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Updated on Wednesday, December 17 at 02:57 PM EST
The most recently received Mail is at the top.


Araripe Manakin,©BirdQuest

17 Dec Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction) [Chuck Sexton ]
17 Dec Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction) [Jeff Gilligan ]
17 Dec Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction) [Michael Price ]
16 Dec Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction) [Jeff Gilligan ]
17 Dec Fw: [BIRDWG01] Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America [Alan Wormington ]
16 Dec Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America [Jeff Gilligan ]
15 Dec Labs that will do bird DNA analysis? [Noah Arthur ]
14 Dec Fwd: Trumpeter Swans - East Coast re-introductions and vagrancy potential [Lee G R Evans ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid ["Spahr, Timothy" ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Peter Pyle ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Suzanne Sullivan ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Suzanne Sullivan ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Suzanne Sullivan ]
11 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Larry Paul Gorbet ]
10 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Tim Janzen ]
10 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Tony Leukering ]
10 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Gary Nunn ]
10 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Leith McKenzie ]
10 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Gary Nunn ]
10 Dec Re: Nova Scotia Empid [David Irons ]
10 Dec Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels ]
2 Dec Re: Buteo [Tony Leukering ]
2 Dec Re: Buteo [Leith McKenzie ]
2 Dec Re: Buteo [Tony Leukering ]
2 Dec Re: Buteo [Leith McKenzie ]
30 Nov Haemorhous finch ID [Derek Hill ]
29 Nov Buteo [Leith McKenzie ]
26 Nov Re: DNA Analysis -- contamination? [Chris Corben ]
26 Nov DNA Analysis -- contamination? [Noah Arthur ]
25 Nov Gull for DNA Sequencing [Noah Arthur ]
24 Nov Haemorhous finch ID [Kurt Radamaker ]
24 Nov Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Laurent Raty ]
24 Nov Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll ["Vaughan, Robert" ]
23 Nov Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]
22 Nov Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]
21 Nov Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Peter Pyle ]
21 Nov Re: Skylark names ["Robert O'Brien" ]
21 Nov Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Lee G R Evans ]
21 Nov Skylark names [DPratt14 ]
20 Nov Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Peter Pyle ]
20 Nov FW:grlazaro@yahoo.es f [grlazaro ]
19 Nov Re: Another Goldeneye [Peter Pyle ]
19 Nov Re: Another Goldeneye [Tony leukering ]
19 Nov Another Goldeneye [Brad Singer ]
19 Nov Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [David Sibley ]
19 Nov Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [Peter Pyle ]
19 Nov Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [Noah Arthur ]
19 Nov Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [Tony Leukering ]
19 Nov Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [David Irons ]
19 Nov Re: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose [Ian McLaren ]
18 Nov Re: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose [Joseph Morlan ]
17 Nov Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [David Irons ]
16 Nov Re: immature hawk [Reid Martin ]
16 Nov Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
16 Nov Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [Brian Sullivan ]
16 Nov Re: immature hawk [Brian Sullivan ]
16 Nov Re: immature hawk [Bill Pranty ]
17 Nov Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [David Irons ]
16 Nov Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [Bob & Carol Yutzy ]
16 Nov New link to the Carpodacus Finch [Mary Beth Stowe ]
16 Nov Re: Falcated Duck [Tony Leukering ]
16 Nov Carpodacus Finch in South Texas [Mary Beth Stowe ]
16 Nov Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose [Ian McLaren ]
16 Nov Gallery of photos of the Oregon Tundra Bean-Goose [David Irons ]
16 Nov immature hawk [Hugh McGuinness ]
16 Nov Re: Falcated Duck [BRUCE DEUEL ]
16 Nov Re: Falcated Duck [David Irons ]
16 Nov Falcated Duck [BRUCE DEUEL ]
8 Nov Forensic Image Analysis Techniques ["Mike O'Keeffe" ]

Subject: Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction)
From: Chuck Sexton <gcwarbler AT AUSTIN.RR.COM>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:20:44 -0600
Evidence of migratory patterns might be more properly termed “non-negative” 
information, in the sense that IF a stray like a Red-breasted Goose or other 
waterfowl did NOT exhibit an expected migratory pattern/timing, it would 
properly be considered suspect. If such a stray exhibits something resembling 
appropriate seasonality of geographic movement, multiple explanations are 
available including but not limited to wild origin, flock association/adhesion, 
etc. 


Chuck Sexton
Austin, TX

> On Dec 17, 2014, at 7:09 AM, Jeff Gilligan  wrote:

> I think the arrival and departure schedule of the Red-breasted Geese is the 
least important part of any evidence to be considered. 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction)
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:09:58 -0700
Thanks Michael

I think the arrival and departure schedule of the Red-breasted Geese is the 
least important part of any evidence to be considered. 


Incidentally, I mis-spelled the name of the eastern Siberian Island. It is 
spelled "Wrangel", not to be confused with "Wrangell" Island, Alaska. 



Jeff Gilligan



On Dec 17, 2014, at 4:17 AM, Michael Price  wrote:

> Hi All
> 
> Jeff Gilligan writes: <3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule 
with the normal migrant geese.> 

> 
> So did the the escaped Northern Flamingo which escaped from the Stanley Park 
Zoo in Vancouver BC in the mid-1980's, which allied itself with a migrant flock 
of CAGO and for the next several years caused conniptions from Alaska to 
northern California. 

> 
> I saw the damn thing myself one freezingly cold January day on the far side 
of Boundary Bay. I thought why would anyone want to stick a garden pink 
flamingo way the hell out on the mudflat? And then it started to feed. 

> 
> So, and let me stress I have no horse in this race, association does not 
necessarily establish authenticity. 

> 
> best wishes
> m
> 
> Michael Price
> Vancouver BC Canada
> loblollyboy AT gmail.com
> 
> Every answer deepens the mystery.
>                          -- E.O. Wilson
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Jeff Gilligan  
wrote: 

> I should have written that Wrangle Island is in the "eastern" Russian Arctic 
- the area closer to Alaska than the western Russian Arctic. 

> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 16, 2014, at 8:28 PM, Jeff Gilligan  wrote:
> 
> >
> > The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often 
Red-breasted Geese have been recorded in North America. 

> >
> >
> > The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted Goose 
has wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley. Not 
surprisingly, the birds' provenance is being questioned. The presumption has 
been that these birds have been escapees from collections. 

> >
> > Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from Asia 
include: 

> >
> > 1.  A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the 1800s.
> >
> > 2.  That neither bird has been banded.
> >
> > 3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal migrant 
geese. 

> >
> > 4. That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (eastern Russian 
arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the Pacific 
Northwest come from. 

> >
> >
> > There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the 
Pacific States. 

> >
> >
> > My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific 
States, and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances. 
Presumably if the Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be escapees 
elsewhere in the USA. 

> >
> >
> > Jeff Gilligan
> > Portland
> >
> >
> >
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction)
From: Michael Price <loblollyboy AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 03:17:34 -0800
Hi All

Jeff Gilligan writes: <3.  That they have arrived and departed on schedule
with the normal migrant geese.>

So did the the escaped Northern Flamingo which escaped from the Stanley
Park Zoo in Vancouver BC in the mid-1980's, which allied itself with a
migrant flock of CAGO and for the next several years caused conniptions
from Alaska to northern California.

I saw the damn thing myself one freezingly cold January day on the far side
of Boundary Bay. I thought why would anyone want to stick a garden pink
flamingo way the hell out on the mudflat? And then it started to feed.

So, and let me stress I have no horse in this race, association does not
necessarily establish authenticity.

best wishes
m

Michael Price
Vancouver BC Canada
loblollyboy AT gmail.com

Every answer deepens the mystery.
                         -- E.O. Wilson



On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Jeff Gilligan 
wrote:
>
> I should have written that Wrangle Island is in the "eastern" Russian
> Arctic -   the area closer to Alaska than the western Russian Arctic.
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2014, at 8:28 PM, Jeff Gilligan 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often
> Red-breasted Geese have been recorded in North America.
> >
> >
> > The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted
> Goose has wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley.
> Not surprisingly, the birds' provenance is  being questioned.  The
> presumption has been that these birds have been escapees from collections.
> >
> > Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from
> Asia include:
> >
> > 1.  A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the
> 1800s.
> >
> > 2.  That neither bird has been banded.
> >
> > 3.  That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal
> migrant geese.
> >
> > 4.  That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (eastern
> Russian arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the
> Pacific Northwest come from.
> >
> >
> > There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the
> Pacific States.
> >
> >
> > My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific
> States, and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances.
> Presumably if the Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be
> escapees elsewhere in the USA.
> >
> >
> > Jeff Gilligan
> > Portland
> >
> >
> >
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction)
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 21:07:04 -0700
I should have written that Wrangle Island is in the "eastern" Russian Arctic - 
the area closer to Alaska than the western Russian Arctic. 




On Dec 16, 2014, at 8:28 PM, Jeff Gilligan  wrote:

> 
> The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often Red-breasted 
Geese have been recorded in North America. 

> 
> 
> The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted Goose has 
wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley. Not 
surprisingly, the birds' provenance is being questioned. The presumption has 
been that these birds have been escapees from collections. 

> 
> Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from Asia 
include: 

> 
> 1.  A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the 1800s.
> 
> 2.  That neither bird has been banded.
> 
> 3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal migrant 
geese. 

> 
> 4. That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (eastern Russian 
arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the Pacific 
Northwest come from. 

> 
> 
> There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the Pacific 
States. 

> 
> 
> My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific 
States, and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances. 
Presumably if the Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be escapees 
elsewhere in the USA. 

> 
> 
> Jeff Gilligan
> Portland
> 
> 
> 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Fw: [BIRDWG01] Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America
From: Alan Wormington <wormington AT JUNO.COM>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 03:37:52 GMT
I do not know the specific details, but decades ago (1950s?) a Red-breasted 
Goose was shot on southern James Bay in northern Ontario. The bird was banded, 
and later it was determined that the bird had escaped from a zoo on the U.S. 
Atlantic Coast (maybe New Jersey?). 


Just think if the bird had not been banded! There would have been endless 
theories proposed on why the bird was probably "wild" because it was in such a 
remote area of the continent, and associating with other geese that were headed 
to the Arctic for breeding. 


Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario




---------- Forwarded Message ----------
From: Jeff Gilligan 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 20:28:14 -0700

The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often Red-breasted 
Geese have been recorded in North America. 



The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted Goose has 
wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley. Not 
surprisingly, the birds' provenance is being questioned. The presumption has 
been that these birds have been escapees from collections. 


Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from Asia 
include: 


1.  A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the 1800s.

2.  That neither bird has been banded.

3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal migrant 
geese. 


4. That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (western Russian 
arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the Pacific 
Northwest come from. 



There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the Pacific 
States. 



My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific States, 
and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances. Presumably if the 
Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be escapees elsewhere in the 
USA. 



Jeff Gilligan
Portland

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 20:28:14 -0700
The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often Red-breasted 
Geese have been recorded in North America. 



The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted Goose has 
wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley. Not 
surprisingly, the birds' provenance is being questioned. The presumption has 
been that these birds have been escapees from collections. 


Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from Asia 
include: 


1.  A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the 1800s.

2.  That neither bird has been banded.

3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal migrant 
geese. 


4. That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (western Russian 
arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the Pacific 
Northwest come from. 



There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the Pacific 
States. 



My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific States, 
and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances. Presumably if the 
Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be escapees elsewhere in the 
USA. 



Jeff Gilligan
Portland

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Labs that will do bird DNA analysis?
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 20:41:25 -0600
Does anyone know of any laboratories that can/will do bird DNA analysis?
I've now got several interesting gull fecal samples in a -20 degree chest
freezer, and I'm trying to find out who I should contact to get them
analyzed. It would be best if it could be done somewhere in northern
California, because the legality of mailing s***t, even if it comes from a
bird, is questionable at best...

Noah Arthur, Lincoln, NE/Oakland, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Fwd: Trumpeter Swans - East Coast re-introductions and vagrancy potential
From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 15:18:57 -0500
 
  
____________________________________
 From: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERVE.KSU.EDU,  BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: 14/12/2014 19:47:54 GMT Standard  Time
Subj: Trumpeter Swans - East Coast re-introductions and vagrancy  potential


Following a severe Atlantic storm to the north of the UK, a pair of  
TRUMPETER SWANS have appeared in Suffolk (UK) and joined a 70-throng grazing  
flock of Mute Swans just inland of the seawall at Boyton Marshes. Although  
probably just coincidental, similar weather preceded the last pair I saw in the 

UK - in south Devon in February 2005 (this pair remained for about a  week).
 
I am looking towards an update from North America and Canada on the East  
Coast reintroduction of this species and how well the project is faring.  
Population numbers and migrational abilities/strategies (eg, any long distance 

movements).
 
Most birders in Britain consider this species a 'non event' and believe  
them to be escapes, with perhaps 150 or so in captivity. They have very  
occasionally bred in the wild in Britain but not recently. At least one bird is 

free-ranging in Holland.
 
Looking forward to any guidance and comments that any of you can  provide
 
Very best wishes
 
Lee Evans  

You can now follow Lee on Twitter at  LeeEvansBirding

Make your records go much further and contribute  towards the protection, 
knowledge and further education of our native wildlife  - join up to 
BIRDTRACK today - you know it makes sense -  
http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/main/data-home.jsp





Lee  G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour  Leader
General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ 
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) 
British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk_ 
(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/) 
Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information - 
http://ultimateguidingbirdwise.blogspot.co.uk/
Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements - 
_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_ 
(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/) 

Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
Western  Palearctic Bird News - 
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
Items  For Sale or Exchange - 
http://leesmemorabiliaandcollectables.blogspot.co.uk/

Local  Websites
Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Buckinghamshire  Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Birds  of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: "Spahr, Timothy" <tspahr AT CFA.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:43:09 -0500
Hi All,

First of all, this is an absolutely fascinating discussion, and it is
helping me (and others I'm sure) work through the maze of empidonax
identification.

As an eastern birder who dabbles in western birds occasionally, this bird
seems to be in the Dusky/Least pile for me.  Dusky (and Hammond's for that
matter) often appear gray-headed to me--particularly Dusky.  This bird has
that appearance to me in many of the photos, but the tail length and the
primary edgings seem to lean towards Least.  Further, the bill width seems
to indicate the bird could be a Least.  I have been burned too many times
relying on color features in photographs, and would appreciate a bit more
on structure to help me come to any sort of conclusion.  Note this is not a
knock on the photographers (I take thousands of bird photos a year), but
just a cautionary note in determining color shades from often
poorly-exposed photos of frenetic out-of-season insectivores.

So--are the tail length, apparent bill width, and primary edging contrast
inconsistent with a Least Flycatcher?

It would be great if the call notes could be recorded--that would surely
settle the Dusky/Least debate.

For posterity here is a Least Flycatcher from Wayland, MA on 7 Dec 2013
found by Brian Harris.  Xeno-Canto recording below as well.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/campephilus1/sets/72157638449638206/

http://www.xeno-canto.org/157164


Best,

Tim Spahr



On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Avery Bartels 
wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
>
> A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
> has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards
> the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
> description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
>
>
> http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/
>
>
> For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
>
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/
>
>
> I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
> western birders who have more experience with these species.
>
> Good birding,
>
>
> Avery Bartels,
> Wolfville, NS
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>


-- 
Timothy B. Spahr, PhD
Director, Minor Planet Center
Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 20:49:45 +0000
Hi,

I have nothing to add from an ID perspective. These Empids all go way over my 
head. From a photographic perspective I do have something to add. The 
differences between these images can all be explained by lighting and exposure. 


Steve Bruce's pictures:-  http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/ 
Taken in duller light than Jake Walker's shots. Ideally exposed and white 
balanced. 


Jake Walker's pictures:- 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087 AT N03/15792436220/in/photostream/ 

Much more challenging light for the photographer. Very warm white balance (low 
sun?). Also certainly taken in brighter light than SB's images (though 3rd 
image in the sequence (15360100423_cf6d5f7c13_o) is different). So the images 
suffer from motion blur, white balance adjustment and loss of tonal range due 
to the brighter light (broader dynamic range). Taking a look at the histograms 
of the two sets of images there is a small bit of clipping in the red channel 
in JW's images which will affect colour very slightly (clipping may or may not 
be occurring in the bird's plumage). 


Steve Bruce's pictures will naturally be closer to accurate but when white 
balance, exposure and contrast are all corrected for in Jake Walker's better 
exposed images the differences between these two sets of images is actually 
fairly minimal. 


Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Lethaby, Nick 

Sent: 11 December 2014 17:43
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

With regards to the NS bird, I am concerned with differences between the two 
sets of photos. Looking at Steve Bruce's pictures, I would definitely be in the 
Dusky (or possibly Hammond's/Least) camp over Gray. However (the less good) 
pictures on Jake Walker's site seem to depict a paler gray and whiter bird more 
in line with a Gray. Can someone comment on which photo set matches what was 
seen in the field? I agree with others that the videos seem to rule out Gray on 
the tail flicking behavior but it would be good to establish which set of 
photos show the bird's plumage best. 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Paul Gorbet 

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 6:27 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower 
mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight 
duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 


If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call 
notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly 
stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher. 



--
Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM

Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of Albuquerque 
NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & Linguistics) 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Avery Bartels <averybartels AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:26:58 -0500
Hi All,
 
Here are a few more shots of this bird from Rick Whitman.
 
http://rickwhitman.smugmug.com/Nature/Birds-October-December-2014/i-dprmmJt/A
 
and a short video at 50% speed:
 
http://rickwhitman.smugmug.com/Nature/Birds-October-December-2014/i-bVNxqDd/A
 
 
Good birding,
 
Avery Bartels
 
> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:42:35 +0000
> From: nlethaby AT TI.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> With regards to the NS bird, I am concerned with differences between the two 
sets of photos. Looking at Steve Bruce's pictures, I would definitely be in the 
Dusky (or possibly Hammond's/Least) camp over Gray. However (the less good) 
pictures on Jake Walker's site seem to depict a paler gray and whiter bird more 
in line with a Gray. Can someone comment on which photo set matches what was 
seen in the field? I agree with others that the videos seem to rule out Gray on 
the tail flicking behavior but it would be good to establish which set of 
photos show the bird's plumage best. 

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Paul Gorbet 

> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 6:27 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
> 
> Ive probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower 
mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight 
duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 

> 
> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empids call 
notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly 
stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammonds call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammonds is about 10% higher. 

> 
> 
> --
> Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM
> 
> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of 
Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & 
Linguistics) 

> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Avery Bartels <averybartels AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:01:15 -0500
Hi Suzanne,
 
Thanks for the comments. Regarding the NS bird it is a hatch-year, see my 
previous message to the group. Your October Least is also a hatch-year, the 
most obvious indicator being the shape of the tail feathers. In most 
passerines, including Flycatchers, hatch-years have more pointed tail feathers. 
This is apparent on your bird, especially the outermost tail feather. The 
edging of the coverts and tertials can be quite faded by now in young birds. 
Also, in the photo you link to, the edging is a bit over-exposed possibly 
creating the impression of being whiter than they are. 

 
As to why the NS bird is not a Least, much of that has been covered by Nick. 
Note how olive green the Mass. Least flycatcher is compared to the NS bird. 
Structurally, the NS bird is longer tailed and the bill is longer and narrower 
than a Least. 

 
Good birding,
 
Avery Bartels
Wolfville, NS

 
> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:22:19 -0500
> From: swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Thanks Nick and others,
> 
>  I guess some folks thought the Oct Least  I linked to was tricky. I
> certainly see Least in it also. Frankly all can be tricky to some
> degree, right? Plumage can be often unreliable. Personally I have 0
> experience with  December Leasts.  So what would be the age of the NS
> bird if a western type? I would suspect some plumage fading on some
> birds. Here is a late Oct Least from this year I'm guessing adult.
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/158043341 and
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/158043340    Note the faded plumage
> from olive to gray and the upper inner tertials grayish ( or this
> because light and  angle?) I also included links another Least from
> Nov 30 last year. This one id'ed as a  juv. and most of the discussion
> is around structure. Once again to me the structure is very similar
> between all these birds and the NS bird, but I am certainly no expert.
> The 2 bird reports are from Matt Garvey ( photos from Marshall Iliff)
> and Ryan Merrill. With out a recording I'm not sure one can id such a
> bird for sure. But still to my eyes I don't see how Least can be ruled
> out. The only feature that seems to not point to Least is the bill to
> me but hard to say for sure from photos. At any rate hope these links
> can help in one way or another.
> 
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15760774
> 
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15763596
> Cheers,
> 
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:
> > Suzanne:
> >
> > I am surprised this (= Oct Mass) bird caused a lot of debate. If I saw this 
bird in coastal California, where Least is a rare migrant, I would 
unhesitatingly identify it as a Least. Compared the NS bird, in addition to the 
shorter bill you noted, it also lacks the extensive gray of that (=NS) bird on 
the upperparts and sides of the throat and breast. This bird shows rather 
whitish underparts contrasting with dull uniform grayish-olive upperparts. This 
is how many Least look in fall to me. I would say the wings of this bird are a 
bit more contrasting as well and again like a Least. 

> >
> > Nick
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
?[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan 

> > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:14 AM
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
> >
> > All,
> >
> > I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no 
difference, except maybe bill length, between this Oct flycatcher from Mass a 
few years ago that received much attention but was ultimately determined Least. 
Wing looks virtually identical to my eyes anyway. 

> > http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/pi_late_oct_least_flycatcher
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet  wrote:
> >> Ive probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the 
lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a 
slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 

> >>
> >> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empids 
call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are 
highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammonds call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammonds is about 10% higher. 

> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM
> >>
> >> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of
> >> Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus,
> >> Anthropology & Linguistics)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Suzanne M. Sullivan
> > Wilmington, MA
> > swampy435 AT gmail.com
> >
> > Be the Voice of the River
> > http://www.ipswichriver.org
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Suzanne M. Sullivan
> Wilmington, MA
> swampy435 AT gmail.com
> 
> Be the Voice of the River
> http://www.ipswichriver.org
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:58:59 -0500
A quick note on molt - all Empids except HAFL and ACFL molt on the winter
grounds after southbound migration and thus are very worn in late
summer/fall when in the U.S. and Canada. I have seen few if any exceptions
to this (adults molting on the summer grounds or stopover areas, or
present in fresh plumage up here). Thus, virtually all fresh birds up here
in Aug-Nov are HYs, including all of the birds linked so far in this
discussion in a quick assessment.

Peter


> Thanks Nick and others,
>
>  I guess some folks thought the Oct Least  I linked to was tricky. I
> certainly see Least in it also. Frankly all can be tricky to some
> degree, right? Plumage can be often unreliable. Personally I have 0
> experience with  December Leasts.  So what would be the age of the NS
> bird if a western type? I would suspect some plumage fading on some
> birds. Here is a late Oct Least from this year I'm guessing adult.
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/158043341 and
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/158043340    Note the faded plumage
> from olive to gray and the upper inner tertials grayish ( or this
> because light and  angle?) I also included links another Least from
> Nov 30 last year. This one id'ed as a  juv. and most of the discussion
> is around structure. Once again to me the structure is very similar
> between all these birds and the NS bird, but I am certainly no expert.
> The 2 bird reports are from Matt Garvey ( photos from Marshall Iliff)
> and Ryan Merrill. With out a recording I'm not sure one can id such a
> bird for sure. But still to my eyes I don't see how Least can be ruled
> out. The only feature that seems to not point to Least is the bill to
> me but hard to say for sure from photos. At any rate hope these links
> can help in one way or another.
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15760774
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15763596
> Cheers,
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:
>> Suzanne:
>>
>> I am surprised this (= Oct Mass) bird caused a lot of debate. If I saw
>> this bird in coastal California, where Least is a rare migrant, I would
>> unhesitatingly identify it as a Least. Compared the NS bird, in addition
>> to the shorter bill you noted, it also lacks the extensive gray of that
>> (=NS) bird on the upperparts and sides of the throat and breast. This
>> bird shows rather whitish underparts contrasting with dull uniform
>> grayish-olive upperparts. This is how many Least look in fall to me. I
>> would say the wings of this bird are a bit more contrasting as well and
>> again like a Least.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>> ?[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan
>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:14 AM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
>>
>> All,
>>
>> I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no
>> difference, except maybe bill length,  between this Oct flycatcher from
>> Mass a few years ago that received much attention but was ultimately
>> determined Least. Wing looks virtually identical to my eyes anyway.
>> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/pi_late_oct_least_flycatcher
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet 
>> wrote:
>>> I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the
>>> lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having
>>> only a slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more
>>> dark.
>>>
>>> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this
>>> empid’s call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their
>>> call notes are highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic
>>> analysis software, two characteristics that differentiate the species
>>> under consideration are quite striking. The duration of the Hammond’s
>>> call is about 6 or 7 times that of a Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is
>>> about 10% higher.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM
>>>
>>> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of
>>> Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus,
>>> Anthropology & Linguistics)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Suzanne M. Sullivan
>> Wilmington, MA
>> swampy435 AT gmail.com
>>
>> Be the Voice of the River
>> http://www.ipswichriver.org
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
>
> --
> Suzanne M. Sullivan
> Wilmington, MA
> swampy435 AT gmail.com
>
> Be the Voice of the River
> http://www.ipswichriver.org
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Suzanne Sullivan <swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:22:19 -0500
Thanks Nick and others,

 I guess some folks thought the Oct Least  I linked to was tricky. I
certainly see Least in it also. Frankly all can be tricky to some
degree, right? Plumage can be often unreliable. Personally I have 0
experience with  December Leasts.  So what would be the age of the NS
bird if a western type? I would suspect some plumage fading on some
birds. Here is a late Oct Least from this year I'm guessing adult.
http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/158043341 and
http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/158043340    Note the faded plumage
from olive to gray and the upper inner tertials grayish ( or this
because light and  angle?) I also included links another Least from
Nov 30 last year. This one id'ed as a  juv. and most of the discussion
is around structure. Once again to me the structure is very similar
between all these birds and the NS bird, but I am certainly no expert.
The 2 bird reports are from Matt Garvey ( photos from Marshall Iliff)
and Ryan Merrill. With out a recording I'm not sure one can id such a
bird for sure. But still to my eyes I don't see how Least can be ruled
out. The only feature that seems to not point to Least is the bill to
me but hard to say for sure from photos. At any rate hope these links
can help in one way or another.

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15760774

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15763596
Cheers,

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:
> Suzanne:
>
> I am surprised this (= Oct Mass) bird caused a lot of debate. If I saw this 
bird in coastal California, where Least is a rare migrant, I would 
unhesitatingly identify it as a Least. Compared the NS bird, in addition to the 
shorter bill you noted, it also lacks the extensive gray of that (=NS) bird on 
the upperparts and sides of the throat and breast. This bird shows rather 
whitish underparts contrasting with dull uniform grayish-olive upperparts. This 
is how many Least look in fall to me. I would say the wings of this bird are a 
bit more contrasting as well and again like a Least. 

>
> Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
?[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan 

> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:14 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
>
> All,
>
> I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no difference, 
except maybe bill length, between this Oct flycatcher from Mass a few years ago 
that received much attention but was ultimately determined Least. Wing looks 
virtually identical to my eyes anyway. 

> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/pi_late_oct_least_flycatcher
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet  wrote:
>> I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the 
lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a 
slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 

>>
>> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s 
call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are 
highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher. 

>>
>>
>> --
>> Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM
>>
>> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of
>> Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus,
>> Anthropology & Linguistics)
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Suzanne M. Sullivan
> Wilmington, MA
> swampy435 AT gmail.com
>
> Be the Voice of the River
> http://www.ipswichriver.org
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



-- 
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Avery Bartels <averybartels AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 12:10:53 -0600
Hi Nick,

The lighting in pretty much all of both sets of pics is not great. Some of 
Jake's are a bit over exposed, Bruces in lowish light. From my personal 
experience with Dusky Flycartchers (I grew up in BC and have banded lots) I 
would say that this bird was on the paler end of the spectrum but by no 
means unusually pale for a DUFL. I would encourage looking beyond 
colouration and focussing more on other relevant field marks and shape etc.

My experience of Gray Flycatcher is extremely limited so I cant comment too 
much in regards to them.

Good birding,

Avery Bartels,
Wolfville, NS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Avery Bartels <averybartels AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:56:27 -0600
Hi All,

Thanks for all your responses. The general consensus seems to be that this 
is a Dusky Flycatcher. Having personally seen and banded lots of DUFL, HAFL 
and LEFL in BC, the latter two were removed from consideration (in my mind 
at least) from the get-go. Structurally, the bird in question was simply 
too elongated, with a relatively long tail, and incorrect wing formula for 
either LEFL or HAFL. The call was also clearly not that of a HAFL. 

For interests sake it is worth pointing out this bird is a hatch-year (born 
this year). This has been independently noted by others. See the rather 
pointed rectrices as well as the fact that the greater coverts have a 
moderate amount of wear. An adult would have just finished it's moult and 
be very fresh. Alternately, if it had delayed it's moult due to the stress 
of surviving in inclement weather conditions since arriving, it would be 
extremely worn all over.

If anyone has any additional comments about this bird that would be great. 
The species that few of us out here seem to be familiar enough with is 
Gray, which I think was a contributing factor to the ID difficulties.

Thanks again and good birding!

Avery Bartels,
Wolfville, NS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:42:35 +0000
With regards to the NS bird, I am concerned with differences between the two 
sets of photos. Looking at Steve Bruce's pictures, I would definitely be in the 
Dusky (or possibly Hammond's/Least) camp over Gray. However (the less good) 
pictures on Jake Walker's site seem to depict a paler gray and whiter bird more 
in line with a Gray. Can someone comment on which photo set matches what was 
seen in the field? I agree with others that the videos seem to rule out Gray on 
the tail flicking behavior but it would be good to establish which set of 
photos show the bird's plumage best. 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Paul Gorbet 

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 6:27 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower 
mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight 
duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 


If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call 
notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly 
stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher. 



--
Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM

Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of Albuquerque 
NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & Linguistics) 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:41:10 +0000
Suzanne:

I am surprised this (= Oct Mass) bird caused a lot of debate. If I saw this 
bird in coastal California, where Least is a rare migrant, I would 
unhesitatingly identify it as a Least. Compared the NS bird, in addition to the 
shorter bill you noted, it also lacks the extensive gray of that (=NS) bird on 
the upperparts and sides of the throat and breast. This bird shows rather 
whitish underparts contrasting with dull uniform grayish-olive upperparts. This 
is how many Least look in fall to me. I would say the wings of this bird are a 
bit more contrasting as well and again like a Least. 


Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
?[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan 

Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:14 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

All,

I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no difference, 
except maybe bill length, between this Oct flycatcher from Mass a few years ago 
that received much attention but was ultimately determined Least. Wing looks 
virtually identical to my eyes anyway. 

http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/pi_late_oct_least_flycatcher


On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet  wrote:
> I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower 
mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight 
duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 

>
> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call 
notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly 
stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher. 

>
>
> --
> Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM
>
> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of 
> Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus, 
> Anthropology & Linguistics)
>
>



--
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Suzanne Sullivan <swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:21:11 -0500
PS..... I also did not mention, Least Flycatchers pump tail upward and
flick wings.



-- 
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Suzanne Sullivan <swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:13:31 -0500
All,

I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no
difference, except maybe bill length,  between this Oct flycatcher
from Mass a few years ago that received much attention but was
ultimately determined Least. Wing looks virtually identical to my eyes
anyway.
http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/pi_late_oct_least_flycatcher


On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet  wrote:
> I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower 
mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight 
duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 

>
> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call 
notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly 
stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher. 

>
>
> --
> Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM
>
> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of 
Albuquerque NM since 1979) 

> University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & Linguistics)
>
>



-- 
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435 AT gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Larry Paul Gorbet <lgorbet AT UNM.EDU>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 02:26:49 +0000
I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower 
mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight 
duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark. 


If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call 
notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly 
stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two 
characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite 
striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a 
Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher. 



--
Larry Gorbet       Albuquerque NM

Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of Albuquerque 
NM since 1979) 

University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & Linguistics)


Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Tim Janzen <tjanzen AT COMCAST.NET>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:48:38 -0800
Dear Avery,
I agree with Dave that Gray Flycatcher is not an option for this bird.
However, I don't feel comfortable eliminating Dusky.  The bird doesn't show
as much orange on the lower mandible as I would expect for a Dusky
Flycatcher, but the bill seems large for a Hammond's Flycatcher.  The
primary projection seems relatively short to my eye.  Do you have any photos
that show the underside of the bill well?
Sincerely,
Tim Janzen
Portland, OR

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:11 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

The primary projection on this bird appears to be much too long for both
Dusky and Gray and the tail flick isn't right for either species. To my eye,
this bird is a rather typical looking Hammond's Flycatcher.

Dave Irons

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:35:36 -0500
 All:

I posted a comment on the cited website with, essentially, all points raised by 
Gary noted. I could not discern bill pattern in the bird, as the underside of 
the mandible is not particularly visible in any still nor in any video. The 
extreme dullness of the bird, particularly the face pattern, and the grayness 
of the plumage should rule out any Hammond's Fly. That is because all should be 
in relatively fresh plumage now, unlike both Dusky and Gray, which conduct 
their preformative and prebasic molts on winter grounds (Hammond's prebasic is 
conducted on breeding grounds). Additionally, as noted by Gary, the call note 
absolutely rules out Hammond's (assuming that it was heard and assessed 
correctly). The tail action ABSOLUTELY rules out Gray. 


Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Nunn 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Wed, Dec 10, 2014 5:50 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid


Hi Avery,

I see both Gray and Dusky regularly here in San Diego and the tail action
of this bird, in the videos available, points to it being a Dusky
Flycatcher.  Typical tail action of Gray Flycatcher is languid downward
clocking only with a slightly faster raise of the tail back to the
"relaxed" or normal posture.  The tail may overshoot the "relaxed" posture
very slightly but it never flicks up strongly.  The speed of the tail
movement in Gray, I mean physically as the tail goes down and back up, is
noticeably slower also than the faster twitchy tail movements of Dusky.  In
addition the Gray Flycatcher does not flick its wings while clocking the
tail down or back up, at least when it is relaxed and moving around feeding
and not alarmed.  In fact the wings on Gray don't seem to move a whole lot
while the bird is perched, which adds to the strange impression of the tail
clocking downwards in almost robot like fashion.  In my experience if you
watch a Gray Flycatcher it will eventually start down clocking the tail, it
is not often that I see one and there is no motion of the tail.  The two
species are quite easy to separate based on behavior differences.

In terms of appearance the Gray Flycatcher is decidedly frosty or glaucous
looking in plumage compared to all other Empidonax.  They can look quite
ghostly sitting in a leafless bush for example, with a strong component of
grayish-white to the plumage tone.  The name is appropriate!  Your
flycatcher has warmer color tones and I believe possibly some patches of
fresh brownish-olive body plumage which are more strongly colored, pointing
to it being a Dusky.

Least Flycatcher can be eliminated on wing coloration/contrast and
additionally its more rapid whitting, repeated in short bursts unlike both
Gray and Dusky which tend to make intermittent single whit calls.

Lower mandible color is of some use but Dusky has variable extent of dusky
coloration on the lower mandible bill tip and strong light illumination can
fool you into thinking there is not much dark there. So the field mark can
look to overlap sometimes if only a small darker tip is noticed.  Gray
always has just a small dark tip to the lower mandible but this field mark
is tricky to see and actually quite difficult to photograph effectively
also due to the fact that many undersides of Empid bills in photographs are
strongly illuminated from above.  I would rely on this field mark carefully
only with good photographs, for example under a high dense tree canopy with
the bird sitting lower and above you.

Gray Flycatcher bill size is decidedly stronger (larger?) looking than
Dusky and the head shape has subtle shape difference too, I believe more
elongated front to back than Dusky producing a nicer oval impression versus
a more rounded look of Dusky.  Both species have generous hooks on the
upper mandible tip which in very high-def photos is useful to separate from
Hammond's which, "in life" (not a museum tray, I think all Empids actually
have hooks on the tip), holds its bill tips closer matched.  This can be
useful if you lack a good primary projection photograph of a Hammond's for
example.

I have some extensive series of photographs of Gray and Dusky on my blog.
You can see a good example of the tail clocking action in Gray Flycatcher
in the last few photographs here - tail relaxed, tail down
http://www.sandiegobirding.com/?p=4070

In my opinion this is a Dusky Flycatcher.

Gary Nunn,
San Diego

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Avery Bartels 
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
> A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
> has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards
> the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
> description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
>
>
> http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/
>
>
> For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
>
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/
>
>
> I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
> western birders who have more experience with these species.
>
> Good birding,
>
>
> Avery Bartels,
> Wolfville, NS
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Gary Nunn

*San Diego Birding - my blog *
garybnunn AT gmail.com
Mobile: 650-305-0029

San Diego Field Ornithologists 
President & Program Chair

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Gary Nunn <garybnunn AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:23:24 -0800
Primary projection is quite difficult to estimate from photographs of
Empids.  Whether you are looking up or down at the bird, and very
importantly if the bird is dropping its wings or has them more rested on
the back and uppertail coverts. In a good series of shots of a Hammond's
you could expect to end up with a few that look clearly to have long
primary projection like this for example
http://www.sandiegobirding.com/?p=2518

Hammond's Flycatcher can be eliminated on call since it does not make the
"whit" call described but instead has a more piercing "peek", or "pip"
which it usually emits in excited bursts, particularly around other
Empids.  Always hard to locate that call if the bird is not visible!

Gary Nunn,
San Diego

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 2:10 PM, David Irons  wrote:

> The primary projection on this bird appears to be much too long for both
> Dusky and Gray and the tail flick isn't right for either species. To my
> eye, this bird is a rather typical looking Hammond's Flycatcher.
>
> Dave Irons
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 10, 2014, at 1:16 PM, "Avery Bartels" 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> >
> > A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
> > has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning
> towards
> > the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
> > description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
> >
> >
> > http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/
> >
> >
> > For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
> >
> >
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/
> >
> >
> > I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
> > western birders who have more experience with these species.
> >
> > Good birding,
> >
> >
> > Avery Bartels,
> > Wolfville, NS
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Gary Nunn

*San Diego Birding - my blog *
garybnunn AT gmail.com
Mobile: 650-305-0029

San Diego Field Ornithologists 
President & Program Chair

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Leith McKenzie <loinneilceol AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 23:19:13 +0000
The ratio of the primary extension to the extension of the rectrices beyond the 
primary tips is approximately 3. This ration fits Hammond's Flycatcher.  Hatch 
year Hammond's Flycatcher can show a fully colored lower mandible. The general 
coloration of the bird also fits Hammond's Flycatcher. And the bird has the 
short-tailed appearance of a Hammond's.  


Sincerely  

Leith  
   



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.” 


Jonathan Livingston Seagull
      From: Avery Bartels 
 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 12:50 PM
 Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
   
Hi All,


A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird 
has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards 
the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a 
description of the history of the sighting on his page below.


http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/


For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/


I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from 
western birders who have more experience with these species.

Good birding,


Avery Bartels,
Wolfville, NS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Gary Nunn <garybnunn AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:48:51 -0800
Hi Avery,

I see both Gray and Dusky regularly here in San Diego and the tail action
of this bird, in the videos available, points to it being a Dusky
Flycatcher.  Typical tail action of Gray Flycatcher is languid downward
clocking only with a slightly faster raise of the tail back to the
"relaxed" or normal posture.  The tail may overshoot the "relaxed" posture
very slightly but it never flicks up strongly.  The speed of the tail
movement in Gray, I mean physically as the tail goes down and back up, is
noticeably slower also than the faster twitchy tail movements of Dusky.  In
addition the Gray Flycatcher does not flick its wings while clocking the
tail down or back up, at least when it is relaxed and moving around feeding
and not alarmed.  In fact the wings on Gray don't seem to move a whole lot
while the bird is perched, which adds to the strange impression of the tail
clocking downwards in almost robot like fashion.  In my experience if you
watch a Gray Flycatcher it will eventually start down clocking the tail, it
is not often that I see one and there is no motion of the tail.  The two
species are quite easy to separate based on behavior differences.

In terms of appearance the Gray Flycatcher is decidedly frosty or glaucous
looking in plumage compared to all other Empidonax.  They can look quite
ghostly sitting in a leafless bush for example, with a strong component of
grayish-white to the plumage tone.  The name is appropriate!  Your
flycatcher has warmer color tones and I believe possibly some patches of
fresh brownish-olive body plumage which are more strongly colored, pointing
to it being a Dusky.

Least Flycatcher can be eliminated on wing coloration/contrast and
additionally its more rapid whitting, repeated in short bursts unlike both
Gray and Dusky which tend to make intermittent single whit calls.

Lower mandible color is of some use but Dusky has variable extent of dusky
coloration on the lower mandible bill tip and strong light illumination can
fool you into thinking there is not much dark there. So the field mark can
look to overlap sometimes if only a small darker tip is noticed.  Gray
always has just a small dark tip to the lower mandible but this field mark
is tricky to see and actually quite difficult to photograph effectively
also due to the fact that many undersides of Empid bills in photographs are
strongly illuminated from above.  I would rely on this field mark carefully
only with good photographs, for example under a high dense tree canopy with
the bird sitting lower and above you.

Gray Flycatcher bill size is decidedly stronger (larger?) looking than
Dusky and the head shape has subtle shape difference too, I believe more
elongated front to back than Dusky producing a nicer oval impression versus
a more rounded look of Dusky.  Both species have generous hooks on the
upper mandible tip which in very high-def photos is useful to separate from
Hammond's which, "in life" (not a museum tray, I think all Empids actually
have hooks on the tip), holds its bill tips closer matched.  This can be
useful if you lack a good primary projection photograph of a Hammond's for
example.

I have some extensive series of photographs of Gray and Dusky on my blog.
You can see a good example of the tail clocking action in Gray Flycatcher
in the last few photographs here - tail relaxed, tail down
http://www.sandiegobirding.com/?p=4070

In my opinion this is a Dusky Flycatcher.

Gary Nunn,
San Diego

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Avery Bartels 
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
> A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
> has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards
> the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
> description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
>
>
> http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/
>
>
> For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
>
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/
>
>
> I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
> western birders who have more experience with these species.
>
> Good birding,
>
>
> Avery Bartels,
> Wolfville, NS
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Gary Nunn

*San Diego Birding - my blog *
garybnunn AT gmail.com
Mobile: 650-305-0029

San Diego Field Ornithologists 
President & Program Chair

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Nova Scotia Empid
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:10:37 -0800
The primary projection on this bird appears to be much too long for both
Dusky and Gray and the tail flick isn't right for either species. To my eye, 
this bird is a rather typical looking Hammond's Flycatcher. 


Dave Irons

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 10, 2014, at 1:16 PM, "Avery Bartels"  wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> 
> A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird 
> has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards 
> the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a 
> description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
> 
> 
> http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/
> 
> 
> For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
> 
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/
> 
> 
> I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from 
> western birders who have more experience with these species.
> 
> Good birding,
> 
> 
> Avery Bartels,
> Wolfville, NS
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
From: Avery Bartels <averybartels AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:50:53 -0600
Hi All,


A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird 
has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards 
the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a 
description of the history of the sighting on his page below.


http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/12/09/a-december-empid/


For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/8712087%40N03/


I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from 
western birders who have more experience with these species.

Good birding,


Avery Bartels,
Wolfville, NS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Buteo
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 13:45:34 -0500
 Hi all:

Ah, I somehow missed that. However, it does not at all change my assessment of 
the species. Being July, the bird is almost certainly in wing molt, so the 
longest primaries may well not be full-grown or even present, which can greatly 
alter wingtip shape and length. 


Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Leith McKenzie 
To: Tony Leukering ; BIRDWG01 
Sent: Tue, Dec 2, 2014 1:41 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo



Thanks for the information.


Just to be clear, the assessment that the tail tip extends ~1 inch beyond the 
end of the primaries, is based on by observation of the bird in the field with 
binoculars. This fact is what peaked my interest in this bird in the first 
place. 

 

 
 



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.” 


Jonathan Livingston Seagull

  
 
 
 
   From: Tony Leukering 
 To: loinneilceol AT yahoo.com; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 10:31 AM
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo
  
 


All:

I believe that this is a dark Swainson's Hawk.  My rationale follows.

 
1) We cannot accurately assess wing length, because the tips are hidden by the 
tail, though there is some suggestion that, perhaps, one wingtip barely extends 
beyond the tail tip. 


2) If a Swainson's, this bird is probably a year old or so, as fresh juveniles 
(of whatever color) have obvious pale fringing to back feathers, scapulars, and 
wing coverts that this bird lacks. Also, the appearance of the bird's plumage 
is just too messy for the bird to be older. That is, it lacks the smooth, 
concolorousness, particularly on the underparts, of an adult. 


3) A Red-tailed Hawk of this general coloration might be a rufous 'morph' (I'm 
not sure that this term is entirely appropriate for either Red-taileds or, 
particularly, Swainson's hawks). If so, a juvenile of such would show obvious 
streaking below and, again, extensive pale fringing of upperparts feathers. If 
an adult, it would show a wide black belly contrasting with a dark rufous 
chest. This bird shows neither underparts coloration/pattern, nor is the its 
coloration at all intermediate between the two, so we can rule out an immature 
rufous Red-tailed in transition to adult plumage. If it were a dark 'morph' 
Red-tailed, it would have darker body plumage, regardless of the age. Finally, 
as noted by Leith, the bird does not sport any obvious pale coloration on the 
scapulars, which should rule out just about any form of Red-tailed Hawk. 


4) Broad-winged Hawk is a large-headed, chunky raptor that does not at all fit 
this bird's shape. Additionally, in the 100s of 1000s of Broad-wingeds that 
I've seen, I've never seen one with anything like this coloration, and I've 
seen >130 dark Broad-wingeds. 


5) Ferruginous and Rough-legged hawks are right out, as are all of the 
southern, range-restricted buteos. 


6) There really is not a northern ABA-area buteo other than Swainson's that 
sports the somewhat-small-headed, attenuated rear-end look of the bird in 
question. The attenuated look in Swainson's is created by the combination of 
both length (long) AND width (narrow) of the tail, as well as the shape of the 
lower end of the body. Red-tailed Hawk has a larger, rounder head with a 
more-prominent bill and an overall appearance that can only rarely be termed 
'svelte.' 


7) Finally, though non-definitive, the barring on the bird's tail is suggestive 
of Swainson's in that the individual bars do not reach the inner edge of the 
feathers AND that the shape is somewhat suggestive of that silly 'M' pattern 
that untalented or impatient artists draw when putting flying gulls into a 
scene. The barring on Red-taileds tends to be straight across the feather and 
reaching both edges of the feather. There are certainly contrary examples in 
both species, however. 


This bird provides yet another example of why I think that 'morph' is not a 
useful or accurate term to be used in Swainson's Hawk. Though the light (and 
most-numerous) end of the color spectrum exhibited by the species' plumage 
might be at least somewhat distinct and diagnosable, I've never been able to 
find a line between 'intermediate' and 'dark' in the species, and any line 
between 'intermediate' and 'light' is also fairly arbitrary. Less so, perhaps, 
than the other line, but still arbitrary, in my opinion. 


Respectfully,

Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 





-----Original Message-----
From: Leith McKenzie 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Tue, Dec 2, 2014 12:43 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo


Here is some thoughts/discussion about the bird with colleague Barry McKenzie.

From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  
 Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 3:14 PM
 Subject: Re: Hawk Pics
Well! This is a interesting bird.There are so many sub-types of RTHA that it 
takes a dissertation to sort them out. BWHA is simpler.Too bad you don’t have 
a 

good size reference in the photos. Remember how big that snag is? Go back and 
measure it? Ha!
I’ve been pouring over the descriptions and images in Wheeler (Raptors of 
Western North America). Haven’t entered the black hole of online research.
Overall, my impression is that this bird is most likely a juv Western, 
Intermediate form of RTHA (B. j. calurus). The bird is so dark overall, that 
subtle features are just not available. Can’t see color differences/spots on 
the 

secondaries. The narrow barring on the undertail is consistent with RTHA as 
well. The only thing against that is the apparent bright yellowish cere 
(typically “greenish” on juv B. j. calurus).
Juv BWHA should have a heavier terminal band on the tail. The yellowish cere is 

not described on BWHA that I can find…but a photo shows what appears as a 
yellowish cere — described as “pale lores”. Hmm. That’s on a juv BWHA 
of the 

“dark morph, streaked type” subspecies.
I approach the question of a rarity with caution: you gotta have unequivocal 
evidence to truely separate it from a common local species. So, this individual 

is ambiguous, but I think the bulk of evidence says RTHA.  On Nov 29, 2014, at 
3:35 PM, Leith McKenzie  wrote:
Hi Barry
I think Red-tailed is ruled out by the lack of scalloping on the upperparts (no 

v pattern) and the short primaries. Also, juvenile Red-tails are depicted with 
yellow eyes (is that the case in Wheeler) In the field, my first view of the 
bird was from the side/back with mostly the uniform dark brown upperparts 
showing, and my immediate reaction was Swainson's Hawk.  But I think that 
Swainson's is ruled out by the short primaries alone; also the white feathers 
mottling the underparts is not typical for Swainson's.  I am not confident the 
bird can be identified from the pics, and I had no other views as the bird did 
not fly.
Some of the key points are: primaries well short (~1inch) of tail tip, dark 
eyes, white feathers mixed in brown underparts, uniform dark brown upperparts.

As far as Broad-winged Hawk in Oregon goes, I think that it is recorded 
annually 

(or almost) in Oregon by the Hawk Watch folks, and I have 4 previous records.  
So it is not that Broad-winged Hawk would be that newsworthy, but a Juvenile 
Broad-winged on July 16 would pose the question of breeding for the species in 
Oregon, which is why I think the bird may be of scientific interest.
From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  

 Swainson’s, huh?A first impression can be valuable. A juv SWHA (dark morph) 
does indeed fit many of the features in your photos: - yellow cere - narrow 
banding on tail and undertail coverts
I see what you mean about the short primaries…does it make a difference that 
your photo bird was in July? Are the primaries still growing? Wheeler has 
photos 

of juv birds in Sept that show longer primaries (as you’d expect). Also: 
could 

the apparent yellow cere be a trick of the light? If it’s a true yellow 
color, 

that narrows things down to Swainson’s or Ferruginous…and the undertail 
isn’t 

right for FEHA (should be pale/plain with a weak sub-terminal band and weak 
gray 

banding). Wheeler has some photos of juv dark morph FEHA that shows a very dark 

chest/belly with just a bit of white — not as much as in your photos.
So…gee…I dunno. It sure could be SWHA, especially if the yellow cere is 
real and 

the primary length is variable in a July juv bird. I don’t think we should 
discount your real-time first impression.Although I said my vote went to 
Red-tailed earlier, now I’m not so sure. I think the photos just don’t have 

enough detail or angles.
Cool.
Barry
If it is a hatch year bird, the primaries should be fully grown.  For those of 
us in the "morphology trumps plumage camp" the fact that the primaries are well 

short of the tail tip is key.  Yep, I agree that the photos do not provide for 
me enough information, which I was hoping someone my have firsthand experience 
with birds showing similar coloration to the underparts.
Leithhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/30397515 AT N07/sets/72157649106012508/

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“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull  



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 




 
 
  


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Buteo
From: Leith McKenzie <loinneilceol AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 18:41:09 +0000
Thanks for the information.
Just to be clear, the assessment that the tail tip extends ~1 inch beyond the 
end of the primaries, is based on by observation of the bird in the field with 
binoculars.  This fact is what peaked my interest in this bird in the first 
place.   




“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.” 


Jonathan Livingston Seagull
      From: Tony Leukering 
 To: loinneilceol AT yahoo.com; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
 Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 10:31 AM
 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo
   
All:

I believe that this is a dark Swainson's Hawk.  My rationale follows.
 
1) We cannot accurately assess wing length, because the tips are hidden by the 
tail, though there is some suggestion that, perhaps, one wingtip barely extends 
beyond the tail tip. 


2) If a Swainson's, this bird is probably a year old or so, as fresh juveniles 
(of whatever color) have obvious pale fringing to back feathers, scapulars, and 
wing coverts that this bird lacks.  Also, the appearance of the bird's plumage 
is just too messy for the bird to be older.  That is, it lacks the smooth, 
concolorousness, particularly on the underparts, of an adult. 


3) A Red-tailed Hawk of this general coloration might be a rufous 'morph' (I'm 
not sure that this term is entirely appropriate for either Red-taileds or, 
particularly, Swainson's hawks).  If so, a juvenile of such would show obvious 
streaking below and, again, extensive pale fringing of upperparts feathers.  
If an adult, it would show a wide black belly contrasting with a dark rufous 
chest.  This bird shows neither underparts coloration/pattern, nor is the its 
coloration at all intermediate between the two, so we can rule out an immature 
rufous Red-tailed in transition to adult plumage.  If it were a dark 'morph' 
Red-tailed, it would have darker body plumage, regardless of the age.  
Finally, as noted by Leith, the bird does not sport any obvious pale coloration 
on the scapulars, which should rule out just about any form of Red-tailed Hawk. 


4) Broad-winged Hawk is a large-headed, chunky raptor that does not at all fit 
this bird's shape.  Additionally, in the 100s of 1000s of Broad-wingeds that 
I've seen, I've never seen one with anything like this coloration, and I've 
seen >130 dark Broad-wingeds. 


5) Ferruginous and Rough-legged hawks are right out, as are all of the 
southern, range-restricted buteos. 


6) There really is not a northern ABA-area buteo other than Swainson's that 
sports the somewhat-small-headed, attenuated rear-end look of the bird in 
question.  The attenuated look in Swainson's is created by the combination of 
both length (long) AND width (narrow) of the tail, as well as the shape of the 
lower end of the body.  Red-tailed Hawk has a larger, rounder head with a 
more-prominent bill and an overall appearance that can only rarely be termed 
'svelte.' 


7) Finally, though non-definitive, the barring on the bird's tail is suggestive 
of Swainson's in that the individual bars do not reach the inner edge of the 
feathers AND that the shape is somewhat suggestive of that silly 'M' pattern 
that untalented or impatient artists draw when putting flying gulls into a 
scene.  The barring on Red-taileds tends to be straight across the feather and 
reaching both edges of the feather.  There are certainly contrary examples in 
both species, however. 


This bird provides yet another example of why I think that 'morph' is not a 
useful or accurate term to be used in Swainson's Hawk.  Though the light (and 
most-numerous) end of the color spectrum exhibited by the species' plumage 
might be at least somewhat distinct and diagnosable, I've never been able to 
find a line between 'intermediate' and 'dark' in the species, and any line 
between 'intermediate' and 'light' is also fairly arbitrary.  Less so, 
perhaps, than the other line, but still arbitrary, in my opinion. 


Respectfully,

Tony
 
Tony LeukeringLargo, FL
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
http://aba.org/photoquiz/ 
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Leith McKenzie 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Tue, Dec 2, 2014 12:43 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo

Here is some thoughts/discussion about the bird with colleague Barry McKenzie.

From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  
 Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 3:14 PM
 Subject: Re: Hawk Pics
Well! This is a interesting bird.There are so many sub-types of RTHA that it 
takes a dissertation to sort them out. BWHA is simpler.Too bad you don’t have 
a 

good size reference in the photos. Remember how big that snag is? Go back and 
measure it? Ha!
I’ve been pouring over the descriptions and images in Wheeler (Raptors of 
Western North America). Haven’t entered the black hole of online research.
Overall, my impression is that this bird is most likely a juv Western, 
Intermediate form of RTHA (B. j. calurus). The bird is so dark overall, that 
subtle features are just not available. Can’t see color differences/spots on 
the 

secondaries. The narrow barring on the undertail is consistent with RTHA as 
well. The only thing against that is the apparent bright yellowish cere 
(typically “greenish” on juv B. j. calurus).
Juv BWHA should have a heavier terminal band on the tail.  The yellowish cere 
is 

not described on BWHA that I can find…but a photo shows what appears as a 
yellowish cere — described as “pale lores”. Hmm. That’s on a juv BWHA 
of the 

“dark morph, streaked type” subspecies.
I approach the question of a rarity with caution: you gotta have unequivocal 
evidence to truely separate it from a common local species. So, this 
individual 

is ambiguous, but I think the bulk of evidence says RTHA.  On Nov 29, 2014, 
at 

3:35 PM, Leith McKenzie  wrote:
Hi Barry
I think Red-tailed is ruled out by the lack of scalloping on the upperparts (no 

v pattern) and the short primaries. Also, juvenile Red-tails are depicted with 
yellow eyes (is that the case in Wheeler) In the field, my first view of the 
bird was from the side/back with mostly the uniform dark brown upperparts 
showing, and my immediate reaction was Swainson's Hawk.  But I think that 
Swainson's is ruled out by the short primaries alone; also the white feathers 
mottling the underparts is not typical for Swainson's.  I am not confident the 

bird can be identified from the pics, and I had no other views as the bird did 
not fly.
Some of the key points are: primaries well short (~1inch) of tail tip, dark 
eyes, white feathers mixed in brown underparts, uniform dark brown upperparts.

As far as Broad-winged Hawk in Oregon goes, I think that it is recorded 
annually 

(or almost) in Oregon by the Hawk Watch folks, and I have 4 previous records.  

So it is not that Broad-winged Hawk would be that newsworthy, but a Juvenile 
Broad-winged on July 16 would pose the question of breeding for the species in 
Oregon, which is why I think the bird may be of scientific interest.
From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  

 Swainson’s, huh?A first impression can be valuable. A juv SWHA (dark morph) 
does indeed fit many of the features in your photos: - yellow cere - narrow 
banding on tail and undertail coverts
I see what you mean about the short primaries…does it make a difference that 
your photo bird was in July? Are the primaries still growing? Wheeler has 
photos 

of juv birds in Sept that show longer primaries (as you’d expect). Also: 
could 

the apparent yellow cere be a trick of the light? If it’s a true yellow 
color, 

that narrows things down to Swainson’s or Ferruginous…and the undertail 
isn’t 

right for FEHA (should be pale/plain with a weak sub-terminal band and weak 
gray 

banding). Wheeler has some photos of juv dark morph FEHA that shows a very dark 

chest/belly with just a bit of white — not as much as in your photos.
So…gee…I dunno. It sure could be SWHA, especially if the yellow cere is 
real and 

the primary length is variable in a July juv bird. I don’t think we should 
discount your real-time first impression.Although I said my vote went to 
Red-tailed earlier, now I’m not so sure. I think the photos just don’t have 

enough detail or angles.
Cool.
Barry
If it is a hatch year bird, the primaries should be fully grown.  For those of 

us in the "morphology trumps plumage camp" the fact that the primaries are well 

short of the tail tip is key.  Yep, I agree that the photos do not provide for 

me enough information, which I was hoping someone my have firsthand experience 
with birds showing similar coloration to the underparts.
Leithhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/30397515 AT N07/sets/72157649106012508/

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
|  |
|  |
| View on www.flickr.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |

 


“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull  



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 

  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Buteo
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 13:31:21 -0500
All:

I believe that this is a dark Swainson's Hawk.  My rationale follows.

 
1) We cannot accurately assess wing length, because the tips are hidden by the 
tail, though there is some suggestion that, perhaps, one wingtip barely extends 
beyond the tail tip. 


2) If a Swainson's, this bird is probably a year old or so, as fresh juveniles 
(of whatever color) have obvious pale fringing to back feathers, scapulars, and 
wing coverts that this bird lacks. Also, the appearance of the bird's plumage 
is just too messy for the bird to be older. That is, it lacks the smooth, 
concolorousness, particularly on the underparts, of an adult. 


3) A Red-tailed Hawk of this general coloration might be a rufous 'morph' (I'm 
not sure that this term is entirely appropriate for either Red-taileds or, 
particularly, Swainson's hawks). If so, a juvenile of such would show obvious 
streaking below and, again, extensive pale fringing of upperparts feathers. If 
an adult, it would show a wide black belly contrasting with a dark rufous 
chest. This bird shows neither underparts coloration/pattern, nor is the its 
coloration at all intermediate between the two, so we can rule out an immature 
rufous Red-tailed in transition to adult plumage. If it were a dark 'morph' 
Red-tailed, it would have darker body plumage, regardless of the age. Finally, 
as noted by Leith, the bird does not sport any obvious pale coloration on the 
scapulars, which should rule out just about any form of Red-tailed Hawk. 


4) Broad-winged Hawk is a large-headed, chunky raptor that does not at all fit 
this bird's shape. Additionally, in the 100s of 1000s of Broad-wingeds that 
I've seen, I've never seen one with anything like this coloration, and I've 
seen >130 dark Broad-wingeds. 


5) Ferruginous and Rough-legged hawks are right out, as are all of the 
southern, range-restricted buteos. 


6) There really is not a northern ABA-area buteo other than Swainson's that 
sports the somewhat-small-headed, attenuated rear-end look of the bird in 
question. The attenuated look in Swainson's is created by the combination of 
both length (long) AND width (narrow) of the tail, as well as the shape of the 
lower end of the body. Red-tailed Hawk has a larger, rounder head with a 
more-prominent bill and an overall appearance that can only rarely be termed 
'svelte.' 


7) Finally, though non-definitive, the barring on the bird's tail is suggestive 
of Swainson's in that the individual bars do not reach the inner edge of the 
feathers AND that the shape is somewhat suggestive of that silly 'M' pattern 
that untalented or impatient artists draw when putting flying gulls into a 
scene. The barring on Red-taileds tends to be straight across the feather and 
reaching both edges of the feather. There are certainly contrary examples in 
both species, however. 


This bird provides yet another example of why I think that 'morph' is not a 
useful or accurate term to be used in Swainson's Hawk. Though the light (and 
most-numerous) end of the color spectrum exhibited by the species' plumage 
might be at least somewhat distinct and diagnosable, I've never been able to 
find a line between 'intermediate' and 'dark' in the species, and any line 
between 'intermediate' and 'light' is also fairly arbitrary. Less so, perhaps, 
than the other line, but still arbitrary, in my opinion. 


Respectfully,

Tony

 


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Leith McKenzie 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Tue, Dec 2, 2014 12:43 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo


Here is some thoughts/discussion about the bird with colleague Barry McKenzie.

From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  
 Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 3:14 PM
 Subject: Re: Hawk Pics
Well! This is a interesting bird.There are so many sub-types of RTHA that it 
takes a dissertation to sort them out. BWHA is simpler.Too bad you don’t have 
a 

good size reference in the photos. Remember how big that snag is? Go back and 
measure it? Ha!
I’ve been pouring over the descriptions and images in Wheeler (Raptors of 
Western North America). Haven’t entered the black hole of online research.
Overall, my impression is that this bird is most likely a juv Western, 
Intermediate form of RTHA (B. j. calurus). The bird is so dark overall, that 
subtle features are just not available. Can’t see color differences/spots on 
the 

secondaries. The narrow barring on the undertail is consistent with RTHA as 
well. The only thing against that is the apparent bright yellowish cere 
(typically “greenish” on juv B. j. calurus).
Juv BWHA should have a heavier terminal band on the tail. The yellowish cere is 

not described on BWHA that I can find…but a photo shows what appears as a 
yellowish cere — described as “pale lores”. Hmm. That’s on a juv BWHA 
of the 

“dark morph, streaked type” subspecies.
I approach the question of a rarity with caution: you gotta have unequivocal 
evidence to truely separate it from a common local species. So, this individual 

is ambiguous, but I think the bulk of evidence says RTHA.  On Nov 29, 2014, at 
3:35 PM, Leith McKenzie  wrote:
Hi Barry
I think Red-tailed is ruled out by the lack of scalloping on the upperparts (no 

v pattern) and the short primaries. Also, juvenile Red-tails are depicted with 
yellow eyes (is that the case in Wheeler) In the field, my first view of the 
bird was from the side/back with mostly the uniform dark brown upperparts 
showing, and my immediate reaction was Swainson's Hawk.  But I think that 
Swainson's is ruled out by the short primaries alone; also the white feathers 
mottling the underparts is not typical for Swainson's.  I am not confident the 
bird can be identified from the pics, and I had no other views as the bird did 
not fly.
Some of the key points are: primaries well short (~1inch) of tail tip, dark 
eyes, white feathers mixed in brown underparts, uniform dark brown upperparts.

As far as Broad-winged Hawk in Oregon goes, I think that it is recorded 
annually 

(or almost) in Oregon by the Hawk Watch folks, and I have 4 previous records.  
So it is not that Broad-winged Hawk would be that newsworthy, but a Juvenile 
Broad-winged on July 16 would pose the question of breeding for the species in 
Oregon, which is why I think the bird may be of scientific interest.
From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  

 Swainson’s, huh?A first impression can be valuable. A juv SWHA (dark morph) 
does indeed fit many of the features in your photos: - yellow cere - narrow 
banding on tail and undertail coverts
I see what you mean about the short primaries…does it make a difference that 
your photo bird was in July? Are the primaries still growing? Wheeler has 
photos 

of juv birds in Sept that show longer primaries (as you’d expect). Also: 
could 

the apparent yellow cere be a trick of the light? If it’s a true yellow 
color, 

that narrows things down to Swainson’s or Ferruginous…and the undertail 
isn’t 

right for FEHA (should be pale/plain with a weak sub-terminal band and weak 
gray 

banding). Wheeler has some photos of juv dark morph FEHA that shows a very dark 

chest/belly with just a bit of white — not as much as in your photos.
So…gee…I dunno. It sure could be SWHA, especially if the yellow cere is 
real and 

the primary length is variable in a July juv bird. I don’t think we should 
discount your real-time first impression.Although I said my vote went to 
Red-tailed earlier, now I’m not so sure. I think the photos just don’t have 

enough detail or angles.
Cool.
Barry
If it is a hatch year bird, the primaries should be fully grown.  For those of 
us in the "morphology trumps plumage camp" the fact that the primaries are well 

short of the tail tip is key.  Yep, I agree that the photos do not provide for 
me enough information, which I was hoping someone my have firsthand experience 
with birds showing similar coloration to the underparts.
Leithhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/30397515 AT N07/sets/72157649106012508/

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
|  |
|  |
| View on www.flickr.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |

 


“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull  



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Buteo
From: Leith McKenzie <loinneilceol AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 17:31:57 +0000
Here is some thoughts/discussion about the bird with colleague Barry McKenzie.

From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  
 Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 3:14 PM
 Subject: Re: Hawk Pics
Well! This is a interesting bird.There are so many sub-types of RTHA that it 
takes a dissertation to sort them out. BWHA is simpler.Too bad you don’t have 
a good size reference in the photos. Remember how big that snag is? Go back and 
measure it? Ha! 

I’ve been pouring over the descriptions and images in Wheeler (Raptors of 
Western North America). Haven’t entered the black hole of online research. 

Overall, my impression is that this bird is most likely a juv Western, 
Intermediate form of RTHA (B. j. calurus). The bird is so dark overall, that 
subtle features are just not available. Can’t see color differences/spots on 
the secondaries. The narrow barring on the undertail is consistent with RTHA as 
well. The only thing against that is the apparent bright yellowish cere 
(typically “greenish” on juv B. j. calurus). 

Juv BWHA should have a heavier terminal band on the tail.  The yellowish cere 
is not described on BWHA that I can find…but a photo shows what appears as a 
yellowish cere — described as “pale lores”. Hmm. That’s on a juv BWHA 
of the “dark morph, streaked type” subspecies. 

I approach the question of a rarity with caution: you gotta have unequivocal 
evidence to truely separate it from a common local species. So, this 
individual is ambiguous, but I think the bulk of evidence says RTHA.  On Nov 
29, 2014, at 3:35 PM, Leith McKenzie  wrote: 

Hi Barry
I think Red-tailed is ruled out by the lack of scalloping on the upperparts (no 
v pattern) and the short primaries. Also, juvenile Red-tails are depicted with 
yellow eyes (is that the case in Wheeler) In the field, my first view of the 
bird was from the side/back with mostly the uniform dark brown upperparts 
showing, and my immediate reaction was Swainson's Hawk.  But I think that 
Swainson's is ruled out by the short primaries alone; also the white feathers 
mottling the underparts is not typical for Swainson's.  I am not confident the 
bird can be identified from the pics, and I had no other views as the bird did 
not fly. 

Some of the key points are: primaries well short (~1inch) of tail tip, dark 
eyes, white feathers mixed in brown underparts, uniform dark brown upperparts. 


As far as Broad-winged Hawk in Oregon goes, I think that it is recorded 
annually (or almost) in Oregon by the Hawk Watch folks, and I have 4 previous 
records.  So it is not that Broad-winged Hawk would be that newsworthy, but a 
Juvenile Broad-winged on July 16 would pose the question of breeding for the 
species in Oregon, which is why I think the bird may be of scientific interest. 

From: Barry McKenzie 
 To: Leith McKenzie  

 Swainson’s, huh?A first impression can be valuable. A juv SWHA (dark morph) 
does indeed fit many of the features in your photos: - yellow cere - narrow 
banding on tail and undertail coverts 

I see what you mean about the short primaries…does it make a difference that 
your photo bird was in July? Are the primaries still growing? Wheeler has 
photos of juv birds in Sept that show longer primaries (as you’d 
expect). Also: could the apparent yellow cere be a trick of the light? If 
it’s a true yellow color, that narrows things down to Swainson’s or 
Ferruginous…and the undertail isn’t right for FEHA (should be pale/plain 
with a weak sub-terminal band and weak gray banding). Wheeler has some photos 
of juv dark morph FEHA that shows a very dark chest/belly with just a bit of 
white — not as much as in your photos. 

So…gee…I dunno. It sure could be SWHA, especially if the yellow cere is 
real and the primary length is variable in a July juv bird. I don’t think we 
should discount your real-time first impression.Although I said my vote went to 
Red-tailed earlier, now I’m not so sure. I think the photos just don’t have 
enough detail or angles. 

Cool.
Barry
If it is a hatch year bird, the primaries should be fully grown.  For those of 
us in the "morphology trumps plumage camp" the fact that the primaries are well 
short of the tail tip is key.  Yep, I agree that the photos do not provide for 
me enough information, which I was hoping someone my have firsthand experience 
with birds showing similar coloration to the underparts. 

Leithhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/30397515 AT N07/sets/72157649106012508/

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
|  |
|  |
| View on www.flickr.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |

 


“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.” 


Jonathan Livingston Seagull  



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.” 


Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Haemorhous finch ID
From: Derek Hill <kinglet32 AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 04:48:05 +0000
ID Frontiers,

Just the day before Kurt's post on finch ID, I sent out emails to some folks 
regarding exactly the same "potential" field mark I had noticed.  In fact I 
posted to COBirds (Colorado) that day titled "Haemorhous finch ID" - so I was 
definitely piqued to see Kurt's identically titled post, with the same field 
mark, on ID Frontiers whilst browsing the listservs tonight! 


12 Nov. - Colorado - Bryan Guarente posted to COBirds about a possible Purple 
Finch (PUFI) in Boulder, Colorado, where Cassin's Finch (CAFI) would be 
"expected" and PUFI would be rare. 


16 Nov. - Texas - Mary Beth Stowe, Sherry & Dick Wilson, Dan Jones, et. al. 
report a possible Cassin's Finch from the Rio Grande Valley of south Texas, 
where both CAFI and PUFI would be odd, but I'd think PUFI would be "more 
likely." 


Interesting to see CAFI and PUFI being reported in their atypical ranges within 
a small time frame. What are the odds I'd share a field mark that I have not 
read about a day before another fellow shares the same idea? Maybe we will both 
be proven wrong, but I do feel it's got potential. I do feel the TX bird is 
CAFI and the CO bird is PUFI. 


Colorado "PUFI"
Bryan Guarente:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dafekt1ve/15588523669/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dafekt1ve/15772478681/in/photostream/

Texas "CAFI"
Mary Beth Stowe:

http://miriameaglemon.com/photo_gallery/2014%20Field%20Trips/November/Resaca%20de%20la%20Palma%20SP.html 

Robert Becker:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13451078 AT N03/15629789078/in/set-72157649012672712

---------------------------------
An email I sent out 23 nov. to some folks pertaining to the Texas bird:

"Hey guys,
I've been following the finch excitement on Texbirds while also looking for 
these finches in Colorado. Now I certainly ain't an expert on Haemorhous 
finches but I've seen eastern PUFI and have had a few encounters with CAFI in 
Colorado with some good up close study and photo ops last winter. I think the 
TX bird is a Cassin's for a few reasons. 


Also a few days before the Texas bird was reported, in the midst of the snowy 
cold snap we all experienced and with Cassin's Finches, Pine Grosbeaks, etc 
being reported at lower elevations than normal even in winter here in Colorado, 
a fellow in the foothills of northern Colorado reported a Purple Finch at his 
feeder hanging out with House Finches. Cassin's is the expected bird and Purple 
is a rarity.  I looked at the two photos and thought it looked "ok" for 
CAFI.  Now it seems most people agree it's a PUFI and I think the PUFI  ID is 
probably correct!  The CO bird made me think a little more of this ID issue, 
hence excitement about this TX bird. 


Also Barrett Pierce reported 3 Cassin's Finches 25 Oct. at Palo Duro Canyon 
SP.   Chris Runk reported 5+ Cassin's in the Guads 28-29 Oct. so they look 
like they're on the move. Probably a lot of finches of various species were on 
the move with the continent wide cold snap we had. Look out for Bramblings 


pro Cassin's for Texas bird,

- facial pattern intensity.  IMHO female/imm Cassin's and Purple plumage are 
equally 'striking' in the facial striping. 

- crisp narrow streaks above and below good for CAFI
- warm highlights of rusty auriculars and buffy malar were one of the main 
things I noticed studying CAFI at close range, and appear to match TX bird.  
This gold vs gray contrast seemed subtle but consistent in Colorado Cassin's 
throughout the upperparts. Rust in the lower cheek and gold in the anterior 2/3 
of the malar and sometimes supercilium, gold/rusty wash to some of the wing 
coverts contrasting with gray in the collar and upper mantle.  CAFI's warmer 
face and rusty cheeks even reminded me of a very subtle Little Bunting giss.  
Basically the center of warm tones on CAFI was on the face, and some in the 
wing, while on PUFI it may be on the mantle or generally lacking 'gold/rust' 
highlights in general. PUFI being more evenly colored throughout and with 
thicker duller dark streaking above and below. 

- bill looks good for CAFI
- pale eye crescents


Colorado "PUFI"
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dafekt1ve/15772478681/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dafekt1ve/15588523669/in/photostream/

Texas "CAFI"

http://miriameaglemon.com/photo_gallery/2014%20Field%20Trips/November/Resaca%20de%20la%20Palma%20SP.html 

 
I have a series of Cassin's Finch photos I can post on flickr when I get a 
chance.   I think they're a good match with the TX bird. 


Good birding,
Derek Hill
Fort Collins, CO"
------------------------------


 An email I sent out to a fellow Colorado birder pertaining to the same 
situation: 


"Thanks for the only reply I've received so far. Your photos are an excellent 
resource, and support what I thought about darker, blurrier streak-wise in PUFI 
vs narrower, crisper streaks in CAFI and hence more room for paleness, if that 
makes any sense. Plus bill shape etc etc. 


Last February Josh Bruening and I headed uphill to check Scott Rashid's feeders 
in Estes Park for rosy-finches. We dipped on rosies (found them later in the 
day at Fawn Brook Inn) but had excellent up close study of dozens of CAFI, 
alongside PISI, HOFI, EVGR.  Took a decent series of photos of these finches 
as well, and one thing that really seemed to stand out was the coloration of 
the fem/imm CAFIs.  A majority of them showed subtle but consistent rufous 
tones to their auriculars.  And some gold wash to the anterior 1/3 or 2/3 of 
the pale malar.  And lack of buff on the sides/flanks.  Seems to me that PUFI 
lacks the rufous cheeks and shows the same shade of brown as the rest of the 
upperparts. Also some PUFIs seem to have a buff wash to malar, but these buffy 
birds also might tend to show the buff on sides/flanks as well.   Now this is 
based on a pretty small sample and limited experience but an outstanding 
feature of these CAFIs I've studied and photographed tend towards a 'colorful 
face' that PUFI lacks. 


Good birding,
Derek"
----------------






Also I have posted a series of finch photos that I took 8 February 2014, 
Larimer County, Colorado, the day I enjoyed dozens of CAFI and noticed the 
'gold/rust' wash to their faces! 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/26102738 AT N07/

Curious to hear others' input on a potential field mark,

Derek Hill
Fort Collins, CO


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Buteo
From: Leith McKenzie <loinneilceol AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 00:47:28 +0000
This Hawk was observed on Horsefly Mountain, Oregon on July 16, 2014. Key ID 
points are: the extension of the wing tips is well short of the extension of 
the tail and the eyes are dark, the colors in the photo are accurate. Can this 
be identified to species with certainty? What about age, I think the tail 
suggests that it is an immature. Thanks. Leith 

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/30397515 AT N07/sets/72157649106012508/
|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
|  |
|  |
| View on www.flickr.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |

    



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of 
freedom.” 


Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: DNA Analysis -- contamination?
From: Chris Corben <cjcorben AT HOARYBAT.COM>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 14:01:01 -0600
Any sample of human DNA will be contaminated by all sorts of other 
things. Most of the cells in our bodies are actually bacteria! It is not 
a problem, as the genetics people have ways of dealing with such things. 
Otherwise a cheek swab would be completely useless.

Cheers, Chris.

On 11/26/2014 1:03 PM, Noah Arthur wrote:
> Hi. So I'm probably going to try to get that gull poop sample DNA'ed. But
> I've found out that I probably "contaminated" it with tiny insect parts by
> touching it with a paper towel that had crumbled insect parts in it. Will
> this ruin the sample?
>
> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>


-- 

Chris Corben.

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: DNA Analysis -- contamination?
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:03:37 -0600
Hi. So I'm probably going to try to get that gull poop sample DNA'ed. But
I've found out that I probably "contaminated" it with tiny insect parts by
touching it with a paper towel that had crumbled insect parts in it. Will
this ruin the sample?

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Gull for DNA Sequencing
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 11:47:13 -0600
I'm looking for second opinions on this gull:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157647133362094/

I initially thought this bird was an unusual West Coast Herring (hybrid?)
type with sharp, spotty head streaking (which I see in small numbers each
winter), and collected poop for DNA sequencing. But now I'm wondering if
this is just a fairly typical Herring, in which case DNA sequencing would
be quite the waste of money...

What do you all think? Is there anything about this bird that looks wrong
for Herring, or am I freaking out over nothing again?

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Haemorhous finch ID
From: Kurt Radamaker <kurtrad AT MEXICOBIRDING.COM>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:26:19 -0600
Dear Frontiers, 

I have noticed a potential field mark to help separate female and juvenal 
Cassin's Finch from Purple Finch. 

Purple Finch is a review species in Arizona, so I have spent some time 
reviewing photos of potential Cassin's and Purple. 

After looking at hundreds of photos on the internet (although photo labels 
on the internet are often wrong) and other sources, I have found that many 
of the Cassin's show a yellow golden color in the check malar area that 
contrasts with the white underparts, this yellow golden cheek is not 
typically present on Purple. On Purple that area is normally white and does 
not contrast with the face and underparts. 

This yellow golden area is also present on the Texas bird: 
http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz

I don't know if this mark will hold up over all ages and plumages of Purple 
and Cassin's, but it seems to at least favor Cassin's in the many photos I 
have reviewed. 

I'd be curious to know if others have seen this and if it holds up. 

Kurt Radamaker
Cave Creek, AZ

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: Laurent Raty <l.raty AT SKYNET.BE>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:51:49 +0100
"Sky Lark" was one of a set of suggestions made in 1988 
(http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1474-919X.1988.tb07362.x ) by a 
BOURC-appointed subcommittee in a first attempt to "internationalize" 
the English names of WP birds.
BOU (1992) followed, and listed the species as "Sky Lark" (international 
English name) / "Skylark" ("older" English name); BOU (2006: 
http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1474-919X.2006.00603.x ) still repeated this.
BOU (2013: http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/ibi.12069 ), however, switched to 
IOC for international names, halting the use of the 1988 "British 
international English names", and listed Alauda arvensis as "Skylark" 
(BOU English name) / "Eurasian Skylark" (IOU international English name).

Thus the international name used by the BOU is now the name that was 
used by the AOU, before the AOU followed a change that had been 
triggered by the BOU...


On 11/21/2014 09:56 PM, Peter Pyle wrote:
 > Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and
 > identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
 > http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html

If you found it interesting, you may want to check this, too:
http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=3010828&postcount=19
(Albeit there is now some suggestion that things may be still more 
complex than this...)

Cheers,
Laurent -


On 11/24/2014 11:20 AM, Vaughan, Robert wrote:
> I find the use of Sky Lark amusing and the current BOU list does have it as 
Skylark (and Woodlark before we go there). Could the US be lagging behind? 

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle 

> Sent: 21 November 2014 20:57
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
>
> Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.
>
> The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which is much 
darker than European subspecies. 

>
> Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here 
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/hrbp-pages/06-pter-tima/skla-hrbp.htm 

> including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the 
Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of nominate 
arvensis and japonica: 

> http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/pdfs/06-PTER-TIMA/SKLA.pdf
>
> Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and 
identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites: 

> http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html
> 
http://www.birdskorea.org/Birds/Identification/ID_Notes/BK-ID-Lark-Taxonomy.shtml 

> https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wb/v14n03/p0113-p0126.pdf
>
> Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:
>
> "p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN SKYLARK to 
SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)." 

>
> Cheerio,
>
> Peter

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: "Vaughan, Robert" <robert.vaughan AT KCL.AC.UK>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 10:20:14 +0000
I find the use of Sky Lark amusing and the current BOU list does have it as 
Skylark (and Woodlark before we go there). Could the US be lagging behind? 



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle 

Sent: 21 November 2014 20:57
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll

Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.

The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which is much 
darker than European subspecies. 


Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here 
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/hrbp-pages/06-pter-tima/skla-hrbp.htm 

including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the Southeastern 
Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of nominate arvensis and 
japonica: 

http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/pdfs/06-PTER-TIMA/SKLA.pdf

Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and 
identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites: 

http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html

http://www.birdskorea.org/Birds/Identification/ID_Notes/BK-ID-Lark-Taxonomy.shtml 

https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wb/v14n03/p0113-p0126.pdf

Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:

"p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN SKYLARK to 
SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)." 


Cheerio,

Peter

At 02:11 AM 11/21/2014, Lee G R Evans wrote:
>Peter
>
>Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
>
>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374
>
>In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK 
>has a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively 
>long tail and  generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, 
>the most definitive  field characters are in flight, ES having a broad 
>white trailing edge to the  secondaries and inner primaries and 
>Oriental a rather diffuse sandy-buff  trailing edge (although be wary 
>of juvenile ES early in the autumn).
>
>Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill 
>shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed 
>tip), a much  more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores), 
>narrower breast
>  streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring 
>eye-stripe  and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the 
>ground colour rather  than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail 
>coverts of ES). The ear-coverts  have warmer rufous tinges to them and 
>often, a weak rufescent outer web gives a  distinct impression of a 
>rufous wing-panel in flight. The relatively shorter  tail and wings 
>often give an impression of Woodlark in flight.
>
>In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is 
>on call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an 
>equally
>  loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
>
>SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
>
>As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist  of 8 
>clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae from  
>central & southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella 
>across  much of central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran 
>and dulcivox  from the Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian 
>pekinensis, kibarti &  intermedia from further east. A complication 
>comes with the little-studied  JAPANESE SKYLARK (japonica), which forms 
>a bridging gap between the two and does  have some differences in 
>vocalisations but is currently retained in this  grouping.
>
>ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right,  
>breeding across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to 
>Kazakhstan and Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
>
>Best wishes
>
>You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding
>
>Make  your records go much further and contribute towards the 
>protection, knowledge  and further education of our native wildlife - 
>join up to BIRDTRACK today - you  know it makes sense - 
>http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/main/data-home.jsp
>
>
>
>Lee G  R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour  
>Leader General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
>(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/)
>British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information - 
>http://ultimateguidingbirdwise.blogspot.co.uk/
>Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements - 
>_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
>Western  Palearctic Bird News -
>http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
>Items  For Sale or Exchange -
>http://leesmemorabiliaandcollectables.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Local  Websites
>Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Buckinghamshire  Birding - 
>http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Birds  of Tring Reservoirs - 
>http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
>Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 23:10:40 +0000
Hi,

Peter has explained that the single low-quality (heavily compressed) JPEG
was all that the biologists on Kure Atoll could send out given their limited
communication resources.  I think it is sensible to hold judgment on this
bird until more shots become available and I look forward to seeing more
images in due course.  

On a very related point, I have been working on a method of forensic
analysis for images with contrasting light and shade such as this.  The
solution is High Dynamic Range (HDR) Imagery.  If RAW format images become
available for this Skylark it will be possible to create HDR images from
RAW, which will hopefully allow for a clearer analysis of plumage tone.
More here...

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/forensics-hdr-imaging-fro
m-raw.html 

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland



-----Original Message-----
From: Mike O'Keeffe [mailto:okeeffeml AT eircom.net] 
Sent: 22 November 2014 00:07
To: 'Peter Pyle'; 'BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU'
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll

Hi Peter,

Is the consensus you have been receiving based on the single available shot
or on other details provided by the observer(s)?

Could the apparent darkness of the bird in the single available shot be
attributable to lighting?  

The Exif data for the only available image says it was taken at 17:58:43 on
11.11.2014 which seems to be closely approaching sunset on Kure Atoll.  The
lighting in the shot looks about right for that - long shadows cast by the
bird onto itself and long shadows also cast by the plant to the left of it.


I'd be nervous about assigning a bird to race based on one shot, let alone a
shot with this kind of composition and lighting.  That said a long-distance
migrant would seem like the more likely scenario.

It would be great to get hold of the original Canon 7D image.  What we have
available is a poorly compressed JPEG - hardly the original from the camera.
Really great if a RAW file is available for the image but the original JPEG
would be a good start.  

Lastly, surely there must be other shots taken of this bird.  Anyone I know
with a Canon 7D's would normally have it set to shoot at it's maximum 8
frames per second - and find it hard to take just one image at a time.  Then
there is the fact it's a rare bird giving reasonably good close views.
Surely there must be more photos to be had.

Thanks for the challenge!

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland

References

http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374

http://tools.wmflabs.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Kure_Atoll¶ms=28_2
5_N_178_20_W_type:isle
http://www.timegenie.com/city.time/xpmki
http://pveducation.org/pvcdrom/properties-of-sunlight/sun-position-calculato
r 

Exif Data (obtained using Opanda Iexif 2) Image was taken with a Canon EOS
7D Exposure (1/1250") F number (F11) ISO (640) Exposure bias (-0.67EV) Focal
length (105mm) Metering mode (Pattern)


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
Sent: 21 November 2014 20:57
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll

Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.

The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which is much
darker than European subspecies.

Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/hrbp-pages/06-pter-tima/skla
-hrbp.htm
including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the
Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of nominate
arvensis and japonica:
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/pdfs/06-PTER-TIMA/SKLA.pdf

Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and
identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html
http://www.birdskorea.org/Birds/Identification/ID_Notes/BK-ID-Lark-Taxonomy.
shtml
https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wb/v14n03/p0113-p0126.pdf

Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:

"p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN SKYLARK to
SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)."

Cheerio,

Peter

At 02:11 AM 11/21/2014, Lee G R Evans wrote:
>Peter
>
>Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
>
>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374
>
>In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK 
>has a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively 
>long tail and  generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, 
>the most definitive  field characters are in flight, ES having a broad 
>white trailing edge to the  secondaries and inner primaries and 
>Oriental a rather diffuse sandy-buff  trailing edge (although be wary 
>of juvenile ES early in the autumn).
>
>Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill 
>shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed 
>tip), a much  more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores), 
>narrower breast
>  streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring 
>eye-stripe  and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the 
>ground colour rather  than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail 
>coverts of ES). The ear-coverts  have warmer rufous tinges to them and 
>often, a weak rufescent outer web gives a  distinct impression of a 
>rufous wing-panel in flight. The relatively shorter  tail and wings 
>often give an impression of Woodlark in flight.
>
>In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is 
>on call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an 
>equally
>  loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
>
>SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
>
>As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist  of 8 
>clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae from 
>central & southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella 
>across  much of central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran 
>and dulcivox  from the Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian 
>pekinensis, kibarti &  intermedia from further east. A complication 
>comes with the little-studied  JAPANESE SKYLARK (japonica), which forms 
>a bridging gap between the two and does  have some differences in 
>vocalisations but is currently retained in this  grouping.
>
>ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right, 
>breeding across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to 
>Kazakhstan and Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
>
>Best wishes
>
>You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding
>
>Make  your records go much further and contribute towards the 
>protection, knowledge  and further education of our native wildlife - 
>join up to BIRDTRACK today - you  know it makes sense - 
>http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/main/data-home.jsp
>
>
>
>Lee G  R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour 
>Leader General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
>(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/)
>British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information - 
>http://ultimateguidingbirdwise.blogspot.co.uk/
>Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements - 
>_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
>Western  Palearctic Bird News -
>http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
>Items  For Sale or Exchange -
>http://leesmemorabiliaandcollectables.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Local  Websites
>Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Buckinghamshire  Birding -
>http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Birds  of Tring Reservoirs -
>http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
>Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 00:07:03 +0000
Hi Peter,

Is the consensus you have been receiving based on the single available shot
or on other details provided by the observer(s)?

Could the apparent darkness of the bird in the single available shot be
attributable to lighting?  

The Exif data for the only available image says it was taken at 17:58:43 on
11.11.2014 which seems to be closely approaching sunset on Kure Atoll.  The
lighting in the shot looks about right for that - long shadows cast by the
bird onto itself and long shadows also cast by the plant to the left of it.


I'd be nervous about assigning a bird to race based on one shot, let alone a
shot with this kind of composition and lighting.  That said a long-distance
migrant would seem like the more likely scenario.

It would be great to get hold of the original Canon 7D image.  What we have
available is a poorly compressed JPEG - hardly the original from the camera.
Really great if a RAW file is available for the image but the original JPEG
would be a good start.  

Lastly, surely there must be other shots taken of this bird.  Anyone I know
with a Canon 7D's would normally have it set to shoot at it's maximum 8
frames per second - and find it hard to take just one image at a time.  Then
there is the fact it's a rare bird giving reasonably good close views.
Surely there must be more photos to be had.

Thanks for the challenge!

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland

References

http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374

http://tools.wmflabs.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Kure_Atoll¶ms=28_2
5_N_178_20_W_type:isle
http://www.timegenie.com/city.time/xpmki 
http://pveducation.org/pvcdrom/properties-of-sunlight/sun-position-calculato
r 

Exif Data (obtained using Opanda Iexif 2)
Image was taken with a Canon EOS 7D
Exposure (1/1250")
F number (F11)
ISO (640)
Exposure bias (-0.67EV)
Focal length (105mm)
Metering mode (Pattern)


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
Sent: 21 November 2014 20:57
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll

Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.

The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which is much
darker than European subspecies.

Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/hrbp-pages/06-pter-tima/skla
-hrbp.htm
including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the
Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of nominate
arvensis and japonica:
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/pdfs/06-PTER-TIMA/SKLA.pdf

Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and
identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html
http://www.birdskorea.org/Birds/Identification/ID_Notes/BK-ID-Lark-Taxonomy.
shtml
https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wb/v14n03/p0113-p0126.pdf

Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:

"p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN SKYLARK to
SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)."

Cheerio,

Peter

At 02:11 AM 11/21/2014, Lee G R Evans wrote:
>Peter
>
>Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
>
>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374
>
>In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK 
>has a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively 
>long tail and  generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, 
>the most definitive  field characters are in flight, ES having a broad 
>white trailing edge to the  secondaries and inner primaries and 
>Oriental a rather diffuse sandy-buff  trailing edge (although be wary 
>of juvenile ES early in the autumn).
>
>Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill 
>shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed 
>tip), a much  more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores), 
>narrower breast
>  streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring 
>eye-stripe  and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the 
>ground colour rather  than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail 
>coverts of ES). The ear-coverts  have warmer rufous tinges to them and 
>often, a weak rufescent outer web gives a  distinct impression of a 
>rufous wing-panel in flight. The relatively shorter  tail and wings 
>often give an impression of Woodlark in flight.
>
>In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is 
>on call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an 
>equally
>  loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
>
>SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
>
>As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist  of 8 
>clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae from  
>central & southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella 
>across  much of central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran 
>and dulcivox  from the Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian 
>pekinensis, kibarti &  intermedia from further east. A complication 
>comes with the little-studied  JAPANESE SKYLARK (japonica), which forms 
>a bridging gap between the two and does  have some differences in 
>vocalisations but is currently retained in this  grouping.
>
>ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right,  
>breeding across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to 
>Kazakhstan and Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
>
>Best wishes
>
>You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding
>
>Make  your records go much further and contribute towards the 
>protection, knowledge  and further education of our native wildlife - 
>join up to BIRDTRACK today - you  know it makes sense - 
>http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/main/data-home.jsp
>
>
>
>Lee G  R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour  
>Leader General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
>(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/)
>British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information - 
>http://ultimateguidingbirdwise.blogspot.co.uk/
>Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements - 
>_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
>Western  Palearctic Bird News -
>http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
>Items  For Sale or Exchange -
>http://leesmemorabiliaandcollectables.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Local  Websites
>Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Buckinghamshire  Birding - 
>http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Birds  of Tring Reservoirs - 
>http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
>Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

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Subject: Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:56:35 -0800
Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.

The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which 
is much darker than European subspecies.

Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here

http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/hrbp-pages/06-pter-tima/skla-hrbp.htm 

including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the 
Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of 
nominate arvensis and japonica:
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/birds/rlp-monograph/pdfs/06-PTER-TIMA/SKLA.pdf

Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and 
identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html

http://www.birdskorea.org/Birds/Identification/ID_Notes/BK-ID-Lark-Taxonomy.shtml 

https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wb/v14n03/p0113-p0126.pdf

Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:

"p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN 
SKYLARK to SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)."

Cheerio,

Peter

At 02:11 AM 11/21/2014, Lee G R Evans wrote:
>Peter
>
>Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
>
>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374
>
>In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK has
>a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively long tail
>and  generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, the most
>definitive  field characters are in flight, ES having a broad white 
>trailing edge
>to the  secondaries and inner primaries and Oriental a rather diffuse
>sandy-buff  trailing edge (although be wary of juvenile ES early in 
>the autumn).
>
>Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill
>shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed tip), a
>much  more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores), 
>narrower breast
>  streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring
>eye-stripe  and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the ground
>colour rather  than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail 
>coverts of ES). The
>ear-coverts  have warmer rufous tinges to them and often, a weak rufescent
>outer web gives a  distinct impression of a rufous wing-panel in flight. The
>relatively shorter  tail and wings often give an impression of Woodlark in
>flight.
>
>In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is on
>call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an equally
>  loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
>
>SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
>
>As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist  of 8
>clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae 
>from  central
>& southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella across  much of
>central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran and dulcivox  from the
>Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian pekinensis, kibarti &  intermedia from
>further east. A complication comes with the little-studied  JAPANESE
>SKYLARK (japonica), which forms a bridging gap between the two and 
>does  have some
>differences in vocalisations but is currently retained in this  grouping.
>
>ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right,  breeding
>across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to Kazakhstan and
>Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
>
>Best wishes
>
>You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding
>
>Make  your records go much further and contribute towards the protection,
>knowledge  and further education of our native wildlife - join up to
>BIRDTRACK today - you  know it makes sense -
>http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/main/data-home.jsp
>
>
>
>Lee G  R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour  Leader
>General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
>(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/)
>British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk_
>(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information -
>http://ultimateguidingbirdwise.blogspot.co.uk/
>Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements -
>_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_ 
>(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/)
>Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
>Western  Palearctic Bird News -
>http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
>Items  For Sale or Exchange -
>http://leesmemorabiliaandcollectables.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Local  Websites
>Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Buckinghamshire  Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
>Birds  of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
>Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Skylark names
From: "Robert O'Brien" <baro AT PDX.EDU>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 05:57:57 -0800
To the extent that abhorrance is an emotional state, i'll second that
emotion.  May i suggest a more appropriate binomial? Skylark Lark. Bob
OBrien Carver OR.

On Thursday, November 20, 2014, DPratt14  wrote:
> Hi everyone:
>
> I abhor the neologism "Sky Lark", which flies in the face of long
tradition in the English language.  Shelley wrote "To a Skylark" not "To a
Sky Lark".  The ornithological practice of trying to reconfigure the
English language based on newly minted rules is an abomination, especially
when there is no good purpose served.
>
> Doug Pratt
>
>
> "How terribly strange to be seventy."  -Paul Simon, "Old Friends" 1968
>
> H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
> Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
> 1205 Selwyn Lane
> Cary, NC  27511
>
> Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
> North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
> 11 West Jones Street
> Raleigh NC  27601
>
> Phone 919-379-1679
> Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)
>
> Website:  http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/index.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 05:11:24 -0500
Peter
 
Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
 
http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374
 
In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK has  
a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively long tail 
and  generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, the most 
definitive field characters are in flight, ES having a broad white trailing 
edge 

to the  secondaries and inner primaries and Oriental a rather diffuse 
sandy-buff trailing edge (although be wary of juvenile ES early in the autumn). 

 
Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill  
shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed tip), a 
much more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores), narrower breast 

 streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring 
eye-stripe  and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the ground 
colour rather than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail coverts of ES). 
The 

ear-coverts  have warmer rufous tinges to them and often, a weak rufescent 
outer web gives a  distinct impression of a rufous wing-panel in flight. The 
relatively shorter  tail and wings often give an impression of Woodlark in 
flight.
 
In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is on  
call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an equally 
 loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
 
SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
 
As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist  of 8 
clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae from central 

& southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella across  much of 
central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran and dulcivox  from the 
Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian pekinensis, kibarti &  intermedia from 
further east. A complication comes with the little-studied  JAPANESE 
SKYLARK (japonica), which forms a bridging gap between the two and does have 
some 

differences in vocalisations but is currently retained in this  grouping.
 
ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right,  breeding 
across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to Kazakhstan and  
Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
 
Best wishes  

You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding

Make  your records go much further and contribute towards the protection, 
knowledge  and further education of our native wildlife - join up to 
BIRDTRACK today - you  know it makes sense -  
http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/main/data-home.jsp



Lee G  R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour  Leader
General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ 
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) 
British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk_ 
(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co.uk/) 
Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information - 
http://ultimateguidingbirdwise.blogspot.co.uk/
Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements - 
_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk_ 
(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.co.uk/) 

Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blogspot.co.uk/
Western  Palearctic Bird News - 
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.co.uk/
Items  For Sale or Exchange - 
http://leesmemorabiliaandcollectables.blogspot.co.uk/

Local  Websites
Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Buckinghamshire  Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.co.uk/
Birds  of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.co.uk/
Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspot.co.uk/

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Skylark names
From: DPratt14 <DPratt14 AT NC.RR.COM>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 01:51:18 -0500
Hi everyone:

I abhor the neologism "Sky Lark", which flies in the face of long  
tradition in the English language.  Shelley wrote "To a Skylark" not  
"To a Sky Lark".  The ornithological practice of trying to reconfigure  
the English language based on newly minted rules is an abomination,  
especially when there is no good purpose served.

Doug Pratt


"How terribly strange to be seventy."  -Paul Simon, "Old Friends" 1968

H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
1205 Selwyn Lane
Cary, NC  27511

Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
11 West Jones Street
Raleigh NC  27601

Phone 919-379-1679
Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)

Website:  http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/index.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 15:39:52 -0800
Greetings all -

The bird in this image:
http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id=12374

was observed on Kure Atoll, Northwestern Hawaiian Islands, 4-12 
November 2014. This is the only photograph. It was identified as a 
probable Sky Lark by the observers. We are interested in comments on 
the species and subspecies identification.

There is one previous record of Sky Lark for Kure, of the Asian 
subspecies pekinensis of the nominate (arvensis) group, from October 
1963. The nominate European subspecies, or some mixture involving it, 
has been introduced to the Southeastern Hawaiian Islands and has 
occurred as a vagrant (presumably from the southeastern islands) to 
French Frigate Shoals, about a third of the way out from Kauai to Kure.

I am also interested in the current thinking on species status and 
for Oriental Sky Lark (A. gulgula) as well as common names within the 
genus. Most, including the AOU, seem to regard Oriental Sky Lark as a 
separate species but, if so, the AOU name "Sky Lark" for the 
arvensis/japonica groups would seem to need a modifier.

Peter 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: FW:grlazaro@yahoo.es f
From: grlazaro <grlazaro AT YAHOO.ES>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 06:05:12 +0000
http://www.sim-stroy.com/dvza/kfuklyghrduubtjggtedzcckqmzxedse.mrzqcnqufmnugcysgebxbfxgflolqkceh 




 grlazaro AT yahoo.es


 
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Another Goldeneye
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 19:41:52 -0800
I agree that this is an adult and am wondering if 
it might be an older female with some traits 
(bill color, back color, visible white in the 
scapulars, but not white in the face) showing 
male-like characters due to senescence. I'd guess 
that the same mechanisms resulting in male-like 
plumage in these females (reduced levels of 
estrogen that normally mask effects of 
testosterone) could be acting on the bill color as well.

Overall the bill size and head shape strike me 
more like a Barrow's Goldeneye, but I'd hesitate 
to confirm this based on these photos, especially if it is indeed a female.

Peter

At 07:18 PM 11/19/2014, Tony leukering wrote:
>Brad:
>
>The very bright yellow eye indicates an adult, 
>while the very black back indicates a male.  I'm 
>not sure what that all means for the bird's ID, 
>but the intermediate scapular pattern may 
>indicate mixed ancestry.  The most puzzling 
>aspect of the bird to me is the brown head at 
>this season on a bird that ought to be an adult male.
>
>¡Muy interesante!
>
>Tony
>
>Tony Leukering
>Largo, FL
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
> > On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Brad Singer  wrote:
> >
> > Since you are all on the subject of 
> Goldeneyes, I thought I would see if I could
> > get some help on both the age and species of 
> the following bird.  We observed
> > it with a flock of Common's and one adult 
> male Barrow's.  The Barrow's was a first
> > for the area and considered very rare for its 
> location on a Southern California
> > mountain lake.  We observed the bird in 
> question as it was swimming away from us.
> > It caught our eye immediately with its 
> extremely dark uppers. My field notes
> > indicate that it maintained a steep forehead 
> profile at most times while swimming.
> > The bill, in person, appeared somewhat dainty 
> although bill size is very difficult
> > for me to determine in the field. Sorry for the poor photos.
> > Brad Singer
> > Lake Arrowhead, Ca
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcsinger/15612252648/in/photostream/
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcsinger/15799228962/in/photostream/
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Another Goldeneye
From: Tony leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 22:18:53 -0500
Brad:

The very bright yellow eye indicates an adult, while the very black back 
indicates a male. I'm not sure what that all means for the bird's ID, but the 
intermediate scapular pattern may indicate mixed ancestry. The most puzzling 
aspect of the bird to me is the brown head at this season on a bird that ought 
to be an adult male. 


¡Muy interesante!

Tony

Tony Leukering
Largo, FL
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

> On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Brad Singer  wrote:
> 
> Since you are all on the subject of Goldeneyes, I thought I would see if I 
could 

> get some help on both the age and species of the following bird.  We observed
> it with a flock of Common's and one adult male Barrow's. The Barrow's was a 
first 

> for the area and considered very rare for its location on a Southern 
California 

> mountain lake. We observed the bird in question as it was swimming away from 
us. 

> It caught our eye immediately with its extremely dark uppers. My field notes
> indicate that it maintained a steep forehead profile at most times while 
swimming. 

> The bill, in person, appeared somewhat dainty although bill size is very 
difficult 

> for me to determine in the field. Sorry for the poor photos.
> Brad Singer
> Lake Arrowhead, Ca
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcsinger/15612252648/in/photostream/
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcsinger/15799228962/in/photostream/
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Another Goldeneye
From: Brad Singer <bcsinger AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 18:59:15 -0600
Since you are all on the subject of Goldeneyes, I thought I would see if I 
could 

get some help on both the age and species of the following bird.  We observed
it with a flock of Common's and one adult male Barrow's. The Barrow's was a 
first 

for the area and considered very rare for its location on a Southern California
mountain lake. We observed the bird in question as it was swimming away from 
us. 

It caught our eye immediately with its extremely dark uppers. My field notes
indicate that it maintained a steep forehead profile at most times while 
swimming. 

The bill, in person, appeared somewhat dainty although bill size is very 
difficult 

for me to determine in the field. Sorry for the poor photos.
Brad Singer
Lake Arrowhead, Ca
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcsinger/15612252648/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcsinger/15799228962/in/photostream/

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
From: David Sibley <sibleyguides AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 15:26:36 -0500
I agree with Peter that this bird looks more like a male based on shape and 
size (comparing the male and female in the same photo). When I see 
drake-plumaged female waterfowl they always seem to retain typical female 
size and shape, so I would lean strongly to male for this bird. That said, the 
plumage is odd, with paler brown head than normal for a male, and (as Dave 
Irons points out) a disconnect between the white on the face and absence of 
white on scapulars and flanks, which might all go together with the odd bill 
color. 


For what its worth I have seen one Common Goldeneye years ago in Connecticut 
that had a yellow bill but in size and shape was more like an immature male. 


Another thing to keep in mind is that its possible that all goldeneyes have 
yellow pigment in the bill, and what we are seeing is simply an absence of 
black, rather than an addition of yellow. 


Good Birding, 

David Sibley
Concord, MA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 12:01:33 -0800
The suspect bird appears to be a first-fall (HY) individual based on 
the mixed brown (juvenile) and gray (formative) back, breast, and 
flank feathers, in which case I'd rule out the senescent female 
option. Most first-fall males lack black in the bill all together. So 
it's either a first-fall male with an anomalous yellow bill or a 
first-fall female with a white cheek patch. The bill seems large to 
me, more male-like. In any case, it would be interesting to follow 
this bird through the winter, if possible, to see how bill color and 
plumage might change.

Peter

At 10:50 AM 11/19/2014, Tony Leukering wrote:
>Dave et al.:
>
>I have seen a fair few (n~12) brown-headed Common Goldeneyes that 
>sported orange/yellow-orange bills, and published on such.  Though 
>I've assumed all were females, I've never seen one that exhibited 
>any suggestion of male plumage such as this bird.  I think that your 
>hypothesis has merit.
>
>Tony
>
>
>
>
>Tony Leukering
>currently Mayville, MI
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>
>http://aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David Irons 
>To: BIRDWG01 
>Sent: Wed, Nov 19, 2014 1:38 pm
>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
>
>
>Greetings All,
>
>Yesterday, Jen Sanford photographed a rather interesting Common 
>Goldeneye along
>the Columbia River near Portland. It looks mostly like a female and has an
>all-yellow/orange bill and yet it shows an emerging white facial 
>spot below the
>eye, suggesting that it is a young male. The gallery at the link 
>below includes
>two photos of the bird, including one with two other Common 
>Goldeneyes, one of
>which is a more typical young male. In the group photo, the lefthand 
>bird is the
>one in question.
>

>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/920-odd-portland-oregon-common-goldeneye 

>
>I've never seen a male Common Goldeneye with an all-yellow bill and 
>can't find
>any online photos or mention of such. Has anyone in this forum ever 
>seen such a
>bird. Also, I don't normally see or notice the emerging white facial spot in
>young male Commons until they start transitioning and look like the 
>more typical
>young male (front bird) in the photo of three birds. Some of us locally are
>speculating that this might be a female that is hormonally 
>imbalanced in a way
>that is producing some male plumage characteristics. In a blog piece 
>he did back
>in 2010, Sibley 

>(http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/01/distinguishing-female-barrows-and-common-goldeneyes/) 

>
>indicates that all-yellow bills are "rare but regular" in female Common
>Goldeneyes, but makes no mention of this for male Commons of any age.
>
>I will look forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this bird.
>
>Dave Irons
>Portland, OR
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 13:57:37 -0600
I wonder if this bird is an intersex. That would explain the combination of
male and female charateristics...

Noah Arthur, Lincoln, NE

On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 12:36 PM, David Irons  wrote:

> Greetings All,
>
> Yesterday, Jen Sanford photographed a rather interesting Common Goldeneye
> along the Columbia River near Portland. It looks mostly like a female and
> has an all-yellow/orange bill and yet it shows an emerging white facial
> spot below the eye, suggesting that it is a young male. The gallery at the
> link below includes two photos of the bird, including one with two other
> Common Goldeneyes, one of which is a more typical young male. In the group
> photo, the lefthand bird is the one in question.
>
>
> 
http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/920-odd-portland-oregon-common-goldeneye 

>
> I've never seen a male Common Goldeneye with an all-yellow bill and can't
> find any online photos or mention of such. Has anyone in this forum ever
> seen such a bird. Also, I don't normally see or notice the emerging white
> facial spot in young male Commons until they start transitioning and look
> like the more typical young male (front bird) in the photo of three birds.
> Some of us locally are speculating that this might be a female that is
> hormonally imbalanced in a way that is producing some male plumage
> characteristics. In a blog piece he did back in 2010, Sibley (
> 
http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/01/distinguishing-female-barrows-and-common-goldeneyes/) 

> indicates that all-yellow bills are "rare but regular" in female Common
> Goldeneyes, but makes no mention of this for male Commons of any age.
>
> I will look forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this bird.
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 13:50:03 -0500
Dave et al.:

I have seen a fair few (n~12) brown-headed Common Goldeneyes that sported 
orange/yellow-orange bills, and published on such. Though I've assumed all were 
females, I've never seen one that exhibited any suggestion of male plumage such 
as this bird. I think that your hypothesis has merit. 


Tony

 


Tony Leukering
currently Mayville, MI

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Irons 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Wed, Nov 19, 2014 1:38 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR


Greetings All,

Yesterday, Jen Sanford photographed a rather interesting Common Goldeneye along 

the Columbia River near Portland. It looks mostly like a female and has an 
all-yellow/orange bill and yet it shows an emerging white facial spot below the 

eye, suggesting that it is a young male. The gallery at the link below includes 

two photos of the bird, including one with two other Common Goldeneyes, one of 
which is a more typical young male. In the group photo, the lefthand bird is 
the 

one in question.


http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/920-odd-portland-oregon-common-goldeneye 


I've never seen a male Common Goldeneye with an all-yellow bill and can't find 
any online photos or mention of such. Has anyone in this forum ever seen such a 

bird. Also, I don't normally see or notice the emerging white facial spot in 
young male Commons until they start transitioning and look like the more 
typical 

young male (front bird) in the photo of three birds. Some of us locally are 
speculating that this might be a female that is hormonally imbalanced in a way 
that is producing some male plumage characteristics. In a blog piece he did 
back 

in 2010, Sibley 
(http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/01/distinguishing-female-barrows-and-common-goldeneyes/) 

indicates that all-yellow bills are "rare but regular" in female Common 
Goldeneyes, but makes no mention of this for male Commons of any age.

I will look forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this bird.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR 
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 18:36:20 +0000
Greetings All,

Yesterday, Jen Sanford photographed a rather interesting Common Goldeneye along 
the Columbia River near Portland. It looks mostly like a female and has an 
all-yellow/orange bill and yet it shows an emerging white facial spot below the 
eye, suggesting that it is a young male. The gallery at the link below includes 
two photos of the bird, including one with two other Common Goldeneyes, one of 
which is a more typical young male. In the group photo, the lefthand bird is 
the one in question. 



http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/920-odd-portland-oregon-common-goldeneye 


I've never seen a male Common Goldeneye with an all-yellow bill and can't find 
any online photos or mention of such. Has anyone in this forum ever seen such a 
bird. Also, I don't normally see or notice the emerging white facial spot in 
young male Commons until they start transitioning and look like the more 
typical young male (front bird) in the photo of three birds. Some of us locally 
are speculating that this might be a female that is hormonally imbalanced in a 
way that is producing some male plumage characteristics. In a blog piece he did 
back in 2010, Sibley 
(http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/01/distinguishing-female-barrows-and-common-goldeneyes/) 
indicates that all-yellow bills are "rare but regular" in female Common 
Goldeneyes, but makes no mention of this for male Commons of any age. 


I will look forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this bird.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR 
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose
From: Ian McLaren <I.A.McLaren AT DAL.CA>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 15:07:32 +0000
All:

I probably did get the Japanese reference from Joe Morlan's site and forgot 
that I had done so. Apologies. 


It might also be noted that, contrary to the AOU fabilis and serrirostris 
split, Ruokonen and Aarvak (2011. 

Ardea 99: 103111) link both Tundras with fabilis, based partly on mtDNA, but 
find middendorffii distinctive. 


The cautions noted by Joe Morlan need to be heeded.

Ian McLaren
________________________________________
From: Joseph Morlan  on behalf of Joseph Morlan 
 

Sent: November-18-14 7:41 PM
To: Ian McLaren
Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU; David Irons
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose

All,

I did not see a link to the online version of this paper. It can be
downloaded at...

http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmorlan/Middendorffi%20_%20serrirostris.pdf

These biometrics were applied to a controversial Bean Goose at the Salton
Sea...

http://birdingfrontiers.com/2010/11/20/california-bean-goose/

These close-up profile photos of the bill were analyzed by Mariko Parslow
with the following result...

----------------------------------------snip-------------------------------

My principle is that one Anser fabalis which appears outside of its general
distribution range should not carry any subspecies name attached. However,
purely for a morphological argument, I would accept this Salton-Sea Bean
Goose as a small Anser fabalis subsp. middendorffii.

This is only under provision that it is of wild origin, and that the
accompanying Anser albifrons belongs to the subspecies frontalis of wild
origin.

My reasons are as follows;


Facial characters
It is apparent that this bird does not belong to A. f. serrirostris, as, in
its 'field' or 'in-situ' appearance calculated from the photographs (the
range shows variation caused by the angle in various pictures), the
parameters of facial characters tell otherwise.
(1) It lacks the characteristic bulge of lower mandible; at the end of
nostril, the ratio between the thickest part of lower mandible in side view
/ total thickness of both mandible is 0.20 - 0.22. (Just OK for A.f.
serrirostris, but usually 0.22 - over 0.25, cannot recall maximum.)
(2) The ratio between the bill height at the base (both upper + lower) /
the skull height is 0.68 - 0.75. (In A.f. serrirostris the value is 0.65 or
lower.)
(3) The ratio between the upper bill length in side view / the skull length
in side view is some 1.18 - 1.25. (In A.f. serrirostris it is 1.00 or
lower.)
(4) The ratio between upper bill length in side view / the upper bill depth
at base in side view is 2.00 - 2.40. (In A.f. serrirostris it is 1.85 or
lower.)
This combination matches only those of A. f. middendorffii, so far as I
know of from living individuals.

These ratio are calculated from the side view in the field, and not of the
usual biological measurement, e.g. 'bill length', 'skull height', and so
on.

The combination (2)-(4) gives the middendorffii its characteristic
stream-line forehead, not found in A.f. fabalis, its Taiga counterpart in
the western Palaearctic. Some large male A.f. fabalis do resemble A.f.
middendorffii, as in the "Falkirk bird" referred to on the website of CA
bird. However, they never, ever have total combination of these field
characters. Namely, the typical A.f. fabalis has characteristic drop in its
forehead, as their bill is comparatively thinner at base.

It is rather a large A.f. rossicus male which resembles middendorffii in
its shape of a streamlined forehead. I have seen some individuals of A.f.
rossicus in Pannonian population showing similar characters in the field.
Several skins, preserved and marked as both Scandinavian and Eastern
European origins and of unknown subspecies, in the relevant collections in
Europe, also shows similar character combination. One of them was an
authentic material of so called A.f. johansennii, in Budapest, the epithet
which I do not believe exists as a living population. However, judging from
the skins only, in these individuals, the value for (3) tends to be 0.65 -
0.90 rarely 1.00, and that for (4) lower than 1.85.

Size of the bird
Only one concern about this bird being A.f. middendorffii is its small
size. For the subspecies, this bird is undersized, being only slightly
larger than A. albifrons frontalis in the background. But considering that
it is a female whereas the A. albifrons is a male (I regret I have no way
to explain why, but from its posture, comparatively short neck compared to
body length and round lower belly, I am certain, and so am I for the
White-fronted), its size appears just acceptable.

From its behaviour
The fact that it is with A. albifrons subsp. frontalis would mean, provided
that they also are of wild origins. So it is illogical to assume that this
individual originated from Scandinavia, and this excludes the possibility
of it being an A.f. fabalis of unusual facial structure.


Finally, I add a couple of irrelevant notes regarding distinction between
A.f. serrirostris and A.f. middendorffii, which may be of interest for the
contributor(s) of the Salton bird web page. Please convey if you think
appropriate.

Among the facial character (ratio) described as above, the combination of
(1) and (2) would A.f. serrirostris a characteristic drop in its forehead,
and the bill would give an impression that it were curved 'round'
underneath (like an Avocet although less exaggerated).
        Their calls and tone of the voice are completely different; the
voice is much deeper and with shorter syllables in A.f. middendorffii's
than that of A.f. serrirostris, to the extent never heard from any other
subspecies of Bean Geese. The voice of A.f. serrirostris is also deeper
than those of two western subspecies, but the syllables are similar. It
appears as if A.f. serrirostris and A.f. middendorffii speak in different
languages. A short call from one single bird may not be enough for
distinction, but if heard from several individuals, it would be impossible
to make a mistake about their subspecies.

--------------------------------------snip--------------------------------


On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 23:31:31 +0000, Ian McLaren  wrote:

>All:?
>
>
>I found the following (on-line) was useful in assessing the Tundra Bean-Goose 
that turned up last autumn in Nova Scotia. Separating the two species from 
their Asian range should be easy. Use their tabulation of bill measurements of 
the to produce rations +/- 95% limits, or whatever. Might need a statistician 
to help getting legitimate limits with ratios, but can do approximation of 
limits close enough.. Then use these ratios to to see which relative 
measurements of your goose's bill in good profile give a match. As I remember, 
the ratios of some bill measurements differ quite a bit between the two 
species; subspecies of each are trickier. 

>
>
>Cheers, Ian McLaren
>
>
>
>Kurechi, Masayuki, Yoshio Yokota, and Mariko Otsu 1983. Notes on the Field 
Identification of Anser fabalis serrirostris and A. f. middendorfi. Tori 
32:95-106. [In Japanese with English tables and figure captions].? 

>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA
"It turns out we're very good at not seeing things" - Jack Hitt

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan AT CCSF.EDU>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 15:41:19 -0800
All,

I did not see a link to the online version of this paper. It can be
downloaded at...

http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmorlan/Middendorffi%20_%20serrirostris.pdf

These biometrics were applied to a controversial Bean Goose at the Salton
Sea...

http://birdingfrontiers.com/2010/11/20/california-bean-goose/

These close-up profile photos of the bill were analyzed by Mariko Parslow
with the following result...

----------------------------------------snip-------------------------------

My principle is that one Anser fabalis which appears outside of its general
distribution range should not carry any subspecies name attached. However,
purely for a morphological argument, I would accept this Salton-Sea Bean
Goose as a small Anser fabalis subsp. middendorffii.

This is only under provision that it is of wild origin, and that the
accompanying Anser albifrons belongs to the subspecies frontalis of wild
origin.

My reasons are as follows;

   
Facial characters
It is apparent that this bird does not belong to A. f. serrirostris, as, in
its 'field' or 'in-situ' appearance calculated from the photographs (the
range shows variation caused by the angle in various pictures), the
parameters of facial characters tell otherwise. 
(1) It lacks the characteristic bulge of lower mandible; at the end of
nostril, the ratio between the thickest part of lower mandible in side view
/ total thickness of both mandible is 0.20 - 0.22. (Just OK for A.f.
serrirostris, but usually 0.22 - over 0.25, cannot recall maximum.)
(2) The ratio between the bill height at the base (both upper + lower) /
the skull height is 0.68 - 0.75. (In A.f. serrirostris the value is 0.65 or
lower.) 
(3) The ratio between the upper bill length in side view / the skull length
in side view is some 1.18 - 1.25. (In A.f. serrirostris it is 1.00 or
lower.)
(4) The ratio between upper bill length in side view / the upper bill depth
at base in side view is 2.00 - 2.40. (In A.f. serrirostris it is 1.85 or
lower.) 
This combination matches only those of A. f. middendorffii, so far as I
know of from living individuals.

These ratio are calculated from the side view in the field, and not of the
usual biological measurement, e.g. 'bill length', 'skull height', and so
on. 

The combination (2)-(4) gives the middendorffii its characteristic
stream-line forehead, not found in A.f. fabalis, its Taiga counterpart in
the western Palaearctic. Some large male A.f. fabalis do resemble A.f.
middendorffii, as in the "Falkirk bird" referred to on the website of CA
bird. However, they never, ever have total combination of these field
characters. Namely, the typical A.f. fabalis has characteristic drop in its
forehead, as their bill is comparatively thinner at base. 
  
It is rather a large A.f. rossicus male which resembles middendorffii in
its shape of a streamlined forehead. I have seen some individuals of A.f.
rossicus in Pannonian population showing similar characters in the field.
Several skins, preserved and marked as both Scandinavian and Eastern
European origins and of unknown subspecies, in the relevant collections in
Europe, also shows similar character combination. One of them was an
authentic material of so called A.f. johansennii, in Budapest, the epithet
which I do not believe exists as a living population. However, judging from
the skins only, in these individuals, the value for (3) tends to be 0.65 -
0.90 rarely 1.00, and that for (4) lower than 1.85.

Size of the bird
Only one concern about this bird being A.f. middendorffii is its small
size. For the subspecies, this bird is undersized, being only slightly
larger than A. albifrons frontalis in the background. But considering that
it is a female whereas the A. albifrons is a male (I regret I have no way
to explain why, but from its posture, comparatively short neck compared to
body length and round lower belly, I am certain, and so am I for the
White-fronted), its size appears just acceptable.
  
From its behaviour
The fact that it is with A. albifrons subsp. frontalis would mean, provided
that they also are of wild origins. So it is illogical to assume that this
individual originated from Scandinavia, and this excludes the possibility
of it being an A.f. fabalis of unusual facial structure. 


Finally, I add a couple of irrelevant notes regarding distinction between
A.f. serrirostris and A.f. middendorffii, which may be of interest for the
contributor(s) of the Salton bird web page. Please convey if you think
appropriate.

Among the facial character (ratio) described as above, the combination of
(1) and (2) would A.f. serrirostris a characteristic drop in its forehead,
and the bill would give an impression that it were curved 'round'
underneath (like an Avocet although less exaggerated).
	Their calls and tone of the voice are completely different; the
voice is much deeper and with shorter syllables in A.f. middendorffii's
than that of A.f. serrirostris, to the extent never heard from any other
subspecies of Bean Geese. The voice of A.f. serrirostris is also deeper
than those of two western subspecies, but the syllables are similar. It
appears as if A.f. serrirostris and A.f. middendorffii speak in different
languages. A short call from one single bird may not be enough for
distinction, but if heard from several individuals, it would be impossible
to make a mistake about their subspecies.   

--------------------------------------snip--------------------------------


On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 23:31:31 +0000, Ian McLaren  wrote:

>All:?
>
>
>I found the following (on-line) was useful in assessing the Tundra Bean-Goose 
that turned up last autumn in Nova Scotia. Separating the two species from 
their Asian range should be easy. Use their tabulation of bill measurements of 
the to produce rations +/- 95% limits, or whatever. Might need a statistician 
to help getting legitimate limits with ratios, but can do approximation of 
limits close enough.. Then use these ratios to to see which relative 
measurements of your goose's bill in good profile give a match. As I remember, 
the ratios of some bill measurements differ quite a bit between the two 
species; subspecies of each are trickier. 

>
>
>Cheers, Ian McLaren
>
>
>
>Kurechi, Masayuki, Yoshio Yokota, and Mariko Otsu 1983. Notes on the Field 
Identification of Anser fabalis serrirostris and A. f. middendorfi. Tori 
32:95-106. [In Japanese with English tables and figure captions].? 

>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
-- 
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA
"It turns out we're very good at not seeing things" - Jack Hitt

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 04:56:55 +0000
Having seen some additional photos of this bird, there is no doubt that it's a 
Cassin's Finch, for all the reasons suggested by others. 


Dave Irons

> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 20:35:17 -0800
> From: chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> All, 
> 
>    The bill structure (length and depth), as well as those super long
> primaries are all Cassin's to me. Similarly the plumage point that have been
> noted, as well as the good eyering and the narrowly streaked back are
> perfect for Cassin's. But if I had to isolate one feature, the wings. Those
> primaries are too long to be on a Purple Finch in my opinion. 
> 
> Regards, 
> 
> Alvaro 
> 
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 6:58 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> 
> While I generally agree with Bob Yutzy's take on this bird, streaking on the
> undertail coverts doesn't necessarily eliminate Purple Finch. Hatch-year
> Purple Finches, in particular juveniles, often show streaking on the
> undertail coverts. I looked at my own images of HY Purple Finches (western
> form) to double check the streaking on the underparts with this bird. Even
> juvenile Western Purple Finches (ssp. californicus) have broader blurrier
> streaking on the underparts than this bird. I don't have much familiarity
> with the HY birds of the nominate ssp. purpureus, which tends to be less
> olive above and more streaked on the back. I would want to positively
> eliminate the possibility of a young purpureus before going all in on this
> being a Cassin's Finch.
> 
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR 
> 
> > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:03:11 -0800
> > From: boby AT C-ZONE.NET
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > 
> > Hello all,
> > 
> > The eyering, pointy bill, streaked undertail coverts, brighter 
> > somewhat whitish finely streaked breast, the somewhat ill defined 
> > lower section of the malar marks (Purple's are clearly defined on the 
> > lower portion better defining the throat), all point to Cassin's Finch 
> > which we see pretty often in our neck of the woods.
> > 
> > Bob Yutzy
> > Shasta, CA
> > 
> > 
> > On 11/16/2014 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe wrote:
> > > My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's 
> > > a tiny
> > > URL:
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > > Hope it works!
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > > Mary Beth Stowe
> > >
> > > McAllen, TX
> > >
> > > miriameaglemon.com
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > >
> > > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> > >
> > 
> > --
> > Bob & Carol Yutzy
> > Shasta, CA
> > 
> > 
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>  		 	   		  
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8578 - Release Date: 11/15/14
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8578 - Release Date: 11/15/14
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: immature hawk
From: Reid Martin <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 22:46:45 -0600
Dear All,
Further to the points mentioned by Bill and Brian, this bird has only four 
emarginated primaries, limiting the choice in North America to Swainson's, 
Broad-winged, and White-tailed). Other North American buteos have five 
emarginated primaries. 

Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com





On Nov 16, 2014, at Nov 16, 2:38 PM, Hugh McGuinness wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> I came upon this record of an immature Swainson's Hawk on ebird from
> Naples, FL. To me the bird appears to be an imm Short-tailed Hawk, but
> aside from gizz and structure, I realized I am not really sure how to
> separate immatures of the two. So I am wondering if readers here agree it
> is a Short-tailed Hawk, and on what basis can we make the ID. Finally, if I
> am right and since it has been confirmed at e-bird, who should be contacted
> to rectify the record?
> 
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20530051
> 
> -- 
> Hugh McGuinness
> Washington, D.C.
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 20:35:17 -0800
All, 

   The bill structure (length and depth), as well as those super long
primaries are all Cassin's to me. Similarly the plumage point that have been
noted, as well as the good eyering and the narrowly streaked back are
perfect for Cassin's. But if I had to isolate one feature, the wings. Those
primaries are too long to be on a Purple Finch in my opinion. 

Regards, 

Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 6:58 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch

While I generally agree with Bob Yutzy's take on this bird, streaking on the
undertail coverts doesn't necessarily eliminate Purple Finch. Hatch-year
Purple Finches, in particular juveniles, often show streaking on the
undertail coverts. I looked at my own images of HY Purple Finches (western
form) to double check the streaking on the underparts with this bird. Even
juvenile Western Purple Finches (ssp. californicus) have broader blurrier
streaking on the underparts than this bird. I don't have much familiarity
with the HY birds of the nominate ssp. purpureus, which tends to be less
olive above and more streaked on the back. I would want to positively
eliminate the possibility of a young purpureus before going all in on this
being a Cassin's Finch.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR 

> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:03:11 -0800
> From: boby AT C-ZONE.NET
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> The eyering, pointy bill, streaked undertail coverts, brighter 
> somewhat whitish finely streaked breast, the somewhat ill defined 
> lower section of the malar marks (Purple's are clearly defined on the 
> lower portion better defining the throat), all point to Cassin's Finch 
> which we see pretty often in our neck of the woods.
> 
> Bob Yutzy
> Shasta, CA
> 
> 
> On 11/16/2014 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe wrote:
> > My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's 
> > a tiny
> > URL:
> >
> >   
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
> >
> >   
> >
> > Hope it works!
> >
> >   
> >
> > Mary Beth Stowe
> >
> > McAllen, TX
> >
> > miriameaglemon.com
> >
> >   
> >
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> 
> --
> Bob & Carol Yutzy
> Shasta, CA
> 
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


-----
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Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
From: Brian Sullivan <heraldpetrel AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 20:32:33 -0800
Hi Mary Beth et al.

I'm always surprised as how hard some of these out of ranch Purple/Cassin's
Finches can be. This bird seems to fit Cassin's better, with a bold
eyering, fine streaking continuing through the undertail coverts, and
especially the long, rather pointed bill. Cassin's bills vary greatly, from
being relatively shallow-based to deep-based like this bird--but all are
longer and less 'conical' than typical Purple Finches. I think Cassin's
wing projection averages longer, but that might not be a solid character.
Not sure why it would be based on the life history of these two species (or
maybe three species). Eastern Purple Finch is so different in many respects
from Pacific Purple Finch (plumage, voice, and behavior) that I can't
believe we're not looking at species status for those in the coming years.

Thanks

Brian

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe  wrote:

> My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's a tiny
> URL:
>
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
>
>
>
> Hope it works!
>
>
>
> Mary Beth Stowe
>
> McAllen, TX
>
> miriameaglemon.com
>
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
-------------------------------

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: immature hawk
From: Brian Sullivan <heraldpetrel AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 20:19:26 -0800
Hi All

I agree with Bill that this bird is a typical light-morph juvenile
Swainson's. Swainson's have slightly different primary, secondary, and tail
feather patterns that juvenile Short-tailed. The shape differences Bill
points out are fairly obvious, with Swainson's being much longer, and
narrower-winged than juvenile Short-tailed.

Thanks

Brian

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Bill Pranty  wrote:

> Good evening,
>
> This doesn't look like a Short-tailed to me. The wings are too long and
> narrow; Short-taileds have a very Red-tailed profile. Also, I've never seen
> a juvenile Short-tailed with such extensive streaking on the underparts.
> Normally, the underparts, including the underwing coverts, are quite buffy
> with very little streaking on the breast.
>
> Photos of two light-morph juveniles from St. Petersburg, 2 Sep 2011, are
> found here:
>
>
> 
http://listserv.admin.usf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?A2=ind1109&L=BRDBRAIN&T=0&O=A&X=7E1FFD79D96835E3EA&P=27146 

>
> (click on the last two images).
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bill Pranty
> Bayonet Point, Florida
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 15:38:18 -0500
> > From: hdmcguinness AT GMAIL.COM
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] immature hawk
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I came upon this record of an immature Swainson's Hawk on ebird from
> > Naples, FL. To me the bird appears to be an imm Short-tailed Hawk, but
> > aside from gizz and structure, I realized I am not really sure how to
> > separate immatures of the two. So I am wondering if readers here agree it
> > is a Short-tailed Hawk, and on what basis can we make the ID. Finally,
> if I
> > am right and since it has been confirmed at e-bird, who should be
> contacted
> > to rectify the record?
> >
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20530051
> >
> > --
> > Hugh McGuinness
> > Washington, D.C.
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
-------------------------------

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: immature hawk
From: Bill Pranty <billpranty AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 22:21:40 -0500
Good evening,

This doesn't look like a Short-tailed to me. The wings are too long and narrow; 
Short-taileds have a very Red-tailed profile. Also, I've never seen a juvenile 
Short-tailed with such extensive streaking on the underparts. Normally, the 
underparts, including the underwing coverts, are quite buffy with very little 
streaking on the breast. 


Photos of two light-morph juveniles from St. Petersburg, 2 Sep 2011, are found 
here: 



http://listserv.admin.usf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?A2=ind1109&L=BRDBRAIN&T=0&O=A&X=7E1FFD79D96835E3EA&P=27146 


(click on the last two images).


Best regards,

Bill Pranty
Bayonet Point, Florida



> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 15:38:18 -0500
> From: hdmcguinness AT GMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] immature hawk
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I came upon this record of an immature Swainson's Hawk on ebird from
> Naples, FL. To me the bird appears to be an imm Short-tailed Hawk, but
> aside from gizz and structure, I realized I am not really sure how to
> separate immatures of the two. So I am wondering if readers here agree it
> is a Short-tailed Hawk, and on what basis can we make the ID. Finally, if I
> am right and since it has been confirmed at e-bird, who should be contacted
> to rectify the record?
> 
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20530051
> 
> -- 
> Hugh McGuinness
> Washington, D.C.
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 02:57:30 +0000
While I generally agree with Bob Yutzy's take on this bird, streaking on the 
undertail coverts doesn't necessarily eliminate Purple Finch. Hatch-year Purple 
Finches, in particular juveniles, often show streaking on the undertail 
coverts. I looked at my own images of HY Purple Finches (western form) to 
double check the streaking on the underparts with this bird. Even juvenile 
Western Purple Finches (ssp. californicus) have broader blurrier streaking on 
the underparts than this bird. I don't have much familiarity with the HY birds 
of the nominate ssp. purpureus, which tends to be less olive above and more 
streaked on the back. I would want to positively eliminate the possibility of a 
young purpureus before going all in on this being a Cassin's Finch. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR 

> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:03:11 -0800
> From: boby AT C-ZONE.NET
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> The eyering, pointy bill, streaked undertail coverts, brighter somewhat 
> whitish finely streaked breast, the somewhat ill defined lower section 
> of the malar marks (Purple's are clearly defined on the lower portion 
> better defining the throat), all point to Cassin's Finch which we see 
> pretty often in our neck of the woods.
> 
> Bob Yutzy
> Shasta, CA
> 
> 
> On 11/16/2014 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe wrote:
> > My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's a tiny
> > URL:
> >
> >   
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
> >
> >   
> >
> > Hope it works!
> >
> >   
> >
> > Mary Beth Stowe
> >
> > McAllen, TX
> >
> > miriameaglemon.com
> >
> >   
> >
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> 
> -- 
> Bob & Carol Yutzy
> Shasta, CA
> 
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
From: Bob & Carol Yutzy <boby AT C-ZONE.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:03:11 -0800
Hello all,

The eyering, pointy bill, streaked undertail coverts, brighter somewhat 
whitish finely streaked breast, the somewhat ill defined lower section 
of the malar marks (Purple's are clearly defined on the lower portion 
better defining the throat), all point to Cassin's Finch which we see 
pretty often in our neck of the woods.

Bob Yutzy
Shasta, CA


On 11/16/2014 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe wrote:
> My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's a tiny
> URL:
>
>   
>
> http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
>
>   
>
> Hope it works!
>
>   
>
> Mary Beth Stowe
>
> McAllen, TX
>
> miriameaglemon.com
>
>   
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

-- 
Bob & Carol Yutzy
Shasta, CA


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
From: Mary Beth Stowe <mbstowe AT MIRIAMEAGLEMON.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:33:20 -0600
My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's a tiny
URL:

 

http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz

 

Hope it works!

 

Mary Beth Stowe

McAllen, TX

miriameaglemon.com

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Falcated Duck
From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 19:12:01 -0500
 Bruce et al.:

Certainly, the dark collar on a white foreneck seems bang on for FADU and the 
bill shape seems odd for most New World ducks, except Northern Pintail (NOPI). 
Having no experience with Falcated Duck (FADU), I've had to browse online 
photos to get any feel for what a alternate-plumaged male might look like. In 
my admittedly short search, I didn't find many such pictures, but one, I 
thought, was illustrative relative to this case: 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/carron/5211209381

The male in the pic above shares quite a few features with Colusa NWR bird, 
particularly the flanks and the brown scaps with pale markings. 


I found another picture that is relevant to this bird, a molting male Gadwall 
(GADW): 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/rivertay/15045939150

While the Colusa bird might be a hybrid, I don't see the GADW and NOPI combo 
producing a bird with such a white tail. I think that the Colusa bird looks 
enough like a FADU that if it is a hybrid, I would vote for FADU x GADW. 


Regardless, I hope that the bird sticks and folks get more pix of it as it goes 
through its molt, as noted by Bruce. 


Enjoy,

Tony



Tony Leukering
currently Mayville, MI

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: BRUCE DEUEL 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Sun, Nov 16, 2014 2:13 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Falcated Duck


Hybrid with Gadwall seems to make the most sense, because of additional
black at the rear and brownish tones to back and wing coverts.  Pintail
might explain the extra white on the chest, but I don't know what an
eclipse Falcated would show there.  If it stays around and continues its
molt, we may learn more.

Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff, CA

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 9:07 AM, David Irons  wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> Do you have a theory about the parentage of this bird? The lower section
> of white on the breast seems too extensive, but otherwise this bird
> suggests a male Falcated coming out of alternate/eclipse plumage. Many
> Asian dabbling duck species molt later than N.A. counterparts (some of
> which are still going through PA molt), but I wouldn't expect a eclipse
> Falcated to have more white on the breast. I don't have answers, but the
> appearance of this bird certainly raises some questions.
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 08:31:35 -0800
> > From: bdeuel AT WILDBLUE.NET
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Falcated Duck
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> >
> > Hi, all.
> > Here is a link to photos posted in an eBird checklist purporting to be a
> > Falcated Duck. I suspect it is not a pure example of this species.
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20446527
> >
> > Bruce Deuel
> > Red Bluff, CA
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Carpodacus Finch in South Texas
From: Mary Beth Stowe <mbstowe AT MIRIAMEAGLEMON.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:44:45 -0600
Hi, all!

 

A female Carpodacus showed up at Resaca de la Palma State Park this morning
that I just assumed was a Purple (pretty rare for down here), so I started
shooting pictures before the thing bolted into the bushes, but one of my
friends advised me not to rule out Cassin's (which would be even rarer, I
would think, but there IS a past record for the Valley), so after looking at
my pictures, I'm wondering if that might be the case.  At first I thought
the facial pattern was too strong and that the breast streaking was too
heavy, but points for Cassin's include:

 

Long, straight-culmened bill

Appearance of an eye ring

More narrow streaking that appears to extend all the way to the undertail
covers (although this could be an optical illusion based on wet feathers)

Contrasting streaking on the back.

 

Photos are here, and feedback is welcome!

 

http://miriameaglemon.com/photo_gallery/2014%20Field%20Trips/November/Resaca
%20de%20la%20Palma%20SP.html

 

MB

 

Mary Beth Stowe

McAllen, TX

miriameaglemon.com

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose
From: Ian McLaren <I.A.McLaren AT DAL.CA>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 23:31:31 +0000
All:?


I found the following (on-line) was useful in assessing the Tundra Bean-Goose 
that turned up last autumn in Nova Scotia. Separating the two species from 
their Asian range should be easy. Use their tabulation of bill measurements of 
the to produce rations +/- 95% limits, or whatever. Might need a statistician 
to help getting legitimate limits with ratios, but can do approximation of 
limits close enough.. Then use these ratios to to see which relative 
measurements of your goose's bill in good profile give a match. As I remember, 
the ratios of some bill measurements differ quite a bit between the two 
species; subspecies of each are trickier. 



Cheers, Ian McLaren



Kurechi, Masayuki, Yoshio Yokota, and Mariko Otsu 1983. Notes on the Field 
Identification of Anser fabalis serrirostris and A. f. middendorfi. Tori 
32:95-106. [In Japanese with English tables and figure captions].? 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Gallery of photos of the Oregon Tundra Bean-Goose
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 21:00:16 +0000
Greetings all,

While the general consensus has been that the Bean-Goose currently being seen 
at Nestucca Bay NWR, (Oregon) is a Tundra, some of us have privately wondered 
about the apparent bill length of this bird. This past Friday I watched the 
goose for over an hour at various distances and angles and took the photos that 
appear in the gallery at the link below. The bill generally appeared pretty 
deep at the base, but when in perfect or near-perfect profile it seemed a bit 
longer and flatter sloped than what might be typical for Tundra Bean-Goose. It 
does show a conspicuous grin patch, as seen in several of the images and the 
orange-yellow on the bill is restricted to a subterminal band that barely 
reaches the outer edge of the nares (best fits Tundra). The shape of the 
coverts and scapulars on this bird (broad and square-ended) suggest that it is 
an after hatch-year bird. Given that my prior experience with bean-geese is 
zero, I'd like to hear opinions about this bird from folks who have familiarity 
with both Tundra (particularly the more easterly populations) and Taiga 
Bean-Geese and how one goes about separating birds with bill lengths that might 
be described as intermediate. 


http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/918-oregon-tundra-bean-goose-photos

Thanks in advance for thoughts about this bird,

Dave Irons
Portland, OR 


 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: immature hawk
From: Hugh McGuinness <hdmcguinness AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 15:38:18 -0500
Hi All,

I came upon this record of an immature Swainson's Hawk on ebird from
Naples, FL. To me the bird appears to be an imm Short-tailed Hawk, but
aside from gizz and structure, I realized I am not really sure how to
separate immatures of the two. So I am wondering if readers here agree it
is a Short-tailed Hawk, and on what basis can we make the ID. Finally, if I
am right and since it has been confirmed at e-bird, who should be contacted
to rectify the record?

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20530051

-- 
Hugh McGuinness
Washington, D.C.

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Falcated Duck
From: BRUCE DEUEL <bdeuel AT WILDBLUE.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 11:11:03 -0800
Hybrid with Gadwall seems to make the most sense, because of additional
black at the rear and brownish tones to back and wing coverts.  Pintail
might explain the extra white on the chest, but I don't know what an
eclipse Falcated would show there.  If it stays around and continues its
molt, we may learn more.

Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff, CA

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 9:07 AM, David Irons  wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> Do you have a theory about the parentage of this bird? The lower section
> of white on the breast seems too extensive, but otherwise this bird
> suggests a male Falcated coming out of alternate/eclipse plumage. Many
> Asian dabbling duck species molt later than N.A. counterparts (some of
> which are still going through PA molt), but I wouldn't expect a eclipse
> Falcated to have more white on the breast. I don't have answers, but the
> appearance of this bird certainly raises some questions.
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 08:31:35 -0800
> > From: bdeuel AT WILDBLUE.NET
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Falcated Duck
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> >
> > Hi, all.
> > Here is a link to photos posted in an eBird checklist purporting to be a
> > Falcated Duck. I suspect it is not a pure example of this species.
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20446527
> >
> > Bruce Deuel
> > Red Bluff, CA
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Falcated Duck
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:07:32 +0000
Bruce,

Do you have a theory about the parentage of this bird? The lower section of 
white on the breast seems too extensive, but otherwise this bird suggests a 
male Falcated coming out of alternate/eclipse plumage. Many Asian dabbling duck 
species molt later than N.A. counterparts (some of which are still going 
through PA molt), but I wouldn't expect a eclipse Falcated to have more white 
on the breast. I don't have answers, but the appearance of this bird certainly 
raises some questions. 


Dave Irons
Portland, OR 

> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 08:31:35 -0800
> From: bdeuel AT WILDBLUE.NET
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Falcated Duck
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> 
> Hi, all.
> Here is a link to photos posted in an eBird checklist purporting to be a
> Falcated Duck.  I suspect it is not a pure example of this species.
> Thoughts?
> 
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20446527
> 
> Bruce Deuel
> Red Bluff, CA
> 
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 		 	   		  
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Falcated Duck
From: BRUCE DEUEL <bdeuel AT WILDBLUE.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 08:31:35 -0800
Hi, all.
Here is a link to photos posted in an eBird checklist purporting to be a
Falcated Duck.  I suspect it is not a pure example of this species.
Thoughts?

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20446527

Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Subject: Forensic Image Analysis Techniques
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 10:39:29 +0000
 

All,

 

Member of this list may find some recent postings of interest.  

 

Forensic Analysis of Images

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/10/forensics-introduction.html


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/forensics-introduction-to-gaussian.html 



http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/forensics-gaussian-analysis-overexposure.html 



http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/10/forensics-analysis-of-shadows.html 


 

 

Recovering Detail from Images


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/10/forensics-maximizing-image-content.html 



http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/09/image-quality-tool-modified-images.html 


 

 

Birds and Light


http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/birds-and-light-image-lighting-tools.html 



http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/10/birds-and-light-seabirds.html 



http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/2014/11/birds-and-light-translucency.html 


 

Regards

 

Mike O’Keeffe

Ireland

 

http://birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie/ 

 

 

 

 


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html