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Updated on Saturday, September 24 at 08:47 AM EST
The most recently received Mail is at the top.


Short-eared Owl

24 Sep Eurasian Sparrowhawk - more details [Franklin Haas ]
23 Sep Re: Empidonax no2 [Jason Rogers ]
23 Sep Eastern Phoebe vs. Western Wood-Pewee [Douglas Faulder ]
23 Sep Re: Adak Goahawk - correction! [Killian Mullarney ]
23 Sep Re: Adak Goahawk - correction! [Glenn d'Entremont ]
22 Sep Re: Adak Goahawk - correction! [Phil Davis ]
22 Sep Re: Adak Goahawk - correction! [Peter Pyle ]
22 Sep Re: Adak Goahawk - correction! [Franklin Haas ]
22 Sep Re: Northern Goshawk ID (subspecies) [Peter Pyle ]
22 Sep Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Northern Goshawk ID (subspecies) [The HH75 ]
22 Sep Re: Northern Goshawk ID (subspecies) [The HH75 ]
21 Sep Northern Goshawk ID (subspecies) [Franklin Haas ]
21 Sep Re: Dowitcher ID []
18 Sep Re: Cory's/Scopoli's Shearwater, Georgia, USA 26 August 2007 [The HH75 ]
18 Sep Re: Fall warbler in California [David Irons ]
17 Sep Re: Fall warbler in California [Jeff Gilligan ]
17 Sep Fall warbler in California [Noah Arthur ]
15 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif [michael ]
15 Sep Re: Mystery Empidonax ["justin.bosler" ]
15 Sep Cory's/Scopoli's Shearwater, Georgia, USA 26 August 2007 [Ken Blankenship ]
15 Sep Re: Empidonax no2 ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
15 Sep Empidonax no2 [Michael Park ]
15 Sep Re: Mystery Empidonax [Ian McLaren ]
15 Sep Re: Mystery Empidonax [Jason Rogers ]
15 Sep Mystery Empidonax again [Michael Park ]
15 Sep Mystery Empidonax [Michael Park ]
14 Sep Archilochus sp central Kansas [Joseph Miller ]
14 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif [David Irons ]
14 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif [Peter Pyle ]
14 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif [Joseph Morlan ]
14 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
14 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif [Steve Hampton ]
14 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
14 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif [Steve Hampton ]
13 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif [John Sterling ]
13 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
13 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif [Noah Arthur ]
13 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif [David Irons ]
13 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif [Giff Beaton ]
13 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
14 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif [Andrew Haffenden ]
13 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif []
13 Sep Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif [julian hough ]
13 Sep Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif [Steve Hampton ]
9 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
6 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? []
3 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
3 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? []
2 Sep Re: UNSUBSCRIBE [Mike Feighner ]
2 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? [Michael O'Keeffe ]
2 Sep UNSUBSCRIBE [Pierre Deviche ]
2 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? [julian hough ]
1 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? [Jamie Chavez ]
1 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
1 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
1 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? []
1 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? [julian hough ]
1 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? [Alvaro Jaramillo ]
1 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? [julian hough ]
1 Sep Re: Western or Semipalmated? ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
31 Aug Re: Western or Semipalmated? [Louis Bevier ]
31 Aug empidonax puzzle [Lisa Hug ]
31 Aug Re: Western or Semipalmated? []
29 Aug Western or Semipalmated? ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
1 Aug the tanager ( this link should work.) [Jeff Gilligan ]
1 Aug 608-16-07 Scarlet Tanager - Google Drive (I was told link didn't work) Here is one photo. [Jeff Gilligan ]
1 Aug Scarlet Tanager ? Oregon [Jeff Gilligan ]
21 Jul Re: I.d. of owl carcass? [Peter Wilkinson ]
20 Jul I.d. of owl carcass? [Don Roberson ]
20 Jul Re: Empid question [Jeff Gilligan ]
20 Jul Re: Empid question [Steve Hampton ]
20 Jul Empid question ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
19 Jul Re: empid ["Lethaby, Nick" ]
12 Jul Re: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA [Steve Hampton ]
12 Jul Re: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA [Martin Reid ]
11 Jul Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA [Steve Hampton ]

Subject: Eurasian Sparrowhawk - more details
From: Franklin Haas <fhaasbirds AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2016 09:43:11 -0400
The important details are at

http://franklinhaas.com/EUSP/EUSP.html

How we got to this identification (and how I screwed it up at first) is as
follows.

When we first encountered this bird, I got it in my scope and said to
myself “It is a small accipiter.”

I grabbed the camera and took 6 distant photos (the two best on the link
above). As soon as we inched the truck closer, the bird flew away, quickly
disappearing over the hilltop. I got no other photos.

We searched the rest of the day, and Thursday morning, to no avail.

As we were looking for the bird, I reviewed the photos in the camera and
saw what looked like a Goshawk. We grabbed the field guide we had on hand
(Birds of East Asia - Mark Brazil) and turned to the accipiter pages.
Nothing on the first page matched what we saw. The second page had Eurasian
Sparrowhawk and Northern Goshawk. Unfortunately, the illustration of the
female sparrowhawk does not do it justice and the head pattern is very
muted.

So I allowed one half of my brain (the plumage-driven Goshawk side) to
overrule the other side (the small accipiter side) and assumed my
size-perception was off and went with Goshawk. Even so, I was bothered by
the white markings on the back. I have seen thousands of Sharp-shinned and
Cooper’s hawks and hundreds of Northern Goshawks in my birding career (I
was a hawkwatcher and counter at Hawk Mountain in my early birding days),
and have see many Sharpies and Coops with those kinds of markings on the
back, but never a Goshawk. They may occur on Goshawks, but I just never ran
into them. That led to my IDFrontiers post asking which subspecies this was
and what the back-markings meant.

That was Wednesday night.

Thursday morning, I was greeted with several suggestions from IDFrontiers
contributors to reconsider Eurasian Sparrowhawk. I looked again at the
field guide and then went online to look for photos. The third image I
found matched our bird exactly! I now realized I should have stuck with my
initial size estimate! So I changed the ID to sparrowhawk.

Subsequent posts by IDFrontiers contributors have solidified that decision.

Responding to an excellent suggestion from John Puschock (who had a
Eurasian Sparrowhawk on Adak a few years ago – but didn’t get identifiable
photos), on Thursday morning, I climbed up the hill where we had seen the
bird and took photos of the branch it was sitting on with a 12-inch ruler
attached to provide scale (What the bird was doing with a 12-inch ruler, I
will never know...).

Those photos are on the link above and confirm the size of the bird.

We had been traveling home since Thursday afternoon, arriving last night,
so that is why we have been quiet on this post until now.

So there you have it. A first confirmed North American record.

Frank & Barb Haas

-- 
Frank Haas

Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Empidonax no2
From: Jason Rogers <hawkowl AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 18:40:41 +0000
Same bird as Empid no1, no?

Jason Rogers
Calgary, AB


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Michael Park  

Sent: September 15, 2016 4:24 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Empidonax no2

Two images taken in the shade of an Empid. that I would like some comment on. 
Thanks in advance! 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/74757345 AT N02/albums/72157673813717466

Michael Park

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Eastern Phoebe vs. Western Wood-Pewee
From: Douglas Faulder <dfaulder AT MSN.COM>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 17:51:26 +0000
This bird was seen in Edmonton Alberta on August 29 and 30th. The yellow 
mandible complicates the ID as Eastern Phoebe. Photos on eBird checklists 
S31323010, S31323042, S31329293 and S31337065. 



or go to the eBird hotspot visit list 
http://ebird.org/ebird/canada/hotspot/L795636/activity?yr=all&m= 



All opinions appreciated.


Thank you, Doug Faulder


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Adak Goahawk - correction!
From: Killian Mullarney <ktmullarney AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 16:51:06 +0100
Having proposed (in a brief message to my friend Harry Hussey) that the
'Adak Goshawk' was actually a  Eurasian Sparrowhawk, I felt it would be
helpful to hear the view of Finnish raptor expert Dick Forsman on the bird
in question. Here it is:

"Hi Killian,

Proves to be a most interesting case!

It is clearly a Sparrowhawk, no doubt, but has a bit of an odd look at
first glance: rather pale, very strong and broad supercilium and foremost,
no barring to uppertail, latter being a good separating character between
our Spars (always barred) and ad Gos (many with plain central uppertail).
However, the migrant Siberian subspecies *nisosimilis*, which of course
would be the most likely in this case, fits the Alaskan bird perfectly! I
found several examples of this form in the Japanese handbook on raptors by
Morioka et al.: pale grey above, strong supercilium and more or less plain
folded uppertail, a perfect match to the bird in question!

Appears that the Americans have got their first real Eurasian Sparrowhawk!
Congrats to whoever made the photographs.

best,
Dick   "

I don't have a copy of the Japanese handbook mentioned by Dick, but a
google search using the Japanese name for Eurasian Sparrowhawk  ハイタカ
produces some interesting examples, a few of which can be seen at the
following links:

http://www.daidou.net/idobata/animal/p032-0084-c.html

http://www.tajima.or.jp/modules/nature/details.php?bid=403

http://samaraw.com/fieldscope/photo/haitaka-D20_1633.jpg


Regards,

Killian


On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 3:06 AM, Glenn d'Entremont  wrote:

> Pardon my ignorance.  I can not locate online images which show the broad
> white eye line like goshawk on Eurasian Sparrowhawk; which has to be a
> female per the references.  If someone would point me in another direction
> I would appreciate it.  It does appear the bottom image has a reddish cast
> to the chin/throat.  But the reddish underparts seem to be a feature of
> males.
>
> Many thanks and sorry for the intrusion.
>
> Glenn
>
> Glenn d'Entremont:  gdentremont1 AT comcast.net  Stoughton, MA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Franklin Haas" 
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 12:57:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Adak Goahawk - correction!
>
> It looks like we blew this one.
>
> The bird is a female Eurasian Sparrowhawk (still a great bird on Adak).
>
> Unfortunately, the field guide we have out here does not have a very good
> illustration of the female E. sparrowhawk (it doesn't show the bold facial
> pattern), so we jumped right to Goshawk.
>
> Thanks for pointing out the error of our ways...
>
> Frank & Barb
>
>
> --
> Frank Haas
>
> Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing.
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Adak Goahawk - correction!
From: Glenn d'Entremont <gdentremont1 AT COMCAST.NET>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 02:06:43 +0000
Pardon my ignorance. I can not locate online images which show the broad white 
eye line like goshawk on Eurasian Sparrowhawk; which has to be a female per the 
references. If someone would point me in another direction I would appreciate 
it. It does appear the bottom image has a reddish cast to the chin/throat. But 
the reddish underparts seem to be a feature of males. 


Many thanks and sorry for the intrusion.

Glenn

Glenn d'Entremont:  gdentremont1 AT comcast.net  Stoughton, MA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Franklin Haas" 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 12:57:51 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Adak Goahawk - correction!

It looks like we blew this one.

The bird is a female Eurasian Sparrowhawk (still a great bird on Adak).

Unfortunately, the field guide we have out here does not have a very good
illustration of the female E. sparrowhawk (it doesn't show the bold facial
pattern), so we jumped right to Goshawk.

Thanks for pointing out the error of our ways...

Frank & Barb


-- 
Frank Haas

Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Adak Goahawk - correction!
From: Phil Davis <pdavis AT IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:12:26 -0400
Hi Frank and Barb:

Great bird, indeed!

I think this would be the first documented record for North America. 
We had one at Attu in Fall 2000, but we failed to get a photo of it 
(despite great views!) so no first accepted record for NA.

Excellent!

Phil


At 12:57 PM 09/22/2016, Franklin Haas wrote:

>The bird is a female Eurasian Sparrowhawk (still a great bird on Adak).

==================================
Phil Davis      Davidsonville, Maryland     USA
                 mailto:PDavis AT ix.netcom.com
================================== 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Adak Goahawk - correction!
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 10:48:56 -0700
I'm often more interested in age than species determination!  At 
least my earlier comments on age can be applied to both Northern 
Goshawk and Eurasian Sparrowhawk.

Best, Peter

At 09:57 AM 9/22/2016, Franklin Haas wrote:
>It looks like we blew this one.
>
>The bird is a female Eurasian Sparrowhawk (still a great bird on Adak).
>
>Unfortunately, the field guide we have out here does not have a very good
>illustration of the female E. sparrowhawk (it doesn't show the bold facial
>pattern), so we jumped right to Goshawk.
>
>Thanks for pointing out the error of our ways...
>
>Frank & Barb
>
>
>--
>Frank Haas
>
>Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing.
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Adak Goahawk - correction!
From: Franklin Haas <fhaasbirds AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 07:57:51 -0900
It looks like we blew this one.

The bird is a female Eurasian Sparrowhawk (still a great bird on Adak).

Unfortunately, the field guide we have out here does not have a very good
illustration of the female E. sparrowhawk (it doesn't show the bold facial
pattern), so we jumped right to Goshawk.

Thanks for pointing out the error of our ways...

Frank & Barb


-- 
Frank Haas

Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Northern Goshawk ID (subspecies)
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 09:19:26 -0700
Hi Frank -

This is an adult Northern Goshawk of at least 1+ years of age (AHY in 
American banding terminology) due to body plumage, gray flight 
feathers, rectrix shape and pattern, etc. You can also make out molt 
clines in the secondaries, indicating that it has undergone a 
complete molt of this tract. There is a possibility that this can be 
confirmed as an older bird, at least 2+ years old (ASY) as I believe 
most second-cycle birds (SYs) will still be in molt at this time of 
year and/or will show one or more retained juvenile secondaries in 
the visible panel on the wing (typically among s7-s9, which are all 
visible). Perhaps someone working with goshawks can weigh in on this.

North American Northern Goshawks typically will show an orange cast 
to the eyes by 1+ years (SY) and virtually all ASYs should show 
yellow-orange to red eyes, so if ASY can be confirmed it could help 
the case for a Eurasian subspecies.

Peter


At 09:28 PM 9/21/2016, Franklin Haas wrote:
>We found a Northern Goshawk on Adak, AK today. This is in the middle of the
>Aleutians.
>
>Photos can be seen here:  http://www.franklinhaas.com/gos/goshawk.html
>
>The wind has been blowing 20-30 mph from the west for the past three days,
>so we presume this is an Asian subspecies.
>
>We believe it is *schvedowi*, as it is too light to be *fujiyamae *and too
>dark to be *albidus*.
>
>However, to be conscientious, is there a way to tell *schvedowi *from
>
>*atricapillus (the NA race)?*
>I know adult *atricapillus *should have red eyes and *schvedowi* yellow,
>but is this a full adult?
>
>Do the white feather-edgings on the back give any indication of age or molt?
>
>Note: There are only two recognized records of Northern Goshawk in the
>Aleutians, both from Shemya. One was *albidus*, the other unknown.
>
>Frank Haas
>
>--
>Frank Haas
>
>Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing.
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Northern Goshawk ID (subspecies)
From: The HH75 <hhussey3 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 08:10:49 +0100
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "The HH75" 
Date: 22 Sep 2016 08:09
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Northern Goshawk ID (subspecies)
To: "KILLIAN MULLARNEY" 
Cc:

Hi Killian,
     I was torn on that matter, mainly due to the hint of colour on the
throat, but somehow assumed the original poster had excluded Eurasian
Sparrowhawk in the field. Given the scrambled nature of getting images,
however, as outlined by Frank, it's quite possible that he hadn't? It does
give the air of, perhaps, being a female Eurasian Sparrowhawk in these
images.
    I ought not to post on here before my mind has caught up with my body
and fully woken!
             Regards,
                    Harry
On 22 Sep 2016 07:44, "Killian Mullarney"  wrote:

> Hi Harry,
>
> Before getting involved in discussion of Goshawk subspecies (which I know
> is a subject you have looked into), can we be sure this is not actually a
> Sparrowhawk? The proportions of the head and bill are more suggestive of
> Sparrowhawk to my eyes, I don't recall having ever seen an image of an
> adult Goshawk with those obvious light spots on the scapulars, and there
> appears to be a hint of colour on the throat...
>
> If it had been photographed in Ireland I'd have a hard job believing it
> was a Goshawk!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Killian
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:05 AM, The HH75  wrote:
>
>> Hi Frank,
>>      Are there any shots showing the underparts? The scapulars seem paler
>> with less obvious shaft streaks than on many atricapillus, but the
>> underparts markings could tip the balance one way or another.
>>                     Regards,
>>                           Harry
>> On 22 Sep 2016 05:29, "Franklin Haas"  wrote:
>>
>> > We found a Northern Goshawk on Adak, AK today. This is in the middle of
>> the
>> > Aleutians.
>> >
>> > Photos can be seen here:  http://www.franklinhaas.com/gos/goshawk.html
>> >
>> > The wind has been blowing 20-30 mph from the west for the past three
>> days,
>> > so we presume this is an Asian subspecies.
>> >
>> > We believe it is *schvedowi*, as it is too light to be *fujiyamae *and
>> too
>> > dark to be *albidus*.
>> >
>> > However, to be conscientious, is there a way to tell *schvedowi *from
>> >
>> > *atricapillus (the NA race)?*
>> > I know adult *atricapillus *should have red eyes and *schvedowi* yellow,
>> > but is this a full adult?
>> >
>> > Do the white feather-edgings on the back give any indication of age or
>> > molt?
>> >
>> > Note: There are only two recognized records of Northern Goshawk in the
>> > Aleutians, both from Shemya. One was *albidus*, the other unknown.
>> >
>> > Frank Haas
>> >
>> > --
>> > Frank Haas
>> >
>> > Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing.
>> >
>> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> >
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>>
>
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Northern Goshawk ID (subspecies)
From: The HH75 <hhussey3 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 07:05:18 +0100
Hi Frank,
     Are there any shots showing the underparts? The scapulars seem paler
with less obvious shaft streaks than on many atricapillus, but the
underparts markings could tip the balance one way or another.
                    Regards,
                          Harry
On 22 Sep 2016 05:29, "Franklin Haas"  wrote:

> We found a Northern Goshawk on Adak, AK today. This is in the middle of the
> Aleutians.
>
> Photos can be seen here:  http://www.franklinhaas.com/gos/goshawk.html
>
> The wind has been blowing 20-30 mph from the west for the past three days,
> so we presume this is an Asian subspecies.
>
> We believe it is *schvedowi*, as it is too light to be *fujiyamae *and too
> dark to be *albidus*.
>
> However, to be conscientious, is there a way to tell *schvedowi *from
>
> *atricapillus (the NA race)?*
> I know adult *atricapillus *should have red eyes and *schvedowi* yellow,
> but is this a full adult?
>
> Do the white feather-edgings on the back give any indication of age or
> molt?
>
> Note: There are only two recognized records of Northern Goshawk in the
> Aleutians, both from Shemya. One was *albidus*, the other unknown.
>
> Frank Haas
>
> --
> Frank Haas
>
> Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing.
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Northern Goshawk ID (subspecies)
From: Franklin Haas <fhaasbirds AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 19:28:19 -0900
We found a Northern Goshawk on Adak, AK today. This is in the middle of the
Aleutians.

Photos can be seen here:  http://www.franklinhaas.com/gos/goshawk.html

The wind has been blowing 20-30 mph from the west for the past three days,
so we presume this is an Asian subspecies.

We believe it is *schvedowi*, as it is too light to be *fujiyamae *and too
dark to be *albidus*.

However, to be conscientious, is there a way to tell *schvedowi *from

*atricapillus (the NA race)?*
I know adult *atricapillus *should have red eyes and *schvedowi* yellow,
but is this a full adult?

Do the white feather-edgings on the back give any indication of age or molt?

Note: There are only two recognized records of Northern Goshawk in the
Aleutians, both from Shemya. One was *albidus*, the other unknown.

Frank Haas

-- 
Frank Haas

Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Dowitcher ID
From: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 20:59:56 +0000
Brendan and all: interesting dowitcher for the points you mentioned. Physically 
it seems to have much of the structural features of a Long-billed (larger size, 
long bill with slight downward arch in outer 1/3rd of bill, and more rounded 
body shape), and the plumage also is close to LBDO with wing coverts appearing 
mostly unmarked and thinly pale edged and a orange-pink blush to the upper 
chest, but a few things are not consistent with LBDO at all. The most obvious 
are the very strongly marked tertials, which is fully inconsistent with LBDO, 
who can show a few weak internal markings to the tertials and wing coverts, but 
never this strongly marked. BTW, it is clearly a juvenile bird for many reasons 
that are not needed here. The other field marks that are not fully consistent 
with LBDO are the bold, wide colorful edges and markings on the upperparts, 
which should be thinly edged in juvenile LBDO and lacking in strong internal 
color markings. Another feature that is not expected in LBDO is the thin neck 
and fairly evenly balanced weight distribution on this bird, which should stand 
out in direct comparison with SBDO. An explanation for the larger size could be 
that it is a bird of the subspecies hendersoni, which average larger in size 
compared to the Atlantic subspecies griseus, which outnumbers hendersoni about 
100-1 in NY and Long Island. These juvenile hendersoni also average brighter 
than griseus in all plumages, including juvenile, which could account for the 
bright upperparts on this bird. I also noted that the tail pattern shows about 
75 percent wide white bands, with the dark bands being about 25 percent the 
width. This is not consistent with LBDO, whose tails bands are typically 60-75 
percent dark bands with much narrower white ones. However, in our book The 
Shorebird Guide, a photo of two full breeding LBDOs show one bird with equal 
width bands, which some SBDOs can also have. 

I must say, however, when I first opened the photos, I thought Long-billed, and 
I choose juvenile Short-billed without the usual confidence that I have with 
most dowitchers. In real life, I would have evaluated the body structure and 
bill shape carefully on a moving bird, which is so much more reliable than 
photos, which can be misleading rather than helpful in many cases. I would have 
noted the chest and shoulder heavy structure in a relaxed feeding posture, with 
a front-heavy bodied appearance more obvious during continuous observation of 
feeding behavior. The fairly straight undercarraige on this bird is more 
consistent with SBDO, with LBDO having a more distended, rounded, egg-shaped 
undercarraige, but young LBDOs in fall often don't show this physical feature 
due to a lack of nourishment, or for some other reason that I don't know about. 
I just know that some juvenile Long-bills in fall seem to have more slender 
bodies than adults, especially the distinctive rounded or egg-shaped 
undercarraige. I must go to the Short-billed Dowitcher camp based on the 
strongly marked tertials and upperpart fringes and internal markings, but I do 
so with a few reservations based on the structural views and bill shape in 
these photos. Thanks for sharing these photos, Brendan. 


Kevin Karlson 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Brendan Fogarty" <000000dca2d16fd3-dmarc-request AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 11:09:10 AM 
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Dowitcher ID 

Hi everyone, 
I'd appreciated any input on this funky dowitcher. It was seen yesterday just 
before sunset on Long Island NY, where Short-billeds predominate. It was in a 
small freshwater pond a few hundred yards from a saltmarsh. I thought I heard a 
Long-billed call as a group of dowitchers flew the length of the pond. At least 
one silent bird left the pond for the marsh, but I tracked down this odd 
individual which seem suggestive of both species. 

What I want most is an opinion on the age. It looks to me to be a molting 
juvenile with heavily marked tertials (what other age could it be?), but 
structure and perhaps color are suggestive of Long-billed. 

Warning, photos backlit or fuzzy at best. 
https://goo.gl/photos/Q56SSMHAMn5GedZt8 


Best, 
Brendan Fogarty 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Cory's/Scopoli's Shearwater, Georgia, USA 26 August 2007
From: The HH75 <hhussey3 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 13:58:36 +0100
Hi Ken,
    This certainly seems to be an interesting bird. While it does have more
white than shown by a typical *borealis* on the underside of the primaries,
the pattern isn't as distinctive as on those nice 'nailed on' *diomedea*,
and is somewhat ambiguous, at least from this one image alone. Howell and
Patteson (2008) state that 'those (birds) with less distinct pale fingers
on two or three primaries among P8-10 could be either Cory's or Scopoli's'.
Those with greater experience of Scopoli's than me, including either of the
aforementioned authors, may beg to differ, of course. On the plus side,
there's a single dark spot at the base of P10 on the underwing, which
favours Scopoli's over Cory's.
    Are there any other images of this bird, no matter how bad?
                                                          Regards,
                                                                Harry Hussey

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Ken Blankenship <
kenhblankenship AT comcast.net> wrote:

> Hi, all.
>
> I'd like to get some opinions of the subject bird, which was photographed
> by Daniel Vickers off the Georgia coast on 26 August 2007. The underwing
> pattern is interesting, and at first look I thought it was pretty solid for
> Scopoli's. Still, I'm no pelagic expert, so the more feedback I can get,
> the better! You should be able to view the picture at this link:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/92748909 AT N02/29704291625
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Ken Blankenship
>
> Huachuca City, AZ
>
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fall warbler in California
From: David Irons <LLSDIRONS AT MSN.COM>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 06:18:47 +0000
Noah,


Jeff is correct. This bird is a hatch-year Blackburnian Warbler. There's 
nothing about the quality of these photos that makes them ambiguous, or makes 
this bird overly difficult to ID. I am presuming that you had some idea what 
this bird was before you posted your query to ID-Frontiers. 



This is generally not a "what's this?...it's that" forum like some of the pages 
found on Facebook, where folks post photos of a bird and hope for others to ID 
it for them. At times queries to this forum will include caveats such as, "I 
have my own thoughts...but I don't want to bias the thinking of others by 
saying what I think it is." This is particularly common with challenging 
Empids. The more common type of query on ID-Frontiers generally offers a 
putative ID of bird (often a local rarity) that is being debated for one reason 
or another. The dull Orange-crowned Warbler (some thought it might be a 
Tennessee) from earlier this week is a good example of this type of ID 
challenge. As I recall, you suggested that bird might be one of the Old World 
Phylloscopus warblers without supplying the forum with any supportive 
reasoning. A Phylloscopus warbler of any species would be highly unusual in 
California, thus it would have been appropriate to offer a credible argument to 
support your opinion. It's okay to be wrong, we've all been there, but unless 
we know how you got there we can't offer much help. 



Before answering a question like the one you posed about this warbler, I would 
want to first ask you what you think the bird is and why. Only then can I or 
others in the forum help you enhance your ability to answer these questions for 
yourself. I know the cat is out of the bag on the Blackburnian Warbler, but I 
would still like to know what you thought this bird was before you posted your 
query. Further, what field marks led you to that conclusion? 



Dave Irons

Portland, OR


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Jeff Gilligan 
 

Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 5:21 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fall warbler in California

Blackburnian Warbler immature.

Jeff Gilligan



On Sep 17, 2016, at 10:17 PM, Noah Arthur  wrote:

> Can this warbler be identified with 100% certainty, JUST from these two
> overexposed photos? If so, what is it?
>
> Here's the photos:
> 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/99231652 AT N07/29643320302/in/album-72157672808393870/ 

[X]Sept. 17, 2016, photo 
#1 



[https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8357/29643320302_de4bcac996_b.jpg][https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8357/29643320302_de4bcac996_b.jpg] 





>
> Noah Arthur
> Oakland, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Fall warbler in California
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 22:21:56 -0700
Blackburnian Warbler immature.  

Jeff Gilligan



On Sep 17, 2016, at 10:17 PM, Noah Arthur  wrote:

> Can this warbler be identified with 100% certainty, JUST from these two
> overexposed photos? If so, what is it?
> 
> Here's the photos:
> 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/99231652 AT N07/29643320302/in/album-72157672808393870/ 

> 
> Noah Arthur
> Oakland, CA
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Fall warbler in California
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 22:17:21 -0700
Can this warbler be identified with 100% certainty, JUST from these two
overexposed photos? If so, what is it?

Here's the photos:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99231652 AT N07/29643320302/in/album-72157672808393870/ 


Noah Arthur
Oakland, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: michael <mamlod AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 23:30:58 +0000
Folks, this may seem ludricrous, but this bird looks like a Warbling Vireo to 
me.--Mike M. 



________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Steve Hampton 
 

Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 11:44 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif

Correct, orestra cannot be ruled out.  In any event, this bird is typical
of the gray-headed OCWA we see, except of course for the pale vent.



On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:

> Is there consensus that the bird below is in fact an obvious celata? I
> think it may well be but I am under the impression that celata is pretty
> rare in CA (as in similar to Blackburnian or Canada Warbler status).
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Hampton
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 6:40 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
>
> All,
>
> Thanks to the many replies, both to the group and privately.  Overwhelming
> consensus is for "odd" Orange-cr Warbler, especially based on structure
> (long tail and short primaries-- TN is the reverse).
>
> To provide another (more extreme) example of a white-vented Orange-crowned
> Warbler, Mark Sawyer has allowed me to post these two pics of an obvious
> celata OCWA with a white vent, taken the same day several miles away.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/138812385 AT N06/albums/72157670571345123
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Michael L. P. Retter <
> 000001b489f19823-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu> wrote:
>
> > Um, no. I doubt very much it resembles a Phyllosc to anyone who knows
> > them well. It's an Orange-crowned Warbler. Michael L. P. Retter
> > --------------------------
> > Editor, Birder's Guide
> > American Birding Association
> > www.aba.org/birdersguide
> > Fort Worth, TX
> > ---------------------------
> >
> >       From: Noah Arthur 
> >  To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >  Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 3:51 PM
> >  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
> >
> > So... It's a very funny-looking OCWA-ish warbler that doesn't really
> > quite match any form of OCWA, and it has a blunt, non-Oreothlypis-like
> bill...
> > How about Phylloscopus sp?
> >
> > Noah
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, David Irons  wrote:
> >
> > > I have no explanation for the very pale undertail coverts, but
> > > otherwise this looks like a dull Orange-crowned Warbler and as Nick
> > > L. suggests, of the nominate subspecies celata.
> > >
> > > Dave Irons
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:50 AM, "kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU" <
> > > kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Orange-crowned.
> > > >
> > > > Tennessee has a VERY short tail extension beyond undertail coverts
> > > > when seen from below.  Orange-crowned has a significantly longer
> extension.
> > > > The third photo in particular, ML34688711, shows a fairly long
> > > > tail for the CA bird which matches Orange-crowned.  There are a
> > > > few other things that look better for OCWA to me (like lack of
> > > > single wing bar), but the tail extension is the first thing I
> > > > check when sorting through the
> > hordes
> > > > of fall TEWA for the odd OCWA here in TN... which is handy when
> > > > looking
> > > up
> > > > at them in the canopy.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A few examples of the tail extension from Google...
> > > >
> > > > Tennessee:
> > > > https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=
> > > images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivlqKt_
> > IzPAhVGwWMKHWrPBJQQjRwIBw&url=
> > > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tnwatchablewildlife.org%2Fdetails.cfm%
> > > 3Fdisplayhabitat%3Dforest%26sort%3Daounumber%26typename%3DFOREST%26u
> > > id% 3D09052508392888912%26commonname%3DTennessee%2520Warbler&psig=
> > > AFQjCNGpxidTjJxLhH6ZoSrQP8jvS-Zx0Q&ust=1473877088479233
> > > >
> > > > http://www.nemesisbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_
> > > 9992-700x463.jpg
> > > >
> > > > http://www.birdspix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/
> > > Tennessee-Warbler_7964v-cr.jpg
> > > >
> > > > Orange-crowned:
> > > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Orange-
> > > crowned_Warbler_741289647.jpg
> > > >
> > > > http://sdakotabirds.com/species/photos/orange_crowned_warbler.jpg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dean Edwards
> > > > Knoxville, TN
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Steve Hampton wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> All,
> > > >>
> > > >> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes
> > > >> from
> > > Putah
> > > >> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
> > > >>
> > > >> eBird report with several photos at
> > > >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
> > > >>
> > > >> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent,
> > > yellower
> > > >> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions),
> > > >> and a slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial
> > expression a
> > > >> little like Philly Vireo.
> > > >>
> > > >> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running
> > > >> the
> > > gamut
> > > >> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
> > > >>
> > > >> Comments welcome.
> > > >>
> > > >> thanks,
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Steve Hampton
> > > >> Davis, CA
> > > >>
> > > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> > > >
> > > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> > >
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> > >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Empidonax
From: "justin.bosler" <justin.bosler AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 17:59:23 -0500
Hi Ian,
Does this photo of a Western-type Flycatcher show enough to evaluate the 
primary to tail projection ratio? This record was submitted to the Louisiana 
Bird Records Committee as a Pac-slope/Cordilleran Flycatcher and is still 
circulating in e-round voting, i.e. not likely to be accepted even as a 
"Western". More details about the bird can be found at the link. 

https://flic.kr/p/qTRpEP Thank you for taking a look!Justin BoslerAustin, 
TSent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone 

-------- Original message --------From: Ian McLaren  Date: 
9/15/16 9:16 AM (GMT-06:00) To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU Subject: Re: 
[BIRDWG01] Mystery Empidonax 

I have been working up a paper with a tentative means of separating the 2 
"Western Flys" using primary/tail projection on suitably posed images with the 
primaries close to parallel with the tail. A carefully selected known ones from 
VIREO gives these as 0.38-0.44 for Pacific-slope and 0.53-0.56 for Cordilleran. 
Michael Park's bird is ~0.39. Last fall's eastern influx of "Western" also fell 
almost entirely in the PSFL category. 



Ian McLaren

________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Jason Rogers  

Sent: September 15, 2016 5:41:04 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Empidonax

Looks like a hatch-year Western Flycatcher to me. That's as far as I'll go. :)


Jason Rogers

Calgary, AB



________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Michael Park  

Sent: September 15, 2016 5:54 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Empidonax

I would some opinions on this Empidonax flycatcher. I believe the three images 
are of one individual. The images were taken on Sept. 13, 2016. I am 
withholding geographical information to illicit responses based on structure, 
molt and time of year. 


The link is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/74757345 AT N02/albums/72157670586570024

best,
Michael Park

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Cory's/Scopoli's Shearwater, Georgia, USA 26 August 2007
From: Ken Blankenship <kenhblankenship AT COMCAST.NET>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:27:52 +0000
Hi, all. 

I'd like to get some opinions of the subject bird, which was photographed by 
Daniel Vickers off the Georgia coast on 26 August 2007. The underwing pattern 
is interesting, and at first look I thought it was pretty solid for Scopoli's. 
Still, I'm no pelagic expert, so the more feedback I can get, the better! You 
should be able to view the picture at this link: 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/92748909 AT N02/29704291625 

Thanks in advance! 

Ken Blankenship 

Huachuca City, AZ 

  

 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Empidonax no2
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 18:28:27 +0000
I would go with Least Flycatcher on this one.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Park 

Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 9:25 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Empidonax no2

Two images taken in the shade of an Empid. that I would like some comment on. 
Thanks in advance! 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/74757345 AT N02/albums/72157673813717466

Michael Park

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Empidonax no2
From: Michael Park <dpbot AT EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 11:24:37 -0500
Two images taken in the shade of an Empid. that I would like some comment on. 
Thanks in advance! 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/74757345 AT N02/albums/72157673813717466

Michael Park

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Empidonax
From: Ian McLaren <I.A.McLaren AT DAL.CA>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 14:16:28 +0000
I have been working up a paper with a tentative means of separating the 2 
"Western Flys" using primary/tail projection on suitably posed images with the 
primaries close to parallel with the tail. A carefully selected known ones from 
VIREO gives these as 0.38-0.44 for Pacific-slope and 0.53-0.56 for Cordilleran. 
Michael Park's bird is ~0.39. Last fall's eastern influx of "Western" also fell 
almost entirely in the PSFL category. 



Ian McLaren

________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Jason Rogers  

Sent: September 15, 2016 5:41:04 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Empidonax

Looks like a hatch-year Western Flycatcher to me. That's as far as I'll go. :)


Jason Rogers

Calgary, AB



________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Michael Park  

Sent: September 15, 2016 5:54 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Empidonax

I would some opinions on this Empidonax flycatcher. I believe the three images 
are of one individual. The images were taken on Sept. 13, 2016. I am 
withholding geographical information to illicit responses based on structure, 
molt and time of year. 


The link is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/74757345 AT N02/albums/72157670586570024

best,
Michael Park

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Mystery Empidonax
From: Jason Rogers <hawkowl AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 08:41:04 +0000
Looks like a hatch-year Western Flycatcher to me. That's as far as I'll go. :)


Jason Rogers

Calgary, AB



________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Michael Park  

Sent: September 15, 2016 5:54 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Empidonax

I would some opinions on this Empidonax flycatcher. I believe the three images 
are of one individual. The images were taken on Sept. 13, 2016. I am 
withholding geographical information to illicit responses based on structure, 
molt and time of year. 


The link is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/74757345 AT N02/albums/72157670586570024

best,
Michael Park

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Mystery Empidonax again
From: Michael Park <dpbot AT EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 00:58:42 -0500
It should read ELICIT not illicit.

I didn't mean that we should outlaw or arrest the Empidonax for being so 
difficult. Although..... 


Michael Park

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Mystery Empidonax
From: Michael Park <dpbot AT EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 00:54:52 -0500
I would some opinions on this Empidonax flycatcher. I believe the three images 
are of one individual. The images were taken on Sept. 13, 2016. I am 
withholding geographical information to illicit responses based on structure, 
molt and time of year. 


The link is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/74757345 AT N02/albums/72157670586570024

best,
Michael Park

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Archilochus sp central Kansas
From: Joseph Miller <josephlowellmiller AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:52:17 -0500
Hi all, back in mid-August I had an interesting hummingbird at my feeders
here in central Kansas. It didn't stick around long and the few photos

 

I was able to get were pretty mediocre. Looking at the in-flight photos the
outer primaries seem really broad and blunt-tipped. Unfortunately, the bird
never actually perched on the feeder so I wasn't able to double-check the
primaries and wing/tail length etc. I'm not very confident with the ID
without having seen other supporting features, so I'm curious to hear what
your thoughts are on this bird.

Thanks,

Joseph Miller
Nickerson, Kansas
Reno County Birdmen 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: David Irons <LLSDIRONS AT MSN.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 18:25:08 +0000
Joe et al.,


I agree that there is overlap in orestera/celata, but I don't believe that this 
bird falls into the range of orestera. O. c. orestera is the expected breeding 
subspecies in the mountains (Wallowas and Blues) of northeastern Oregon and is 
the default form found in fall migration at the Harney County oases. Just a 
week ago I was over birding in northeastern Oregon and I found several migrant 
Orange-crowned Warblers. All were presumed HY orestera based on their 
appearance. We get a few such birds that pass through western Oregon in fall 
migration as well. 



There is one feature that I have found to be consistent in orestera at all 
seasons and in all age classes (particularly so with HY birds). The throat of 
orestera is typically quite yellow, often more rich than the yellow anywhere 
else on the underparts, though some of the fall migrants in e. Oregon are 
uniformly yellow from throat to undertail. In my experience, the yellow throat 
always looks to varying degrees framed by the grayer or dull olive auriculars, 
which for the most part lack yellow tones, especially on HY birds. This creates 
a hooded look to the head. I don't see these features on this bird. 



If one pokes around through photos of really dull Orange-crowned Warblers, most 
all of the birds that somewhat resemble this one (like the one in Giff Beaton's 
gallery) are fall birds presumed HYthat have been photographed in the east 
during migration, or wintering in the southeastern U.S. I see a few presumed 
celata as both spring and fall migrants here in Oregon. In the Willamette 
Valley we get a later wave (early to mid-May) of northbound Orange-crowneds 
that are fully a month behind the arrival of local breeding lutescens. These 
birds are much paler below and grayer on the head and mantle than lutescens. I 
assume these are birds that breed at more northerly locations in western Canada 
and Alaska. In fall migration I see far fewer Orange-crowneds that suggest 
celata in Oregon, even at the eastern Oregon oases. The birds that are presumed 
celata don't seem to show the rich yellow throat that I typically see on 
orestera and the head of celata typically does not look hooded, as it typically 
does on orestera. Perhaps I have created my own positive feedback loop with 
regards to this head pattern, but it seems to hold up when I'm birding in 
places where orestera is the default subspecies present. 



Over the past 6-7 years I've taken many hundreds of photos (maybe more than a 
thousand) photos of Orange-crowned Warblers in Oregon, California, Washington, 
Montana and Texas in an effort to get a better handle of subspecific 
differences in these birds. Based on what I've learned to this point, I feel 
pretty comfortable opining that this is not an orestera. 



Dave Irons

Portland, OR


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
 on behalf of Joseph Morlan  

Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 5:25 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif

I think there is some overlap in orestera/celata and distinguishing them
outside of their breeding range may not always be possible.  There are some
differences in measurements with orestera slightly larger.

A few fall birds with little or no yellow I think are safely considered to
be nominate celata.  Here is an example...

https://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/Orange-crownedWarblerDSCN5068.htm

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:49:02 +0000, "Lethaby, Nick" 
wrote:

>In the Santa Barbara area, we regularly see orestera in fall and they seem to 
be pretty consistently quite bright yellow below. I think I have seen birds 
like the one below perhaps just 2-3 times over the years although I have only 
really got serious about looking at OCWAs in the last few years. Re: the bird 
below, I would likely 

lean to celata strongly but Id like to see how gray it was above etc.
>
>From: Steve Hampton [mailto:stevechampton AT gmail.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:45 AM
>To: Lethaby, Nick
>Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
>
>Correct, orestra cannot be ruled out. In any event, this bird is typical of 
the gray-headed OCWA we see, except of course for the pale vent. 

>
>
>
>On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

>Is there consensus that the bird below is in fact an obvious celata? I think 
it may well be but I am under the impression that celata is pretty rare in CA 
(as in similar to Blackburnian or Canada Warbler status). 

>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Steve Hampton 

>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 6:40 AM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
>
>All,
>
>Thanks to the many replies, both to the group and privately. Overwhelming 
consensus is for "odd" Orange-cr Warbler, especially based on structure (long 
tail and short primaries-- TN is the reverse). 

>
>To provide another (more extreme) example of a white-vented Orange-crowned 
Warbler, Mark Sawyer has allowed me to post these two pics of an obvious celata 
OCWA with a white vent, taken the same day several miles away. 

>
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/138812385 AT N06/albums/72157670571345123
>
>
>
>On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Michael L. P. Retter < 
000001b489f19823-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu> 
wrote: 

>
>> Um, no. I doubt very much it resembles a Phyllosc to anyone who knows
>> them well. It's an Orange-crowned Warbler. Michael L. P. Retter
>> --------------------------
>> Editor, Birder's Guide
>> American Birding Association
>> 
www.aba.org/birdersguide> 

>> Fort Worth, TX
>> ---------------------------
>>
>> From: Noah Arthur > 

>>  To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>>  Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 3:51 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
>>
>> So... It's a very funny-looking OCWA-ish warbler that doesn't really
>> quite match any form of OCWA, and it has a blunt, non-Oreothlypis-like 
bill... 

>> How about Phylloscopus sp?
>>
>> Noah
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, David Irons 
> wrote: 

>>
>> > I have no explanation for the very pale undertail coverts, but
>> > otherwise this looks like a dull Orange-crowned Warbler and as Nick
>> > L. suggests, of the nominate subspecies celata.
>> >
>> > Dave Irons
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:50 AM, 
"kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU" < 

>> > kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Orange-crowned.
>> > >
>> > > Tennessee has a VERY short tail extension beyond undertail coverts
>> > > when seen from below. Orange-crowned has a significantly longer 
extension. 

>> > > The third photo in particular, ML34688711, shows a fairly long
>> > > tail for the CA bird which matches Orange-crowned.  There are a
>> > > few other things that look better for OCWA to me (like lack of
>> > > single wing bar), but the tail extension is the first thing I
>> > > check when sorting through the
>> hordes
>> > > of fall TEWA for the odd OCWA here in TN... which is handy when
>> > > looking
>> > up
>> > > at them in the canopy.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > A few examples of the tail extension from Google...
>> > >
>> > > Tennessee:
>> > > https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=
>> > images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivlqKt_
>> IzPAhVGwWMKHWrPBJQQjRwIBw&url=
>> > 
http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tnwatchablewildlife.org%2Fdetails.cfm% 

>> > 3Fdisplayhabitat%3Dforest%26sort%3Daounumber%26typename%3DFOREST%26u
>> > id% 3D09052508392888912%26commonname%3DTennessee%2520Warbler&psig=
>> > AFQjCNGpxidTjJxLhH6ZoSrQP8jvS-Zx0Q&ust=1473877088479233
>> > >
>> > > http://www.nemesisbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_
>> > 9992-700x463.jpg
>> > >
>> > > http://www.birdspix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/
>> > Tennessee-Warbler_7964v-cr.jpg
>> > >
>> > > Orange-crowned:
>> > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Orange-
>> > crowned_Warbler_741289647.jpg
>> > >
>> > > http://sdakotabirds.com/species/photos/orange_crowned_warbler.jpg
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Dean Edwards
>> > > Knoxville, TN
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Steve Hampton wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> All,
>> > >>
>> > >> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes
>> > >> from
>> > Putah
>> > >> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
>> > >>
>> > >> eBird report with several photos at
>> > >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
>> > >>
>> > >> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent,
>> > yellower
>> > >> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions),
>> > >> and a slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial
>> expression a
>> > >> little like Philly Vireo.
>> > >>
>> > >> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running
>> > >> the
>> > gamut
>> > >> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
>> > >>
>> > >> Comments welcome.
>> > >>
>> > >> thanks,
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> Steve Hampton
>> > >> Davis, CA
>> > >>
>> > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> > >
>> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> >
>> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> >
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Steve Hampton
>Davis, CA
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 11:10:19 -0700
We've had this discussion several times. On the 
Farallones we get all three subspecies in fall, 
and I've had 1-2 observations of what could have 
been sordida as well. For some reason lutescens 
is uncommon. Off the top of my head the fall 
proportions are about 70% lutescens, 20% 
orestera, and 10% celata. We have our means to 
identify all three (accounting for age/sex) but I 
admit some can be tricky, especially between orestera and celata.

Of the birds considered in this thread I'd call 
the first one a dull first-fall female lutescens 
(near the extreme dull end but not anomalous), 
the white-vented one the same day as a first-fall 
male or adult female celata, and Joe's bird as a 
first-fall female celata. The orestera that we 
identify tend to be greener or yellower than 
these last two birds and have indistinctly 
streaked breasts and less-distinct gray to grayish-washed heads.

Peter

At 10:25 AM 9/14/2016, Joseph Morlan wrote:
>I think there is some overlap in orestera/celata and distinguishing them
>outside of their breeding range may not always be possible.  There are some
>differences in measurements with orestera slightly larger.
>
>A few fall birds with little or no yellow I think are safely considered to
>be nominate celata.  Here is an example...
>
>https://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/Orange-crownedWarblerDSCN5068.htm
>
>On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:49:02 +0000, "Lethaby, Nick" 
>wrote:
>
> >In the Santa Barbara area, we regularly see 
> orestera in fall and they seem to be pretty 
> consistently quite bright yellow below. I think 
> I have seen birds like the one below perhaps 
> just 2-3 times over the years although I have 
> only really got serious about looking at OCWAs 
> in the last few years. Re: the bird below, I would likely
>lean to celata strongly but I’d like to see how gray it was above etc.
> >
> >From: Steve Hampton [mailto:stevechampton AT gmail.com]
> >Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:45 AM
> >To: Lethaby, Nick
> >Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
> >
> >Correct, orestra cannot be ruled out.  In any 
> event, this bird is typical of the gray-headed 
> OCWA we see, except of course for the pale vent.
> >
> >
> >
> >On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> > wrote:
> >Is there consensus that the bird below is in 
> fact an obvious celata? I think it may well be 
> but I am under the impression that celata is 
> pretty rare in CA (as in similar to Blackburnian or Canada Warbler status).
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field 
> Identification 
> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] 
> On Behalf Of Steve Hampton
> >Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 6:40 AM
> >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
> >
> >All,
> >
> >Thanks to the many replies, both to the group 
> and privately.  Overwhelming consensus is for 
> "odd" Orange-cr Warbler, especially based on 
> structure (long tail and short primaries-- TN is the reverse).
> >
> >To provide another (more extreme) example of a 
> white-vented Orange-crowned Warbler, Mark 
> Sawyer has allowed me to post these two pics of 
> an obvious celata OCWA with a white vent, taken 
> the same day several miles away.
> >
> >https://www.flickr.com/photos/138812385 AT N06/albums/72157670571345123
> >
> >
> >
> >On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Michael L. P. 
> Retter < 
> 
000001b489f19823-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu> 

> wrote:
> >
> >> Um, no. I doubt very much it resembles a Phyllosc to anyone who knows
> >> them well. It's an Orange-crowned Warbler. Michael L. P. Retter
> >> --------------------------
> >> Editor, Birder's Guide
> >> American Birding Association
> >> www.aba.org/birdersguide
> >> Fort Worth, TX
> >> ---------------------------
> >>
> >>       From: Noah Arthur 
> >
> >>  To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >>  Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 3:51 PM
> >>  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
> >>
> >> So... It's a very funny-looking OCWA-ish warbler that doesn't really
> >> quite match any form of OCWA, and it has a 
> blunt, non-Oreothlypis-like bill...
> >> How about Phylloscopus sp?
> >>
> >> Noah
> >>
> >> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, David Irons 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > I have no explanation for the very pale undertail coverts, but
> >> > otherwise this looks like a dull Orange-crowned Warbler and as Nick
> >> > L. suggests, of the nominate subspecies celata.
> >> >
> >> > Dave Irons
> >> >
> >> > Sent from my iPhone
> >> >
> >> > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:50 AM, 
> "kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU" <
> >> > kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Orange-crowned.
> >> > >
> >> > > Tennessee has a VERY short tail extension beyond undertail coverts
> >> > > when seen from below.  Orange-crowned 
> has a significantly longer extension.
> >> > > The third photo in particular, ML34688711, shows a fairly long
> >> > > tail for the CA bird which matches Orange-crowned.  There are a
> >> > > few other things that look better for OCWA to me (like lack of
> >> > > single wing bar), but the tail extension is the first thing I
> >> > > check when sorting through the
> >> hordes
> >> > > of fall TEWA for the odd OCWA here in TN... which is handy when
> >> > > looking
> >> > up
> >> > > at them in the canopy.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > A few examples of the tail extension from Google...
> >> > >
> >> > > Tennessee:
> >> > > https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=
> >> > images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivlqKt_
> >> IzPAhVGwWMKHWrPBJQQjRwIBw&url=
> >> > 
> 
http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tnwatchablewildlife.org%2Fdetails.cfm% 

> >> > 3Fdisplayhabitat%3Dforest%26sort%3Daounumber%26typename%3DFOREST%26u
> >> > id% 3D09052508392888912%26commonname%3DTennessee%2520Warbler&psig=
> >> > AFQjCNGpxidTjJxLhH6ZoSrQP8jvS-Zx0Q&ust=1473877088479233
> >> > >
> >> > > http://www.nemesisbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_
> >> > 9992-700x463.jpg
> >> > >
> >> > > http://www.birdspix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/
> >> > Tennessee-Warbler_7964v-cr.jpg
> >> > >
> >> > > Orange-crowned:
> >> > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Orange-
> >> > crowned_Warbler_741289647.jpg
> >> > >
> >> > > http://sdakotabirds.com/species/photos/orange_crowned_warbler.jpg
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Dean Edwards
> >> > > Knoxville, TN
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Steve Hampton wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> All,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes
> >> > >> from
> >> > Putah
> >> > >> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> eBird report with several photos at
> >> > >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
> >> > >>
> >> > >> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent,
> >> > yellower
> >> > >> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions),
> >> > >> and a slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial
> >> expression a
> >> > >> little like Philly Vireo.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running
> >> > >> the
> >> > gamut
> >> > >> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Comments welcome.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> thanks,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> --
> >> > >> Steve Hampton
> >> > >> Davis, CA
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >> > >
> >> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >> >
> >> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >> >
> >>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Steve Hampton
> >Davis, CA
> >Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>--
>Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 10:25:30 -0700
I think there is some overlap in orestera/celata and distinguishing them
outside of their breeding range may not always be possible.  There are some
differences in measurements with orestera slightly larger.  

A few fall birds with little or no yellow I think are safely considered to
be nominate celata.  Here is an example...

https://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/Orange-crownedWarblerDSCN5068.htm

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:49:02 +0000, "Lethaby, Nick" 
wrote:

>In the Santa Barbara area, we regularly see orestera in fall and they seem to 
be pretty consistently quite bright yellow below. I think I have seen birds 
like the one below perhaps just 2-3 times over the years although I have only 
really got serious about looking at OCWAs in the last few years. Re: the bird 
below, I would likely 

lean to celata strongly but I’d like to see how gray it was above etc.
>
>From: Steve Hampton [mailto:stevechampton AT gmail.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:45 AM
>To: Lethaby, Nick
>Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
>
>Correct, orestra cannot be ruled out. In any event, this bird is typical of 
the gray-headed OCWA we see, except of course for the pale vent. 

>
>
>
>On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

>Is there consensus that the bird below is in fact an obvious celata? I think 
it may well be but I am under the impression that celata is pretty rare in CA 
(as in similar to Blackburnian or Canada Warbler status). 

>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Steve Hampton 

>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 6:40 AM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
>
>All,
>
>Thanks to the many replies, both to the group and privately. Overwhelming 
consensus is for "odd" Orange-cr Warbler, especially based on structure (long 
tail and short primaries-- TN is the reverse). 

>
>To provide another (more extreme) example of a white-vented Orange-crowned 
Warbler, Mark Sawyer has allowed me to post these two pics of an obvious celata 
OCWA with a white vent, taken the same day several miles away. 

>
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/138812385 AT N06/albums/72157670571345123
>
>
>
>On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Michael L. P. Retter < 
000001b489f19823-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu> 
wrote: 

>
>> Um, no. I doubt very much it resembles a Phyllosc to anyone who knows
>> them well. It's an Orange-crowned Warbler. Michael L. P. Retter
>> --------------------------
>> Editor, Birder's Guide
>> American Birding Association
>> www.aba.org/birdersguide
>> Fort Worth, TX
>> ---------------------------
>>
>> From: Noah Arthur > 

>>  To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>>  Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 3:51 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
>>
>> So... It's a very funny-looking OCWA-ish warbler that doesn't really
>> quite match any form of OCWA, and it has a blunt, non-Oreothlypis-like 
bill... 

>> How about Phylloscopus sp?
>>
>> Noah
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, David Irons 
> wrote: 

>>
>> > I have no explanation for the very pale undertail coverts, but
>> > otherwise this looks like a dull Orange-crowned Warbler and as Nick
>> > L. suggests, of the nominate subspecies celata.
>> >
>> > Dave Irons
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:50 AM, 
"kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU" < 

>> > kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Orange-crowned.
>> > >
>> > > Tennessee has a VERY short tail extension beyond undertail coverts
>> > > when seen from below. Orange-crowned has a significantly longer 
extension. 

>> > > The third photo in particular, ML34688711, shows a fairly long
>> > > tail for the CA bird which matches Orange-crowned.  There are a
>> > > few other things that look better for OCWA to me (like lack of
>> > > single wing bar), but the tail extension is the first thing I
>> > > check when sorting through the
>> hordes
>> > > of fall TEWA for the odd OCWA here in TN... which is handy when
>> > > looking
>> > up
>> > > at them in the canopy.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > A few examples of the tail extension from Google...
>> > >
>> > > Tennessee:
>> > > https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=
>> > images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivlqKt_
>> IzPAhVGwWMKHWrPBJQQjRwIBw&url=
>> > 
http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tnwatchablewildlife.org%2Fdetails.cfm% 

>> > 3Fdisplayhabitat%3Dforest%26sort%3Daounumber%26typename%3DFOREST%26u
>> > id% 3D09052508392888912%26commonname%3DTennessee%2520Warbler&psig=
>> > AFQjCNGpxidTjJxLhH6ZoSrQP8jvS-Zx0Q&ust=1473877088479233
>> > >
>> > > http://www.nemesisbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_
>> > 9992-700x463.jpg
>> > >
>> > > http://www.birdspix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/
>> > Tennessee-Warbler_7964v-cr.jpg
>> > >
>> > > Orange-crowned:
>> > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Orange-
>> > crowned_Warbler_741289647.jpg
>> > >
>> > > http://sdakotabirds.com/species/photos/orange_crowned_warbler.jpg
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Dean Edwards
>> > > Knoxville, TN
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Steve Hampton wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> All,
>> > >>
>> > >> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes
>> > >> from
>> > Putah
>> > >> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
>> > >>
>> > >> eBird report with several photos at
>> > >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
>> > >>
>> > >> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent,
>> > yellower
>> > >> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions),
>> > >> and a slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial
>> expression a
>> > >> little like Philly Vireo.
>> > >>
>> > >> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running
>> > >> the
>> > gamut
>> > >> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
>> > >>
>> > >> Comments welcome.
>> > >>
>> > >> thanks,
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> Steve Hampton
>> > >> Davis, CA
>> > >>
>> > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> > >
>> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> >
>> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> >
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Steve Hampton
>Davis, CA
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:49:02 +0000
In the Santa Barbara area, we regularly see orestera in fall and they seem to 
be pretty consistently quite bright yellow below. I think I have seen birds 
like the one below perhaps just 2-3 times over the years although I have only 
really got serious about looking at OCWAs in the last few years. Re: the bird 
below, I would likely lean to celata strongly but I’d like to see how gray it 
was above etc. 


From: Steve Hampton [mailto:stevechampton AT gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 9:45 AM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif

Correct, orestra cannot be ruled out. In any event, this bird is typical of the 
gray-headed OCWA we see, except of course for the pale vent. 




On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

Is there consensus that the bird below is in fact an obvious celata? I think it 
may well be but I am under the impression that celata is pretty rare in CA (as 
in similar to Blackburnian or Canada Warbler status). 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Steve Hampton 

Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 6:40 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif

All,

Thanks to the many replies, both to the group and privately. Overwhelming 
consensus is for "odd" Orange-cr Warbler, especially based on structure (long 
tail and short primaries-- TN is the reverse). 


To provide another (more extreme) example of a white-vented Orange-crowned 
Warbler, Mark Sawyer has allowed me to post these two pics of an obvious celata 
OCWA with a white vent, taken the same day several miles away. 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/138812385 AT N06/albums/72157670571345123



On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Michael L. P. Retter < 
000001b489f19823-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu> 
wrote: 


> Um, no. I doubt very much it resembles a Phyllosc to anyone who knows
> them well. It's an Orange-crowned Warbler. Michael L. P. Retter
> --------------------------
> Editor, Birder's Guide
> American Birding Association
> www.aba.org/birdersguide
> Fort Worth, TX
> ---------------------------
>
> From: Noah Arthur > 

>  To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>  Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 3:51 PM
>  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
>
> So... It's a very funny-looking OCWA-ish warbler that doesn't really
> quite match any form of OCWA, and it has a blunt, non-Oreothlypis-like 
bill... 

> How about Phylloscopus sp?
>
> Noah
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, David Irons 
> wrote: 

>
> > I have no explanation for the very pale undertail coverts, but
> > otherwise this looks like a dull Orange-crowned Warbler and as Nick
> > L. suggests, of the nominate subspecies celata.
> >
> > Dave Irons
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:50 AM, 
"kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU" < 

> > kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU> wrote:
> > >
> > > Orange-crowned.
> > >
> > > Tennessee has a VERY short tail extension beyond undertail coverts
> > > when seen from below. Orange-crowned has a significantly longer 
extension. 

> > > The third photo in particular, ML34688711, shows a fairly long
> > > tail for the CA bird which matches Orange-crowned.  There are a
> > > few other things that look better for OCWA to me (like lack of
> > > single wing bar), but the tail extension is the first thing I
> > > check when sorting through the
> hordes
> > > of fall TEWA for the odd OCWA here in TN... which is handy when
> > > looking
> > up
> > > at them in the canopy.
> > >
> > >
> > > A few examples of the tail extension from Google...
> > >
> > > Tennessee:
> > > https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=
> > images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivlqKt_
> IzPAhVGwWMKHWrPBJQQjRwIBw&url=
> > 
http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tnwatchablewildlife.org%2Fdetails.cfm% 

> > 3Fdisplayhabitat%3Dforest%26sort%3Daounumber%26typename%3DFOREST%26u
> > id% 3D09052508392888912%26commonname%3DTennessee%2520Warbler&psig=
> > AFQjCNGpxidTjJxLhH6ZoSrQP8jvS-Zx0Q&ust=1473877088479233
> > >
> > > http://www.nemesisbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_
> > 9992-700x463.jpg
> > >
> > > http://www.birdspix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/
> > Tennessee-Warbler_7964v-cr.jpg
> > >
> > > Orange-crowned:
> > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Orange-
> > crowned_Warbler_741289647.jpg
> > >
> > > http://sdakotabirds.com/species/photos/orange_crowned_warbler.jpg
> > >
> > >
> > > Dean Edwards
> > > Knoxville, TN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Steve Hampton wrote:
> > >>
> > >> All,
> > >>
> > >> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes
> > >> from
> > Putah
> > >> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
> > >>
> > >> eBird report with several photos at
> > >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
> > >>
> > >> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent,
> > yellower
> > >> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions),
> > >> and a slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial
> expression a
> > >> little like Philly Vireo.
> > >>
> > >> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running
> > >> the
> > gamut
> > >> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
> > >>
> > >> Comments welcome.
> > >>
> > >> thanks,
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Steve Hampton
> > >> Davis, CA
> > >>
> > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> > >
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 09:44:53 -0700
Correct, orestra cannot be ruled out.  In any event, this bird is typical
of the gray-headed OCWA we see, except of course for the pale vent.



On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:

> Is there consensus that the bird below is in fact an obvious celata? I
> think it may well be but I am under the impression that celata is pretty
> rare in CA (as in similar to Blackburnian or Canada Warbler status).
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Hampton
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 6:40 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
>
> All,
>
> Thanks to the many replies, both to the group and privately.  Overwhelming
> consensus is for "odd" Orange-cr Warbler, especially based on structure
> (long tail and short primaries-- TN is the reverse).
>
> To provide another (more extreme) example of a white-vented Orange-crowned
> Warbler, Mark Sawyer has allowed me to post these two pics of an obvious
> celata OCWA with a white vent, taken the same day several miles away.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/138812385 AT N06/albums/72157670571345123
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Michael L. P. Retter <
> 000001b489f19823-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu> wrote:
>
> > Um, no. I doubt very much it resembles a Phyllosc to anyone who knows
> > them well. It's an Orange-crowned Warbler. Michael L. P. Retter
> > --------------------------
> > Editor, Birder's Guide
> > American Birding Association
> > www.aba.org/birdersguide
> > Fort Worth, TX
> > ---------------------------
> >
> >       From: Noah Arthur 
> >  To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >  Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 3:51 PM
> >  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
> >
> > So... It's a very funny-looking OCWA-ish warbler that doesn't really
> > quite match any form of OCWA, and it has a blunt, non-Oreothlypis-like
> bill...
> > How about Phylloscopus sp?
> >
> > Noah
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, David Irons  wrote:
> >
> > > I have no explanation for the very pale undertail coverts, but
> > > otherwise this looks like a dull Orange-crowned Warbler and as Nick
> > > L. suggests, of the nominate subspecies celata.
> > >
> > > Dave Irons
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:50 AM, "kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU" <
> > > kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Orange-crowned.
> > > >
> > > > Tennessee has a VERY short tail extension beyond undertail coverts
> > > > when seen from below.  Orange-crowned has a significantly longer
> extension.
> > > > The third photo in particular, ML34688711, shows a fairly long
> > > > tail for the CA bird which matches Orange-crowned.  There are a
> > > > few other things that look better for OCWA to me (like lack of
> > > > single wing bar), but the tail extension is the first thing I
> > > > check when sorting through the
> > hordes
> > > > of fall TEWA for the odd OCWA here in TN... which is handy when
> > > > looking
> > > up
> > > > at them in the canopy.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A few examples of the tail extension from Google...
> > > >
> > > > Tennessee:
> > > > https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=
> > > images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivlqKt_
> > IzPAhVGwWMKHWrPBJQQjRwIBw&url=
> > > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tnwatchablewildlife.org%2Fdetails.cfm%
> > > 3Fdisplayhabitat%3Dforest%26sort%3Daounumber%26typename%3DFOREST%26u
> > > id% 3D09052508392888912%26commonname%3DTennessee%2520Warbler&psig=
> > > AFQjCNGpxidTjJxLhH6ZoSrQP8jvS-Zx0Q&ust=1473877088479233
> > > >
> > > > http://www.nemesisbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_
> > > 9992-700x463.jpg
> > > >
> > > > http://www.birdspix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/
> > > Tennessee-Warbler_7964v-cr.jpg
> > > >
> > > > Orange-crowned:
> > > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Orange-
> > > crowned_Warbler_741289647.jpg
> > > >
> > > > http://sdakotabirds.com/species/photos/orange_crowned_warbler.jpg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dean Edwards
> > > > Knoxville, TN
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Steve Hampton wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> All,
> > > >>
> > > >> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes
> > > >> from
> > > Putah
> > > >> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
> > > >>
> > > >> eBird report with several photos at
> > > >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
> > > >>
> > > >> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent,
> > > yellower
> > > >> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions),
> > > >> and a slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial
> > expression a
> > > >> little like Philly Vireo.
> > > >>
> > > >> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running
> > > >> the
> > > gamut
> > > >> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
> > > >>
> > > >> Comments welcome.
> > > >>
> > > >> thanks,
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Steve Hampton
> > > >> Davis, CA
> > > >>
> > > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> > > >
> > > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> > >
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> > >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 16:31:21 +0000
Is there consensus that the bird below is in fact an obvious celata? I think it 
may well be but I am under the impression that celata is pretty rare in CA (as 
in similar to Blackburnian or Canada Warbler status). 


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Hampton 

Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 6:40 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif

All,

Thanks to the many replies, both to the group and privately. Overwhelming 
consensus is for "odd" Orange-cr Warbler, especially based on structure (long 
tail and short primaries-- TN is the reverse). 


To provide another (more extreme) example of a white-vented Orange-crowned 
Warbler, Mark Sawyer has allowed me to post these two pics of an obvious celata 
OCWA with a white vent, taken the same day several miles away. 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/138812385 AT N06/albums/72157670571345123



On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Michael L. P. Retter < 
000001b489f19823-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu> wrote: 


> Um, no. I doubt very much it resembles a Phyllosc to anyone who knows 
> them well. It's an Orange-crowned Warbler. Michael L. P. Retter
> --------------------------
> Editor, Birder's Guide
> American Birding Association
> www.aba.org/birdersguide
> Fort Worth, TX
> ---------------------------
>
>       From: Noah Arthur 
>  To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>  Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 3:51 PM
>  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
>
> So... It's a very funny-looking OCWA-ish warbler that doesn't really 
> quite match any form of OCWA, and it has a blunt, non-Oreothlypis-like 
bill... 

> How about Phylloscopus sp?
>
> Noah
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, David Irons  wrote:
>
> > I have no explanation for the very pale undertail coverts, but 
> > otherwise this looks like a dull Orange-crowned Warbler and as Nick 
> > L. suggests, of the nominate subspecies celata.
> >
> > Dave Irons
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:50 AM, "kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU" <
> > kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU> wrote:
> > >
> > > Orange-crowned.
> > >
> > > Tennessee has a VERY short tail extension beyond undertail coverts 
> > > when seen from below. Orange-crowned has a significantly longer 
extension. 

> > > The third photo in particular, ML34688711, shows a fairly long 
> > > tail for the CA bird which matches Orange-crowned.  There are a 
> > > few other things that look better for OCWA to me (like lack of 
> > > single wing bar), but the tail extension is the first thing I 
> > > check when sorting through the
> hordes
> > > of fall TEWA for the odd OCWA here in TN... which is handy when 
> > > looking
> > up
> > > at them in the canopy.
> > >
> > >
> > > A few examples of the tail extension from Google...
> > >
> > > Tennessee:
> > > https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=
> > images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivlqKt_
> IzPAhVGwWMKHWrPBJQQjRwIBw&url=
> > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tnwatchablewildlife.org%2Fdetails.cfm%
> > 3Fdisplayhabitat%3Dforest%26sort%3Daounumber%26typename%3DFOREST%26u
> > id% 3D09052508392888912%26commonname%3DTennessee%2520Warbler&psig=
> > AFQjCNGpxidTjJxLhH6ZoSrQP8jvS-Zx0Q&ust=1473877088479233
> > >
> > > http://www.nemesisbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_
> > 9992-700x463.jpg
> > >
> > > http://www.birdspix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/
> > Tennessee-Warbler_7964v-cr.jpg
> > >
> > > Orange-crowned:
> > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Orange-
> > crowned_Warbler_741289647.jpg
> > >
> > > http://sdakotabirds.com/species/photos/orange_crowned_warbler.jpg
> > >
> > >
> > > Dean Edwards
> > > Knoxville, TN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Steve Hampton wrote:
> > >>
> > >> All,
> > >>
> > >> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes 
> > >> from
> > Putah
> > >> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
> > >>
> > >> eBird report with several photos at
> > >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
> > >>
> > >> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent,
> > yellower
> > >> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions), 
> > >> and a slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial
> expression a
> > >> little like Philly Vireo.
> > >>
> > >> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running 
> > >> the
> > gamut
> > >> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
> > >>
> > >> Comments welcome.
> > >>
> > >> thanks,
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Steve Hampton
> > >> Davis, CA
> > >>
> > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> > >
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 06:40:26 -0700
All,

Thanks to the many replies, both to the group and privately.  Overwhelming
consensus is for "odd" Orange-cr Warbler, especially based on structure
(long tail and short primaries-- TN is the reverse).

To provide another (more extreme) example of a white-vented Orange-crowned
Warbler, Mark Sawyer has allowed me to post these two pics of an obvious
celata OCWA with a white vent, taken the same day several miles away.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138812385 AT N06/albums/72157670571345123



On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Michael L. P. Retter <
000001b489f19823-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu> wrote:

> Um, no. I doubt very much it resembles a Phyllosc to anyone who knows them
> well. It's an Orange-crowned Warbler. Michael L. P. Retter
> --------------------------
> Editor, Birder's Guide
> American Birding Association
> www.aba.org/birdersguide
> Fort Worth, TX
> ---------------------------
>
>       From: Noah Arthur 
>  To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>  Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 3:51 PM
>  Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
>
> So... It's a very funny-looking OCWA-ish warbler that doesn't really quite
> match any form of OCWA, and it has a blunt, non-Oreothlypis-like bill...
> How about Phylloscopus sp?
>
> Noah
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, David Irons  wrote:
>
> > I have no explanation for the very pale undertail coverts, but otherwise
> > this looks like a dull Orange-crowned Warbler and as Nick L. suggests, of
> > the nominate subspecies celata.
> >
> > Dave Irons
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:50 AM, "kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU" <
> > kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU> wrote:
> > >
> > > Orange-crowned.
> > >
> > > Tennessee has a VERY short tail extension beyond undertail coverts when
> > > seen from below.  Orange-crowned has a significantly longer extension.
> > > The third photo in particular, ML34688711, shows a fairly long tail for
> > > the CA bird which matches Orange-crowned.  There are a few other things
> > > that look better for OCWA to me (like lack of single wing bar), but the
> > > tail extension is the first thing I check when sorting through the
> hordes
> > > of fall TEWA for the odd OCWA here in TN... which is handy when looking
> > up
> > > at them in the canopy.
> > >
> > >
> > > A few examples of the tail extension from Google...
> > >
> > > Tennessee:
> > > https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=
> > images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivlqKt_
> IzPAhVGwWMKHWrPBJQQjRwIBw&url=
> > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tnwatchablewildlife.org%2Fdetails.cfm%
> > 3Fdisplayhabitat%3Dforest%26sort%3Daounumber%26typename%3DFOREST%26uid%
> > 3D09052508392888912%26commonname%3DTennessee%2520Warbler&psig=
> > AFQjCNGpxidTjJxLhH6ZoSrQP8jvS-Zx0Q&ust=1473877088479233
> > >
> > > http://www.nemesisbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_
> > 9992-700x463.jpg
> > >
> > > http://www.birdspix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/
> > Tennessee-Warbler_7964v-cr.jpg
> > >
> > > Orange-crowned:
> > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Orange-
> > crowned_Warbler_741289647.jpg
> > >
> > > http://sdakotabirds.com/species/photos/orange_crowned_warbler.jpg
> > >
> > >
> > > Dean Edwards
> > > Knoxville, TN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Steve Hampton wrote:
> > >>
> > >> All,
> > >>
> > >> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes from
> > Putah
> > >> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
> > >>
> > >> eBird report with several photos at
> > >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
> > >>
> > >> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent,
> > yellower
> > >> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions), and a
> > >> slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial
> expression a
> > >> little like Philly Vireo.
> > >>
> > >> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running the
> > gamut
> > >> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
> > >>
> > >> Comments welcome.
> > >>
> > >> thanks,
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Steve Hampton
> > >> Davis, CA
> > >>
> > >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> > >
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: John Sterling <jsterling AT WAVECABLE.COM>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 13:54:58 -0700
these very dull Orange-crowns show up in California in fall in small numbers 
and are not too out of the ordinary if you check 100s of Orange-crowns each 
fall 



John Sterling
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

26 Palm Ave
Woodland, CA 95695
530 908-3836
jsterling AT wavecable.com
www.sterlingbirds.com

> On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:51 PM, Noah Arthur  wrote:
> 
> So... It's a very funny-looking OCWA-ish warbler that doesn't really quite
> match any form of OCWA, and it has a blunt, non-Oreothlypis-like bill...
> How about Phylloscopus sp?
> 
> Noah
> 
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, David Irons  wrote:
> 
>> I have no explanation for the very pale undertail coverts, but otherwise
>> this looks like a dull Orange-crowned Warbler and as Nick L. suggests, of
>> the nominate subspecies celata.
>> 
>> Dave Irons
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:50 AM, "kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU" <
>> kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Orange-crowned.
>>> 
>>> Tennessee has a VERY short tail extension beyond undertail coverts when
>>> seen from below.  Orange-crowned has a significantly longer extension.
>>> The third photo in particular, ML34688711, shows a fairly long tail for
>>> the CA bird which matches Orange-crowned.  There are a few other things
>>> that look better for OCWA to me (like lack of single wing bar), but the
>>> tail extension is the first thing I check when sorting through the hordes
>>> of fall TEWA for the odd OCWA here in TN... which is handy when looking
>> up
>>> at them in the canopy.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A few examples of the tail extension from Google...
>>> 
>>> Tennessee:
>>> https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=
>> images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivlqKt_IzPAhVGwWMKHWrPBJQQjRwIBw&url=
>> http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tnwatchablewildlife.org%2Fdetails.cfm%
>> 3Fdisplayhabitat%3Dforest%26sort%3Daounumber%26typename%3DFOREST%26uid%
>> 3D09052508392888912%26commonname%3DTennessee%2520Warbler&psig=
>> AFQjCNGpxidTjJxLhH6ZoSrQP8jvS-Zx0Q&ust=1473877088479233
>>> 
>>> http://www.nemesisbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_
>> 9992-700x463.jpg
>>> 
>>> http://www.birdspix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/
>> Tennessee-Warbler_7964v-cr.jpg
>>> 
>>> Orange-crowned:
>>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Orange-
>> crowned_Warbler_741289647.jpg
>>> 
>>> http://sdakotabirds.com/species/photos/orange_crowned_warbler.jpg
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dean Edwards
>>> Knoxville, TN
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Steve Hampton wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> All,
>>>> 
>>>> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes from
>> Putah
>>>> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
>>>> 
>>>> eBird report with several photos at
>>>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
>>>> 
>>>> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent,
>> yellower
>>>> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions), and a
>>>> slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial expression a
>>>> little like Philly Vireo.
>>>> 
>>>> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running the
>> gamut
>>>> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
>>>> 
>>>> Comments welcome.
>>>> 
>>>> thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Steve Hampton
>>>> Davis, CA
>>>> 
>>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>>> 
>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> 
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 20:53:08 +0000
It's a much closer match to an OCWA than any phylloscopus.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Noah Arthur 

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:52 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif

So... It's a very funny-looking OCWA-ish warbler that doesn't really quite 
match any form of OCWA, and it has a blunt, non-Oreothlypis-like bill... 

How about Phylloscopus sp?

Noah

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, David Irons  wrote:

> I have no explanation for the very pale undertail coverts, but 
> otherwise this looks like a dull Orange-crowned Warbler and as Nick L. 
> suggests, of the nominate subspecies celata.
>
> Dave Irons
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:50 AM, "kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU" <
> kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > Orange-crowned.
> >
> > Tennessee has a VERY short tail extension beyond undertail coverts 
> > when seen from below. Orange-crowned has a significantly longer extension. 

> > The third photo in particular, ML34688711, shows a fairly long tail 
> > for the CA bird which matches Orange-crowned.  There are a few other 
> > things that look better for OCWA to me (like lack of single wing 
> > bar), but the tail extension is the first thing I check when sorting 
> > through the hordes of fall TEWA for the odd OCWA here in TN... which 
> > is handy when looking
> up
> > at them in the canopy.
> >
> >
> > A few examples of the tail extension from Google...
> >
> > Tennessee:
> > https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=
> images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivlqKt_IzPAhVGwWMKHWrPBJQQjRwIBw&
> url= http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tnwatchablewildlife.org%2Fdetails.cfm%
> 3Fdisplayhabitat%3Dforest%26sort%3Daounumber%26typename%3DFOREST%26uid
> % 3D09052508392888912%26commonname%3DTennessee%2520Warbler&psig=
> AFQjCNGpxidTjJxLhH6ZoSrQP8jvS-Zx0Q&ust=1473877088479233
> >
> > http://www.nemesisbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_
> 9992-700x463.jpg
> >
> > http://www.birdspix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/
> Tennessee-Warbler_7964v-cr.jpg
> >
> > Orange-crowned:
> > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Orange-
> crowned_Warbler_741289647.jpg
> >
> > http://sdakotabirds.com/species/photos/orange_crowned_warbler.jpg
> >
> >
> > Dean Edwards
> > Knoxville, TN
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Steve Hampton wrote:
> >>
> >> All,
> >>
> >> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes 
> >> from
> Putah
> >> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
> >>
> >> eBird report with several photos at
> >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
> >>
> >> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent,
> yellower
> >> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions), and 
> >> a slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial 
> >> expression a little like Philly Vireo.
> >>
> >> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running the
> gamut
> >> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
> >>
> >> Comments welcome.
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >>
> >> --
> >> Steve Hampton
> >> Davis, CA
> >>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: Noah Arthur <semirelicta AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 13:51:53 -0700
So... It's a very funny-looking OCWA-ish warbler that doesn't really quite
match any form of OCWA, and it has a blunt, non-Oreothlypis-like bill...
How about Phylloscopus sp?

Noah

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, David Irons  wrote:

> I have no explanation for the very pale undertail coverts, but otherwise
> this looks like a dull Orange-crowned Warbler and as Nick L. suggests, of
> the nominate subspecies celata.
>
> Dave Irons
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:50 AM, "kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU" <
> kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > Orange-crowned.
> >
> > Tennessee has a VERY short tail extension beyond undertail coverts when
> > seen from below.  Orange-crowned has a significantly longer extension.
> > The third photo in particular, ML34688711, shows a fairly long tail for
> > the CA bird which matches Orange-crowned.  There are a few other things
> > that look better for OCWA to me (like lack of single wing bar), but the
> > tail extension is the first thing I check when sorting through the hordes
> > of fall TEWA for the odd OCWA here in TN... which is handy when looking
> up
> > at them in the canopy.
> >
> >
> > A few examples of the tail extension from Google...
> >
> > Tennessee:
> > https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=
> images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivlqKt_IzPAhVGwWMKHWrPBJQQjRwIBw&url=
> http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tnwatchablewildlife.org%2Fdetails.cfm%
> 3Fdisplayhabitat%3Dforest%26sort%3Daounumber%26typename%3DFOREST%26uid%
> 3D09052508392888912%26commonname%3DTennessee%2520Warbler&psig=
> AFQjCNGpxidTjJxLhH6ZoSrQP8jvS-Zx0Q&ust=1473877088479233
> >
> > http://www.nemesisbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_
> 9992-700x463.jpg
> >
> > http://www.birdspix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/
> Tennessee-Warbler_7964v-cr.jpg
> >
> > Orange-crowned:
> > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Orange-
> crowned_Warbler_741289647.jpg
> >
> > http://sdakotabirds.com/species/photos/orange_crowned_warbler.jpg
> >
> >
> > Dean Edwards
> > Knoxville, TN
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Steve Hampton wrote:
> >>
> >> All,
> >>
> >> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes from
> Putah
> >> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
> >>
> >> eBird report with several photos at
> >> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
> >>
> >> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent,
> yellower
> >> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions), and a
> >> slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial expression a
> >> little like Philly Vireo.
> >>
> >> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running the
> gamut
> >> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
> >>
> >> Comments welcome.
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >>
> >> --
> >> Steve Hampton
> >> Davis, CA
> >>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 20:32:22 +0000
I have no explanation for the very pale undertail coverts, but otherwise this 
looks like a dull Orange-crowned Warbler and as Nick L. suggests, of the 
nominate subspecies celata. 


Dave Irons

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 13, 2016, at 11:50 AM, "kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU" 
 wrote: 

> 
> Orange-crowned.  
> 
> Tennessee has a VERY short tail extension beyond undertail coverts when 
> seen from below.  Orange-crowned has a significantly longer extension.  
> The third photo in particular, ML34688711, shows a fairly long tail for 
> the CA bird which matches Orange-crowned.  There are a few other things 
> that look better for OCWA to me (like lack of single wing bar), but the 
> tail extension is the first thing I check when sorting through the hordes 
> of fall TEWA for the odd OCWA here in TN... which is handy when looking up 
> at them in the canopy.
> 
> 
> A few examples of the tail extension from Google...
> 
> Tennessee:
> 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivlqKt_IzPAhVGwWMKHWrPBJQQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tnwatchablewildlife.org%2Fdetails.cfm%3Fdisplayhabitat%3Dforest%26sort%3Daounumber%26typename%3DFOREST%26uid%3D09052508392888912%26commonname%3DTennessee%2520Warbler&psig=AFQjCNGpxidTjJxLhH6ZoSrQP8jvS-Zx0Q&ust=1473877088479233 

> 
> http://www.nemesisbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_9992-700x463.jpg
> 
> 
http://www.birdspix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Tennessee-Warbler_7964v-cr.jpg 

> 
> Orange-crowned:
> 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Orange-crowned_Warbler_741289647.jpg 

> 
> http://sdakotabirds.com/species/photos/orange_crowned_warbler.jpg
> 
> 
> Dean Edwards
> Knoxville, TN
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Steve Hampton wrote:
>> 
>> All,
>> 
>> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes from Putah
>> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
>> 
>> eBird report with several photos at
>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
>> 
>> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent, yellower
>> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions), and a
>> slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial expression a
>> little like Philly Vireo.
>> 
>> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running the gamut
>> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
>> 
>> Comments welcome.
>> 
>> thanks,
>> 
>> -- 
>> Steve Hampton
>> Davis, CA
>> 
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: Giff Beaton <giffbeaton AT MINDSPRING.COM>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 15:17:39 -0400
Steve et al: In addition to the length of the ut coverts as pointed out by 
Julian and Dean, the color of the ut coverts is wrong as is the primary 
extension for Tennessee. On Tennessee, the ut coverts are the whitest part of 
the underside, while on Orange-crowned they are typically the yellowest (at 
least in the East). The primary extension is quite long on Tennessee, and quite 
short on OC. You can see this well in the first image on the checklist. 


I have a series of images that show all these features for both species here if 
anyone is interested, just scroll down to Oreothlypis: 


http://www.giffbeaton.com/warblers.htm

Having said all that, it is an odd looking OC and Im not surprised it is 
generating some discussion. The bill does not look Oreothlypis-like (or 
Vermivora-like for old-timers) to me, being rather short and blunt, and as 
pointed out earlier the ut coverts are not any brighter than the rest of the 
underparts. But the combination of plumage features and primary extension 
certainly looks best for OC. 


Giff Beaton
Marietta GA


On Sep 13, 2016, at 1:49 PM, Steve Hampton  wrote:

> All,
> 
> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes from Putah
> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
> 
> eBird report with several photos at
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
> 
> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent, yellower
> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions), and a
> slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial expression a
> little like Philly Vireo.
> 
> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running the gamut
> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
> 
> Comments welcome.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> -- 
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 19:13:45 +0000
Steve,

This is an interesting bird for sure, but I would go with an Orange-crowned for 
sure. It seems very odd thought in that it lacks yellow below AND doesn't show 
any contrasting gray head. If it had a gray head, I would suggest nominate 
celata might be considered. 


Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Hampton 

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 10:49 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif

All,

This bird is generating some discussion in California. It comes from Putah 
Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9. 


eBird report with several photos at
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365

In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent, yellower up 
the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions), and a slightly 
curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial expression a little like 
Philly Vireo. 


Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running the gamut from 
paler and grayer to bright yellow. 


Comments welcome.

thanks,

--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: Andrew Haffenden <andrew AT NATSP.COM>
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 05:02:26 +1000
Combined with the not-white UTCs and long tail is the little light 
feathering under the alula, which is different to the sometimes seen in 
fresh birds covert tip in Tennessee.



Cheers,



Andrew Haffenden




-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Hampton
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 12:49 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif

All,

This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes from Putah 
Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.

eBird report with several photos at
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365

In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent, yellower up 
the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions), and a slightly 
curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial expression a little like 
Philly Vireo.

Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running the gamut 
from paler and grayer to bright yellow.

Comments welcome.

thanks,

--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: kde AT ANGST.ENGR.UTK.EDU
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 14:38:17 -0400
Orange-crowned.  

Tennessee has a VERY short tail extension beyond undertail coverts when 
seen from below.  Orange-crowned has a significantly longer extension.  
The third photo in particular, ML34688711, shows a fairly long tail for 
the CA bird which matches Orange-crowned.  There are a few other things 
that look better for OCWA to me (like lack of single wing bar), but the 
tail extension is the first thing I check when sorting through the hordes 
of fall TEWA for the odd OCWA here in TN... which is handy when looking up 
at them in the canopy.


A few examples of the tail extension from Google...

Tennessee:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivlqKt_IzPAhVGwWMKHWrPBJQQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tnwatchablewildlife.org%2Fdetails.cfm%3Fdisplayhabitat%3Dforest%26sort%3Daounumber%26typename%3DFOREST%26uid%3D09052508392888912%26commonname%3DTennessee%2520Warbler&psig=AFQjCNGpxidTjJxLhH6ZoSrQP8jvS-Zx0Q&ust=1473877088479233 


http://www.nemesisbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_9992-700x463.jpg


http://www.birdspix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Tennessee-Warbler_7964v-cr.jpg 


Orange-crowned:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Orange-crowned_Warbler_741289647.jpg 


http://sdakotabirds.com/species/photos/orange_crowned_warbler.jpg


Dean Edwards
Knoxville, TN



On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Steve Hampton wrote:

> All,
> 
> This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes from Putah
> Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.
> 
> eBird report with several photos at
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365
> 
> In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent, yellower
> up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions), and a
> slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial expression a
> little like Philly Vireo.
> 
> Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running the gamut
> from paler and grayer to bright yellow.
> 
> Comments welcome.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> -- 
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
> 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: julian hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 18:36:14 +0000
Steve,
Plumage aside, I was struck by the fact that your bird looks quite long-tailed, 
not short-tailed, which is how I think of TEWAs. The lack of pale fringes to 
the primaries and the overall "look“ suggest a weird, pale OCWA rather than 
TEWA. 

Regards,
Julian Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519 www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com 

 On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:49 PM, Steve Hampton 
 wrote: 

 

 All,

This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes from Putah
Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.

eBird report with several photos at
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365

In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent, yellower
up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions), and a
slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial expression a
little like Philly Vireo.

Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running the gamut
from paler and grayer to bright yellow.

Comments welcome.

thanks,

-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


   

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Tennessee-ish Warbler in Calif
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 10:49:26 -0700
All,

This bird is generating some discussion in California.  It comes from Putah
Creek, Davis, Yolo County, on Sept 9.

eBird report with several photos at
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31503365

In the field, it had a creamy white (but not bright white) vent, yellower
up the breast (with an ochre cast in some lighting conditions), and a
slightly curved supercilium and dark lore creating a facial expression a
little like Philly Vireo.

Orange-crowns are common here, and are highly variable, running the gamut
from paler and grayer to bright yellow.

Comments welcome.

thanks,

-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 15:51:26 +0000
All,

Just to add a bit more on the private replies I received. I had one "cross 
over" opinion from a West Coast birder (who was currently seeing a lot of Semis 
in E. Canada) who felt it was a Semi. As Kevin points out we generally had an 
East/West split on this bird. I think it's clear (and not surprising) that 
location bias is playing into the identification of such birds for most 
birders, even experts. 


When one considers the variation these juv peeps/stints can show, I think it's 
pretty easy to construct a RN Stint or Semipalmated that would look near 
identical to a Western or vice versa, so there will always be a small % of 
birds that are probably not reliably identifiable (that we just default to the 
common species for the area). 


Especially with the recent CA records of juv RN Stint, I can safely say I have 
a better handle on what a typical will look like. Now I just have to find a 
real one! 


Regards, Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET 

Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 11:49 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated?

Al, thanks for the gracious response. This has been a great discussion about a 
bird that a number of expert birders disagree about, but I think the 
information shared will benefit many people, who can make their own conclusion 
based only on photos. I can guarantee that if we were all together in the field 
and could assess this bird against other Westerns and Semis that we would come 
to a conclusion that most of us would agree with. Photos cannot show the subtle 
differences in body language and motion that is often seen when the species are 
side by side (such as the longer tibia on Western often resulting in a 
different walking gait, and the longer outstretched neck feeding style of most 
Westerns compared to the more retracted neck feeding style of Semi), and a 
direct visual comparison in the field is so helpful to a conclusion of a 
problematic bird in photos like the Pacific peep. At least many people will now 
bring more information to the ID of these sometimes similar species in future 
sightings. If I saw this bird in real life and concluded that it was a Western 
male, I would have no problem admitting my mistake, and would learn from the 
experience. It is interesting, however, that most of the Pacific Coast birders 
feel that this bird is a Western, while all but Julian among East Coast experts 
that have responded to me privately or publicly feel that it is a normal Semi 
that we see on a regular basis every year. This must mean that the bird is 
trickier than I thought at first. Kevin Karlson 



----- Original Message -----

From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" 
To: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET, BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2016 12:29:23 AM
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 

Kevin
Not offended at all. What I find interesting in this issue is how people can 
see the same data so differently. Here is the head on bill photo of the 
California bird: 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/28985258470/in/album-72157671838970830/ 

That to me looks thin, narrow tipped. Typical of Western Sandpiper. In fact 
this bird is not that unusual in a large flock of Westerns here in California, 
it is not difficult to find a bird with a short bill like this. Not difficult 
at all. If that is a Semipalmated Sandpiper then they are quite a bit more 
common (by at least a factor of 10) than currently considered. I don't think 
this is the case, and the narrow tipped bill seals the deal for me. But I think 
you used this same photo to say the bill is wide, like a Semipalmated. I would 
argue that it is not. 

Here is one of your Semi photos, not in the same angle, but it does the trick 
http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Sesa+juvenile/Sesa+juv+head+on_+jbay+NY_+late+Aug+2016.jpg.html 

These are radically different bill shapes from above. 
I was not going to get back on here and argue the point, but since I wanted to 
make sure that you knew that I saw no harm done in the last email I thought I 
would give a different thought on this issue. 

Take care
Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET 

Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2016 2:36 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 

To all: I was going to leave this discussion after my last post due to my 
somewhat emotional response, but after nobody skewered me in public for my lack 
of tact and slightly strong statements, I am going to add a little bit to this 
discussion. I hope that the forum members are getting something from this 
discussion other than a few experts arguing their points in a less than civil 
manner, but I promise only information and a bunch more photos of juv 
Semipalmated Sanpipers, with a few juv Westerns to illustrate my points. I also 
put together a comparison photo of the Pacific peep with the photos that I 
posted the other day of a juv. Semi, and I agree with Nick that they really 
don't look alike, other than the bill length being noticeably longer 
proportionally on the juv. Semi compared to the head size. Considering that 
this Semi did not have a really long bill ( I estimate it at about 21 mm by 
using longer 24 mm bills in my photos as an upper limit model for my estimate), 
I would estimate the other peeps bill to be about 19 mm long, which is out of 
the question small for a male Western Sandpiper at any age. Link to new gallery 
is here: http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Sesa+juvenile/ 

I took the photos of the Pacific peep from the e-bird notes posted by a 
thinking forum member whose name I forget, and I don't want to leave this post. 
Thanks for the photos. 



I did find a juv Semi photographed in mid-August, however, that had a very 
similar bill shape, head shape and body shape to the Pacific peep, but more 
importantly, a similar rust scapular pattern and wing covert pattern, not to 
mention darker crown with grayer nape. I made a composite of these two birds to 
compare in direct comparison to see the bill shape similarities and scapular 
pattern similarities as well. The bill is a bit shorter on my Semi, but I feel 
strongly that it is a male, which limits the bill to 15-roughly 20mm). 


I want to comment here that I typically see juv Westerns with a very narrow 
rust scapular line compared to Semis that show a strong rust to buff scapular 
line that is often not narrow but often extend to 2 or more sets of scapulars, 
and even to the upper back. Rarely do I see juv Westerns with a bright back 
pattern (at least after about Aug.20) which makes the thin rust scapular line 
stand out that much more. I added two shots of juvenile Westerns to illustrate 
these points, with neither of these birds showing any replaced feathers on the 
upperparts. I also don't see the replace formative feathers on the back of the 
Pacific peep that Julian mentions, with the very small grayish feather on the 
mid-mantle seemingly juvenile feathers to my eye. 


I also put up a bunch of juv Semis to show the variability of this species in 
juv plumage, from very bright birds with strong rust feather edges to very dull 
birds with almost no color to the upperpart feather edges. I also put in a very 
long bodied, long winged juv Semipalmated Sandpiper that I photographed in NY 
on Aug.8, but one that shows a body shape and long-winged appearance not 
expected for Semi. The tertials on this bird have a great deal of spacing 
between them, which is not typical of Semi, and the wings extend noticeably 
past the longest tertial (which is also unusually long for a Semi), which is 
also not typical of Semi, especially males. This bird is somewhat similar in 
shape to the peep that generated so much controversy last year in Advanced Bird 
ID, and that had good birders suggesting a hybrid due to the long wings and 
body. 


I want to say that I may have been a bit harsh with my words towards Al (who I 
consider a good friend) and for that, I apologize, but Julian and I are such 
good friends that he showed the incredible class that he has when he sent me a 
private e-mail to say "no harm done, and a good discussion for learning". 
Thanks to my friend, Julian, for showing his professionalism and great 
friendship. 


Kevin Karlson 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrew Baksh"  
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 1:31:06 AM 
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 

Hi Kevin, 

I am traveling with limited access to e-mails and am only able to view images 
of the bird in question via mobile screen. I did pick up on this thread when it 
first kicked off and at first glance, thought the bird was interesting enough 
to consider RNST. 


After a closer look, I concluded it was just another juvenile SESA, like the 
ones we see at JBWR (Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge) and other shorebird sites in 
NYC. 


I won't repeat the salient points you articulated well in support of SESA. Only 
to add that my second look (this evening) at these images via phone has not 
changed my first impression. This bird has a lot going for it to support a 
juvenile SESA. 


Cheers, 

-------- 
"I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of 
others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence." ~ Frederick 
Douglass 


風 Swift as the wind 
林 Quiet as the forest 
火 Conquer like the fire 
山 Steady as the mountain 
Sun Tzu The Art of War 

> (__/) 
> (= '.'=) 
> (") _ (") 
> Sent from somewhere in the field using my mobile device! 

Andrew Baksh 
www.birdingdude.blogspot.com 

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 3:18 PM, karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET wrote: 
> 
> Nick and all: It is a juvenile Semipalmated Sandpiper, not a Western. Juv 
Semis are some of the most variable shorebirds in the world, and their juvenile 
plumage is all across the board. I have seen a few thousand juv Semis in the 
last few weeks, including a few with rusty upperpart edges restricted to the 
upper back and scapulars like your bird. A feature that eliminates Western and 
points right to Semi is the rusty cap that contrasts with the grayish nape, 
with Western showing a mostly uniform cap and nape that leans towards grayish 
tones, with their cap sometimes showing a slight reddish tone among a few black 
streaks, but never as red as juv Semi.Juv Westerns often show just a reddish 
scapular line, with very little other reddish fringes to any back feathers, 
although some show reddish edges to the mantle and upper back as well. The 
slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another plumage 
trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and the fine 
spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that is 
fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 

> 
> The bill is consistent with both species, so that is not helpful to the ID 
(although the head on shot shows the rounded, spatula shape of a Semi's bill, 
with Western usually showing a more pointed bill in a front view), but the even 
weight distribution in front of and behind the legs is consistent with Semi and 
not Western, which shows a chesty, front heavy weight distribution that causes 
them to tilt their bodies towards the rear when at rest. This bird shows a very 
compact, foreshortened look to the body that is typical of male Semis, with 
females typically showing a longer, more slender body and longer wings and 
tertials. The head is also very rounded, like a half circle, in Semi, with 
Western showing a squarish rear head shape that does not round at the rear 
crown, but angles downward towards the nape like a box. 

> 
> The very short tertials and primaries are consistent with Semi, with 
Red-necked Stint having a noticeably longer rear body that results in long 
tertials and primaries that extend past the tail. This bird's bill falls in the 
in between zone between male and female Semi, whose bill length ranges from 15 
- 25 mm, with David Mizrahi banding a Semi in Brazil this past January at 25 mm 
bill length, and who regularly bands very small number of Semis with 25 mm bill 
lengths. He has banded over 40,000 Semis near Cape May over the last 20+ years, 
so this 25 mm bill length in the new upper limit for that species, with much of 
the literature being incorrect in putting their upper bill limit at 23 mm. And 
while we see many Semis with bills like this in the East, I suspect that it is 
a bit more pointed and fine tipped that Semis that you are used to seeing on 
the Pacific Coast. In the shot that shows a female juv Western with this bird, 
you can see the overall brighter appearance to the entire upperpart feathers 
that is typical of juv Semi, with Western juvs usually looking a bit drab in 
comparison, and whose reddish scapular line usually contrasts strongly with the 
rest of the back. 

> 
> These long billed female Semis are usually found only on the Atlantic 
Seaboard in migration, and they breed in the Ungava region of Quebec. Semi bill 
lengths cline from West to East, so Alaska breeding birds may only have an 
upper bill length limit of about 21 mm, and eastern Canada breeding females 
having an upper bill length limit of 25mm, with 26 mm a long shot possibility. 
These long billed female Semis have longer bills than some small billed male 
Westerns ( I have photos of them together that shows this), and their bills are 
more drooping and finer tipped than small billed male Westerns as well. While 
this bill seems long and fine tipped for a Semi to West Coast birders, we see 
many Semis with way longer bills than this, and with more drooping tips as 
well. Kevin Karlson 

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> From: "Nick Lethaby"  
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:23:39 AM 
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 
> 
> All, 
> 
> I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 

> 
> Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 

> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830 
> 
> To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 

> 
> Regards, Nick Lethaby 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 
> 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 18:49:22 +0000
Al, thanks for the gracious response. This has been a great discussion about a 
bird that a number of expert birders disagree about, but I think the 
information shared will benefit many people, who can make their own conclusion 
based only on photos. I can guarantee that if we were all together in the field 
and could assess this bird against other Westerns and Semis that we would come 
to a conclusion that most of us would agree with. Photos cannot show the subtle 
differences in body language and motion that is often seen when the species are 
side by side (such as the longer tibia on Western often resulting in a 
different walking gait, and the longer outstretched neck feeding style of most 
Westerns compared to the more retracted neck feeding style of Semi), and a 
direct visual comparison in the field is so helpful to a conclusion of a 
problematic bird in photos like the Pacific peep. At least many people will now 
bring more information to the ID of these sometimes similar species in future 
sightings. If I saw this bird in real life and concluded that it was a Western 
male, I would have no problem admitting my mistake, and would learn from the 
experience. It is interesting, however, that most of the Pacific Coast birders 
feel that this bird is a Western, while all but Julian among East Coast experts 
that have responded to me privately or publicly feel that it is a normal Semi 
that we see on a regular basis every year. This must mean that the bird is 
trickier than I thought at first. Kevin Karlson 



----- Original Message -----

From: "Alvaro Jaramillo"  
To: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET, BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2016 12:29:23 AM 
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 

Kevin 
Not offended at all. What I find interesting in this issue is how people can 
see the same data so differently. Here is the head on bill photo of the 
California bird: 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/28985258470/in/album-72157671838970830/ 

That to me looks thin, narrow tipped. Typical of Western Sandpiper. In fact 
this bird is not that unusual in a large flock of Westerns here in California, 
it is not difficult to find a bird with a short bill like this. Not difficult 
at all. If that is a Semipalmated Sandpiper then they are quite a bit more 
common (by at least a factor of 10) than currently considered. I don't think 
this is the case, and the narrow tipped bill seals the deal for me. But I think 
you used this same photo to say the bill is wide, like a Semipalmated. I would 
argue that it is not. 

Here is one of your Semi photos, not in the same angle, but it does the trick 

http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Sesa+juvenile/Sesa+juv+head+on_+jbay+NY_+late+Aug+2016.jpg.html 

These are radically different bill shapes from above. 
I was not going to get back on here and argue the point, but since I wanted to 
make sure that you knew that I saw no harm done in the last email I thought I 
would give a different thought on this issue. 

Take care 
Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo 
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com 
www.alvarosadventures.com 

-----Original Message----- 
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET 

Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2016 2:36 PM 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 

To all: I was going to leave this discussion after my last post due to my 
somewhat emotional response, but after nobody skewered me in public for my lack 
of tact and slightly strong statements, I am going to add a little bit to this 
discussion. I hope that the forum members are getting something from this 
discussion other than a few experts arguing their points in a less than civil 
manner, but I promise only information and a bunch more photos of juv 
Semipalmated Sanpipers, with a few juv Westerns to illustrate my points. I also 
put together a comparison photo of the Pacific peep with the photos that I 
posted the other day of a juv. Semi, and I agree with Nick that they really 
don't look alike, other than the bill length being noticeably longer 
proportionally on the juv. Semi compared to the head size. Considering that 
this Semi did not have a really long bill ( I estimate it at about 21 mm by 
using longer 24 mm bills in my photos as an upper limit model for my estimate), 
I would estimate the other peeps bill to be about 19 mm long, which is out of 
the question small for a male Western Sandpiper at any age. Link to new gallery 
is here: http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Sesa+juvenile/ 

I took the photos of the Pacific peep from the e-bird notes posted by a 
thinking forum member whose name I forget, and I don't want to leave this post. 
Thanks for the photos. 



I did find a juv Semi photographed in mid-August, however, that had a very 
similar bill shape, head shape and body shape to the Pacific peep, but more 
importantly, a similar rust scapular pattern and wing covert pattern, not to 
mention darker crown with grayer nape. I made a composite of these two birds to 
compare in direct comparison to see the bill shape similarities and scapular 
pattern similarities as well. The bill is a bit shorter on my Semi, but I feel 
strongly that it is a male, which limits the bill to 15-roughly 20mm). 


I want to comment here that I typically see juv Westerns with a very narrow 
rust scapular line compared to Semis that show a strong rust to buff scapular 
line that is often not narrow but often extend to 2 or more sets of scapulars, 
and even to the upper back. Rarely do I see juv Westerns with a bright back 
pattern (at least after about Aug.20) which makes the thin rust scapular line 
stand out that much more. I added two shots of juvenile Westerns to illustrate 
these points, with neither of these birds showing any replaced feathers on the 
upperparts. I also don't see the replace formative feathers on the back of the 
Pacific peep that Julian mentions, with the very small grayish feather on the 
mid-mantle seemingly juvenile feathers to my eye. 


I also put up a bunch of juv Semis to show the variability of this species in 
juv plumage, from very bright birds with strong rust feather edges to very dull 
birds with almost no color to the upperpart feather edges. I also put in a very 
long bodied, long winged juv Semipalmated Sandpiper that I photographed in NY 
on Aug.8, but one that shows a body shape and long-winged appearance not 
expected for Semi. The tertials on this bird have a great deal of spacing 
between them, which is not typical of Semi, and the wings extend noticeably 
past the longest tertial (which is also unusually long for a Semi), which is 
also not typical of Semi, especially males. This bird is somewhat similar in 
shape to the peep that generated so much controversy last year in Advanced Bird 
ID, and that had good birders suggesting a hybrid due to the long wings and 
body. 


I want to say that I may have been a bit harsh with my words towards Al (who I 
consider a good friend) and for that, I apologize, but Julian and I are such 
good friends that he showed the incredible class that he has when he sent me a 
private e-mail to say "no harm done, and a good discussion for learning". 
Thanks to my friend, Julian, for showing his professionalism and great 
friendship. 


Kevin Karlson 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrew Baksh"  
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 1:31:06 AM 
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 

Hi Kevin, 

I am traveling with limited access to e-mails and am only able to view images 
of the bird in question via mobile screen. I did pick up on this thread when it 
first kicked off and at first glance, thought the bird was interesting enough 
to consider RNST. 


After a closer look, I concluded it was just another juvenile SESA, like the 
ones we see at JBWR (Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge) and other shorebird sites in 
NYC. 


I won't repeat the salient points you articulated well in support of SESA. Only 
to add that my second look (this evening) at these images via phone has not 
changed my first impression. This bird has a lot going for it to support a 
juvenile SESA. 


Cheers, 

-------- 
"I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of 
others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence." ~ Frederick 
Douglass 


風 Swift as the wind 
林 Quiet as the forest 
火 Conquer like the fire 
山 Steady as the mountain 
Sun Tzu The Art of War 

> (__/) 
> (= '.'=) 
> (") _ (") 
> Sent from somewhere in the field using my mobile device! 

Andrew Baksh 
www.birdingdude.blogspot.com 

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 3:18 PM, karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET wrote: 
> 
> Nick and all: It is a juvenile Semipalmated Sandpiper, not a Western. Juv 
Semis are some of the most variable shorebirds in the world, and their juvenile 
plumage is all across the board. I have seen a few thousand juv Semis in the 
last few weeks, including a few with rusty upperpart edges restricted to the 
upper back and scapulars like your bird. A feature that eliminates Western and 
points right to Semi is the rusty cap that contrasts with the grayish nape, 
with Western showing a mostly uniform cap and nape that leans towards grayish 
tones, with their cap sometimes showing a slight reddish tone among a few black 
streaks, but never as red as juv Semi.Juv Westerns often show just a reddish 
scapular line, with very little other reddish fringes to any back feathers, 
although some show reddish edges to the mantle and upper back as well. The 
slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another plumage 
trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and the fine 
spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that is 
fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 

> 
> The bill is consistent with both species, so that is not helpful to the ID 
(although the head on shot shows the rounded, spatula shape of a Semi's bill, 
with Western usually showing a more pointed bill in a front view), but the even 
weight distribution in front of and behind the legs is consistent with Semi and 
not Western, which shows a chesty, front heavy weight distribution that causes 
them to tilt their bodies towards the rear when at rest. This bird shows a very 
compact, foreshortened look to the body that is typical of male Semis, with 
females typically showing a longer, more slender body and longer wings and 
tertials. The head is also very rounded, like a half circle, in Semi, with 
Western showing a squarish rear head shape that does not round at the rear 
crown, but angles downward towards the nape like a box. 

> 
> The very short tertials and primaries are consistent with Semi, with 
Red-necked Stint having a noticeably longer rear body that results in long 
tertials and primaries that extend past the tail. This bird's bill falls in the 
in between zone between male and female Semi, whose bill length ranges from 15 
- 25 mm, with David Mizrahi banding a Semi in Brazil this past January at 25 mm 
bill length, and who regularly bands very small number of Semis with 25 mm bill 
lengths. He has banded over 40,000 Semis near Cape May over the last 20+ years, 
so this 25 mm bill length in the new upper limit for that species, with much of 
the literature being incorrect in putting their upper bill limit at 23 mm. And 
while we see many Semis with bills like this in the East, I suspect that it is 
a bit more pointed and fine tipped that Semis that you are used to seeing on 
the Pacific Coast. In the shot that shows a female juv Western with this bird, 
you can see the overall brighter appearance to the entire upperpart feathers 
that is typical of juv Semi, with Western juvs usually looking a bit drab in 
comparison, and whose reddish scapular line usually contrasts strongly with the 
rest of the back. 

> 
> These long billed female Semis are usually found only on the Atlantic 
Seaboard in migration, and they breed in the Ungava region of Quebec. Semi bill 
lengths cline from West to East, so Alaska breeding birds may only have an 
upper bill length limit of about 21 mm, and eastern Canada breeding females 
having an upper bill length limit of 25mm, with 26 mm a long shot possibility. 
These long billed female Semis have longer bills than some small billed male 
Westerns ( I have photos of them together that shows this), and their bills are 
more drooping and finer tipped than small billed male Westerns as well. While 
this bill seems long and fine tipped for a Semi to West Coast birders, we see 
many Semis with way longer bills than this, and with more drooping tips as 
well. Kevin Karlson 

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> From: "Nick Lethaby"  
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:23:39 AM 
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 
> 
> All, 
> 
> I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 

> 
> Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 

> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830 
> 
> To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 

> 
> Regards, Nick Lethaby 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 
> 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 

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Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 21:29:23 -0700
Kevin
 Not offended at all. What I find interesting in this issue is how people can 
see the same data so differently. Here is the head on bill photo of the 
California bird: 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/28985258470/in/album-72157671838970830/ 

That to me looks thin, narrow tipped. Typical of Western Sandpiper. In fact 
this bird is not that unusual in a large flock of Westerns here in California, 
it is not difficult to find a bird with a short bill like this. Not difficult 
at all. If that is a Semipalmated Sandpiper then they are quite a bit more 
common (by at least a factor of 10) than currently considered. I don't think 
this is the case, and the narrow tipped bill seals the deal for me. But I think 
you used this same photo to say the bill is wide, like a Semipalmated. I would 
argue that it is not. 

  Here is one of your Semi photos, not in the same angle, but it does the trick

http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Sesa+juvenile/Sesa+juv+head+on_+jbay+NY_+late+Aug+2016.jpg.html 

These are radically different bill shapes from above. 
 I was not going to get back on here and argue the point, but since I wanted to 
make sure that you knew that I saw no harm done in the last email I thought I 
would give a different thought on this issue. 

Take care
Alvaro 

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET 

Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2016 2:36 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated?

To all: I was going to leave this discussion after my last post due to my 
somewhat emotional response, but after nobody skewered me in public for my lack 
of tact and slightly strong statements, I am going to add a little bit to this 
discussion. I hope that the forum members are getting something from this 
discussion other than a few experts arguing their points in a less than civil 
manner, but I promise only information and a bunch more photos of juv 
Semipalmated Sanpipers, with a few juv Westerns to illustrate my points. I also 
put together a comparison photo of the Pacific peep with the photos that I 
posted the other day of a juv. Semi, and I agree with Nick that they really 
don't look alike, other than the bill length being noticeably longer 
proportionally on the juv. Semi compared to the head size. Considering that 
this Semi did not have a really long bill ( I estimate it at about 21 mm by 
using longer 24 mm bills in my photos as an upper limit model for my estimate), 
I would estimate the other peeps bill to be about 19 mm long, which is out of 
the question small for a male Western Sandpiper at any age. Link to new gallery 
is here: http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Sesa+juvenile/ 

I took the photos of the Pacific peep from the e-bird notes posted by a 
thinking forum member whose name I forget, and I don't want to leave this post. 
Thanks for the photos. 



I did find a juv Semi photographed in mid-August, however, that had a very 
similar bill shape, head shape and body shape to the Pacific peep, but more 
importantly, a similar rust scapular pattern and wing covert pattern, not to 
mention darker crown with grayer nape. I made a composite of these two birds to 
compare in direct comparison to see the bill shape similarities and scapular 
pattern similarities as well. The bill is a bit shorter on my Semi, but I feel 
strongly that it is a male, which limits the bill to 15-roughly 20mm). 


I want to comment here that I typically see juv Westerns with a very narrow 
rust scapular line compared to Semis that show a strong rust to buff scapular 
line that is often not narrow but often extend to 2 or more sets of scapulars, 
and even to the upper back. Rarely do I see juv Westerns with a bright back 
pattern (at least after about Aug.20) which makes the thin rust scapular line 
stand out that much more. I added two shots of juvenile Westerns to illustrate 
these points, with neither of these birds showing any replaced feathers on the 
upperparts. I also don't see the replace formative feathers on the back of the 
Pacific peep that Julian mentions, with the very small grayish feather on the 
mid-mantle seemingly juvenile feathers to my eye. 


I also put up a bunch of juv Semis to show the variability of this species in 
juv plumage, from very bright birds with strong rust feather edges to very dull 
birds with almost no color to the upperpart feather edges. I also put in a very 
long bodied, long winged juv Semipalmated Sandpiper that I photographed in NY 
on Aug.8, but one that shows a body shape and long-winged appearance not 
expected for Semi. The tertials on this bird have a great deal of spacing 
between them, which is not typical of Semi, and the wings extend noticeably 
past the longest tertial (which is also unusually long for a Semi), which is 
also not typical of Semi, especially males. This bird is somewhat similar in 
shape to the peep that generated so much controversy last year in Advanced Bird 
ID, and that had good birders suggesting a hybrid due to the long wings and 
body. 


I want to say that I may have been a bit harsh with my words towards Al (who I 
consider a good friend) and for that, I apologize, but Julian and I are such 
good friends that he showed the incredible class that he has when he sent me a 
private e-mail to say "no harm done, and a good discussion for learning". 
Thanks to my friend, Julian, for showing his professionalism and great 
friendship. 


Kevin Karlson 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Andrew Baksh"  
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 1:31:06 AM 
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 

Hi Kevin, 

I am traveling with limited access to e-mails and am only able to view images 
of the bird in question via mobile screen. I did pick up on this thread when it 
first kicked off and at first glance, thought the bird was interesting enough 
to consider RNST. 


After a closer look, I concluded it was just another juvenile SESA, like the 
ones we see at JBWR (Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge) and other shorebird sites in 
NYC. 


I won't repeat the salient points you articulated well in support of SESA. Only 
to add that my second look (this evening) at these images via phone has not 
changed my first impression. This bird has a lot going for it to support a 
juvenile SESA. 


Cheers, 

-------- 
"I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of 
others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence." ~ Frederick 
Douglass 


風 Swift as the wind 
林 Quiet as the forest 
火 Conquer like the fire 
山 Steady as the mountain 
Sun Tzu The Art of War 

> (__/) 
> (= '.'=) 
> (") _ (") 
> Sent from somewhere in the field using my mobile device! 

Andrew Baksh 
www.birdingdude.blogspot.com 

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 3:18 PM, karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET wrote: 
> 
> Nick and all: It is a juvenile Semipalmated Sandpiper, not a Western. Juv 
Semis are some of the most variable shorebirds in the world, and their juvenile 
plumage is all across the board. I have seen a few thousand juv Semis in the 
last few weeks, including a few with rusty upperpart edges restricted to the 
upper back and scapulars like your bird. A feature that eliminates Western and 
points right to Semi is the rusty cap that contrasts with the grayish nape, 
with Western showing a mostly uniform cap and nape that leans towards grayish 
tones, with their cap sometimes showing a slight reddish tone among a few black 
streaks, but never as red as juv Semi.Juv Westerns often show just a reddish 
scapular line, with very little other reddish fringes to any back feathers, 
although some show reddish edges to the mantle and upper back as well. The 
slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another plumage 
trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and the fine 
spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that is 
fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 

> 
> The bill is consistent with both species, so that is not helpful to the ID 
(although the head on shot shows the rounded, spatula shape of a Semi's bill, 
with Western usually showing a more pointed bill in a front view), but the even 
weight distribution in front of and behind the legs is consistent with Semi and 
not Western, which shows a chesty, front heavy weight distribution that causes 
them to tilt their bodies towards the rear when at rest. This bird shows a very 
compact, foreshortened look to the body that is typical of male Semis, with 
females typically showing a longer, more slender body and longer wings and 
tertials. The head is also very rounded, like a half circle, in Semi, with 
Western showing a squarish rear head shape that does not round at the rear 
crown, but angles downward towards the nape like a box. 

> 
> The very short tertials and primaries are consistent with Semi, with 
Red-necked Stint having a noticeably longer rear body that results in long 
tertials and primaries that extend past the tail. This bird's bill falls in the 
in between zone between male and female Semi, whose bill length ranges from 15 
- 25 mm, with David Mizrahi banding a Semi in Brazil this past January at 25 mm 
bill length, and who regularly bands very small number of Semis with 25 mm bill 
lengths. He has banded over 40,000 Semis near Cape May over the last 20+ years, 
so this 25 mm bill length in the new upper limit for that species, with much of 
the literature being incorrect in putting their upper bill limit at 23 mm. And 
while we see many Semis with bills like this in the East, I suspect that it is 
a bit more pointed and fine tipped that Semis that you are used to seeing on 
the Pacific Coast. In the shot that shows a female juv Western with this bird, 
you can see the overall brighter appearance to the entire upperpart feathers 
that is typical of juv Semi, with Western juvs usually looking a bit drab in 
comparison, and whose reddish scapular line usually contrasts strongly with the 
rest of the back. 

> 
> These long billed female Semis are usually found only on the Atlantic 
Seaboard in migration, and they breed in the Ungava region of Quebec. Semi bill 
lengths cline from West to East, so Alaska breeding birds may only have an 
upper bill length limit of about 21 mm, and eastern Canada breeding females 
having an upper bill length limit of 25mm, with 26 mm a long shot possibility. 
These long billed female Semis have longer bills than some small billed male 
Westerns ( I have photos of them together that shows this), and their bills are 
more drooping and finer tipped than small billed male Westerns as well. While 
this bill seems long and fine tipped for a Semi to West Coast birders, we see 
many Semis with way longer bills than this, and with more drooping tips as 
well. Kevin Karlson 

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> From: "Nick Lethaby"  
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:23:39 AM 
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 
> 
> All, 
> 
> I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 

> 
> Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 

> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830 
> 
> To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 

> 
> Regards, Nick Lethaby 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 
> 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

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Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2016 21:35:58 +0000
To all: I was going to leave this discussion after my last post due to my 
somewhat emotional response, but after nobody skewered me in public for my lack 
of tact and slightly strong statements, I am going to add a little bit to this 
discussion. I hope that the forum members are getting something from this 
discussion other than a few experts arguing their points in a less than civil 
manner, but I promise only information and a bunch more photos of juv 
Semipalmated Sanpipers, with a few juv Westerns to illustrate my points. I also 
put together a comparison photo of the Pacific peep with the photos that I 
posted the other day of a juv. Semi, and I agree with Nick that they really 
don't look alike, other than the bill length being noticeably longer 
proportionally on the juv. Semi compared to the head size. Considering that 
this Semi did not have a really long bill ( I estimate it at about 21 mm by 
using longer 24 mm bills in my photos as an upper limit model for my estimate), 
I would estimate the other peeps bill to be about 19 mm long, which is out of 
the question small for a male Western Sandpiper at any age. Link to new gallery 
is here: http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Sesa+juvenile/ 

I took the photos of the Pacific peep from the e-bird notes posted by a 
thinking forum member whose name I forget, and I don't want to leave this post. 
Thanks for the photos. 



I did find a juv Semi photographed in mid-August, however, that had a very 
similar bill shape, head shape and body shape to the Pacific peep, but more 
importantly, a similar rust scapular pattern and wing covert pattern, not to 
mention darker crown with grayer nape. I made a composite of these two birds to 
compare in direct comparison to see the bill shape similarities and scapular 
pattern similarities as well. The bill is a bit shorter on my Semi, but I feel 
strongly that it is a male, which limits the bill to 15-roughly 20mm). 


I want to comment here that I typically see juv Westerns with a very narrow 
rust scapular line compared to Semis that show a strong rust to buff scapular 
line that is often not narrow but often extend to 2 or more sets of scapulars, 
and even to the upper back. Rarely do I see juv Westerns with a bright back 
pattern (at least after about Aug.20) which makes the thin rust scapular line 
stand out that much more. I added two shots of juvenile Westerns to illustrate 
these points, with neither of these birds showing any replaced feathers on the 
upperparts. I also don't see the replace formative feathers on the back of the 
Pacific peep that Julian mentions, with the very small grayish feather on the 
mid-mantle seemingly juvenile feathers to my eye. 


I also put up a bunch of juv Semis to show the variability of this species in 
juv plumage, from very bright birds with strong rust feather edges to very dull 
birds with almost no color to the upperpart feather edges. I also put in a very 
long bodied, long winged juv Semipalmated Sandpiper that I photographed in NY 
on Aug.8, but one that shows a body shape and long-winged appearance not 
expected for Semi. The tertials on this bird have a great deal of spacing 
between them, which is not typical of Semi, and the wings extend noticeably 
past the longest tertial (which is also unusually long for a Semi), which is 
also not typical of Semi, especially males. This bird is somewhat similar in 
shape to the peep that generated so much controversy last year in Advanced Bird 
ID, and that had good birders suggesting a hybrid due to the long wings and 
body. 


I want to say that I may have been a bit harsh with my words towards Al (who I 
consider a good friend) and for that, I apologize, but Julian and I are such 
good friends that he showed the incredible class that he has when he sent me a 
private e-mail to say "no harm done, and a good discussion for learning". 
Thanks to my friend, Julian, for showing his professionalism and great 
friendship. 


Kevin Karlson 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Andrew Baksh"  
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 1:31:06 AM 
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 

Hi Kevin, 

I am traveling with limited access to e-mails and am only able to view images 
of the bird in question via mobile screen. I did pick up on this thread when it 
first kicked off and at first glance, thought the bird was interesting enough 
to consider RNST. 


After a closer look, I concluded it was just another juvenile SESA, like the 
ones we see at JBWR (Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge) and other shorebird sites in 
NYC. 


I won't repeat the salient points you articulated well in support of SESA. Only 
to add that my second look (this evening) at these images via phone has not 
changed my first impression. This bird has a lot going for it to support a 
juvenile SESA. 


Cheers, 

-------- 
"I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of 
others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence." ~ Frederick 
Douglass 


風 Swift as the wind 
林 Quiet as the forest 
火 Conquer like the fire 
山 Steady as the mountain 
Sun Tzu The Art of War 

> (__/) 
> (= '.'=) 
> (") _ (") 
> Sent from somewhere in the field using my mobile device! 

Andrew Baksh 
www.birdingdude.blogspot.com 

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 3:18 PM, karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET wrote: 
> 
> Nick and all: It is a juvenile Semipalmated Sandpiper, not a Western. Juv 
Semis are some of the most variable shorebirds in the world, and their juvenile 
plumage is all across the board. I have seen a few thousand juv Semis in the 
last few weeks, including a few with rusty upperpart edges restricted to the 
upper back and scapulars like your bird. A feature that eliminates Western and 
points right to Semi is the rusty cap that contrasts with the grayish nape, 
with Western showing a mostly uniform cap and nape that leans towards grayish 
tones, with their cap sometimes showing a slight reddish tone among a few black 
streaks, but never as red as juv Semi.Juv Westerns often show just a reddish 
scapular line, with very little other reddish fringes to any back feathers, 
although some show reddish edges to the mantle and upper back as well. The 
slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another plumage 
trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and the fine 
spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that is 
fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 

> 
> The bill is consistent with both species, so that is not helpful to the ID 
(although the head on shot shows the rounded, spatula shape of a Semi's bill, 
with Western usually showing a more pointed bill in a front view), but the even 
weight distribution in front of and behind the legs is consistent with Semi and 
not Western, which shows a chesty, front heavy weight distribution that causes 
them to tilt their bodies towards the rear when at rest. This bird shows a very 
compact, foreshortened look to the body that is typical of male Semis, with 
females typically showing a longer, more slender body and longer wings and 
tertials. The head is also very rounded, like a half circle, in Semi, with 
Western showing a squarish rear head shape that does not round at the rear 
crown, but angles downward towards the nape like a box. 

> 
> The very short tertials and primaries are consistent with Semi, with 
Red-necked Stint having a noticeably longer rear body that results in long 
tertials and primaries that extend past the tail. This bird's bill falls in the 
in between zone between male and female Semi, whose bill length ranges from 15 
- 25 mm, with David Mizrahi banding a Semi in Brazil this past January at 25 mm 
bill length, and who regularly bands very small number of Semis with 25 mm bill 
lengths. He has banded over 40,000 Semis near Cape May over the last 20+ years, 
so this 25 mm bill length in the new upper limit for that species, with much of 
the literature being incorrect in putting their upper bill limit at 23 mm. And 
while we see many Semis with bills like this in the East, I suspect that it is 
a bit more pointed and fine tipped that Semis that you are used to seeing on 
the Pacific Coast. In the shot that shows a female juv Western with this bird, 
you can see the overall brighter appearance to the entire upperpart feathers 
that is typical of juv Semi, with Western juvs usually looking a bit drab in 
comparison, and whose reddish scapular line usually contrasts strongly with the 
rest of the back. 

> 
> These long billed female Semis are usually found only on the Atlantic 
Seaboard in migration, and they breed in the Ungava region of Quebec. Semi bill 
lengths cline from West to East, so Alaska breeding birds may only have an 
upper bill length limit of about 21 mm, and eastern Canada breeding females 
having an upper bill length limit of 25mm, with 26 mm a long shot possibility. 
These long billed female Semis have longer bills than some small billed male 
Westerns ( I have photos of them together that shows this), and their bills are 
more drooping and finer tipped than small billed male Westerns as well. While 
this bill seems long and fine tipped for a Semi to West Coast birders, we see 
many Semis with way longer bills than this, and with more drooping tips as 
well. Kevin Karlson 

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> From: "Nick Lethaby"  
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:23:39 AM 
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 
> 
> All, 
> 
> I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 

> 
> Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 

> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830 
> 
> To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 

> 
> Regards, Nick Lethaby 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 
> 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 


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Subject: Re: UNSUBSCRIBE
From: Mike Feighner <feinerVogel94551 AT COMCAST.NET>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 10:00:50 -0700
Go to https://listserv.ksu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=BIRDWG01 and click on
UNSUSCRIBE on the right.
This information is at the archive link at the bottom of every message.

--
Mike Feighner
Livermore, California, Alameda County

http://www.linkedIn.com/in/michaelfeighner
--
"If we do an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, we will be a blind and
toothless nation." ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Pierre Deviche
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2016 8:10 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] UNSUBSCRIBE

Pierre Deviche, Ph.D.
Professor of Environmental Physiology, School of Life Sciences Senior
Sustainability Scientist, Global Institute of Sustainability Honors Faculty,
The Barrett Honors College Arizona State University Tempe, AZ 85287-4501,
USA

Email: deviche AT asu.edu
Phone: 480 965 0726
Fax: 480 965 6899


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Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: Michael O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 18:10:43 +0100
Hi,

Great to see another 'peep' discussion on this forum. It's been a while. Due to 
insufficient experience I won't bore you with my own thoughts on this bird's 
ID. But I'd like to comment on a couple of aspects of the discussion so far. 


Colour Saturation
That incredible shot by Jody Wells from Vancouver Island (10th August, 2016) 
referred to by Louis Bevier confirms 1st calendar WESA can show a rich, rusty 
cap, mantle and coverts in addition to a slightly more orange-hued upper breast 
suffusion. Moving from right to left one might imagine the transformation from 
a very fresh juvenile with rich chestnut crown, mantle and coverts suffusion 
towards the more faded 'classic' fall WESA, where the rusty colouration remains 
confined mainly to the upper scapulars. 


http://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/33395521?__hstc=60209138.403f8d1b61ce65550dce91755912a8da.1468162592648.1472690748234.1472692969695.107&__hssc=60209138.9.1472692969695&__hsfp=4144953239 


Taking on board Nick Lethaby's comments that the crown showed no obvious rusty 
cap in life I would agree however with Kevin Karlson's views that the images do 
in fact show a very slightly rusty tone to the cap, particularly towards the 
rear as it joins the nape. This is reflected in both, grainy, somewhat 
underexposed images by Glenn Kincaid and Jamie Chavez's better exposed shots. 
And I'm not just basing that on what I am observing on my screen. I have 
sampled and recorded the sRGB colour values directly. The hue is roughly the 
same (17, a reddish-orange) in both Glenn Kincaid's and Jamie Chavez's both 
well white-balanced images. These values do not change with the calibration 
settings of the screen - they are intrinsic to the image. 


So what is going on?  Is the cap rusty or not?

Colour saturation is a measure of the purity of a hue. Saturation declines 
towards grey, ironically much like the gradual fading of fresh plumage in 
waders. A camera sensor uses the information from green, red and blue channels 
to ascribe an overall hue and saturation level to an individual pixel. A 
camera's spectral sensitivity does not match our own exactly. In some cases a 
camera might be more sensitive to particular colours and saturation levels than 
that of our own eyes (also important to take account of field optics which 
might absorb some wavelengths) and the quality of the ambient light, which can 
effect the performance not just of the camera but our own eyes. I am always 
amazed by the amount of subtle colouration captured by the camera, much of 
which may go unnoticed during observation. Of course colours can be lost just 
as easily, due to lighting, exposure, dynamic range and other limitations in 
photography. 


Camera manufacturers also add their own spice and may boost saturation in 
different ways, perhaps at the risk of introducing false colour at times. A 
slight boost of saturation may help to reveal underlying colours but this needs 
to be judged with extreme care as it will also boost noise and add false colour 
to natural greys in particular. In any case I think the colour of the cap is 
probably a moot point as clearly either species can exhibit it. 


Lighting Impact on Head Pattern
Kevin Karlson commented "2) the cap is contrasting in all of Nick's (Glenn 
Kincaid's I take it) shots except for the one side view shot that shows a lot 
of noise from over production or over enlargement. This often happens when you 
over work a photo, which then loses key color and tonal qualities". I think in 
fact there is a simpler explanation for the apparent contrast between the crown 
and nape in most of Glenn Kincaid's shots and that one particular shot of it 
side on (image 29194899471_a4570ab122_o). This for me is purely a lighting 
effect. In almost all of Glenn Kincaid's shots the bird's head is tilted 
downwards, in shade, thus accentuating contrast between it's shaded crown and 
earcoverts and it's nape which is better illuminated. This 'capped and masked' 
feel reinforces it's SESA appearance. On the one image where the head is 
slightly more raised the crown is lifted partially of the gloom and hence its 
contrast is reduced. Returning again to that stunning image by Jody Wells. Note 
how contrasting the crown and ear-coverts appear on the bright, right hand 
WESA, compared with the left hand bird with it's head neatly tilted to catch 
the light. 


Thought these observations might be a help.  

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Baksh" 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Friday, 2 September, 2016 06:31:06
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated?

Hi Kevin,

I am traveling with limited access to e-mails and am only able to view images 
of the bird in question via mobile screen. I did pick up on this thread when it 
first kicked off and at first glance, thought the bird was interesting enough 
to consider RNST. 


After a closer look, I concluded it was just another juvenile SESA, like the 
ones we see at JBWR (Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge) and other shorebird sites in 
NYC. 


I won't repeat the salient points you articulated well in support of SESA. Only 
to add that my second look (this evening) at these images via phone has not 
changed my first impression. This bird has a lot going for it to support a 
juvenile SESA. 


Cheers,

--------
"I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of 
others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence." ~ Frederick 
Douglass 


風 Swift as the wind
林 Quiet as the forest
火 Conquer like the fire
山 Steady as the mountain
Sun Tzu  The Art of War

> (__/)
> (= '.'=)                                            
> (") _ (")                                     
> Sent from somewhere in the field using my mobile device! 

Andrew Baksh
www.birdingdude.blogspot.com

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 3:18 PM, karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET wrote:
> 
> Nick and all: It is a juvenile Semipalmated Sandpiper, not a Western. Juv 
Semis are some of the most variable shorebirds in the world, and their juvenile 
plumage is all across the board. I have seen a few thousand juv Semis in the 
last few weeks, including a few with rusty upperpart edges restricted to the 
upper back and scapulars like your bird. A feature that eliminates Western and 
points right to Semi is the rusty cap that contrasts with the grayish nape, 
with Western showing a mostly uniform cap and nape that leans towards grayish 
tones, with their cap sometimes showing a slight reddish tone among a few black 
streaks, but never as red as juv Semi.Juv Westerns often show just a reddish 
scapular line, with very little other reddish fringes to any back feathers, 
although some show reddish edges to the mantle and upper back as well. The 
slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another plumage 
trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and the fine 
spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that is 
fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 

> 
> The bill is consistent with both species, so that is not helpful to the ID 
(although the head on shot shows the rounded, spatula shape of a Semi's bill, 
with Western usually showing a more pointed bill in a front view), but the even 
weight distribution in front of and behind the legs is consistent with Semi and 
not Western, which shows a chesty, front heavy weight distribution that causes 
them to tilt their bodies towards the rear when at rest. This bird shows a very 
compact, foreshortened look to the body that is typical of male Semis, with 
females typically showing a longer, more slender body and longer wings and 
tertials. The head is also very rounded, like a half circle, in Semi, with 
Western showing a squarish rear head shape that does not round at the rear 
crown, but angles downward towards the nape like a box. 

> 
> The very short tertials and primaries are consistent with Semi, with 
Red-necked Stint having a noticeably longer rear body that results in long 
tertials and primaries that extend past the tail. This bird's bill falls in the 
in between zone between male and female Semi, whose bill length ranges from 15 
- 25 mm, with David Mizrahi banding a Semi in Brazil this past January at 25 mm 
bill length, and who regularly bands very small number of Semis with 25 mm bill 
lengths. He has banded over 40,000 Semis near Cape May over the last 20+ years, 
so this 25 mm bill length in the new upper limit for that species, with much of 
the literature being incorrect in putting their upper bill limit at 23 mm. And 
while we see many Semis with bills like this in the East, I suspect that it is 
a bit more pointed and fine tipped that Semis that you are used to seeing on 
the Pacific Coast. In the shot that shows a female juv Western with this bird, 
you can see the overall brighter appearance to the entire upperpart feathers 
that is typical of juv Semi, with Western juvs usually looking a bit drab in 
comparison, and whose reddish scapular line usually contrasts strongly with the 
rest of the back. 

> 
> These long billed female Semis are usually found only on the Atlantic 
Seaboard in migration, and they breed in the Ungava region of Quebec. Semi bill 
lengths cline from West to East, so Alaska breeding birds may only have an 
upper bill length limit of about 21 mm, and eastern Canada breeding females 
having an upper bill length limit of 25mm, with 26 mm a long shot possibility. 
These long billed female Semis have longer bills than some small billed male 
Westerns ( I have photos of them together that shows this), and their bills are 
more drooping and finer tipped than small billed male Westerns as well. While 
this bill seems long and fine tipped for a Semi to West Coast birders, we see 
many Semis with way longer bills than this, and with more drooping tips as 
well. Kevin Karlson 

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> From: "Nick Lethaby"  
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:23:39 AM 
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 
> 
> All, 
> 
> I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 

> 
> Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 

> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830 
> 
> To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 

> 
> Regards, Nick Lethaby 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 
> 
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
From: Pierre Deviche <Pierre.Deviche AT ASU.EDU>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 15:09:33 +0000
Pierre Deviche, Ph.D.
Professor of Environmental Physiology, School of Life Sciences
Senior Sustainability Scientist, Global Institute of Sustainability
Honors Faculty, The Barrett Honors College
Arizona State University
Tempe, AZ 85287-4501, USA

Email: deviche AT asu.edu
Phone: 480 965 0726
Fax: 480 965 6899


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: julian hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2016 02:23:06 +0000
Hi Kevin, et al.,
I took no personal offence at all to the reply and I hoped my email was worded 
well enough to promote discussion rather than arguement. I think it worth 
clarifying some points so as my initial email is more clear. 


I think Kevin may have missed my point in refuting my bullet points. Those 
points were not meant to be exclusive to Western and as such I agree with Kevin 
that a Semi-p could possibly show those features (and many do). That is where I 
was careful to note that there is a lot of overlap in those (and other)  
features. But, the bird has to be one or the other and as such those bullet 
points will be features of whatever species "we" decide it is. In my personal 
experience, those features are what I found troubling or helpful in 
determining/eliminating species. 


I appreciate that he expounded on those to help further my views and the debate 
in general. 


However, the opinions were clearly mine, so the comments about structure being 
ambiguous were my assessments of this bird, and not those in general and I 
maintain that I found the structure of this bird unhelpful. It is a subjective 
assessment of the observer and nothing else. 


The scapular pattern, particularly the shape of the edges of the anchor, I find 
useful on tough birds, agreeing with Kevin that some Semi-ps don't show obvious 
indented/concave edges. However, I'll stick with "old" fieldmarks if they hold 
up in my experience, especially if those feathers also seem a bit more 
spear-shaped than the broad, rounded feathers of a juv Semip. 


Formative feathers in the last week of August, strikes me personally as odd. I 
have seen the odd bird in molt in fall, but overall, if you add in probability 
that this is an unusually small-billed Semi, in early molt etc, etc, it raises 
some questions to consider. That's all I was getting at in my initial e-mail - 
certainly not presenting a case for or against.  For transparency's sake, I am 
in the Western camp. 


Respectfully,

Julian
 Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519 
 www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com 

 On Thursday, September 1, 2016 4:59 PM, "karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET" 
 wrote: 

 

 Nick and all: I have uploaded to my website three photos of a juvenile 
Semipalmated Sandpiper that I took last week at Jamaica Bay in NYC, where we 
had about 500 juvenile Semis and about 4 Western Sandpiper juveniles. This bird 
could be substituted for Nick's Semi from out west without anyone noticing 
since it is so close with respect to body and bill shape and to plumage 
patterns, other than Nick's bird being a bit more reddish on the upperparts, 
but that could be a result of processing. This bird did not even draw a second 
look among the leaders at the Shorebird festival since it is a classic juvenile 
Semi that does not resemble a Western juvenile in the least, at least to those 
who see these birds all the time and actually take the time to look at them. 
The head on shot that I posted shows the typical spatula shaped tip to the bill 
of a Semi when seen head on versus the more pointed, finer tipped bill of a 
Western. One of Nick's photos shows this feature clearly. 

http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Sesa+juvenile/ 

I am going to refute some of the points made by Julian, who is a good friend, 
and my comments are not meant to be personal, but just newer information that 
negates some of the old school points of view that have been shown to be 
inconsistent or not pertinent to the ID of Semipalmated Sandpiper. And for Al's 
comments on circular reasoning for this ID, I find them strange considering the 
points of ID that I shared with the group. Rather than drawing on an analysis 
of where the Semis are seen in the East, and the huge numbers that we get 
compared to Westerns in NYC, and also on the competency of the many qualified 
birders who study these birds, such as Tom Burke, Shai Mitra and Andrew Baksh, 
Al decided to make a blind statement that infers that maybe we are 
misidentifying these juvenile Semis that could possibly be Westerns. If the 
bird from the Pacific Coast and my bird shown in the link above were close to 
being a Western Sandpiper juvenile, I could see his reasoning, but we see 
dozens of birds like both of these every day at Jamaica Bay in NYC, and when a 
few Westerns show up in the same view, which happens every now and then, the 
differences are so dramatic that even medium level birders have no trouble 
identifying them. And to deny the multiple points that I pointed out in my 
previous transmission is even stranger, since I provided a number of 
irrefutable points that point to a juvenile Semi, and nothing that suggests a 
juvenile Western except for the profile of the bill from a side view. In cases 
like this, it is better to stick to solid, concrete ID points and not stray 
into psychological points of "circular reasoning" based on possible mass 
misidentification by numbers of very qualified birders, if that is what he 
meant. 


To refute some of Julian's points: 1) The structural features of this bird are 
not ambiguous but typical of a Semi with a compact, forshortened body that 
includes very short tertials and primaries that barely reach the tail tip. 
Larger female Semis have more elongated bodies and wings, like male Westerns, 
but very compact birds like this only point to Semi. And the equal weight 
distribution on the side view shot is perfect for Semi, with Western having 
more chest-heavy, front-weighted body structure. The head shape is also typical 
of Semi, with a half circle, half dome shape compared to Western's squarer rear 
crown shape. These physical differences are not easy to assess for some people, 
and it takes a lot of comparisons to really see these differences. ( See 
comparison photos of both species in the link above to my website to see these 
points illustrated) 

2) the cap is contrasting in all of Nick's shots except for the one side view 
shot that shows a lot of noise from over production or over enlargement. This 
often happens when you over work a photo, which then loses key color and tonal 
qualities. My monitor is calibrated on a regular basis for color and tonality 
because I am a professional photographer, so I can confidently say that all of 
Nick's shots show a redder/buffier crown compared to the grayer nape. Western 
often shows no contrast at all between the crown and nape, while Nick's bird 
shows it clearly on all but the one photo. 

3)the peach colored blush on the sides of the upper breast with fine spotting 
within is a common plumage trait of young juvenile Semis, and not Westerns. I 
am not sure why this made it to Julian's list of pro-Western features, since 
they typically don't show this as juveniles, while Semis commonly do (see my 
photos in the link above) 

4) the expected anchor-shaped markings on the lower scapulars of juvenile Semi 
that was used so strongly in earlier years is not a consistent plumage trait 
for these birds, and numerous juv Semis that I see don't show them at all (see 
my photos in the above link). They often show a dark line to the lower 
scapulars with a smudge at the base rather than the diagnostic anchor shaped 
markings. The variability in this field mark is across the board, with some 
birds showing the distinctive anchors, and others (like my bird above) showing 
none of those markings. 

5)the presence of gray formative feathers on the upperparts is not exclusive to 
Western Sandpiper, with Semi often replacing their non-essential upperpart 
feathers with nonbreeding ones in September. Western juveniles replace their 
entire compliment of upperpart feathers very early compared to Semi, often by 
late September, if they are close to their wintering areas in the Mid-Atlantic 
states. Juvenile Westerns that are migrating to much more southerly regions 
will not replace critical feathers such as wing coverts, tertials and primaries 
until they reach their wintering areas, which accounts for the different molt 
strategy of these birds. 


Consequently, I find none of Julian's pro-Western comments to be exclusive to 
that species given the knowledge base that exists today for Semipalmated 
Sandpiper juveniles. Sorry Julian, but I need to share this information. Due to 
the possible feedback from my comments here, I posted a few comparison shots of 
juvenile Western and Semi on my website with the link above. These shots show 
the points that I made. I tried to download the shots from Nick's post to put 
into a comparison photo with my bird, but Flickr prevented me from doing so. 





----- Original Message -----

From: "Nick Lethaby"  
To: karlson3 AT comcast.net 
Cc: "NBHC Frontiers"  
Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2016 1:59:00 PM 
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 



Kevin, 



Thanks for the detailed analysis. One item I disagree with is the assertion the 
bird has a rusty cap contrasting with the gray nape. The photos (at least on my 
monitor) don’t show this and it was also not visible in the field. I 
specifically checked that point because brighter Semis usually are bright on 
the cap and the mantle/scaps just as you pointed out. So I feel the cap color 
is actually supportive of Western! 




Since others have asked me about feedback, I think opinions are at about 4 for 
Western and 3 for Semipalmated so far, all from well qualified birders. 




Regards, 



Nick 




From: karlson3 AT comcast.net [mailto:karlson3 AT comcast.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 3:18 PM 
To: Lethaby, Nick 
Cc: Frontiers, NBHC 
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 





Nick and all: It is a juvenile Semipalmated Sandpiper, not a Western. Juv Semis 
are some of the most variable shorebirds in the world, and their juvenile 
plumage is all across the board. I have seen a few thousand juv Semis in the 
last few weeks, including a few with rusty upperpart edges restricted to the 
upper back and scapulars like your bird. A feature that eliminates Western and 
points right to Semi is the rusty cap that contrasts with the grayish nape, 
with Western showing a mostly uniform cap and nape that leans towards grayish 
tones, with their cap sometimes showing a slight reddish tone among a few black 
streaks, but never as red as juv Semi.Juv Westerns often show just a reddish 
scapular line, with very little other reddish fringes to any back feathers, 
although some show reddish edges to the mantle and upper back as well. The 
slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another plumage 
trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and the fine 
spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that is 
fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 






The bill is consistent with both species, so that is not helpful to the ID 
(although the head on shot shows the rounded, spatula shape of a Semi's bill, 
with Western usually showing a more pointed bill in a front view), but the even 
weight distribution in front of and behind the legs is consistent with Semi and 
not Western, which shows a chesty, front heavy weight distribution that causes 
them to tilt their bodies towards the rear when at rest. This bird shows a very 
compact, foreshortened look to the body that is typical of male Semis, with 
females typically showing a longer, more slender body and longer wings and 
tertials. The head is also very rounded, like a half circle, in Semi, with 
Western showing a squarish rear head shape that does not round at the rear 
crown, but angles downward towards the nape like a box. 






The very short tertials and primaries are consistent with Semi, with Red-necked 
Stint having a noticeably longer rear body that results in long tertials and 
primaries that extend past the tail. This bird's bill falls in the in between 
zone between male and female Semi, whose bill length ranges from 15 - 25 mm, 
with David Mizrahi banding a Semi in Brazil this past January at 25 mm bill 
length, and who regularly bands very small number of Semis with 25 mm bill 
lengths. He has banded over 40,000 Semis near Cape May over the last 20+ years, 
so this 25 mm bill length in the new upper limit for that species, with much of 
the literature being incorrect in putting their upper bill limit at 23 mm. And 
while we see many Semis with bills like this in the East, I suspect that it is 
a bit more pointed and fine tipped that Semis that you are used to seeing on 
the Pacific Coast. In the shot that shows a female juv Western with this bird, 
you can see the overall brighter appearance to the entire upperpart feathers 
that is typical of juv Semi, with Western juvs usually looking a bit drab in 
comparison, and whose reddish scapular line usually contrasts strongly with the 
rest of the back. 






These long billed female Semis are usually found only on the Atlantic Seaboard 
in migration, and they breed in the Ungava region of Quebec. Semi bill lengths 
cline from West to East, so Alaska breeding birds may only have an upper bill 
length limit of about 21 mm, and eastern Canada breeding females having an 
upper bill length limit of 25mm, with 26 mm a long shot possibility. These long 
billed female Semis have longer bills than some small billed male Westerns ( I 
have photos of them together that shows this), and their bills are more 
drooping and finer tipped than small billed male Westerns as well. While this 
bill seems long and fine tipped for a Semi to West Coast birders, we see many 
Semis with way longer bills than this, and with more drooping tips as well. 
Kevin Karlson 




----- Original Message -----



From: "Nick Lethaby" < nlethaby AT TI.COM > 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:23:39 AM 
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 





All, 





I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 






Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 






https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830 





To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 






Regards, Nick Lethaby 





Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 





Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

   

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: Jamie Chavez <almiyi AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 23:36:39 +0000
For whatever it's worth, I have additional images of Nick's bird at the
following eBird checklist link (scroll down to "peep species"), although
this probably won't improve on the photos originally provided.

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S31288132

Jamie Chavez
Santa Maria, CA

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 2:25 PM Lethaby, Nick  wrote:

> Julian,
>
> I guess the time you are spending on that LT Jaeger blog post has caused
> you to fall way behind on peep identification. LOL.
>
> I don't see the similarity between Kevin's bird and mine at all!
>
> Nick
>
>
> --
Jamie M. Chavez
Santa Maria, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 21:25:44 +0000
Julian,

I guess the time you are spending on that LT Jaeger blog post has caused you to 
fall way behind on peep identification. LOL. 


I don't see the similarity between Kevin's bird and mine at all!

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of julian hough 

Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 11:08 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated?

Having read Kevin’s post, I thinkthis bird does present a couple of queries 
for myself at least and I wonder perhapsif this may be a bit trickier than it 
first presents? 



 
There have been several"troublesome' birds in the UK in the past few years. The 
main stumblingblock was how plumage tones in different photos of the same bird 
changed theappearance, making it more Western-like or more Semi-p-like 
depending on lightconditions, posture, etc, etc. 



 
My main issue with this individualis the color of the scaps - they aren't 
that orange-red and arecloser to some bright Semi-ps. Also, I find any 
structural features somewhatambiguous and unhelpful in swaying me either way. 



 
So, appreciating overlap and theimpact of the vagaries of light, a couple of 
features that may merit discussion(since they may be construed by some as more 
pro-Western than Semi-p) are: 


·      The bill is short and pointed 

·      The lateral areas of the crown look greyish without toomuch of a 
contrasting capped effect (at least on my monitor) 


·      The blush on the breast is overlain with delineatedstreaks at the 
carpal area 


·      The shape of the dark anchors on the rear, lowerscapulars are more 
convex in shape 


·      There are some grey, formative feathers appearing inthe upperparts 



 
Assuming we can troll the interwebsand all find photos of either species that 
look like the other species, and show all of the above variations in either 
species, it willboil down to a collective suite of characters that identify 
this bird. t I think some ofthe points above might be worth discussing, and 
eliminating, as it relates tothe id as a Semi-p. 


 Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519  www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com 

 On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 6:18 PM, "karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET" 
 wrote: 

 

 Nick and all: It is a juvenile Semipalmated Sandpiper, not a Western. Juv 
Semis are some of the most variable shorebirds in the world, and their juvenile 
plumage is all across the board. I have seen a few thousand juv Semis in the 
last few weeks, including a few with rusty upperpart edges restricted to the 
upper back and scapulars like your bird. A feature that eliminates Western and 
points right to Semi is the rusty cap that contrasts with the grayish nape, 
with Western showing a mostly uniform cap and nape that leans towards grayish 
tones, with their cap sometimes showing a slight reddish tone among a few black 
streaks, but never as red as juv Semi.Juv Westerns often show just a reddish 
scapular line, with very little other reddish fringes to any back feathers, 
although some show reddish edges to the mantle and upper back as well. The 
slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another plumage 
trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and the fine 
spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that is 
fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 


The bill is consistent with both species, so that is not helpful to the ID 
(although the head on shot shows the rounded, spatula shape of a Semi's bill, 
with Western usually showing a more pointed bill in a front view), but the even 
weight distribution in front of and behind the legs is consistent with Semi and 
not Western, which shows a chesty, front heavy weight distribution that causes 
them to tilt their bodies towards the rear when at rest. This bird shows a very 
compact, foreshortened look to the body that is typical of male Semis, with 
females typically showing a longer, more slender body and longer wings and 
tertials. The head is also very rounded, like a half circle, in Semi, with 
Western showing a squarish rear head shape that does not round at the rear 
crown, but angles downward towards the nape like a box. 


The very short tertials and primaries are consistent with Semi, with Red-necked 
Stint having a noticeably longer rear body that results in long tertials and 
primaries that extend past the tail. This bird's bill falls in the in between 
zone between male and female Semi, whose bill length ranges from 15 - 25 mm, 
with David Mizrahi banding a Semi in Brazil this past January at 25 mm bill 
length, and who regularly bands very small number of Semis with 25 mm bill 
lengths. He has banded over 40,000 Semis near Cape May over the last 20+ years, 
so this 25 mm bill length in the new upper limit for that species, with much of 
the literature being incorrect in putting their upper bill limit at 23 mm. And 
while we see many Semis with bills like this in the East, I suspect that it is 
a bit more pointed and fine tipped that Semis that you are used to seeing on 
the Pacific Coast. In the shot that shows a female juv Western with this bird, 
you can see the overall brighter appearance to the entire upperpart feathers 
that is typical of juv Semi, with Western juvs usually looking a bit drab in 
comparison, and whose reddish scapular line usually contrasts strongly with the 
rest of the back. 


These long billed female Semis are usually found only on the Atlantic Seaboard 
in migration, and they breed in the Ungava region of Quebec. Semi bill lengths 
cline from West to East, so Alaska breeding birds may only have an upper bill 
length limit of about 21 mm, and eastern Canada breeding females having an 
upper bill length limit of 25mm, with 26 mm a long shot possibility. These long 
billed female Semis have longer bills than some small billed male Westerns ( I 
have photos of them together that shows this), and their bills are more 
drooping and finer tipped than small billed male Westerns as well. While this 
bill seems long and fine tipped for a Semi to West Coast birders, we see many 
Semis with way longer bills than this, and with more drooping tips as well. 
Kevin Karlson 


----- Original Message -----

From: "Nick Lethaby"  
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:23:39 AM 
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 

All, 

I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 


Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830 

To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 


Regards, Nick Lethaby 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

   

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 21:22:22 +0000
Kevin,

I will ask the photographer to make these photographs downloadable.

I fully agree the bird in your shots is a Semipalmated but I don’t agree it 
is identical to the bird we saw, otherwise I wouldn’t have posted it here. 
Your bird show distinctly less rufous scaps (these were very apparent in the 
field on my bird and the reason I took a close look at the bird), generally 
darker centers to the wing-coverts (which is often a good way to distinguish 
Semipalmated from Western, which is usually more extensively gray on the 
wing-coverts), and show the cap/nape contrast in at least one shot. 


IMO, the more interesting aspect in this discussion not so much the features we 
are using but the interpretation on whether it has them or not. 


Thanks for keeping the discussion going.

NIck

From: karlson3 AT comcast.net [mailto:karlson3 AT comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 1:59 PM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: Frontiers, NBHC
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated?

Nick and all: I have uploaded to my website three photos of a juvenile 
Semipalmated Sandpiper that I took last week at Jamaica Bay in NYC, where we 
had about 500 juvenile Semis and about 4 Western Sandpiper juveniles. This bird 
could be substituted for Nick's Semi from out west without anyone noticing 
since it is so close with respect to body and bill shape and to plumage 
patterns, other than Nick's bird being a bit more reddish on the upperparts, 
but that could be a result of processing. This bird did not even draw a second 
look among the leaders at the Shorebird festival since it is a classic juvenile 
Semi that does not resemble a Western juvenile in the least, at least to those 
who see these birds all the time and actually take the time to look at them. 
The head on shot that I posted shows the typical spatula shaped tip to the bill 
of a Semi when seen head on versus the more pointed, finer tipped bill of a 
Western. One of Nick's photos shows this feature clearly. 

http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Sesa+juvenile/

I am going to refute some of the points made by Julian, who is a good friend, 
and my comments are not meant to be personal, but just newer information that 
negates some of the old school points of view that have been shown to be 
inconsistent or not pertinent to the ID of Semipalmated Sandpiper. And for Al's 
comments on circular reasoning for this ID, I find them strange considering the 
points of ID that I shared with the group. Rather than drawing on an analysis 
of where the Semis are seen in the East, and the huge numbers that we get 
compared to Westerns in NYC, and also on the competency of the many qualified 
birders who study these birds, such as Tom Burke, Shai Mitra and Andrew Baksh, 
Al decided to make a blind statement that infers that maybe we are 
misidentifying these juvenile Semis that could possibly be Westerns. If the 
bird from the Pacific Coast and my bird shown in the link above were close to 
being a Western Sandpiper juvenile, I could see his reasoning, but we see 
dozens of birds like both of these every day at Jamaica Bay in NYC, and when a 
few Westerns show up in the same view, which happens every now and then, the 
differences are so dramatic that even medium level birders have no trouble 
identifying them. And to deny the multiple points that I pointed out in my 
previous transmission is even stranger, since I provided a number of 
irrefutable points that point to a juvenile Semi, and nothing that suggests a 
juvenile Western except for the profile of the bill from a side view. In cases 
like this, it is better to stick to solid, concrete ID points and not stray 
into psychological points of "circular reasoning" based on possible mass 
misidentification by numbers of very qualified birders, if that is what he 
meant. 


To refute some of Julian's points: 1) The structural features of this bird are 
not ambiguous but typical of a Semi with a compact, forshortened body that 
includes very short tertials and primaries that barely reach the tail tip. 
Larger female Semis have more elongated bodies and wings, like male Westerns, 
but very compact birds like this only point to Semi. And the equal weight 
distribution on the side view shot is perfect for Semi, with Western having 
more chest-heavy, front-weighted body structure. The head shape is also typical 
of Semi, with a half circle, half dome shape compared to Western's squarer rear 
crown shape. These physical differences are not easy to assess for some people, 
and it takes a lot of comparisons to really see these differences. ( See 
comparison photos of both species in the link above to my website to see these 
points illustrated) 

2) the cap is contrasting in all of Nick's shots except for the one side view 
shot that shows a lot of noise from over production or over enlargement. This 
often happens when you over work a photo, which then loses key color and tonal 
qualities. My monitor is calibrated on a regular basis for color and tonality 
because I am a professional photographer, so I can confidently say that all of 
Nick's shots show a redder/buffier crown compared to the grayer nape. Western 
often shows no contrast at all between the crown and nape, while Nick's bird 
shows it clearly on all but the one photo. 

3)the peach colored blush on the sides of the upper breast with fine spotting 
within is a common plumage trait of young juvenile Semis, and not Westerns. I 
am not sure why this made it to Julian's list of pro-Western features, since 
they typically don't show this as juveniles, while Semis commonly do (see my 
photos in the link above) 

4) the expected anchor-shaped markings on the lower scapulars of juvenile Semi 
that was used so strongly in earlier years is not a consistent plumage trait 
for these birds, and numerous juv Semis that I see don't show them at all (see 
my photos in the above link). They often show a dark line to the lower 
scapulars with a smudge at the base rather than the diagnostic anchor shaped 
markings. The variability in this field mark is across the board, with some 
birds showing the distinctive anchors, and others (like my bird above) showing 
none of those markings. 

5)the presence of gray formative feathers on the upperparts is not exclusive to 
Western Sandpiper, with Semi often replacing their non-essential upperpart 
feathers with nonbreeding ones in September. Western juveniles replace their 
entire compliment of upperpart feathers very early compared to Semi, often by 
late September, if they are close to their wintering areas in the Mid-Atlantic 
states. Juvenile Westerns that are migrating to much more southerly regions 
will not replace critical feathers such as wing coverts, tertials and primaries 
until they reach their wintering areas, which accounts for the different molt 
strategy of these birds. 


Consequently, I find none of Julian's pro-Western comments to be exclusive to 
that species given the knowledge base that exists today for Semipalmated 
Sandpiper juveniles. Sorry Julian, but I need to share this information. Due to 
the possible feedback from my comments here, I posted a few comparison shots of 
juvenile Western and Semi on my website with the link above. These shots show 
the points that I made. I tried to download the shots from Nick's post to put 
into a comparison photo with my bird, but Flickr prevented me from doing so. 





________________________________
From: "Nick Lethaby" >
To: karlson3 AT comcast.net
Cc: "NBHC Frontiers" 
> 

Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2016 1:59:00 PM
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated?

Kevin,

Thanks for the detailed analysis. One item I disagree with is the assertion the 
bird has a rusty cap contrasting with the gray nape. The photos (at least on my 
monitor) don’t show this and it was also not visible in the field. I 
specifically checked that point because brighter Semis usually are bright on 
the cap and the mantle/scaps just as you pointed out. So I feel the cap color 
is actually supportive of Western! 


Since others have asked me about feedback, I think opinions are at about 4 for 
Western and 3 for Semipalmated so far, all from well qualified birders. 


Regards,

Nick

From: karlson3 AT comcast.net 
[mailto:karlson3 AT comcast.net] 

Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 3:18 PM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: Frontiers, NBHC
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated?

Nick and all: It is a juvenile Semipalmated Sandpiper, not a Western. Juv Semis 
are some of the most variable shorebirds in the world, and their juvenile 
plumage is all across the board. I have seen a few thousand juv Semis in the 
last few weeks, including a few with rusty upperpart edges restricted to the 
upper back and scapulars like your bird. A feature that eliminates Western and 
points right to Semi is the rusty cap that contrasts with the grayish nape, 
with Western showing a mostly uniform cap and nape that leans towards grayish 
tones, with their cap sometimes showing a slight reddish tone among a few black 
streaks, but never as red as juv Semi.Juv Westerns often show just a reddish 
scapular line, with very little other reddish fringes to any back feathers, 
although some show reddish edges to the mantle and upper back as well. The 
slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another plumage 
trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and the fine 
spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that is 
fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 


The bill is consistent with both species, so that is not helpful to the ID 
(although the head on shot shows the rounded, spatula shape of a Semi's bill, 
with Western usually showing a more pointed bill in a front view), but the even 
weight distribution in front of and behind the legs is consistent with Semi and 
not Western, which shows a chesty, front heavy weight distribution that causes 
them to tilt their bodies towards the rear when at rest. This bird shows a very 
compact, foreshortened look to the body that is typical of male Semis, with 
females typically showing a longer, more slender body and longer wings and 
tertials. The head is also very rounded, like a half circle, in Semi, with 
Western showing a squarish rear head shape that does not round at the rear 
crown, but angles downward towards the nape like a box. 


The very short tertials and primaries are consistent with Semi, with Red-necked 
Stint having a noticeably longer rear body that results in long tertials and 
primaries that extend past the tail. This bird's bill falls in the in between 
zone between male and female Semi, whose bill length ranges from 15 - 25 mm, 
with David Mizrahi banding a Semi in Brazil this past January at 25 mm bill 
length, and who regularly bands very small number of Semis with 25 mm bill 
lengths. He has banded over 40,000 Semis near Cape May over the last 20+ years, 
so this 25 mm bill length in the new upper limit for that species, with much of 
the literature being incorrect in putting their upper bill limit at 23 mm. And 
while we see many Semis with bills like this in the East, I suspect that it is 
a bit more pointed and fine tipped that Semis that you are used to seeing on 
the Pacific Coast. In the shot that shows a female juv Western with this bird, 
you can see the overall brighter appearance to the entire upperpart feathers 
that is typical of juv Semi, with Western juvs usually looking a bit drab in 
comparison, and whose reddish scapular line usually contrasts strongly with the 
rest of the back. 


These long billed female Semis are usually found only on the Atlantic Seaboard 
in migration, and they breed in the Ungava region of Quebec. Semi bill lengths 
cline from West to East, so Alaska breeding birds may only have an upper bill 
length limit of about 21 mm, and eastern Canada breeding females having an 
upper bill length limit of 25mm, with 26 mm a long shot possibility. These long 
billed female Semis have longer bills than some small billed male Westerns ( I 
have photos of them together that shows this), and their bills are more 
drooping and finer tipped than small billed male Westerns as well. While this 
bill seems long and fine tipped for a Semi to West Coast birders, we see many 
Semis with way longer bills than this, and with more drooping tips as well. 
Kevin Karlson 


________________________________
From: "Nick Lethaby" >
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:23:39 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated?

All,

I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 


Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830

To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 


Regards, Nick Lethaby

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 20:59:17 +0000
Nick and all: I have uploaded to my website three photos of a juvenile 
Semipalmated Sandpiper that I took last week at Jamaica Bay in NYC, where we 
had about 500 juvenile Semis and about 4 Western Sandpiper juveniles. This bird 
could be substituted for Nick's Semi from out west without anyone noticing 
since it is so close with respect to body and bill shape and to plumage 
patterns, other than Nick's bird being a bit more reddish on the upperparts, 
but that could be a result of processing. This bird did not even draw a second 
look among the leaders at the Shorebird festival since it is a classic juvenile 
Semi that does not resemble a Western juvenile in the least, at least to those 
who see these birds all the time and actually take the time to look at them. 
The head on shot that I posted shows the typical spatula shaped tip to the bill 
of a Semi when seen head on versus the more pointed, finer tipped bill of a 
Western. One of Nick's photos shows this feature clearly. 

http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Sesa+juvenile/ 

I am going to refute some of the points made by Julian, who is a good friend, 
and my comments are not meant to be personal, but just newer information that 
negates some of the old school points of view that have been shown to be 
inconsistent or not pertinent to the ID of Semipalmated Sandpiper. And for Al's 
comments on circular reasoning for this ID, I find them strange considering the 
points of ID that I shared with the group. Rather than drawing on an analysis 
of where the Semis are seen in the East, and the huge numbers that we get 
compared to Westerns in NYC, and also on the competency of the many qualified 
birders who study these birds, such as Tom Burke, Shai Mitra and Andrew Baksh, 
Al decided to make a blind statement that infers that maybe we are 
misidentifying these juvenile Semis that could possibly be Westerns. If the 
bird from the Pacific Coast and my bird shown in the link above were close to 
being a Western Sandpiper juvenile, I could see his reasoning, but we see 
dozens of birds like both of these every day at Jamaica Bay in NYC, and when a 
few Westerns show up in the same view, which happens every now and then, the 
differences are so dramatic that even medium level birders have no trouble 
identifying them. And to deny the multiple points that I pointed out in my 
previous transmission is even stranger, since I provided a number of 
irrefutable points that point to a juvenile Semi, and nothing that suggests a 
juvenile Western except for the profile of the bill from a side view. In cases 
like this, it is better to stick to solid, concrete ID points and not stray 
into psychological points of "circular reasoning" based on possible mass 
misidentification by numbers of very qualified birders, if that is what he 
meant. 


To refute some of Julian's points: 1) The structural features of this bird are 
not ambiguous but typical of a Semi with a compact, forshortened body that 
includes very short tertials and primaries that barely reach the tail tip. 
Larger female Semis have more elongated bodies and wings, like male Westerns, 
but very compact birds like this only point to Semi. And the equal weight 
distribution on the side view shot is perfect for Semi, with Western having 
more chest-heavy, front-weighted body structure. The head shape is also typical 
of Semi, with a half circle, half dome shape compared to Western's squarer rear 
crown shape. These physical differences are not easy to assess for some people, 
and it takes a lot of comparisons to really see these differences. ( See 
comparison photos of both species in the link above to my website to see these 
points illustrated) 

2) the cap is contrasting in all of Nick's shots except for the one side view 
shot that shows a lot of noise from over production or over enlargement. This 
often happens when you over work a photo, which then loses key color and tonal 
qualities. My monitor is calibrated on a regular basis for color and tonality 
because I am a professional photographer, so I can confidently say that all of 
Nick's shots show a redder/buffier crown compared to the grayer nape. Western 
often shows no contrast at all between the crown and nape, while Nick's bird 
shows it clearly on all but the one photo. 

3)the peach colored blush on the sides of the upper breast with fine spotting 
within is a common plumage trait of young juvenile Semis, and not Westerns. I 
am not sure why this made it to Julian's list of pro-Western features, since 
they typically don't show this as juveniles, while Semis commonly do (see my 
photos in the link above) 

4) the expected anchor-shaped markings on the lower scapulars of juvenile Semi 
that was used so strongly in earlier years is not a consistent plumage trait 
for these birds, and numerous juv Semis that I see don't show them at all (see 
my photos in the above link). They often show a dark line to the lower 
scapulars with a smudge at the base rather than the diagnostic anchor shaped 
markings. The variability in this field mark is across the board, with some 
birds showing the distinctive anchors, and others (like my bird above) showing 
none of those markings. 

5)the presence of gray formative feathers on the upperparts is not exclusive to 
Western Sandpiper, with Semi often replacing their non-essential upperpart 
feathers with nonbreeding ones in September. Western juveniles replace their 
entire compliment of upperpart feathers very early compared to Semi, often by 
late September, if they are close to their wintering areas in the Mid-Atlantic 
states. Juvenile Westerns that are migrating to much more southerly regions 
will not replace critical feathers such as wing coverts, tertials and primaries 
until they reach their wintering areas, which accounts for the different molt 
strategy of these birds. 


Consequently, I find none of Julian's pro-Western comments to be exclusive to 
that species given the knowledge base that exists today for Semipalmated 
Sandpiper juveniles. Sorry Julian, but I need to share this information. Due to 
the possible feedback from my comments here, I posted a few comparison shots of 
juvenile Western and Semi on my website with the link above. These shots show 
the points that I made. I tried to download the shots from Nick's post to put 
into a comparison photo with my bird, but Flickr prevented me from doing so. 





----- Original Message -----

From: "Nick Lethaby"  
To: karlson3 AT comcast.net 
Cc: "NBHC Frontiers"  
Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2016 1:59:00 PM 
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 



Kevin, 



Thanks for the detailed analysis. One item I disagree with is the assertion the 
bird has a rusty cap contrasting with the gray nape. The photos (at least on my 
monitor) don’t show this and it was also not visible in the field. I 
specifically checked that point because brighter Semis usually are bright on 
the cap and the mantle/scaps just as you pointed out. So I feel the cap color 
is actually supportive of Western! 




Since others have asked me about feedback, I think opinions are at about 4 for 
Western and 3 for Semipalmated so far, all from well qualified birders. 




Regards, 



Nick 




From: karlson3 AT comcast.net [mailto:karlson3 AT comcast.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 3:18 PM 
To: Lethaby, Nick 
Cc: Frontiers, NBHC 
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 





Nick and all: It is a juvenile Semipalmated Sandpiper, not a Western. Juv Semis 
are some of the most variable shorebirds in the world, and their juvenile 
plumage is all across the board. I have seen a few thousand juv Semis in the 
last few weeks, including a few with rusty upperpart edges restricted to the 
upper back and scapulars like your bird. A feature that eliminates Western and 
points right to Semi is the rusty cap that contrasts with the grayish nape, 
with Western showing a mostly uniform cap and nape that leans towards grayish 
tones, with their cap sometimes showing a slight reddish tone among a few black 
streaks, but never as red as juv Semi.Juv Westerns often show just a reddish 
scapular line, with very little other reddish fringes to any back feathers, 
although some show reddish edges to the mantle and upper back as well. The 
slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another plumage 
trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and the fine 
spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that is 
fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 






The bill is consistent with both species, so that is not helpful to the ID 
(although the head on shot shows the rounded, spatula shape of a Semi's bill, 
with Western usually showing a more pointed bill in a front view), but the even 
weight distribution in front of and behind the legs is consistent with Semi and 
not Western, which shows a chesty, front heavy weight distribution that causes 
them to tilt their bodies towards the rear when at rest. This bird shows a very 
compact, foreshortened look to the body that is typical of male Semis, with 
females typically showing a longer, more slender body and longer wings and 
tertials. The head is also very rounded, like a half circle, in Semi, with 
Western showing a squarish rear head shape that does not round at the rear 
crown, but angles downward towards the nape like a box. 






The very short tertials and primaries are consistent with Semi, with Red-necked 
Stint having a noticeably longer rear body that results in long tertials and 
primaries that extend past the tail. This bird's bill falls in the in between 
zone between male and female Semi, whose bill length ranges from 15 - 25 mm, 
with David Mizrahi banding a Semi in Brazil this past January at 25 mm bill 
length, and who regularly bands very small number of Semis with 25 mm bill 
lengths. He has banded over 40,000 Semis near Cape May over the last 20+ years, 
so this 25 mm bill length in the new upper limit for that species, with much of 
the literature being incorrect in putting their upper bill limit at 23 mm. And 
while we see many Semis with bills like this in the East, I suspect that it is 
a bit more pointed and fine tipped that Semis that you are used to seeing on 
the Pacific Coast. In the shot that shows a female juv Western with this bird, 
you can see the overall brighter appearance to the entire upperpart feathers 
that is typical of juv Semi, with Western juvs usually looking a bit drab in 
comparison, and whose reddish scapular line usually contrasts strongly with the 
rest of the back. 






These long billed female Semis are usually found only on the Atlantic Seaboard 
in migration, and they breed in the Ungava region of Quebec. Semi bill lengths 
cline from West to East, so Alaska breeding birds may only have an upper bill 
length limit of about 21 mm, and eastern Canada breeding females having an 
upper bill length limit of 25mm, with 26 mm a long shot possibility. These long 
billed female Semis have longer bills than some small billed male Westerns ( I 
have photos of them together that shows this), and their bills are more 
drooping and finer tipped than small billed male Westerns as well. While this 
bill seems long and fine tipped for a Semi to West Coast birders, we see many 
Semis with way longer bills than this, and with more drooping tips as well. 
Kevin Karlson 




----- Original Message -----



From: "Nick Lethaby" < nlethaby AT TI.COM > 
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:23:39 AM 
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 





All, 





I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 






Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 






https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830 





To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 






Regards, Nick Lethaby 





Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 





Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: julian hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 20:08:26 +0000
Posting this again due to some formatting issues withthe first go around.


 
Having read Kevin’s post, I think this bird doespresent a couple of queries 
for myself at least and I wonder perhaps if thismay be a bit trickier than it 
first presents? 


 

There have been several "troublesome' birds in theUK in the past few years. The 
main stumbling block was how plumage tones indifferent photos of the same bird 
changed the appearance, making it moreWestern-like or more Semi-p-like 
depending on light conditions, posture, etc,etc. 


 

My main issue with this individual is the color ofthe scaps - they aren't 
that orange-red and are closer to some brightSemi-ps. Also, I find any 
structural features somewhat ambiguous and unhelpfulin swaying me either way. 


 

So, appreciating overlap and the impact of the vagariesof light, a couple of 
features that may merit discussion (since they may beconstrued by some as more 
pro-Western than Semi-p) are: 



 
· The bill is short and pointed


 
· The lateral areas of the crown look greyish without toomuch of a 
contrasting capped effect (at least on my monitor) 



 
· The blush on the breast is overlain with delineatedstreaks at the carpal 
area 



 
· The shape of the dark anchors on the rear, lowerscapulars are more convex 
in shape 



 
· There are some grey, formative feathers appearing inthe upperparts


 
Assuming we can troll the interwebs and all find photosof either species that 
look like the other species, and show all of the abovevariations in either 
species, it will boil down to a collective suite of charactersthat identify 
this bird. I think some of the points above might be worthdiscussing, and 
eliminating, as it relates to the id as a Semi-p. 


 Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519  www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 11:21:24 -0700
All, 
 There seems to be some circular reasoning in the identification of this bird. 
So if some Semipalmated look like this in the east, and that is the reason this 
bird may be a Semi...the question becomes why were those birds identified as 
Semipalmated? If those very same eastern reference birds had been identified as 
Westerns, then they would point to this bird being a Western. 

 Similarly, if birds like this are identified as unlikely to be Western based 
on the short bill in the west, there is circularity in the use of that feature 
in that case as well. 

    
Just thought I would point that out. 
Alvaro
Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification 
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Lethaby, Nick 

Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2016 10:59 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated?

Kevin,

Thanks for the detailed analysis. One item I disagree with is the assertion the 
bird has a rusty cap contrasting with the gray nape. The photos (at least on my 
monitor) don’t show this and it was also not visible in the field. I 
specifically checked that point because brighter Semis usually are bright on 
the cap and the mantle/scaps just as you pointed out. So I feel the cap color 
is actually supportive of Western! 


Since others have asked me about feedback, I think opinions are at about 4 for 
Western and 3 for Semipalmated so far, all from well qualified birders. 


Regards,

Nick

From: karlson3 AT comcast.net [mailto:karlson3 AT comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 3:18 PM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: Frontiers, NBHC
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated?

Nick and all: It is a juvenile Semipalmated Sandpiper, not a Western. Juv Semis 
are some of the most variable shorebirds in the world, and their juvenile 
plumage is all across the board. I have seen a few thousand juv Semis in the 
last few weeks, including a few with rusty upperpart edges restricted to the 
upper back and scapulars like your bird. A feature that eliminates Western and 
points right to Semi is the rusty cap that contrasts with the grayish nape, 
with Western showing a mostly uniform cap and nape that leans towards grayish 
tones, with their cap sometimes showing a slight reddish tone among a few black 
streaks, but never as red as juv Semi.Juv Westerns often show just a reddish 
scapular line, with very little other reddish fringes to any back feathers, 
although some show reddish edges to the mantle and upper back as well. The 
slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another plumage 
trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and the fine 
spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that is 
fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 


The bill is consistent with both species, so that is not helpful to the ID 
(although the head on shot shows the rounded, spatula shape of a Semi's bill, 
with Western usually showing a more pointed bill in a front view), but the even 
weight distribution in front of and behind the legs is consistent with Semi and 
not Western, which shows a chesty, front heavy weight distribution that causes 
them to tilt their bodies towards the rear when at rest. This bird shows a very 
compact, foreshortened look to the body that is typical of male Semis, with 
females typically showing a longer, more slender body and longer wings and 
tertials. The head is also very rounded, like a half circle, in Semi, with 
Western showing a squarish rear head shape that does not round at the rear 
crown, but angles downward towards the nape like a box. 


The very short tertials and primaries are consistent with Semi, with Red-necked 
Stint having a noticeably longer rear body that results in long tertials and 
primaries that extend past the tail. This bird's bill falls in the in between 
zone between male and female Semi, whose bill length ranges from 15 - 25 mm, 
with David Mizrahi banding a Semi in Brazil this past January at 25 mm bill 
length, and who regularly bands very small number of Semis with 25 mm bill 
lengths. He has banded over 40,000 Semis near Cape May over the last 20+ years, 
so this 25 mm bill length in the new upper limit for that species, with much of 
the literature being incorrect in putting their upper bill limit at 23 mm. And 
while we see many Semis with bills like this in the East, I suspect that it is 
a bit more pointed and fine tipped that Semis that you are used to seeing on 
the Pacific Coast. In the shot that shows a female juv Western with this bird, 
you can see the overall brighter appearance to the entire upperpart feathers 
that is typical of juv Semi, with Western juvs usually looking a bit drab in 
comparison, and whose reddish scapular line usually contrasts strongly with the 
rest of the back. 


These long billed female Semis are usually found only on the Atlantic Seaboard 
in migration, and they breed in the Ungava region of Quebec. Semi bill lengths 
cline from West to East, so Alaska breeding birds may only have an upper bill 
length limit of about 21 mm, and eastern Canada breeding females having an 
upper bill length limit of 25mm, with 26 mm a long shot possibility. These long 
billed female Semis have longer bills than some small billed male Westerns ( I 
have photos of them together that shows this), and their bills are more 
drooping and finer tipped than small billed male Westerns as well. While this 
bill seems long and fine tipped for a Semi to West Coast birders, we see many 
Semis with way longer bills than this, and with more drooping tips as well. 
Kevin Karlson 


________________________________
From: "Nick Lethaby" >
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:23:39 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated?

All,

I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 


Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830

To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 


Regards, Nick Lethaby

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: julian hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 18:07:36 +0000
Having read Kevin’s post, I thinkthis bird does present a couple of queries 
for myself at least and I wonder perhapsif this may be a bit trickier than it 
first presents? 



 
There have been several"troublesome' birds in the UK in the past few years. The 
main stumblingblock was how plumage tones in different photos of the same bird 
changed theappearance, making it more Western-like or more Semi-p-like 
depending on lightconditions, posture, etc, etc. 



 
My main issue with this individualis the color of the scaps - they aren't 
that orange-red and arecloser to some bright Semi-ps. Also, I find any 
structural features somewhatambiguous and unhelpful in swaying me either way. 



 
So, appreciating overlap and theimpact of the vagaries of light, a couple of 
features that may merit discussion(since they may be construed by some as more 
pro-Western than Semi-p) are: 


·      The bill is short and pointed 

·      The lateral areas of the crown look greyish without toomuch of a 
contrasting capped effect (at least on my monitor) 


·      The blush on the breast is overlain with delineatedstreaks at the 
carpal area 


·      The shape of the dark anchors on the rear, lowerscapulars are more 
convex in shape 


·      There are some grey, formative feathers appearing inthe upperparts


 
Assuming we can troll the interwebsand all find photos of either species that 
look like the other species, and show all of the above variations in either 
species, it willboil down to a collective suite of characters that identify 
this bird. t I think some ofthe points above might be worth discussing, and 
eliminating, as it relates tothe id as a Semi-p. 


 Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519  www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com 

 On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 6:18 PM, "karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET" 
 wrote: 

 

 Nick and all: It is a juvenile Semipalmated Sandpiper, not a Western. Juv 
Semis are some of the most variable shorebirds in the world, and their juvenile 
plumage is all across the board. I have seen a few thousand juv Semis in the 
last few weeks, including a few with rusty upperpart edges restricted to the 
upper back and scapulars like your bird. A feature that eliminates Western and 
points right to Semi is the rusty cap that contrasts with the grayish nape, 
with Western showing a mostly uniform cap and nape that leans towards grayish 
tones, with their cap sometimes showing a slight reddish tone among a few black 
streaks, but never as red as juv Semi.Juv Westerns often show just a reddish 
scapular line, with very little other reddish fringes to any back feathers, 
although some show reddish edges to the mantle and upper back as well. The 
slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another plumage 
trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and the fine 
spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that is 
fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 


The bill is consistent with both species, so that is not helpful to the ID 
(although the head on shot shows the rounded, spatula shape of a Semi's bill, 
with Western usually showing a more pointed bill in a front view), but the even 
weight distribution in front of and behind the legs is consistent with Semi and 
not Western, which shows a chesty, front heavy weight distribution that causes 
them to tilt their bodies towards the rear when at rest. This bird shows a very 
compact, foreshortened look to the body that is typical of male Semis, with 
females typically showing a longer, more slender body and longer wings and 
tertials. The head is also very rounded, like a half circle, in Semi, with 
Western showing a squarish rear head shape that does not round at the rear 
crown, but angles downward towards the nape like a box. 


The very short tertials and primaries are consistent with Semi, with Red-necked 
Stint having a noticeably longer rear body that results in long tertials and 
primaries that extend past the tail. This bird's bill falls in the in between 
zone between male and female Semi, whose bill length ranges from 15 - 25 mm, 
with David Mizrahi banding a Semi in Brazil this past January at 25 mm bill 
length, and who regularly bands very small number of Semis with 25 mm bill 
lengths. He has banded over 40,000 Semis near Cape May over the last 20+ years, 
so this 25 mm bill length in the new upper limit for that species, with much of 
the literature being incorrect in putting their upper bill limit at 23 mm. And 
while we see many Semis with bills like this in the East, I suspect that it is 
a bit more pointed and fine tipped that Semis that you are used to seeing on 
the Pacific Coast. In the shot that shows a female juv Western with this bird, 
you can see the overall brighter appearance to the entire upperpart feathers 
that is typical of juv Semi, with Western juvs usually looking a bit drab in 
comparison, and whose reddish scapular line usually contrasts strongly with the 
rest of the back. 


These long billed female Semis are usually found only on the Atlantic Seaboard 
in migration, and they breed in the Ungava region of Quebec. Semi bill lengths 
cline from West to East, so Alaska breeding birds may only have an upper bill 
length limit of about 21 mm, and eastern Canada breeding females having an 
upper bill length limit of 25mm, with 26 mm a long shot possibility. These long 
billed female Semis have longer bills than some small billed male Westerns ( I 
have photos of them together that shows this), and their bills are more 
drooping and finer tipped than small billed male Westerns as well. While this 
bill seems long and fine tipped for a Semi to West Coast birders, we see many 
Semis with way longer bills than this, and with more drooping tips as well. 
Kevin Karlson 


----- Original Message -----

From: "Nick Lethaby"  
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:23:39 AM 
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 

All, 

I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 


Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830 

To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 


Regards, Nick Lethaby 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

   

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 17:59:00 +0000
Kevin,

Thanks for the detailed analysis. One item I disagree with is the assertion the 
bird has a rusty cap contrasting with the gray nape. The photos (at least on my 
monitor) don’t show this and it was also not visible in the field. I 
specifically checked that point because brighter Semis usually are bright on 
the cap and the mantle/scaps just as you pointed out. So I feel the cap color 
is actually supportive of Western! 


Since others have asked me about feedback, I think opinions are at about 4 for 
Western and 3 for Semipalmated so far, all from well qualified birders. 


Regards,

Nick

From: karlson3 AT comcast.net [mailto:karlson3 AT comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 3:18 PM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: Frontiers, NBHC
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated?

Nick and all: It is a juvenile Semipalmated Sandpiper, not a Western. Juv Semis 
are some of the most variable shorebirds in the world, and their juvenile 
plumage is all across the board. I have seen a few thousand juv Semis in the 
last few weeks, including a few with rusty upperpart edges restricted to the 
upper back and scapulars like your bird. A feature that eliminates Western and 
points right to Semi is the rusty cap that contrasts with the grayish nape, 
with Western showing a mostly uniform cap and nape that leans towards grayish 
tones, with their cap sometimes showing a slight reddish tone among a few black 
streaks, but never as red as juv Semi.Juv Westerns often show just a reddish 
scapular line, with very little other reddish fringes to any back feathers, 
although some show reddish edges to the mantle and upper back as well. The 
slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another plumage 
trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and the fine 
spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that is 
fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 


The bill is consistent with both species, so that is not helpful to the ID 
(although the head on shot shows the rounded, spatula shape of a Semi's bill, 
with Western usually showing a more pointed bill in a front view), but the even 
weight distribution in front of and behind the legs is consistent with Semi and 
not Western, which shows a chesty, front heavy weight distribution that causes 
them to tilt their bodies towards the rear when at rest. This bird shows a very 
compact, foreshortened look to the body that is typical of male Semis, with 
females typically showing a longer, more slender body and longer wings and 
tertials. The head is also very rounded, like a half circle, in Semi, with 
Western showing a squarish rear head shape that does not round at the rear 
crown, but angles downward towards the nape like a box. 


The very short tertials and primaries are consistent with Semi, with Red-necked 
Stint having a noticeably longer rear body that results in long tertials and 
primaries that extend past the tail. This bird's bill falls in the in between 
zone between male and female Semi, whose bill length ranges from 15 - 25 mm, 
with David Mizrahi banding a Semi in Brazil this past January at 25 mm bill 
length, and who regularly bands very small number of Semis with 25 mm bill 
lengths. He has banded over 40,000 Semis near Cape May over the last 20+ years, 
so this 25 mm bill length in the new upper limit for that species, with much of 
the literature being incorrect in putting their upper bill limit at 23 mm. And 
while we see many Semis with bills like this in the East, I suspect that it is 
a bit more pointed and fine tipped that Semis that you are used to seeing on 
the Pacific Coast. In the shot that shows a female juv Western with this bird, 
you can see the overall brighter appearance to the entire upperpart feathers 
that is typical of juv Semi, with Western juvs usually looking a bit drab in 
comparison, and whose reddish scapular line usually contrasts strongly with the 
rest of the back. 


These long billed female Semis are usually found only on the Atlantic Seaboard 
in migration, and they breed in the Ungava region of Quebec. Semi bill lengths 
cline from West to East, so Alaska breeding birds may only have an upper bill 
length limit of about 21 mm, and eastern Canada breeding females having an 
upper bill length limit of 25mm, with 26 mm a long shot possibility. These long 
billed female Semis have longer bills than some small billed male Westerns ( I 
have photos of them together that shows this), and their bills are more 
drooping and finer tipped than small billed male Westerns as well. While this 
bill seems long and fine tipped for a Semi to West Coast birders, we see many 
Semis with way longer bills than this, and with more drooping tips as well. 
Kevin Karlson 


________________________________
From: "Nick Lethaby" >
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:23:39 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated?

All,

I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 


Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830

To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 


Regards, Nick Lethaby

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: Louis Bevier <lrbevier AT COLBY.EDU>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 21:46:29 -0400
Without getting into the identification of the Lompoc bird, I think some fresh 
juvenile Western Sandpipers can show a rusty cap contrasting with grayish nape 
and a peachy blush on the breast (with fine spotting). This likely changes more 
rapidly than Semipalmated Sandpiper given the differing molt timing of the two 
species, but the feature may linger on some individuals. By the time most 
Western Sandpipers hit the east coast of North America, they often are as Kevin 
describes. Nevertheless, it is worth bearing in mind that that these traits do 
not necessarily eliminate Western Sandpiper. See, for example, this photo from 
s. Vancouver Island: 



http://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/33395521?__hstc=60209138.403f8d1b61ce65550dce91755912a8da.1468162592648.1472690748234.1472692969695.107&__hssc=60209138.9.1472692969695&__hsfp=4144953239 
 


Louis Bevier
Fairfield, Maine

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 6:18 PM, karlson3 AT comcast.net wrote:
> 
> A feature that eliminates Western and points right to Semi is the rusty cap 
that contrasts with the grayish nape, with Western showing a mostly uniform cap 
and nape that leans towards grayish tones, with their cap sometimes showing a 
slight reddish tone among a few black streaks, but never as red as juv Semi… 

> ...The slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another 
plumage trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and 
the fine spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that 
is fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: empidonax puzzle
From: Lisa Hug <lisahug AT SONIC.NET>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 16:59:40 -0700
Hi Birders,

I took this photo on September 14, 2013 on the southern shores of Lake 
Erie in Ohio (Sheldon Marsh near Huron).  I haven't labeled the photo 
other than empidonax and unfortunately, I only got one photo off.  The 
original shows its silhouette and the cropped version is brightened.  I 
have an idea of what I think it is.  But I thought I would just put it 
out there and see what others thought.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lisahug/

Thank you for any ideas,

Lisa Hug
Sebastopol, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Western or Semipalmated?
From: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 22:18:04 +0000
Nick and all: It is a juvenile Semipalmated Sandpiper, not a Western. Juv Semis 
are some of the most variable shorebirds in the world, and their juvenile 
plumage is all across the board. I have seen a few thousand juv Semis in the 
last few weeks, including a few with rusty upperpart edges restricted to the 
upper back and scapulars like your bird. A feature that eliminates Western and 
points right to Semi is the rusty cap that contrasts with the grayish nape, 
with Western showing a mostly uniform cap and nape that leans towards grayish 
tones, with their cap sometimes showing a slight reddish tone among a few black 
streaks, but never as red as juv Semi.Juv Westerns often show just a reddish 
scapular line, with very little other reddish fringes to any back feathers, 
although some show reddish edges to the mantle and upper back as well. The 
slight peachy cast to the upper flanks near the wing bend is another plumage 
trait of young juv Semis which I have never seen in a juv Western, and the fine 
spotting on the sides of the upper breast is another Semi feature that is 
fairly consistent with that species and not juv Western. 


The bill is consistent with both species, so that is not helpful to the ID 
(although the head on shot shows the rounded, spatula shape of a Semi's bill, 
with Western usually showing a more pointed bill in a front view), but the even 
weight distribution in front of and behind the legs is consistent with Semi and 
not Western, which shows a chesty, front heavy weight distribution that causes 
them to tilt their bodies towards the rear when at rest. This bird shows a very 
compact, foreshortened look to the body that is typical of male Semis, with 
females typically showing a longer, more slender body and longer wings and 
tertials. The head is also very rounded, like a half circle, in Semi, with 
Western showing a squarish rear head shape that does not round at the rear 
crown, but angles downward towards the nape like a box. 


The very short tertials and primaries are consistent with Semi, with Red-necked 
Stint having a noticeably longer rear body that results in long tertials and 
primaries that extend past the tail. This bird's bill falls in the in between 
zone between male and female Semi, whose bill length ranges from 15 - 25 mm, 
with David Mizrahi banding a Semi in Brazil this past January at 25 mm bill 
length, and who regularly bands very small number of Semis with 25 mm bill 
lengths. He has banded over 40,000 Semis near Cape May over the last 20+ years, 
so this 25 mm bill length in the new upper limit for that species, with much of 
the literature being incorrect in putting their upper bill limit at 23 mm. And 
while we see many Semis with bills like this in the East, I suspect that it is 
a bit more pointed and fine tipped that Semis that you are used to seeing on 
the Pacific Coast. In the shot that shows a female juv Western with this bird, 
you can see the overall brighter appearance to the entire upperpart feathers 
that is typical of juv Semi, with Western juvs usually looking a bit drab in 
comparison, and whose reddish scapular line usually contrasts strongly with the 
rest of the back. 


These long billed female Semis are usually found only on the Atlantic Seaboard 
in migration, and they breed in the Ungava region of Quebec. Semi bill lengths 
cline from West to East, so Alaska breeding birds may only have an upper bill 
length limit of about 21 mm, and eastern Canada breeding females having an 
upper bill length limit of 25mm, with 26 mm a long shot possibility. These long 
billed female Semis have longer bills than some small billed male Westerns ( I 
have photos of them together that shows this), and their bills are more 
drooping and finer tipped than small billed male Westerns as well. While this 
bill seems long and fine tipped for a Semi to West Coast birders, we see many 
Semis with way longer bills than this, and with more drooping tips as well. 
Kevin Karlson 


----- Original Message -----

From: "Nick Lethaby"  
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:23:39 AM 
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Western or Semipalmated? 

All, 

I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 


Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830 

To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 


Regards, Nick Lethaby 

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Western or Semipalmated?
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 15:23:39 +0000
All,

I was wondering if I could get a definitive opinion of the bird below. When I 
found the bird, the combination of a relatively short bill and obviously 
rufous-toned scapulars, made me seriously consider a juv Red-necked. However 
expert review of some earlier photos eliminated that species on multiple 
structural features. The expert commentary focused on why it wasn't a 
Red-necked obviously. However one mentioned that it was a short-billed Western 
while two others stated that the bird's plumage was within the variation shown 
by Semipalmated. 


Some photos taken by Glenn Kincaid are at the link below. They were taken on 
Aug 27 on the coast of S. California. There were about 150 Westerns in the same 
area. The bird moved around a lot but was fairly easy to relocate, implying 
that it was reasonably distinctive. Semipalmated is a rare but regular migrant 
to the area and we get typically 3-8 juveniles in fall in the county. 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtk_photos/albums/72157671838970830

To me the plumage seems pretty close to a typical Western, so I lean to a 
short-billed Western. I am interested in how short Western bills can get. 


Regards, Nick Lethaby

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: the tanager ( this link should work.)
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 20:05:41 -0700
I apologize for the earlier attempts to send the photos to Frontiers. 
Apparently the site blocked them for some reason. 



The observers identified the bird as a female Scarlet Tanager. Below is the 
link to their ebird post. 


I think they are correct based on the over-all greenish color, mostly dark 
bill, and very thin wing bars. Most in Oregon who have commented about the bird 
suggest that it is an unusually green Western Tanager, or that the photos are 
not good enough to make an identification. The Scarlet Tanager is a rarity to 
Oregon. 


This might be appropriate to Frontiers because of the question of whether the 
wing bars are within the range of what a Scarlet Tanager can have, and whether 
a first summer Scarlet Tanager might be more likely to show some wing bars. 


Comments?  Photos to support conclusions?


Jeff Gilligan
Oregon



Begin forwarded message:
> 
> 
> Oregon2020--Indian Creek Harney, Harney, Oregon, US
> May 31, 2016 1:30 PM - 1:50 PM
> Protocol: Stationary
> 1 species
> 
> Scarlet Tanager 1 Not sure if I have the location right but it was north of 
Andrews at one of the creeks bordered by willows. This bird was very green from 
head to rump and including breast. Gray wings and tail including underside. 
Faint wing bars and faint eye ring present. Bill was pale yellow peachy color 
and seemed slightly de-curved. Bird was vocalizing but sounded more warbler 
like than any tanager. In my recollection I have not seen another tanager that 
looked like this the best I could come up with using references was a female 
scarlet tanager. 

> 
> View this checklist online at http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30098651
> 
> This report was generated automatically by eBird v3 (http://ebird.org)
> 


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: 608-16-07 Scarlet Tanager - Google Drive (I was told link didn't work) Here is one photo.
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 16:18:57 -0700
Drive
.
Folder Path
My Drive
Voting: First Round BATCH 2
608-16-07 Scarlet Tanager
NEW 
Folders and views
My DriveMy Drive
Shared with meShared with me
Google PhotosGoogle Photos
RecentRecent
StarredStarred
TrashTrash
Get Drive for Mac
634 MB of 15 GB used
Upgrade storage
NAME 
Files
.


608-16-07SCTA.docx


608-16-07f.jpg


608-16-07e.jpg


608-16-07d.jpg


608-16-07c.jpg


608-16-07b.jpg


608-16-07a.jpg


608-16-07 photos.rtf


608-16-07b.jpg
Open with
6 of 8 items



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Scarlet Tanager ? Oregon
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 16:03:57 -0700
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0ByP4nQWTdoXicHZaTEd1V1hwMEk

All

Hopefully the attachment can be opened by those interested. The observers 
identified the bird as a female Scarlet Tanager. 


I think they are correct based on the over-all greenish color, mostly dark 
bill, and very thin wing bars. Most in Oregon who have commented about the bird 
suggest that it is an unusually green Western Tanager, or that the photos are 
not good enough to make an identification. The Scarlet Tanager is a rarity to 
Oregon. 


This might be appropriate to Frontiers because of the question of whether the 
wing bars are within the range of what a Scarlet Tanager can have, and whether 
a first summer Scarlet Tanager might be more likely to show some wing bars. 


Comments?  Photos to support conclusions?


Jeff Gilligan
Oregon
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: I.d. of owl carcass?
From: Peter Wilkinson <pjw42 AT WAITROSE.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 21:39:59 +0100
Hi All,

It's a Long-eared Owl. Size, wing formula and look at those lovely
flashes on the outer primaries. The Slater Museum collection shows the
wing differences nicely.

Hoping I haven't missed something!

Peter
Herts, England

On Wed, 2016-07-20 at 19:52 -0700, Don Roberson wrote:
> Do any of you have expertise in identifying an owl carcass? If so, please 
look at the eBird checklist linking to this local post 

> 
> > I collected and cleaned the carcass this morning. The 'long ears' were 
still intact once cleaned. Photos of head, feet, wing, tail added to 
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30744454. 

> > A Long-eard Owl indeed.=20
> > We can only imagine what route it took. Lost and died at sea? Washed down 
the Pajaro River? 

> > 
> 
> > Don Glasco. Seaside, CA
> > =20
> > On Jul 18, 2016, at 05:50 PM, Donald Glasco  =
> wrote:
> > 
> >> We can narrow down to an owl. Lotsa feathers on head covering an all dark 
bill. I looked at many pics of feet; feet/claws match owl better than a hawk. 

> >> Clay Kempf suggests a Great-horned.
> >> There was no suggestion of long ear feathers, ala LEOW or GHOW, but those 
could have been lost. 

> >> 
> >> I measured a wingspan of 36-37".
> >> Per Sibley, wingspans of pertinent owls are
> >> LEOW   36"
> >> SEOW   38"
> >> BAOW  42" (Note: beak color is white or pink or light yellow - not dark)
> >> GHOW  44"
> >> 
> >> No telling where it came from. If it was washed up from the bay, it would 
have died at sea north of Pajaro. Or it could have floated down the Pajaro 
River. It was within 10-15m of the south bank of the river, but 100-125 m from 
shoreline but within high tide wrack line. 

> 
> This carcass collected near the high tide wrack at Pajaro River (which forms 
of the boundary of between Santa Cruz and Monterey Co.). The ebird list is 

> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30744454
> with photos. Collector identifies it as Long-eared -- and maybe it is (but 
that is rare here) -- while I cannot find a clear character to eliminate Great 
Horned Owl (common here). So I could use some actual expertise on the topic. 

> 
> Thanks, Don Roberson
> Monterey County records compiler
> http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: I.d. of owl carcass?
From: Don Roberson <creagrus AT MONTEREYBAY.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 19:52:18 -0700
Do any of you have expertise in identifying an owl carcass? If so, please look 
at the eBird checklist linking to this local post 


> I collected and cleaned the carcass this morning. The 'long ears' were still 
intact once cleaned. Photos of head, feet, wing, tail added to 
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30744454. 

> A Long-eard Owl indeed.=20
> We can only imagine what route it took. Lost and died at sea? Washed down the 
Pajaro River? 

> 

> Don Glasco. Seaside, CA
> =20
> On Jul 18, 2016, at 05:50 PM, Donald Glasco  =
wrote:
> 
>> We can narrow down to an owl. Lotsa feathers on head covering an all dark 
bill. I looked at many pics of feet; feet/claws match owl better than a hawk. 

>> Clay Kempf suggests a Great-horned.
>> There was no suggestion of long ear feathers, ala LEOW or GHOW, but those 
could have been lost. 

>> 
>> I measured a wingspan of 36-37".
>> Per Sibley, wingspans of pertinent owls are
>> LEOW   36"
>> SEOW   38"
>> BAOW  42" (Note: beak color is white or pink or light yellow - not dark)
>> GHOW  44"
>> 
>> No telling where it came from. If it was washed up from the bay, it would 
have died at sea north of Pajaro. Or it could have floated down the Pajaro 
River. It was within 10-15m of the south bank of the river, but 100-125 m from 
shoreline but within high tide wrack line. 


This carcass collected near the high tide wrack at Pajaro River (which forms of 
the boundary of between Santa Cruz and Monterey Co.). The ebird list is 

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30744454
with photos. Collector identifies it as Long-eared -- and maybe it is (but that 
is rare here) -- while I cannot find a clear character to eliminate Great 
Horned Owl (common here). So I could use some actual expertise on the topic. 


Thanks, Don Roberson
Monterey County records compiler
http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Empid question
From: Jeff Gilligan <jeffgilligan10 AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 11:20:50 -0700
Yes - it looks like a Pacific slope to me as well. I think of the eye-ring as 
being American football-shaped. The underparts color is fine for Pacific Slope. 
The bill is long and the lower mandible is almost all yellow. 


Jeff Gilligan

Oregon/Washington/Arizona


On Jul 20, 2016, at 7:37 AM, Steve Hampton  wrote:

> It still seems like a Pac-slope to me, in color tone and teardrop eye
> ring.  Perhaps the dark bill tip is just aberrant.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 7:21 AM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:
> 
>> All,
>> 
>> Here is the correct version of the empid id request from Hugh Ranson.
>> Apologies for the accidental post last night when I was replying to Hugh.
>> If you want to reply direct to Hugh, his e-mail is: zonetail AT sbceo.org
>> 
>> 
>> All,
>> 
>> Yesterday, 7/19/16, I came across a silent empidonax flycatcher in Rocky
>> Nook Park, coastal Santa Barbara County, California. It was in a riparian
>> area of oaks and sycamores. The expected species here is Pacific-slope
>> Flycatcher (they breed at this location), and any other empid in mid-July
>> would be quite unexpected. As soon as I saw the bird's dusky-tipped lower
>> mandible, I started taking pictures. Unfortunately the bird only stuck
>> around for 15 seconds or so before disappearing. I have included the best 4
>> pictures on my Flickr site:
>> 
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/zonetail/<
>> 
http://www3.sbceo.org/web/services/go.php?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fzonetail%2F 

>>> 
>> 
>> I have received several ideas as to the bird's identity but thought it best
>> to put the pictures out there for fresh discussion. I have not played with
>> the photos beyond cropping.
>> 
>> Hugh Ranson
>> Santa Barbara
>> 
>> 
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Empid question
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 07:37:11 -0700
It still seems like a Pac-slope to me, in color tone and teardrop eye
ring.  Perhaps the dark bill tip is just aberrant.



On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 7:21 AM, Lethaby, Nick  wrote:

> All,
>
> Here is the correct version of the empid id request from Hugh Ranson.
> Apologies for the accidental post last night when I was replying to Hugh.
> If you want to reply direct to Hugh, his e-mail is: zonetail AT sbceo.org
>
>
> All,
>
> Yesterday, 7/19/16, I came across a silent empidonax flycatcher in Rocky
> Nook Park, coastal Santa Barbara County, California. It was in a riparian
> area of oaks and sycamores. The expected species here is Pacific-slope
> Flycatcher (they breed at this location), and any other empid in mid-July
> would be quite unexpected. As soon as I saw the bird's dusky-tipped lower
> mandible, I started taking pictures. Unfortunately the bird only stuck
> around for 15 seconds or so before disappearing. I have included the best 4
> pictures on my Flickr site:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/zonetail/<
> 
http://www3.sbceo.org/web/services/go.php?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fzonetail%2F 

> >
>
> I have received several ideas as to the bird's identity but thought it best
> to put the pictures out there for fresh discussion. I have not played with
> the photos beyond cropping.
>
> Hugh Ranson
> Santa Barbara
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Empid question
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:21:45 +0000
All,

Here is the correct version of the empid id request from Hugh Ranson. Apologies 
for the accidental post last night when I was replying to Hugh. If you want to 
reply direct to Hugh, his e-mail is: zonetail AT sbceo.org 



All,

Yesterday, 7/19/16, I came across a silent empidonax flycatcher in Rocky
Nook Park, coastal Santa Barbara County, California. It was in a riparian
area of oaks and sycamores. The expected species here is Pacific-slope
Flycatcher (they breed at this location), and any other empid in mid-July
would be quite unexpected. As soon as I saw the bird's dusky-tipped lower
mandible, I started taking pictures. Unfortunately the bird only stuck
around for 15 seconds or so before disappearing. I have included the best 4
pictures on my Flickr site:


https://www.flickr.com/photos/zonetail/ 


I have received several ideas as to the bird's identity but thought it best
to put the pictures out there for fresh discussion. I have not played with
the photos beyond cropping.

Hugh Ranson
Santa Barbara


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: empid
From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 23:47:16 +0000
Sucks for you and your son. What a mess.

I was thinking on doing the hack up the Manzana this weekend but the weekend 
after would work too. 


Would Thursday evening work? Aidan is going out to a movie that night so I am 
completely free (wife and daughter are in the UK). 


Frontiers address is: 
BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU 


On the bright side, it seems that there has been a terrorist attack, a cop 
ambush, or the cops shooting an unarmed person today. 


From: Hugh Ranson [mailto:hranson AT goleta.k12.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 4:22 PM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Subject: Re: empid

Late in the day is fine with me.
A Manzana trip sounds like fun. My son has to have ear surgery (again!) soon, 
so my time is somewhat limited. Let me know when you might go. 

I have posted to ID Frontiers before but can't remember how to do it. Any tips? 

Hugh

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

I can do this on weekend or a week day evening. I would prefer not do it at a 
time on the weekend that knocks out birding/butterfly activity, but am flexible 
on what your schedule allows. 


I am kicking around doing a decent hike up the Manzana one day. Let me know if 
you are interested. 


From: Hugh Ranson 
[mailto:hranson AT goleta.k12.ca.us] 

Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 4:08 PM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Subject: Re: empid

One Vivid Dancer.
Perhaps this weekend on the photos? When is good for you?
Hugh

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

What odes did you see?

Also when do you want to meet to do the photo caption review?

From: Hugh Ranson 
[mailto:hranson AT goleta.k12.ca.us] 

Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 11:17 AM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: David Compton; Peter Gaede; Wes Fritz
Subject: Re: empid

Just been out looking but with no success. It's already hot and the birds are 
very quiet. I did see one typical Pac-slope. By the way, there's a surprising 
amount of water in the creek bed. I left Bill Murdoch there looking. 

Hugh

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

I don’t agree that Least has a broad bill. Pac-slope has a much broader bill 
than Least. I am willing to buy that the angle of the photo is perhaps making 
the bill look narrower than it really is. Plumage-wise, the bird looks OK for a 
Pac-slope to me and odd for the others, but that could be a lighting effect. 


From: David Compton 
[mailto:davcompton AT verizon.net] 

Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:47 AM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: Hugh Ranson; Peter Gaede; Wes Fritz
Subject: Re: empid

Bill looks long and narrow for Least to me, as Least bill is broad and not 
terribly long. Definitely not a Hammond's bill, and Hammond's/Dusky would be 
really strange for the date, as we all know. I agree with Peter. Certainly the 
eye ring looks Pac-slopish (to me) in the photos. Plumage looks mostly right, 
although the underparts are weird. I don't think the bill is so off for 
Pac-slope. I would say it's not a juv, as Hugh says. 


I could be wrong, but I feel like there's enough to think it's the only 
expected empid at this location and date. If other photos or vocalizations 
prove otherwise, that will be great. 


Dave

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 19, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

I think the bill shape looks better for Least than Hammond’s or Dusky in that 
it is somewhat concave. 


From: Hugh Ranson [mailto:hranson AT goleta.k12.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:05 AM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: Peter Gaede; Dave Compton; Wes Fritz
Subject: Re: empid

The tail is pretty worn which would indicate adult, I think.

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 8:50 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

The dingy appearance is Pac-slopish. I noticed on the photos seems to hint at 
spotting on the scapulars and was wondering if it might be a juv and that juvs 
could show a dusky bill tip. 


From: Hugh Ranson 
[mailto:hranson AT goleta.k12.ca.us] 

Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:48 AM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: Peter Gaede; Dave Compton; Wes Fritz
Subject: Re: empid

I will go look again this morning after I drop Nico off. Peter thinks it's a 
good fit for Pac Slope, but the dusky-tipped bill would surely be an anomaly 
for that species. The bill seems too long for Hammond's. More to come... 

Hugh

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Lethaby, Nick 
> wrote: 

I took another look at this and cannot decide what it is. The lighting on the 
photo is too poor to really understand the colors and the angle on the primary 
projection may be foreshortening it. I would like to see a more obvious white 
throat to jump firmly in the Least camp. I am pretty certain the bill is too 
narrow for a Pac-slope, in addition to the dark tip. We are surely in the 
Least/Hammond’s/Dusky zone. 


From: Hugh Ranson 
[mailto:hranson AT goleta.k12.ca.us] 

Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 8:31 PM
To: Peter Gaede; Lethaby, Nick; Dave Compton; Wes Fritz
Subject: empid

Fellas,
I posted to sbcobirding but for some reason it hasn't appeared. Check out these 
photos of a briefly-seen and silent empid from Rocky Nook late this afternoon. 


https://www.flickr.com/photos/zonetail/
Hugh






Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 19:46:19 -0700
Thanks all.

I've changed it to Pacific and added a few more pics to my eBird report
(including an undertail shot).  See
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30639505.

This marks the 4th mid-summer golden-plover in Yolo County in as many
years.  The other three were 2 Americans and 1 Pacific. They were all in
full (or nearly so) breeding plumage.  Pics of them can be seen here:

American Golden-Plover
July 21, 2013
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S14701974

June 24, 2014
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S18903528

Pacific Golden-Plover
July 27, 2015
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S24406400


good birding,

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Martin Reid  wrote:

> Dear Steve,
> I am completely in line with Peter A. on this bird.
> Martin.
>
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
> On Jul 11, 2016, at Jul 11, 10:15 PM, Steve Hampton <
> stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM > wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Attached are several pics of a golden-plover found yesterday near
> Sacramento:  http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30639505
>
> I've called it an American for these reasons, but seek further input:
> 1) It called several times, a soft "chirrip". I'm not familiar with either
> call, but based on the various recordings at xeno-canto (and they are
> variable), it seemed much closer in tone to American. The call was
> decidedly soft, with a little warble in it, and not strident.
> 2) As can be seen, the bird is in active molt from summer to winter. This
> makes evaluating the plumage difficult. Hayman et al. Shorebird guide shows
> intermediate Am with white undertail and white down the flanks just like
> this bird, thus mimicking Pacific attributes. The large bulge of white at
> the breast seemed very good for American.
> 3) I thought the rather blocky head shape and short tibia seemed better for
> American.
>
> thanks,
>
>
> --
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
>
>


-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Re: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA
From: Martin Reid <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:39:28 -0500
Dear Steve,
I am completely in line with Peter A. on this bird.
Martin.

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com



> On Jul 11, 2016, at Jul 11, 10:15 PM, Steve Hampton  
wrote: 

> 
> All,
> 
> Attached are several pics of a golden-plover found yesterday near
> Sacramento:  http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30639505
> 
> I've called it an American for these reasons, but seek further input:
> 1) It called several times, a soft "chirrip". I'm not familiar with either
> call, but based on the various recordings at xeno-canto (and they are
> variable), it seemed much closer in tone to American. The call was
> decidedly soft, with a little warble in it, and not strident.
> 2) As can be seen, the bird is in active molt from summer to winter. This
> makes evaluating the plumage difficult. Hayman et al. Shorebird guide shows
> intermediate Am with white undertail and white down the flanks just like
> this bird, thus mimicking Pacific attributes. The large bulge of white at
> the breast seemed very good for American.
> 3) I thought the rather blocky head shape and short tibia seemed better for
> American.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
> 
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
Subject: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA
From: Steve Hampton <stevechampton AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:15:39 -0700
All,

Attached are several pics of a golden-plover found yesterday near
Sacramento:  http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S30639505

I've called it an American for these reasons, but seek further input:
1) It called several times, a soft "chirrip". I'm not familiar with either
call, but based on the various recordings at xeno-canto (and they are
variable), it seemed much closer in tone to American. The call was
decidedly soft, with a little warble in it, and not strident.
2) As can be seen, the bird is in active molt from summer to winter. This
makes evaluating the plumage difficult. Hayman et al. Shorebird guide shows
intermediate Am with white undertail and white down the flanks just like
this bird, thus mimicking Pacific attributes. The large bulge of white at
the breast seemed very good for American.
3) I thought the rather blocky head shape and short tibia seemed better for
American.

thanks,


-- 
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html