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Northern Fulmar,©David Sibley

19 Jan Re: male Gadwall plumage [Wayne Hoffman ]
19 Jan Re: male Gadwall plumage [Wayne Hoffman ]
18 Jan male Gadwall plumage [KEVIN karlson ]
17 Jan San Diego County Larus sp. [James Pawlicki ]
10 Jan California x Ring-billed Gull? [Peter Pyle ]
8 Jan Re: strange bird from Nevada reported… [Jeff Gilligan ]
8 Jan Re: strange bird from Nevada reported… [Christopher Hill ]
8 Jan Re: strange bird from Nevada reported… [Jeff Gilligan ]
7 Jan Re: Mystery Duck [KEVIN karlson ]
6 Jan Re: Mystery Duck [David Irons ]
6 Jan Re: Mystery Duck [Cathy Sheeter ]
6 Jan Re: Mystery Duck [Martin Reid ]
6 Jan Re: Mystery Duck [Michael Todd ]
6 Jan Re: Mystery Duck [Cathy Sheeter ]
6 Jan Re: Mystery Duck [Deborah Allen ]
6 Jan Re: Mystery Duck [The HH75 ]
6 Jan Mystery Duck [Bates Estabrooks ]
5 Jan Re: Black-throated Gray Warbler Sex/Age [Peter Pyle ]
2 Jan Re: Black-throated Gray Warbler Sex/Age [Ashli Gorbet ]
2 Jan Re: Black-throated Gray Warbler Sex/Age [Shaibal Mitra ]
2 Jan Black-throated Gray Warbler Sex/Age [Hugh McGuinness ]
2 Jan RFI: Rock Sandpiper Soft Parts Coloration [Jeremy Gatten ]
30 Dec Re: A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow [Peter Pyle ]
30 Dec Re: A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow [Steve Hampton ]
30 Dec Re: A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow [Jason Rogers ]
27 Dec RFI: information on actual flap rate of Chimney vs Vaux's Swifts [Martin Reid ]
26 Dec Meadowlark in Hickson, Oxford County, Ontario 25 December 2016 [Jeff Skevington ]
26 Dec Re: BIRDWG01 Digest - 24 Dec 2016 to 25 Dec 2016 (#2016-70) ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
26 Dec Re: BIRDWG01 Digest - 24 Dec 2016 to 25 Dec 2016 (#2016-70) [Steve Hampton ]
26 Dec Re: BIRDWG01 Digest - 24 Dec 2016 to 25 Dec 2016 (#2016-70) [Alan Contreras ]
26 Dec Re: A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow [Steve Hampton ]
25 Dec A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow [Andrew Spencer ]
24 Dec Re: Mystery Catharus Question [Bates Estabrooks ]
24 Dec Re: Mystery Catharus Question [Bates Estabrooks ]
24 Dec Re: Mystery Catharus Question ["Kevin J. McGowan" ]
24 Dec Mystery Catharus Question [Bates Estabrooks ]
23 Dec Re: western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland [Jason Rogers ]
23 Dec Re: western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland [David Irons ]
23 Dec Re: western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland [Steve Hampton ]
23 Dec Re: western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland [David Irons ]
23 Dec Re: western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
23 Dec western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland [Bruce Mactavish ]
21 Dec Mystery warbler in Ohio, USA [Ted Floyd ]
20 Dec Long-tailed Duck (LTDU) Summary [Matthew G Hunter ]
19 Dec Sexing a Long-tailed Duck [Matthew G Hunter ]
15 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Chuck Otte ]
15 Dec Re: Sapsucker ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
15 Dec Re: Sapsucker ["Kevin J. McGowan" ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Louis Bevier ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Jerry Tangren ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Jocelyn Hudon ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Peter Pyle ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Tim Avery ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker ["Kevin J. McGowan" ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Joseph Morlan ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Wayne Hoffman ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Matt Brady ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Matt Brady ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Chris Corben ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Matt Brady ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [David Irons ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [John Harris ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Jason Rogers ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [Joseph Morlan ]
14 Dec Re: Sapsucker [David Irons ]
13 Dec Sapsucker [Logan Kahle ]
13 Dec Audouin's Gull in Trinidad - corrected link [James P Smith ]
12 Dec Re: Unidentified gull resembling Audouin's in Trinidad - Dec 10th, 2016 [James P Smith ]
12 Dec Re: Unidentified gull resembling Audouin's in Trinidad - Dec 10th, 2016 [Amar Ayyash ]
12 Dec Unidentified gull resembling Audouin's in Trinidad - Dec 10th, 2016 [James P Smith ]
30 Nov Fw: Possible "Kamchatka" Mew Gull - Oregon coast [Russ Namitz ]
29 Nov Basic adult Double-crested Cormorants -- a question [Brian Sullivan ]
29 Nov Re: Basic adult Double-crested Cormorants -- a question ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
1 Nov Re: New dowitcher ID [Ted Floyd ]

Subject: Re: male Gadwall plumage
From: Wayne Hoffman <whoffman AT PEAK.ORG>
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 22:28:47 -0800
Good point!   Just not in definitive plumages.  And Reeber (Plate 39) 
illustrates a hybrid American Wigeon X Northern Shoveler with a distinct 
crescent. 


Wayne
On 1/19/2017 11:44:52 AM, Tony Leukering 
<000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu> wrote: 

Wayne et al.:


I would add Northern Shoveler to the list of duck species expressing a white 
pre-ocular crescent: 



http://cobirds.org/CFO/ColoradoBirds/InTheScope/13.pdf




Tony


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL
http://cowyebird.blogspot.com/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/



-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Hoffman
To: BIRDWG01
Sent: Thu, Jan 19, 2017 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] male Gadwall plumage

Hi -

I can see the reasons you might think this bird has a Pintail in its recent 
ancestry. I would not argue against it. On the other hand, 


I think to understand plumage variation in waterfowl(and other birds), and to 
understand plumages of hybrids, we need to update our understanding of how 
feather colors (and shapes) are coded for and controlled genetically. At this 
point it appears that there are (at least) 2 levels of control. One set of 
genes codes for the production of the protein products that are the building 
blocks of feathers. The second set regulates the transcription of the first 
set. 


Applying an analogy I have used before: consider a 3D Printer. The products it 
can create depend on (1) the precursor materials loaded into it, and (2) the 
software program that tells it when and how much of each of these substances to 
deposit. So think of the first set of genes loading the printer, and the second 
set running it. 


In the case of duck plumages, there has to be a basic set of patterns coded, 
and then the transcription regulators determine which are activated. 


The earlier discussion centered on the green blob/swoosh/rotated teardrop 
extending back from the eye. Evidently this is incorporated in an underlying 
pattern possessed by all(?) dabbling ducks and presumably expressed in their 
common ancestor. It is normally expressed in American Wigeons, Green-winged 
Teal, Common Teal, Falcated Duck (and Crested Shelduck), and masked, 
de-activated, or over-ridden in many species. In hybrids, it appears that the 
masking regulatory programs are disrupted, and this feature often is expressed, 
even if it is not expressed in either parent. 


A second example is the vertical dark bar below the eye separating pale 
fore-cheek from hind-cheek in Baikal Teal. A similar vertical separation shows 
up in quite a few dabbling duck hybrid combinations. 


Third, Baikal Teal expresses a vertical white bar separating breast from flank, 
a feature shared with Green-winged Teal but not Common Teal or most other 
dabbling ducks. 


Fourth, Green-winged and Common Teal have a triangular yellow/tan patch framed 
in blackon the sides of the tail base. This is also present in slightly 
modified form in Falcated Duck. 


Fifth. Blue-winged Teal are marked with a prominent white crescent between the 
bill and eye. This seems likely to be an expression of the same feature as the 
fattened crescent with supercilium on Baikal Teal, and this crescent as a 
retained ancestral pattern seems to be as likely an explanation as coincidental 
convergence for its appearance also in Barrow's Goldeneye. 


I think we can see other ancestral and variably retained/suppressed 
charactersin other bird groups as well. For example, collars and contrasting 
patches on the sides of necks of Columbids. Or, contrasting crown patches in 
Tyrant Flycatchers. I doubt that many would argue that Kingbirds, Elanias, and 
Royal Flycatchers are each others' closest relatives in this large family. 


Wayne


On 1/18/2017 11:15:35 AM, KEVIN karlson wrote:
A few weeks ago, Bates Estabrook posted a photo of a male Gadwall with a dark 
crown, and wondered if it could include hybrid genes from another duck species. 
The discussion basically covered ancestral traits of anas ducks and reflected 
on the ancient traits that exist in the gene pool of certain duck species. I 
just sent a photo of a male Gadwall that I mentioned in my response to Bates 
that I noticed had a darker crown than usual, but just brushed it off as 
variable Gadwall plumage based on these ancestral traits. However, closer views 
of this photo show distinct thin white lines on the tertial feathers and a 
grayish-blue cast to the bill base, which seem to be traits of male Northern 
Pintail. I was curious to see how others view this bird, and their opinion 
about hybrid genes or just ancestral traits. Here is the link to this photo on 
my website. 
http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Waterfowl/Dabbling+Ducks/Gadwall_+ad+male_+Oct_+NJ+small.jpg.html 




Kevin Karlson

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: male Gadwall plumage
From: Wayne Hoffman <whoffman AT PEAK.ORG>
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 10:55:28 -0800
Hi - 

I can see the reasons you might think this bird has a Pintail in its recent 
ancestry.  I would not argue against it.  On the other hand,  


I think to understand plumage variation in waterfowl(and other birds), and to 
understand plumages of hybrids, we need to update our understanding of how 
feather colors (and shapes) are coded for and controlled genetically.  At this 
point it appears that there are (at least) 2 levels of control.  One set of 
genes codes for the production of the protein products that are the building 
blocks of feathers.  The second set regulates the transcription of the first 
set. 


Applying an analogy I have used before:  consider a 3D Printer.  The products 
it can create depend on (1) the precursor materials loaded into it, and (2) the 
software program that tells it when and how much of each of these substances to 
deposit.  So think of the first set of genes loading the printer, and the 
second set running it. 


In the case of duck plumages, there has to be a basic set of patterns coded, 
and then the transcription regulators determine which are activated. 


The earlier discussion centered on the green blob/swoosh/rotated teardrop 
extending back from the eye.  Evidently this is incorporated in an underlying 
pattern possessed by all(?) dabbling ducks and presumably expressed in their 
common ancestor.  It is normally expressed in American Wigeons, Green-winged 
Teal, Common Teal, Falcated Duck (and Crested Shelduck),  and masked, 
de-activated, or over-ridden in many species. In hybrids, it appears that the 
masking regulatory programs are disrupted, and this feature often is expressed, 
even if it is not expressed in either parent.   


A second example is the vertical dark bar below the eye separating pale 
fore-cheek from hind-cheek in Baikal Teal.  A similar vertical separation 
shows up in quite a few dabbling duck hybrid combinations. 


Third, Baikal Teal expresses a vertical white bar separating breast from flank, 
a feature shared with Green-winged Teal but not Common Teal or most other 
dabbling ducks. 


Fourth, Green-winged and Common Teal have a triangular yellow/tan patch framed 
in blackon the sides of the tail base.  This is also present in slightly 
modified form in Falcated Duck. 


Fifth.  Blue-winged Teal are marked with a prominent white crescent between 
the bill and eye.  This seems likely to be an expression of the same feature 
as the fattened crescent with supercilium on Baikal Teal, and this crescent as 
a retained ancestral pattern seems to be as likely an explanation as 
coincidental convergence for its appearance also in Barrow's Goldeneye. 


I think we can see other ancestral and variably retained/suppressed 
charactersin other bird groups as well.  For example, collars and contrasting 
patches on the sides of necks of Columbids.  Or, contrasting crown patches in 
Tyrant Flycatchers.  I doubt that many would argue that Kingbirds, Elanias, 
and Royal Flycatchers are each others' closest relatives in this large family. 


Wayne


On 1/18/2017 11:15:35 AM, KEVIN karlson  wrote:
A few weeks ago, Bates Estabrook posted a photo of a male Gadwall with a dark 
crown, and wondered if it could include hybrid genes from another duck species. 
The discussion basically covered ancestral traits of anas ducks and reflected 
on the ancient traits that exist in the gene pool of certain duck species. I 
just sent a photo of a male Gadwall that I mentioned in my response to Bates 
that I noticed had a darker crown than usual, but just brushed it off as 
variable Gadwall plumage based on these ancestral traits. However, closer views 
of this photo show distinct thin white lines on the tertial feathers and a 
grayish-blue cast to the bill base, which seem to be traits of male Northern 
Pintail. I was curious to see how others view this bird, and their opinion 
about hybrid genes or just ancestral traits. Here is the link to this photo on 
my website. 
http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Waterfowl/Dabbling+Ducks/Gadwall_+ad+male_+Oct_+NJ+small.jpg.html 




Kevin Karlson

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: male Gadwall plumage
From: KEVIN karlson <karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET>
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 14:15:09 -0500
A few weeks ago, Bates Estabrook posted a photo of a male Gadwall with a 
dark crown, and wondered if it could include hybrid genes from another duck 
species. The discussion basically covered ancestral traits of anas ducks and 
reflected on the ancient traits that exist in the gene pool of certain duck 
species. I just sent a photo of a male Gadwall that I mentioned in my response 
to Bates that I noticed had a darker crown than usual, but just brushed it off 
as variable Gadwall plumage based on these ancestral traits. However, closer 
views of this photo show distinct thin white lines on the tertial feathers and 
a grayish-blue cast to the bill base, which seem to be traits of male Northern 
Pintail. I was curious to see how others view this bird, and their opinion 
about hybrid genes or just ancestral traits. Here is the link to this photo on 
my website. 
http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Waterfowl/Dabbling+Ducks/Gadwall_+ad+male_+Oct_+NJ+small.jpg.html 




Kevin Karlson

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: San Diego County Larus sp.
From: James Pawlicki <jmpawli10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:42:43 -0800
All-

Seeking comments on this apparent 2nd-cycle large gull that I observed
yesterday, 16 January 2017 at Lower Otay Lake, San Diego County,
California. Ten photos are in the eBird checklist below.

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33744930

Plumage evidently appears good for a retarded 2nd-cycle Slaty-backed Gull,
and I was hoping that others with in-range experience with 1st/2nd-cycle
Slaty-backed Gull could offer opinions.

A few concerns are the bill color and eye color, as well as the lack of
solid/unpatterned blackish-gray mantle feathers. Additionally my
impressions of the size/shape were rather Glaucous-winged Gull-like (large,
thick bill; high, centrally-placed eye with "swollen" lores; large body
size with pot-bellied shape and very short primary projection). Obviously
some of these structural traits overlap with Slaty-backed Gull, so in
theory should be ok for the species, perhaps a large male.


Jim Pawlicki
San Diego, California, USA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: California x Ring-billed Gull?
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 13:56:19 -0800
Hi all -

Mark Sawyer photographed this adult gull in central California on 6 
January 2017 and is seeking comment from Larophiles on his tentative 
identification of Ring-billed X California gull hybrid. Most or all 
features seem intermediate to me, including wing-tip patterns (p5-p7 
resembling RBGU more and p9-p10 resembling CAGU more) and it seems a 
good candidate for such a hybrid. We're also curious if this hybrid 
combination has been "confirmed" previously. I could only find 
references to "possible" hybrids between these two species (Harrison 
1983, McCarthy 2006, Howell and Dunn 2007) or any hybrid involving 
California Gull.

Thanks in advance,

Peter


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33525438 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: strange bird from Nevada reported…
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 19:41:07 -0800
Thanks Paul. I will pass that along and suggest the observer try for a photo. I 
think Pine Grosbeak would be very unusual at that location, though they breed 
in the Sierra Nevada Mts. Jeff Gilligan 



On Jan 8, 2017, at 7:38 PM, Paul Clyne  wrote:

> The general assemblage of characters might be OK for Pine Grosbeak, 
particularly for a young male of the interior West population in transitional 
plumage. I don't speak from experience; I'm looking at the plate on page 570 of 
the 2014 Sibley Guide to Birds, and all the details mentioned appear to be 
within the realm of potential variation for that species. 

> 
> Paul Clyne
> Chicago
>  
> paulclyne2000 AT yahoo.com
> 
> 
> From: Jeff Gilligan 
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
> Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2017 8:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] strange bird from Nevada reported…
> 
> The following is a description of a bird seen today at Tule Springs, near Las 
Vegas, Nevada. The description was sent to me second hand. The birder was 
described as experienced but not "expert". The description is fairly detailed, 
at least in regard to what seem to be very distinctive characteristics 
regarding the bird. I am drawing a blank as to what it could be. I don't think 
that the observer saw a regular species based on the description of his 
experience and the distinctive marks he mentions on the bird. I am not on a 
Nevada listserv, so I am posting here, since it also is an identification 
quandary, at least to me. Perhaps it is an escaped exotic? 

> 
> currently on the southern Oregon coast,
> Jeff Gilligan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > "Subject bird was in mesquite tree
> > . About the size of a Mockingbird.
> > Dark feet, dark seed eater beak.
> > Dark eyes.
> > Orange rump ala Audubon's warbler 
> > 
> > Orange crown 
> > Reddish malar area.
> > Red spot, under and behind mandible. 
> > Gray tail 3 1/2 inches, no other color in tail.
> > Gray back.
> > Light gray belly, with 4 dark "belly bars"!
> 
> 
> Archives:
> https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: strange bird from Nevada reported…
From: Christopher Hill <Chill AT COASTAL.EDU>
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 22:01:43 -0500
It sounds like a beginning birder's description of a House Finch to me. 

Chris Hill
Conway, SC
________________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeff Gilligan 
[jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM] 

Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2017 9:10 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] strange bird from Nevada reported…

The following is a description of a bird seen today at Tule Springs, near Las 
Vegas, Nevada. The description was sent to me second hand. The birder was 
described as experienced but not "expert". The description is fairly detailed, 
at least in regard to what seem to be very distinctive characteristics 
regarding the bird. I am drawing a blank as to what it could be. I don't think 
that the observer saw a regular species based on the description of his 
experience and the distinctive marks he mentions on the bird. I am not on a 
Nevada listserv, so I am posting here, since it also is an identification 
quandary, at least to me. Perhaps it is an escaped exotic? 


currently on the southern Oregon coast,
Jeff Gilligan




> "Subject bird was in mesquite tree
> . About the size of a Mockingbird.
> Dark feet, dark seed eater beak.
> Dark eyes.
> Orange rump ala Audubon's warbler
>
> Orange crown
> Reddish malar area.
> Red spot, under and behind mandible.
> Gray tail 3 1/2 inches, no other color in tail.
> Gray back.
> Light gray belly, with 4 dark "belly bars"!

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: strange bird from Nevada reported…
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 18:10:56 -0800
The following is a description of a bird seen today at Tule Springs, near Las 
Vegas, Nevada. The description was sent to me second hand. The birder was 
described as experienced but not "expert". The description is fairly detailed, 
at least in regard to what seem to be very distinctive characteristics 
regarding the bird. I am drawing a blank as to what it could be. I don't think 
that the observer saw a regular species based on the description of his 
experience and the distinctive marks he mentions on the bird. I am not on a 
Nevada listserv, so I am posting here, since it also is an identification 
quandary, at least to me. Perhaps it is an escaped exotic? 


currently on the southern Oregon coast,
Jeff Gilligan




> "Subject bird was in mesquite tree
> . About the size of a Mockingbird.
> Dark feet, dark seed eater beak.
> Dark eyes.
> Orange rump ala Audubon's warbler 
> 
> Orange crown 
> Reddish malar area.
> Red spot, under and behind mandible. 
> Gray tail 3 1/2 inches, no other color in tail.
> Gray back.
> Light gray belly, with 4 dark "belly bars"!

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Duck
From: KEVIN karlson <karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET>
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 20:18:47 -0500
Bates and all: I photographed a few of these strongly marked male Gadwall this 
past fall, and noted the same caution when I first encountered them. However, 
as several people pointed out, they are just strongly marked male Gadwalls and 
not hybrids in my opinion. Several just like this bird were present in Cape May 
this fall. Kevin Karlson 

> On January 6, 2017 at 7:27 AM Bates Estabrooks  wrote:
> 
> 
> I took these (poor) photos yesterday at a pond SW of Oak Ridge, TN. I need ID 
help with the duck in the center. I want to say Gadwall, but the head pattern 
seems off. 

> 
> 
> Thanks much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNtTfboLtT-hRIh2Bym79QxVW4MShfI9wSYO3jIUOB_QudL9owNJqppYgVs6Sx79g?key=T0NxWjdGaGtxXzJHWHNaSjJaNFBXR1JqcmdDSmtB 

> 
> 
> Bates Estabrooks
> 
> Tennessee
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Duck
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 16:57:00 +0000
This is a seemingly normal variation expressed in some male Gadwall. I am happy 
to see Martin Reid put words to a theory that I arrived at a couple years back 
and have shared in other forums and in many private discussions. Under close 
scrutiny the head patterns of almost all male Anas ducks show at least a 
diffuse head stripe/wedge. Often it just enhanced iridescence. Living in the 
land of Nike, I call it a "swoosh" stripe (upside down). 


What lead me to conclude that this stripe is a trait is ancestral is the fact 
that when Anas hybridize the male offspring typically have a fairly conspicuous 
swoosh stripe even when neither parent species shows an obvious stripe. 
Brewer's Duck (Mallard X Gadwall) is perhaps the best example of this. 


Dave Irons

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 6, 2017, at 7:52 AM, Martin Reid  wrote:
> 
> All,
> There is a small but meaningful difference between Bates’ bird and those 
discussed/illustrated in preceding comments: The rear of the crown and upper 
nape are pale gray (similar to lower cheeks), and the forecrown is also pale 
but has a buffy tinge. This might suggest that some wigeon genes are in this 
individual’s recent genetic past, but there are a couple of phenomena that 
could explain this bird’s appearance. 

> 
> Ancestral re-expression: Here is a snippet I wrote years ago regarding a 
similar situation: 

> “I feel that many (but not all) cases of male ducks that show some form of 
curved green wedge behind the eye, are not due to the direct influence of 
recent hybridization with a relative that has this plumage feature, but instead 
are due to an expression of a normally-suppressed element of the genome that 
lingers in all the dabbling ducks from their common ancestor. 

> We don't know what the common ancestor of the dabbling duck tribe looked 
like, but we can make some educated (?) guesses using Baikal Teal as a model, 
since Baikal Teal split off from all other dabblers long before the later 
radiation into the species we are now familiar with (Johnson and Sorenson. 
Comparing Molecular evolution in two mitochondrial protein coding genes 
(Cytochrome b and ND2) in the dabbling ducks (tribe Anatini). MOLECULAR 
PHYLOGENETICS AND EVOLUTION Vol. 10, No. 1, August, pp. 82-94, 1998). 

> Thus I speculate that the common ancestor had some form of green curved wedge 
behind the eye, and this is why this feature is part of the normal plumage of 
so many current species. 

> I think that this explains why so many non-standard individuals of our 
dabblers have the shared feature of this curved green wedge in some form. I 
have heard birders say that a Blue-winged Teal with such a green wedge is a 
hybrid with Green-winged Teal, and similarly for Cinnamon Teal so-adorned. I 
don’t think such birds necessarily have any recent hybrid genes in their 
make-ups, but instead bare the re-expression of an ancient family trait.“ 

> 
> Secondly, as mentioned in an earlier reply, there is a theory that as 
individual males get older they get a stronger facial pattern, with a green 
wedge developing plus more contrast between this green wedge and the 
surrounding feathers. This is dramatically illustrated in the so-called 
“Storm Wigeon” - see pic 
(http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/amwi.html) or search for this term 
for numerous examples online. 

> This process would be a simple explanation for most, if not all, examples of 
dabbling ducks that have a non-typical extent of green behind the eye (but 
otherwise look normal) - as opposed to these birds being recent hybrids. 

> 
> Cheers,
> martin
> 
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 6, 2017, at Jan 6, 6:27 AM, Bates Estabrooks  
wrote: 

>> 
>> I took these (poor) photos yesterday at a pond SW of Oak Ridge, TN. I need 
ID help with the duck in the center. I want to say Gadwall, but the head 
pattern seems off. 

>> 
>> 
>> Thanks much.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNtTfboLtT-hRIh2Bym79QxVW4MShfI9wSYO3jIUOB_QudL9owNJqppYgVs6Sx79g?key=T0NxWjdGaGtxXzJHWHNaSjJaNFBXR1JqcmdDSmtB 

>> 
>> 
>> Bates Estabrooks
>> 
>> Tennessee
>> 
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Duck
From: Cathy Sheeter <hawkcall AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 16:03:47 +0000
And FWIW I believe the pale edge on the crown/neck is an artifact of reflected 
light/rim lighting as the bird is mostly lit from behind. Just my opinion, but 
those areas doesn't truly look light brown to my eye. 


Cathy Sheeter
www.cathysheeter.com

> On Jan 6, 2017, at 10:52 AM, Martin Reid  wrote:
> 
> All,
> There is a small but meaningful difference between Bates’ bird and those 
discussed/illustrated in preceding comments: The rear of the crown and upper 
nape are pale gray (similar to lower cheeks), and the forecrown is also pale 
but has a buffy tinge. This might suggest that some wigeon genes are in this 
individual’s recent genetic past, but there are a couple of phenomena that 
could explain this bird’s appearance. 

> 
> Ancestral re-expression: Here is a snippet I wrote years ago regarding a 
similar situation: 

> “I feel that many (but not all) cases of male ducks that show some form of 
curved green wedge behind the eye, are not due to the direct influence of 
recent hybridization with a relative that has this plumage feature, but instead 
are due to an expression of a normally-suppressed element of the genome that 
lingers in all the dabbling ducks from their common ancestor. 

> We don't know what the common ancestor of the dabbling duck tribe looked 
like, but we can make some educated (?) guesses using Baikal Teal as a model, 
since Baikal Teal split off from all other dabblers long before the later 
radiation into the species we are now familiar with (Johnson and Sorenson. 
Comparing Molecular evolution in two mitochondrial protein coding genes 
(Cytochrome b and ND2) in the dabbling ducks (tribe Anatini). MOLECULAR 
PHYLOGENETICS AND EVOLUTION Vol. 10, No. 1, August, pp. 82-94, 1998). 

> Thus I speculate that the common ancestor had some form of green curved wedge 
behind the eye, and this is why this feature is part of the normal plumage of 
so many current species. 

> I think that this explains why so many non-standard individuals of our 
dabblers have the shared feature of this curved green wedge in some form. I 
have heard birders say that a Blue-winged Teal with such a green wedge is a 
hybrid with Green-winged Teal, and similarly for Cinnamon Teal so-adorned. I 
don’t think such birds necessarily have any recent hybrid genes in their 
make-ups, but instead bare the re-expression of an ancient family trait.“ 

> 
> Secondly, as mentioned in an earlier reply, there is a theory that as 
individual males get older they get a stronger facial pattern, with a green 
wedge developing plus more contrast between this green wedge and the 
surrounding feathers. This is dramatically illustrated in the so-called 
“Storm Wigeon” - see pic 
(http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/amwi.html) or search for this term 
for numerous examples online. 

> This process would be a simple explanation for most, if not all, examples of 
dabbling ducks that have a non-typical extent of green behind the eye (but 
otherwise look normal) - as opposed to these birds being recent hybrids. 

> 
> Cheers,
> martin
> 
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 6, 2017, at Jan 6, 6:27 AM, Bates Estabrooks  
wrote: 

>> 
>> I took these (poor) photos yesterday at a pond SW of Oak Ridge, TN. I need 
ID help with the duck in the center. I want to say Gadwall, but the head 
pattern seems off. 

>> 
>> 
>> Thanks much.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNtTfboLtT-hRIh2Bym79QxVW4MShfI9wSYO3jIUOB_QudL9owNJqppYgVs6Sx79g?key=T0NxWjdGaGtxXzJHWHNaSjJaNFBXR1JqcmdDSmtB 

>> 
>> 
>> Bates Estabrooks
>> 
>> Tennessee
>> 
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Duck
From: Martin Reid <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 09:52:10 -0600
All,
There is a small but meaningful difference between Bates’ bird and those 
discussed/illustrated in preceding comments: The rear of the crown and upper 
nape are pale gray (similar to lower cheeks), and the forecrown is also pale 
but has a buffy tinge. This might suggest that some wigeon genes are in this 
individual’s recent genetic past, but there are a couple of phenomena that 
could explain this bird’s appearance. 


Ancestral re-expression: Here is a snippet I wrote years ago regarding a 
similar situation: 

“I feel that many (but not all) cases of male ducks that show some form of 
curved green wedge behind the eye, are not due to the direct influence of 
recent hybridization with a relative that has this plumage feature, but instead 
are due to an expression of a normally-suppressed element of the genome that 
lingers in all the dabbling ducks from their common ancestor. 

We don't know what the common ancestor of the dabbling duck tribe looked like, 
but we can make some educated (?) guesses using Baikal Teal as a model, since 
Baikal Teal split off from all other dabblers long before the later radiation 
into the species we are now familiar with (Johnson and Sorenson. Comparing 
Molecular evolution in two mitochondrial protein coding genes (Cytochrome b and 
ND2) in the dabbling ducks (tribe Anatini). MOLECULAR PHYLOGENETICS AND 
EVOLUTION Vol. 10, No. 1, August, pp. 82-94, 1998). 

Thus I speculate that the common ancestor had some form of green curved wedge 
behind the eye, and this is why this feature is part of the normal plumage of 
so many current species. 

 I think that this explains why so many non-standard individuals of our 
dabblers have the shared feature of this curved green wedge in some form. I 
have heard birders say that a Blue-winged Teal with such a green wedge is a 
hybrid with Green-winged Teal, and similarly for Cinnamon Teal so-adorned. I 
don’t think such birds necessarily have any recent hybrid genes in their 
make-ups, but instead bare the re-expression of an ancient family trait.“ 


Secondly, as mentioned in an earlier reply, there is a theory that as 
individual males get older they get a stronger facial pattern, with a green 
wedge developing plus more contrast between this green wedge and the 
surrounding feathers. This is dramatically illustrated in the so-called 
“Storm Wigeon” - see pic 
(http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/amwi.html) or search for this term 
for numerous examples online. 

This process would be a simple explanation for most, if not all, examples of 
dabbling ducks that have a non-typical extent of green behind the eye (but 
otherwise look normal) - as opposed to these birds being recent hybrids. 


Cheers,
martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com



> On Jan 6, 2017, at Jan 6, 6:27 AM, Bates Estabrooks  wrote:
> 
> I took these (poor) photos yesterday at a pond SW of Oak Ridge, TN. I need ID 
help with the duck in the center. I want to say Gadwall, but the head pattern 
seems off. 

> 
> 
> Thanks much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNtTfboLtT-hRIh2Bym79QxVW4MShfI9wSYO3jIUOB_QudL9owNJqppYgVs6Sx79g?key=T0NxWjdGaGtxXzJHWHNaSjJaNFBXR1JqcmdDSmtB 

> 
> 
> Bates Estabrooks
> 
> Tennessee
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Duck
From: Michael Todd <birder1 AT BELLSOUTH.NET>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 14:01:52 +0000
Bates,
I don't really see anything on the bird, other than the head pattern to suggest 
other than Gadwall. I've seen quite a few of these very high contrast head 
pattern birds, that in other aspects look entirely like a typical Gadwall. I 
would suggest your first impression of Gadwall was correct. This pattern is 
mentioned in Reeber's Waterfowl of Europe, Asia and North America. He mentions 
it is most commonly seen in North America, and may reflect an ancient sign of 
hybridization, but considers it a Gadwall. Are we seeing anything off on the 
bird in the photos other than the head pattern? 

Good birding!
Michael ToddJackson, TNwww.pbase.com/mctodd 

    On Friday, January 6, 2017 7:49 AM, The HH75  wrote:
 

 Hi Bates,
    I think Larry is on to something, though, obviously, the wigeon parent
would likely be American Wigeon over there. I have found a few images of
presumed Gadwall x Eurasian Wigeon online and these look quite similar to
the subject bird.

 Regards,

Harry Hussey, Cork, Ireland

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 12:27 PM, Bates Estabrooks  wrote:

> I took these (poor) photos yesterday at a pond SW of Oak Ridge, TN.  I
> need ID help with the duck in the center.  I want to say Gadwall, but the
> head pattern seems off.
>
>
> Thanks much.
>
>
>
> https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNtTfboLtT-
> hRIh2Bym79QxVW4MShfI9wSYO3jIUOB_QudL9owNJqppYgVs6Sx79g?key=
> T0NxWjdGaGtxXzJHWHNaSjJaNFBXR1JqcmdDSmtB
>
>
> Bates Estabrooks
>
> Tennessee
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


   

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Duck
From: Cathy Sheeter <hawkcall AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 13:55:57 +0000
To be the voice of discent, this bird looks perfect for an adult male Gadwall - 
just a more strongly marked individual. I see no indication of hybrid. Adult 
males can get quite strong contrast on the upper half of the hear, and 
sometimes a strong maroon to purple sheen (which like all irridecence can look 
different at different angles). I was told once (though do not have science to 
back it up) that older males have stronger contrasting head patterns than 
younger males. Wigeon x Gadwall hybrids show some degree of blue on the bill, 
not the long solid dark bill of this bird and some structural aspect to suggest 
hybrid ancestry, which this bird does not show i(if you cover the head you will 
see a perfect normal male Gadwall body). To me this is without a doubt just a 
good ole', under appreciated for their beauty, heavily marked Gadwall. You can 
see a close up head shot of a strongly marked individual here: 
http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/attachments/_dsc3915_1-jpg.153443/ and many 
other photos of contrasting headed Gadwalls online. Some are just superb! 



Cathy Sheeter
www.cathysheeter.com


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of The HH75  

Sent: Friday, January 6, 2017 5:49 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Duck

Hi Bates,
    I think Larry is on to something, though, obviously, the wigeon parent
would likely be American Wigeon over there. I have found a few images of
presumed Gadwall x Eurasian Wigeon online and these look quite similar to
the subject bird.

 Regards,

Harry Hussey, Cork, Ireland

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 12:27 PM, Bates Estabrooks  wrote:

> I took these (poor) photos yesterday at a pond SW of Oak Ridge, TN.  I
> need ID help with the duck in the center.  I want to say Gadwall, but the
> head pattern seems off.
>
>
> Thanks much.
>
>
>
> https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNtTfboLtT-
> hRIh2Bym79QxVW4MShfI9wSYO3jIUOB_QudL9owNJqppYgVs6Sx79g?key=
> T0NxWjdGaGtxXzJHWHNaSjJaNFBXR1JqcmdDSmtB
>
>
> Bates Estabrooks
>
> Tennessee
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Duck
From: Deborah Allen <dallenyc AT EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 08:55:48 -0500
Hi Bates & Larry,

Here's a photo of a male Gadwall taken in early December that resembles your 
bird: 


http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=18329951

It seems that some males have darker caps than others. The bill color (black) 
and undertail (black), pale gray tertials, and other markings are certainly 
fine for male Gadwall. I see no reason to think that this bird is a hybrid. 


Deb Allen


-----Original Message-----
>From: Bates Estabrooks 
>Sent: Jan 6, 2017 7:27 AM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Duck
>
>I took these (poor) photos yesterday at a pond SW of Oak Ridge, TN. I need ID 
help with the duck in the center. I want to say Gadwall, but the head pattern 
seems off. 

>
>
>Thanks much.
>
>
>

>https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNtTfboLtT-hRIh2Bym79QxVW4MShfI9wSYO3jIUOB_QudL9owNJqppYgVs6Sx79g?key=T0NxWjdGaGtxXzJHWHNaSjJaNFBXR1JqcmdDSmtB 

>
>
>Bates Estabrooks
>
>Tennessee
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Duck
From: The HH75 <hhussey3 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 13:49:51 +0000
Hi Bates,
    I think Larry is on to something, though, obviously, the wigeon parent
would likely be American Wigeon over there. I have found a few images of
presumed Gadwall x Eurasian Wigeon online and these look quite similar to
the subject bird.

 Regards,

Harry Hussey, Cork, Ireland

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 12:27 PM, Bates Estabrooks  wrote:

> I took these (poor) photos yesterday at a pond SW of Oak Ridge, TN.  I
> need ID help with the duck in the center.  I want to say Gadwall, but the
> head pattern seems off.
>
>
> Thanks much.
>
>
>
> https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNtTfboLtT-
> hRIh2Bym79QxVW4MShfI9wSYO3jIUOB_QudL9owNJqppYgVs6Sx79g?key=
> T0NxWjdGaGtxXzJHWHNaSjJaNFBXR1JqcmdDSmtB
>
>
> Bates Estabrooks
>
> Tennessee
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Mystery Duck
From: Bates Estabrooks <wgpu AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:27:31 +0000
I took these (poor) photos yesterday at a pond SW of Oak Ridge, TN. I need ID 
help with the duck in the center. I want to say Gadwall, but the head pattern 
seems off. 



Thanks much.




https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNtTfboLtT-hRIh2Bym79QxVW4MShfI9wSYO3jIUOB_QudL9owNJqppYgVs6Sx79g?key=T0NxWjdGaGtxXzJHWHNaSjJaNFBXR1JqcmdDSmtB 



Bates Estabrooks

Tennessee

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Black-throated Gray Warbler Sex/Age
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:09:38 -0800
I agree this is certainly a fist-winter bird by the molt limits, but 
I'm not as sure that this is a female, though agree it could be. Many 
formative females are duller with less black in the crown and throat, 
for example,
http://www.birdphotography.com/species/photos/btyw-6.jpg

On the other hand, many formative males are bolder than this bird, 
with more black and without thin shaft streaks to the median covert 
tips, as Ashli thoroughly and correctly describes. All criteria can 
be variable and it is not unusual in first-winter Setophaga to have 
one or two not fit a typical pattern for a given sex, and for there 
to be some overlap. I guess my conservative leaning would be sex 
unknown. Perhaps it will stick around until the prealternate molt in 
March-April and sex can be confirmed.

Peter

At 12:55 PM 1/2/2017, Ashli Gorbet wrote:
>What a great January bird for D.C.!
>
>
>This bird appears to be a second year individual based on the 
>slightly abraded and brownish flight feathers and rectrices, as well 
>as contrastingly dull primary coverts. The lack of black in the 
>throat, as well as the gray cheek, mostly grayish crown, gray and 
>indistinct flank streaks, and slightly brownish washed back without 
>black centers to individual feathers all indicate female. A male 
>should be more blue gray above, have more black in the crown, a 
>darker cheek (mostly blackish), more contrasting wingbar and flight 
>feather edges (greater coverts black with white versus gray with 
>white), and would show bolder, blacker flank-streaking.
>
>
>I would caution folks against sexing this species based on throat 
>pattern alone as I have seen many females with nearly completely 
>black throats. Most birders would likely call these birds males 
>based on depictions in field guides which tend to make people think 
>there are only two possible throat patterns in this species. I can 
>say with certainty, after years spent in the field studying this 
>species, that females have quite a range of throat patterns from the 
>near-"male" pattern I describe to what field guides typically depict 
>as females (what this D.C. bird displays). While a bird with a 
>throat this white is a female, not all birds with black throats are 
>males. In fact, at my study site in Central New Mexico, I found many 
>more females tending toward completely black throats than completely 
>light throats. The typical female at my site showed a beautiful 
>marble-like pattern of black and white in their throats. In all the 
>years I studied BTWY, I think I only had one bird that showed the 
>throat pattern of this bird. They are definitely in the minority, at 
>least where I did my work.
>
>
>While I was never able to observe the progression (or lack thereof) 
>of throat pattern in an individual female, my feeling is that birds 
>with the whitest throats are young females and after their first 
>adult prebasic molt they acquire more black. Whether that amount of 
>black is then "set" for the remainder of that bird's life or 
>continues to progress in subsequent molts would be an interesting 
>thing to study. Perhaps someone out there has experience with this 
>and could help shed light on the topic?
>
>
>Again, this is a really fantastic bird for this time of year. We 
>don't typically get to see them in January, so I appreciate you 
>sharing the pictures and inquiring. I'd love to hear other folks' 
>experiences as well if you have additional/differing observations.
>
>
>Thanks, Hugh.
>
>
>Ashli Gorbet
>
>
>Black Swamp Bird Observatory
>
>Oak Harbor, OH
>
>
>________________________________
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
> on behalf of Hugh McGuinness 
>
>Sent: Monday, January 2, 2017 12:39 PM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Black-throated Gray Warbler Sex/Age
>
>The District of Columbia is currently enjoying its first BLACK-THROATED
>GRAY WARBLER. I believe the individual, shown in the links below, is an
>adult female b/c of the lack of black on the throat, the lack of buffy
>flanks, and the well developed blue-gray color of the upper parts. I would
>love to hear confirmation or rejection from people more experienced with
>the species than I.
>
>http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33305407
>
>http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33297839
>
>http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33310600
>
>http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33309050
>
>Thanks, Hugh
>
>Hugh McGuinness
>Washington, D.C.
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Black-throated Gray Warbler Sex/Age
From: Ashli Gorbet <antelope916 AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 20:55:55 +0000
What a great January bird for D.C.!


This bird appears to be a second year individual based on the slightly abraded 
and brownish flight feathers and rectrices, as well as contrastingly dull 
primary coverts. The lack of black in the throat, as well as the gray cheek, 
mostly grayish crown, gray and indistinct flank streaks, and slightly brownish 
washed back without black centers to individual feathers all indicate female. A 
male should be more blue gray above, have more black in the crown, a darker 
cheek (mostly blackish), more contrasting wingbar and flight feather edges 
(greater coverts black with white versus gray with white), and would show 
bolder, blacker flank-streaking. 



I would caution folks against sexing this species based on throat pattern alone 
as I have seen many females with nearly completely black throats. Most birders 
would likely call these birds males based on depictions in field guides which 
tend to make people think there are only two possible throat patterns in this 
species. I can say with certainty, after years spent in the field studying this 
species, that females have quite a range of throat patterns from the 
near-"male" pattern I describe to what field guides typically depict as females 
(what this D.C. bird displays). While a bird with a throat this white is a 
female, not all birds with black throats are males. In fact, at my study site 
in Central New Mexico, I found many more females tending toward completely 
black throats than completely light throats. The typical female at my site 
showed a beautiful marble-like pattern of black and white in their throats. In 
all the years I studied BTWY, I think I only had one bird that showed the 
throat pattern of this bird. They are definitely in the minority, at least 
where I did my work. 



While I was never able to observe the progression (or lack thereof) of throat 
pattern in an individual female, my feeling is that birds with the whitest 
throats are young females and after their first adult prebasic molt they 
acquire more black. Whether that amount of black is then "set" for the 
remainder of that bird's life or continues to progress in subsequent molts 
would be an interesting thing to study. Perhaps someone out there has 
experience with this and could help shed light on the topic? 



Again, this is a really fantastic bird for this time of year. We don't 
typically get to see them in January, so I appreciate you sharing the pictures 
and inquiring. I'd love to hear other folks' experiences as well if you have 
additional/differing observations. 



Thanks, Hugh.


Ashli Gorbet


Black Swamp Bird Observatory

Oak Harbor, OH


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Hugh McGuinness 
 

Sent: Monday, January 2, 2017 12:39 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Black-throated Gray Warbler Sex/Age

The District of Columbia is currently enjoying its first BLACK-THROATED
GRAY WARBLER. I believe the individual, shown in the links below, is an
adult female b/c of the lack of black on the throat, the lack of buffy
flanks, and the well developed blue-gray color of the upper parts. I would
love to hear confirmation or rejection from people more experienced with
the species than I.

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33305407

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33297839

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33310600

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33309050

Thanks, Hugh

Hugh McGuinness
Washington, D.C.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Black-throated Gray Warbler Sex/Age
From: Shaibal Mitra <Shaibal.Mitra AT CSI.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 20:48:13 +0000
To my eye, the contrast between the black-centered, neatly edged, greater 
secondary coverts and the much browner, more worn-looking primary coverts, 
suggest a bird in formative plumage (second calendar year = SY, as of 
yesterday). 


Best,
Shai
________________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] on behalf of Hugh McGuinness 
[hdmcguinness AT GMAIL.COM] 

Sent: Monday, January 2, 2017 2:39 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Black-throated Gray Warbler Sex/Age

The District of Columbia is currently enjoying its first BLACK-THROATED
GRAY WARBLER. I believe the individual, shown in the links below, is an
adult female b/c of the lack of black on the throat, the lack of buffy
flanks, and the well developed blue-gray color of the upper parts. I would
love to hear confirmation or rejection from people more experienced with
the species than I.

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33305407

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33297839

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33310600

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33309050

Thanks, Hugh

Hugh McGuinness
Washington, D.C.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Black-throated Gray Warbler Sex/Age
From: Hugh McGuinness <hdmcguinness AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 14:39:29 -0500
The District of Columbia is currently enjoying its first BLACK-THROATED
GRAY WARBLER. I believe the individual, shown in the links below, is an
adult female b/c of the lack of black on the throat, the lack of buffy
flanks, and the well developed blue-gray color of the upper parts. I would
love to hear confirmation or rejection from people more experienced with
the species than I.

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33305407

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33297839

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33310600

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33309050

Thanks, Hugh

Hugh McGuinness
Washington, D.C.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: RFI: Rock Sandpiper Soft Parts Coloration
From: Jeremy Gatten <jarofme AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 04:56:32 +0000
Hi all,


On December 30th, 2016, I found what would normally be presumed to be a Rock 
Sandpiper on a nearshore islet along the Victoria, BC waterfront. The bird I 
was looking at, however, had a very bright orange bill base and vibrant 
creamsicle orange legs. I had to rush off and didn't have a lot of time to 
study the bird and did not get any photos, but when I got home that night I 
realized it bore a stronger resemblance to Purple Sandpiper than it did to a 
Rock Sandpiper. I urged birders to get out to look for the bird and get some 
photo documentation. Daniel Donnecke took a very solid approach and kayaked to 
Little Trial Island on December 31st and managed to find the bird and then 
tracked it over to the Victoria Golf Course where he managed some record shots. 
We are aware that this bird cannot be definitively identified from the photos 
available, so that is not the intent of my inquiry. 



To see Daniel's record photos, see his decent record shots here: 
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33323094 



My response pertains to the general response that Purple Sandpipers cannot be 
identified by soft parts coloration because there are examples of Rock 
Sandpipers that have a very bright bill base and legs. I would be interested in 
seeing some examples of these bright Rock Sandpipers to get a sense of what the 
known extreme looks like and see how it compares to the Victoria bird. I 
understand that there is overlap, but I am wondering if the overlap is complete 
(i.e., the drabbest billed PUSAs look identifical to the drabbest ROSAs and the 
brightest ROSAs look like the brightest PUSAs) or if nearly all field 
identifications in the late fall/winter are based purely on allopatry. 



I am grateful for any examples of extremely bright Rock Sandpipers and also any 
input on the Victoria bird. Purple Sandpiper would be a first provincial record 
for British Columbia, so I am hoping local birders can compile a bunch of 
documentation over the next while, including flight/spread wing shots. This 
will be no small feat as the bird may stick to nearshore islets that are 20+ 
meters (~60 ft) away and the lighting has been really tricky (late day and 
backlit). This is an extraordinary claim and I know it requires extraordinary 
evidence, so I really hope it can all come together! 



Thanks and Happy New Year,

Jeremy Gatten

Saanichton, BC


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 16:59:24 -0800
Hi all -

My impression having looked at a lot of specimens and trying to 
figure out Fox Sparrows on the Farallones in the 1980-90s is that 
altivagans is somewhat of an intergrade swarm taxon between Pacific 
Coastal, Boreal/Eastern, and, to a lesser extent Great Basin 
subspecies groups. In this manner it is similar to merrilli Song 
Sparrows, cismontanus Dark-eyed Juncos, and other taxa that have 
subspecies or species groups meeting in British Columbia. As such, 
altivagans is a variable taxon that shows more Pacific tendencies 
toward the western portion of the range, more Eastern tendencies 
toward the northern and eastern portions of the range, and more Great 
Basin tendencies toward the southern portion of the range. The 
problem with birds outside of the breeding range is that it is easy 
to assign almost anything that doesn't fit expectations into the 
"altivagans" pot, resulting in some circular reasoning on what 
exactly altivagans is. This may not be an incorrect approach, 
however. I'm grateful to Steve and others for taking us to the next 
level in trying to figure this out.

Last year Lucas DeCicco sent to me some Fox Sparrow specimens from 
Middleton Island, Alaska, for subspecies assessment in comparison 
with specimens at MVZ. My comments are below, and I'll be happy to 
share my photographs to those interested enough in this, though I'll 
be "off-line" now for about a week.

Best to all for 2017,

Peter

Lucas DeCicco: we have a long series of fall birds from Middleton, 
many of which we identified based on comparable material at UAM. We 
have three specimens that we would like your opinion on. Two birds 
show olive tones to their plumage, we are assuming this is some type 
of plumage aberration not linked to subspecies, but would like your 
opinion. The third specimen (UAM34532) troubles me greatly as it does 
not appear to match any intergrade combination of Alaska breeding 
taxa. In my uneducated opinion, it appears similar to a 
schistacea-group taxon, but I would greatly appreciate an educated 
opinion on this. This bird may be best left without a name. If you 
would like, we can also send a couple specimens from Middleton that 
we identified as intergrade sinuosa x zaboria for comparison (the 
only combination that comes close in plumage aspect to the specimen 
in question).

Peter Pyle:

Upon initial inspection these grouped as follows to me:

UAM 30809 - more rufous than the other four specimens
UAM 34529 and 34532 slightly grayer than UAM 34530 and 34537
UAM 34530 and 34537 slightly browner than UAM 34529 and 34532

UAM 30809 falls within the series identified at MVZ as altivagans. I 
believe that this subspecies is an integrade swarm between zaboria, 
sooty subspecies to the west, and schistacea (see below). It appears 
closer to the specimens labeled altivagans than to a bird identified 
as Swarth as zaboria x townsendi (MVZ 42418) but to me this latter 
specimen could also be placed within the wide range of variation 
found among altivagans.

Photos (left to right):
MVZ 31257 zaboria California
MVZ 42418 zaboria x townsendi Hazelton BC
UAM 30889
MVZ 26039 altivagans Hazelton BC
MVZ 9660 townsendi AK

All four of UAM 34529, 34532, 34530, and 34537 also are matched best 
by specimens labeled altivagans. They are generally grayer on the 
back and less-marked on the breast than specimens of any of the Sooty 
subspecies but redder and heavier marked on the breast than specimens 
of schistacea. I believe that subspecies altivagans is like merrilli 
Song Sparrows (see Johnson et al. 2013, Western Birds 44:162-170) and 
cismontanus juncos in representing genetic hodge-podges of NW 
coastal, Boreal/Eastern, and Great Basin subspecies groups which come 
together in central BC. These subspecies tend to vary a lot and show 
characters closer to the peripheral groups as one approaches the 
respective edges of the swarm area. Maybe altivagans should not be 
considered a valid subspecies but I believe that all five of your 
birds come from this swarm, with the redder 30889 influenced more by 
zaboria/townsendi and the other four more with schistacea 
introgression. I should also note that many specimens at MVZ, 
especially those collected in California, show a lot of variation 
such that some labeled fuliginosa and others labeled schistacea also 
come close to one or more of the UAM birds, but for all we know these 
birds may also originate from the "altivagans" area.

Photos (all fresh fall birds, matching UAM specimens closest):
MVZ 80564 fuliginosa
UAM 34532-34529-34530-34537
MVZ 88125 altavagans
MVZ 12188 altavagans
MVZ 12189 altavagans
MVZ 27373 schistacea

At 08:00 AM 12/30/2016, Steve Hampton wrote:
>Jason,
>
>Thanks for these pics!  Breeding ground pics of many FOSP are hard to come
>by.  These pics and everything you say are consistent with my understanding
>of altivagans as well.  In these pics, I note the wingbars and tertial tips
>are negligible-- I wonder if that is thru wear (as these birds are in
>April).  Either way, they would have been quite small to begin with.
>
>thanks!
>
>
>
>On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 7:35 AM, Jason Rogers  wrote:
>
> > Hi Andrew,
> >
> > The birds in this checklist are what I consider altivagans -
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S23038540
> >
> > Though the observer has called one a Red and the other a Slate-colored, I
> > believe both are just variations of altivagans, which is the subspecies to
> > be expected at that location.
> >
> > Comparing these to Red, they're darker grey above and the browns are less
> > red. Head markings, mantle streaking, and wing bars are subtler. Bills are
> > greyer. P. i. schistacea seems to have blacker markings below. But I'd also
> > be interested in hearing from others on this.
> >
> > Jason Rogers
> > Calgary, AB
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> > BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> on behalf of Andrew Spencer <
> > gwwarbler AT GMAIL.COM>
> > Sent: December 26, 2016 2:43 AM
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The recent (and very informative) discussion about the Sooty Fox Sparrow in
> > Newfoundland has reminded me of a topic I've been meaning to ask about
> > here.  Namely, what does altivagans Fox Sparrow actually look like?  My
> > impression of what is generally considered this form is a bird that looks
> > like a dull Red Fox Sparrow, quite a bit better marked than a Slate-colored
> > bird, but without much in the way of foxy tones.  A photo on this ebird
> > article:
> > http://ebird.org/content/nw/news/fox-sparrows-one-of-the-
> > northwests-more-confusing-species/
> > [http://ebird.org/content/nw/wp-content/uploads/sites/61/
> > Figure_2-520x634.jpg] 
> sparrows-one-of-the-northwests-more-confusing-species/>
> >
> > Fox Sparrows - one of the Northwest's more confusing ...<
> > http://ebird.org/content/nw/news/fox-sparrows-one-of-
> > the-northwests-more-confusing-species/>
> > ebird.org
> > Four groups of Fox Sparrows occur in our region; few other parts of the
> > country can claim that distinction. Three breed in the region and one is a
> > scarce winter visitant.
> >
> >
> > (most of the way down the page), and the one mid-way down this page:
> > http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MTYbirdsFOSP2.html demonstrate what
> > [http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MTYbirds-FOSP/
> > FOSP-sch19Jun01Glacer-GWLzz.jpg] 
> montereybay.com/MTYbirdsFOSP2.html>
> >
> > Slate-colored Fox Sparrow - Monterey Bay 
> montereybay.com/MTYbirdsFOSP2.html>
> > creagrus.home.montereybay.com
> > The Slate-colored Fox Sparrow group is a set of populations that breed in
> > the interior of western North America, primarily the Rockies and isolated
> > mountains in the ...
> >
> >
> > I'm talking about.
> >
> > However, more recently I began noticing that essentially all photos of
> > putative altivagans are from the wintering grounds, and mostly from CA or
> > OR.  After a trip to Alaska, where I saw some rather dull Red Fox Sparrows,
> > and especially after a trip to Central Alberta/BC I was wondering if these
> > birds really are altivagans?  The birds I saw there looked very similar to
> > Slate-colored, but a bit more well marked and brighter.  Granted, I was a
> > bit south of the type locality, but not by a lot.  A couple of photos of
> > these birds can be seen here:
> > https://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33199849.  I also extensively
> > recorded the Fox Sparrows in this area, and as one would expect from the
> > plumage, the vocals also matched Slate-colored.
> >
> > The type description of altivagans also gives me some doubt that birds as
> > well marked as the ones I alluded to earlier in this email are actually
> > representative of the taxon, and would lead me to expect something closer
> > to the Slate-colored birds that I'm more familiar with from living in CO
> > and what I photographed in Jasper.  Unfortunately the type specimen is a
> > juvenile bird, and also purported to be in bad shape (I haven't seen it).
> > I did track down some other specimens from both north and south of the type
> > locality, and they did NOT appear to be as well marked as nearly all the
> > birds reported as altivagans further south, and thus closer to
> > Slate-colored.  But I would also add a big caveat that I found the
> > differences between Fox Sparrow groups to be less obvious in old specimens
> > than in life.
> >
> > SO, what I would be interested in knowing is a) what do birders in the
> > lower 48, especially in the west, consider an altivagans Fox Sparrow to be?
> > and b) what do birders in western Alberta and E BC consider it to be?  Does
> > anyone have more photos from the purported range?  Are the birds that are
> > commonly reported to be altivagans actually that taxon, or are they
> > intergrade Red x Slate-colored, or are those two things one and the same?
> >
> > I very much appreciate any light that any of you can throw on this topic,
> > and look forward to hearing what you all have to say,
> >
> > Andrew Spencer
> > Ithaca, NY
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
>
>
>
>--
>Steve Hampton
>Davis, CA
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 08:00:54 -0800
Jason,

Thanks for these pics!  Breeding ground pics of many FOSP are hard to come
by.  These pics and everything you say are consistent with my understanding
of altivagans as well.  In these pics, I note the wingbars and tertial tips
are negligible-- I wonder if that is thru wear (as these birds are in
April).  Either way, they would have been quite small to begin with.

thanks!



On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 7:35 AM, Jason Rogers  wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> The birds in this checklist are what I consider altivagans -
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S23038540
>
> Though the observer has called one a Red and the other a Slate-colored, I
> believe both are just variations of altivagans, which is the subspecies to
> be expected at that location.
>
> Comparing these to Red, they're darker grey above and the browns are less
> red. Head markings, mantle streaking, and wing bars are subtler. Bills are
> greyer. P. i. schistacea seems to have blacker markings below. But I'd also
> be interested in hearing from others on this.
>
> Jason Rogers
> Calgary, AB
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> on behalf of Andrew Spencer <
> gwwarbler AT GMAIL.COM>
> Sent: December 26, 2016 2:43 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow
>
> Hi all,
>
> The recent (and very informative) discussion about the Sooty Fox Sparrow in
> Newfoundland has reminded me of a topic I've been meaning to ask about
> here.  Namely, what does altivagans Fox Sparrow actually look like?  My
> impression of what is generally considered this form is a bird that looks
> like a dull Red Fox Sparrow, quite a bit better marked than a Slate-colored
> bird, but without much in the way of foxy tones.  A photo on this ebird
> article:
> http://ebird.org/content/nw/news/fox-sparrows-one-of-the-
> northwests-more-confusing-species/
> [http://ebird.org/content/nw/wp-content/uploads/sites/61/
> Figure_2-520x634.jpg] sparrows-one-of-the-northwests-more-confusing-species/>
>
> Fox Sparrows - one of the Northwest's more confusing ...<
> http://ebird.org/content/nw/news/fox-sparrows-one-of-
> the-northwests-more-confusing-species/>
> ebird.org
> Four groups of Fox Sparrows occur in our region; few other parts of the
> country can claim that distinction. Three breed in the region and one is a
> scarce winter visitant.
>
>
> (most of the way down the page), and the one mid-way down this page:
> http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MTYbirdsFOSP2.html demonstrate what
> [http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MTYbirds-FOSP/
> FOSP-sch19Jun01Glacer-GWLzz.jpg] montereybay.com/MTYbirdsFOSP2.html>
>
> Slate-colored Fox Sparrow - Monterey Bay montereybay.com/MTYbirdsFOSP2.html>
> creagrus.home.montereybay.com
> The Slate-colored Fox Sparrow group is a set of populations that breed in
> the interior of western North America, primarily the Rockies and isolated
> mountains in the ...
>
>
> I'm talking about.
>
> However, more recently I began noticing that essentially all photos of
> putative altivagans are from the wintering grounds, and mostly from CA or
> OR.  After a trip to Alaska, where I saw some rather dull Red Fox Sparrows,
> and especially after a trip to Central Alberta/BC I was wondering if these
> birds really are altivagans?  The birds I saw there looked very similar to
> Slate-colored, but a bit more well marked and brighter.  Granted, I was a
> bit south of the type locality, but not by a lot.  A couple of photos of
> these birds can be seen here:
> https://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33199849.  I also extensively
> recorded the Fox Sparrows in this area, and as one would expect from the
> plumage, the vocals also matched Slate-colored.
>
> The type description of altivagans also gives me some doubt that birds as
> well marked as the ones I alluded to earlier in this email are actually
> representative of the taxon, and would lead me to expect something closer
> to the Slate-colored birds that I'm more familiar with from living in CO
> and what I photographed in Jasper.  Unfortunately the type specimen is a
> juvenile bird, and also purported to be in bad shape (I haven't seen it).
> I did track down some other specimens from both north and south of the type
> locality, and they did NOT appear to be as well marked as nearly all the
> birds reported as altivagans further south, and thus closer to
> Slate-colored.  But I would also add a big caveat that I found the
> differences between Fox Sparrow groups to be less obvious in old specimens
> than in life.
>
> SO, what I would be interested in knowing is a) what do birders in the
> lower 48, especially in the west, consider an altivagans Fox Sparrow to be?
> and b) what do birders in western Alberta and E BC consider it to be?  Does
> anyone have more photos from the purported range?  Are the birds that are
> commonly reported to be altivagans actually that taxon, or are they
> intergrade Red x Slate-colored, or are those two things one and the same?
>
> I very much appreciate any light that any of you can throw on this topic,
> and look forward to hearing what you all have to say,
>
> Andrew Spencer
> Ithaca, NY
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow
From: Jason Rogers <hawkowl AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 15:35:47 +0000
Hi Andrew,

The birds in this checklist are what I consider altivagans - 
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S23038540 


Though the observer has called one a Red and the other a Slate-colored, I 
believe both are just variations of altivagans, which is the subspecies to be 
expected at that location. 


Comparing these to Red, they're darker grey above and the browns are less red. 
Head markings, mantle streaking, and wing bars are subtler. Bills are greyer. 
P. i. schistacea seems to have blacker markings below. But I'd also be 
interested in hearing from others on this. 


Jason Rogers
Calgary, AB


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Andrew Spencer  

Sent: December 26, 2016 2:43 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow

Hi all,

The recent (and very informative) discussion about the Sooty Fox Sparrow in
Newfoundland has reminded me of a topic I've been meaning to ask about
here.  Namely, what does altivagans Fox Sparrow actually look like?  My
impression of what is generally considered this form is a bird that looks
like a dull Red Fox Sparrow, quite a bit better marked than a Slate-colored
bird, but without much in the way of foxy tones.  A photo on this ebird
article:

http://ebird.org/content/nw/news/fox-sparrows-one-of-the-northwests-more-confusing-species/ 


[http://ebird.org/content/nw/wp-content/uploads/sites/61/Figure_2-520x634.jpg] 


Fox Sparrows - one of the Northwest's more confusing 
... 

ebird.org
Four groups of Fox Sparrows occur in our region; few other parts of the country 
can claim that distinction. Three breed in the region and one is a scarce 
winter visitant. 



(most of the way down the page), and the one mid-way down this page:
http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MTYbirdsFOSP2.html demonstrate what

[http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MTYbirds-FOSP/FOSP-sch19Jun01Glacer-GWLzz.jpg] 


Slate-colored Fox Sparrow - Monterey 
Bay 

creagrus.home.montereybay.com
The Slate-colored Fox Sparrow group is a set of populations that breed in the 
interior of western North America, primarily the Rockies and isolated mountains 
in the ... 



I'm talking about.

However, more recently I began noticing that essentially all photos of
putative altivagans are from the wintering grounds, and mostly from CA or
OR.  After a trip to Alaska, where I saw some rather dull Red Fox Sparrows,
and especially after a trip to Central Alberta/BC I was wondering if these
birds really are altivagans?  The birds I saw there looked very similar to
Slate-colored, but a bit more well marked and brighter.  Granted, I was a
bit south of the type locality, but not by a lot.  A couple of photos of
these birds can be seen here:
https://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33199849.  I also extensively
recorded the Fox Sparrows in this area, and as one would expect from the
plumage, the vocals also matched Slate-colored.

The type description of altivagans also gives me some doubt that birds as
well marked as the ones I alluded to earlier in this email are actually
representative of the taxon, and would lead me to expect something closer
to the Slate-colored birds that I'm more familiar with from living in CO
and what I photographed in Jasper.  Unfortunately the type specimen is a
juvenile bird, and also purported to be in bad shape (I haven't seen it).
I did track down some other specimens from both north and south of the type
locality, and they did NOT appear to be as well marked as nearly all the
birds reported as altivagans further south, and thus closer to
Slate-colored.  But I would also add a big caveat that I found the
differences between Fox Sparrow groups to be less obvious in old specimens
than in life.

SO, what I would be interested in knowing is a) what do birders in the
lower 48, especially in the west, consider an altivagans Fox Sparrow to be?
and b) what do birders in western Alberta and E BC consider it to be?  Does
anyone have more photos from the purported range?  Are the birds that are
commonly reported to be altivagans actually that taxon, or are they
intergrade Red x Slate-colored, or are those two things one and the same?

I very much appreciate any light that any of you can throw on this topic,
and look forward to hearing what you all have to say,

Andrew Spencer
Ithaca, NY

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: RFI: information on actual flap rate of Chimney vs Vaux's Swifts
From: Martin Reid <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 20:15:28 -0600
Dear All,
Can anyone provide references to articles that have analyzed the actual flap 
rate of C. pelagica and or vauxi? I have a short clip of a chaetura and I 
wonder if it is possible to assign it to a species based on a calculated flap 
rate - ? 

Thanks,
Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com 




Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Meadowlark in Hickson, Oxford County, Ontario 25 December 2016
From: Jeff Skevington <jhskevington AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 18:39:32 -0500
Hi folks,

There is a meadowlark visiting feeders here in Hickson, Ontario that we are
having trouble identifying so I would love to hear some comments on it.
Both meadowlarks are rare in winter here so the record is significant.
Western has never occurred in the county in the winter. Photos of the bird
(taken by Richard Skevington) can be viewed in my ebird checklist here:
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33193079

To my eyes, some characters support Eastern (flank colour and streaking,
dark centres to upper tail feathers) while others support Western (white
pattern on tail - 2 outer recs white, 3rd one white with black outer edge
(as in Fig 326D in Pile), narrow, pale barring on central rectrices,
overall pale colour to back, low contrast head pattern, narrow, pale brown
bars on tertials). My mind can see or not see yellow in the lores depending
on my mood:)

Thanks in advance for any help and advice,

Jeff

-- 
Jeff Skevington, Research Scientist
Canadian National Collection of Insects, Arachnids and Nematodes
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada
960 Carling Avenue, K.W. Neatby Building
Ottawa, ON, K1A 0C6, Canada
Phone: 613-720-2862
FAX: 613-759-1927
E-mail: jhskevington AT gmail.com

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: BIRDWG01 Digest - 24 Dec 2016 to 25 Dec 2016 (#2016-70)
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 20:13:56 +0000
I had a similar reaction to Steve. I would like to see wing-bars for sure on 
any eastern Fox Sparrow. 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Hampton 

Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 12:01 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] BIRDWG01 Digest - 24 Dec 2016 to 25 Dec 2016 (#2016-70) 


Alan,

These pics don't look that different from the typical Sooty Fox Sparrows found 
in most of inland California in winter (presumably sinuosa). They can show 
these gray and reddish tones in bright sunlight. The limited breast markings 
suggest a more northern form. For zaboria, I would expect a well-demarcated 
auricular patch, obvious wing bars, and a bird that basically looks like iliaca 
except the red tones are perhaps darker and browner. (I'm not aware of any 
published criteria to distinguish zaboria from iliaca, to give an idea of how 
similar they are.) 


It'd be nice to see the back to confirm.  FOSP backs tell a lot:

BACK
Red- boldly streaked gray and red (chestnut) altivagans - gray with thin 
reddish streaks Slate-colored and Thick-billed - gray, perhaps with slight 
olive/brown tinge Sooty - brown (but the most common form, sinuosa, has an ashy 
tinge) 






On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Alan Contreras 
wrote:

> We found three Fox Sparrows in one place on the Coos Bay, Oregon CBC Dec.
> 18 that we thought were probably zaboria (not annual in w Oregon as 
> far as I know), but I’ll add the pics to this discussion in case they 
> are of any use.  The birds appeared slightly more foxy in the field 
> but the color on the pics is pretty close. I thought they were more 
> gray, generally paler all over and more reddish than what I would call 
> altivagans, but this is not an easy call.
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/pnw/view/checklist/S33211225 < 
> http://ebird.org/ebird/pnw/view/checklist/S33211225>
>
>
> Alan Contreras
>
> Eugene, Oregon
> acontrer56 AT gmail.com
>
> > On Dec 25, 2016, at 10:02 PM, BIRDWG01 automatic digest system <
> LISTSERV AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > There is 1 message totaling 62 lines in this issue.
> >
> > Topics of the day:
> >
> >  1. A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> >
> > Date:    Sun, 25 Dec 2016 19:43:15 -0700
> > From:    Andrew Spencer 
> > Subject: A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The recent (and very informative) discussion about the Sooty Fox 
> > Sparrow
> in
> > Newfoundland has reminded me of a topic I've been meaning to ask 
> > about here.  Namely, what does altivagans Fox Sparrow actually look 
> > like?  My impression of what is generally considered this form is a 
> > bird that looks like a dull Red Fox Sparrow, quite a bit better 
> > marked than a
> Slate-colored
> > bird, but without much in the way of foxy tones.  A photo on this 
> > ebird
> > article:
> > http://ebird.org/content/nw/news/fox-sparrows-one-of-the-
> northwests-more-confusing-species/
> > (most of the way down the page), and the one mid-way down this page:
> > http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MTYbirdsFOSP2.html demonstrate 
> > what I'm talking about.
> >
> > However, more recently I began noticing that essentially all photos 
> > of putative altivagans are from the wintering grounds, and mostly 
> > from CA or OR.  After a trip to Alaska, where I saw some rather dull 
> > Red Fox
> Sparrows,
> > and especially after a trip to Central Alberta/BC I was wondering if
> these
> > birds really are altivagans?  The birds I saw there looked very 
> > similar
> to
> > Slate-colored, but a bit more well marked and brighter.  Granted, I 
> > was a bit south of the type locality, but not by a lot.  A couple of 
> > photos of these birds can be seen here:
> > https://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33199849.  I also 
> > extensively recorded the Fox Sparrows in this area, and as one would 
> > expect from the plumage, the vocals also matched Slate-colored.
> >
> > The type description of altivagans also gives me some doubt that 
> > birds as well marked as the ones I alluded to earlier in this email 
> > are actually representative of the taxon, and would lead me to 
> > expect something closer to the Slate-colored birds that I'm more 
> > familiar with from living in CO and what I photographed in Jasper.  
> > Unfortunately the type specimen is a juvenile bird, and also purported to 
be in bad shape (I haven't seen it). 

> > I did track down some other specimens from both north and south of 
> > the
> type
> > locality, and they did NOT appear to be as well marked as nearly all 
> > the birds reported as altivagans further south, and thus closer to 
> > Slate-colored.  But I would also add a big caveat that I found the 
> > differences between Fox Sparrow groups to be less obvious in old
> specimens
> > than in life.
> >
> > SO, what I would be interested in knowing is a) what do birders in 
> > the lower 48, especially in the west, consider an altivagans Fox 
> > Sparrow to
> be?
> > and b) what do birders in western Alberta and E BC consider it to be?
> Does
> > anyone have more photos from the purported range?  Are the birds 
> > that are commonly reported to be altivagans actually that taxon, or 
> > are they intergrade Red x Slate-colored, or are those two things one and 
the same? 

> >
> > I very much appreciate any light that any of you can throw on this 
> > topic, and look forward to hearing what you all have to say,
> >
> > Andrew Spencer
> > Ithaca, NY
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of BIRDWG01 Digest - 24 Dec 2016 to 25 Dec 2016 (#2016-70)
> > **************************************************************
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: BIRDWG01 Digest - 24 Dec 2016 to 25 Dec 2016 (#2016-70)
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 12:01:24 -0800
Alan,

These pics don't look that different from the typical Sooty Fox Sparrows
found in most of inland California in winter (presumably sinuosa).  They
can show these gray and reddish tones in bright sunlight.  The limited
breast markings suggest a more northern form.  For zaboria, I would expect
a well-demarcated auricular patch, obvious wing bars, and a bird that
basically looks like iliaca except the red tones are perhaps darker and
browner.  (I'm not aware of any published criteria to distinguish zaboria
from iliaca, to give an idea of how similar they are.)

It'd be nice to see the back to confirm.  FOSP backs tell a lot:

BACK
Red- boldly streaked gray and red (chestnut)
altivagans - gray with thin reddish streaks
Slate-colored and Thick-billed - gray, perhaps with slight olive/brown tinge
Sooty - brown (but the most common form, sinuosa, has an ashy tinge)





On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Alan Contreras 
wrote:

> We found three Fox Sparrows in one place on the Coos Bay, Oregon CBC Dec.
> 18 that we thought were probably zaboria (not annual in w Oregon as far as
> I know), but I’ll add the pics to this discussion in case they are of any
> use.  The birds appeared slightly more foxy in the field but the color on
> the pics is pretty close. I thought they were more gray, generally paler
> all over and more reddish than what I would call altivagans, but this is
> not an easy call.
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/pnw/view/checklist/S33211225 <
> http://ebird.org/ebird/pnw/view/checklist/S33211225>
>
>
> Alan Contreras
>
> Eugene, Oregon
> acontrer56 AT gmail.com
>
> > On Dec 25, 2016, at 10:02 PM, BIRDWG01 automatic digest system <
> LISTSERV AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > There is 1 message totaling 62 lines in this issue.
> >
> > Topics of the day:
> >
> >  1. A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Date:    Sun, 25 Dec 2016 19:43:15 -0700
> > From:    Andrew Spencer 
> > Subject: A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The recent (and very informative) discussion about the Sooty Fox Sparrow
> in
> > Newfoundland has reminded me of a topic I've been meaning to ask about
> > here.  Namely, what does altivagans Fox Sparrow actually look like?  My
> > impression of what is generally considered this form is a bird that looks
> > like a dull Red Fox Sparrow, quite a bit better marked than a
> Slate-colored
> > bird, but without much in the way of foxy tones.  A photo on this ebird
> > article:
> > http://ebird.org/content/nw/news/fox-sparrows-one-of-the-
> northwests-more-confusing-species/
> > (most of the way down the page), and the one mid-way down this page:
> > http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MTYbirdsFOSP2.html demonstrate what
> > I'm talking about.
> >
> > However, more recently I began noticing that essentially all photos of
> > putative altivagans are from the wintering grounds, and mostly from CA or
> > OR.  After a trip to Alaska, where I saw some rather dull Red Fox
> Sparrows,
> > and especially after a trip to Central Alberta/BC I was wondering if
> these
> > birds really are altivagans?  The birds I saw there looked very similar
> to
> > Slate-colored, but a bit more well marked and brighter.  Granted, I was a
> > bit south of the type locality, but not by a lot.  A couple of photos of
> > these birds can be seen here:
> > https://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33199849.  I also extensively
> > recorded the Fox Sparrows in this area, and as one would expect from the
> > plumage, the vocals also matched Slate-colored.
> >
> > The type description of altivagans also gives me some doubt that birds as
> > well marked as the ones I alluded to earlier in this email are actually
> > representative of the taxon, and would lead me to expect something closer
> > to the Slate-colored birds that I'm more familiar with from living in CO
> > and what I photographed in Jasper.  Unfortunately the type specimen is a
> > juvenile bird, and also purported to be in bad shape (I haven't seen it).
> > I did track down some other specimens from both north and south of the
> type
> > locality, and they did NOT appear to be as well marked as nearly all the
> > birds reported as altivagans further south, and thus closer to
> > Slate-colored.  But I would also add a big caveat that I found the
> > differences between Fox Sparrow groups to be less obvious in old
> specimens
> > than in life.
> >
> > SO, what I would be interested in knowing is a) what do birders in the
> > lower 48, especially in the west, consider an altivagans Fox Sparrow to
> be?
> > and b) what do birders in western Alberta and E BC consider it to be?
> Does
> > anyone have more photos from the purported range?  Are the birds that are
> > commonly reported to be altivagans actually that taxon, or are they
> > intergrade Red x Slate-colored, or are those two things one and the same?
> >
> > I very much appreciate any light that any of you can throw on this topic,
> > and look forward to hearing what you all have to say,
> >
> > Andrew Spencer
> > Ithaca, NY
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of BIRDWG01 Digest - 24 Dec 2016 to 25 Dec 2016 (#2016-70)
> > **************************************************************
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: BIRDWG01 Digest - 24 Dec 2016 to 25 Dec 2016 (#2016-70)
From: Alan Contreras <acontrer56 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 11:39:06 -0800
We found three Fox Sparrows in one place on the Coos Bay, Oregon CBC Dec. 18 
that we thought were probably zaboria (not annual in w Oregon as far as I 
know), but I’ll add the pics to this discussion in case they are of any use. 
The birds appeared slightly more foxy in the field but the color on the pics is 
pretty close. I thought they were more gray, generally paler all over and more 
reddish than what I would call altivagans, but this is not an easy call. 


http://ebird.org/ebird/pnw/view/checklist/S33211225 
 



Alan Contreras

Eugene, Oregon
acontrer56 AT gmail.com

> On Dec 25, 2016, at 10:02 PM, BIRDWG01 automatic digest system 
 wrote: 

> 
> There is 1 message totaling 62 lines in this issue.
> 
> Topics of the day:
> 
>  1. A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Sun, 25 Dec 2016 19:43:15 -0700
> From:    Andrew Spencer 
> Subject: A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> The recent (and very informative) discussion about the Sooty Fox Sparrow in
> Newfoundland has reminded me of a topic I've been meaning to ask about
> here.  Namely, what does altivagans Fox Sparrow actually look like?  My
> impression of what is generally considered this form is a bird that looks
> like a dull Red Fox Sparrow, quite a bit better marked than a Slate-colored
> bird, but without much in the way of foxy tones.  A photo on this ebird
> article:
> 
http://ebird.org/content/nw/news/fox-sparrows-one-of-the-northwests-more-confusing-species/ 

> (most of the way down the page), and the one mid-way down this page:
> http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MTYbirdsFOSP2.html demonstrate what
> I'm talking about.
> 
> However, more recently I began noticing that essentially all photos of
> putative altivagans are from the wintering grounds, and mostly from CA or
> OR.  After a trip to Alaska, where I saw some rather dull Red Fox Sparrows,
> and especially after a trip to Central Alberta/BC I was wondering if these
> birds really are altivagans?  The birds I saw there looked very similar to
> Slate-colored, but a bit more well marked and brighter.  Granted, I was a
> bit south of the type locality, but not by a lot.  A couple of photos of
> these birds can be seen here:
> https://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33199849.  I also extensively
> recorded the Fox Sparrows in this area, and as one would expect from the
> plumage, the vocals also matched Slate-colored.
> 
> The type description of altivagans also gives me some doubt that birds as
> well marked as the ones I alluded to earlier in this email are actually
> representative of the taxon, and would lead me to expect something closer
> to the Slate-colored birds that I'm more familiar with from living in CO
> and what I photographed in Jasper.  Unfortunately the type specimen is a
> juvenile bird, and also purported to be in bad shape (I haven't seen it).
> I did track down some other specimens from both north and south of the type
> locality, and they did NOT appear to be as well marked as nearly all the
> birds reported as altivagans further south, and thus closer to
> Slate-colored.  But I would also add a big caveat that I found the
> differences between Fox Sparrow groups to be less obvious in old specimens
> than in life.
> 
> SO, what I would be interested in knowing is a) what do birders in the
> lower 48, especially in the west, consider an altivagans Fox Sparrow to be?
> and b) what do birders in western Alberta and E BC consider it to be?  Does
> anyone have more photos from the purported range?  Are the birds that are
> commonly reported to be altivagans actually that taxon, or are they
> intergrade Red x Slate-colored, or are those two things one and the same?
> 
> I very much appreciate any light that any of you can throw on this topic,
> and look forward to hearing what you all have to say,
> 
> Andrew Spencer
> Ithaca, NY
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of BIRDWG01 Digest - 24 Dec 2016 to 25 Dec 2016 (#2016-70)
> **************************************************************


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2016 08:05:10 -0800
Andrew,

You've hit on some major issues.  First, I think birders don't really know
what altivagans is (and for various reason, are confused about many Fox
Sparrow forms), and two, as you've discovered, there is a massive lack of
photos from the breeding grounds for many of the forms.  So we are left
speculating.

I can tell you that in the Central Valley of California, altivagans is the
second-most common form, but a distant second after Sooty, making up maybe
1% of all birds.  Most birders call them Slate-colored, some call them Red,
and Sibley's 2nd edition calls them Red x Slate-colored.  Various other
authors list them SC or Red.  Early DNA work says they are Slate-colored--
but the fact is they do look like a mix of the two and they show the
variability we would expect of an intergrade population.

In my experience, they tend to show nearly solid gray heads and backs, but
the back is lightly streaked with red (not the thick streaks of Red).  They
usually show wingbars, making altivagans and Red the only Fox Sparrows with
wingbars (but beware a large intergrade zone between zaboria Red and
sinuosa Sooty in s-central Alaska).

We've amassed quite a collection of Fox Sparrow pics here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/447117322159681/

Here are two very different birds that each may be altivagans:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153437741771966&set=gm.476992415838838&type=3&theater 


Obviously, we need more summer photos from Alberta!

I have doubts about both the photos referenced.  The first photo (most of
the way down the page at http://ebird.org/content/nw/
news/fox-sparrows-one-of-the-northwests-more-confusing-species/) has a very
well-defined auricular patch, broad streaks on the back, and heavy chevrons
on the underparts.  It seems fine for zaboria Red to me.

The second photo (mid-way down the page at
http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MTYbirdsFOSP2.html) lacks wingbars,
has an extensive brown crown and apparent brown back, and otherwise seems
fine for Sooty to me.  The wide gray supercilium and contrasting reddish
tail are typical of Sootys in inland Calif in winter (and are likely
sinuosa, the most common northern form).



On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Andrew Spencer  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> The recent (and very informative) discussion about the Sooty Fox Sparrow in
> Newfoundland has reminded me of a topic I've been meaning to ask about
> here.  Namely, what does altivagans Fox Sparrow actually look like?  My
> impression of what is generally considered this form is a bird that looks
> like a dull Red Fox Sparrow, quite a bit better marked than a Slate-colored
> bird, but without much in the way of foxy tones.  A photo on this ebird
> article:
> http://ebird.org/content/nw/news/fox-sparrows-one-of-the-
> northwests-more-confusing-species/
> (most of the way down the page), and the one mid-way down this page:
> http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MTYbirdsFOSP2.html demonstrate what
> I'm talking about.
>
> However, more recently I began noticing that essentially all photos of
> putative altivagans are from the wintering grounds, and mostly from CA or
> OR.  After a trip to Alaska, where I saw some rather dull Red Fox Sparrows,
> and especially after a trip to Central Alberta/BC I was wondering if these
> birds really are altivagans?  The birds I saw there looked very similar to
> Slate-colored, but a bit more well marked and brighter.  Granted, I was a
> bit south of the type locality, but not by a lot.  A couple of photos of
> these birds can be seen here:
> https://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33199849.  I also extensively
> recorded the Fox Sparrows in this area, and as one would expect from the
> plumage, the vocals also matched Slate-colored.
>
> The type description of altivagans also gives me some doubt that birds as
> well marked as the ones I alluded to earlier in this email are actually
> representative of the taxon, and would lead me to expect something closer
> to the Slate-colored birds that I'm more familiar with from living in CO
> and what I photographed in Jasper.  Unfortunately the type specimen is a
> juvenile bird, and also purported to be in bad shape (I haven't seen it).
> I did track down some other specimens from both north and south of the type
> locality, and they did NOT appear to be as well marked as nearly all the
> birds reported as altivagans further south, and thus closer to
> Slate-colored.  But I would also add a big caveat that I found the
> differences between Fox Sparrow groups to be less obvious in old specimens
> than in life.
>
> SO, what I would be interested in knowing is a) what do birders in the
> lower 48, especially in the west, consider an altivagans Fox Sparrow to be?
> and b) what do birders in western Alberta and E BC consider it to be?  Does
> anyone have more photos from the purported range?  Are the birds that are
> commonly reported to be altivagans actually that taxon, or are they
> intergrade Red x Slate-colored, or are those two things one and the same?
>
> I very much appreciate any light that any of you can throw on this topic,
> and look forward to hearing what you all have to say,
>
> Andrew Spencer
> Ithaca, NY
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: A question about altivagans Fox Sparrow
From: Andrew Spencer <gwwarbler AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2016 19:43:15 -0700
Hi all,

The recent (and very informative) discussion about the Sooty Fox Sparrow in
Newfoundland has reminded me of a topic I've been meaning to ask about
here.  Namely, what does altivagans Fox Sparrow actually look like?  My
impression of what is generally considered this form is a bird that looks
like a dull Red Fox Sparrow, quite a bit better marked than a Slate-colored
bird, but without much in the way of foxy tones.  A photo on this ebird
article:

http://ebird.org/content/nw/news/fox-sparrows-one-of-the-northwests-more-confusing-species/ 

(most of the way down the page), and the one mid-way down this page:
http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MTYbirdsFOSP2.html demonstrate what
I'm talking about.

However, more recently I began noticing that essentially all photos of
putative altivagans are from the wintering grounds, and mostly from CA or
OR.  After a trip to Alaska, where I saw some rather dull Red Fox Sparrows,
and especially after a trip to Central Alberta/BC I was wondering if these
birds really are altivagans?  The birds I saw there looked very similar to
Slate-colored, but a bit more well marked and brighter.  Granted, I was a
bit south of the type locality, but not by a lot.  A couple of photos of
these birds can be seen here:
https://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33199849.  I also extensively
recorded the Fox Sparrows in this area, and as one would expect from the
plumage, the vocals also matched Slate-colored.

The type description of altivagans also gives me some doubt that birds as
well marked as the ones I alluded to earlier in this email are actually
representative of the taxon, and would lead me to expect something closer
to the Slate-colored birds that I'm more familiar with from living in CO
and what I photographed in Jasper.  Unfortunately the type specimen is a
juvenile bird, and also purported to be in bad shape (I haven't seen it).
I did track down some other specimens from both north and south of the type
locality, and they did NOT appear to be as well marked as nearly all the
birds reported as altivagans further south, and thus closer to
Slate-colored.  But I would also add a big caveat that I found the
differences between Fox Sparrow groups to be less obvious in old specimens
than in life.

SO, what I would be interested in knowing is a) what do birders in the
lower 48, especially in the west, consider an altivagans Fox Sparrow to be?
and b) what do birders in western Alberta and E BC consider it to be?  Does
anyone have more photos from the purported range?  Are the birds that are
commonly reported to be altivagans actually that taxon, or are they
intergrade Red x Slate-colored, or are those two things one and the same?

I very much appreciate any light that any of you can throw on this topic,
and look forward to hearing what you all have to say,

Andrew Spencer
Ithaca, NY

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Catharus Question
From: Bates Estabrooks <wgpu AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 20:32:52 +0000
Tony,

Thank you for the very helpful details.

Bates

Get Outlook for Android



On Sat, Dec 24, 2016 at 3:30 PM -0500, "Tony Leukering" 
> wrote: 


Bates et al.:

I'd go with Hermit on quite a few points:

1) The pale supraloral stripe is not connected to the eye ring, at least in the 
good profile shot. Yes, the connection is often nebulous in Swainson's, but 
that species rarely shows it so completely disconnected as on the good profile 
shot. 


2) The lateral throat stripes look black to me, rather than medium or dark 
brown (as in Swainson's). 


3) The primary covers appear substantially orangey-rufous, much more so than 
even the rustiest Olive-backed Swainson's, and much more so than typical 
Olive-backeds. 


4) Though mostly subjective, the bird looks fairly small to me. Olive-backed 
Swainson's are considerably larger than Eastern/Northern Hermits, to me looking 
long and lanky, rather than squat and more pot-bellied as on your bird. 


As on adult non-Harlan's Red-tailed Hawks, the color of the tail is not 
accurately assessed from below. Rather, the color of the tail of Hermit Thrush 
from below can appear quite a bit paler, less orangey than does it does from 
above. Finally, the bird can easily be aged as a first-year bird by the large 
buffy shaft streaks on the outer greater coverts. 


That's my two-cents' worth.

Tony

Tony Leukering
Largo, FL
http://cowyebird.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
http://aba.org/photoquiz/


-----Original Message-----
From: Bates Estabrooks 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Sat, Dec 24, 2016 2:14 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Catharus Question

________________________________

Greetings.


I photo'd a Catharus thrush in my backyard yesterday, near Knoxville, TN. (Link 
to pics., below.) and need some ID help. 



By date and location, this should reasonably only be a Hermit Thrush (though 
there are several eBird winter records of non-Hermits in NA), but it strikes me 
as a possible Swainson's 



I asked for ID help on a Facebook page and the few responses I received were to 
state definitively that this was a Hermit Thrush; this conclusion, solely on 
the basis of season and location and because the bird has a hint of rufous in 
the wing feathers. 



What argues, in my uneducated opinion, for Swainson's is: the lack of any 
evidence for rufous in the tail/rump (bad angle acknowledged); the not-so-bold 
breast spotting; and the expansive eye ring with what, to me, appear to be 
light-colored lores. Regarding eye ring/lores, BNA notes: 



"Swainson's best distinguished from all other North American Catharus thrushes 
by presence of buffy eye-ring and lores (eye-ring less distinct and dull 
whitish or largely absent in other Catharus thrushes)." 




In any case, I would like to be ID educated (with details, please).


Thanks very much.


Bates Estabrooks

Tennessee



http://s1132.photobucket.com/user/estabrooks1/library/Catharus?sort=3&page=1






Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Catharus Question
From: Bates Estabrooks <wgpu AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 19:45:57 +0000
Kevin,


Thanks for the quick, helpful, response.  Very informative.


Bates


________________________________
From: Kevin J. McGowan 
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2016 2:43 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU; Bates Estabrooks
Subject: Re: Mystery Catharus Question


Bates,


I'd call that a normal Hermit Thrush. At least in the East, Hermits and 
Swainson's can look very similar, but they differ slightly in the appearance of 
the face. Both typically show distinct eyerings. Swainson's is often buffy, and 
always shows a buffy line forward of the eye (it's not quite the lores to me) 
that extends the eyering into vague spectacles. This buffy line forward is 
almost always (in the East) matched by a buffy malar zone that extends up to 
nearly reach the upper line. The result is that Swainson's has a buffy face. 
The buffy malar is usually bounded forward and down by a dark line that is 
usually rather indistinct. 



A Hermit Thrush's face has a distinct whitish eyering that does not blend 
forward with pale lores, and any loral line is not buffy and is not met by a 
buffy malar. The pale malar is usually whitish and set off by a distinct dark 
line forward and down. 



So, for me, Swainson's Thrush has spectacles and a buffy face, without distinct 
or sharp elements. Hermit Thrush is more brown and white, with distinct 
elements of small whitish eyering and dark malar streak. 



Best,


Kevin



Kevin J. McGowan
Ithaca, NY 14850
kjm2 AT cornell.edu
607-254-2452


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Bates Estabrooks  

Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2016 2:04 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Catharus Question

________________________________

Greetings.


I photo'd a Catharus thrush in my backyard yesterday, near Knoxville, TN. (Link 
to pics., below.) and need some ID help. 



By date and location, this should reasonably only be a Hermit Thrush (though 
there are several eBird winter records of non-Hermits in NA), but it strikes me 
as a possible Swainson's 



I asked for ID help on a Facebook page and the few responses I received were to 
state definitively that this was a Hermit Thrush; this conclusion, solely on 
the basis of season and location and because the bird has a hint of rufous in 
the wing feathers. 



What argues, in my uneducated opinion, for Swainson's is: the lack of any 
evidence for rufous in the tail/rump (bad angle acknowledged); the not-so-bold 
breast spotting; and the expansive eye ring with what, to me, appear to be 
light-colored lores. Regarding eye ring/lores, BNA notes: 



"Swainson's best distinguished from all other North American Catharus thrushes 
by presence of buffy eye-ring and lores (eye-ring less distinct and dull 
whitish or largely absent in other Catharus thrushes)." 




In any case, I would like to be ID educated (with details, please).


Thanks very much.


Bates Estabrooks

Tennessee



http://s1132.photobucket.com/user/estabrooks1/library/Catharus?sort=3&page=1

[http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m566/estabrooks1/Catharus/story/thumbnail.jpg] 


Catharus by 
estabrooks1 

s1132.photobucket.com
View the full album on Photobucket.








Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Catharus Question
From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2 AT CORNELL.EDU>
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 19:43:34 +0000
Bates,


I'd call that a normal Hermit Thrush. At least in the East, Hermits and 
Swainson's can look very similar, but they differ slightly in the appearance of 
the face. Both typically show distinct eyerings. Swainson's is often buffy, and 
always shows a buffy line forward of the eye (it's not quite the lores to me) 
that extends the eyering into vague spectacles. This buffy line forward is 
almost always (in the East) matched by a buffy malar zone that extends up to 
nearly reach the upper line. The result is that Swainson's has a buffy face. 
The buffy malar is usually bounded forward and down by a dark line that is 
usually rather indistinct. 



A Hermit Thrush's face has a distinct whitish eyering that does not blend 
forward with pale lores, and any loral line is not buffy and is not met by a 
buffy malar. The pale malar is usually whitish and set off by a distinct dark 
line forward and down. 



So, for me, Swainson's Thrush has spectacles and a buffy face, without distinct 
or sharp elements. Hermit Thrush is more brown and white, with distinct 
elements of small whitish eyering and dark malar streak. 



Best,


Kevin



Kevin J. McGowan
Ithaca, NY 14850
kjm2 AT cornell.edu
607-254-2452


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Bates Estabrooks  

Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2016 2:04 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Catharus Question

________________________________

Greetings.


I photo'd a Catharus thrush in my backyard yesterday, near Knoxville, TN. (Link 
to pics., below.) and need some ID help. 



By date and location, this should reasonably only be a Hermit Thrush (though 
there are several eBird winter records of non-Hermits in NA), but it strikes me 
as a possible Swainson's 



I asked for ID help on a Facebook page and the few responses I received were to 
state definitively that this was a Hermit Thrush; this conclusion, solely on 
the basis of season and location and because the bird has a hint of rufous in 
the wing feathers. 



What argues, in my uneducated opinion, for Swainson's is: the lack of any 
evidence for rufous in the tail/rump (bad angle acknowledged); the not-so-bold 
breast spotting; and the expansive eye ring with what, to me, appear to be 
light-colored lores. Regarding eye ring/lores, BNA notes: 



"Swainson's best distinguished from all other North American Catharus thrushes 
by presence of buffy eye-ring and lores (eye-ring less distinct and dull 
whitish or largely absent in other Catharus thrushes)." 




In any case, I would like to be ID educated (with details, please).


Thanks very much.


Bates Estabrooks

Tennessee



http://s1132.photobucket.com/user/estabrooks1/library/Catharus?sort=3&page=1

[http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m566/estabrooks1/Catharus/story/thumbnail.jpg] 


Catharus by 
estabrooks1 

s1132.photobucket.com
View the full album on Photobucket.








Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Mystery Catharus Question
From: Bates Estabrooks <wgpu AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2016 19:04:22 +0000
________________________________

Greetings.


I photo'd a Catharus thrush in my backyard yesterday, near Knoxville, TN. (Link 
to pics., below.) and need some ID help. 



By date and location, this should reasonably only be a Hermit Thrush (though 
there are several eBird winter records of non-Hermits in NA), but it strikes me 
as a possible Swainson's 



I asked for ID help on a Facebook page and the few responses I received were to 
state definitively that this was a Hermit Thrush; this conclusion, solely on 
the basis of season and location and because the bird has a hint of rufous in 
the wing feathers. 



What argues, in my uneducated opinion, for Swainson's is: the lack of any 
evidence for rufous in the tail/rump (bad angle acknowledged); the not-so-bold 
breast spotting; and the expansive eye ring with what, to me, appear to be 
light-colored lores. Regarding eye ring/lores, BNA notes: 



"Swainson's best distinguished from all other North American Catharus thrushes 
by presence of buffy eye-ring and lores (eye-ring less distinct and dull 
whitish or largely absent in other Catharus thrushes)." 




In any case, I would like to be ID educated (with details, please).


Thanks very much.


Bates Estabrooks

Tennessee



http://s1132.photobucket.com/user/estabrooks1/library/Catharus?sort=3&page=1






Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland
From: Jason Rogers <hawkowl AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 18:57:15 +0000
Nice find! But I agree that this is a Sooty. The Fox Sparrows we get here in 
western Alberta (altivagans, schistacea, and intergrades) are greyer above than 
this with a more streaked brown (rather than solid brown) mantle and quite a 
bit less brown on the head. They also have greyish bills and many have some 
white or buff tips on the wing coverts and tertials. 



Jason Rogers

Calgary, AB



________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Bruce Mactavish 
 

Sent: December 23, 2016 11:23 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland

A western Fox Sparrow has shown up at Dave Shepherd's bird feeder in
southeast most corner of Newfoundland at Portugal Cove South, Avalon
Peninsula. It is obviously one of the western races of Fox Sparrow.  With
limited reference material I think it is the Slate-coloured Fox Sparrow.
Depending on the light it can look more like a Sooty Fox Sparrow. The
undertones of reddish in the plumage come out better in strong light. In
shade the bird looks all chocolate brown.  The photos can be seen on this
blog. I would be interested to hear others who have experience with western
Fox Sparrows have to say about subspecies designation of this bird.



http://brucemactavish1.blogspot.ca/

[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TzzxafBzFmw/WDtE5MWaE5I/AAAAAAAAE1I/0sb9hXlvIngMWG3CmJxKKkGGgggLmI1swCK4B/s1600/Cover-Blog-SBGU-use-this-labeled.jpg] 


The Bruce Mactavish Newfoundland Birding 
Blog 

brucemactavish1.blogspot.ca
The bird had a good side but even here the somewhat disheveled look of the bird 
was apparent. I was not enjoying this experience. I was glad to see an adult 
Ivory ... 






Bruce Mactavish

St. John's, Newfoundland


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 17:34:34 +0000
Steve, 

As a fellow student of western Fox Sparrow taxa I appreciate the depth of your 
comments and agree with them wholeheartedly. Light issues and the subspecific 
variability as they pertain to how reddish a Sooty Fox Sparrow can look is 
wholly under appreciated by mist birders. The more interior forms of Sooty can 
look 

quite russet in certain light conditions.

Dave Irons
Beaverton, OR

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 23, 2016, at 8:26 AM, Steve Hampton  wrote:
> 
> I concur with Alvaro.  Definitely Sooty.  More on subspecies of Sooty
> below.
> 
> First and foremost, I want to emphasize that many field guides are with Fox
> Sparrows where they used to be with gulls-- inaccurate and misleading.  ALL
> forms of Sooty show varying degrees of gray in the face (usually a wide
> supercilium behind the eye and, in the northern forms, a contrasting gray
> nape) and contrasting reddish tones in the tail and upper tail coverts (in
> sunlight only).  The gray is generally more contrasting and extensive in
> the northern forms (unalaschensis, insularis, and sinuosa).  The
> dipped-in-chocolate stereotype perpetuated by field guides applies only to
> fuliginosa (the southernmost form-- with an extremely limited range,
> limited in the US to just the outer coast from Neah Bay to Kalaloch)-- but
> even fuliginosa shows gray in the face and reddish in the tail in good
> light.
> 
> You are correct in noticing the dramatic change in appearance (especially
> the gray and red tones) from sunlight to shadow.
> 
> This bird strikes me as townsendi based on the overall darkness, small
> bill, and short tail (SE Alaska in summer south to Humboldt Bay, CA in
> winter).  However, based on the contrasting gray in the nape and limited
> breast markings (for a Sooty-- but still heavy compared to other Fox
> Sparrows), it is probably a sinuosa (I daresay a female, which run 10-15%
> smaller).  Sinuosa ranges from Kenai Pen. and PW Sound south to most of
> California and probably account for 50% of all Sooties by population; in
> Calif, they are more likely inland than coastal.
> 
> Slate-colored would have a nearly solid gray head (and a paler gray than
> this bird), a gray back (perhaps with some brown tones), smaller and
> limited chevrons below (as described by Alvaro), and a strikingly longer
> tail.
> 
> Altivagans (considered Slate-colored, Red, or a mix of the two) would have
> a gray back lightly streaked with red tones, a lot more gray in the head
> and rump, and small wingbars (like Red).
> 
> The best source for Fox Sparrows remains Swarth (1920) available on-line.
> I've attempted to bring it to light with contemporary photos in a recent
> paper for the Central Valley Bird Club Bulletin.  That's at
> http://www.cvbirds.org/bulletin/ but the paper is not up yet.
> 
> I also recommend the Fox Sparrows Facebook group:
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/447117322159681/
> to see lots of photos.
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 6:58 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo 
> wrote:
> 
>> Bruce,
>>   That is a Sooty Fox Sparrow. They are variable in their look as that
>> group includes several subspecies which blend into each other, varying in
>> how dark they are and  how much gray they show on face/upperparts. Key,
>> apart from the generally dark appearance is how densely streaked the
>> underparts are, with a generally brown tone to the streaks. Slate-colored
>> is
>> more sparsely streaked, and the streaks are more blackish-brown, looking
>> darker than the upperpart color. From the back Slate-colored has a distinct
>> shift from the more reddish-brown wings to the grayer back, Sooty looks
>> more
>> unicolored from that view as your photos show. Pretty amazing record! Say
>> hello to Dave.
>> Alvaro
>> 
>> Alvaro Jaramillo
>> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
>> www.alvarosadventures.com
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Bruce Mactavish
>> Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 3:23 AM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland
>> 
>> A western Fox Sparrow has shown up at Dave Shepherd's bird feeder in
>> southeast most corner of Newfoundland at Portugal Cove South, Avalon
>> Peninsula. It is obviously one of the western races of Fox Sparrow.  With
>> limited reference material I think it is the Slate-coloured Fox Sparrow.
>> Depending on the light it can look more like a Sooty Fox Sparrow. The
>> undertones of reddish in the plumage come out better in strong light. In
>> shade the bird looks all chocolate brown.  The photos can be seen on this
>> blog. I would be interested to hear others who have experience with western
>> Fox Sparrows have to say about subspecies designation of this bird.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> http://brucemactavish1.blogspot.ca/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Bruce Mactavish
>> 
>> St. John's, Newfoundland
>> 
>> 
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> 
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 08:26:24 -0800
I concur with Alvaro.  Definitely Sooty.  More on subspecies of Sooty
below.

First and foremost, I want to emphasize that many field guides are with Fox
Sparrows where they used to be with gulls-- inaccurate and misleading.  ALL
forms of Sooty show varying degrees of gray in the face (usually a wide
supercilium behind the eye and, in the northern forms, a contrasting gray
nape) and contrasting reddish tones in the tail and upper tail coverts (in
sunlight only).  The gray is generally more contrasting and extensive in
the northern forms (unalaschensis, insularis, and sinuosa).  The
dipped-in-chocolate stereotype perpetuated by field guides applies only to
fuliginosa (the southernmost form-- with an extremely limited range,
limited in the US to just the outer coast from Neah Bay to Kalaloch)-- but
even fuliginosa shows gray in the face and reddish in the tail in good
light.

You are correct in noticing the dramatic change in appearance (especially
the gray and red tones) from sunlight to shadow.

This bird strikes me as townsendi based on the overall darkness, small
bill, and short tail (SE Alaska in summer south to Humboldt Bay, CA in
winter).  However, based on the contrasting gray in the nape and limited
breast markings (for a Sooty-- but still heavy compared to other Fox
Sparrows), it is probably a sinuosa (I daresay a female, which run 10-15%
smaller).  Sinuosa ranges from Kenai Pen. and PW Sound south to most of
California and probably account for 50% of all Sooties by population; in
Calif, they are more likely inland than coastal.

Slate-colored would have a nearly solid gray head (and a paler gray than
this bird), a gray back (perhaps with some brown tones), smaller and
limited chevrons below (as described by Alvaro), and a strikingly longer
tail.

Altivagans (considered Slate-colored, Red, or a mix of the two) would have
a gray back lightly streaked with red tones, a lot more gray in the head
and rump, and small wingbars (like Red).

The best source for Fox Sparrows remains Swarth (1920) available on-line.
I've attempted to bring it to light with contemporary photos in a recent
paper for the Central Valley Bird Club Bulletin.  That's at
http://www.cvbirds.org/bulletin/ but the paper is not up yet.

I also recommend the Fox Sparrows Facebook group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/447117322159681/
to see lots of photos.



On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 6:58 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo 
wrote:

> Bruce,
>    That is a Sooty Fox Sparrow. They are variable in their look as that
> group includes several subspecies which blend into each other, varying in
> how dark they are and  how much gray they show on face/upperparts. Key,
> apart from the generally dark appearance is how densely streaked the
> underparts are, with a generally brown tone to the streaks. Slate-colored
> is
> more sparsely streaked, and the streaks are more blackish-brown, looking
> darker than the upperpart color. From the back Slate-colored has a distinct
> shift from the more reddish-brown wings to the grayer back, Sooty looks
> more
> unicolored from that view as your photos show. Pretty amazing record! Say
> hello to Dave.
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Bruce Mactavish
> Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 3:23 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland
>
> A western Fox Sparrow has shown up at Dave Shepherd's bird feeder in
> southeast most corner of Newfoundland at Portugal Cove South, Avalon
> Peninsula. It is obviously one of the western races of Fox Sparrow.  With
> limited reference material I think it is the Slate-coloured Fox Sparrow.
> Depending on the light it can look more like a Sooty Fox Sparrow. The
> undertones of reddish in the plumage come out better in strong light. In
> shade the bird looks all chocolate brown.  The photos can be seen on this
> blog. I would be interested to hear others who have experience with western
> Fox Sparrows have to say about subspecies designation of this bird.
>
>
>
> http://brucemactavish1.blogspot.ca/
>
>
>
> Bruce Mactavish
>
> St. John's, Newfoundland
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 16:02:56 +0000
I agree completely with Alvaro's take on this bird. I would add the almost 
solidly dark flanks are another good indicator of Sooty Fox Sparrow, with other 
subspecies groups showing more light dominant flanks with heavy dark streaking. 


Dave Irons
Beaverton, OR

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 23, 2016, at 7:00 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo  wrote:
> 
> Bruce, 
>   That is a Sooty Fox Sparrow. They are variable in their look as that
> group includes several subspecies which blend into each other, varying in
> how dark they are and  how much gray they show on face/upperparts. Key,
> apart from the generally dark appearance is how densely streaked the
> underparts are, with a generally brown tone to the streaks. Slate-colored is
> more sparsely streaked, and the streaks are more blackish-brown, looking
> darker than the upperpart color. From the back Slate-colored has a distinct
> shift from the more reddish-brown wings to the grayer back, Sooty looks more
> unicolored from that view as your photos show. Pretty amazing record! Say
> hello to Dave. 
> Alvaro 
> 
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Bruce Mactavish
> Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 3:23 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland
> 
> A western Fox Sparrow has shown up at Dave Shepherd's bird feeder in
> southeast most corner of Newfoundland at Portugal Cove South, Avalon
> Peninsula. It is obviously one of the western races of Fox Sparrow.  With
> limited reference material I think it is the Slate-coloured Fox Sparrow.
> Depending on the light it can look more like a Sooty Fox Sparrow. The
> undertones of reddish in the plumage come out better in strong light. In
> shade the bird looks all chocolate brown.  The photos can be seen on this
> blog. I would be interested to hear others who have experience with western
> Fox Sparrows have to say about subspecies designation of this bird.
> 
> 
> 
> http://brucemactavish1.blogspot.ca/ 
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce Mactavish
> 
> St. John's, Newfoundland
> 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 06:58:48 -0800
Bruce, 
   That is a Sooty Fox Sparrow. They are variable in their look as that
group includes several subspecies which blend into each other, varying in
how dark they are and  how much gray they show on face/upperparts. Key,
apart from the generally dark appearance is how densely streaked the
underparts are, with a generally brown tone to the streaks. Slate-colored is
more sparsely streaked, and the streaks are more blackish-brown, looking
darker than the upperpart color. From the back Slate-colored has a distinct
shift from the more reddish-brown wings to the grayer back, Sooty looks more
unicolored from that view as your photos show. Pretty amazing record! Say
hello to Dave. 
Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Bruce Mactavish
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 3:23 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland

A western Fox Sparrow has shown up at Dave Shepherd's bird feeder in
southeast most corner of Newfoundland at Portugal Cove South, Avalon
Peninsula. It is obviously one of the western races of Fox Sparrow.  With
limited reference material I think it is the Slate-coloured Fox Sparrow.
Depending on the light it can look more like a Sooty Fox Sparrow. The
undertones of reddish in the plumage come out better in strong light. In
shade the bird looks all chocolate brown.  The photos can be seen on this
blog. I would be interested to hear others who have experience with western
Fox Sparrows have to say about subspecies designation of this bird.

 

http://brucemactavish1.blogspot.ca/ 

 

Bruce Mactavish

St. John's, Newfoundland


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: western Fox Sparrow in Newfoundland
From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1 AT NF.SYMPATICO.CA>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 07:53:29 -0330
A western Fox Sparrow has shown up at Dave Shepherd's bird feeder in
southeast most corner of Newfoundland at Portugal Cove South, Avalon
Peninsula. It is obviously one of the western races of Fox Sparrow.  With
limited reference material I think it is the Slate-coloured Fox Sparrow.
Depending on the light it can look more like a Sooty Fox Sparrow. The
undertones of reddish in the plumage come out better in strong light. In
shade the bird looks all chocolate brown.  The photos can be seen on this
blog. I would be interested to hear others who have experience with western
Fox Sparrows have to say about subspecies designation of this bird.

 

http://brucemactavish1.blogspot.ca/ 

 

Bruce Mactavish

St. John's, Newfoundland


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Mystery warbler in Ohio, USA
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd57 AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:11:19 +0000
Hey, everybody.

Here's a link to a warbler in Ohio, USA, that has generated a fair bit of 
discussion: 


tinyurl.com/Dec-16-Birding-quiz

Well, we're pretty sure it's a warbler, genus Setophaga. But Pechora Pipit has 
also entered into consideration... :-) 


Ted Floyd
Lafayette, Boulder County, Colorado, USA


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Long-tailed Duck (LTDU) Summary
From: Matthew G Hunter <matthewghunter AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 21:44:33 -0800
Hi Folks,
  I received a number of interesting replies to my query of December 19
regarding the bird in my eBird checklist (http://ebird.org/ebird/view/
checklist/S33067367). Thanks to Wayne Hoffman, Alvaro Jaramillo, Killian
Mullarney, and Jerry Jourdan. I'd like to share with you what I've put
together for my own thinking on ageing and sexing of  fairly dull-plumaged
LTDUs without an obvious pale bill band in early to mid-winter. I'm only
considering the more obvious features visible under common field
conditions, not birds in hand or crippling views, etc.

1. Adult basic females will have some fairly distinct to very distinct
colorful edges to the scapulars (especially) and wing coverts; often a nice
chestnut or cinnamon color, making a rather attractive checkered pattern.
Bill is bluish lead gray.

2. First-winter birds of either sex may vary tremendously in their timing
and extent of preformative molt, from being still in all or nearly all
juvenile plumage to being quite advanced, both in plumage and bill pattern.

2a. Juvenile birds (compared to basic adult female) have relatively plain
scaps and wing coverts, sometimes paler edges from wear, but not with
clearly bicolored feathers. Most birds in full juvenile plumage are
probably not sexable (?), except if a male has some notable brownish/pale
to the bill or a patch appearing on the bill.

2b. Juveniles showing preformative molt are much more likely to be sexable.
If new feathers coming in on the scaps are strongly white (such as the one
scap on either side on my bird), then the bird is most probably a male.
This combined with a somewhat dusky or brownish colored bill, versus lead
gray of female, would further indicate male (and of course a notable pale
band would make any bird a male). If new feathers coming in on the scaps
are just medium grayish or more dull, and the bill appears just gray (vs
somewhat brownish or pale), then it is likely a female.

So, that's my current working draft of notes on sexing dull winter
LTDUs....  Feel free to correct/add/subtract/clarify anything....   My bird
has mostly juv scaps and coverts, one very white scap coming in, and a
somewhat brownish bill, all of which point to a first-winter male just
beginning preformative molt.

Jerry Jourdan shared with me his blog that has a fantastic series of photos
of LTDUs in various plumages, with some of his comments and questions.
Jerry invites more comments/input, and I highly recommend you take a look
if interested in this topic.

http://jerryjourdan.blogspot.com/2013/02/ageing-long-tailed-
ducks-27-jan-2013.html

http://jerryjourdan.blogspot.com/2014/02/evidence-of-pre-alt
ernate-molt-in-long.html

I'm also told of someone who is currently working on LTDU molts and
plumages, with some interesting findings, ... to be published hopefully in
the next year or two. Looking forward to that.  :-)

Matt Hunter
Umpqua River Basin
SW Oregon

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Sexing a Long-tailed Duck
From: Matthew G Hunter <matthewghunter AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 11:45:56 -0800
Hi Folks,
  Seeing Long-tailed Ducks only on occasion doesn't give me enough
experience to decide on the sex of this bird.  My main references for this
effort (Reeber's Waterfowl and Pyle's Part 2), are excellent, but I'm still
uncertain. I'm not sure which features to give greater weight to. I'd
appreciate some feedback.

Photos included in this checklist:
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S33067367

Summarizing my thoughts:

Bill--I don't see any hint of distal pale patch, but bill overall seems
somewhat light, and perhaps the pale patch will show up in the next couple
months, if it were a male?

Scaps--Feather shape seems like those illustrated in Pyle2 for
formative/basic female, except there is one very light gray/whitish feather
which seems more expected for male, but the shape is not long, ....?

Can't see tail feathers.

Head plumage--I was leaning toward female due to dark extending down back
of head and neck, but the dark doesn't reach bill either, and all this head
plumage seems so variable, so I don't have anything solid there, but maybe
there are certain features of the head that are more helpful???

Your input appreciated.  Thank-you.

Matt Hunter
Melrose, OR
541-670-1984

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Chuck Otte <cotte AT KSU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 14:48:34 +0000
Just to add more fodder to the challenges of abnormal sapsucker ID - there was 
an interesting paper in North American Birds, Volume 59 (2005), Number 2, pages 
360 - 363 by Robbins, Seibel and Cicero that addressed some of the issues. It 
was based on a sapsucker that was seen in eastern Kansas in December 2001 that 
was first identified as a possible adult male Red-naped Sapsucker but later 
collected and shown to be an adult female and a probable hybrid Yellow-bellied 
x Red-breasted. It's a good article with a lot of discussion of field 
identification of adult sapsuckers. 



Chuck


Chuck Otte      cotte AT ksu.edu

County Extension Agent, Ag & Natural Resources

Geary County Extension Office, PO BOX 28 785-238-4161

Junction City, Kansas 66441-0028 FAX 785-238-7166

http://www.geary.ksu.edu/

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 14:43:33 +0000
Louis and others.

Has any work been done to establish the % of YB Sapsuckers that show "field 
visible" red in nape in the Eastern part of the range? 


Regards, Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Louis Bevier 

Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 5:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker

Regarding the presence of red in the nape of Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, I would 
echo what Kevin McGowan has shown with photos of living birds and what Matt 
Brady has pointed out with dead ones, that red in the nape occurs in breeding 
varius well east of the contact zone. This was pointed out at least as early as 
the 1950s by Earl Godfrey, who cited a specimen with a red nape from Megantic, 
Quebec, only 10s of miles from Maine. Tom Howell in 1952, quoting Godfrey, said 
that this individual showed more red in the nape than several examples of 
varius similarly “tainted" west to Alberta. Pierre Devillers picked up on 
this too, cautioning in 1970 that red in the nape cannot be relied upon for 
identification or signs of hybridization, although he did say that as of that 
time the contact between varius and nuchalis was poorly known. The paper from 
Darren Irwin’s lab by Sampath Seneviratne shows this is now being studied 
with a genetics. Devillers advised that other characters, such as the pattern 
on the back and scapulars, should be assessed. I think a wintering bird in 
California, such as the one under discussion, could be a bird with mixed 
ancestry, but apart from some aspects of red possibly bleeding into the black 
frame around the throat, that bird looks largely like a Yellow-bellied 
Sapsucker. If such a bird were proposed as a hybrid from the East, genetic 
sampling would be required to evaluate the claim. 


Louis Bevier
Fairfield, Maine
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2 AT CORNELL.EDU>
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:50:43 +0000
I see a good master's thesis work, or similar quick paper, here. Given the 
strong divide between Yellow-bellied and Red-naped sapsuckers genetically, and 
the prevalence of intermediate individuals in the East, one should be able to 
take toe pad samples from museum specimens and compare the phenotypic 
characters with genetic data and make some strong statement about hybridization 
and appearance. 



Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D.
Project Manager
Distance Learning in Bird Biology
Cornell Lab of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
kjm2 AT cornell.edu
607-254-2452
________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Louis Bevier  

Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 8:30:54 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker

Regarding the presence of red in the nape of Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, I would 
echo what Kevin McGowan has shown with photos of living birds and what Matt 
Brady has pointed out with dead ones, that red in the nape occurs in breeding 
varius well east of the contact zone. This was pointed out at least as early as 
the 1950s by Earl Godfrey, who cited a specimen with a red nape from Megantic, 
Quebec, only 10s of miles from Maine. Tom Howell in 1952, quoting Godfrey, said 
that this individual showed more red in the nape than several examples of 
varius similarly “tainted" west to Alberta. Pierre Devillers picked up on this 
too, cautioning in 1970 that red in the nape cannot be relied upon for 
identification or signs of hybridization, although he did say that as of that 
time the contact between varius and nuchalis was poorly known. The paper from 
Darren Irwin’s lab by Sampath Seneviratne shows this is now being studied with 
a genetics. Devillers advised that other characters, such as the pattern on the 
back and scapulars, should be assessed. I think a wintering bird in California, 
such as the one under discussion, could be a bird with mixed ancestry, but 
apart from some aspects of red possibly bleeding into the black frame around 
the throat, that bird looks largely like a Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. If such a 
bird were proposed as a hybrid from the East, genetic sampling would be 
required to evaluate the claim. 


Louis Bevier
Fairfield, Maine
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Louis Bevier <lrbevier AT COLBY.EDU>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 20:30:54 -0500
Regarding the presence of red in the nape of Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, I would 
echo what Kevin McGowan has shown with photos of living birds and what Matt 
Brady has pointed out with dead ones, that red in the nape occurs in breeding 
varius well east of the contact zone. This was pointed out at least as early as 
the 1950s by Earl Godfrey, who cited a specimen with a red nape from Megantic, 
Quebec, only 10s of miles from Maine. Tom Howell in 1952, quoting Godfrey, said 
that this individual showed more red in the nape than several examples of 
varius similarly “tainted" west to Alberta. Pierre Devillers picked up on 
this too, cautioning in 1970 that red in the nape cannot be relied upon for 
identification or signs of hybridization, although he did say that as of that 
time the contact between varius and nuchalis was poorly known. The paper from 
Darren Irwin’s lab by Sampath Seneviratne shows this is now being studied 
with a genetics. Devillers advised that other characters, such as the pattern 
on the back and scapulars, should be assessed. I think a wintering bird in 
California, such as the one under discussion, could be a bird with mixed 
ancestry, but apart from some aspects of red possibly bleeding into the black 
frame around the throat, that bird looks largely like a Yellow-bellied 
Sapsucker. If such a bird were proposed as a hybrid from the East, genetic 
sampling would be required to evaluate the claim. 


Louis Bevier
Fairfield, Maine
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Jerry Tangren <kloshewoods AT OUTLOOK.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 23:44:02 +0000
Introgression into eastern populations?

--Jerry Tangren

Get Outlook for iOS




On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:40 AM -0800, "Matt Brady" 
> wrote: 



Hello all. I just looked at the extensive Sphyrapichus collection we have
here at the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Most (about 340) are
Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, but we have a good series of Red-naped (about
100), and a small number of hybrids between the two species (about five). A
small percentage of the Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that I looked at had red
feathers on the nape. This varied from a single feather, to a slight
pinkish wash, to a small number of feathers in a distinct arc across the
nape. The most red that any of these birds had in the malar were a few
feathers (fewer than five), and there seemed to be a correlation between
red in the nape and red in the malar. The apparent hybrids had more red
across the nape, and had varying amounts of red in the malar. The bird
photographed by Logan and John would not have stuck out as being
significantly different when lined up against 100 Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers
collected in the eastern US. Definitely on the 'red' end of the spectrum,
but not clearly within the range of a hybrid.

My take  on this bird is that it is mostly a Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. It
has just a touch of red in the nape, and a few red feathers in the malar.
The back pattern looks fine for a Yellow-bellied to me. If this is not a
pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is
what many of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of
the spectrum are.

Matt Brady
Baton Rouge, LA

On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, David Irons  wrote:

> I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly show red on
> the nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If this is the
> same bird I would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA.
>
> Dave Irons
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris  wrote:
> >
> > Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I cropped an
> image
> > that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe that the
> > perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the black border
> > depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though narrow
> > border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side, red
> > feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on my
> > checklist).
> > Thank you all for this interesting discussion
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
> > John Harris
> > Oakdale, CA
> >
> >> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where both
> >> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare. One
> expert
> >> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all thought, and
> if
> >> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Logan Kahle
> >>
> >> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
> >>
> >> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
> >>
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393 <
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393>
> >>
> >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <
> >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
> >>
> >>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >>
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Jocelyn Hudon <Jocelyn.Hudon AT GOV.AB.CA>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 22:58:50 +0000
Tim,

That sapsucker can be identified as a female from the presence of white on the 
chin. A female Yellow-bellied Sapsucker would have a completely white throat, 
so this can't be a pure YBSA. The amount of white on the back does suggest some 
YBSA ancestry and in all likeliness this is a hybrid sapsucker. 


Cheers,

Jocelyn

Jocelyn Hudon, Ph.D.
Curator of Ornithology
Royal Alberta Museum

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Tim Avery 

Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 3:22 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker

So what about a bird like this one?

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S13756042

Still showing juvenile plumage traits in April, along with a back typical of a 
YBSA--but with that nasty more than a little red in the nape. 


Take away the nape, and I would have called this a pure YBSA based off 
everything else. There are a handful of birds like this leaning more YBSA than 
RNSA and no one really pulls the trigger on a pure bird because of the slight 
traits of the more expected species here. 


So are we being too conservative out west? Based off this conversation it would 
seem so... 


Cheers
Tim Avery



On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Kevin J. McGowan  wrote:

> We get these birds in New York. See http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch
> ecklist/S14279060.
>
> The Cornell collection has a number of New York Yellow-bellied
> Sapsucker specimens with varying amounts of red on the nape. I haven't
> looked at them for a while, but I remember seeing a half dozen or so.
>
> Kevin
>
>
> Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D.
> Project Manager
> Distance Learning in Bird Biology
> Cornell Lab of Ornithology
> 159 Sapsucker Woods Road
> Ithaca, NY 14850
> kjm2 AT cornell.edu
> 607-254-2452
>
>
>
> Do you know about our other distance-learning opportunities? Visit
> Bird Academy, https://academy.allaboutbirds.org/courses/  to see our
> list of courses, and  http://www.birds.cornell.edu/courses/home  to
> learn about our series of webinars. Purchase them here.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Joseph Morlan
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 4:57 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker
>
> I recall seeing a photo taken by Kevin Karlson of a presumed
> Yellow-bellied Sapsucker with an obvious red nape patch.  Kevin was a
> keynote speaker for the Central Valley Birding Symposium some years
> back when I saw the photo and if I remember correctly, this bird was
> one of a breeding pair in upstate New York.  Jon Dunn and I commented
> on it to Kevin at the time.
>
> It seemed unlikely that this bird at a nest in the midst of
> Yellow-bellied range was a hybrid or a Red-naped.  I assumed that it
> was just a rare variant Yellow-bellied.  I believe that there are also
> a small percentage of Red-naped Sapsuckers that lack red in the nape.
> For these reasons I prefer to use characters other than presence or
> absence of red in the nape in assessing potential hybrid sapsuckers.
>
> On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:24:21 -0800, Wayne Hoffman 
> wrote:
>
> >At this point Ned Johnson took a specimen of Red-breasted and
> >carefully clipped the tips off the head, neck, and breast feathers
> >(or he had a graduate student do it?).  With the feather tips removed
> >a pattern was revealed that was extremely similar to Red-naped.  So
> >in essence, the control sequence was modified by adding
> instructions to squirt red into the feather tips, and once the tips
> were formed, to revert back to the ancestral pattern.  It would be
> easy to imagine an individual with a red pigment deficiency being
> mistaken for a hybrid.
>
> Yes, Johnson mentioned to me that birds going in and out of their nest
> holes may have the colored tips of their feathers wear off naturally
> resulting in some Red-breasted Sapsuckers being misidentified as
> hybrids or even as Red-naped.
>
> On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:20:22 -0600, Matt Brady  wrote:
>
> >"Are there just too many specimens of YBSA from the E that show red
> >for them all to be hybrids?"
> >
> >Nick, that's my impression. I've definitely seen a number of
> >otherwise fine-looking YBSA here in Louisiana that have a touch of red to 
the nape. 

> >The specimens seem to back this up. Of course, being strictly a
> >wintering species in Louisiana, it's hard to know where our wintering
> >birds come from, and it's certainly possible that we get a small but
> >substantial number of birds from the hybrid zone.
> >
> >Some of our older specimens with red in the nape do come from
> >Tennessee, so if these birds are indeed of hybrid origin, then they
> >winter rather east, and have been doing so since the mid 20th century.
> >
> >Matt
> >
> >On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:59 PM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:
> >
> >> Flipping this around, what is the evidence that a YB Sapsucker with
> >> some red in the nape isn't a hybrid? Are there just too many
> >> specimens of YBSA from the E that show red for them all to be hybrids?
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> >> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Matt Brady
> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 12:56 PM
> >> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker
> >>
> >> Chris, I mis-wrote: I should have said "If this is not a pure
> >> Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which
> >> is
> >> what* I would guess* *some* of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that
> >> are on the 'red' end of the spectrum are." I don't want to sound
> >> like I think that all Yellow-bellied-with-red-on-the-nape
> >> Sapsuckers are of hybrid origin, but I do think that it makes sense that 
many are. 

> >>
> >> We do have two specimens of birds identified as hybrids from
> >> Louisiana here at LSUMNS, which is about as many records the LBRC
> >> has accepted of phenotypically pure Red-naped Sapsuckers. So yes,
> >> they do occur in the east, within the range of Yellow-bellied Sapsucker.
> >>
> >> Matt Brady
> >> Baton Rouge LA
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:08 PM Chris Corben
> >> 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > A bit confused by this.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > You write: "If this is not a pure Yellow-bellied, then I would
> >> > guess
> >> >
> >> > it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what many of these
> >> > Yellow-bellied
> >> >
> >> > Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of the spectrum are. "
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > So are you saying that birds in the east with this much red are
> >> > F2 or
> >> > F3
> >> >
> >> > hybrids?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Cheers, Chris.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 12/14/2016 12:29 PM, Matt Brady wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hello all. I just looked at the extensive Sphyrapichus
> >> > > collection we have
> >> >
> >> > > here at the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Most (about 340) are
> >> >
> >> > > Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, but we have a good series of
> >> > > Red-naped (about
> >> >
> >> > > 100), and a small number of hybrids between the two species
> >> > > (about
> >> > five). A
> >> >
> >> > > small percentage of the Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that I looked
> >> > > at had
> >> > red
> >> >
> >> > > feathers on the nape. This varied from a single feather, to a
> >> > > slight
> >> >
> >> > > pinkish wash, to a small number of feathers in a distinct arc
> >> > > across the
> >> >
> >> > > nape. The most red that any of these birds had in the malar
> >> > > were a few
> >> >
> >> > > feathers (fewer than five), and there seemed to be a
> >> > > correlation between
> >> >
> >> > > red in the nape and red in the malar. The apparent hybrids had
> >> > > more red
> >> >
> >> > > across the nape, and had varying amounts of red in the malar.
> >> > > The bird
> >> >
> >> > > photographed by Logan and John would not have stuck out as
> >> > > being
> >> >
> >> > > significantly different when lined up against 100
> >> > > Yellow-bellied
> >> > Sapsuckers
> >> >
> >> > > collected in the eastern US. Definitely on the 'red' end of the
> >> > > spectrum,
> >> >
> >> > > but not clearly within the range of a hybrid.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > My take  on this bird is that it is mostly a Yellow-bellied
> >> > > Sapsucker. It
> >> >
> >> > > has just a touch of red in the nape, and a few red feathers in
> >> > > the
> >> malar.
> >> >
> >> > > The back pattern looks fine for a Yellow-bellied to me. If this
> >> > > is not a
> >> >
> >> > > pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3
> >> > > hybrid, which is
> >> >
> >> > > what many of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red'
> >> > > end of
> >> >
> >> > > the spectrum are.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Matt Brady
> >> >
> >> > > Baton Rouge, LA
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, David Irons
> >> > > 
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > >> I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly
> >> > >> show red on
> >> >
> >> > >> the nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If
> >> > >> this is the
> >> >
> >> > >> same bird I would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA.
> >> >
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> > >> Dave Irons
> >> >
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> > >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> >
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> > >>> On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >>>
> >> >
> >> > >>> Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I
> >> > >>> cropped an
> >> >
> >> > >> image
> >> >
> >> > >>> that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe
> >> > >>> that the
> >> >
> >> > >>> perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the
> >> > >>> black
> >> > border
> >> >
> >> > >>> depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though
> >> > >>> narrow
> >> >
> >> > >>> border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the
> >> > >>> side, red
> >> >
> >> > >>> feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo
> >> > >>> on my
> >> >
> >> > >>> checklist).
> >> >
> >> > >>> Thank you all for this interesting discussion
> >> >
> >> > >>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
> >> >
> >> > >>> John Harris
> >> >
> >> > >>> Oakdale, CA
> >> >
> >> > >>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle
> >> > >>>> 
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Hi All,
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA,
> >> > >>>> where both
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare.
> >> > >>>> One
> >> >
> >> > >> expert
> >> >
> >> > >>>> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all
> >> > >>>> thought, and
> >> >
> >> > >> if
> >> >
> >> > >>>> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Thanks!
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Logan Kahle
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/721576734
> >> > >>>> 54
> >> > >>>> 245
> >> > >>>> 393
> >> > <
> >> >
> >> > >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/721576734
> >> > >>>> 54
> >> > >>>> 245
> >> > >>>> 393>
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <
> >> >
> >> > >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >> >
> >> > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >> >
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Chris Corben.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >>
> >
> >Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> --
> Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

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Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 14:40:11 -0800
Hi Wayne and all -

Good discussion. Yet another source of variation 
in plumage appearance is the interaction between 
pigment-deposition and molt cycles. This 
especially shows up in species with distinct 
alternate and basic plumage appearances, but even 
in species that lack prealternate molts there can 
be some effect (such as in adult male Summer 
Tanagers that molt early and have yellowish inner 
primaries). Early prebasic molts in adults (in 
failed breeders for example) sometimes can result 
in juvenile-like plumage traits, and possibly may 
result in ancestral traits not currently 
associated with a species. A very understudied 
subject that would be great for a grad-student to dive into.

Discussion of molt/pigment deposition interactions in Common Murres:
http://www.birdpop.org/docs/pubs/Pyle_2013_Dark-faced_COMU_off_Central_CA.pdf

Peter

At 01:24 PM 12/14/2016, Wayne Hoffman wrote:
>Hi -Â
>
>Matt's investigation brings up a very important 
>issue. Â Species populations normally encompass 
>a fair amount of variability, independent of any 
>hybrid influence. Â Sometimes some of this 
>variability is in characters that can also be 
>influenced by gene flow (hybrid influence), 
>without actually being result from that source. 
>Â Consider a pair of species that occasionally 
>hybridize, in which typical body size is larger 
>in one than in the other, Â We tend not to 
>automatically call smaller individuals of the 
>larger species, or larger individuals of the 
>smaller species "hybrids" just because of their 
>size. There are multiple other causes of size variation.
>
>When it comes to differences in feather 
>pigmentation other causes are possible as well. 
>Â Think about the physiological processes 
>involved in feather pigmentation: Â When the 
>feather papilla activate to grow new feathers, 
>pigment cells activate within them and squirt 
>pigments into the forming feather tissue. Â So 
>the tip of the feather grows first, and as 
>growth progresses, progressively lower parts of 
>the feather grow. Â When a feather has a 
>complicated pattern (e.g., spotting or 
>two-colored barring) the different pigment cells 
>have to be activated and deactivated according 
>on a fairly precise schedule,which of course 
>differs for different colored patches of feathers.
>
>In the sapsuckers and probably many other groups 
>of closely related species, the "machinery" for 
>producing all the different species' patterns 
>may be present in all individuals, and the 
>species differences are really just differences 
>in the control program. Â You could think of the 
>feather papilla as a 3D printer, and the 
>different species patterns result from the 
>"same" printers being sent different control sequences.
>
>So now the questions become, how are these 
>control sequences coded, and how do they evolve? 
>Â As far as I know, no detailed answers exists, 
>but at least in part, the coding likely involves 
>turning on and off the transcription of 
>particular genes, and evolution would be 
>operating on this activation/deactivation 
>system. Â If the common ancestors had the same 
>suite of colors and pattern types, it is easy to 
>imagine small mutations that de-activate a newly 
>evolved piece of instruction, resulting in 
>patterns more like the ancestors. Â And because 
>the control sequences differ from feather to 
>feather at the scale of the final pattern, these 
>deactivations can happen on a scale of a few feathers.
>
>Now to bring this back to sapsuckers; Â A few 
>decades ago when it was decided that S. varius 
>should be split, Red-breasted was first split 
>off with Red-naped retained as a subspecies of 
>Yellow-bellied. Â Shortly thereafter genetic 
>studies indicated that Red-bellied and Red-naped 
>were actually more closely related to each other 
>than either was to Yellow-bellied, and so all 
>three were recognized as species. Â At this 
>point Ned Johnson took a specimen of 
>Red-breasted and carefully clipped the tips off 
>the head, neck, and breast feathers (or he had a 
>graduate student do it?). Â With the feather 
>tips removed  a pattern was revealed that was 
>extremely similar to Red-naped. Â So in essence, 
>the control sequence was modified by adding 
>instructions to squirt red into the feather 
>tips, and once the tips were formed, to revert 
>back to the ancestral pattern. Â It would be 
>easy to imagine an individual with a red pigment 
>deficiency being mistaken for a hybrid.
>
>Bottom line: Â I recommend being a bit 
>conservative about calling birds that differ in 
>minor ways from "typical" hybrids, unless they 
>show hybrid influence in multiple features.
>
>If I wanted to continue bloviating, I would now 
>bring up the "Blue-winged Warblers" living in 
>areas where Golden-winged Warblers were recently 
>displaced, but that can wait for another time.
>
>Wayne
>
>
>
>On 12/14/2016 10:40:09 AM, Matt Brady  wrote:
>Hello all. I just looked at the extensive Sphyrapichus collection we have
>here at the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Most (about 340) are
>Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, but we have a good series of Red-naped (about
>100), and a small number of hybrids between the two species (about five). A
>small percentage of the Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that I looked at had red
>feathers on the nape. This varied from a single feather, to a slight
>pinkish wash, to a small number of feathers in a distinct arc across the
>nape. The most red that any of these birds had in the malar were a few
>feathers (fewer than five), and there seemed to be a correlation between
>red in the nape and red in the malar. The apparent hybrids had more red
>across the nape, and had varying amounts of red in the malar. The bird
>photographed by Logan and John would not have stuck out as being
>significantly different when lined up against 100 Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers
>collected in the eastern US. Definitely on the 'red' end of the spectrum,
>but not clearly within the range of a hybrid.
>
>My take on this bird is that it is mostly a Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. It
>has just a touch of red in the nape, and a few red feathers in the malar.
>The back pattern looks fine for a Yellow-bellied to me. If this is not a
>pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is
>what many of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of
>the spectrum are.
>
>Matt Brady
>Baton Rouge, LA
>
>On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, David Irons wrote:
>
> > I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly show red on
> > the nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If this is the
> > same bird I would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA.
> >
> > Dave Irons
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris wrote:
> > >
> > > Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I cropped an
> > image
> > > that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe that the
> > > perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the black border
> > > depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though narrow
> > > border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side, red
> > > feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on my
> > > checklist).
> > > Thank you all for this interesting discussion
> > > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
> > > John Harris
> > > Oakdale, CA
> > >
> > >> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi All,
> > >>
> > >> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where both
> > >> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare. One
> > expert
> > >> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all thought, and
> > if
> > >> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks!
> > >>
> > >> Logan Kahle
> > >>
> > >> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
> > >>
> > >> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
> > >>
> > >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393 <>
> > >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393>
> > >>
> > >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <>
> > >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> > >>
> > >
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Tim Avery <western.tanager AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:21:59 -0700
So what about a bird like this one?

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S13756042

Still showing juvenile plumage traits in April, along with a back typical
of a YBSA--but with that nasty more than a little red in the nape.

Take away the nape, and I would have called this a pure YBSA based off
everything else.  There are a handful of birds like this leaning more YBSA
than RNSA and no one really pulls the trigger on a pure bird because of the
slight traits of the more expected species here.

So are we being too conservative out west? Based off this conversation it
would seem so...

Cheers
Tim Avery



On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Kevin J. McGowan  wrote:

> We get these birds in New York. See http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch
> ecklist/S14279060.
>
> The Cornell collection has a number of New York Yellow-bellied Sapsucker
> specimens with varying amounts of red on the nape. I haven't looked at them
> for a while, but I remember seeing a half dozen or so.
>
> Kevin
>
>
> Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D.
> Project Manager
> Distance Learning in Bird Biology
> Cornell Lab of Ornithology
> 159 Sapsucker Woods Road
> Ithaca, NY 14850
> kjm2 AT cornell.edu
> 607-254-2452
>
>
>
> Do you know about our other distance-learning opportunities? Visit Bird
> Academy, https://academy.allaboutbirds.org/courses/  to see our list of
> courses, and  http://www.birds.cornell.edu/courses/home  to learn about
> our series of webinars. Purchase them here.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Joseph Morlan
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 4:57 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker
>
> I recall seeing a photo taken by Kevin Karlson of a presumed
> Yellow-bellied Sapsucker with an obvious red nape patch.  Kevin was a
> keynote speaker for the Central Valley Birding Symposium some years back
> when I saw the photo and if I remember correctly, this bird was one of a
> breeding pair in upstate New York.  Jon Dunn and I commented on it to Kevin
> at the time.
>
> It seemed unlikely that this bird at a nest in the midst of Yellow-bellied
> range was a hybrid or a Red-naped.  I assumed that it was just a rare
> variant Yellow-bellied.  I believe that there are also a small percentage
> of Red-naped Sapsuckers that lack red in the nape. For these reasons I
> prefer to use characters other than presence or absence of red in the nape
> in assessing potential hybrid sapsuckers.
>
> On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:24:21 -0800, Wayne Hoffman 
> wrote:
>
> >At this point Ned Johnson took a specimen of Red-breasted and carefully
> >clipped the tips off the head, neck, and breast feathers (or he had a
> >graduate student do it?).  With the feather tips removed  a pattern was
> >revealed that was extremely similar to Red-naped.  So in essence, the
> >control sequence was modified by adding
> instructions to squirt red into the feather tips, and once the tips were
> formed, to revert back to the ancestral pattern.  It would be easy to
> imagine an individual with a red pigment deficiency being mistaken for a
> hybrid.
>
> Yes, Johnson mentioned to me that birds going in and out of their nest
> holes may have the colored tips of their feathers wear off naturally
> resulting in some Red-breasted Sapsuckers being misidentified as hybrids or
> even as Red-naped.
>
> On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:20:22 -0600, Matt Brady  wrote:
>
> >"Are there just too many specimens of YBSA from the E that show red for
> >them all to be hybrids?"
> >
> >Nick, that's my impression. I've definitely seen a number of otherwise
> >fine-looking YBSA here in Louisiana that have a touch of red to the nape.
> >The specimens seem to back this up. Of course, being strictly a
> >wintering species in Louisiana, it's hard to know where our wintering
> >birds come from, and it's certainly possible that we get a small but
> >substantial number of birds from the hybrid zone.
> >
> >Some of our older specimens with red in the nape do come from
> >Tennessee, so if these birds are indeed of hybrid origin, then they
> >winter rather east, and have been doing so since the mid 20th century.
> >
> >Matt
> >
> >On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:59 PM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:
> >
> >> Flipping this around, what is the evidence that a YB Sapsucker with
> >> some red in the nape isn't a hybrid? Are there just too many
> >> specimens of YBSA from the E that show red for them all to be hybrids?
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> >> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Matt Brady
> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 12:56 PM
> >> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker
> >>
> >> Chris, I mis-wrote: I should have said "If this is not a pure
> >> Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is
> >> what* I would guess* *some* of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that
> >> are on the 'red' end of the spectrum are." I don't want to sound like
> >> I think that all Yellow-bellied-with-red-on-the-nape Sapsuckers are
> >> of hybrid origin, but I do think that it makes sense that many are.
> >>
> >> We do have two specimens of birds identified as hybrids from
> >> Louisiana here at LSUMNS, which is about as many records the LBRC has
> >> accepted of phenotypically pure Red-naped Sapsuckers. So yes, they do
> >> occur in the east, within the range of Yellow-bellied Sapsucker.
> >>
> >> Matt Brady
> >> Baton Rouge LA
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:08 PM Chris Corben 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > A bit confused by this.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > You write: "If this is not a pure Yellow-bellied, then I would
> >> > guess
> >> >
> >> > it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what many of these Yellow-bellied
> >> >
> >> > Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of the spectrum are. "
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > So are you saying that birds in the east with this much red are F2
> >> > or
> >> > F3
> >> >
> >> > hybrids?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Cheers, Chris.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 12/14/2016 12:29 PM, Matt Brady wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hello all. I just looked at the extensive Sphyrapichus collection
> >> > > we have
> >> >
> >> > > here at the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Most (about 340) are
> >> >
> >> > > Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, but we have a good series of Red-naped
> >> > > (about
> >> >
> >> > > 100), and a small number of hybrids between the two species
> >> > > (about
> >> > five). A
> >> >
> >> > > small percentage of the Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that I looked
> >> > > at had
> >> > red
> >> >
> >> > > feathers on the nape. This varied from a single feather, to a
> >> > > slight
> >> >
> >> > > pinkish wash, to a small number of feathers in a distinct arc
> >> > > across the
> >> >
> >> > > nape. The most red that any of these birds had in the malar were
> >> > > a few
> >> >
> >> > > feathers (fewer than five), and there seemed to be a correlation
> >> > > between
> >> >
> >> > > red in the nape and red in the malar. The apparent hybrids had
> >> > > more red
> >> >
> >> > > across the nape, and had varying amounts of red in the malar. The
> >> > > bird
> >> >
> >> > > photographed by Logan and John would not have stuck out as being
> >> >
> >> > > significantly different when lined up against 100 Yellow-bellied
> >> > Sapsuckers
> >> >
> >> > > collected in the eastern US. Definitely on the 'red' end of the
> >> > > spectrum,
> >> >
> >> > > but not clearly within the range of a hybrid.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > My take  on this bird is that it is mostly a Yellow-bellied
> >> > > Sapsucker. It
> >> >
> >> > > has just a touch of red in the nape, and a few red feathers in
> >> > > the
> >> malar.
> >> >
> >> > > The back pattern looks fine for a Yellow-bellied to me. If this
> >> > > is not a
> >> >
> >> > > pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid,
> >> > > which is
> >> >
> >> > > what many of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red'
> >> > > end of
> >> >
> >> > > the spectrum are.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Matt Brady
> >> >
> >> > > Baton Rouge, LA
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, David Irons 
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > >> I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly show
> >> > >> red on
> >> >
> >> > >> the nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If this
> >> > >> is the
> >> >
> >> > >> same bird I would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA.
> >> >
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> > >> Dave Irons
> >> >
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> > >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> >
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> > >>> On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >>>
> >> >
> >> > >>> Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I
> >> > >>> cropped an
> >> >
> >> > >> image
> >> >
> >> > >>> that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe
> >> > >>> that the
> >> >
> >> > >>> perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the
> >> > >>> black
> >> > border
> >> >
> >> > >>> depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though
> >> > >>> narrow
> >> >
> >> > >>> border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side,
> >> > >>> red
> >> >
> >> > >>> feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on
> >> > >>> my
> >> >
> >> > >>> checklist).
> >> >
> >> > >>> Thank you all for this interesting discussion
> >> >
> >> > >>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
> >> >
> >> > >>> John Harris
> >> >
> >> > >>> Oakdale, CA
> >> >
> >> > >>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle
> >> > >>>> 
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Hi All,
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA,
> >> > >>>> where both
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare.
> >> > >>>> One
> >> >
> >> > >> expert
> >> >
> >> > >>>> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all
> >> > >>>> thought, and
> >> >
> >> > >> if
> >> >
> >> > >>>> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Thanks!
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Logan Kahle
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454
> >> > >>>> 245
> >> > >>>> 393
> >> > <
> >> >
> >> > >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454
> >> > >>>> 245
> >> > >>>> 393>
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <
> >> >
> >> > >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >> >
> >> > >>>>
> >> >
> >> > >>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >> >
> >> > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >> >
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Chris Corben.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >>
> >
> >Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> --
> Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2 AT CORNELL.EDU>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 22:02:43 +0000
We get these birds in New York. See 
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S14279060. 


The Cornell collection has a number of New York Yellow-bellied Sapsucker 
specimens with varying amounts of red on the nape. I haven't looked at them for 
a while, but I remember seeing a half dozen or so. 


Kevin


Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D.
Project Manager
Distance Learning in Bird Biology
Cornell Lab of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
kjm2 AT cornell.edu
607-254-2452


 
Do you know about our other distance-learning opportunities? Visit Bird 
Academy, https://academy.allaboutbirds.org/courses/ to see our list of courses, 
and http://www.birds.cornell.edu/courses/home to learn about our series of 
webinars. Purchase them here. 





-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Joseph Morlan 

Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 4:57 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker

I recall seeing a photo taken by Kevin Karlson of a presumed Yellow-bellied 
Sapsucker with an obvious red nape patch. Kevin was a keynote speaker for the 
Central Valley Birding Symposium some years back when I saw the photo and if I 
remember correctly, this bird was one of a breeding pair in upstate New York. 
Jon Dunn and I commented on it to Kevin at the time. 


It seemed unlikely that this bird at a nest in the midst of Yellow-bellied 
range was a hybrid or a Red-naped. I assumed that it was just a rare variant 
Yellow-bellied. I believe that there are also a small percentage of Red-naped 
Sapsuckers that lack red in the nape. For these reasons I prefer to use 
characters other than presence or absence of red in the nape in assessing 
potential hybrid sapsuckers. 


On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:24:21 -0800, Wayne Hoffman 
wrote:

>At this point Ned Johnson took a specimen of Red-breasted and carefully 
>clipped the tips off the head, neck, and breast feathers (or he had a 
>graduate student do it?).  With the feather tips removed  a pattern was 
>revealed that was extremely similar to Red-naped.  So in essence, the 
>control sequence was modified by adding
instructions to squirt red into the feather tips, and once the tips were 
formed, to revert back to the ancestral pattern.  It would be easy to imagine 
an individual with a red pigment deficiency being mistaken for a hybrid. 


Yes, Johnson mentioned to me that birds going in and out of their nest holes 
may have the colored tips of their feathers wear off naturally resulting in 
some Red-breasted Sapsuckers being misidentified as hybrids or even as 
Red-naped. 


On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:20:22 -0600, Matt Brady  wrote:

>"Are there just too many specimens of YBSA from the E that show red for 
>them all to be hybrids?"
>
>Nick, that's my impression. I've definitely seen a number of otherwise 
>fine-looking YBSA here in Louisiana that have a touch of red to the nape.
>The specimens seem to back this up. Of course, being strictly a 
>wintering species in Louisiana, it's hard to know where our wintering 
>birds come from, and it's certainly possible that we get a small but 
>substantial number of birds from the hybrid zone.
>
>Some of our older specimens with red in the nape do come from 
>Tennessee, so if these birds are indeed of hybrid origin, then they 
>winter rather east, and have been doing so since the mid 20th century.
>
>Matt
>
>On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:59 PM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:
>
>> Flipping this around, what is the evidence that a YB Sapsucker with 
>> some red in the nape isn't a hybrid? Are there just too many 
>> specimens of YBSA from the E that show red for them all to be hybrids?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
>> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Matt Brady
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 12:56 PM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker
>>
>> Chris, I mis-wrote: I should have said "If this is not a pure 
>> Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is 
>> what* I would guess* *some* of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that 
>> are on the 'red' end of the spectrum are." I don't want to sound like 
>> I think that all Yellow-bellied-with-red-on-the-nape Sapsuckers are 
>> of hybrid origin, but I do think that it makes sense that many are.
>>
>> We do have two specimens of birds identified as hybrids from 
>> Louisiana here at LSUMNS, which is about as many records the LBRC has 
>> accepted of phenotypically pure Red-naped Sapsuckers. So yes, they do 
>> occur in the east, within the range of Yellow-bellied Sapsucker.
>>
>> Matt Brady
>> Baton Rouge LA
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:08 PM Chris Corben 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > A bit confused by this.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > You write: "If this is not a pure Yellow-bellied, then I would 
>> > guess
>> >
>> > it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what many of these Yellow-bellied
>> >
>> > Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of the spectrum are. "
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > So are you saying that birds in the east with this much red are F2 
>> > or
>> > F3
>> >
>> > hybrids?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Cheers, Chris.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 12/14/2016 12:29 PM, Matt Brady wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hello all. I just looked at the extensive Sphyrapichus collection 
>> > > we have
>> >
>> > > here at the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Most (about 340) are
>> >
>> > > Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, but we have a good series of Red-naped 
>> > > (about
>> >
>> > > 100), and a small number of hybrids between the two species 
>> > > (about
>> > five). A
>> >
>> > > small percentage of the Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that I looked 
>> > > at had
>> > red
>> >
>> > > feathers on the nape. This varied from a single feather, to a 
>> > > slight
>> >
>> > > pinkish wash, to a small number of feathers in a distinct arc 
>> > > across the
>> >
>> > > nape. The most red that any of these birds had in the malar were 
>> > > a few
>> >
>> > > feathers (fewer than five), and there seemed to be a correlation 
>> > > between
>> >
>> > > red in the nape and red in the malar. The apparent hybrids had 
>> > > more red
>> >
>> > > across the nape, and had varying amounts of red in the malar. The 
>> > > bird
>> >
>> > > photographed by Logan and John would not have stuck out as being
>> >
>> > > significantly different when lined up against 100 Yellow-bellied
>> > Sapsuckers
>> >
>> > > collected in the eastern US. Definitely on the 'red' end of the 
>> > > spectrum,
>> >
>> > > but not clearly within the range of a hybrid.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > My take  on this bird is that it is mostly a Yellow-bellied 
>> > > Sapsucker. It
>> >
>> > > has just a touch of red in the nape, and a few red feathers in 
>> > > the
>> malar.
>> >
>> > > The back pattern looks fine for a Yellow-bellied to me. If this 
>> > > is not a
>> >
>> > > pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, 
>> > > which is
>> >
>> > > what many of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red'
>> > > end of
>> >
>> > > the spectrum are.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Matt Brady
>> >
>> > > Baton Rouge, LA
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, David Irons 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > >> I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly show 
>> > >> red on
>> >
>> > >> the nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If this 
>> > >> is the
>> >
>> > >> same bird I would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA.
>> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> > >> Dave Irons
>> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> > >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> > >>> On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris  wrote:
>> >
>> > >>>
>> >
>> > >>> Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I 
>> > >>> cropped an
>> >
>> > >> image
>> >
>> > >>> that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe 
>> > >>> that the
>> >
>> > >>> perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the 
>> > >>> black
>> > border
>> >
>> > >>> depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though 
>> > >>> narrow
>> >
>> > >>> border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side, 
>> > >>> red
>> >
>> > >>> feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on 
>> > >>> my
>> >
>> > >>> checklist).
>> >
>> > >>> Thank you all for this interesting discussion
>> >
>> > >>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
>> >
>> > >>> John Harris
>> >
>> > >>> Oakdale, CA
>> >
>> > >>>
>> >
>> > >>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle 
>> > >>>> 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> Hi All,
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, 
>> > >>>> where both
>> >
>> > >>>> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare.
>> > >>>> One
>> >
>> > >> expert
>> >
>> > >>>> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all 
>> > >>>> thought, and
>> >
>> > >> if
>> >
>> > >>>> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> Thanks!
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> Logan Kahle
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454
>> > >>>> 245
>> > >>>> 393
>> > <
>> >
>> > >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454
>> > >>>> 245
>> > >>>> 393>
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <
>> >
>> > >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> >
>> > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Chris Corben.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>>
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:56:56 -0800
I recall seeing a photo taken by Kevin Karlson of a presumed Yellow-bellied
Sapsucker with an obvious red nape patch.  Kevin was a keynote speaker for
the Central Valley Birding Symposium some years back when I saw the photo
and if I remember correctly, this bird was one of a breeding pair in
upstate New York.  Jon Dunn and I commented on it to Kevin at the time.

It seemed unlikely that this bird at a nest in the midst of Yellow-bellied
range was a hybrid or a Red-naped.  I assumed that it was just a rare
variant Yellow-bellied.  I believe that there are also a small percentage
of Red-naped Sapsuckers that lack red in the nape. For these reasons I
prefer to use characters other than presence or absence of red in the nape
in assessing potential hybrid sapsuckers.  

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:24:21 -0800, Wayne Hoffman 
wrote:

>At this point Ned Johnson took a specimen of Red-breasted and carefully 
clipped the tips off the head, neck, and breast feathers (or he had a graduate 
student do it?).  With the feather tips removed  a pattern was revealed that 
was extremely similar to Red-naped.  So in essence, the control sequence was 
modified by adding 

instructions to squirt red into the feather tips, and once the tips were 
formed, to revert back to the ancestral pattern.  It would be easy to imagine 
an individual with a red pigment deficiency being mistaken for a hybrid. 


Yes, Johnson mentioned to me that birds going in and out of their nest
holes may have the colored tips of their feathers wear off naturally
resulting in some Red-breasted Sapsuckers being misidentified as hybrids or
even as Red-naped.  

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:20:22 -0600, Matt Brady  wrote:

>"Are there just too many specimens of YBSA from the E that show red for
>them all to be hybrids?"
>
>Nick, that's my impression. I've definitely seen a number of otherwise
>fine-looking YBSA here in Louisiana that have a touch of red to the nape.
>The specimens seem to back this up. Of course, being strictly a wintering
>species in Louisiana, it's hard to know where our wintering birds come
>from, and it's certainly possible that we get a small but substantial
>number of birds from the hybrid zone.
>
>Some of our older specimens with red in the nape do come from Tennessee, so
>if these birds are indeed of hybrid origin, then they winter rather east,
>and have been doing so since the mid 20th century.
>
>Matt
>
>On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:59 PM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:
>
>> Flipping this around, what is the evidence that a YB Sapsucker with some
>> red in the nape isn't a hybrid? Are there just too many specimens of YBSA
>> from the E that show red for them all to be hybrids?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
>> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Matt Brady
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 12:56 PM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker
>>
>> Chris, I mis-wrote: I should have said "If this is not a pure
>> Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what*
>> I would guess* *some* of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the
>> 'red' end of the spectrum are." I don't want to sound like I think that all
>> Yellow-bellied-with-red-on-the-nape Sapsuckers are of hybrid origin, but
>> I do think that it makes sense that many are.
>>
>> We do have two specimens of birds identified as hybrids from Louisiana
>> here at LSUMNS, which is about as many records the LBRC has accepted of
>> phenotypically pure Red-naped Sapsuckers. So yes, they do occur in the
>> east, within the range of Yellow-bellied Sapsucker.
>>
>> Matt Brady
>> Baton Rouge LA
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:08 PM Chris Corben 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > A bit confused by this.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > You write: "If this is not a pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess
>> >
>> > it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what many of these Yellow-bellied
>> >
>> > Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of the spectrum are. "
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > So are you saying that birds in the east with this much red are F2 or
>> > F3
>> >
>> > hybrids?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Cheers, Chris.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 12/14/2016 12:29 PM, Matt Brady wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hello all. I just looked at the extensive Sphyrapichus collection we
>> > > have
>> >
>> > > here at the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Most (about 340) are
>> >
>> > > Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, but we have a good series of Red-naped
>> > > (about
>> >
>> > > 100), and a small number of hybrids between the two species (about
>> > five). A
>> >
>> > > small percentage of the Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that I looked at
>> > > had
>> > red
>> >
>> > > feathers on the nape. This varied from a single feather, to a slight
>> >
>> > > pinkish wash, to a small number of feathers in a distinct arc across
>> > > the
>> >
>> > > nape. The most red that any of these birds had in the malar were a
>> > > few
>> >
>> > > feathers (fewer than five), and there seemed to be a correlation
>> > > between
>> >
>> > > red in the nape and red in the malar. The apparent hybrids had more
>> > > red
>> >
>> > > across the nape, and had varying amounts of red in the malar. The
>> > > bird
>> >
>> > > photographed by Logan and John would not have stuck out as being
>> >
>> > > significantly different when lined up against 100 Yellow-bellied
>> > Sapsuckers
>> >
>> > > collected in the eastern US. Definitely on the 'red' end of the
>> > > spectrum,
>> >
>> > > but not clearly within the range of a hybrid.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > My take  on this bird is that it is mostly a Yellow-bellied
>> > > Sapsucker. It
>> >
>> > > has just a touch of red in the nape, and a few red feathers in the
>> malar.
>> >
>> > > The back pattern looks fine for a Yellow-bellied to me. If this is
>> > > not a
>> >
>> > > pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid,
>> > > which is
>> >
>> > > what many of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red'
>> > > end of
>> >
>> > > the spectrum are.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Matt Brady
>> >
>> > > Baton Rouge, LA
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, David Irons 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > >> I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly show
>> > >> red on
>> >
>> > >> the nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If this is
>> > >> the
>> >
>> > >> same bird I would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA.
>> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> > >> Dave Irons
>> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> > >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> > >>> On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris  wrote:
>> >
>> > >>>
>> >
>> > >>> Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I cropped
>> > >>> an
>> >
>> > >> image
>> >
>> > >>> that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe that
>> > >>> the
>> >
>> > >>> perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the black
>> > border
>> >
>> > >>> depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though
>> > >>> narrow
>> >
>> > >>> border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side,
>> > >>> red
>> >
>> > >>> feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on my
>> >
>> > >>> checklist).
>> >
>> > >>> Thank you all for this interesting discussion
>> >
>> > >>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
>> >
>> > >>> John Harris
>> >
>> > >>> Oakdale, CA
>> >
>> > >>>
>> >
>> > >>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> Hi All,
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where
>> > >>>> both
>> >
>> > >>>> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare.
>> > >>>> One
>> >
>> > >> expert
>> >
>> > >>>> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all
>> > >>>> thought, and
>> >
>> > >> if
>> >
>> > >>>> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> Thanks!
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> Logan Kahle
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245
>> > >>>> 393
>> > <
>> >
>> > >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245
>> > >>>> 393>
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <
>> >
>> > >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> >
>> > >>>>
>> >
>> > >>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> >
>> > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> >
>> > >>
>> >
>> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Chris Corben.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>>
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Wayne Hoffman <whoffman AT PEAK.ORG>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:24:21 -0800
Hi - 

Matt's investigation brings up a very important issue.  Species populations 
normally encompass a fair amount of variability, independent of any hybrid 
influence.  Sometimes some of this variability is in characters that can also 
be influenced by gene flow (hybrid influence), without actually being result 
from that source.  Consider a pair of species that occasionally hybridize, in 
which typical body size is larger in one than in the other,  We tend not to 
automatically call smaller individuals of the larger species, or larger 
individuals of the smaller species "hybrids" just because of their size. There 
are multiple other causes of size variation. 


When it comes to differences in feather pigmentation other causes are possible 
as well.  Think about the physiological processes involved in feather 
pigmentation:  When the feather papilla activate to grow new feathers, pigment 
cells activate within them and squirt pigments into the forming feather tissue. 
 So the tip of the feather grows first, and as growth progresses, 
progressively lower parts of the feather grow.  When a feather has a 
complicated pattern (e.g., spotting or two-colored barring) the different 
pigment cells have to be activated and deactivated according on a fairly 
precise schedule,which of course differs for different colored patches of 
feathers. 


In the sapsuckers and probably many other groups of closely related species, 
the "machinery" for producing all the different species' patterns may be 
present in all individuals, and the species differences are really just 
differences in the control program.  You could think of the feather papilla as 
a 3D printer, and the different species patterns result from the "same" 
printers being sent different control sequences. 


So now the questions become, how are these control sequences coded, and how do 
they evolve?  As far as I know, no detailed answers exists, but at least in 
part, the coding likely involves turning on and off the transcription of 
particular genes, and evolution would be operating on this 
activation/deactivation system.  If the common ancestors had the same suite of 
colors and pattern types, it is easy to imagine small mutations that 
de-activate a newly evolved piece of instruction, resulting in patterns more 
like the ancestors.  And because the control sequences differ from feather to 
feather at the scale of the final pattern, these deactivations can happen on a 
scale of a few feathers. 


Now to bring this back to sapsuckers;  A few decades ago when it was decided 
that S. varius should be split, Red-breasted was first split off with Red-naped 
retained as a subspecies of Yellow-bellied.  Shortly thereafter genetic 
studies indicated that Red-bellied and Red-naped were actually more closely 
related to each other than either was to Yellow-bellied, and so all three were 
recognized as species.  At this point Ned Johnson took a specimen of 
Red-breasted and carefully clipped the tips off the head, neck, and breast 
feathers (or he had a graduate student do it?).  With the feather tips removed 
 a pattern was revealed that was extremely similar to Red-naped.  So in 
essence, the control sequence was modified by adding instructions to squirt red 
into the feather tips, and once the tips were formed, to revert back to the 
ancestral pattern.  It would be easy to imagine an individual with a red 
pigment deficiency being mistaken for a hybrid. 


Bottom line:  I recommend being a bit conservative about calling birds that 
differ in minor ways from "typical" hybrids, unless they show hybrid influence 
in multiple features. 


If I wanted to continue bloviating, I would now bring up the "Blue-winged 
Warblers" living in areas where Golden-winged Warblers were recently displaced, 
but that can wait for another time. 


Wayne



On 12/14/2016 10:40:09 AM, Matt Brady  wrote:
Hello all. I just looked at the extensive Sphyrapichus collection we have
here at the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Most (about 340) are
Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, but we have a good series of Red-naped (about
100), and a small number of hybrids between the two species (about five). A
small percentage of the Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that I looked at had red
feathers on the nape. This varied from a single feather, to a slight
pinkish wash, to a small number of feathers in a distinct arc across the
nape. The most red that any of these birds had in the malar were a few
feathers (fewer than five), and there seemed to be a correlation between
red in the nape and red in the malar. The apparent hybrids had more red
across the nape, and had varying amounts of red in the malar. The bird
photographed by Logan and John would not have stuck out as being
significantly different when lined up against 100 Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers
collected in the eastern US. Definitely on the 'red' end of the spectrum,
but not clearly within the range of a hybrid.

My take on this bird is that it is mostly a Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. It
has just a touch of red in the nape, and a few red feathers in the malar.
The back pattern looks fine for a Yellow-bellied to me. If this is not a
pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is
what many of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of
the spectrum are.

Matt Brady
Baton Rouge, LA

On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, David Irons wrote:

> I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly show red on
> the nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If this is the
> same bird I would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA.
>
> Dave Irons
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris wrote:
> >
> > Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I cropped an
> image
> > that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe that the
> > perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the black border
> > depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though narrow
> > border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side, red
> > feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on my
> > checklist).
> > Thank you all for this interesting discussion
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
> > John Harris
> > Oakdale, CA
> >
> >> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where both
> >> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare. One
> expert
> >> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all thought, and
> if
> >> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Logan Kahle
> >>
> >> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
> >>
> >> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
> >>
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393 <>
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393>
> >>
> >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <>
> >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
> >>
> >>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >>
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 21:21:50 +0000
Thanks.

From: Matt Brady [mailto:podoces AT gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 1:20 PM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker

"Are there just too many specimens of YBSA from the E that show red for them 
all to be hybrids?" 


Nick, that's my impression. I've definitely seen a number of otherwise 
fine-looking YBSA here in Louisiana that have a touch of red to the nape. The 
specimens seem to back this up. Of course, being strictly a wintering species 
in Louisiana, it's hard to know where our wintering birds come from, and it's 
certainly possible that we get a small but substantial number of birds from the 
hybrid zone. 


Some of our older specimens with red in the nape do come from Tennessee, so if 
these birds are indeed of hybrid origin, then they winter rather east, and have 
been doing so since the mid 20th century. 


Matt

On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:59 PM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

Flipping this around, what is the evidence that a YB Sapsucker with some red in 
the nape isn't a hybrid? Are there just too many specimens of YBSA from the E 
that show red for them all to be hybrids? 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Matt Brady 

Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 12:56 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker

Chris, I mis-wrote: I should have said "If this is not a pure Yellow-bellied, 
then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what* I would guess* 
*some* of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of the 
spectrum are." I don't want to sound like I think that all 
Yellow-bellied-with-red-on-the-nape Sapsuckers are of hybrid origin, but I do 
think that it makes sense that many are. 


We do have two specimens of birds identified as hybrids from Louisiana here at 
LSUMNS, which is about as many records the LBRC has accepted of phenotypically 
pure Red-naped Sapsuckers. So yes, they do occur in the east, within the range 
of Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. 


Matt Brady
Baton Rouge LA


On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:08 PM Chris Corben 
> wrote: 


> A bit confused by this.
>
>
>
> You write: "If this is not a pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess
>
> it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what many of these Yellow-bellied
>
> Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of the spectrum are. "
>
>
>
> So are you saying that birds in the east with this much red are F2 or
> F3
>
> hybrids?
>
>
>
> Cheers, Chris.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/14/2016 12:29 PM, Matt Brady wrote:
>
> > Hello all. I just looked at the extensive Sphyrapichus collection we
> > have
>
> > here at the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Most (about 340) are
>
> > Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, but we have a good series of Red-naped
> > (about
>
> > 100), and a small number of hybrids between the two species (about
> five). A
>
> > small percentage of the Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that I looked at
> > had
> red
>
> > feathers on the nape. This varied from a single feather, to a slight
>
> > pinkish wash, to a small number of feathers in a distinct arc across
> > the
>
> > nape. The most red that any of these birds had in the malar were a
> > few
>
> > feathers (fewer than five), and there seemed to be a correlation
> > between
>
> > red in the nape and red in the malar. The apparent hybrids had more
> > red
>
> > across the nape, and had varying amounts of red in the malar. The
> > bird
>
> > photographed by Logan and John would not have stuck out as being
>
> > significantly different when lined up against 100 Yellow-bellied
> Sapsuckers
>
> > collected in the eastern US. Definitely on the 'red' end of the
> > spectrum,
>
> > but not clearly within the range of a hybrid.
>
> >
>
> > My take  on this bird is that it is mostly a Yellow-bellied
> > Sapsucker. It
>
> > has just a touch of red in the nape, and a few red feathers in the malar.
>
> > The back pattern looks fine for a Yellow-bellied to me. If this is
> > not a
>
> > pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid,
> > which is
>
> > what many of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red'
> > end of
>
> > the spectrum are.
>
> >
>
> > Matt Brady
>
> > Baton Rouge, LA
>
> >
>
> > On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, David Irons 
> wrote: 

>
> >
>
> >> I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly show
> >> red on
>
> >> the nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If this is
> >> the
>
> >> same bird I would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA.
>
> >>
>
> >> Dave Irons
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris 
> wrote: 

>
> >>>
>
> >>> Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I cropped
> >>> an
>
> >> image
>
> >>> that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe that
> >>> the
>
> >>> perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the black
> border
>
> >>> depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though
> >>> narrow
>
> >>> border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side,
> >>> red
>
> >>> feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on my
>
> >>> checklist).
>
> >>> Thank you all for this interesting discussion
>
> >>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
>
> >>> John Harris
>
> >>> Oakdale, CA
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle 
> 

> wrote:
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Hi All,
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where
> >>>> both
>
> >>>> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare.
> >>>> One
>
> >> expert
>
> >>>> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all
> >>>> thought, and
>
> >> if
>
> >>>> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Thanks!
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Logan Kahle
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245
> >>>> 393
> <
>
> >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245
> >>>> 393>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <
>
> >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> >>>>
>
> >>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> >>
>
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Chris Corben.
>
>
>
>
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Matt Brady <podoces AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:20:22 -0600
"Are there just too many specimens of YBSA from the E that show red for
them all to be hybrids?"

Nick, that's my impression. I've definitely seen a number of otherwise
fine-looking YBSA here in Louisiana that have a touch of red to the nape.
The specimens seem to back this up. Of course, being strictly a wintering
species in Louisiana, it's hard to know where our wintering birds come
from, and it's certainly possible that we get a small but substantial
number of birds from the hybrid zone.

Some of our older specimens with red in the nape do come from Tennessee, so
if these birds are indeed of hybrid origin, then they winter rather east,
and have been doing so since the mid 20th century.

Matt

On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:59 PM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:

> Flipping this around, what is the evidence that a YB Sapsucker with some
> red in the nape isn't a hybrid? Are there just too many specimens of YBSA
> from the E that show red for them all to be hybrids?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Matt Brady
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 12:56 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker
>
> Chris, I mis-wrote: I should have said "If this is not a pure
> Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what*
> I would guess* *some* of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the
> 'red' end of the spectrum are." I don't want to sound like I think that all
> Yellow-bellied-with-red-on-the-nape Sapsuckers are of hybrid origin, but
> I do think that it makes sense that many are.
>
> We do have two specimens of birds identified as hybrids from Louisiana
> here at LSUMNS, which is about as many records the LBRC has accepted of
> phenotypically pure Red-naped Sapsuckers. So yes, they do occur in the
> east, within the range of Yellow-bellied Sapsucker.
>
> Matt Brady
> Baton Rouge LA
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:08 PM Chris Corben 
> wrote:
>
> > A bit confused by this.
> >
> >
> >
> > You write: "If this is not a pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess
> >
> > it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what many of these Yellow-bellied
> >
> > Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of the spectrum are. "
> >
> >
> >
> > So are you saying that birds in the east with this much red are F2 or
> > F3
> >
> > hybrids?
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Chris.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 12/14/2016 12:29 PM, Matt Brady wrote:
> >
> > > Hello all. I just looked at the extensive Sphyrapichus collection we
> > > have
> >
> > > here at the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Most (about 340) are
> >
> > > Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, but we have a good series of Red-naped
> > > (about
> >
> > > 100), and a small number of hybrids between the two species (about
> > five). A
> >
> > > small percentage of the Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that I looked at
> > > had
> > red
> >
> > > feathers on the nape. This varied from a single feather, to a slight
> >
> > > pinkish wash, to a small number of feathers in a distinct arc across
> > > the
> >
> > > nape. The most red that any of these birds had in the malar were a
> > > few
> >
> > > feathers (fewer than five), and there seemed to be a correlation
> > > between
> >
> > > red in the nape and red in the malar. The apparent hybrids had more
> > > red
> >
> > > across the nape, and had varying amounts of red in the malar. The
> > > bird
> >
> > > photographed by Logan and John would not have stuck out as being
> >
> > > significantly different when lined up against 100 Yellow-bellied
> > Sapsuckers
> >
> > > collected in the eastern US. Definitely on the 'red' end of the
> > > spectrum,
> >
> > > but not clearly within the range of a hybrid.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > My take  on this bird is that it is mostly a Yellow-bellied
> > > Sapsucker. It
> >
> > > has just a touch of red in the nape, and a few red feathers in the
> malar.
> >
> > > The back pattern looks fine for a Yellow-bellied to me. If this is
> > > not a
> >
> > > pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid,
> > > which is
> >
> > > what many of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red'
> > > end of
> >
> > > the spectrum are.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Matt Brady
> >
> > > Baton Rouge, LA
> >
> > >
> >
> > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, David Irons 
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >> I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly show
> > >> red on
> >
> > >> the nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If this is
> > >> the
> >
> > >> same bird I would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >> Dave Irons
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >> Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>> On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris  wrote:
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>> Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I cropped
> > >>> an
> >
> > >> image
> >
> > >>> that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe that
> > >>> the
> >
> > >>> perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the black
> > border
> >
> > >>> depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though
> > >>> narrow
> >
> > >>> border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side,
> > >>> red
> >
> > >>> feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on my
> >
> > >>> checklist).
> >
> > >>> Thank you all for this interesting discussion
> >
> > >>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
> >
> > >>> John Harris
> >
> > >>> Oakdale, CA
> >
> > >>>
> >
> > >>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >>>>
> >
> > >>>> Hi All,
> >
> > >>>>
> >
> > >>>> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where
> > >>>> both
> >
> > >>>> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare.
> > >>>> One
> >
> > >> expert
> >
> > >>>> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all
> > >>>> thought, and
> >
> > >> if
> >
> > >>>> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
> >
> > >>>>
> >
> > >>>> Thanks!
> >
> > >>>>
> >
> > >>>> Logan Kahle
> >
> > >>>>
> >
> > >>>> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
> >
> > >>>>
> >
> > >>>> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
> >
> > >>>>
> >
> > >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245
> > >>>> 393
> > <
> >
> > >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245
> > >>>> 393>
> >
> > >>>>
> >
> > >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <
> >
> > >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
> >
> > >>>>
> >
> > >>>>
> >
> > >>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > >>>>
> >
> > >>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > >>
> >
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> > Chris Corben.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 20:59:49 +0000
Flipping this around, what is the evidence that a YB Sapsucker with some red in 
the nape isn't a hybrid? Are there just too many specimens of YBSA from the E 
that show red for them all to be hybrids? 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Matt Brady 

Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 12:56 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker

Chris, I mis-wrote: I should have said "If this is not a pure Yellow-bellied, 
then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what* I would guess* 
*some* of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of the 
spectrum are." I don't want to sound like I think that all 
Yellow-bellied-with-red-on-the-nape Sapsuckers are of hybrid origin, but I do 
think that it makes sense that many are. 


We do have two specimens of birds identified as hybrids from Louisiana here at 
LSUMNS, which is about as many records the LBRC has accepted of phenotypically 
pure Red-naped Sapsuckers. So yes, they do occur in the east, within the range 
of Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. 


Matt Brady
Baton Rouge LA


On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:08 PM Chris Corben  wrote:

> A bit confused by this.
>
>
>
> You write: "If this is not a pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess
>
> it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what many of these Yellow-bellied
>
> Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of the spectrum are. "
>
>
>
> So are you saying that birds in the east with this much red are F2 or 
> F3
>
> hybrids?
>
>
>
> Cheers, Chris.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/14/2016 12:29 PM, Matt Brady wrote:
>
> > Hello all. I just looked at the extensive Sphyrapichus collection we 
> > have
>
> > here at the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Most (about 340) are
>
> > Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, but we have a good series of Red-naped 
> > (about
>
> > 100), and a small number of hybrids between the two species (about
> five). A
>
> > small percentage of the Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that I looked at 
> > had
> red
>
> > feathers on the nape. This varied from a single feather, to a slight
>
> > pinkish wash, to a small number of feathers in a distinct arc across 
> > the
>
> > nape. The most red that any of these birds had in the malar were a 
> > few
>
> > feathers (fewer than five), and there seemed to be a correlation 
> > between
>
> > red in the nape and red in the malar. The apparent hybrids had more 
> > red
>
> > across the nape, and had varying amounts of red in the malar. The 
> > bird
>
> > photographed by Logan and John would not have stuck out as being
>
> > significantly different when lined up against 100 Yellow-bellied
> Sapsuckers
>
> > collected in the eastern US. Definitely on the 'red' end of the 
> > spectrum,
>
> > but not clearly within the range of a hybrid.
>
> >
>
> > My take  on this bird is that it is mostly a Yellow-bellied 
> > Sapsucker. It
>
> > has just a touch of red in the nape, and a few red feathers in the malar.
>
> > The back pattern looks fine for a Yellow-bellied to me. If this is 
> > not a
>
> > pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, 
> > which is
>
> > what many of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' 
> > end of
>
> > the spectrum are.
>
> >
>
> > Matt Brady
>
> > Baton Rouge, LA
>
> >
>
> > On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, David Irons  wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly show 
> >> red on
>
> >> the nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If this is 
> >> the
>
> >> same bird I would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA.
>
> >>
>
> >> Dave Irons
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris  wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I cropped 
> >>> an
>
> >> image
>
> >>> that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe that 
> >>> the
>
> >>> perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the black
> border
>
> >>> depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though 
> >>> narrow
>
> >>> border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side, 
> >>> red
>
> >>> feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on my
>
> >>> checklist).
>
> >>> Thank you all for this interesting discussion
>
> >>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
>
> >>> John Harris
>
> >>> Oakdale, CA
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle 
> wrote:
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Hi All,
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where 
> >>>> both
>
> >>>> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare. 
> >>>> One
>
> >> expert
>
> >>>> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all 
> >>>> thought, and
>
> >> if
>
> >>>> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Thanks!
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Logan Kahle
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245
> >>>> 393
> <
>
> >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245
> >>>> 393>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <
>
> >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> >>>>
>
> >>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> >>
>
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Chris Corben.
>
>
>
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Matt Brady <podoces AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 14:55:31 -0600
Chris, I mis-wrote: I should have said "If this is not a pure
Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what*
I would guess* *some* of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the
'red' end of the spectrum are." I don't want to sound like I think that all
Yellow-bellied-with-red-on-the-nape Sapsuckers are of hybrid origin, but I
do think that it makes sense that many are.

We do have two specimens of birds identified as hybrids from Louisiana here
at LSUMNS, which is about as many records the LBRC has accepted of
phenotypically pure Red-naped Sapsuckers. So yes, they do occur in the
east, within the range of Yellow-bellied Sapsucker.

Matt Brady
Baton Rouge LA


On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 2:08 PM Chris Corben  wrote:

> A bit confused by this.
>
>
>
> You write: "If this is not a pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess
>
> it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what many of these Yellow-bellied
>
> Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of the spectrum are. "
>
>
>
> So are you saying that birds in the east with this much red are F2 or F3
>
> hybrids?
>
>
>
> Cheers, Chris.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/14/2016 12:29 PM, Matt Brady wrote:
>
> > Hello all. I just looked at the extensive Sphyrapichus collection we have
>
> > here at the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Most (about 340) are
>
> > Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, but we have a good series of Red-naped (about
>
> > 100), and a small number of hybrids between the two species (about
> five). A
>
> > small percentage of the Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that I looked at had
> red
>
> > feathers on the nape. This varied from a single feather, to a slight
>
> > pinkish wash, to a small number of feathers in a distinct arc across the
>
> > nape. The most red that any of these birds had in the malar were a few
>
> > feathers (fewer than five), and there seemed to be a correlation between
>
> > red in the nape and red in the malar. The apparent hybrids had more red
>
> > across the nape, and had varying amounts of red in the malar. The bird
>
> > photographed by Logan and John would not have stuck out as being
>
> > significantly different when lined up against 100 Yellow-bellied
> Sapsuckers
>
> > collected in the eastern US. Definitely on the 'red' end of the spectrum,
>
> > but not clearly within the range of a hybrid.
>
> >
>
> > My take  on this bird is that it is mostly a Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. It
>
> > has just a touch of red in the nape, and a few red feathers in the malar.
>
> > The back pattern looks fine for a Yellow-bellied to me. If this is not a
>
> > pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is
>
> > what many of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of
>
> > the spectrum are.
>
> >
>
> > Matt Brady
>
> > Baton Rouge, LA
>
> >
>
> > On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, David Irons  wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly show red on
>
> >> the nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If this is the
>
> >> same bird I would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA.
>
> >>
>
> >> Dave Irons
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris  wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I cropped an
>
> >> image
>
> >>> that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe that the
>
> >>> perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the black
> border
>
> >>> depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though narrow
>
> >>> border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side, red
>
> >>> feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on my
>
> >>> checklist).
>
> >>> Thank you all for this interesting discussion
>
> >>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
>
> >>> John Harris
>
> >>> Oakdale, CA
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle 
> wrote:
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Hi All,
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where both
>
> >>>> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare. One
>
> >> expert
>
> >>>> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all thought, and
>
> >> if
>
> >>>> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Thanks!
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Logan Kahle
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393
> <
>
> >>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <
>
> >>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> >>>>
>
> >>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> >>
>
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Chris Corben.
>
>
>
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Chris Corben <cjcorben AT HOARYBAT.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 14:08:55 -0600
A bit confused by this.

You write: "If this is not a pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess 
it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is what many of these Yellow-bellied 
Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of the spectrum are. "

So are you saying that birds in the east with this much red are F2 or F3 
hybrids?

Cheers, Chris.



On 12/14/2016 12:29 PM, Matt Brady wrote:
> Hello all. I just looked at the extensive Sphyrapichus collection we have
> here at the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Most (about 340) are
> Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, but we have a good series of Red-naped (about
> 100), and a small number of hybrids between the two species (about five). A
> small percentage of the Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that I looked at had red
> feathers on the nape. This varied from a single feather, to a slight
> pinkish wash, to a small number of feathers in a distinct arc across the
> nape. The most red that any of these birds had in the malar were a few
> feathers (fewer than five), and there seemed to be a correlation between
> red in the nape and red in the malar. The apparent hybrids had more red
> across the nape, and had varying amounts of red in the malar. The bird
> photographed by Logan and John would not have stuck out as being
> significantly different when lined up against 100 Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers
> collected in the eastern US. Definitely on the 'red' end of the spectrum,
> but not clearly within the range of a hybrid.
>
> My take  on this bird is that it is mostly a Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. It
> has just a touch of red in the nape, and a few red feathers in the malar.
> The back pattern looks fine for a Yellow-bellied to me. If this is not a
> pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is
> what many of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of
> the spectrum are.
>
> Matt Brady
> Baton Rouge, LA
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, David Irons  wrote:
>
>> I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly show red on
>> the nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If this is the
>> same bird I would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA.
>>
>> Dave Irons
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris  wrote:
>>>
>>> Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I cropped an
>> image
>>> that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe that the
>>> perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the black border
>>> depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though narrow
>>> border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side, red
>>> feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on my
>>> checklist).
>>> Thank you all for this interesting discussion
>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
>>> John Harris
>>> Oakdale, CA
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where both
>>>> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare. One
>> expert
>>>> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all thought, and
>> if
>>>> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Logan Kahle
>>>>
>>>> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
>>>>
>>>> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393 <
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393>
>>>>
>>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <
>>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>>>>
>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>


-- 

Chris Corben.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Matt Brady <podoces AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 12:29:07 -0600
Hello all. I just looked at the extensive Sphyrapichus collection we have
here at the LSU Museum of Natural Science. Most (about 340) are
Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers, but we have a good series of Red-naped (about
100), and a small number of hybrids between the two species (about five). A
small percentage of the Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that I looked at had red
feathers on the nape. This varied from a single feather, to a slight
pinkish wash, to a small number of feathers in a distinct arc across the
nape. The most red that any of these birds had in the malar were a few
feathers (fewer than five), and there seemed to be a correlation between
red in the nape and red in the malar. The apparent hybrids had more red
across the nape, and had varying amounts of red in the malar. The bird
photographed by Logan and John would not have stuck out as being
significantly different when lined up against 100 Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers
collected in the eastern US. Definitely on the 'red' end of the spectrum,
but not clearly within the range of a hybrid.

My take  on this bird is that it is mostly a Yellow-bellied Sapsucker. It
has just a touch of red in the nape, and a few red feathers in the malar.
The back pattern looks fine for a Yellow-bellied to me. If this is not a
pure Yellow-bellied, then I would guess it's an F2 or F3 hybrid, which is
what many of these Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers that are on the 'red' end of
the spectrum are.

Matt Brady
Baton Rouge, LA

On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, David Irons  wrote:

> I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly show red on
> the nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If this is the
> same bird I would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA.
>
> Dave Irons
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris  wrote:
> >
> > Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I cropped an
> image
> > that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe that the
> > perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the black border
> > depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though narrow
> > border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side, red
> > feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on my
> > checklist).
> > Thank you all for this interesting discussion
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
> > John Harris
> > Oakdale, CA
> >
> >> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where both
> >> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare. One
> expert
> >> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all thought, and
> if
> >> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Logan Kahle
> >>
> >> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
> >>
> >> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
> >>
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393 <
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393>
> >>
> >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <
> >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
> >>
> >>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >>
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 16:37:03 +0000
I hadn't John Harris's photos until just now. These clearly show red on the 
nape that is not readily apparent in Logan's photos. If this is the same bird I 
would agree that it appears to be a hybrid YBSA X RNSA. 


Dave Irons


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 14, 2016, at 5:54 AM, John Harris  wrote:
> 
> Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I cropped an image
> that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe that the
> perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the black border
> depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though narrow
> border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side, red
> feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on my
> checklist).
> Thank you all for this interesting discussion
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
> John Harris
> Oakdale, CA
> 
>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where both
>> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare. One expert
>> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all thought, and if
>> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Logan Kahle
>> 
>> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
>> 
>> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
>> 
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393 <
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393>
>> 
>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <
>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
>> 
>> 
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: John Harris <johnh AT MILLS.EDU>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 05:44:10 -0800
Here is my ebird checklist with photos of the same bird. I cropped an image
that shows a very small amount of red on the nape. I believe that the
perception of whether or not the red throat bleeds over the black border
depends on posture. Some of my photos show a complete, though narrow
border, but when the bird's head is turned sharply to the side, red
feathers of the throat slide over that border (see top photo on my
checklist).
Thank you all for this interesting discussion
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32946056
John Harris
Oakdale, CA

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Logan Kahle  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where both
> Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare. One expert
> opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all thought, and if
> this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Logan Kahle
>
> Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
>
> Photos of the bird can be seen here:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393 <
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393>
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 <
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Jason Rogers <hawkowl AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 09:52:46 +0000
I live in the Yellow-bellied/Red-naped hybrid zone, and I'd say it definitely 
has some Red-naped in it if it isn't a pure Red-naped. There's a bit of red on 
the nape for sure, possibly made less obvious due to the bird being in fresh 
plumage. In a couple of the photos, the red throat "bleeds" substantially onto 
the malar. And there are two distinct light columns on the mantle. As for the 
buff/gold colour, this is normal for some individuals of both Red-naped and 
Yellow-bellied. 



Jason Rogers

Calgary, AB



________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Logan Kahle  

Sent: December 14, 2016 12:33 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker

Hi All,

This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where both
Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare. One
expert opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all
thought, and if this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.

Thanks!

Logan Kahle

Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA

Photos of the bird can be seen here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan AT CCSF.EDU>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 00:33:17 -0800
All,

My understanding is this is being proposed as a hybrid Red-naped X
Yellow-bellied. 

Here is the hybrid score sheet they use for Project Sapsucker in Alberta...


http://www.royalalbertamuseum.ca/_includes/docs/research/lifeSciences/ornithology/score_sheet.pdf 


However, there is an arbitrariness inherent in any hybrid scoring index. In
most cases the actual parents of presumed hybrids are not known and
assumption of hybridization is based on one or more "off" characters.  In
many cases we do not know the extent of individual variation within a given
species. 

From what I can see in the photos, I agree it looks like it is mostly if
not entirely a Yellow-bellied Sapsucker.  Besides the lack of an obvious
red nape (some observers claim to see faint red), and the black completely
framing the red throat (one observer disputes that), another point possibly
favoring Yellow-bellied is the brownish wash to the pale spangling on the
mantle.  I think that's usually white on Red-naped. 

This paper 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jav.00946/abstract

has an interesting color plate showing hybrid sapsuckers where the
hybridization was confirmed by genetics.  Unfortunately Red-naped X
Yellow-bellied is not illustrated. 




On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 07:12:54 +0000, David Irons  wrote:

>Hybrid between which two species? I don't see anything that suggests this is a 
Red-breasted X Red-naped and the absence of even so much as a red-tipped 
feather on the nape makes me wonder if there is any Red-naped parentage here. 
This appears to be a "pure" Yellow-bellied to me. 

>
>
>Dave Irons
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Logan Kahle  

>Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 12:33 AM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker
>
>Hi All,
>
>This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where both
>Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare. One
>expert opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all
>thought, and if this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Logan Kahle
>
>Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA
>
>Photos of the bird can be seen here:
>
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393
>
>
>http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341
>
>
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
-- 
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA
"It turns out we're very good at not seeing things" - Jack Hitt

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Sapsucker
From: David Irons <LLSDIRONS AT MSN.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 07:12:54 +0000
Hybrid between which two species? I don't see anything that suggests this is a 
Red-breasted X Red-naped and the absence of even so much as a red-tipped 
feather on the nape makes me wonder if there is any Red-naped parentage here. 
This appears to be a "pure" Yellow-bellied to me. 



Dave Irons



________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Logan Kahle  

Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 12:33 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Sapsucker

Hi All,

This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where both
Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare. One
expert opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all
thought, and if this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.

Thanks!

Logan Kahle

Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA

Photos of the bird can be seen here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Sapsucker
From: Logan Kahle <logan AT ARCHIVE.ORG>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:33:11 -0500
Hi All,

This Sapsucker showed up over a month ago in Martinez, CA, where both 
Red-naped and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers are about equally rare. One 
expert opinion has been for hybrid. I was wondering what you all 
thought, and if this bird was indeed consistent with hybrid.

Thanks!

Logan Kahle

Ithaca, NY/San Francisco, CA

Photos of the bird can be seen here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/115418990 AT N03/albums/72157673454245393 


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32992341 



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Audouin's Gull in Trinidad - corrected link
From: James P Smith <keenbirder AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 12:04:42 -0500
Greetings birders,

I apologize for the mess surrounding the above mentioned link yesterday. I
received enough queries overnight to justify correcting the link and
adjusting the page accordingly.

This page should work;
http://pioneerbirding.blogspot.com/2016/12/trinidad-audouins-gull.html


If not, it's also on the home page;
http://pioneerbirding.blogspot.com/

Gracious thanks to Nigel for the use of his fine images and to Martyn
Kenefick for drawing my attention to Nigel's remarkable find - amazing
record!

Best birding,

James

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Subject: Re: Unidentified gull resembling Audouin's in Trinidad - Dec 10th, 2016
From: James P Smith <keenbirder AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 22:22:56 -0500
Apologies folks. I was unaware that the images had already been circulated
on FB and that the id had been confirmed.

Best birding,

James



On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 9:56 PM, Amar Ayyash  wrote:

> All, this 1st cycle individual has been confirmed as an Audouin's Gull via
> North American Gulls and Western Palearctic Gulls on Facebook. It would be
> a 1st New World record!! Congrats to Nigel.
>
> Regards,
> Amar Ayyash
> Orland Park Illinois, USA
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 12, 2016, at 8:34 PM, James P Smith  wrote:
> >
> > Greetings birders,
> >
> > Martyn Kenefick asked me to take a look at some images of a fascinating
> > gull from the West Coast of Trinidad taken on Dec 10th. The bird was
> found
> > and photographed by Martyn's friend Nigel Lallsingh and appears to have a
> > strong resemblance to a first-cycle Audouin's Gull. It was seen in direct
> > comparison to a Lesser Black-backed Gull and considered to be slightly
> > smaller.
> >
> > Four images of the bird can be seen here;
> > http://pioneerbirding.blogspot.com/2016/12/trinidad-
> is-this-audouins-gull.html
> >
> > Naturally the odds would favor a hybrid, but we find the images
> compelling.
> > Can Audouin's be ruled out in a satisfactory manner?
> >
> >
> > Looking forward to your thoughts,
> >
> >
> >
> > James
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Unidentified gull resembling Audouin's in Trinidad - Dec 10th, 2016
From: Amar Ayyash <amarayyash AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 20:56:55 -0600
All, this 1st cycle individual has been confirmed as an Audouin's Gull via 
North American Gulls and Western Palearctic Gulls on Facebook. It would be a 
1st New World record!! Congrats to Nigel. 


Regards,
Amar Ayyash
Orland Park Illinois, USA

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 12, 2016, at 8:34 PM, James P Smith  wrote:
> 
> Greetings birders,
> 
> Martyn Kenefick asked me to take a look at some images of a fascinating
> gull from the West Coast of Trinidad taken on Dec 10th. The bird was found
> and photographed by Martyn's friend Nigel Lallsingh and appears to have a
> strong resemblance to a first-cycle Audouin's Gull. It was seen in direct
> comparison to a Lesser Black-backed Gull and considered to be slightly
> smaller.
> 
> Four images of the bird can be seen here;
> 
http://pioneerbirding.blogspot.com/2016/12/trinidad-is-this-audouins-gull.html 

> 
> Naturally the odds would favor a hybrid, but we find the images compelling.
> Can Audouin's be ruled out in a satisfactory manner?
> 
> 
> Looking forward to your thoughts,
> 
> 
> 
> James
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Unidentified gull resembling Audouin's in Trinidad - Dec 10th, 2016
From: James P Smith <keenbirder AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 21:34:16 -0500
Greetings birders,

Martyn Kenefick asked me to take a look at some images of a fascinating
gull from the West Coast of Trinidad taken on Dec 10th. The bird was found
and photographed by Martyn's friend Nigel Lallsingh and appears to have a
strong resemblance to a first-cycle Audouin's Gull. It was seen in direct
comparison to a Lesser Black-backed Gull and considered to be slightly
smaller.

Four images of the bird can be seen here;
http://pioneerbirding.blogspot.com/2016/12/trinidad-is-this-audouins-gull.html

Naturally the odds would favor a hybrid, but we find the images compelling.
Can Audouin's be ruled out in a satisfactory manner?


Looking forward to your thoughts,



James

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Fw: Possible "Kamchatka" Mew Gull - Oregon coast
From: Russ Namitz <namitzr AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 06:02:12 +0000
Hi folks~


I photographed a possible "Kamchatka" Mew Gull at the St Helens (Oregon) sewage 
ponds. What caught my attention was the longer bill and pale eye on this bird. 
The blurry photograph shows the outer two primaries (p10 & p9) with large white 
mirrors, but next one (p8) is mostly black which is a good characteristic for 
this east Asian subspecies. The only thing that bothers me is the amount of 
streaking around the head/neck/shoulders and the fact that it is not as 
extensive or coarse as I would like to see. 



Photos are in my eBird checklist.

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S32746917


Comments welcome.


Good birding,

Russ Namitz

Medford, OR

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Subject: Basic adult Double-crested Cormorants -- a question
From: Brian Sullivan <heraldpetrel AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:45:47 -0800
Hi All,

I've been looking at cormorants pretty carefully the past bunch of years,
and I'm wondering about adult basic Double-crested Cormorant plumages. I
have been unable to find any that are truly glossy black-necked in fall.
When I look at a bunch of cormorants this time of year, the adults have
blackish necks that lack gloss, and many even show brownish-black necks at
this time of year. Looking at molt sequences in the wings, these are not
2nd-winter birds--and there are too many for that solution to make sense.
Are others seeing glossy black-necked adults at this time of year (outside
of Florida)? I'm wondering if the prealternate molt on adults includes the
entire head and neck, as I don't see how these birds would get back to the
glossy breeding state without this process. Ideas welcome, and especially
evidence of glossy black-necked basic birds at this time of year!

Thanks

Brian

-- 
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Basic adult Double-crested Cormorants -- a question
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 22:20:16 +0000
FWIW, my impression is that Temminck's (Japanese) Cormorants also molt the head 
and neck in winter as they acquire a much more extensive white throat. I 
initially thought the extensive white on the throat was a sign of immature 
birds but pretty much all birds seemed to show it in winter. I can't comment if 
the molt is just confined to the head and neck or more extensive. 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Tony Leukering 

Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 1:15 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Basic adult Double-crested Cormorants -- a question

All:


At Richard Crossley's suggestion a number of years ago, I have been paying more 
attention to winter-season Double-crests. He wondered as Brian did, because he 
could find no dark-necked birds at that season. Granted, spring for DCCOs comes 
quite early, with migrants on the move in February and with breeding adults 
here in Florida on nests by Feb, but in the period Nov-Dec, I, too, have not 
been able to find dark-necked DCCOs outside of a few non-glossy, dark-necked 
birds in Monterey last year. I have looked in Cape May, Florida, and Texas. I 
think that this subject deserves some focused effort. 



Tony


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL
http://cowyebird.blogspot.com/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/



-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Sullivan 
To: BIRDWG01 
Sent: Tue, Nov 29, 2016 3:46 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Basic adult Double-crested Cormorants -- a question

Hi All,

I've been looking at cormorants pretty carefully the past bunch of years, and 
I'm wondering about adult basic Double-crested Cormorant plumages. I have been 
unable to find any that are truly glossy black-necked in fall. 

When I look at a bunch of cormorants this time of year, the adults have 
blackish necks that lack gloss, and many even show brownish-black necks at this 
time of year. Looking at molt sequences in the wings, these are not 2nd-winter 
birds--and there are too many for that solution to make sense. 

Are others seeing glossy black-necked adults at this time of year (outside of 
Florida)? I'm wondering if the prealternate molt on adults includes the entire 
head and neck, as I don't see how these birds would get back to the glossy 
breeding state without this process. Ideas welcome, and especially evidence of 
glossy black-necked basic birds at this time of year! 


Thanks

Brian

--
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


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Subject: Re: New dowitcher ID
From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd57 AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 11:19:36 +0000
Brendan Fogarty writes:


> Hi everyone,
>
> I am continually studying the little dowitcher flock at Cow

> Meadow, Long Island NY. Since my last post I have a new camera


The Featured Photo in the October 2016 issue of Birding magazine highlights a 
dowitcher ID mark that is perhaps under-appreciated and under-utilized: 


http://blog.aba.org/2016/10/photo-quiz-october-2016-birding.html



Ted Floyd

Boulder County, Colorado, USA



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