 


From: "Noah Arthur"  
To: "BIRDWG01"  
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:39:16 PM 
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear 

Yeah, I agree, I probably wouldn't argue strongly for the Luneau video 
either way. It seems like very imperfect evidence, with some authors 
interpreting it as 100% IBWO, others 100% PIWO. It's the 
Arkansas sightings, reported by knowledgeable birders and ornithologists, 
that have me convinced IBWO wasn't extinct as of 2005, or else there was a 
very unusual PIWO kicking around the swamp fooling everyone. I have a very 
hard time with just dismissing these people's sightings as 
misidentifications, unless they were misidentifications of a highly unusual 
PIWO that had multiple IBWO characteristics... 

Noah 

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. < 
m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk> wrote: 

> I guess it's all a matter of interpretation of very imperfect data, but 
> there are videos of Pileated Woodpecker with wingbeats as fast as the 
> Luneau bird, and in my paper I published a sequence of 36 sequential frames 
> of Pileated in flight that matched frame for frame 36 frames of the 
> Arkansas claimed IBWO. It's pretty clear that the Arkansas bird could have 
> been a Pileated so the balance of probability is that that is what it in 
> fact was. 
> 
> 
> Best wishes 
> 
> Martin 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------- 
> J. Martin Collinson, Professor in Genetics 
> m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk 
> 
> Room 4.37 
> School of Medical Sciences 
> University of Aberdeen 
> Institute of Medical Sciences 
> Foresterhill 
> Aberdeen AB25 2ZD 
> UK 
> 
> Tel: +44 (0) 1224 437515 
> Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you want 
> my Telex too? 
> Mobile: +44 (0) 7572 055385 
> 
> Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview. 
> http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/ 
> ------------------------------ 
> *From:* Noah Arthur  
> *Sent:* 28 June 2016 21:28:32 
> *To:* Collinson, Professor Jon M.; BIRDWG01 AT listserv.ksu.edu 
> *Subject:* Re: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear 
> 
> The 2005/2006 Arkansas sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing 
> edges on the spread wing cannot be explained by normal Pileateds. Add to 
> that the fast, duck-like wingbeat described in some of the reports, 
> and you've got two strong strikes against the bird(s) being normal 
> Pileateds. Ivory-bill fits the bill for these birds, having both a white 
> trailing edge and a fast wingbeat. But what I'm wondering is if an aberrant 
> Pileated could have both the white secondaries AND the faster wingbeat, due 
> to feather wear. 
> 
> The Arkansas video seems ambiguous to me; it's very poor quality and I 
> can't seem to tell if we ever see the bird's upperside. It seems like 
> we might be seeing the underside throughout the whole video. But the 
> well-described sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing edges and 
> fast wingbeat in Arkansas have convinced me, at least, that there was 
> SOMETHING other than a typical Pileated out there... It would be very 
> interesting to see close-up photos of white-winged aberrant Pileateds at 
> various times of year, and see if their flight feathers ever look 
> noticeably more worn than those of typical birds... 
> 
> Noah Arthur 
> Oakland, CA 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. < 
> m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk> wrote: 
> 
>> Hi All 
>> 
>> 
>> Think it's pretty well accepted now that the Arkansas and Florida 
>> Ivory-billed sightings were misidentifications and that the plumage 
>> patterns recorded on video and fast wingbeats of the claimed Ivorybill can 
>> easily be matched by 'normal' Pileateds. 
>> 
>> 
>> Now old stuff, here 
>> http://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7007-5-8 and here 
>> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/ims/profiles/m.collinson 
>> 
>> 
>> Best wishes 
>> 
>> Martin 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> J. Martin Collinson, Professor in Genetics 
>> m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk 
>> 
>> Room 4.37 
>> School of Medical Sciences 
>> University of Aberdeen 
>> Institute of Medical Sciences 
>> Foresterhill 
>> Aberdeen AB25 2ZD 
>> UK 
>> 
>> Tel: +44 (0) 1224 437515 
>> Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you 
>> want my Telex too? 
>> Mobile: +44 (0) 7572 055385 
>> 
>> Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview. 
>> http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/ 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------ 
>> *From:* NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification < 
>> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> on behalf of Noah Arthur < 
>> semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM> 
>> *Sent:* 28 June 2016 00:07 
>> *To:* BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
>> *Subject:* [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear 
>> 
>> I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have 
>> something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed 
>> Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear. 
>> 
>> The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely 
>> worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as 
>> worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray 
>> more 
>> quickly than dark feathers (with pigment). 
>> 
>> What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are 
>> occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would 
>> make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black 
>> secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to 
>> reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster 
>> while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would 
>> result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white 
>> secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat. 
>> 
>> I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified. 
>> But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to 
>> be? 
>> 
>> Noah Arthur 
>> Oakland, CA 
>> 
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 
>> 
>> 
>> The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No 
>> SC013683. 
>> Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir. 
>> SC013683. 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No 
> SC013683. 
> Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir. 
> SC013683. 
> 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 17:39:16 -0500
Yeah, I agree, I probably wouldn't argue strongly for the Luneau video
either way. It seems like very imperfect evidence, with some authors
interpreting it as 100% IBWO, others 100% PIWO. It's the
Arkansas sightings, reported by knowledgeable birders and ornithologists,
that have me convinced IBWO wasn't extinct as of 2005, or else there was a
very unusual PIWO kicking around the swamp fooling everyone. I have a very
hard time with just dismissing these people's sightings as
misidentifications, unless they were misidentifications of a highly unusual
PIWO that had multiple IBWO characteristics...

Noah

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. <
m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk> wrote:

> I guess it's all a matter of interpretation of very imperfect data, but
> there are videos of Pileated Woodpecker with wingbeats as fast as the
> Luneau bird, and in my paper I published a sequence of 36 sequential frames
> of Pileated in flight that matched frame for frame 36 frames of the
> Arkansas claimed IBWO.  It's pretty clear that the Arkansas bird could have
> been a Pileated so the balance of probability is that that is what it in
> fact was.
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> J. Martin Collinson,  Professor in Genetics
> m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk
>
> Room 4.37
> School of Medical Sciences
> University of Aberdeen
> Institute of Medical Sciences
> Foresterhill
> Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
> UK
>
> Tel:       +44 (0) 1224 437515
> Fax:      +44  (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously?  Do you want
> my Telex too?
> Mobile:  +44  (0) 7572 055385
>
> Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
> http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Noah Arthur 
> *Sent:* 28 June 2016 21:28:32
> *To:* Collinson, Professor Jon M.; BIRDWG01 AT listserv.ksu.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
>
> The 2005/2006 Arkansas sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing
> edges on the spread wing cannot be explained by normal Pileateds. Add to
> that the fast, duck-like wingbeat described in some of the reports,
> and you've got two strong strikes against the bird(s) being normal
> Pileateds. Ivory-bill fits the bill for these birds, having both a white
> trailing edge and a fast wingbeat. But what I'm wondering is if an aberrant
> Pileated could have both the white secondaries AND the faster wingbeat, due
> to feather wear.
>
> The Arkansas video seems ambiguous to me; it's very poor quality and I
> can't seem to tell if we ever see the bird's upperside. It seems like
> we might be seeing the underside throughout the whole video. But the
> well-described sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing edges and
> fast wingbeat in Arkansas have convinced me, at least, that there was
> SOMETHING other than a typical Pileated out there... It would be very
> interesting to see close-up photos of white-winged aberrant Pileateds at
> various times of year, and see if their flight feathers ever look
> noticeably more worn than those of typical birds...
>
> Noah Arthur
> Oakland, CA
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. <
> m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>>
>> Think it's pretty well accepted now that the Arkansas and Florida
>> Ivory-billed sightings were misidentifications and that the plumage
>> patterns recorded on video and  fast wingbeats of the claimed Ivorybill can
>> easily be matched by 'normal' Pileateds.
>>
>>
>> Now old stuff, here
>> http://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7007-5-8 and here
>> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/ims/profiles/m.collinson
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> J. Martin Collinson,  Professor in Genetics
>> m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk
>>
>> Room 4.37
>> School of Medical Sciences
>> University of Aberdeen
>> Institute of Medical Sciences
>> Foresterhill
>> Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
>> UK
>>
>> Tel:       +44 (0) 1224 437515
>> Fax:      +44  (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously?  Do you
>> want my Telex too?
>> Mobile:  +44  (0) 7572 055385
>>
>> Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
>> http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
>> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> on behalf of Noah Arthur <
>> semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
>> *Sent:* 28 June 2016 00:07
>> *To:* BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> *Subject:* [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
>>
>> I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
>> something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
>> Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.
>>
>> The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
>> worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
>> worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray
>> more
>> quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).
>>
>> What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
>> occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
>> make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
>> secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
>> reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
>> while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
>> result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white
>> secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.
>>
>> I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified.
>> But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to
>> be?
>>
>> Noah Arthur
>> Oakland, CA
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>>
>>
>> The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No
>> SC013683.
>> Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir.
>> SC013683.
>>
>
>
>
> The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No
> SC013683.
> Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir.
> SC013683.
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
From: "Collinson, Professor Jon M." <m.collinson AT ABDN.AC.UK>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 21:05:53 +0000
I guess it's all a matter of interpretation of very imperfect data, but there 
are videos of Pileated Woodpecker with wingbeats as fast as the Luneau bird, 
and in my paper I published a sequence of 36 sequential frames of Pileated in 
flight that matched frame for frame 36 frames of the Arkansas claimed IBWO. 
It's pretty clear that the Arkansas bird could have been a Pileated so the 
balance of probability is that that is what it in fact was. 



Best wishes

Martin


---------------------------------------------------------------
J. Martin Collinson,  Professor in Genetics
m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk

Room 4.37
School of Medical Sciences
University of Aberdeen
Institute of Medical Sciences
Foresterhill
Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
UK

Tel:       +44 (0) 1224 437515
Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you want my Telex 
too? 

Mobile:  +44  (0) 7572 055385

Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/
________________________________
From: Noah Arthur 
Sent: 28 June 2016 21:28:32
To: Collinson, Professor Jon M.; BIRDWG01 AT listserv.ksu.edu
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear

The 2005/2006 Arkansas sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing edges 
on the spread wing cannot be explained by normal Pileateds. Add to that the 
fast, duck-like wingbeat described in some of the reports, and you've got two 
strong strikes against the bird(s) being normal Pileateds. Ivory-bill fits the 
bill for these birds, having both a white trailing edge and a fast wingbeat. 
But what I'm wondering is if an aberrant Pileated could have both the white 
secondaries AND the faster wingbeat, due to feather wear. 


The Arkansas video seems ambiguous to me; it's very poor quality and I can't 
seem to tell if we ever see the bird's upperside. It seems like we might be 
seeing the underside throughout the whole video. But the well-described 
sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing edges and fast wingbeat in 
Arkansas have convinced me, at least, that there was SOMETHING other than a 
typical Pileated out there... It would be very interesting to see close-up 
photos of white-winged aberrant Pileateds at various times of year, and see if 
their flight feathers ever look noticeably more worn than those of typical 
birds... 


Noah Arthur
Oakland, CA





On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. 
> wrote: 


Hi All


Think it's pretty well accepted now that the Arkansas and Florida Ivory-billed 
sightings were misidentifications and that the plumage patterns recorded on 
video and fast wingbeats of the claimed Ivorybill can easily be matched by 
'normal' Pileateds. 



Now old stuff, here 
http://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7007-5-8 and here 
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/ims/profiles/m.collinson 



Best wishes

Martin



---------------------------------------------------------------
J. Martin Collinson,  Professor in Genetics
m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk

Room 4.37
School of Medical Sciences
University of Aberdeen
Institute of Medical Sciences
Foresterhill
Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
UK

Tel:       +44 (0) 1224 437515
Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but 
c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you want my Telex too? 

Mobile:  +44  (0) 7572 055385

Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
> on behalf of Noah 
Arthur > 

Sent: 28 June 2016 00:07
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear

I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.

The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray more
quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).

What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white
secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.

I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified.
But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to
be?

Noah Arthur
Oakland, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683.
Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas cl?raichte ann an Alba, ?ir. 
SC013683. 




The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683.
Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas cl?raichte ann an Alba, ?ir. 
SC013683. 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 15:28:32 -0500
The 2005/2006 Arkansas sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing
edges on the spread wing cannot be explained by normal Pileateds. Add to
that the fast, duck-like wingbeat described in some of the reports,
and you've got two strong strikes against the bird(s) being normal
Pileateds. Ivory-bill fits the bill for these birds, having both a white
trailing edge and a fast wingbeat. But what I'm wondering is if an aberrant
Pileated could have both the white secondaries AND the faster wingbeat, due
to feather wear.

The Arkansas video seems ambiguous to me; it's very poor quality and I
can't seem to tell if we ever see the bird's upperside. It seems like
we might be seeing the underside throughout the whole video. But the
well-described sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing edges and
fast wingbeat in Arkansas have convinced me, at least, that there was
SOMETHING other than a typical Pileated out there... It would be very
interesting to see close-up photos of white-winged aberrant Pileateds at
various times of year, and see if their flight feathers ever look
noticeably more worn than those of typical birds...

Noah Arthur
Oakland, CA





On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. <
m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk> wrote:

> Hi All
>
>
> Think it's pretty well accepted now that the Arkansas and Florida
> Ivory-billed sightings were misidentifications and that the plumage
> patterns recorded on video and  fast wingbeats of the claimed Ivorybill can
> easily be matched by 'normal' Pileateds.
>
>
> Now old stuff, here
> http://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7007-5-8 and here
> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/ims/profiles/m.collinson
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> J. Martin Collinson,  Professor in Genetics
> m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk
>
> Room 4.37
> School of Medical Sciences
> University of Aberdeen
> Institute of Medical Sciences
> Foresterhill
> Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
> UK
>
> Tel:       +44 (0) 1224 437515
> Fax:      +44  (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously?  Do you want
> my Telex too?
> Mobile:  +44  (0) 7572 055385
>
> Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
> http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> on behalf of Noah Arthur  >
> *Sent:* 28 June 2016 00:07
> *To:* BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> *Subject:* [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
>
> I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
> something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
> Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.
>
> The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
> worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
> worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray more
> quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).
>
> What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
> occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
> make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
> secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
> reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
> while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
> result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white
> secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.
>
> I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified.
> But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to
> be?
>
> Noah Arthur
> Oakland, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>
> The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No
> SC013683.
> Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir.
> SC013683.
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
From: "Collinson, Professor Jon M." <m.collinson AT ABDN.AC.UK>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 09:14:09 +0000
Hi All


Think it's pretty well accepted now that the Arkansas and Florida Ivory-billed 
sightings were misidentifications and that the plumage patterns recorded on 
video and fast wingbeats of the claimed Ivorybill can easily be matched by 
'normal' Pileateds. 



Now old stuff, here 
http://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7007-5-8 and here 
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/ims/profiles/m.collinson 



Best wishes

Martin



---------------------------------------------------------------
J. Martin Collinson,  Professor in Genetics
m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk

Room 4.37
School of Medical Sciences
University of Aberdeen
Institute of Medical Sciences
Foresterhill
Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
UK

Tel:       +44 (0) 1224 437515
Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you want my Telex 
too? 

Mobile:  +44  (0) 7572 055385

Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Noah Arthur  

Sent: 28 June 2016 00:07
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear

I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.

The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray more
quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).

What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white
secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.

I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified.
But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to
be?

Noah Arthur
Oakland, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683.
Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clraichte ann an Alba, ir. 
SC013683. 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 00:40:25 -0500
Pretty tough to test, but if a white-winged Pileated could be found and
consistently re-found in the same area, then feather wear and wingbeat
speed could be thoroughly documented, with videos of the bird in flight
combined with close-up photos showing feather condition...

Noah

On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 10:10 PM, Kai Schraml  wrote:

> Interesting idea. How could such an idea be tested?
>
>
>
> > On 28 Jun 2016, at 9:07 am, Noah Arthur  wrote:
> >
> > I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
> > something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
> > Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.
> >
> > The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
> > worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
> > worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray
> more
> > quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).
> >
> > What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
> > occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
> > make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
> > secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
> > reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
> > while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
> > result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with
> white
> > secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.
> >
> > I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were
> misidentified.
> > But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out
> to
> > be?
> >
> > Noah Arthur
> > Oakland, CA
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
From: Kai Schraml <kaischraml AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 13:10:56 +1000
Interesting idea. How could such an idea be tested?



> On 28 Jun 2016, at 9:07 am, Noah Arthur  wrote:
> 
> I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
> something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
> Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.
> 
> The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
> worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
> worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray more
> quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).
> 
> What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
> occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
> make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
> secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
> reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
> while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
> result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white
> secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.
> 
> I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified.
> But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to
> be?
> 
> Noah Arthur
> Oakland, CA
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 18:07:49 -0500
I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.

The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray more
quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).

What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white
secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.

I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified.
But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to
be?

Noah Arthur
Oakland, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Goose sp
From: whoffman AT PEAK.ORG
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 20:39:05 -0700
Hi - 

Reading the post I was expecting a photo of a domestic of some breed. The 
photo, however, looks like a leucistic Snow Goose. I think the grin patch looks 
small because of lack of black pigment in the mouth. Shape and body proportions 
look very good for Snow Goose. 


Wayne 


From: "Jeff Bleam" <000000e6bb356018-dmarc-request AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> 
To: "BIRDWG01"  
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2016 8:54:52 AM 
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Goose sp 

This goose was seen on a pond in South Reno NV (ebird cklist and photos: 
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S30059731). Large white with 
large bill some what flat head of a white adult Snow Goose. The grin is 
small even for a Lesser or Lesser x Ross. No black primaries. Possible 
Snow x Domestic sp? Any thoughts? 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania
From: Geoff Malosh <pomarine AT EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 18:06:25 -0400
I agree with Brendan. Goldfinch was my first thought after listening to the 
original audio. I've heard them give shorter songs like this one every now and 
again here in western Pennsylvania. 


Geoff Malosh
Pittsburgh, PA







-------- Original message --------
From: Brendan Fogarty <000000dca2d16fd3-dmarc-request AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU>
Date:06/02/2016 17:40 (GMT-05:00)
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania
Hi everyone, To me this closely recalls an American Goldfinch giving abbreviated songs. http://www.xeno-canto.org/263223 Best,Brendan Fogarty On Thursday, June 2, 2016 2:40 PM, Tony Futcher wrote: I am far from great with songs, but I just don't hear Indigo in this call. I get a sense of American Redstart - which, as the saying goes - "If you're not sure what it is, it's probably a redstart", or maybe an Magnolia Warbler? Just a couple of suggestions. Look forward to what other ideas come in. Tony Futcher Hyattsville, MD On 6/2/2016 10:35 AM, Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Despite not having the characteristic sequence of slow paired notes, this has all the signature qualities (timbre) of Indigo Bunting. Plus, the habitat looks right, as well. I have heard Indigo Buntings singing slightly atypical songs like this before. > > Thanks for sharing and good birding! > > Sincerely, > Chris T-H > > On Jun 2, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Heveran . > wrote: > > Hello ID experts, > A warbler whose song I didn't recognize was singing in a patch of trees behind my mechanic's garage on June 1st around 2 P.M. It was not singing at that location three hours later. > The closest warbler I can think of is Nashville, but it doesn't sound quite right for that and I think Nashville breeds a little farther north than Montgomery County. > I consulted with a talented birder by ear and he is not sure of the ID. > Here are links to the audio recording and a Google Maps location of the bird. Unfortunately the recording has some background noise due to the truck repair facility behind me. > https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tmcphi4invt9r4/warbler%20pennsburg%2006_01_16.mp3?dl=0 > https://www.dropbox.com/s/a28k921synx9k8f/Mystery_Warbler_Pennsburg_%2006_01_16.JPG?dl=0 > Any help is greatly appreciated. > Good birding, > Paul Heveran > > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html > > -- > Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes > -- Tony Futcher Hyattsville, MD Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania
From: Tony Futcher <tonyfutcher1 AT VERIZON.NET>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 14:30:07 -0400
I am far from great with songs, but I just don't hear Indigo in this 
call. I get a sense of American Redstart - which, as the saying goes - 
"If you're not sure what it is, it's probably a redstart", or maybe  an 
Magnolia Warbler?

Just a couple of suggestions. Look forward to what other ideas come in.

Tony Futcher

Hyattsville, MD


On 6/2/2016 10:35 AM, Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Despite not having the characteristic sequence of slow paired notes, this has 
all the signature qualities (timbre) of Indigo Bunting. Plus, the habitat looks 
right, as well. I have heard Indigo Buntings singing slightly atypical songs 
like this before. 

>
> Thanks for sharing and good birding!
>
> Sincerely,
> Chris T-H
>
> On Jun 2, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Heveran . 
> wrote: 

>
> Hello ID experts,
> A warbler whose song I didn't recognize was singing in a patch of trees 
behind my mechanic's garage on June 1st around 2 P.M. It was not singing at 
that location three hours later. 

> The closest warbler I can think of is Nashville, but it doesn't sound quite 
right for that and I think Nashville breeds a little farther north than 
Montgomery County. 

> I consulted with a talented birder by ear and he is not sure of the ID.
> Here are links to the audio recording and a Google Maps location of the bird. 
Unfortunately the recording has some background noise due to the truck repair 
facility behind me. 

> 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tmcphi4invt9r4/warbler%20pennsburg%2006_01_16.mp3?dl=0 

> 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/a28k921synx9k8f/Mystery_Warbler_Pennsburg_%2006_01_16.JPG?dl=0 

> Any help is greatly appreciated.
> Good birding,
> Paul Heveran
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> --
> Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes
>

-- 
Tony Futcher
Hyattsville, MD


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania
From: "Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes" <cth4 AT CORNELL.EDU>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 14:35:34 +0000
Hi Paul,

Despite not having the characteristic sequence of slow paired notes, this has 
all the signature qualities (timbre) of Indigo Bunting. Plus, the habitat looks 
right, as well. I have heard Indigo Buntings singing slightly atypical songs 
like this before. 


Thanks for sharing and good birding!

Sincerely,
Chris T-H

On Jun 2, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Heveran . 
> wrote: 


Hello ID experts,
A warbler whose song I didn't recognize was singing in a patch of trees behind 
my mechanic's garage on June 1st around 2 P.M. It was not singing at that 
location three hours later. 

The closest warbler I can think of is Nashville, but it doesn't sound quite 
right for that and I think Nashville breeds a little farther north than 
Montgomery County. 

I consulted with a talented birder by ear and he is not sure of the ID.
Here are links to the audio recording and a Google Maps location of the bird. 
Unfortunately the recording has some background noise due to the truck repair 
facility behind me. 


https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tmcphi4invt9r4/warbler%20pennsburg%2006_01_16.mp3?dl=0 


https://www.dropbox.com/s/a28k921synx9k8f/Mystery_Warbler_Pennsburg_%2006_01_16.JPG?dl=0 

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Good birding,
Paul Heveran


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

--
Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes
Field Applications Engineer
Bioacoustics Research Program, Cornell Lab of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road, Ithaca, New York 14850
W: 607-254-2418 M: 607-351-5740 F: 
607-254-1132 

http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania
From: "Heveran ." <hheveran AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:27:16 -0400
Hello ID experts,
A warbler whose song I didn't recognize was singing in a patch of trees behind 
my mechanic's garage on June 1st around 2 P.M. It was not singing at that 
location three hours later. 

The closest warbler I can think of is Nashville, but it doesn't sound quite 
right for that and I think Nashville breeds a little farther north than 
Montgomery County. 

I consulted with a talented birder by ear and he is not sure of the ID.
Here are links to the audio recording and a Google Maps location of the bird. 
Unfortunately the recording has some background noise due to the truck repair 
facility behind me. 


https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tmcphi4invt9r4/warbler%20pennsburg%2006_01_16.mp3?dl=0 


https://www.dropbox.com/s/a28k921synx9k8f/Mystery_Warbler_Pennsburg_%2006_01_16.JPG?dl=0 

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Good birding,
Paul Heveran

 		 	   		  
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
From: Jason Rogers <hawkowl AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 17:23:03 +0000
Hi Ken,

Without hesitation, I would call this a Dusky. I hear many Hammond's and Dusky 
in Alberta, where I live. And over the past few weeks, I've been in southern 
British Columbia, where I've also been getting a number of Grays. From where I 
was standing the other day, I had all three species going at the same time, 
which was fun! 


Jason Rogers
Calgary


> Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 04:55:00 +0000
> From: kschnei1 AT HOTMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> 
> With some frequency, I encounter singing Empidonax flycatchers in the 
mountains of California that are either Dusky or Hammond's. It can sometimes be 
nearly impossible to track them down and get visual clues and I often don't 
hear the diagnostic (?) one-syllable call notes or the two-syllable du-hic call 
of Dusky, so I'm left with only the song to work with... Despite the excellent 
tips on separating the songs of the two species in Kenn Kaufman's recent field 
guide (page 372), I still have trouble distinguishing them. 

> 
> 
> I recorded the following bird recently in a patch of coniferous forest:
> 
> 
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29907568
> 
> 
> I thought it was probably a Hammond's Flycatcher based on the two-syllable 
"first element" and the overall raspy quality without clear whistled notes, but 
an experienced local birder suggested it might be Dusky instead. 

> 
> 
> What do folks think of this bird? In general, are most of these singing 
empids identifiable to species based on the song alone or should I be letting 
them go at Dusky/Hammond's unless I hear other vocalizations or see them? 

> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Ken Schneider
> 
> San Francisco, CA
> 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
From: David Sibley <sibleyguides AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 05:45:32 -0400
Hi Ken,

This is definitely a Dusky Flycatcher, the clear rising phrase is
diagnostic, first heard (and visible in the spectrogram) at 18 seconds in
your recording. All individuals should be identifiable by song, and Arch
McCallum has put together an excellent guide to western Empid sounds here:

http://www.appliedbioacoustics.com/fieldguide/empidwest.html

Best,
David
sibleyguides AT gmail.com
www.sibleyguides.com

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 12:55 AM, Ken R. Schneider 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
> With some frequency, I encounter singing Empidonax flycatchers in the
> mountains of California that are either Dusky or Hammond's.   It can
> sometimes be nearly impossible to track them down and get visual clues and
> I often don't hear the diagnostic (?) one-syllable call notes or the
> two-syllable du-hic call of Dusky, so I'm left with only the song to work
> with...  Despite the excellent tips on separating the songs of the two
> species in Kenn Kaufman's recent field guide (page 372), I still have
> trouble distinguishing them.
>
>
> I recorded the following bird recently in a patch of coniferous forest:
>
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29907568
>
>
> I thought it was probably a Hammond's Flycatcher based on the two-syllable
> "first element" and the overall raspy quality without clear whistled notes,
> but an experienced local birder suggested it might be Dusky instead.
>
>
> What do folks think of this bird?  In general, are most of these singing
> empids identifiable to species based on the song alone or should I be
> letting them go at Dusky/Hammond's unless I hear other vocalizations or see
> them?
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Ken Schneider
>
> San Francisco, CA
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
From: Tim Janzen <tjanzen AT COMCAST.NET>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 23:57:16 -0700
Dear Ken,
http://www.xeno-canto.org/316008 and http://www.xeno-canto.org/316006 are
fairly similar to what I generally hear in Oregon for Hammond's Flycatchers.
http://www.xeno-canto.org/161661 sounds fairly typical for what I hear for
Dusky Flycatchers in Oregon.  I think that your bird sounds more typical of
a Dusky Flycatcher.  To my ear, the first note in the song of Hammond's
Flycatcher has a more striking burry quality to it than the first note in
the song of Dusky Flycatcher.  That is one of the ways that I separate these
two species.
Sincerely,
Tim Janzen
Portland, OR 

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Ken R. Schneider
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 9:55 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers

Hi all,


With some frequency, I encounter singing Empidonax flycatchers in the
mountains of California that are either Dusky or Hammond's.   It can
sometimes be nearly impossible to track them down and get visual clues and I
often don't hear the diagnostic (?) one-syllable call notes or the
two-syllable du-hic call of Dusky, so I'm left with only the song to work
with...  Despite the excellent tips on separating the songs of the two
species in Kenn Kaufman's recent field guide (page 372), I still have
trouble distinguishing them.


I recorded the following bird recently in a patch of coniferous forest:


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29907568


I thought it was probably a Hammond's Flycatcher based on the two-syllable
"first element" and the overall raspy quality without clear whistled notes,
but an experienced local birder suggested it might be Dusky instead.


What do folks think of this bird?  In general, are most of these singing
empids identifiable to species based on the song alone or should I be
letting them go at Dusky/Hammond's unless I hear other vocalizations or see
them?


Thanks!


Ken Schneider

San Francisco, CA 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
From: "Ken R. Schneider" <kschnei1 AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 04:55:00 +0000
Hi all,


With some frequency, I encounter singing Empidonax flycatchers in the mountains 
of California that are either Dusky or Hammond's. It can sometimes be nearly 
impossible to track them down and get visual clues and I often don't hear the 
diagnostic (?) one-syllable call notes or the two-syllable du-hic call of 
Dusky, so I'm left with only the song to work with... Despite the excellent 
tips on separating the songs of the two species in Kenn Kaufman's recent field 
guide (page 372), I still have trouble distinguishing them. 



I recorded the following bird recently in a patch of coniferous forest:


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29907568


I thought it was probably a Hammond's Flycatcher based on the two-syllable 
"first element" and the overall raspy quality without clear whistled notes, but 
an experienced local birder suggested it might be Dusky instead. 



What do folks think of this bird? In general, are most of these singing empids 
identifiable to species based on the song alone or should I be letting them go 
at Dusky/Hammond's unless I hear other vocalizations or see them? 



Thanks!


Ken Schneider

San Francisco, CA


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
From: Ryan Brady <ryanbrady10 AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 01:30:59 +0000
Many thanks to all for the input and continued discussion. It is extremely 
appreciated and informative. 


Ryan Brady
Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
http://www.pbase.com/rbrady

________________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Alvaro Jaramillo 
 

Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 4:36 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Hello,
 Not sure if this went out earlier today. My apologies if it did go out. I 
could not see it. 

Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Alvaro Jaramillo [mailto:chucao AT coastside.net]
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:34 AM
To: 'Brian Sullivan' ; 'BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU' 
 

Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Brian,
 Interesting! One issue that may be a problem is that the subspecific 
delineation might not fall clearly along the line of migrant vs resident forms. 
Whether the break is migrant vs resident or South American vs north of Panama 
is an open question. I think vocal work or genetics would have to be 
incorporated. There are vocal differences between South America Tropical and 
those from farther north, not huge, but they exist. See below. 

 Something similar will be published soon regarding Vermilion Flycatchers, a 
paper I am involved in, Austral migrants being one of the elements involved. 
Again, I do wonder if some vagrant Vermilion Flycatchers are actually South 
American Austral migrants. 


TROPICAL KINGBIRD DAWN SONGS:
Dawn song Nicaragua
http://www.xeno-canto.org/11078

Dawn song Costa Rica
http://www.xeno-canto.org/137689

Dawn song Ecuador
http://www.xeno-canto.org/260975

Dawn song Brazil
http://www.xeno-canto.org/247446


Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Sullivan 

Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:13 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Al et al.,

I've wondered the same thing, even about some of the fall birds in CA. I've 
posted these before, but this individual had me thinking pretty hard about some 
of the Austral forms. No conclusion though: 


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15300880

Brian

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo 
wrote:

> All,
>   Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in
> fact the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long
> distance migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close 
to it. 

> Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North
> America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what
> one characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
>    Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753524&t=s&s=11338&p=2
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern
> Wisconsin
>
> Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird
> concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have
> been studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley
> where they occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in
> fall, and using their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in
> question, and then assessing the physical profile of each bird. As
> Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground category where
> the physical features are not definitive, and where call is needed to
> verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as
> well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill
> size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood.
>
> In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one
> of the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male
> Tropicals are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive
> head shapes, but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals
> in Honduras did not show the obvious differences that occur in some
> birds, but one bird in each pair had slight differences in bill size
> and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird that does not
> show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical Kingbird,
> and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a
> noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length
> and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out,
> Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises
> to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from
> front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is
> usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better
> words to describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due
> to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's.
> Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the
> bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite
> photo I put together from two calling birds that shows these
> differences in the two birds: Couch's at
> left: Tropical at right.
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Co
> uch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html
> .
>
> The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed
> birds that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite
> to show how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in
> this photo if you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't
> show forked tails, but square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is
> also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but these birds with square
> tails usually have very short, thick based bills and high profile
> heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling this
> bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually
> requires some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for
> comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed Tropical from
> Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave
> speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head 
profile: 

> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+King
> bird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html
>
> Kevin Karlson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ryan Brady" 
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline
> in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen
> for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very
> difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/kingbird2016
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin
> has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported
> as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at
> species level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader * www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 16:36:06 -0700
Hello, 
 Not sure if this went out earlier today. My apologies if it did go out. I 
could not see it. 

Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Alvaro Jaramillo [mailto:chucao AT coastside.net] 
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:34 AM
To: 'Brian Sullivan' ; 'BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU' 
 

Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Brian, 
 Interesting! One issue that may be a problem is that the subspecific 
delineation might not fall clearly along the line of migrant vs resident forms. 
Whether the break is migrant vs resident or South American vs north of Panama 
is an open question. I think vocal work or genetics would have to be 
incorporated. There are vocal differences between South America Tropical and 
those from farther north, not huge, but they exist. See below. 

 Something similar will be published soon regarding Vermilion Flycatchers, a 
paper I am involved in, Austral migrants being one of the elements involved. 
Again, I do wonder if some vagrant Vermilion Flycatchers are actually South 
American Austral migrants. 


TROPICAL KINGBIRD DAWN SONGS: 
Dawn song Nicaragua
http://www.xeno-canto.org/11078

Dawn song Costa Rica
http://www.xeno-canto.org/137689

Dawn song Ecuador
http://www.xeno-canto.org/260975

Dawn song Brazil
http://www.xeno-canto.org/247446


Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Sullivan 

Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:13 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Al et al.,

I've wondered the same thing, even about some of the fall birds in CA. I've 
posted these before, but this individual had me thinking pretty hard about some 
of the Austral forms. No conclusion though: 


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15300880

Brian

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo 
wrote:

> All,
>   Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in 
> fact the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long 
> distance migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close 
to it. 

> Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North 
> America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what 
> one characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
>    Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753524&t=s&s=11338&p=2
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern 
> Wisconsin
>
> Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird 
> concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have 
> been studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley 
> where they occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in 
> fall, and using their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in 
> question, and then assessing the physical profile of each bird. As 
> Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground category where 
> the physical features are not definitive, and where call is needed to 
> verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as 
> well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill 
> size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood.
>
> In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one 
> of the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male 
> Tropicals are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive 
> head shapes, but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals 
> in Honduras did not show the obvious differences that occur in some 
> birds, but one bird in each pair had slight differences in bill size 
> and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird that does not 
> show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical Kingbird, 
> and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a 
> noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length 
> and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out, 
> Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises 
> to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from 
> front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is 
> usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better 
> words to describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due 
> to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's.
> Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the 
> bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite 
> photo I put together from two calling birds that shows these 
> differences in the two birds: Couch's at
> left: Tropical at right.
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Co
> uch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html
> .
>
> The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed 
> birds that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite 
> to show how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in 
> this photo if you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't 
> show forked tails, but square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is 
> also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but these birds with square 
> tails usually have very short, thick based bills and high profile 
> heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling this 
> bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually 
> requires some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for 
> comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed Tropical from 
> Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave 
> speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head 
profile: 

> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+King
> bird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html
>
> Kevin Karlson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ryan Brady" 
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline 
> in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen 
> for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very 
> difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/kingbird2016
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin 
> has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported 
> as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at 
> species level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader * www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 14:59:14 -0700
Hi Joe and all -

We had the same word-of-mouth information about this Farallon 
specimen (Ned Johnson also concurred with obscurus) but I could not 
locate it during thorough searches of the CAS, MVZ, and PRBO 
collections during the late 1980s sometime. It had evidently been 
sent around and at some point was never returned. I am still hopeful 
that it will turn up again, but for now there is no opportunity to 
examine or sample it.

Re the Wisconsin bird, as I mentioned earlier, the molt pattern and 
extent of wear on the juvenile p1-p3 and s1-s4, the formative p4-p10, 
s5-s7, and rectrices, and (especially) the first-alternate s8 (on 
both wings) is consistent with northern-breeding occidentalis at this 
time of year. This quite contrasts with the two late-June Tropical 
Kingbirds from last year, which included an adult finishing molt 
(Minnesota) and a first-cycle bird that still retained juvenile outer 
primaries (Ontario), more consistent with molt timing and wear from 
Austral populations.

Peter

At 12:48 PM 5/23/2016, Joseph Morlan wrote:
>Peter,
>
>My recollection is that the Farallon Tropical Kingbird specimen from August
>1973 (PRBO #713) was identified by Wesley Lanyon as M. m. obscurus which
>ranges from western and central Peru north to Ecuador and SW Columbia. This
>race is now synonymized by most authors with nominate melancholicus.
>
>Information on obscurus is hard to come by, but Zimmer's 1937 description
>of obscurus along with comparison of other races is at....
>
>http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/handle/2246/3860
>
>The BNA account mentions that Steve Cardiff examined the specimen and felt
>it was an escaped cage-bird, but most other sources have considered it to
>be a genuine vagrant.  It might be interesting to reexamine the specimen.
>Also I believe there is now a reasonably good DNA baseline available so
>molecular testing might shed further light on the record.
>
>I believe a couple of other specimens from Eastern North America have been
>attributed to M. m. satrapa from Mexico/Central America.  Some are listed
>by Mlodinov in a 1998 article in "Field Notes."  They should probably be
>reviewed again. Mlodinov's summary is at...
>
>https://sora.unm.edu/node/113356
>
>
>On Mon, 23 May 2016 09:18:49 -0700, Peter Pyle  wrote:
>
> >Some discussion we had last summer (below) on where spring-summer
> >Tropical Kingbirds north of the range in North America may originate.
> >My first take on the Wisconsin bird is that it fits molt and wear
> >patterns for northern populations but I'll take another look later today.
> >
> >Peter
> >
> >>Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:25:08 -0700
> >>To: "R.D. Everhart" 
> >>From: Peter Pyle 
> >>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
> >>Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >>
> >>Hi Roger and all -
> >>
> >>David Sibley also forwarded an open-wing shot of the kingbird taken
> >>by Annabelle Watts. My response below applies as well to your photos
> >>just posted (where you can see all primaries replaced but the
> >>secondaries still old, but not looking old enough for juvenile
> >>feathers), although the outer primary tip is not visible. We both
> >>think that summer records of Tropical Kingbirds in eastern North
> >>America may most likely be of nominate Austral migrants, and this
> >>would seem to indicate the potential for White-throated Kingbird to
> >>show up as well.
> >>
> >>Peter
> >>
> >>The flight shot by Annabelle Watts is quite useful in that it
> >>indicates it to be an adult female. Had it been a first-year bird
> >>undergoing the preformative molt we would expect it to have an
> >>eccentric pattern (retaining inner primaries and beginning molt at
> >>p4-p7) instead of showing all inner primaries replaced. (It seems
> >>close to all kingbird individuals undergo eccentric preformative
> >>molts, except in Eastern Kingbird where all primaries are usually
> >>replaced.)  Also the outer primaries and secondaries on the
> >>Minnesota bird do not look like juvenile feathers to me, with enough
> >>of a notch to p10 to indicate a formative or basic feather in a
> >>female. I had suspected this based on what I could see in Roger
> >>Evehart's photo but I was not sure enough.
> >>
> >>The time frame for completing the prebasic molt in occidentalis
> >>would be Nov according the ID Guide, but it would not surprise me if
> >>these molts regularly extend into winter or early spring. We're
> >>finding that birds undergoing flight-feather molt on Neotropical
> >>winter grounds tend to protract it more than is published, due to
> >>lack of food and other constraints, only needing to complete it
> >>before spring migration. Thus, I'd expect occidentalis could easily
> >>be completing a prebasic molt in Nov-Jan or later. As such, the molt
> >>timing of the Minnesota bird is six months off cycle and would
> >>indicate an Austral migrant. I don't see the prebasic molt being
> >>anywhere close to this stage in late June, in any Boreal-cycle kingbird.
> >>
> >>The outer rectrices of the Ontario kingbird
> >>http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod
> >>look like juvenile feathers by shape, but do not show the extreme
> >>wear that juvenile feathers would show if it was a year-old
> >>occidentalis. Plus, the juvenile rectrices are often replaced during
> >>the preformative molt (although the ID Guide splits the
> >>flight-feather molt into preformative and first prealternate, I
> >>would tend now to call it all part of a protracted preformative molt
> >>overlapping first-prealternate body feather molt). The outer
> >>primary, from what I can see of it, looks brownish and pointed like
> >>a juvenile feather and it almost looks like p9 might be missing and
> >>p8 growing, but this is just a speculative hunch. Too bad there are
> >>not more photos. But if my hunches are correct it would indicate the
> >>bird may have been completing the preformative molt, again about six
> >>months off what would be expected of occidentalis.
> >>
> >>I don't know how this might equate to molt and migration in nominate
> >>Tropical Kingbird or White-throated Kingbird, but it seems
> >>reasonable that they could show molt patterns similar to Boreal
> >>conspecific/congeners but six months off cycle. I'll be interested
> >>in further thoughts and documentation on these or any other vagrant
> >>summer Tropical Kingbirds. The Farallon specimen has unfortunately
> >>been misplaced, but I still hope it turns up somewhere for analysis
> >>of molt timing and age.
> >>
> >>
> >>At 08:37 AM 7/3/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
> >>>Based on Peter's comments I went back and found a couple of photos of
> >>>the Minnesota Kingbird that may (or may not) help the discussion. I
> >>>posted them at
> >>>
> >>>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
> >>>
> >>>Hope this helps.
> >>>
> >>>Roger Everhart
> >>>Apple Valley, MN
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>---- Original Message ----
> >>>From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
> >>>To: everhart AT BLACK-HOLE.COM, wormington AT JUNO.COM
> >>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
> >>>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:57:07 -0700
> >>>
> >>> >I'm not certain of this, but it seems both the Minnesota and the
> >>> >Ontario kingbirds may be on molt cycles reflecting an Austral rather
> >>> >than a Boreal breeding and migrating populations. The Minnesota bird
> >>> >is completing a molt and I thought that the Ontario bird may still
> >>> >have juvenile outer rectrices and outer primary (but not worn enough
> >>> >to be a year old). Better photos of each, with open wings and tails,
> >>> >would help determine molt progression and age. For northern Tropical
> >>> >Kingbirds (occidentalis) we would expect to see molt patterns like
> >>> >this in Nov-Dec on the winter grounds (both preformative and
> >>> >prebasic) and not June. Something to consider when encountering and
> >>> >documenting summer kingbirds in North America.
> >>> >
> >>> >Peter
> >>> >
> >>> >At 10:59 AM 7/2/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
> >>> >>Hey everyone-
> >>> >>
> >>> >>     I went out to chase the Tropical Kingbird that has been seen at
> >>> >>Murphy-Hanrahan Park south of Minneapolis/St. Paul and got a few
> >>> >>photos that I have posted here:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
> >>> >>
> >>> >>    The bird was seen off and on between about 7 am and 9:30 am. It
> >>> >>did not vocalize while I was there.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Roger Everhart
> >>> >>Apple Valley, MN
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> >Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>--
>Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 12:48:07 -0700
Peter,

My recollection is that the Farallon Tropical Kingbird specimen from August
1973 (PRBO #713) was identified by Wesley Lanyon as M. m. obscurus which
ranges from western and central Peru north to Ecuador and SW Columbia. This
race is now synonymized by most authors with nominate melancholicus.  

Information on obscurus is hard to come by, but Zimmer's 1937 description
of obscurus along with comparison of other races is at....

http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/handle/2246/3860

The BNA account mentions that Steve Cardiff examined the specimen and felt
it was an escaped cage-bird, but most other sources have considered it to
be a genuine vagrant.  It might be interesting to reexamine the specimen.
Also I believe there is now a reasonably good DNA baseline available so
molecular testing might shed further light on the record.  

I believe a couple of other specimens from Eastern North America have been
attributed to M. m. satrapa from Mexico/Central America.  Some are listed
by Mlodinov in a 1998 article in "Field Notes."  They should probably be
reviewed again. Mlodinov's summary is at...  

https://sora.unm.edu/node/113356


On Mon, 23 May 2016 09:18:49 -0700, Peter Pyle  wrote:

>Some discussion we had last summer (below) on where spring-summer 
>Tropical Kingbirds north of the range in North America may originate. 
>My first take on the Wisconsin bird is that it fits molt and wear 
>patterns for northern populations but I'll take another look later today.
>
>Peter
>
>>Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:25:08 -0700
>>To: "R.D. Everhart" 
>>From: Peter Pyle 
>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
>>Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>>
>>Hi Roger and all -
>>
>>David Sibley also forwarded an open-wing shot of the kingbird taken 
>>by Annabelle Watts. My response below applies as well to your photos 
>>just posted (where you can see all primaries replaced but the 
>>secondaries still old, but not looking old enough for juvenile 
>>feathers), although the outer primary tip is not visible. We both 
>>think that summer records of Tropical Kingbirds in eastern North 
>>America may most likely be of nominate Austral migrants, and this 
>>would seem to indicate the potential for White-throated Kingbird to 
>>show up as well.
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>The flight shot by Annabelle Watts is quite useful in that it 
>>indicates it to be an adult female. Had it been a first-year bird 
>>undergoing the preformative molt we would expect it to have an 
>>eccentric pattern (retaining inner primaries and beginning molt at 
>>p4-p7) instead of showing all inner primaries replaced. (It seems 
>>close to all kingbird individuals undergo eccentric preformative 
>>molts, except in Eastern Kingbird where all primaries are usually 
>>replaced.)  Also the outer primaries and secondaries on the 
>>Minnesota bird do not look like juvenile feathers to me, with enough 
>>of a notch to p10 to indicate a formative or basic feather in a 
>>female. I had suspected this based on what I could see in Roger 
>>Evehart's photo but I was not sure enough.
>>
>>The time frame for completing the prebasic molt in occidentalis 
>>would be Nov according the ID Guide, but it would not surprise me if 
>>these molts regularly extend into winter or early spring. We're 
>>finding that birds undergoing flight-feather molt on Neotropical 
>>winter grounds tend to protract it more than is published, due to 
>>lack of food and other constraints, only needing to complete it 
>>before spring migration. Thus, I'd expect occidentalis could easily 
>>be completing a prebasic molt in Nov-Jan or later. As such, the molt 
>>timing of the Minnesota bird is six months off cycle and would 
>>indicate an Austral migrant. I don't see the prebasic molt being 
>>anywhere close to this stage in late June, in any Boreal-cycle kingbird.
>>
>>The outer rectrices of the Ontario kingbird
>>http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod
>>look like juvenile feathers by shape, but do not show the extreme 
>>wear that juvenile feathers would show if it was a year-old 
>>occidentalis. Plus, the juvenile rectrices are often replaced during 
>>the preformative molt (although the ID Guide splits the 
>>flight-feather molt into preformative and first prealternate, I 
>>would tend now to call it all part of a protracted preformative molt 
>>overlapping first-prealternate body feather molt). The outer 
>>primary, from what I can see of it, looks brownish and pointed like 
>>a juvenile feather and it almost looks like p9 might be missing and 
>>p8 growing, but this is just a speculative hunch. Too bad there are 
>>not more photos. But if my hunches are correct it would indicate the 
>>bird may have been completing the preformative molt, again about six 
>>months off what would be expected of occidentalis.
>>
>>I don't know how this might equate to molt and migration in nominate 
>>Tropical Kingbird or White-throated Kingbird, but it seems 
>>reasonable that they could show molt patterns similar to Boreal 
>>conspecific/congeners but six months off cycle. I'll be interested 
>>in further thoughts and documentation on these or any other vagrant 
>>summer Tropical Kingbirds. The Farallon specimen has unfortunately 
>>been misplaced, but I still hope it turns up somewhere for analysis 
>>of molt timing and age.
>>
>>
>>At 08:37 AM 7/3/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
>>>Based on Peter's comments I went back and found a couple of photos of
>>>the Minnesota Kingbird that may (or may not) help the discussion. I
>>>posted them at
>>>
>>>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
>>>
>>>Hope this helps.
>>>
>>>Roger Everhart
>>>Apple Valley, MN
>>>
>>>
>>>---- Original Message ----
>>>From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
>>>To: everhart AT BLACK-HOLE.COM, wormington AT JUNO.COM
>>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
>>>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:57:07 -0700
>>>
>>> >I'm not certain of this, but it seems both the Minnesota and the
>>> >Ontario kingbirds may be on molt cycles reflecting an Austral rather
>>> >than a Boreal breeding and migrating populations. The Minnesota bird
>>> >is completing a molt and I thought that the Ontario bird may still
>>> >have juvenile outer rectrices and outer primary (but not worn enough
>>> >to be a year old). Better photos of each, with open wings and tails,
>>> >would help determine molt progression and age. For northern Tropical
>>> >Kingbirds (occidentalis) we would expect to see molt patterns like
>>> >this in Nov-Dec on the winter grounds (both preformative and
>>> >prebasic) and not June. Something to consider when encountering and
>>> >documenting summer kingbirds in North America.
>>> >
>>> >Peter
>>> >
>>> >At 10:59 AM 7/2/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
>>> >>Hey everyone-
>>> >>
>>> >>     I went out to chase the Tropical Kingbird that has been seen at
>>> >>Murphy-Hanrahan Park south of Minneapolis/St. Paul and got a few
>>> >>photos that I have posted here:
>>> >>
>>> >>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
>>> >>
>>> >>    The bird was seen off and on between about 7 am and 9:30 am. It
>>> >>did not vocalize while I was there.
>>> >>
>>> >>Roger Everhart
>>> >>Apple Valley, MN
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>> >
>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 09:34:01 -0700
Brian, 
 Interesting! One issue that may be a problem is that the subspecific 
delineation might not fall clearly along the line of migrant vs resident forms. 
Whether the break is migrant vs resident or South American vs north of Panama 
is an open question. I think vocal work or genetics would have to be 
incorporated. There are vocal differences between South America Tropical and 
those from farther north, not huge, but they exist. See below. 

 Something similar will be published soon regarding Vermilion Flycatchers, a 
paper I am involved in, Austral migrants being one of the elements involved. 
Again, I do wonder if some vagrant Vermilion Flycatchers are actually South 
American Austral migrants. 


TROPICAL KINGBIRD DAWN SONGS: 
Dawn song Nicaragua
http://www.xeno-canto.org/11078

Dawn song Costa Rica
http://www.xeno-canto.org/137689

Dawn song Ecuador
http://www.xeno-canto.org/260975

Dawn song Brazil
http://www.xeno-canto.org/247446


Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Sullivan 

Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:13 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Al et al.,

I've wondered the same thing, even about some of the fall birds in CA. I've 
posted these before, but this individual had me thinking pretty hard about some 
of the Austral forms. No conclusion though: 


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15300880

Brian

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo 
wrote:

> All,
>   Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in 
> fact the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long 
> distance migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close 
to it. 

> Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North 
> America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what 
> one characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
>    Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753524&t=s&s=11338&p=2
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern 
> Wisconsin
>
> Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird 
> concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have 
> been studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley 
> where they occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in 
> fall, and using their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in 
> question, and then assessing the physical profile of each bird. As 
> Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground category where 
> the physical features are not definitive, and where call is needed to 
> verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as 
> well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill 
> size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood.
>
> In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one 
> of the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male 
> Tropicals are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive 
> head shapes, but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals 
> in Honduras did not show the obvious differences that occur in some 
> birds, but one bird in each pair had slight differences in bill size 
> and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird that does not 
> show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical Kingbird, 
> and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a 
> noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length 
> and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out, 
> Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises 
> to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from 
> front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is 
> usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better 
> words to describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due 
> to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's. 
> Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the 
> bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite 
> photo I put together from two calling birds that shows these 
> differences in the two birds: Couch's at
> left: Tropical at right.
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Co
> uch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html
> .
>
> The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed 
> birds that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite 
> to show how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in 
> this photo if you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't 
> show forked tails, but square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is 
> also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but these birds with square 
> tails usually have very short, thick based bills and high profile 
> heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling this 
> bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually 
> requires some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for 
> comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed Tropical from 
> Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave 
> speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head 
profile: 

> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+King
> bird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html
>
> Kevin Karlson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ryan Brady" 
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline 
> in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen 
> for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very 
> difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/kingbird2016
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin 
> has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported 
> as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at 
> species level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 09:18:49 -0700
Some discussion we had last summer (below) on where spring-summer 
Tropical Kingbirds north of the range in North America may originate. 
My first take on the Wisconsin bird is that it fits molt and wear 
patterns for northern populations but I'll take another look later today.

Peter

>Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:25:08 -0700
>To: "R.D. Everhart" 
>From: Peter Pyle 
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
>Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
>Hi Roger and all -
>
>David Sibley also forwarded an open-wing shot of the kingbird taken 
>by Annabelle Watts. My response below applies as well to your photos 
>just posted (where you can see all primaries replaced but the 
>secondaries still old, but not looking old enough for juvenile 
>feathers), although the outer primary tip is not visible. We both 
>think that summer records of Tropical Kingbirds in eastern North 
>America may most likely be of nominate Austral migrants, and this 
>would seem to indicate the potential for White-throated Kingbird to 
>show up as well.
>
>Peter
>
>The flight shot by Annabelle Watts is quite useful in that it 
>indicates it to be an adult female. Had it been a first-year bird 
>undergoing the preformative molt we would expect it to have an 
>eccentric pattern (retaining inner primaries and beginning molt at 
>p4-p7) instead of showing all inner primaries replaced. (It seems 
>close to all kingbird individuals undergo eccentric preformative 
>molts, except in Eastern Kingbird where all primaries are usually 
>replaced.)  Also the outer primaries and secondaries on the 
>Minnesota bird do not look like juvenile feathers to me, with enough 
>of a notch to p10 to indicate a formative or basic feather in a 
>female. I had suspected this based on what I could see in Roger 
>Evehart's photo but I was not sure enough.
>
>The time frame for completing the prebasic molt in occidentalis 
>would be Nov according the ID Guide, but it would not surprise me if 
>these molts regularly extend into winter or early spring. We're 
>finding that birds undergoing flight-feather molt on Neotropical 
>winter grounds tend to protract it more than is published, due to 
>lack of food and other constraints, only needing to complete it 
>before spring migration. Thus, I'd expect occidentalis could easily 
>be completing a prebasic molt in Nov-Jan or later. As such, the molt 
>timing of the Minnesota bird is six months off cycle and would 
>indicate an Austral migrant. I don't see the prebasic molt being 
>anywhere close to this stage in late June, in any Boreal-cycle kingbird.
>
>The outer rectrices of the Ontario kingbird
>http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod
>look like juvenile feathers by shape, but do not show the extreme 
>wear that juvenile feathers would show if it was a year-old 
>occidentalis. Plus, the juvenile rectrices are often replaced during 
>the preformative molt (although the ID Guide splits the 
>flight-feather molt into preformative and first prealternate, I 
>would tend now to call it all part of a protracted preformative molt 
>overlapping first-prealternate body feather molt). The outer 
>primary, from what I can see of it, looks brownish and pointed like 
>a juvenile feather and it almost looks like p9 might be missing and 
>p8 growing, but this is just a speculative hunch. Too bad there are 
>not more photos. But if my hunches are correct it would indicate the 
>bird may have been completing the preformative molt, again about six 
>months off what would be expected of occidentalis.
>
>I don't know how this might equate to molt and migration in nominate 
>Tropical Kingbird or White-throated Kingbird, but it seems 
>reasonable that they could show molt patterns similar to Boreal 
>conspecific/congeners but six months off cycle. I'll be interested 
>in further thoughts and documentation on these or any other vagrant 
>summer Tropical Kingbirds. The Farallon specimen has unfortunately 
>been misplaced, but I still hope it turns up somewhere for analysis 
>of molt timing and age.
>
>
>At 08:37 AM 7/3/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
>>Based on Peter's comments I went back and found a couple of photos of
>>the Minnesota Kingbird that may (or may not) help the discussion. I
>>posted them at
>>
>>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
>>
>>Hope this helps.
>>
>>Roger Everhart
>>Apple Valley, MN
>>
>>
>>---- Original Message ----
>>From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
>>To: everhart AT BLACK-HOLE.COM, wormington AT JUNO.COM
>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
>>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:57:07 -0700
>>
>> >I'm not certain of this, but it seems both the Minnesota and the
>> >Ontario kingbirds may be on molt cycles reflecting an Austral rather
>> >than a Boreal breeding and migrating populations. The Minnesota bird
>> >is completing a molt and I thought that the Ontario bird may still
>> >have juvenile outer rectrices and outer primary (but not worn enough
>> >to be a year old). Better photos of each, with open wings and tails,
>> >would help determine molt progression and age. For northern Tropical
>> >Kingbirds (occidentalis) we would expect to see molt patterns like
>> >this in Nov-Dec on the winter grounds (both preformative and
>> >prebasic) and not June. Something to consider when encountering and
>> >documenting summer kingbirds in North America.
>> >
>> >Peter
>> >
>> >At 10:59 AM 7/2/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
>> >>Hey everyone-
>> >>
>> >>     I went out to chase the Tropical Kingbird that has been seen at
>> >>Murphy-Hanrahan Park south of Minneapolis/St. Paul and got a few
>> >>photos that I have posted here:
>> >>
>> >>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
>> >>
>> >>    The bird was seen off and on between about 7 am and 9:30 am. It
>> >>did not vocalize while I was there.
>> >>
>> >>Roger Everhart
>> >>Apple Valley, MN
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>> >
>>
>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
From: Brian Sullivan <heraldpetrel AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 10:13:07 -0600
Al et al.,

I've wondered the same thing, even about some of the fall birds in CA. I've
posted these before, but this individual had me thinking pretty hard about
some of the Austral forms. No conclusion though:

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15300880

Brian

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo 
wrote:

> All,
>   Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in fact
> the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long distance
> migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close to it.
> Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North
> America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what one
> characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
>    Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753524&t=s&s=11338&p=2
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird
> concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have been
> studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley where they
> occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in fall, and using
> their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in question, and then assessing
> the physical profile of each bird. As Dave pointed out, some birds fall
> into a middle ground category where the physical features are not
> definitive, and where call is needed to verify the ID. I can usually ID
> some of these in between birds as well, however, after studying hundreds of
> individuals using their bill size/length/shape proportions and their head
> shape in a relaxed mood.
>
> In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one of
> the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male Tropicals
> are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive head shapes,
> but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals in Honduras did not
> show the obvious differences that occur in some birds, but one bird in each
> pair had slight differences in bill size and head shape. The very long,
> heavy bill of this bird that does not show a deeper base is one that I have
> only seen in Tropical Kingbird, and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows
> a shorter bill that has a noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not
> approach the length and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave
> pointed out, Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown
> that rises to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth
> from front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is
> usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better words to
> describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due to the higher
> crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's. Tropical's crown is
> typically somewhat flat across the top, like the bird shown, unless it is
> agitated. I provided a link to a composite photo I put together from two
> calling birds that shows these differences in the two birds: Couch's at
> left: Tropical at right.
> 
http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Couch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html 

> .
>
> The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed birds
> that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite to show
> how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in this photo if
> you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't show forked tails, but
> square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is also helpful in eliminating
> some Couch's, but these birds with square tails usually have very short,
> thick based bills and high profile heads like the bird in my composite. I
> would not hesitate calling this bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a
> first state record usually requires some more concrete information for
> acceptance. Just for comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed
> Tropical from Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme
> Tropical's Dave speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow
> forecrown and deep head profile:
> 
http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+Kingbird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html 

>
> Kevin Karlson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ryan Brady" 
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in
> Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only
> a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did
> manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/kingbird2016
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has
> only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a
> Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species
> level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 09:01:53 -0700
All, 
 Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in fact the 
Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long distance migrants, 
perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close to it. Therefore it is 
logical to think that some of them make it to North America. Maybe? Some of 
these birds are smaller billed to me than what one characteristically sees in 
Mexico-Central America. 

   Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753524&t=s&s=11338&p=2 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET 

Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird 
concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have been 
studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley where they occur 
together for much of the year for over 15 years in fall, and using their calls 
to confirm the ID of the birds in question, and then assessing the physical 
profile of each bird. As Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground 
category where the physical features are not definitive, and where call is 
needed to verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as 
well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill 
size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood. 


In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one of the in 
between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male Tropicals are probably 
the ones with smaller bills and less definitive head shapes, but recent study 
that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals in Honduras did not show the obvious 
differences that occur in some birds, but one bird in each pair had slight 
differences in bill size and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird 
that does not show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical 
Kingbird, and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a 
noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length and 
overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out, Couch's 
typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises to a more dome 
shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from front to back compared to 
most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is usually "squarer or more rectangular" 
in shape, for lack of better words to describe a head that does not have a 
rounded appearance due to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like 
Couch's. Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the 
bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite photo I put 
together from two calling birds that shows these differences in the two birds: 
Couch's at left: Tropical at right. 
http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Couch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html. 


The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed birds that 
I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite to show how subtle 
the differences can be, but they are obvious in this photo if you critically 
compare them. Many Couch's also don't show forked tails, but square-tipped ones 
(males?), so this feature is also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but 
these birds with square tails usually have very short, thick based bills and 
high profile heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling 
this bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually requires 
some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for comparison sake, I 
included a link to a long-billed Tropical from Costa Rica that is more 
representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave speaks of, with a very long, even 
width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head profile: 
http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+Kingbird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html 


Kevin Karlson 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ryan Brady"  
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM 
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin 

We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in 
Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a 
short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage 
a bunch of images from various angles. 



http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/kingbird2016 


Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has only 
one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western and 
had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level. 


Thanks for any input you can provide. 


Ryan Brady 
Washburn, Bayfield County, WI 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 08:32:54 -0700
I concur with first-spring TRKI (nice eccentric pattern) and would 
add that it appears to be a female by the shape of the formative 
outer primary.

Peter

At 09:26 PM 5/22/2016, Tony Leukering wrote:
>Hey Ryan:
>
>First off, your bird seems to be a second-calendar-year beast, if I 
>read Pyle (1997) correctly, due to the obvious molt limit in the ss.
>
>Wing formula is useful in this differentiation, so it's unfortunate 
>that the open-wing shots aren't the best.  However, in pic 8383, the 
>right wing seems to be shown well enough for me to take a stab at 
>it.  While it's difficult to be certain where the tip of p10 is, 
>precisely, p5 seems obviously not much shorter than p6.  The same 
>p5-p6 relationship seems to be shown by pic 8353.  That should argue 
>strongly that the bird is a Tropical.
>
>Tony
>
>Tony Leukering
>currently Cut Bank, MT
>www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering
>http://cowyebird.blogspot.com
>
> > On May 22, 2016, at 21:23, Ryan Brady  wrote:
> >
> > We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior 
> shoreline in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized 
> and was seen for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware 
> it's a very difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
> >
> >
> > http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/kingbird2016
> >
> >
> > Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? 
> Wisconsin has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was 
> initially reported as a Western and had few accompanying photos) 
> and none for either at species level.
> >
> > Thanks for any input you can provide.
> >
> >
> > Ryan Brady
> > Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
> >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
From: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 15:24:54 +0000
Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird 
concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have been 
studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley where they occur 
together for much of the year for over 15 years in fall, and using their calls 
to confirm the ID of the birds in question, and then assessing the physical 
profile of each bird. As Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground 
category where the physical features are not definitive, and where call is 
needed to verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as 
well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill 
size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood. 


In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one of the in 
between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male Tropicals are probably 
the ones with smaller bills and less definitive head shapes, but recent study 
that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals in Honduras did not show the obvious 
differences that occur in some birds, but one bird in each pair had slight 
differences in bill size and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird 
that does not show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical 
Kingbird, and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a 
noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length and 
overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out, Couch's 
typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises to a more dome 
shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from front to back compared to 
most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is usually "squarer or more rectangular" 
in shape, for lack of better words to describe a head that does not have a 
rounded appearance due to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like 
Couch's. Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the 
bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite photo I put 
together from two calling birds that shows these differences in the two birds: 
Couch's at left: Tropical at right. 
http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Couch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html. 


The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed birds that 
I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite to show how subtle 
the differences can be, but they are obvious in this photo if you critically 
compare them. Many Couch's also don't show forked tails, but square-tipped ones 
(males?), so this feature is also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but 
these birds with square tails usually have very short, thick based bills and 
high profile heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling 
this bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually requires 
some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for comparison sake, I 
included a link to a long-billed Tropical from Costa Rica that is more 
representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave speaks of, with a very long, even 
width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head profile: 
http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+Kingbird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html 


Kevin Karlson 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ryan Brady"  
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM 
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin 

We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in 
Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a 
short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage 
a bunch of images from various angles. 



http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/kingbird2016 


Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has only 
one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western and 
had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level. 


Thanks for any input you can provide. 


Ryan Brady 
Washburn, Bayfield County, WI 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 04:31:15 +0000
Ryan,

In my opinion, many of the profile shots of this bird's bill are strongly 
suggestive, if not diagnostic for Tropical Kingbird. There are certainly birds 
that are tweeners in terms of apparent bill length and shape, but this does not 
fall into that category. In particular, photos 8453, 8455, 8456, 8457 and 8481 
capture what I would characterize as the classic Tropical Kingbird bill shape 
and length. To my eye, Tropicals generally show noticeably longer bills than 
Couch's and the base to tip taper is not as apparent. Couch's have a shorter 
bill that usually looks proportionally thick at the base (probably due to 
shorter overall length) and is more steeply tapered from base to tip. 


There are some other features that I think also support this being a Tropical 
Kingbird. I find that Couch's Kingbirds often appear to have a more peaked 
crown profile and are perhaps darker gray on the head with a slightly stronger 
blackish mask through the eye. This bird seems to have a flatter crown profile 
and is paler gray on the head and has a less conspicuous mask than I would 
expect to see on a Couch's. The tail also looks strongly notched. According to 
some sources, Tropicals have a more deeply notched tail than Couch's. 


For the past five years I've spent 7-9 days each November in the Lower Rio 
Grande Valley, where both species can be readily found. I've taken hundreds of 
photos and spent many hours studying both species, typically confirming 
identifications with vocalizations. Some of the other regular leaders at the 
Rio Grande Valley Birding Festival have similarly studied these two kingbirds. 
Several agree that there are some noticeable structural differences, 
particularly as they relate to bill length and shape, that can be used to 
separate many individuals of these two species with virtual certainty. I also 
see Tropical Kingbirds most years here in Oregon, where they appear annually 
during late fall. There are no Oregon records for Couch's. The fall birds we 
get typically show a bill shape and length that is near identical to this bird. 


Here is link to some specimen photos taken at Cornell. The profile shot showing 
the comparative bill length and shape illustrates what I was describing about 
the bill profile of Tropical compared to Couch's. 

http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/kingbirdsX.htm

Dave Irons


> Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 03:23:52 +0000
> From: ryanbrady10 AT HOTMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in 
Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a 
short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage 
a bunch of images from various angles. 

> 
> 
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/kingbird2016
> 
> 
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has 
only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western 
and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level. 

> 
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
> 
> 
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>  
>    
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
From: Ryan Brady <ryanbrady10 AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 03:23:52 +0000
We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in 
Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a 
short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage 
a bunch of images from various angles. 



http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/kingbird2016


Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has only 
one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western and 
had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level. 


Thanks for any input you can provide.


Ryan Brady
Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
 
   
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: RFI - Yellowthroat ID
From: Mary Beth Stowe <mbstowe AT MIRIAMEAGLEMON.COM>
Date: Fri, 20 May 2016 05:01:04 -0500
Hi, all!

FWIW, that excellent call note recording sounds NOTHING like any Common 
Yellowthroat I've ever heard, so unless there's a real difference in local COYE 
dialects, I would feel comfortable with Andrew's call (no pun intended) on that 
alone! 


Mary Beth Stowe
Alamo, TX
www.miriameaglemon.com



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Andrew Spencer 

Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 1:38 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] RFI - Yellowthroat ID

I think what is happening is that the person questioning the ID (the ebird
reviewer) saw that the book says Bahama Yellowthroat is supposed to have a 
yellow belly, and that they are used to some of the other subspecies that DO 
have a yellow belly, so they assumed that this must be a Common Yellowthroat 
because it does NOT have a yellow belly. But as you say, I believe the 
preponderance of the evidence points towards Bahama Yellowthroat. 


Hopefully I can get some more pictures of the species from the other islands 
I'll be visiting for comparison. 



Andrew

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:56 AM, DPratt14  wrote:

> Hello birders:
>
>
> What's the problem here?  It would be far more questionable to have a 
> territorial Common Yellowthroat in this location/habitat.  This bird 
> looks just like Bahama Yellowthroats, including underpart coloration,  
> I photographed in the same general locality some years ago.  Other 
> marks include the obviously enormous bill and a thin "comma" that 
> trails off the posterior lower end of the mask, unlike Common which 
> has a rounded lower rear edge of the mask.
>
> Doug Pratt
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: RFI - Yellowthroat ID
From: Andrew Spencer <gwwarbler AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 14:38:10 -0400
I think what is happening is that the person questioning the ID (the ebird
reviewer) saw that the book says Bahama Yellowthroat is supposed to have a
yellow belly, and that they are used to some of the other subspecies that
DO have a yellow belly, so they assumed that this must be a Common
Yellowthroat because it does NOT have a yellow belly.  But as you say, I
believe the preponderance of the evidence points towards Bahama
Yellowthroat.

Hopefully I can get some more pictures of the species from the other
islands I'll be visiting for comparison.


Andrew

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:56 AM, DPratt14  wrote:

> Hello birders:
>
>
> What's the problem here?  It would be far more questionable to have a
> territorial Common Yellowthroat in this location/habitat.  This bird looks
> just like Bahama Yellowthroats, including underpart coloration,  I
> photographed in the same general locality some years ago.  Other marks
> include the obviously enormous bill and a thin "comma" that trails off the
> posterior lower end of the mask, unlike Common which has a rounded lower
> rear edge of the mask.
>
> Doug Pratt
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: RFI - Yellowthroat ID
From: DPratt14 <DPratt14 AT NC.RR.COM>
Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 11:56:10 -0400
Hello birders:


What's the problem here?  It would be far more questionable to have a  
territorial Common Yellowthroat in this location/habitat.  This bird  
looks just like Bahama Yellowthroats, including underpart coloration,   
I photographed in the same general locality some years ago.  Other  
marks include the obviously enormous bill and a thin "comma" that  
trails off the posterior lower end of the mask, unlike Common which  
has a rounded lower rear edge of the mask.

Doug Pratt

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Fwd: RFI - Yellowthroat ID
From: Andrew Spencer <gwwarbler AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 13:26:45 -0400
Hi all,

I am currently birding in the Bahamas, and yesterday photographed a
territorial male Yellowthroat on Grand Bahama, in pine barrens with an
thick palmetto understory.  I identified the bird as Bahama Yellowthroat at
the time, but the ID was questioned based on the photo I posted to the
ebird list for the location.  The photo is visible here:

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29743158

The field mark cited as favoring Common instead of Bahama was the buffy
belly.  To my eye, though, the bill looks exceptionally heavy for a
Common.  In addition, the hint of yellow above the mask, what appears to me
to be a slightly more extensive mask, and (not obvious in the photo), the
bulky build and apparently larger than expected size for a Common, are what
had me calling it a Bahama Yellowthroat.  The habitat and apparent
territoriality in a very un-Common Yellowthroat setting also seemed to
support my ID.  I have good recordings of the song and contact call, though
it may be a while before I have a chance to upload those.  In the mean
time, can anyone here comment on the ID based on the photo?  I'll admit
that I have essentially no experience with Bahama Yellowthroats, so any
help is much appreciated,

Andrew Spencer

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
From: Martin Reid <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 10:59:54 -0500
Dear Julian/All,
Had a fat-finger episode with that last email - I’ll try again…

Here in Texas such a bird would be unusual but certainly not exceptional, as 
the exact pattern of the upperpart feathers is quite varied, as is the strength 
of chestnut edging to the tertials. The latter aspect is confounded by the fact 
that some LESAs retain one or more old/worn basic-type feathers well into May 
(mostly 2CY birds?) 


Regarding the pattern of the innermost greater covert:
Long-toed Stint can occasionally have a not-straight outer edge of the black 
center, albeit usually a subdued version of the typical pattern for LESA, and 
more of an indent than a notch - see examples: 


http://www.bushpea.com/bd/pg/all/l/long-toed%20stint%2005.html 
 


http://www.nabirding.com/2012/05/21/attu-may-20-return-to-casco-cove/ 
 



http://ibc.lynxeds.com/photo/long-toed-stint-calidris-subminuta/bird-shallow-water 
 


http://www.surfbirds.com/media/Photos/smalllongtoes.jpg 
 


http://alder-birds.blog.ntu.edu.tw/2012/03/08/long-toed-stint/ 
 



I’d like to ask keen peepophiles about the reverse situation: the extent to 
which they see LESAs that lack a notch on this feather (i.e. have a straight 
outer edge to the dark center of the innermost greater covert) - ? 


Thanks,
Martin 

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com 



> On May 16, 2016, at May 16, 7:22 PM, julian hough > wrote: 

> 
> Jason,
> 
> A bright bird indeed! The pattern on the face and the overall tone would 
attract attention and would likely force the consideration of a stint for many 
observers. Thankfully the pale legs would eliminate Little Stint, and really 
only Long-toed would be a consideration. 

> 
> The key feature I instantly check is the shape of the dark border of the 
inner greater coverts and tertials...if indented or wavy (like on this bird) it 
rules out the stints and pegs the bird as a Least Sandpiper without too much 
angst over other, more variable features. 

> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Julian Hough
> New Haven, CT 06519
> www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com 
 

> 
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 5/16/16, JR Rigby > 
wrote: 

> 
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
> Date: Monday, May 16, 2016, 7:24 PM
> 
> I wanted to share a bird with the
> group that Jason Hoeksema, Hal Mitchell
> and I photographed in central Mississippi on May 11 of this
> year:
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/sets/72157667600374900/ 
 

> 
> We were surveying shorebirds on a converted aquaculture farm
> that is now
> largely fallow with some shallow water and early succession
> vegetation. The
> habitat favors the "marsh-pipers" but with some exposed
> mudflats and large
> areas of shallow water. The most numerous shorebirds for the
> day were
> Dunlin (~200) but with White-rumped and Stilt Sandpipers
> also present in
> decent numbers among 15 total shorebird species. Among the
> peeps,
> Semipalmated Sandpipers outnumbered Least Sandpipers at most
> stops, though
> the latter is typically our most abundant peep. In the fall
> particularly we
> see flocks of Least Sandpipers of over a thousand
> individuals in the area.
> 
> Several of the Least Sandpipers on this day appeared to be
> in very fresh
> alternate plumage, giving them a brighter rufescent
> appearance than is
> typical. This particular individual held our attention both
> for the
> brightness of the plumage and the extent of rufous edging on
> many of the
> feathers. After much discussion we decided it was ultimately
> just a
> puzzling Least Sandpiper since structure, bill shape,
> posture, and facial
> pattern did not seem to us to favor any of the other (rarer)
> Calidridine
> species. For comparison, here is a more typical, but still
> fairly bright,
> LESA individual from the same flock: https://flic.kr/p/GaWMTq 
 

> 
> Keep in mind that the photos in the gallery above were taken
> in overcast
> conditions. We first encountered the bird in direct
> sunlight, under which
> the rich coppery tones of the plumage were most impressive.
> You can see a
> little of this in another photograph with Semipalmated
> Sandpipers in the
> foreground for comparison (focal individual distant
> center):
> https://flic.kr/p/GEj3Cw 
> 
> We found this to be a remarkable plumage, so I wanted to
> send it around to
> the group to see if it merits comment from those with more
> experience. Have
> others seen LESA alternate plumages that look like this?
> Does this seem to
> be an outlier or within normal variation? With no first-hand
> experience
> with stints, we ruled this a LESA. Do others agree with the
> identification?
> 
> Thanks for any insight you can offer.
> 
> J.R.
> Oxford, MS
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 
 

> 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 
 



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
From: Martin Reid <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 09:29:15 -0500
Dear Julian/All,
Here in Texas such a bird would be unusual but certainly not exceptional, as 
the exact pattern of the l upperpart feathers is quite varied, as in the 
strength of chestnut edging to the tertials. The latter aspect is confounded by 
the fact that some LESAs retain one of more old/wrong basic -type feathers well 
into May (mostly 2CY birds?) 


Regarding the pattern of the innermost greater covert:
Long-toed Stint can occasionally have a not-straight outer edge of the black 
center, albeit usually a subdued version of the typical pattern for LESA, and 
more of an indent than a notch - see examples: 


http://www.bushpea.com/bd/pg/all/l/long-toed%20stint%2005.html

http://www.nabirding.com/2012/05/21/attu-may-20-return-to-casco-cove/


http://ibc.lynxeds.com/photo/long-toed-stint-calidris-subminuta/bird-shallow-water 


http://www.surfbirds.com/media/Photos/smalllongtoes.jpg

http://alder-birds.blog.ntu.edu.tw/2012/03/08/long-toed-stint/


I’d like to ask keen peepophiles about the reverse situation: the extent to 
which they see LESAs that lack a notch on this feather (i.e. have a straight 
outer edge to the dark center of the innermost greater covert) - ? 


Thanks,
Martin 

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com



> On May 16, 2016, at May 16, 7:22 PM, julian hough  wrote:
> 
> Jason,
> 
> A bright bird indeed! The pattern on the face and the overall tone would 
attract attention and would likely force the consideration of a stint for many 
observers. Thankfully the pale legs would eliminate Little Stint, and really 
only Long-toed would be a consideration. 

> 
> The key feature I instantly check is the shape of the dark border of the 
inner greater coverts and tertials...if indented or wavy (like on this bird) it 
rules out the stints and pegs the bird as a Least Sandpiper without too much 
angst over other, more variable features. 

> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Julian Hough
> New Haven, CT 06519
> www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 5/16/16, JR Rigby  wrote:
> 
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Date: Monday, May 16, 2016, 7:24 PM
> 
> I wanted to share a bird with the
> group that Jason Hoeksema, Hal Mitchell
> and I photographed in central Mississippi on May 11 of this
> year:
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/sets/72157667600374900/
> 
> We were surveying shorebirds on a converted aquaculture farm
> that is now
> largely fallow with some shallow water and early succession
> vegetation. The
> habitat favors the "marsh-pipers" but with some exposed
> mudflats and large
> areas of shallow water. The most numerous shorebirds for the
> day were
> Dunlin (~200) but with White-rumped and Stilt Sandpipers
> also present in
> decent numbers among 15 total shorebird species. Among the
> peeps,
> Semipalmated Sandpipers outnumbered Least Sandpipers at most
> stops, though
> the latter is typically our most abundant peep. In the fall
> particularly we
> see flocks of Least Sandpipers of over a thousand
> individuals in the area.
> 
> Several of the Least Sandpipers on this day appeared to be
> in very fresh
> alternate plumage, giving them a brighter rufescent
> appearance than is
> typical. This particular individual held our attention both
> for the
> brightness of the plumage and the extent of rufous edging on
> many of the
> feathers. After much discussion we decided it was ultimately
> just a
> puzzling Least Sandpiper since structure, bill shape,
> posture, and facial
> pattern did not seem to us to favor any of the other (rarer)
> Calidridine
> species. For comparison, here is a more typical, but still
> fairly bright,
> LESA individual from the same flock: https://flic.kr/p/GaWMTq
> 
> Keep in mind that the photos in the gallery above were taken
> in overcast
> conditions. We first encountered the bird in direct
> sunlight, under which
> the rich coppery tones of the plumage were most impressive.
> You can see a
> little of this in another photograph with Semipalmated
> Sandpipers in the
> foreground for comparison (focal individual distant
> center):
> https://flic.kr/p/GEj3Cw
> 
> We found this to be a remarkable plumage, so I wanted to
> send it around to
> the group to see if it merits comment from those with more
> experience. Have
> others seen LESA alternate plumages that look like this?
> Does this seem to
> be an outlier or within normal variation? With no first-hand
> experience
> with stints, we ruled this a LESA. Do others agree with the
> identification?
> 
> Thanks for any insight you can offer.
> 
> J.R.
> Oxford, MS
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
From: julian hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 01:42:01 +0000
Here's the reference to a paper that mentions the previous feature and other 
good stuff: 


The identification of juvenile Red-necked and Long-toed Stints
P Alstrom, U Olsson - Brit. Birds, 1989 - britishbirds.co.uk

Julian Hough
 New Haven, CT 06519
 www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 5/16/16, JR Rigby  wrote:

 Subject: [BIRDWG01] very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
 Date: Monday, May 16, 2016, 7:24 PM
 
 I wanted to share a bird with the
 group that Jason Hoeksema, Hal Mitchell
 and I photographed in central Mississippi on May 11 of this
 year:
 
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/sets/72157667600374900/
 
 We were surveying shorebirds on a converted aquaculture farm
 that is now
 largely fallow with some shallow water and early succession
 vegetation. The
 habitat favors the "marsh-pipers" but with some exposed
 mudflats and large
 areas of shallow water. The most numerous shorebirds for the
 day were
 Dunlin (~200) but with White-rumped and Stilt Sandpipers
 also present in
 decent numbers among 15 total shorebird species. Among the
 peeps,
 Semipalmated Sandpipers outnumbered Least Sandpipers at most
 stops, though
 the latter is typically our most abundant peep. In the fall
 particularly we
 see flocks of Least Sandpipers of over a thousand
 individuals in the area.
 
 Several of the Least Sandpipers on this day appeared to be
 in very fresh
 alternate plumage, giving them a brighter rufescent
 appearance than is
 typical. This particular individual held our attention both
 for the
 brightness of the plumage and the extent of rufous edging on
 many of the
 feathers. After much discussion we decided it was ultimately
 just a
 puzzling Least Sandpiper since structure, bill shape,
 posture, and facial
 pattern did not seem to us to favor any of the other (rarer)
 Calidridine
 species. For comparison, here is a more typical, but still
 fairly bright,
 LESA individual from the same flock: https://flic.kr/p/GaWMTq
 
 Keep in mind that the photos in the gallery above were taken
 in overcast
 conditions. We first encountered the bird in direct
 sunlight, under which
 the rich coppery tones of the plumage were most impressive.
 You can see a
 little of this in another photograph with Semipalmated
 Sandpipers in the
 foreground for comparison (focal individual distant
 center):
 https://flic.kr/p/GEj3Cw
 
 We found this to be a remarkable plumage, so I wanted to
 send it around to
 the group to see if it merits comment from those with more
 experience. Have
 others seen LESA alternate plumages that look like this?
 Does this seem to
 be an outlier or within normal variation? With no first-hand
 experience
 with stints, we ruled this a LESA. Do others agree with the
 identification?
 
 Thanks for any insight you can offer.
 
 J.R.
 Oxford, MS
 
 Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
From: julian hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 00:22:06 +0000
Jason,

A bright bird indeed! The pattern on the face and the overall tone would 
attract attention and would likely force the consideration of a stint for many 
observers. Thankfully the pale legs would eliminate Little Stint, and really 
only Long-toed would be a consideration. 


The key feature I instantly check is the shape of the dark border of the inner 
greater coverts and tertials...if indented or wavy (like on this bird) it rules 
out the stints and pegs the bird as a Least Sandpiper without too much angst 
over other, more variable features. 


Hope this helps.

Julian Hough
 New Haven, CT 06519
 www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 5/16/16, JR Rigby  wrote:

 Subject: [BIRDWG01] very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
 Date: Monday, May 16, 2016, 7:24 PM
 
 I wanted to share a bird with the
 group that Jason Hoeksema, Hal Mitchell
 and I photographed in central Mississippi on May 11 of this
 year:
 
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/sets/72157667600374900/
 
 We were surveying shorebirds on a converted aquaculture farm
 that is now
 largely fallow with some shallow water and early succession
 vegetation. The
 habitat favors the "marsh-pipers" but with some exposed
 mudflats and large
 areas of shallow water. The most numerous shorebirds for the
 day were
 Dunlin (~200) but with White-rumped and Stilt Sandpipers
 also present in
 decent numbers among 15 total shorebird species. Among the
 peeps,
 Semipalmated Sandpipers outnumbered Least Sandpipers at most
 stops, though
 the latter is typically our most abundant peep. In the fall
 particularly we
 see flocks of Least Sandpipers of over a thousand
 individuals in the area.
 
 Several of the Least Sandpipers on this day appeared to be
 in very fresh
 alternate plumage, giving them a brighter rufescent
 appearance than is
 typical. This particular individual held our attention both
 for the
 brightness of the plumage and the extent of rufous edging on
 many of the
 feathers. After much discussion we decided it was ultimately
 just a
 puzzling Least Sandpiper since structure, bill shape,
 posture, and facial
 pattern did not seem to us to favor any of the other (rarer)
 Calidridine
 species. For comparison, here is a more typical, but still
 fairly bright,
 LESA individual from the same flock: https://flic.kr/p/GaWMTq
 
 Keep in mind that the photos in the gallery above were taken
 in overcast
 conditions. We first encountered the bird in direct
 sunlight, under which
 the rich coppery tones of the plumage were most impressive.
 You can see a
 little of this in another photograph with Semipalmated
 Sandpipers in the
 foreground for comparison (focal individual distant
 center):
 https://flic.kr/p/GEj3Cw
 
 We found this to be a remarkable plumage, so I wanted to
 send it around to
 the group to see if it merits comment from those with more
 experience. Have
 others seen LESA alternate plumages that look like this?
 Does this seem to
 be an outlier or within normal variation? With no first-hand
 experience
 with stints, we ruled this a LESA. Do others agree with the
 identification?
 
 Thanks for any insight you can offer.
 
 J.R.
 Oxford, MS
 
 Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
From: JR Rigby <jr.rigby AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 18:24:43 -0500
I wanted to share a bird with the group that Jason Hoeksema, Hal Mitchell
and I photographed in central Mississippi on May 11 of this year:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/j_hoeksema/sets/72157667600374900/

We were surveying shorebirds on a converted aquaculture farm that is now
largely fallow with some shallow water and early succession vegetation. The
habitat favors the "marsh-pipers" but with some exposed mudflats and large
areas of shallow water. The most numerous shorebirds for the day were
Dunlin (~200) but with White-rumped and Stilt Sandpipers also present in
decent numbers among 15 total shorebird species. Among the peeps,
Semipalmated Sandpipers outnumbered Least Sandpipers at most stops, though
the latter is typically our most abundant peep. In the fall particularly we
see flocks of Least Sandpipers of over a thousand individuals in the area.

Several of the Least Sandpipers on this day appeared to be in very fresh
alternate plumage, giving them a brighter rufescent appearance than is
typical. This particular individual held our attention both for the
brightness of the plumage and the extent of rufous edging on many of the
feathers. After much discussion we decided it was ultimately just a
puzzling Least Sandpiper since structure, bill shape, posture, and facial
pattern did not seem to us to favor any of the other (rarer) Calidridine
species. For comparison, here is a more typical, but still fairly bright,
LESA individual from the same flock: https://flic.kr/p/GaWMTq

Keep in mind that the photos in the gallery above were taken in overcast
conditions. We first encountered the bird in direct sunlight, under which
the rich coppery tones of the plumage were most impressive. You can see a
little of this in another photograph with Semipalmated Sandpipers in the
foreground for comparison (focal individual distant center):
https://flic.kr/p/GEj3Cw

We found this to be a remarkable plumage, so I wanted to send it around to
the group to see if it merits comment from those with more experience. Have
others seen LESA alternate plumages that look like this? Does this seem to
be an outlier or within normal variation? With no first-hand experience
with stints, we ruled this a LESA. Do others agree with the identification?

Thanks for any insight you can offer.

J.R.
Oxford, MS

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: A request for images of atricapillus Northern Goshawk
From: The HH75 <hhussey3 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 11:18:15 +0100
Hello all,
    I am presently doing a little bit of my own research into the
diagnosbility (or otherwise) of atricapillus Northern Goshawk versus
nominate gentilis. I have been able to source many images of birds
photographed in various European countries, but, to date, my sample size of
images of atricapillus is pitifully small. I am particularly interested in
images of juveniles, either in flight, or trapped for ringing/banding
(preferrably with at least one wing spread to show the underwing pattern),
but images of adults would be gratefully received also, in spite of
features being known that allow for their seperation (though testing the
robustness of these criteria would also be interesting. Based on online
images, however, they do seem rather distinctive).
    Please e-mail any images, links or whatever to me privately, no point
in clogging up this group!
                                   Regards,
                                        Harry Hussey, Cork, Ireland


 

Virus-free.
www.avast.com

 

<#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Within Range for NA Mew Gull?
From: Robert O'Brien <baro AT PDX.EDU>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 21:52:19 -0700
Years ago i photographed a 'mew' with a tail just like this in a flock of
100 or so at a large grassy park in flight in portland in winter.  ID
unknown.  Bob obrien. Carver.  (Slide so very hard to find).

On Thursday, May 12, 2016, Matthew G Hunter 
wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>   I've been going through "older" photos from the last few years and
> uploading some to my "old" eBird checklists for those years. I have these
> photos of a gull that I recall wondering about in the field, and it has me
> wondering now. Taken Dec 22, 2013 on the central Oregon Coast. This is a
> first-winter type "Mew" Gull. Reason for my head-scratching is the very
> banded tail. My first general impression of bird on water was a Mew Gull
> (vs Ring-billed Gull) because of darker gray mantle, generally
> non-contrasty plumage including on spread wings, brownish vs blackish dark
> areas of wingtips and tail, dull brown/gray breast and belly, and smudgy
> versus sharp contrast on the bill. But, look at that tail!!!   Is this
> "banded" tail in the normal range of variation for North American Mew
Gull?
> Other than the tail, it doesn't seem to have many other features of
> Kamchatka Gull; in other words, the body plumage seems smudgey versus more
> distinct spots/bars; although the bill is fairly robust. I have no field
> experience with any of these except Ring-billed and Mew; looking at
> Howell/Dunn Gulls.  Thoughts?
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/albums/72157667601597900
>
> Matt Hunter
> SW Oregon
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Within Range for NA Mew Gull?
From: Matthew G Hunter <matthewghunter AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 16:27:49 -0700
Hi Folks,
  I've been going through "older" photos from the last few years and
uploading some to my "old" eBird checklists for those years. I have these
photos of a gull that I recall wondering about in the field, and it has me
wondering now. Taken Dec 22, 2013 on the central Oregon Coast. This is a
first-winter type "Mew" Gull. Reason for my head-scratching is the very
banded tail. My first general impression of bird on water was a Mew Gull
(vs Ring-billed Gull) because of darker gray mantle, generally
non-contrasty plumage including on spread wings, brownish vs blackish dark
areas of wingtips and tail, dull brown/gray breast and belly, and smudgy
versus sharp contrast on the bill. But, look at that tail!!!   Is this
"banded" tail in the normal range of variation for North American Mew Gull?
Other than the tail, it doesn't seem to have many other features of
Kamchatka Gull; in other words, the body plumage seems smudgey versus more
distinct spots/bars; although the bill is fairly robust. I have no field
experience with any of these except Ring-billed and Mew; looking at
Howell/Dunn Gulls.  Thoughts?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/albums/72157667601597900

Matt Hunter
SW Oregon

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: RFI- Samuel Patten's Dissertation
From: Amar Ayyash <amarayyash AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 12:25:44 -0500
Samuel Patten published a number of papers on the gulls in the Anchorage
area. One paper I'm not able to find anywhere in the literature is his
dissertation from Johns Hopkins University on hybridization of Herring and
Glaucous-winged Gulls. I would be greatly appreciative in any help finding
this piece. Thanks in advance.

*Patten, S.J. 1980. Interbreeding and evolution in the Larus
glaucescens–Larus*

*argentatus complex on the south coast of Alaska. Ph.D. dissertation, Johns*

*Hopkins University.*



Regards,

Amar Ayyash

Orland Park, IL - USA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 08:49:47 -0700
Karen, 
 This is either a Hermit Warbler, or mostly a Hermit Warbler...but definitely 
on the Hermit Warbler side if it is of mixed genes. I see more streaking on 
this bird that I see on classic Hermit Warblers. The key would be to assess the 
back color and pattern, grayish or greenish etc. I can't get a good sense of 
that from the photos. 

 Regarding song, these birds have variable songs, as well as different song 
types. I do not think they "copy" each other's songs. Songs of Hermit vs 
Townsend's are not necessarily separable with confidence. In some areas songs 
are more similar than they should be between Townsend's and Black-throated Gray 
given that these two are not closely related. The songs are buzzy and may 
resemble Black-throated Green to some extent, but my guess is that given the 
overall noted similarity may be due to your experience with Black-throated 
Green and that this species is similar enough in some songs that it "triggered" 
the ID of Black-throated Green. There is really no natural situation that is 
likely where a Hermit Warbler may be learning songs from Black-throated Green 
in the breeding period. 


Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Karen Fung 

Sent: Friday, May 6, 2016 4:33 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo 
Gallery 


Many thanks to all who responded earlier to my queries, both on- and off-line. 
Comments from those who have spent time on the west coast and have direct 
experience studying the Hermit/Townsend's species complex were extremely 
helpful, since I have never seen a Hermit or Townsend's Warbler (or 
Golden-cheeked, for that matter...). It was especially useful to hear that 
adult male Hermit Warblers with complete black bibs can sometimes have dusky 
auriculars (one reader sent me a photo of such a specimen from a museum 
collection, showing this feature), and that the species in this complex can 
copy other warblers' songs fairly often. 


I reviewed all my photos again after reading the NYSARC guidelines for 
submitting a good report. The goal was to see if I could come up with better 
representations of the bird's plumage, specifically the dusky auriculars and 
the underside. The results are in a separate gallery: 


http://www.birdsiviews.com/Birds/Hermit-Warbler/

The photos are more heavily cropped and may not reveal anything new, but I'm 
just trying to be as thorough as possible with my documentation of the bird's 
appearance. There is one additional photo, along with some descriptive 
commentary. 


The new photos will be added to my eBird checklist (which was posted with the 
old photos, but not reviewed yet) and will be submitted to NYSARC along with a 
report. 


Feel free to share your thoughts if you feel so inclined, either on- or 
off-list. 


Thanks again,
Karen Fung
NYC
http://www.birdsiviews.com

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery
From: Karen Fung <easternbluebird AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:49:17 -0400
Thank you, Alvaro.
All three of us agreed that the back of the bird did not show any green.
It was actually the dark back that Alexis zeroed in on when he first looked
at the bird in the field and pointed it out to me, and then to Anthony who
showed up later.  The nape was black, and we could clearly see how it
tapered to a black line going up the back of the head. I don't know if the
dark back had a pattern but there was no olive tone to it from our vantage
point.  It appeared to be dark gray.  The first photo in the series shows
this the best, but a view of the full back would've been ideal.

Regarding streaking, the photo of the museum specimen of an adult male
Hermit showed streaking as well, so apparently that can occur.

Regarding song, someone floated the idea that maybe this warbler came east
last Spring and picked up the song then.  I listened to recordings of
Hermit and Townsend's on the Sibley app and then on xeno-canto that
evening, and they were totally unfamiliar to me.  I'm not sure if I
would've noticed them in the field, as listening conditions were not
optimal.

I still hope that the bird will be refound so that others can take a look
and document with more photos and some recordings.  This has been a
valuable educational experience for me, regardless of the outcome on ID.

Best,
Karen

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo 
wrote:

> Karen,
>    This is either a Hermit Warbler, or mostly a Hermit Warbler...but
> definitely on the Hermit Warbler side if it is of mixed genes. I see more
> streaking on this bird that I see on classic Hermit Warblers. The key would
> be to assess the back color and pattern, grayish or greenish etc. I can't
> get a good sense of that from the photos.
>    Regarding song, these birds have variable songs, as well as different
> song types. I do not think they "copy" each other's songs. Songs of Hermit
> vs Townsend's are not necessarily separable with confidence. In some areas
> songs are more similar than they should be between Townsend's and
> Black-throated Gray given that these two are not closely related. So that
> suggests some more complex process is going on there. The songs of Hermit
> or Townsend's are buzzy and may resemble Black-throated Green to some
> extent, but my guess is that the noted similarity you heard may be due to
> your experience with Black-throated  Green and that this species (Hermit)
> is similar enough in some songs that it "triggered" the ID of
> Black-throated Green. There is really no natural situation that is likely
> where a Hermit Warbler may be learning songs from Black-throated Green in
> the breeding period.
>    Great find, whatever it is!!!
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Karen Fung
> Sent: Friday, May 6, 2016 4:33 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated
> Photo Gallery
>
> Many thanks to all who responded earlier to my queries, both on- and
> off-line. Comments from those who have spent time on the west coast and
> have direct experience studying the Hermit/Townsend's species complex were
> extremely helpful, since I have never seen a Hermit or Townsend's Warbler
> (or Golden-cheeked, for that matter...).  It was especially useful to hear
> that adult male Hermit Warblers with complete black bibs can sometimes have
> dusky auriculars (one reader sent me a photo of such a specimen from a
> museum collection, showing this feature), and that the species in this
> complex can copy other warblers' songs fairly often.
>
> I reviewed all my photos again after reading the NYSARC guidelines for
> submitting a good report.  The goal was to see if I could come up with
> better representations of the bird's plumage, specifically the dusky
> auriculars and the underside.  The results are in a separate gallery:
>
> http://www.birdsiviews.com/Birds/Hermit-Warbler/
>
> The photos are more heavily cropped and may not reveal anything new, but
> I'm just trying to be as thorough as possible with my documentation of  the
> bird's appearance.  There is one additional photo, along with some
> descriptive commentary.
>
> The new photos will be added to my eBird checklist (which was posted with
> the old photos, but not reviewed yet) and will be submitted to NYSARC along
> with a report.
>
> Feel free to share your thoughts if you feel so inclined, either on- or
> off-list.
>
> Thanks again,
> Karen Fung
> NYC
> http://www.birdsiviews.com
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 07:16:20 -0700
Karen, 
 This is either a Hermit Warbler, or mostly a Hermit Warbler...but definitely 
on the Hermit Warbler side if it is of mixed genes. I see more streaking on 
this bird that I see on classic Hermit Warblers. The key would be to assess the 
back color and pattern, grayish or greenish etc. I can't get a good sense of 
that from the photos. 

 Regarding song, these birds have variable songs, as well as different song 
types. I do not think they "copy" each other's songs. Songs of Hermit vs 
Townsend's are not necessarily separable with confidence. In some areas songs 
are more similar than they should be between Townsend's and Black-throated Gray 
given that these two are not closely related. So that suggests some more 
complex process is going on there. The songs of Hermit or Townsend's are buzzy 
and may resemble Black-throated Green to some extent, but my guess is that the 
noted similarity you heard may be due to your experience with Black-throated 
Green and that this species (Hermit) is similar enough in some songs that it 
"triggered" the ID of Black-throated Green. There is really no natural 
situation that is likely where a Hermit Warbler may be learning songs from 
Black-throated Green in the breeding period. 

   Great find, whatever it is!!! 
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Karen Fung 

Sent: Friday, May 6, 2016 4:33 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo 
Gallery 


Many thanks to all who responded earlier to my queries, both on- and off-line. 
Comments from those who have spent time on the west coast and have direct 
experience studying the Hermit/Townsend's species complex were extremely 
helpful, since I have never seen a Hermit or Townsend's Warbler (or 
Golden-cheeked, for that matter...). It was especially useful to hear that 
adult male Hermit Warblers with complete black bibs can sometimes have dusky 
auriculars (one reader sent me a photo of such a specimen from a museum 
collection, showing this feature), and that the species in this complex can 
copy other warblers' songs fairly often. 


I reviewed all my photos again after reading the NYSARC guidelines for 
submitting a good report. The goal was to see if I could come up with better 
representations of the bird's plumage, specifically the dusky auriculars and 
the underside. The results are in a separate gallery: 


http://www.birdsiviews.com/Birds/Hermit-Warbler/

The photos are more heavily cropped and may not reveal anything new, but I'm 
just trying to be as thorough as possible with my documentation of the bird's 
appearance. There is one additional photo, along with some descriptive 
commentary. 


The new photos will be added to my eBird checklist (which was posted with the 
old photos, but not reviewed yet) and will be submitted to NYSARC along with a 
report. 


Feel free to share your thoughts if you feel so inclined, either on- or 
off-list. 


Thanks again,
Karen Fung
NYC
http://www.birdsiviews.com

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery
From: Karen Fung <easternbluebird AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 07:32:58 -0400
Many thanks to all who responded earlier to my queries, both on- and
off-line. Comments from those who have spent time on the west coast and
have direct experience studying the Hermit/Townsend's species complex were
extremely helpful, since I have never seen a Hermit or Townsend's Warbler
(or Golden-cheeked, for that matter...).  It was especially useful to hear
that adult male Hermit Warblers with complete black bibs can sometimes have
dusky auriculars (one reader sent me a photo of such a specimen from a
museum collection, showing this feature), and that the species in this
complex can copy other warblers' songs fairly often.

I reviewed all my photos again after reading the NYSARC guidelines for
submitting a good report.  The goal was to see if I could come up with
better representations of the bird's plumage, specifically the dusky
auriculars and the underside.  The results are in a separate gallery:

http://www.birdsiviews.com/Birds/Hermit-Warbler/

The photos are more heavily cropped and may not reveal anything new, but
I'm just trying to be as thorough as possible with my documentation of  the
bird's appearance.  There is one additional photo, along with some
descriptive commentary.

The new photos will be added to my eBird checklist (which was posted with
the old photos, but not reviewed yet) and will be submitted to NYSARC along
with a report.

Feel free to share your thoughts if you feel so inclined, either on- or
off-list.

Thanks again,
Karen Fung
NYC
http://www.birdsiviews.com

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Tanager ID
From: Russ Ruffing <ruff2 AT VERIZON.NET>
Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 05:16:58 -0500
 Hi All,

I'd be interested in your opinions on the ID of this tanager. The picture was 
taken on 8/22/15 and is admittedly back lit and not the greatest. I do not want 
to bias anyone by revealing the location. I have only cropped the photo, 
otherwise it is as it came right out of the camera. The one preceding it in my 
queue has been brightened a bit. 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/yawncelot/20598117398/in/datetaken-public/

thanks,

Russ Ruffing

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, BTGreen song
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:54:30 -0700
The traditional description of a Black-throated Green song could also describe 
many local dialects of the Hermit Warbler song, which is comprised of a 
sequence fast "zee" notes and concludes with an emphatic up slurred two-note 
phrase that often sounds like the"zoo-zee" ending of a BT Green. This bird 
looks like a pure Hermit with no obvious indications of hybridization. 
Geographic variation in the songs of Hermit, BT Gray and Townsend's are well 
known and persist in confounding even the the most experienced western birders 
at times. I don't think that vocalization similarity can be used as an 
indicator of hybridization within this species complex. Unless there are 
intermediate plumage characteristics, this warbler should be presumed to be a 
non-hybrid. As Kevin Karlson indicated, male Hermits can show some dark 
feathering in the auriculars. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 1, 2016, at 8:44 PM, Karen Fung  wrote:
> 
> Four photos from this morning (1 May 2016) are in this gallery:
> 
> http://www.birdsiviews.com/Birds/Warblers/
> 
> Appearance points to Hermit Warbler based on the yellow head, dark
> upperparts, dark nape, neat black triangular bib, white underparts with no
> yellow and almost no streaking, lack of yellow in the vent.  The bird had a
> yellow eye-ring, but some folks are saying that the auricular patch looks
> little dark for a Hermit with a solid black bib like this one.
> 
> The bird occasionally sang the Zee-Zee-Zee-Zoo-Zee song of the
> Black-throated Green, or some song very close to it.
> 
> I apologize for the quality of the pics, which are blurry and heavily
> cropped, but am hoping that someone who has expertise in Hermit and
> Townsend's can weigh in on whether a Hermit Warbler vocalizations ever
> approach this particular BTGreen song and if not, whether this is some sort
> of hybrid.  Hermits and BTGreens do not overlap in their breeding ranges
> and this warbler did not really show any Townsend's features, so what
> scenarios might lead to this result?  One person suggested that perhaps a
> Hermit showed up in the East during breeding season last year, which seems
> like a plausible explanation.
> 
> More info on the discovery of this bird can be found in Anthony Collerton's
> blog:
> 
> http://welshbirder.blogspot.com/
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> Karen Fung
> NYC
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, BTGreen song
From: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 23:08:44 +0000
Karen,female or young male Hermit Warblers have dark markings on the cheek,but 
the complete black throat and bold mostly yellow face suggests a male, plus it 
was singing,so probably a male.I am not familiar with Hermit song variations, 
but nothing in the photos suggests a hybrid. Looks like a good Hermit Warbler. 
Congratulations on the good photos. Kevin Karlson 

----- Original Message -----
From: Karen Fung 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Mon, 02 May 2016 03:34:20 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [BIRDWG01] NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, 
BTGreen song 


Four photos from this morning (1 May 2016) are in this gallery:

http://www.birdsiviews.com/Birds/Warblers/

Appearance points to Hermit Warbler based on the yellow head, dark
upperparts, dark nape, neat black triangular bib, white underparts with no
yellow and almost no streaking, lack of yellow in the vent.  The bird had a
yellow eye-ring, but some folks are saying that the auricular patch looks
little dark for a Hermit with a solid black bib like this one.

The bird occasionally sang the Zee-Zee-Zee-Zoo-Zee song of the
Black-throated Green, or some song very close to it.

I apologize for the quality of the pics, which are blurry and heavily
cropped, but am hoping that someone who has expertise in Hermit and
Townsend's can weigh in on whether a Hermit Warbler vocalizations ever
approach this particular BTGreen song and if not, whether this is some sort
of hybrid.  Hermits and BTGreens do not overlap in their breeding ranges
and this warbler did not really show any Townsend's features, so what
scenarios might lead to this result?  One person suggested that perhaps a
Hermit showed up in the East during breeding season last year, which seems
like a plausible explanation.

More info on the discovery of this bird can be found in Anthony Collerton's
blog:

http://welshbirder.blogspot.com/

Many thanks,

Karen Fung
NYC

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, BTGreen song
From: Karen Fung <easternbluebird AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 23:34:20 -0400
Four photos from this morning (1 May 2016) are in this gallery:

http://www.birdsiviews.com/Birds/Warblers/

Appearance points to Hermit Warbler based on the yellow head, dark
upperparts, dark nape, neat black triangular bib, white underparts with no
yellow and almost no streaking, lack of yellow in the vent.  The bird had a
yellow eye-ring, but some folks are saying that the auricular patch looks
little dark for a Hermit with a solid black bib like this one.

The bird occasionally sang the Zee-Zee-Zee-Zoo-Zee song of the
Black-throated Green, or some song very close to it.

I apologize for the quality of the pics, which are blurry and heavily
cropped, but am hoping that someone who has expertise in Hermit and
Townsend's can weigh in on whether a Hermit Warbler vocalizations ever
approach this particular BTGreen song and if not, whether this is some sort
of hybrid.  Hermits and BTGreens do not overlap in their breeding ranges
and this warbler did not really show any Townsend's features, so what
scenarios might lead to this result?  One person suggested that perhaps a
Hermit showed up in the East during breeding season last year, which seems
like a plausible explanation.

More info on the discovery of this bird can be found in Anthony Collerton's
blog:

http://welshbirder.blogspot.com/

Many thanks,

Karen Fung
NYC

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Song Sparrow Subspecies identification
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 12:12:50 -0700
I want to make people aware of a Facebook group dedicated to sharing Song
Sparrow photos and discussing subspecific id at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/489482811234717/

There's also a Fox Sparrow Facebook group at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/447117322159681/



On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Dan A  wrote:

> Good day, all!
> As a long-time lurker, I've followed many a discussion on the listserv
> with great interest and learned a lot. I finally have a bird to submit for
> subspecies identification. This Song Sparrow was photographed at Frank
> Lake, in southern Alberta, Canada in early March, and managed to
> successfully overwinter in our extremely temperate cold season at a water
> outflow channel, and was observed by several birders throughout the season.
> What caught my eye was the overall grayish and reddish-brown tones to the
> bird, which is more typical of the western subspecies complex, rather than
> the eastern Melospiza melodia montana subspecies, which is much paler and
> browner overall.
> I've got a few ideas of what subspecies this bird belongs to, but I look
> forward to your expert opinions!
> Photo 1:https://flic.kr/p/E3MXk6
> Photo 2:https://flic.kr/p/Ey3S5E
> Photo 3:https://flic.kr/p/F1aUFB
> Daniel Arndt
>
> Cell: (403) 836-7405
>
> bowvalleytours.com
>
> Flickr.com/photos/ubermoogle
>
> www.birdscalgary.com
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Song Sparrow Subspecies identification
From: Dan A <danielarndt AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 12:05:41 -0600
Good day, all!
As a long-time lurker, I've followed many a discussion on the listserv with 
great interest and learned a lot. I finally have a bird to submit for 
subspecies identification. This Song Sparrow was photographed at Frank Lake, in 
southern Alberta, Canada in early March, and managed to successfully overwinter 
in our extremely temperate cold season at a water outflow channel, and was 
observed by several birders throughout the season. 

What caught my eye was the overall grayish and reddish-brown tones to the bird, 
which is more typical of the western subspecies complex, rather than the 
eastern Melospiza melodia montana subspecies, which is much paler and browner 
overall. 

I've got a few ideas of what subspecies this bird belongs to, but I look 
forward to your expert opinions! 

Photo 1:https://flic.kr/p/E3MXk6
Photo 2:https://flic.kr/p/Ey3S5E
Photo 3:https://flic.kr/p/F1aUFB
Daniel Arndt

Cell: (403) 836-7405

bowvalleytours.com

Flickr.com/photos/ubermoogle

www.birdscalgary.com 		 	   		  
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: hawk question
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:25:14 -0700
Thanks all.  A wide variety of answers (Broad-winged, Swainson's, and
possible hybrid) but the consensus is over-exposed Swainson's in the wind,
based on the a combination of plumage features.

Here is the most detailed and informative response, from Louis Bevier:

This is a Swainson’s Hawk. The fine barring in the remiges is too narrow
for Broad-winged of any age. It’s an adult by virtue of the dark band along
the trailing edge of those remiges, and adult Broad-wings have a few pale
bars in the emarginated tips of P9-8. Swainson’s shows all dark in those
“fingers” as you can see in the photo.

Also, if an adult, then the tail is obviously wrong for Broad-winged, and
you don’t see 1st year Broad-wings ever showing the dark breast like an
adult yet with wings of an adult and tail of juvenile. Moreover the
spotting below the breast is typical of Swainson’s Hawk. An adult-ish
(looking) Broad-wing has dark spade-shaped marks or bars down there and on
the leg feathers.

I think the wings are pulled up and away from the plane of the camera,
making it look short winged (and that may have been an impression enhanced
by the wind). Everything else fits adult Swainson’s.

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Brian Sullivan 
wrote:

> Hi Steve et al.
>
> This bird is consistent with an adult Swainson's Hawk, likely female given
> the uniform brown head and breast. The strong light, and wind, are
> affecting how we perceive both its plumage and shape.
>
> Thanks
>
> Brian
>
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Steve Hampton 
> wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> This hawk was photographed April 16 near Davis, CA by Mark Sawyer.
>>
>> Expected species in this area are Swainson's and Red-tailed.
>>
>> This hawk was thought to be a possible Broad-winged, as it seemed smaller
>> than adjacent Swainson's and with widespread primaries (although it was
>> windy at the time).
>>
>> https://flic.kr/p/Gx1bY2
>>
>> Comments are welcome.
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve Hampton
>> Davis, CA
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ===========
>
>
> *Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
> www.ebird.org
>
> *Photo Editor*
> Birds of North America Online
> http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
> -------------------------------
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: hawk question
From: Brian Sullivan <heraldpetrel AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 11:15:22 -0700
Hi Steve et al.

This bird is consistent with an adult Swainson's Hawk, likely female given
the uniform brown head and breast. The strong light, and wind, are
affecting how we perceive both its plumage and shape.

Thanks

Brian

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Steve Hampton 
wrote:

> All,
>
> This hawk was photographed April 16 near Davis, CA by Mark Sawyer.
>
> Expected species in this area are Swainson's and Red-tailed.
>
> This hawk was thought to be a possible Broad-winged, as it seemed smaller
> than adjacent Swainson's and with widespread primaries (although it was
> windy at the time).
>
> https://flic.kr/p/Gx1bY2
>
> Comments are welcome.
>
> thanks,
>
>
> --
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: hawk question
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:45:01 -0700
All,

This hawk was photographed April 16 near Davis, CA by Mark Sawyer.

Expected species in this area are Swainson's and Red-tailed.

This hawk was thought to be a possible Broad-winged, as it seemed smaller
than adjacent Swainson's and with widespread primaries (although it was
windy at the time).

https://flic.kr/p/Gx1bY2

Comments are welcome.

thanks,


-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: RFI: Audio recording of Myrtle Warbler in Britain
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd57 AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 19:34:52 +0000
Hi, Everybody.


Just a quick request: Can anybody point me to a sound recording of a Myrtle 
[Yellow-rumped] Warbler, Setophaga coronata, from Britain? (Or anywhere else in 
the Palearctic.) 



Many thanks,


Ted Floyd

Boulder County, Colorado, USA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Odd Harrier in Nebraska
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 17:50:29 -0500
Hey everyone! Potential vagrants are few and far between in Nebraska spring
migration (unlike winter), but there was an interesting harrier at Waco
Waterfowl Area in Waco, NE, on April 1st.

The underwing of this female/immature harrier strikes me as having
unusually thick, widely-spaced dark bars on the primaries, and it looks
like there are only 4 bars on each primary -- potentially characteristic of
Eurasian Hen Harrier. And the wings also look a little bit large, long and
narrow to me.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157666826712212

Am I (as usual) freaking out over nothing, or could this be a (state
first) Hen Harrier?

Noah Arthur
Lincoln, NE/Oakland, CA
semirelicta AT gmail.com

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Gestalt Keys - A Possible Solution to Gestalt from Digital Images
From: Mike O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 20:06:29 +0100
Hi,

 

As everyone knows gestalt or ‘jizz’ is very hard to describe and even 
harder to nail down, especially from still digital images. I have come up with 
a solution which I think will vastly improve the accuracy of measurements 
currently taken from digital images including such standard ones as primary 
projection, bill-eye ratio, tibia-tarsus ratio and structural angle measurement 
such as the gular pouch angle used for identifying Cormorants by race in Europe 
or the Dowitcher Loral Angle used in North America. 


 

The concept is simple enough – a mask or stencil is placed over an image and 
scaled/rotated into position. Provided certain key ‘loci’ match up with 
their position on the subject image an accurate measurement is possible. If 
there is no alignment then the image us unsuitable for the test. So in that way 
the gestalt key serves not only to encourage accurate measurement but also to 
educate about the fundamental requirements and nature of the measurement 
itself. 


 

I have produced a couple of simple prototype Gestalt Keys which I have 
incorporated in the introductory post. I hope to produce better keys and make 
them freely available through the blog for people to test and critique in time. 
Hope people here find this useful. 


 


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2016/04/gestalt-gestalt-keys-introduction.html 


 

Regards

 

Mike O’Keeffe

Ireland 


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Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Techniques for assessing gestalt from photos
From: Mike O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 15:00:06 +0000
All,

 

Further thought on these techniques and also final thoughts on that incredibly 
challenging Dublin Bay Swift. 


 


http://www.birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2016/03/gestalt-limitations-of-cpa-and-3d.html 


 

Regards

 

Mike

 

From: Mike O'Keeffe [mailto:okeeffeml AT eircom.net] 
Sent: 12 March 2016 21:05
To: 'BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU'; 'Irish Bird Network'
Subject: Techniques for assessing gestalt from photos

 

Hi all,

 

We all use jizz or gestalt as part of our everyday bird identification toolbag. 
It includes elements of movement and behaviour as well as a bird’s 
distinctive size and shape characteristics. A photo freezes not only a bird’s 
fieldmarks but also it’s gestalt. Whereas we are all accustomed to readily 
identifying a bird in a photo from its fieldmarks, most however would consider 
any attempt to study gestalt through the analysis of individual digital images 
as a pretty futile exercise. Even something as apparently simple as taking 
accurate size measurements from photographs is extremely difficult due to the 
fact an image is a two-dimensional projection of the three-dimensional world. 
We cannot simply recreate that third dimension. All that data has been 
compressed and is irretrievable. We may not be able to completely unlock 
gestalt from still images but are there ways of unlocking more information from 
images than we normally appreciate? I have been trying to address this question 
in a couple of recent postings on the blog. Hope you find some of this of 
interest. 


 

Comparative Photographic Analysis (CPA)


http://www.birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2016/02/gestalt-comparative-photographic.html 


 

3D Modelling


http://www.birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2016/03/gestalt-3d-modelling.html 


 

Regards

 

Mike O’Keeffe

Ireland

 

 

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Subject: Re: "Interesting" juvenile Petrochelidon Swallow in Nebraska
From: mitch AT UTOPIANATURE.COM
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 20:37:18 -0700
Hi all,

Sorry to be sooo slow on this.  Had to mine some pix
and whip a page together...  Nothing to add regarding
the original bird in question, but below is a link to
photos and discussion of some hybrid Petrochelidon.

http://www.utopianature.com/CLAVE.html

happy hybrids,

Mitch Heindel
Utopia, Texas

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Techniques for assessing gestalt from photos
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 21:05:09 +0000
Hi all,

 

We all use jizz or gestalt as part of our everyday bird identification toolbag. 
It includes elements of movement and behaviour as well as a bird’s 
distinctive size and shape characteristics. A photo freezes not only a bird’s 
fieldmarks but also it’s gestalt. Whereas we are all accustomed to readily 
identifying a bird in a photo from its fieldmarks, most however would consider 
any attempt to study gestalt through the analysis of individual digital images 
as a pretty futile exercise. Even something as apparently simple as taking 
accurate size measurements from photographs is extremely difficult due to the 
fact an image is a two-dimensional projection of the three-dimensional world. 
We cannot simply recreate that third dimension. All that data has been 
compressed and is irretrievable. We may not be able to completely unlock 
gestalt from still images but are there ways of unlocking more information from 
images than we normally appreciate? I have been trying to address this question 
in a couple of recent postings on the blog. Hope you find some of this of 
interest. 


 

Comparative Photographic Analysis (CPA)


http://www.birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2016/02/gestalt-comparative-photographic.html 


 

3D Modelling


http://www.birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2016/03/gestalt-3d-modelling.html 


 

Regards

 

Mike O’Keeffe

Ireland


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Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: West Virginia white goose identification
From: Terry Bronson <bronsonwv AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 06:54:24 -0500
I received 7 comments in response to my recent query, with 6 out of the 7
seeing the bird as a pure Ross's Goose, so I have validated it as such.
Thanks to all for their input.

-- 
Terry Bronson
Morgantown, WV
WV eBird reviewer

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Ross's Goose or hybrid?
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 03:04:56 +0000
Hi Terry,

I really see nothing about this bird that suggests it's a hybrid. The bill may 
be on the long end of the spectrum for a Ross's, some of which have extremely 
stubby, steep-sloped bills. That said, I have photos of a number of Ross's with 
very similar bill lengths. Here in Oregon, there have been a couple of out of 
place Ross's this winter with similar bill length (with only Cackling Geese for 
comparison). Some observers who saw them were trying to call these birds 
hybrids. Contrary to what some think, Ross's can show a slight gap along the 
cutting edge of the bill where the mandible and maxilla meet. It is nothing 
like the "grin patch" of a Snow Goose. However, when seen, this slight gap on a 
longer-billed Ross's may lead some to think hybrid. When identifying a hybrid, 
there should be more than one intermediate feature and I don't see any on this 
bird. To my eye, this bird is small-headed and has a very rounded or domed 
crown profile. The bill length seems only slightly longer than its height at 
the base and the overall shape is still suggestive of a right triangle. The 
line where the feathering meets the base of the bill is quite straight and 
almost perfectly vertical. Finally, the base of the bill is grayish pink. All 
of these features point to pure Ross's in my opinion. 


In addition to the grin patch, Snow Geese have a much flatter crown profile, a 
bill that is considerably longer than it is tall (thus not suggestive of right 
triangle in shape), and a curved line where the feathering meets the base of 
the bill. The head and bill shape and features of Ross's X Snow are usually 
intermediate. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR

> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 17:24:54 -0500
> From: bronsonwv AT GMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Ross's Goose or hybrid?
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> On Feb. 27, a white goose was reported in Hardy County, WV in the eastern
> part of the state. The observer reported it as a Ross's Goose. As eBird
> reviewer for WV, I had doubts and solicited the views of other WV birders.
> The only 2 that responded thought it was a Snow X Ross's hybrid. The
> observer agreed to change it to a hybrid, but reported that an
> ornithologist from Alabama thought it was a Ross's. On Mar. 5, a very
> experienced VA birder who frequently birds in WV saw the bird and also
> reported it as a Ross's.
> 
> Because of this disagreement, I am soliciting other opinions. Ross's Goose
> is quite rare in WV, being well to the east of its normal range, but there
> have been several birds reported in recent years, as well as Snow X Ross's
> hybrids, including one a couple of months ago.
> 
> The observer posted 15 photos at the following link. There are some
> intervening non-bird photos, so just skip past them. Included are a few
> with Canada Geese in the frame for comparison.
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/89922350 AT N06/24717068813/in/dateposted-public/
> 
> I will note the following:
> 
> In the photos with the Canada Geese, the bird, to me at least, appears
> greater than half the size of the Canadas. A Ross's should be about half
> the size, unless the Canada is a real runt.
> 
> In some photos, the head appears rounded; in others more sloping.
> 
> Although the base of the bill is basically vertical, favoring Ross's, the
> top noticeably extends backward towards the eyes, which is more
> characteristic of Snow Geese.
> 
> The size of the bill appears in some photos to be larger than I would
> expect from a Ross's, being almost half as long as the distance from the
> bill's base to the nape. The Sibley Guide to Birds shows a more petite bill
> that looks be somewhat shorter than half that distance.
> 
> Some of us see a small grin patch, while others don't. There is clearly
> some blue-gray color near the base of the bill.
> 
> The neck does appear somewhat thick.
> 
> I'd appreciate any opinions from those with much more experience with
> Ross's and its hybrids.
> 
> -- 
> Terry Bronson
> Morgantown, WV
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Dark-eyed Junco with white wing-bars
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 02:43:33 +0000
Hi Paul,

Have you considered Slate-colored Dark-eyed Junco X White-throated Sparrow? 
This cross occurs with some regularity in the northeast. My friend Mark 
Szantyr, who lives in CT., has documented a couple of these. A few years back 
he wrote an informative article on this topic for www.birdfellow.com, for which 
I am the contend editor. The color and pattern in the wing of your bird, along 
with the rather bold wingbars (which are suggestive of a Zonotrichia wing 
pattern) do not fit any form of "pure" junco. Here is a link to the article, 
which includes some photos. The art in the junco plate is Mark's. He is as 
studied on the topic of junco variation as anyone I know. 



http://www.birdfellow.com/journal/2009/09/06/probable_dark_eyed_junco_x_white_throated_sparrow_hybrids 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR

> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:25:20 -0500
> From: hheveran AT HOTMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Dark-eyed Junco with white wing-bars
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Hello ID Experts,
> I observed a Dark-eyed Junco with white wing-bars at my eastern Pennsylvania 
feeders from November 13th to November 14th, 2015 (last year). I took several 
poor-to-average photos and consulted with a few experienced birders in my area. 
Their consensus was that there was not enough evidence to point to either a 
"Slate-colored" Junco with white wing-bars or a "White-winged" Junco. My Sibley 
guide says that one in 200 "Slate-colored" Juncos show prominent wing-bars. 
I'll start by mentioning the traits that point to "White-winged" Junco and then 
the traits that point against it. 

> 
> This junco was observed on the same day that the Franklin's Gull invasion 
occured, and a few other Western birds were seen in the East. The bird was seen 
the afternoon of the 13th, briefly the next morning, and has not been seen 
since. Perhaps it would have been seen regularly if it were a local bird. In my 
photos I have included a normal "Slate-colored" Junco (the first photo) for 
comparison. The bird in question seems to have a longer/larger bill than the 
junco included for comparison. This bird also seems to show a good amount of 
white in the tail, but that can't be confirmed unless I had a picture of its 
tail while in flight (which I don't have, unfortunately). 

> While observing this junco, I didn't think it was unusually large or pale 
compared to the other juncos. I don't have any side-by-side comparison photos, 
as juncos are very territorial at my feeders and prefer one at a time. A photo 
of its tail in flight would have been extremely valuable. 

> All opinions on this bird are welcome. I'm fine with an undecided answer, 
too. I am just looking for more opinions. 

> Here are the photos on Flickr:
> https://flic.kr/s/aHskpExua8
> Thank you very much in advance!
> Sincerely,
> Paul Heveran 		 	   		  
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