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Updated on Wednesday, October 22 at 04:20 AM EST
The most recently received Mail is at the top.


Banded Wattle-eye,©BirdQuest

22 Oct You Yangs. Weebill City. [Russell Woodford ]
22 Oct Freckled Duck, Gate Art and Poetry With a Birding Pal [Chris Shaw ]
21 Oct Save Our Broadwater on the Gold Coast ["Judy Leitch" ]
21 Oct Re: Silver Gulls nesting at Orange, NSW ["Roger Giller" ]
21 Oct Re: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders? ["Paul Doyle" ]
21 Oct Re: Aussie Backyard Bird Count data noisy [Laurie Knight ]
21 Oct Re: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders? [Dominic Funnell ]
21 Oct Re: RFI Cairns - best time to visit? [martin cachard ]
21 Oct Re: Silver Gulls nesting at Orange, NSW [Carl Clifford ]
21 Oct Great customer service - binoculars [Hannah ]
21 Oct Re: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders? [ ]
21 Oct Re: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders? [Martin Butterfield ]
21 Oct Re: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders? [Fiona Anderson ]
21 Oct Re: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders? [Bill Stent ]
21 Oct RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders? [Dominic Chaplin ]
20 Oct Re: Silver Gulls nesting at Orange, NSW ["Roger Giller" ]
20 Oct RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders? [inger vandyke ]
20 Oct Re: Aussie Backyard Bird Count data noisy [Tony Ashton ]
20 Oct RFI Cairns - best time to visit? []
20 Oct Re: Aussie Backyard Bird Count data noisy ["Alec & Catherine Gillespie" ]
20 Oct Last thoughts on Banding ["Geoffrey Allan Jones" ]
20 Oct Re: A Band of Birders & Others [Ian May ]
20 Oct Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app! [Andrew Silcocks ]
20 Oct Bird Banding [Carl Clifford ]
20 Oct Re: Bird banding [Damien Farine ]
20 Oct Re: Aussie Backyard Bird Count data noisy [Elliot Leach ]
20 Oct Birdline Australian Capital Territory Weekly Update []
20 Oct Birdline Central & Southern Queensland Weekly Update []
20 Oct Birdline Australia Weekly Update []
20 Oct Bird banding [Graeme Chapman ]
20 Oct Re: A Band of Birders & Others ["Greg and Val Clancy" ]
20 Oct Aussie Backyard Bird Count data noisy [Andrew Taylor ]
20 Oct Regent honeyeaters [Garry Clark ]
20 Oct Re: A Band of Birders & Others [Damien Farine ]
20 Oct Birdpedia - Australia - Weekly Digest ["Birdpedia - Australia Info" ]
19 Oct Strange Bush Stonecurlew Behaviour ["Alans Wildlife Tours" ]
19 Oct Re: bird call recognition app. [Peter Shute ]
19 Oct Silver Gulls nesting at Orange, NSW [Carl Clifford ]
19 Oct A Band of Birders & Others ["Geoffrey Allan Jones" ]
19 Oct Eastern Whipbird [Chris Shaw ]
19 Oct Cassowaries ["Phil & Sue Gregory" ]
19 Oct Panama Trip 2015 ["Greg Roberts" ]
18 Oct Eaglehawk Neck Pelagics ­ Saturday, 30/08, and Sunday, 31/08/2014 [Nikolas Haass ]
18 Oct White-throated Needletail and Albert''s Lyrebird ["Richard Johnstone" ]
18 Oct Re: bird call recognition app. [Charles ]
18 Oct Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app! [Michael Tarburton ]
18 Oct Re Banding ["Philip Veerman" ]
18 Oct On the subject of banding and satellite tracking [Laurie Knight ]
18 Oct Re: Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take 2 ["Stephen Ambrose" ]
18 Oct Re: Bronzewing Diary 2014 ["Ross Macfarlane" ]
18 Oct AUSSIE BACKYARD BIRD COUNT [Laurie Knight ]
18 Oct Re: Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take 2 [Ian May ]
18 Oct Re: Bronzewing Diary 2014 ["Philip Veerman" ]
17 Oct Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app! [Graeme Stevens ]
17 Oct Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app! [Trevor Hampel ]
17 Oct Re: Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take 2 [Damien Farine ]
17 Oct Bronzewing Diary 2014 ["Ross Macfarlane" ]
17 Oct Black Butcherbird [Graeme Chapman ]
17 Oct Help Albert's Lyrebird [Barbara Stewart ]
17 Oct Re: Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take 2 [Peter Shute ]
17 Oct Cumberland Bird Observers Club Bus Trip ["keith brandwood" ]
17 Oct Re: Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take 2 [Ian May ]
16 Oct Whoops forgot my parrot home ranges for Adelaide ["Donald G. Kimball" ]
17 Oct Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app! [Martin Butterfield ]
17 Oct bird call recognition app. ["Michael Hunter" ]
17 Oct Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app! [Peter Shute ]
17 Oct Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app! [Jenny Spry ]
17 Oct Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app! [Peter Shute ]
17 Oct Re: Yet another listing app! [Dave Torr ]
17 Oct Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app! [Graeme Stevens ]
17 Oct Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app! [Steve Clark ]
17 Oct Re: Yet another listing app! [Peter Shute ]
17 Oct Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app! [Graeme Stevens ]
17 Oct Re: Yet another listing app! [Grahame Rogers ]
17 Oct Re: Yet another listing app! [Dave Torr ]
17 Oct Re: Yet another listing app! [Martin Butterfield ]

Subject: You Yangs. Weebill City.
From: Russell Woodford <rdwoodford AT gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 19:52:36 +1100
Went against my own advice (this is usually a good idea) and went bush
birding instead of to WTP -  spent a couple of delightful hours at the
Western Plantation (You Yangs). Hardly any wind, and quite hot. Summer
birds are back! Sacred Kingfisher (at least two, one seen), a few
Bee-Eaters, Shining & Horsfields Bronze-Cuckoos, Rufous and Golden
Whistlers. Pleased to hear Brown Treecreeper after struggling to find them
here all year, and always nice to see Ruth Woodrow's Owlet-Nightjar peering
out from its hole. How long do these birds live? Ruth found it some years
ago - maybe a descendant has inherited the family home?

Parks Vic should rename this Weebill Plantation. They were everywhere, and
very vocal. Watch where you step, by the way. There was a 1.5m brown snake
(colour, not necessarily species) on the track beside the Woollamanatta
fenceline (which birders do not cross, of course).


No Sitellas, Diamond Firetails, or Black-eared Cuckoo here today, though
these are all possible - but I'm not complaining. I saw some fabulous birds
in a short visit. I hope everyone who flocked to the Ttreatment Plant had
as good a day.

Russell Woodford
Geelong


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Subject: Freckled Duck, Gate Art and Poetry With a Birding Pal
From: Chris Shaw <seashore AT internode.on.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 13:04:40 +1030
I took a birding pal for a look around the Adelaide Hills and south. We saw 
lots of birds and some great gate art… 


Chris Shaw
seashore AT internode.on.net
Mobile 0409 675912

My blog - "Top Birds and Everyfing" can be found on the following link 

http://topbirdsandeveryfing.typepad.com/top-birds-everyfing/

“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.” 
Hanlon 





















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Subject: Save Our Broadwater on the Gold Coast
From: "Judy Leitch" <judyleitch AT optusnet.com.au>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 20:52:52 +1000
Hi all,

 

Our Broadwater supports dugongs, dolphins (over 60 seen recently at the
north end of South Stradbroke), at least 50-60 Eastern Curlews each summer
as well as other migratory and resident shorebirds, 404 sp of fish have been
sighted on the seaway, Humpback Whales have visited - the list goes on...

 

Our Broadwater is seriously threatened by ASF and their ship-terminal and
casino development on Wavebreak Island and Carter Bank.

 

ASF lead a foreign consortia which include two large Chinese state-owned
companies. The state has offered them public land to build an integrated
resort and ship terminal in the Broadwater - claiming that Mayor Tate had a
mandate last election. Given most of the present elements of the project
were never mentioned by Mayor Tate, much less in their present location,
that argument has died a pretty obvious death.


ASF have a big plan (the design for which remains not officially disclosed)
to construct a casino, high rise hotels/apartments etc including a 50 storey
high rise on Wave Break island .Their pics to date suggest they will expand
the landmass through dredging the Broadwater to almost double the island's
size..

 

According to one participant in the 'community consultation', ASF reveals no
new pics or ideas BUT reveals construction will run UNTIL 2025... so that's
A WHOLE DECADE of construction noise, mess, traffic, dredging & Broadwater
devastation for our city... aside from the environmental nightmare for all
the creatures that live in & over the water, the tourism devastation & loss
of local use of the area - all immeasurable... & for what... ASF's coffers &
their casino-fuelled development? 

 

I just signed the petition "Save Our Broadwater - Stop ASF before it is too
late!" and wanted to ask if you could add your name too.

 

This campaign means a lot to me and the more support we can get behind it,
the better chance we have of succeeding. You can read more and sign the
petition here:

 

https://www.communityrun.org/petitions/save-our-broadwater

 

Thank you!

 

 

Judy

 

 

image

 

Save Our Broadwater  

 



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Subject: Re: Silver Gulls nesting at Orange, NSW
From: "Roger Giller" <rgiller AT optusnet.com.au>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 17:26:18 +1100
Not sure Carl. We were just there for a couple of days passing through.

Roger

-----Original Message----- 
From: Carl Clifford
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:15 AM
To: Roger Giller
Cc: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Silver Gulls nesting at Orange, NSW

Seems that Silver Gulls can pick good nesting spots. Have the Lake Canobolas 
birds succeeded in hatching?

Carl Clifford


> On 20 Oct 2014, at 22:40, Roger Giller  wrote:
>
> On Sept 18 I observed and photographed a Silver Gull sitting on a nest on 
> a pontoon at Lake Canobolas.
>
> Roger.
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Carl Clifford
> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 6:14 PM
> To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Silver Gulls nesting at Orange, NSW
>
> Spent the weekend at Orange, NSW and was kindly shown two sites with 
> nesting Silver Gulls. The first site, Wentworth Golf Club, had a pair 
> nesting on a pontoon holding up the intake hose for the irrigation system 
> in the dam just by the clubhouse. The pair had a single chick just 
> starting to moult from its down. The second site was in Suma Park Dam, 
> where there were 4 pairs visibly nesting on a small island in the dam 
> (note, access to Suma Park is not open to the public). There was a 
> constant stream of SGs flying to and from Suma Park and the local tip, so 
> there may be more nesting going on than could be seen from my vantage 
> point.
>
> Carl Clifford
>
>
> 




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Subject: Re: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders?
From: "Paul Doyle" <paulodoyle AT optusnet.com.au>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 16:57:05 +1100
I was in Daintree in July and had a great walking tour with Chris Dahlberg.
He has, as Martin mentioned, sold the boat business to Murray Hunt.
While I did not have the opportunity to take a boat tour, I did meet 'Sauce'
Worcester and he was a lovely bloke and very knowledgeable and Chris
recommends his river tours which leave from the jetty in Daintree village
every morning and evening. Web is www.daintreeriverwildwatch.com.au
(I have no financial connection with any of the above).

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Birding-Aus [mailto:birding-aus-bounces AT birding-aus.org] On Behalf Of
Martin Butterfield
Sent: Tuesday, 21 October 2014 9:40 AM
To: Bill Stent
Cc: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org; Dominic Chaplin
Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders?

I was going to suggest Chris Dahlberg, but on Googling find that Murray Hunt
has taken over that excellent operation.

Martin

Martin Butterfield
http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/

On 21 October 2014 09:12, Bill Stent  wrote:

> I'd have to agree there, although I've never done a tour with anyone 
> else, Murray's tour was excellent, informative and interesting. I 
> stuck with him for the whole day (together with one other birder) and 
> was not disappointed!
>
> Bill
>
> On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:05 AM, Dominic Chaplin 
>  wrote:
> > The best person to try for trips on the Daintree River would 
> > definitely
> be BirdLife Northern Queensland Secretary, Murray Hunt
> > http://daintreerivertours.com.au/
> > Cheers,
> > Dominic
> > 
> >
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Subject: Re: Aussie Backyard Bird Count data noisy
From: Laurie Knight <l.knight AT optusnet.com.au>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 16:56:56 +1000
Looking at the list of suggested birds, I can see there are no location smarts 
when you enter observations. For example, Baudin’s Cockatoo should only come up 
in SW WA, yet it appeared when I was entering a Brisbane list. 


Another limitation is that you can’t provide details of breeding activity - I 
had a couple of breeding observations today. 


Regards, Laurie.

On 20 Oct 2014, at 8:17 am, Andrew Taylor  wrote:

> Browsing Aussie Backyard Bird Count list for inner Sydney at
> http://aussiebirdcount.org.au/sightings/ you find a significant fraction
> of lists contain obvious mis-identifications.
> 
> Most like Barn Swallow, Forty-spotted Pardalote, Black Currawong,
> Black-tailed Native-hen & Carnaby's Black-Cockatoo are easy to
> understand. And perhaps the reporter of Abbott's Booby from
> Newtown was making a political point.  Others IDs are just mysterious
> like Black Grasswren.
> 
> In one way its good news that a wider demographic has been attracted,
> although there is clearly challenges ahead to educate observers &
> improve the observations and make the data useful.
> 
> The mis-ID could be useful, to estimate observer accuracy, someone
> reporting (say) Black Currawong shouldn't be relied to have correctly
> ID'ed Little Wattlebird & White-faced Honyeater they've also reported.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> 
>
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Subject: Re: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders?
From: Dominic Funnell <dominic.funnell AT googlemail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 15:56:27 +1000
Hi
I would always go with Sauce aka Ian Worcester of Daintree River Wild Watch
- been out with him on a few occasions and his trips are superb.

http://www.daintreeriverwildwatch.com.au/

Dom

On 21 October 2014 08:05, Dominic Chaplin 
wrote:

> The best person to try for trips on the Daintree River would definitely be
> BirdLife Northern Queensland Secretary, Murray Hunt
> http://daintreerivertours.com.au/
> Cheers,
> Dominic
> 
>
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Subject: Re: RFI Cairns - best time to visit?
From: martin cachard <mcachard AT hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 15:26:11 +1100
hey Ross, September would always be my choice over july - migratory waders are 
here along with many other spring visitors arriving at this time of year but 
never are present here in july... 

cheers, 
martin cachard,
cairns

 
> From: roscoedj AT gmail.com
> To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 10:09:59 +0000
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] RFI Cairns -  best time to visit?
> 
> G’day All,
> 
> 
> Just looking for a little bit of an indication as to what is the better time 
to visit Cairns out of 2 possibilities, July and September. 

> 
> 
> We are also looking at Broome or Kununurra but prices on 4WD hire up that way 
are nuts! 

> 
> 
> We can get a weeks accommodation in Cairns (Clifton Beach) fairly cheaply and 
I was thinking of combining a week there with 3 nights at Kingfisher Lodge. 

> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ross
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Windows Mail
> 
>
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Subject: Re: Silver Gulls nesting at Orange, NSW
From: Carl Clifford <carlsclifford AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 11:15:36 +1100
Seems that Silver Gulls can pick good nesting spots. Have the Lake Canobolas 
birds succeeded in hatching? 


Carl Clifford


> On 20 Oct 2014, at 22:40, Roger Giller  wrote:
> 
> On Sept 18 I observed and photographed a Silver Gull sitting on a nest on a 
pontoon at Lake Canobolas. 

> 
> Roger.
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Carl Clifford
> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 6:14 PM
> To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Silver Gulls nesting at Orange, NSW
> 
> Spent the weekend at Orange, NSW and was kindly shown two sites with nesting 
Silver Gulls. The first site, Wentworth Golf Club, had a pair nesting on a 
pontoon holding up the intake hose for the irrigation system in the dam just by 
the clubhouse. The pair had a single chick just starting to moult from its 
down. The second site was in Suma Park Dam, where there were 4 pairs visibly 
nesting on a small island in the dam (note, access to Suma Park is not open to 
the public). There was a constant stream of SGs flying to and from Suma Park 
and the local tip, so there may be more nesting going on than could be seen 
from my vantage point. 

> 
> Carl Clifford
> 
> 
> 



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Subject: Great customer service - binoculars
From: Hannah <hjbuschy AT hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 09:59:19 +1000
Dear all,

Having had a great after-sale customer service experience, I thought I would 
share. 


My 5 y/o binoculars, Leupolds Cascade Green ring 8x42s, recently became very 
difficult to use - the focus ring went very stiff. As you would know, not being 
able to interchange between close and far focus easily and quickly is quite 
frustrating. 


I found out that Leupold now have an authorized repairer in Australia (as of 
August 2014) - previously it could be up to 10 weeks to see a product return. 
So I took my frustrating binoculars to an authorised dealer (a lot of firearms 
shops are) and they sent them off. Within two weeks I had them back...and I had 
been upgraded to a new edition - Cascade BX2's. They are great! 


A couple of points to make - buying from an Australian authorised distributor 
is a must, they won't look at grey imports, so you may miss the after market 
service in that respect. Also, Leupold are a great mid price range brand not 
often spoken about, possibly due to their association with firearms - they are 
one of the leading rifle scope optics suppliers. 


Anyways, I am a very happy customer and wanted to share a good experience.

Regards,

Hannah 


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Subject: Re: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders?
From: "wildlifeexperiences AT gmail.com" <wildlifeexperiences@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 10:34:27 +1100
Hi Inger,
My 20 cents worth, it's Murray, the Daintree River Boatman. My wife and I were 
out with him in November last year and despite ripping his toe nail off while 
launching the boat, and being in significant pain, he made sure we saw 
everything around the back waters as well as the Daintree :-) 


Yours in all things "green"

John Harris BASc, GDipEd
Director - Wildlife Experiences P/L
Principal Zoologist/Ecologist
Nature Photographer
Wildlife Guide
Croydon, Vic
0409 090 955

President, Field Naturalists Club of Victoria
www.fncv.org.au



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Subject: Re: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders?
From: Martin Butterfield <martinflab AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 09:40:21 +1100
I was going to suggest Chris Dahlberg, but on Googling find that Murray
Hunt has taken over that excellent operation.

Martin

Martin Butterfield
http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/

On 21 October 2014 09:12, Bill Stent  wrote:

> I'd have to agree there, although I've never done a tour with anyone
> else, Murray's tour was excellent, informative and interesting. I
> stuck with him for the whole day (together with one other birder) and
> was not disappointed!
>
> Bill
>
> On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:05 AM, Dominic Chaplin
>  wrote:
> > The best person to try for trips on the Daintree River would definitely
> be BirdLife Northern Queensland Secretary, Murray Hunt
> > http://daintreerivertours.com.au/
> > Cheers,
> > Dominic
> > 
> >
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>
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Subject: Re: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders?
From: Fiona Anderson <fea2003 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 10:01:19 +1100
I totally agree and have done tours with 2 other companies up there.

Regards,   Fiona

Sent from my iPad

> On 21 Oct 2014, at 9:13 am, "Bill Stent"  wrote:
> 
> I'd have to agree there, although I've never done a tour with anyone
> else, Murray's tour was excellent, informative and interesting. I
> stuck with him for the whole day (together with one other birder) and
> was not disappointed!
> 
> Bill
> 
> On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:05 AM, Dominic Chaplin
>  wrote:
>> The best person to try for trips on the Daintree River would definitely be 
BirdLife Northern Queensland Secretary, Murray Hunt 

>> http://daintreerivertours.com.au/
>> Cheers,
>> Dominic
>> 
>>
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Subject: Re: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders?
From: Bill Stent <billstent AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 09:12:58 +1100
I'd have to agree there, although I've never done a tour with anyone
else, Murray's tour was excellent, informative and interesting. I
stuck with him for the whole day (together with one other birder) and
was not disappointed!

Bill

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:05 AM, Dominic Chaplin
 wrote:
> The best person to try for trips on the Daintree River would definitely be 
BirdLife Northern Queensland Secretary, Murray Hunt 

> http://daintreerivertours.com.au/
> Cheers,
> Dominic
> 
>
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Subject: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders?
From: Dominic Chaplin <dominicchaplin AT bigpond.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:05:52 +1000
The best person to try for trips on the Daintree River would definitely be 
BirdLife Northern Queensland Secretary, Murray Hunt 

http://daintreerivertours.com.au/
Cheers,
Dominic 		 	   		  


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Subject: Re: Silver Gulls nesting at Orange, NSW
From: "Roger Giller" <rgiller AT optusnet.com.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 22:40:29 +1100
On Sept 18 I observed and photographed a Silver Gull sitting on a nest on a 
pontoon at Lake Canobolas.

Roger.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Carl Clifford
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 6:14 PM
To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
Subject: [Birding-Aus] Silver Gulls nesting at Orange, NSW

Spent the weekend at Orange, NSW and was kindly shown two sites with nesting 
Silver Gulls. The first site, Wentworth Golf Club, had a pair nesting on a 
pontoon holding up the intake hose for the irrigation system in the dam just 
by the clubhouse. The pair had a single chick just starting to moult from 
its down. The second site was in Suma Park Dam, where there were 4 pairs 
visibly nesting on a small island in the dam (note, access to Suma Park is 
not open to the public). There was a constant stream of SGs flying to and 
from Suma Park and the local tip, so there may be more nesting going on than 
could be seen from my vantage point.

Carl Clifford






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Subject: RFI Best Daintree River Cruise for birders?
From: inger vandyke <ingervandyke AT hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:21:41 +0000
Hi BA Friends,Can you please let me know who operates the best boat tour for 
birders on the Daintree River now? I have some friends heading out there in 
December who are in to bird photography so any help you can provide would be 
great.Best wishesInger 


Inger VandykeProfessional Wildlife Photojournalist and Expedition LeaderTel: 
447582369195Skype: ingervandykewww.ingervandyke.com 

Member International - The Explorer's ClubBoard Member - Southern Oceans 
Seabird Study AssociationTeam Member - Beyond the Smile Womens Literacy 
Program, Solukhumbu Region, NepalMember - Australian National Antarctic 
Research Expeditions (ANARE) Club 

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Subject: Re: Aussie Backyard Bird Count data noisy
From: Tony Ashton <tonyashton0 AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:08:49 +1000
I'm with Andrew in thought of using such listings to  develop estimates of
 error and using others' obvious errors to assist in understanding why so
many birders get it so wrong much of  the time, accepting there'll always
be super optimists and, worse, cheaters.

On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Elliot Leach <
elliot.leach AT griffithuni.edu.au> wrote:

> I'm sure the Birdlife crew is going to be keeping an eye on the data coming
> in Andrew, but I don't envy whoever has to sort through all of these lists!
>
> I agree with you in that it's good news that a wider demographic are trying
> to contribute to this project - they'll just need a bit of practice :)
>
> elliot
>
> On 20 October 2014 08:17, Andrew Taylor  wrote:
>
> > Browsing Aussie Backyard Bird Count list for inner Sydney at
> > http://aussiebirdcount.org.au/sightings/ you find a significant fraction
> > of lists contain obvious mis-identifications.
> >
> > Most like Barn Swallow, Forty-spotted Pardalote, Black Currawong,
> > Black-tailed Native-hen & Carnaby's Black-Cockatoo are easy to
> > understand. And perhaps the reporter of Abbott's Booby from
> > Newtown was making a political point.  Others IDs are just mysterious
> > like Black Grasswren.
> >
> > In one way its good news that a wider demographic has been attracted,
> > although there is clearly challenges ahead to educate observers &
> > improve the observations and make the data useful.
> >
> > The mis-ID could be useful, to estimate observer accuracy, someone
> > reporting (say) Black Currawong shouldn't be relied to have correctly
> > ID'ed Little Wattlebird & White-faced Honyeater they've also reported.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > 
> >
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Subject: RFI Cairns - best time to visit?
From: <roscoedj AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 10:09:59 +0000
G’day All,


Just looking for a little bit of an indication as to what is the better time to 
visit Cairns out of 2 possibilities, July and September. 



We are also looking at Broome or Kununurra but prices on 4WD hire up that way 
are nuts! 



We can get a weeks accommodation in Cairns (Clifton Beach) fairly cheaply and I 
was thinking of combining a week there with 3 nights at Kingfisher Lodge. 



Cheers,

Ross






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Subject: Re: Aussie Backyard Bird Count data noisy
From: "Alec & Catherine Gillespie" <imlay AT tpg.com.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:28:17 +1100
It is not so easy to use the app whilst actually birding, especially in the
rain.  Has anyone any idea how to make a correction after it has been
submitted?  I put down the wrong bird - White-browed treecreeper, and I
should have entered White-throated.  I did not notice until after I had
submitted it.  I suspect at least some of the improbable  species noted are
just errors in using the app. 
Catherine Gillespie

-----Original Message-----
From: Birding-Aus [mailto:birding-aus-bounces AT birding-aus.org] On Behalf Of
Andrew Taylor
Sent: Monday, 20 October 2014 9:17 AM
To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
Subject: [Birding-Aus] Aussie Backyard Bird Count data noisy

Browsing Aussie Backyard Bird Count list for inner Sydney at
http://aussiebirdcount.org.au/sightings/ you find a significant fraction
of lists contain obvious mis-identifications.

Most like Barn Swallow, Forty-spotted Pardalote, Black Currawong,
Black-tailed Native-hen & Carnaby's Black-Cockatoo are easy to
understand. And perhaps the reporter of Abbott's Booby from
Newtown was making a political point.  Others IDs are just mysterious
like Black Grasswren.

In one way its good news that a wider demographic has been attracted,
although there is clearly challenges ahead to educate observers &
improve the observations and make the data useful.
 
The mis-ID could be useful, to estimate observer accuracy, someone
reporting (say) Black Currawong shouldn't be relied to have correctly
ID'ed Little Wattlebird & White-faced Honyeater they've also reported.

Andrew



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Subject: Last thoughts on Banding
From: "Geoffrey Allan Jones" <gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:48:42 +1100
At this point in time this will be my last post on this matter and I will
not reply to anymore postings, I would like to thank the people who have
sent me there personal concerns on this matter privately and who wish to
remain anonymous. When I start to see postings that say hatred in them it is
time to leave this subject alone for a while as it will only become tit for
tat or he said we said etc etc. 

 

One last and very important thing Birds do get Stressed and a percentage of
them when caught in Nets either are injured or die, I have been told this by
people who previously have done banding and have seen it with my own eyes so
that is a fact not a myth! 

 

Kindest Regards

Geoff Jones



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Subject: Re: A Band of Birders & Others
From: Ian May <birding AT ozemail.com.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 19:51:57 +1100
Hi all

Adverse impacts from banding local passerines is not comparable to the 
destruction caused by canon netting and marking small long distant 
migratory waders such as Stints, Curlew Sandpiper, Red Knot or 
Sanderling etc etc.. with multiple combinations of large brightly 
coloured leg flags.

The debate should be about the main problem; serious impacts and losses 
caused to rare and endangered migratory birds from destructive banding 
practices i.e.. organised mass bird trapping using canon nets and then, 
leg flagging, especially multiple leg flagging and banding of many 
individuals.   Apart from the well documented trauma from canon netting, 
physical injury to birds, site feeding aversion, roosting site 
disturbance etc etc; there are multiple hidden impacts to the subjects 
caused by leg flagging.   Tangling, fatigue, disadvantage to feed 
competitively, predator attraction, impeding flight maneuverability, 
effect on long distant flight aerodynamics and behavior interactions; 
these are just a few of the questions that should be answered before any 
more wader leg flagging/banding is permitted

Resulting from organised "mass targeting of waders" at strategic bird 
migration hot spots, the affect is no longer on a small percentage of 
individuals; affected birds comprise a large percentage of the world 
population.  So called ringing stations and banding sites are dotted 
across the planet and there appear to be no real protected areas 
offering any protection for waders from destructive banding practices..


Ian May
St Helens
Tasmania

------------------------------------------------------------------------




Greg and Val Clancy wrote:

> I, like Damien, was greatly concerned at the unsubstantiated claims 
> made by Geoff and although I was thinking that it was better to leave 
> sleeping dogs lie these claims could not be left unchallenged.  Damien 
> has done a great job in doing this but I know that people who have an 
> irrational hatred for something will not be swayed by facts.  However 
> I will provide some more facts and some personal examples.  To obtain 
> an A class bird banding licence involves banding over 500 birds under 
> the direct supervision of two A class banders.  You can't band bird 
> anywhere you want as you have to have a specific project which is not 
> that easy to obtain.  Most projects are covered by an animal care and 
> ethics approval and the approving committees usually have a broad 
> representation including animal rights organisations. In addition 
> banders require a state scientific licence with strict conditions and 
> reporting requirements.  The Australian Bird and Bat Banding Scheme in 
> Canberra maintains a database of all birds banded and advises members 
> of the public of banding details when banded birds are found. Banding 
> allows the distances moved by birds to be accurately determined as 
> well as recoding how long they live.  Prior to banding studies 
> scientists thought that due to their high metabolic rates small birds 
> would only be able to live for about 5 or 6 years.  Banding has shown 
> that small passerines can live as long as 18 years - I personally 
> retrapped a White-browed Scrubwren at that age - and larger birds such 
> as Oystercatchers have reached 30 years.  The details for each species 
> banded in Australia can be found on the Australian Bird and Bat 
> Banding Scheme's website.  The longest distance recorded and the 
> longest time between banding and recovery are also presented for each 
> species.  This is worth reading.  The fact that we are retrapping 
> birds many years after banding and sometimes a number of times over 
> the years indicates that the stress of banding is minimal.  An example 
> of how relaxed birds are when being handled is while handling a 
> honeyeater a fly landed on my hand and the bird casually reached over 
> and snapped the fly in its bill.  On another occasion a Lewin's 
> Honeyeater that I released flopped to the ground.  I was a little 
> concerned at first but what it was dong was hopping over to a fruit of 
> the Strangler Fig that had fallen to the ground.  It ate its fill and 
> flew off strongly a few minutes later.  People who cannot handle birds 
> with care will not get a licence to band.  The welfare of the birds is 
> always paramount in banding activities. In the rare instance that a 
> problem arises band sizes, banding techniques etc. are reviewed.  Some 
> species are not allowed to be banded because of problems with bands.
>
> So in summary Geoff you can see that banders don't just race around 
> the country banding birds willy-nilly and unduly stressing birds.  
> Banding is a heavy regulated activity that requires a great commitment 
> from the bander who also spends hours of his/her own time and usually 
> covers all travelling and equipment expenses because banders do care 
> about the welfare of birds and do regularly think about the positives 
> and negatives of their activities.  It is good to know that people 
> care about the welfare of our birds but if you don't like banding then 
> don't participate in it but please stop trying to undermine, with 
> unsubstantiated claims, an important activity which is contributing 
> significantly to our knowledge of birds.
>
>
> Regards
> Greg
>
> Dr Greg. P. Clancy
> Ecologist and Birding-wildlife Guide
> | PO Box 63 Coutts Crossing NSW 2460
> | 02 6649 3153  | 0429 601 960
> http://www.gregclancyecologistguide.com
> http://gregswildliferamblings.blogspot.com.au/
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Damien Farine
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 4:03 AM
> To: Geoffrey Allan Jones ; birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] A Band of Birders & Others
>
> Firstly: my motivation for continuing on this debate is that there is 
> obviously a general lack of awareness about many issues and benefits 
> of studying birds, combined with some deep concerns about the welfare 
> of doing this.
> Geoff,A few answers to your questions.
> First, there has been extensive research on the effects of banding. 
> For example here is a nice study relating to waders by some very 
> well-regarded researchers: http://goo.gl/ABYwco. Some studies will 
> also report detrimental effects in order to encourage avoiding that 
> technique for a particular species. These make recommendations that 
> are then generally enforced by the banding office.
> I think that the main issue with this debate stems from people being 
> opposed to cannon netting. Let me again re-assure you that cannon 
> netting is rare. As far as I know, only a handful of people are even 
> licensed to do it, and these people are typically involved in active 
> research. I don't have experience with shorebirds, but it is 
> exceedingly rare that a bird is injured in a mist-net (rates of 
> self-injury must be less than 1/10000). One way that birds are killed 
> is by predators while caught in a net (in this case it happens very 
> fast). This is avoidable by keeping a good lookout.
> Birds are not flushed into mist-nets. In general, banders rely on 
> placing mist-nets in flyways, hoping to catch birds as they move 
> through the landscape. Birds are very rarely 'jabbed' for blood 
> samples - this is really only done for very targeted studies (and 
> becoming rarer as techniques are enabling more and more data to be 
> extracted from foecal samples).
> In many cases, banding is important for keeping track of the actual 
> population size. I suspect that this is what is being done with the 
> orange-bellied parrots. No one claims that banding helps the birds 
> survive - again I re-iterate that conservation is achieved by 
> implementing actions based on knowledge, and knowledge can only be 
> gained by research.
> Now what I find most disturbing about your post is the use of terms 
> such as 'so-called sake of research'. The political climate in 
> Australia is totally decimating science. There is almost no money left 
> for basic exploratory/discovery research. Yet this is the foundation 
> of our knowledge. The fact that, in this country, even people that are 
> obviously interested in these issues and identify as nature-lovers do 
> not support scientific endeavour is simply frightening. For example, 
> studying the response of common species to different environmental 
> changes tells us a great deal more than studying rare or endangered 
> species - and we should be encouraging all possible avenues of enquiry 
> in these times of massive change. Instead, we are moving towards a 
> model where only science with a direct application is viewed as 
> important - both in terms of government research but also increasingly 
> in the eyes of the general public.
> As I stated in my first post - the vast majority of birds that are 
> banded are part of active research targeted at gaining knowledge about 
> various species. There have been hundreds of PhD students that have 
> studied the ecology and conservation biology of largely unknown 
> Australian species. This information is money in the bank, but is 
> generally only achievable by having each individual uniquely 
> identifiable. Hence, unlike shooting birds, which was based largely on 
> describing species and their distribution, banding enables us to 
> collect a wealth of knowledge that, one day, may be invaluable.
> I think that, before criticising banding in general, it may be helpful 
> to find ways to help build understanding surrounding scientific 
> activities so that people can make informed decisions. I know that 
> most universities in Australia allow the public to attend many of the 
> seminars they run. Approaching biology and ecology departments at a 
> local university is one way getting more exposure to some of the great 
> work being done out there. Sadly, in Australia there is very little 
> media coverage of discovery science (unlike say on the BBC: 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature).
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
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Subject: Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
From: Andrew Silcocks <andrew.silcocks AT birdlife.org.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 05:24:44 +0000
Just to clarify questions about birdata and the Atlas. BirdLife Australia is 
developing a Bird Conservation Portal that will include: 


- an upgraded birdata interface and an app for our programs
- an Important Bird and Biodiversity Area (IBA) site database
- coordination of site surveys and volunteer support
- HANZAB online (searchable)
- Australian Field Ornithology and Emu online
- ornithological library resource
- State of Australia's Birds and an Australian Bird Index

Birdata is squarely aimed at long term structured monitoring and lots of work 
has gone into ensuring it will be more user friendly, avoid multiple data entry 
and provide real time feedback. It will allow local groups to set up their own 
pages (with maps and tables etc) and moderate data for long term monitoring 
projects. You will also be able to share data with your eBird list. 


The portal is a core priority for BirdLife Australia. We want to promote 
structured site surveys more widely so we can apply robust science to protect 
birds. Work on the portal is underway but clearly it is an ambitious project 
that requires ongoing funding. Thanks to everyone who has supported this 
exciting project so far. 


The science portal and Eremaea eBird are very complementary - eBird users are 
skilled citizen scientists and we'd like to more people to participate in our 
conservation programs. 


Regarding the issues people have been reporting with Birdata, Andrew Silcocks 
has provided the following comments: Birdata was created to be the online data 
entry portal which fed data into the master Atlas database, which was offline. 
The two are linked so that data can flow between the two databases. 
Unfortunately the link from the master database to Birdata has been giving up 
problems, which means that not all of the data are displayed in the statistics 
and maps. We haven't had any problems with the master Atlas database, which 
safely houses all of the data. With the development of the new Bird 
Conservation Portal, a new Birdata will be completely revamped and will become 
the master database. At the moment, all of our resources are going into funding 
the new portal, so the problems with the current/old version of Birdata 
probably won't be resolved. Apologies for the inconvenience and confusion this 
has caused. Rest assured, all of the data in the BirdLife Australia Atlas are 
safe and being put to good use. 


Enjoy the weekend and don't forget to take part in the Aussie Backyard Bird 
Count. 




Paul Sullivan

BirdLife Australia






[Aussie Backyard Bird Count]


Count me in!
I want to register for the first ever Aussie Backyard Bird Count 20-26 October 
2014 

Click here to register






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Subject: Bird Banding
From: Carl Clifford <carlsclifford AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:27:15 +1100
Once again the argument regarding the alleged death and injury to birds by bird 
banders has reared its head on Birding Aus. It is unfortunate that those in the 
anti-banding camp do not spend their energies campaigning against the greatest 
killers of birds in Australia, vehicle and building strikes and habitat 
destruction. Every year, tens of thousands of birds are killed by vehicle and 
building strikes in Australia and goodness knows how many are killed by habitat 
destruction. 


If those in the anti-banding camp are serious about their cause, they would be 
campaigning to the various Ministers for the Environment, not just wailing in 
the wilderness of B-A. I am quite sure that the Federal Minister, Greg Hunt 
would be able to help. After all, he has declared the end of loss of threatened 
and endangered mammals by 2020. If he can do that, elimination of death and 
injury to birds by banding should be a doddle for him. 


Carl Clifford




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Subject: Re: Bird banding
From: Damien Farine <swiss7 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 11:04:42 +1100
Graeme,
Great post and thanks for contributing. I agree that there is great variance in 
how responsible different banders are. This is largely what prompted my 
original support for this debate because I really think that i) banders should 
frequently reflect on what they are achieving and what their motivations are 
for doing what they do, and ii) because I actually think that the system should 
include some re-evaluation of projects and even licenses. A great deal of 
importance is placed on initial training, but far less on maintaining best 
practices. 

Most importantly though, I also believe that most birds that are caught in 
mist-nets are done so as part of active research (here I say birds caught 
rather than bands used, because these projects often have reasonably high 
recapture rates). In these studies, every individual is invaluable, and when 
you've waited 5 years for a particular bird to mature and start providing some 
reproductive data, you'll gladly spend the extra time watching nets rather than 
having a cuppa. 

I'd probably agree with an estimate of a 1% death rate. However, to put that 
into context, all animal testing (such as for medical trials - the only 
research our government seems to be interested in funding) has 100% death rate. 
But, more seriously, this is in line with other animal research (e.g. mammals 
http://goo.gl/ihGnVt), and is about at the acceptable rate for animal ethics 
committees (typically 0.5-2% in my experience). Less seriously (perhaps) is 
that this is a drop in the ocean compared to how many chickens are alive at any 
one time and awaiting slaughter (estimated around 19 billion). 





> From: naturalight AT graemechapman.com.au
> Subject: Bird banding
> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 10:06:34 +1100
> CC: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> To: swiss7 AT hotmail.com
> 
> 
> Hello Damien,
> 
> First of all I agree with what you said in your latest post on Birding-aus , 
in particular the failure of recent governments in Australia (mainly Federal) 
to support science and the environment. We should all put our money where our 
mouth is and support AWC. 

> 
>  However I would like to make the odd qualifier.
> 
> I was a professional ornithologist and bird bander all of my working life - 
without bird banding (in particular individually colour-banded birds) we could 
not have carried out the research we did. 

> 
> During that time, and before when I was a teenager I also banded birds as an 
amateur in conjunction with many of the leading bird-banders of the era. I have 
been there and done that. I've also probably seen all the bad things - events 
that happened that may have been preventable with hindsight, but nobody's 
perfect. 

> 
> About predators and mist nets. Such deaths are as you say avoidable by 
keeping a good lookout. People don't! I have seen nets only checked once every 
half-hour. By and large I would say amateurs set as many nets as they can, 
because their measure of success is often how many birds they catch in a 
session. 

> 
> Overall in my experience I would estimate the death rate associated with mist 
netting as about 1%. All sorts of things happen - Brown Thornbills die in your 
hand (from shock) - predators ( Catbirds are the worst in rainforest) - I have 
known of nets left overnight accidentally containing dead birds the next 
morning - No 1 mist nets left too long can cause small birds to be so badly 
tangled that birds can barely fly when released - and finally poorly fitted 
bands can cause injury, not common but it happens. 

> 
> Many bird banders will deny any of this happens but they aren't telling the 
truth - out in the bush there are no witnesses! 

> 
> Now about cannon nets. Wrongly set, or fired when the birds are in the wrong 
position, cannon nets behead birds. Fortunately few people do and the experts 
will have learnt by experience, Having to house and process a large number 
birds in hot weather is a very difficult undertaking. By and large I don't know 
what the death rate would be, but rest assured there would be one. People are 
reluctant to report or even talk about this sort of thing. 

> 
> The big question is whether in the name of science, is it worth it? I believe 
it is so long as it really is science and not just weekend entertainment. 
Compared with loss of habitat, introduced predators including man, climate 
change and all the other variables, the negatives of bird banding are a drop in 
the ocean. 

> 
> Regards
> 
> Graeme Chapman  ( graemechapman.com.au) 
 		 	   		  


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Subject: Re: Aussie Backyard Bird Count data noisy
From: Elliot Leach <elliot.leach AT griffithuni.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:46:48 +1000
I'm sure the Birdlife crew is going to be keeping an eye on the data coming
in Andrew, but I don't envy whoever has to sort through all of these lists!

I agree with you in that it's good news that a wider demographic are trying
to contribute to this project - they'll just need a bit of practice :)

elliot

On 20 October 2014 08:17, Andrew Taylor  wrote:

> Browsing Aussie Backyard Bird Count list for inner Sydney at
> http://aussiebirdcount.org.au/sightings/ you find a significant fraction
> of lists contain obvious mis-identifications.
>
> Most like Barn Swallow, Forty-spotted Pardalote, Black Currawong,
> Black-tailed Native-hen & Carnaby's Black-Cockatoo are easy to
> understand. And perhaps the reporter of Abbott's Booby from
> Newtown was making a political point.  Others IDs are just mysterious
> like Black Grasswren.
>
> In one way its good news that a wider demographic has been attracted,
> although there is clearly challenges ahead to educate observers &
> improve the observations and make the data useful.
>
> The mis-ID could be useful, to estimate observer accuracy, someone
> reporting (say) Black Currawong shouldn't be relied to have correctly
> ID'ed Little Wattlebird & White-faced Honyeater they've also reported.
>
> Andrew
>
> 
>
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Subject: Birdline Australian Capital Territory Weekly Update
From: notifications AT eremaea.com
Date: 20 Oct 2014 08:06:39 +1000
   Birdline Australian Capital Territory

   Published sightings for the week ending 19 Oct 2014.

   Thu 16 Oct Swamp Harrier Kellys Swamp
   Flew across Dairy Rd (flight style a harrier giveaway and clear white
   rump for Swamp). Scared the daylights out of every duckon the Swamp.
   Martin Butterfield
   Little Bittern Cook
   At approx 12.30 today a Little Bittern was flushed from beside our
   garden pond. At a guess it was about 25 cms in length with a brownish
   rather than black crown. Buff below with a brown streak down the throat
   and upper breast. The lores were yellow and the bird was not as dark as
   male Little Bitterns we have seen. We think it was likely an adult
   female. It flew up into our apple tree and then took refuge (with bill
   pointed skywards) in a dense shrub. Noisy Miners arrived in some
   numbers to harass it but soon lost interest. We have several more
   photos.
   Kim and Geoff Larmour
   Wed 15 Oct White-winged Black Tern Fyshwick Sewage Treatment Plant
   An adult White-winged Black Tern in non-breeding plumage was present
   with 3 Whiskered Terns in breeding plumage mostly over pond 3a at the
   Fyshwick Sewage Treatment Plant from 13:00 to at least 16:00. The birds
   were readily viewed from Dairy Flat Road. [Moderator's comment: this is
   the first ever record of the species for the ACT]
   PJ Milburn


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Subject: Birdline Central & Southern Queensland Weekly Update
From: notifications AT eremaea.com
Date: 20 Oct 2014 08:11:23 +1000
   Birdline Central & Southern Queensland

   Published sightings for the week ending 19 Oct 2014.

   Sun 19 Oct Cotton Pygmy-Goose Bundaberg--Baldwin Swamp Environment Park
   The picture shows 2 pairs, later I observed at least 12 pairs scattered
   through-out the wetlands.
   Stephen Gallivan
   Sat 18 Oct Brown Booby Offshore--Southport pelagic
   In addition to Rob's note, I'd like to add an immature Brown Booby,
   seen on today's Southport Pelagic.
   Nikolas Haass and all on board the Souhport Pelagic organised by Paul
   Walbridge
   Gibson's Albatross, White-throated Needletail Offshore--Southport
   pelagic
   A fairly average October trip with 15 species. Good numbers of
   Short-tailed Shearwaters migrating, and 3 Gibson's Albatrosses which
   are a scarce bird in SEQ. Also a couple of Needletails going south.
   Rob Morris and all on board the Southport Pelagic organised by Paul
   Walbridge
   Thu 16 Oct Brush Cuckoo, Satin Flycatcher, Glossy Ibis Sandy Camp Road
   Wetlands
   At Sandy Camp from 7-8am, water bodies are driest I've seen for a
   while. Two Glossy Ibis were in the front-most pond. Brush Cuckoo &
   Satin Flycatcher were round the back, along the margins of the big
   rearmost pond. Brush Cuckoo was in low vegetation on the left-turn to
   said pond, calling persistently and then seen feeding on a large
   caterpillar. Satin Flycatcher male was seen well in a bare tree at the
   junction of that pond. Colour on head and back was more even and glossy
   than Leadens (which were common throughout), the breast demarcation
   bent downwards and call was slightly different, with a distinct
   whistled follow-through to the standard 'schrep schrep' call.
   Russell Yong
   Tue 14 Oct Rose Crowned Fruit Dove Osprey House Environmental Centre
   Solitary Rose Crowned Fruit Dove sitting briefly in Casurina tree
   eastern extension to boardwalk at Osprey House Environment Centre,
   Dohles Rocks Rd, Griffin. Qld
   Pip Grant-Taylor
   Grey Plover Toorbul--high tide roost
   Grey Plover seen in company with some Grey-tailed Tattlers at Toorbul
   Point north from the high tide roost.
   Geoff Walker
   Grey Plover Toorbul - high tide roost
   Present again today,100 yards North of roost
   Ross and Natalie Sinclair
   Black-faced Monarch Walter Zimmerman Park, Pine Mt
   Seen them around the nearby gully before. Having found a snack, it flew
   my way and buzzed! (30m South of the northern pipeline crossing).
   Peter Horler
   White-winged Triller Walter Zimmerman Park, Pine Mt
   Unexpected, shiny white, with its black cap, around 15m up in the
   eucalypts. Had the distinct impression that it was passing through.
   (just South of where the park track leaves the Rail Trail)
   Peter Horler


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Subject: Birdline Australia Weekly Update
From: notifications AT eremaea.com
Date: 20 Oct 2014 08:02:54 +1000
   Birdline Australia

   Published sightings for the week ending 19 Oct 2014.


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Subject: Bird banding
From: Graeme Chapman <naturalight AT graemechapman.com.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 10:06:34 +1100
Hello Damien,

First of all I agree with what you said in your latest post on Birding-aus , in 
particular the failure of recent governments in Australia (mainly Federal) to 
support science and the environment. We should all put our money where our 
mouth is and support AWC. 


 However I would like to make the odd qualifier.

I was a professional ornithologist and bird bander all of my working life - 
without bird banding (in particular individually colour-banded birds) we could 
not have carried out the research we did. 


During that time, and before when I was a teenager I also banded birds as an 
amateur in conjunction with many of the leading bird-banders of the era. I have 
been there and done that. I've also probably seen all the bad things - events 
that happened that may have been preventable with hindsight, but nobody's 
perfect. 


About predators and mist nets. Such deaths are as you say avoidable by keeping 
a good lookout. People don't! I have seen nets only checked once every 
half-hour. By and large I would say amateurs set as many nets as they can, 
because their measure of success is often how many birds they catch in a 
session. 


Overall in my experience I would estimate the death rate associated with mist 
netting as about 1%. All sorts of things happen - Brown Thornbills die in your 
hand (from shock) - predators ( Catbirds are the worst in rainforest) - I have 
known of nets left overnight accidentally containing dead birds the next 
morning - No 1 mist nets left too long can cause small birds to be so badly 
tangled that birds can barely fly when released - and finally poorly fitted 
bands can cause injury, not common but it happens. 


Many bird banders will deny any of this happens but they aren't telling the 
truth - out in the bush there are no witnesses! 


Now about cannon nets. Wrongly set, or fired when the birds are in the wrong 
position, cannon nets behead birds. Fortunately few people do and the experts 
will have learnt by experience, Having to house and process a large number 
birds in hot weather is a very difficult undertaking. By and large I don't know 
what the death rate would be, but rest assured there would be one. People are 
reluctant to report or even talk about this sort of thing. 


The big question is whether in the name of science, is it worth it? I believe 
it is so long as it really is science and not just weekend entertainment. 
Compared with loss of habitat, introduced predators including man, climate 
change and all the other variables, the negatives of bird banding are a drop in 
the ocean. 


Regards

Graeme Chapman  ( graemechapman.com.au) 


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Subject: Re: A Band of Birders & Others
From: "Greg and Val Clancy" <gclancy AT tpg.com.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:44:58 +1100
I, like Damien, was greatly concerned at the unsubstantiated claims made by 
Geoff and although I was thinking that it was better to leave sleeping dogs 
lie these claims could not be left unchallenged.  Damien has done a great 
job in doing this but I know that people who have an irrational hatred for 
something will not be swayed by facts.  However I will provide some more 
facts and some personal examples.  To obtain an A class bird banding licence 
involves banding over 500 birds under the direct supervision of two A class 
banders.  You can't band bird anywhere you want as you have to have a 
specific project which is not that easy to obtain.  Most projects are 
covered by an animal care and ethics approval and the approving committees 
usually have a broad representation including animal rights organisations. 
In addition banders require a state scientific licence with strict 
conditions and reporting requirements.  The Australian Bird and Bat Banding 
Scheme in Canberra maintains a database of all birds banded and advises 
members of the public of banding details when banded birds are found. 
Banding allows the distances moved by birds to be accurately determined as 
well as recoding how long they live.  Prior to banding studies scientists 
thought that due to their high metabolic rates small birds would only be 
able to live for about 5 or 6 years.  Banding has shown that small 
passerines can live as long as 18 years - I personally retrapped a 
White-browed Scrubwren at that age - and larger birds such as Oystercatchers 
have reached 30 years.  The details for each species banded in Australia can 
be found on the Australian Bird and Bat Banding Scheme's website.  The 
longest distance recorded and the longest time between banding and recovery 
are also presented for each species.  This is worth reading.  The fact that 
we are retrapping birds many years after banding and sometimes a number of 
times over the years indicates that the stress of banding is minimal.  An 
example of how relaxed birds are when being handled is while handling a 
honeyeater a fly landed on my hand and the bird casually reached over and 
snapped the fly in its bill.  On another occasion a Lewin's Honeyeater that 
I released flopped to the ground.  I was a little concerned at first but 
what it was dong was hopping over to a fruit of the Strangler Fig that had 
fallen to the ground.  It ate its fill and flew off strongly a few minutes 
later.  People who cannot handle birds with care will not get a licence to 
band.  The welfare of the birds is always paramount in banding activities. 
In the rare instance that a problem arises band sizes, banding techniques 
etc. are reviewed.  Some species are not allowed to be banded because of 
problems with bands.

So in summary Geoff you can see that banders don't just race around the 
country banding birds willy-nilly and unduly stressing birds.  Banding is a 
heavy regulated activity that requires a great commitment from the bander 
who also spends hours of his/her own time and usually covers all travelling 
and equipment expenses because banders do care about the welfare of birds 
and do regularly think about the positives and negatives of their 
activities.  It is good to know that people care about the welfare of our 
birds but if you don't like banding then don't participate in it but please 
stop trying to undermine, with unsubstantiated claims, an important activity 
which is contributing significantly to our knowledge of birds.


Regards
Greg

Dr Greg. P. Clancy
Ecologist and Birding-wildlife Guide
| PO Box 63 Coutts Crossing NSW 2460
| 02 6649 3153  | 0429 601 960
http://www.gregclancyecologistguide.com
http://gregswildliferamblings.blogspot.com.au/


-----Original Message----- 
From: Damien Farine
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 4:03 AM
To: Geoffrey Allan Jones ; birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] A Band of Birders & Others

Firstly: my motivation for continuing on this debate is that there is 
obviously a general lack of awareness about many issues and benefits of 
studying birds, combined with some deep concerns about the welfare of doing 
this.
Geoff,A few answers to your questions.
First, there has been extensive research on the effects of banding. For 
example here is a nice study relating to waders by some very well-regarded 
researchers: http://goo.gl/ABYwco. Some studies will also report detrimental 
effects in order to encourage avoiding that technique for a particular 
species. These make recommendations that are then generally enforced by the 
banding office.
I think that the main issue with this debate stems from people being opposed 
to cannon netting. Let me again re-assure you that cannon netting is rare. 
As far as I know, only a handful of people are even licensed to do it, and 
these people are typically involved in active research. I don't have 
experience with shorebirds, but it is exceedingly rare that a bird is 
injured in a mist-net (rates of self-injury must be less than 1/10000). One 
way that birds are killed is by predators while caught in a net (in this 
case it happens very fast). This is avoidable by keeping a good lookout.
Birds are not flushed into mist-nets. In general, banders rely on placing 
mist-nets in flyways, hoping to catch birds as they move through the 
landscape. Birds are very rarely 'jabbed' for blood samples - this is really 
only done for very targeted studies (and becoming rarer as techniques are 
enabling more and more data to be extracted from foecal samples).
In many cases, banding is important for keeping track of the actual 
population size. I suspect that this is what is being done with the 
orange-bellied parrots. No one claims that banding helps the birds survive - 
again I re-iterate that conservation is achieved by implementing actions 
based on knowledge, and knowledge can only be gained by research.
Now what I find most disturbing about your post is the use of terms such as 
'so-called sake of research'. The political climate in Australia is totally 
decimating science. There is almost no money left for basic 
exploratory/discovery research. Yet this is the foundation of our knowledge. 
The fact that, in this country, even people that are obviously interested in 
these issues and identify as nature-lovers do not support scientific 
endeavour is simply frightening. For example, studying the response of 
common species to different environmental changes tells us a great deal more 
than studying rare or endangered species - and we should be encouraging all 
possible avenues of enquiry in these times of massive change. Instead, we 
are moving towards a model where only science with a direct application is 
viewed as important - both in terms of government research but also 
increasingly in the eyes of the general public.
As I stated in my first post - the vast majority of birds that are banded 
are part of active research targeted at gaining knowledge about various 
species. There have been hundreds of PhD students that have studied the 
ecology and conservation biology of largely unknown Australian species. This 
information is money in the bank, but is generally only achievable by having 
each individual uniquely identifiable. Hence, unlike shooting birds, which 
was based largely on describing species and their distribution, banding 
enables us to collect a wealth of knowledge that, one day, may be 
invaluable.
I think that, before criticising banding in general, it may be helpful to 
find ways to help build understanding surrounding scientific activities so 
that people can make informed decisions. I know that most universities in 
Australia allow the public to attend many of the seminars they run. 
Approaching biology and ecology departments at a local university is one way 
getting more exposure to some of the great work being done out there. Sadly, 
in Australia there is very little media coverage of discovery science 
(unlike say on the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature).







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Subject: Aussie Backyard Bird Count data noisy
From: Andrew Taylor <andrewt AT cse.unsw.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 09:17:10 +1100
Browsing Aussie Backyard Bird Count list for inner Sydney at
http://aussiebirdcount.org.au/sightings/ you find a significant fraction
of lists contain obvious mis-identifications.

Most like Barn Swallow, Forty-spotted Pardalote, Black Currawong,
Black-tailed Native-hen & Carnaby's Black-Cockatoo are easy to
understand. And perhaps the reporter of Abbott's Booby from
Newtown was making a political point.  Others IDs are just mysterious
like Black Grasswren.

In one way its good news that a wider demographic has been attracted,
although there is clearly challenges ahead to educate observers &
improve the observations and make the data useful.
 
The mis-ID could be useful, to estimate observer accuracy, someone
reporting (say) Black Currawong shouldn't be relied to have correctly
ID'ed Little Wattlebird & White-faced Honyeater they've also reported.

Andrew



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Subject: Regent honeyeaters
From: Garry Clark <gclark AT skymesh.com.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 07:12:10 +1100
Observed two fledglings Regent Honeyeaters being feed by two adults over a 
period of four hours on the 19 Oct at Ironbark Creek on the Nangarah bird 
route, Barraba. Photo and video taken. 

Observers: Beth Williams, Jim Palmer & Garry Clark. 

Sent from my iPhone


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Subject: Re: A Band of Birders & Others
From: Damien Farine <swiss7 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 04:03:26 +1100
Firstly: my motivation for continuing on this debate is that there is obviously 
a general lack of awareness about many issues and benefits of studying birds, 
combined with some deep concerns about the welfare of doing this. 

Geoff,A few answers to your questions.
First, there has been extensive research on the effects of banding. For example 
here is a nice study relating to waders by some very well-regarded researchers: 
http://goo.gl/ABYwco. Some studies will also report detrimental effects in 
order to encourage avoiding that technique for a particular species. These make 
recommendations that are then generally enforced by the banding office. 

I think that the main issue with this debate stems from people being opposed to 
cannon netting. Let me again re-assure you that cannon netting is rare. As far 
as I know, only a handful of people are even licensed to do it, and these 
people are typically involved in active research. I don't have experience with 
shorebirds, but it is exceedingly rare that a bird is injured in a mist-net 
(rates of self-injury must be less than 1/10000). One way that birds are killed 
is by predators while caught in a net (in this case it happens very fast). This 
is avoidable by keeping a good lookout. 

Birds are not flushed into mist-nets. In general, banders rely on placing 
mist-nets in flyways, hoping to catch birds as they move through the landscape. 
Birds are very rarely 'jabbed' for blood samples - this is really only done for 
very targeted studies (and becoming rarer as techniques are enabling more and 
more data to be extracted from foecal samples). 

In many cases, banding is important for keeping track of the actual population 
size. I suspect that this is what is being done with the orange-bellied 
parrots. No one claims that banding helps the birds survive - again I 
re-iterate that conservation is achieved by implementing actions based on 
knowledge, and knowledge can only be gained by research. 

Now what I find most disturbing about your post is the use of terms such as 
'so-called sake of research'. The political climate in Australia is totally 
decimating science. There is almost no money left for basic 
exploratory/discovery research. Yet this is the foundation of our knowledge. 
The fact that, in this country, even people that are obviously interested in 
these issues and identify as nature-lovers do not support scientific endeavour 
is simply frightening. For example, studying the response of common species to 
different environmental changes tells us a great deal more than studying rare 
or endangered species - and we should be encouraging all possible avenues of 
enquiry in these times of massive change. Instead, we are moving towards a 
model where only science with a direct application is viewed as important - 
both in terms of government research but also increasingly in the eyes of the 
general public. 

As I stated in my first post - the vast majority of birds that are banded are 
part of active research targeted at gaining knowledge about various species. 
There have been hundreds of PhD students that have studied the ecology and 
conservation biology of largely unknown Australian species. This information is 
money in the bank, but is generally only achievable by having each individual 
uniquely identifiable. Hence, unlike shooting birds, which was based largely on 
describing species and their distribution, banding enables us to collect a 
wealth of knowledge that, one day, may be invaluable. 

I think that, before criticising banding in general, it may be helpful to find 
ways to help build understanding surrounding scientific activities so that 
people can make informed decisions. I know that most universities in Australia 
allow the public to attend many of the seminars they run. Approaching biology 
and ecology departments at a local university is one way getting more exposure 
to some of the great work being done out there. Sadly, in Australia there is 
very little media coverage of discovery science (unlike say on the BBC: 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature). 




From: gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au
To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
CC: swiss7 AT hotmail.com; markcarey82 AT hotmail.com
Subject: A Band of Birders & Others
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 16:18:48 +1100

Gidday Everyone Please remember this is just a point of few from different 
sides and there is nothing personal against anyone on this forum. Bird Banding 
is certainly a touchy subject and my original post was very emotional, I have 
calmed down now and slowly thought about the subject. I have in no way changed 
my view on this subject and as Damien has put his views forward point by point, 
can I challenge what he has said, in some ways? For there is no Federal or 
State funding on the detrimental effects of banding birds for the sake of 
research and what evidence can I and people who want to remain anonymous give 
back about banding, please also remember I am not against all banding if it is 
for the sake of critical research to save a species. No 1 What happens to birds 
that are injured when either they are caught in a mist net or when Cannon 
Netting are they sent off to be looked after by carers or do they have their 
necks rung to put them out of their misery. No 2 Birds flush naturally if a 
person or animal gets too close to them that is their most natural instinct and 
in no way does it cause stress to a bird it is there natural defence.If a bird 
is called in, it can leave of its own free will and I for one do notice that if 
a bird is agitated I immediately stop the call as the birds welfare is my main 
priority not the photo. Getting caught in a mist net, and how are birds caught 
in a mist net? they are usually herded or flushed towards a net! So then after 
they are trapped in the net they are manhandled, and in a lot of cases jabbed 
for blood samples, before being ringed, and then placed in a bag to be 
eventually released. In the case of waders being released, most of them 
singularly they become ideal prey for predators, so what price for research? 
And can someone please tell me what is the natural defence of a bird against 
that? No 3 Have a look at the banding done on the Orange-bellied Parrot, the 
banding on this species has done nothing, yet pure observation tells us that 
they are losing their habitat in Victoria and South Australia and this has been 
learnt by counting numbers not by putting an extremely endangered bird thru the 
traumatisation of banding. No 4 There are quite a few of us out in the field, 
week in & out who observe what is going on out there, we know that Australia is 
a boom bust cycle for some birds and we are well aware of what population 
growth and unscrupulous developers are doing. But when do we draw the line 
about banding birds for what some believe is for the good of the species, is 
the stress and maiming and sometimes death of a bird in the so-called sake of 
research worth it? Also if anybody out there has a photo of an injured bird 
done by banding or they think that a bird has to many bands on its legs please 
send them to me and I will put them up on my website. I for one think it is 
time that we seriously looked at the habit of Bird Banging for Banding sake and 
need to come up with a different way, Just remember that way back research was 
done by shooting, then skinning birds which we all now look at as barbaric. 
Regards to everyoneGeoff JonesBarraimaging 



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Subject: Birdpedia - Australia - Weekly Digest
From: "Birdpedia - Australia Info" <info AT birdpedia.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 00:05:05 +1030
The following is a digest of Sightings Reported on Birdpedia for the period 
Monday, October 13, 2014 to Sunday, October 19, 2014: 


Area: SA

Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2014

Location: Thorndon Park, Athelstone

Eastern Koel (Eudynamys orientalis) (1) The bird was heard in Thorndon Park, 
Athelstone. 

This may be the same bird that was in this area for 3-4 months last year.

Reported by: Graeme Cellier on Wednesday, October 15, 2014

---------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday, October 16, 2014

Location: Lions bird hide Barrage road Goolwa

Wood Sandpiper (Tringa glareola) (1) Single bird feeding in shallow water right 
hand side of hide. 


Reported by: Winston Syson on Saturday, October 18, 2014

---------------------------------------------

Date: Sunday, October 19, 2014

Location: Magazine Road Greenfields

White-necked Heron (Ardea pacifica) (7) 6 Adults and 1 immature; 2 'pairs' and 
2 with imm. 


Long-toed Stint (Calidris subminuta) (1) 1 bird at far end of wetland foraging 
near group of Sharp tailed Sandpipers. 


Wetland has high level of water , all up observed 60-70 Sharp tailed Sandpipers 
at least 10 Juveniles. 


Reported by: William Brooker on Sunday, October 19, 2014

---------------------------------------------

Need more information about a sighting? Login and contact the poster directly.

Receive sightings via email or SMS immediately they are posted. 

Not a member of Birdpedia? Membership is free and gives you access to 
information for over 230 countries. 


To sign up go to the Birdpedia Web Site (http://www.birdpedia.com/).

To find out more about Birdpedia and what it can do for you, see 'What is 
Birdpedia?' 


---------------------------------------------
                         



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Subject: Strange Bush Stonecurlew Behaviour
From: "Alans Wildlife Tours" <info AT alanswildlifetours.com.au>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 18:12:26 +1000
Do any of you remember my talking last year of the male Bush Stonecurlew at our 
house shifting my boots around. He is doing it again. I suspect they may be 
ready to breed as he only did it last year whicle she was sitting on eggs. 
I’ll have to look if she has laid. 

Regards,
Alan

Alan's Wildlife Tours
2 Mather Road
Yungaburra 4884

Phone 07 4095 3784
Mobile 0408 953 786
http://www.alanswildlifetours.com.au/


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Subject: Re: bird call recognition app.
From: Peter Shute <pshute AT nuw.org.au>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 18:50:13 +1100
> On 19 Oct 2014, at 6:24 am, "Charles"  wrote:
> 
> Specifically in relation to birds, getting the speaker device close to the 
bird calling could also be a challenge in many instances? 


I assume you mean recording device? Yes, even for humans trying to identify 
calls, a recording fairly clear of background noise helps a lot. Sometimes it 
can be difficult to get people to understand just which call you want help with 
if there are louder birds calling over the top of it. If there are insects, or 
wind blowing in the trees, the call can sometimes be difficult to see on a 
spectrogram. 


Of course there are alternatives to getting closer - shotgun and parabolic 
microphones - but not everyone had those handy. 


Peter Shute


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Subject: Silver Gulls nesting at Orange, NSW
From: Carl Clifford <carlsclifford AT gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 18:14:44 +1100
Spent the weekend at Orange, NSW and was kindly shown two sites with nesting 
Silver Gulls. The first site, Wentworth Golf Club, had a pair nesting on a 
pontoon holding up the intake hose for the irrigation system in the dam just by 
the clubhouse. The pair had a single chick just starting to moult from its 
down. The second site was in Suma Park Dam, where there were 4 pairs visibly 
nesting on a small island in the dam (note, access to Suma Park is not open to 
the public). There was a constant stream of SGs flying to and from Suma Park 
and the local tip, so there may be more nesting going on than could be seen 
from my vantage point. 


Carl Clifford




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Subject: A Band of Birders & Others
From: "Geoffrey Allan Jones" <gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 16:18:48 +1100
Gidday Everyone Please remember this is just a point of few from different
sides and there is nothing personal against anyone on this forum.

 

Bird Banding is certainly a touchy subject and my original post was very
emotional, I have calmed down now and slowly thought about the subject. I
have in no way changed my view on this subject and as Damien has put his
views forward point by point, can I challenge what he has said, in some
ways?

 

For there is no Federal or State funding on the detrimental effects of
banding birds for the sake of research and what evidence can I and people
who want to remain anonymous give back about banding, please also remember I
am not against all banding if it is for the sake of critical research to
save a species.

 

No 1 What happens to birds that are injured when either they are caught in a
mist net or when Cannon Netting are they sent off to be looked after by
carers or do they have their necks rung to put them out of their misery.

 

No 2  Birds flush naturally if a person or animal gets too close to them
that is their most natural instinct and in no way does it cause stress to a
bird it is there natural defence.

If a bird is called in, it can leave of its own free will and I for one do
notice that if a bird is agitated I immediately stop the call as the birds
welfare is my main priority not the photo.

 

Getting caught in a mist net, and how are birds caught in a mist net? they
are usually herded or flushed towards a net! So then after they are trapped
in the net they are manhandled, and in a lot of cases jabbed for blood
samples, before being ringed, and then placed in a bag to be eventually
released. In the case of waders being released, most of them singularly they
become ideal prey for predators, so what price for research? And can someone
please tell me what is the natural defence of a bird against that?

 

No 3 Have a look at the banding done on the Orange-bellied Parrot, the
banding on this species has done nothing, yet pure observation tells us that
they are losing their habitat in Victoria and South Australia and this has
been learnt by counting numbers not by putting an extremely endangered bird
thru the traumatisation of banding.

 

No 4 There are quite a few of us out in the field, week in & out who observe
what is going on out there, we know that Australia is a boom bust cycle for
some birds and we are well aware of what population growth and unscrupulous
developers are doing. But when do we draw the line about banding birds for
what some believe is for the good of the species, is the stress and maiming
and sometimes death of a bird in the so-called sake of research worth it? 

 

Also if anybody out there has a photo of an injured bird done by banding or
they think that a bird has to many bands on its legs please send them to me
and I will put them up on my website. I for one think it is time that we
seriously looked at the habit of Bird Banging for Banding sake and need to
come up with a different way, Just remember that way back research was done
by shooting, then skinning birds which we all now look at as barbaric.

 

Regards to everyone

Geoff Jones

Barraimaging

 



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Subject: Eastern Whipbird
From: Chris Shaw <seashore AT internode.on.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 14:25:36 +1030
Ciao,

A couple of photos of an Eastern Whipbird one displaying it’s very fan-like 
tail - fantail? Anyway I added a bit of nostalgia about the imperial 
measurement system that is gobble-de-gook to young players who look at you 
blankly should you mention such archaic units... 


Chris Shaw
seashore AT internode.on.net
Mobile 0409 675912

My blog - "Top Birds and Everyfing" can be found on the following link 

http://topbirdsandeveryfing.typepad.com/top-birds-everyfing/

“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.” 
Hanlon 





















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Subject: Cassowaries
From: "Phil & Sue Gregory" <oreornis AT gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 12:23:41 +1000
Interesting times here in Kuranda. Our resident male Cassowary appeared with 2 
chicks on Aug 9, but sadly one of them died in mid-Sept, it always been the 
weaker of the two and became sick, dying overnight. It had an injury on its 
side and weighed just c. 1200g, having not eaten for several days prior. The 
surviving chick is doing well, nicely bossy and busy chasing brushturkeys and 
Musky Rat-Kangaroos, now some 10 weeks old, and still very stripy. 


We lost our big female Harriet back in May when she was struck by a speeding 
car on Black Mountain Road, the first adult bird to be killed here as far as we 
know and not surprising given how speed limits get ignored or are seen as 
targets, it is a notional 40km here through this core Cassowary area. An 
autopsy by our Kuranda Vet showed she had a gut infection and may have been 
dying anyway, perhaps she was unwell and was on the road because of this, as 
she was always really scared of traffic and would bolt at the sound of trucks 
or cars. She first appeared back in Sept 2013 and had a huge territorial fight 
with our long-standing resident female Missy, who has been here since 2000 when 
she herself replaced another female. Harriet chased her down beside the house, 
where Missy fell over and smashed a large flowerpot before being driven off, 
dramatic stuff that we definitely did not want to be in the way of! 


Essentially Harriet then took over, with poor Missy sneaking in very rarely 
when she was away. Harriet was seen mating with our male, and we are pretty 
sure the chicks this year are from her as she was the dominant here then. Last 
year's chicks we are sure came from Missy, but sadly they only survived very 
briefly in November, disappearing when a pack of feral dingo x domestic dogs 
passed through. 


As soon as Harriet was gone, Missy moved back in, literally the next day, and 
has been visiting several times a week ever since, including whilst the male 
was away incubating in June-July. The curious thing is that now she is looking 
as if she is ready to mate, her neck colour is very intense violet-blue which 
is a sign of breeding condition, and has been coming in when the male and his 
surviving chick appear. On Oct 15 we had the bizarre sight of the male sat down 
and the female attempting to climb on him to mate, something we had never seen 
before in our 16 years of observations of these birds. 


Today we have a Korean film crew here, and the female came in whilst the male 
and his chick were here, and there was a brief mating episode when she sat down 
and basically invited the male to copulate. The timing is way off, as usually 
they mate in May-June, and the last thing we now want is for the male to 
perhaps abandon his chick and go incubate over the cyclone season, we shall 
have to wait and see what happens. We suspect that Missy did not mate earlier 
this year and is making up for lost time! 


Phil Gregory

Website 1: Http://www.sicklebillsafaris.com
Website 2: Http://www.cassowary-house.com.au



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Subject: Panama Trip 2015
From: "Greg Roberts" <ninderry AT westnet.com.au>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:03:21 +1000

	Hi all 

	I am organising a three-week trip to Panama during the Australian
winter next year and am asking for expressions of interest. 

	I've not yet set firm dates but the trip will cover the major birding
regions of the country including the western highlands, central Panama
and the spectacular Darien wilderness in southern Panama. We have a
good chance of seeing difficult and much sought after specialties such
as Black-crowned Antpitta, Rufous-vented Ground-Cuckoo, Sapayoa and
Wrenthrush. 

	I am presently in the process of nutting out an itinerary and costs
with Panamanian birding operatives. With similar trips in the past, I
have been able to keep costs well below those of the big guiding
companies such as Wings and Birdquest.  

	Please let me know if you may be interested. We are looking at a
group of 7-9 people. 

	Greg Roberts


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Subject: Eaglehawk Neck Pelagics ­ Saturday, 30/08, and Sunday, 31/08/2014
From: Nikolas Haass <n.haass1 AT uq.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 12:39:17 +0000
Hi all,

Sorry for this major delay. Here is our Eaglehawk Neck Pelagic report 
(including links to Raja's photos) from late August 2014: 


http://www.sossa-international.org/forum/showthread.php?220-Eaglehawk-Neck-Pelagics-%96-Saturday-30-08-and-Sunday-31-08-2014 


Cheers,

Nikolas

Nikolas Haass | MD, PhD, FACD
Associate Professor; Head, Experimental Melanoma Therapy Group
President of the Australasian Society of Dermatology Research (ASDR)

The University of Queensland Diamantina Institute
Level 6 | Translational Research Institute | 37 Kent Street | Woolloongabba QLD 
4102 


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F: +61 (0)7 3443 6966
E: n.haass1 AT uq.edu.au | W: 
www.di.uq.edu.au; 
http://www.di.uq.edu.au/associate-professor-nikolas-haass; 
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Subject: White-throated Needletail and Albert''s Lyrebird
From: "Richard Johnstone" <rjohnsto AT tpg.com.au>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 23:12:40 +1100
On the far north coast of NSW last week for a work field trip (13 Oct), I
saw a pair of Albert's Lyrebirds at Bar Mountain in Border Ranges NP. They
were about 50 metres along Nothofagus walk, and seemed really intent on
scratching under a fallen tree, ignoring people only 3 metres away. I got a
couple of pictures, something I never imagined with this shy species.

The following day  (14 Oct) we were at Lennox Head, after a storm passed
through there was a flock of White-throated Needletails at 2.30 pm, between
30 and 40 birds, flying low above the headland. Conditions were sunny and
humid, and the birds disappeared from view in only a couple of minutes.

Richard



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Subject: Re: bird call recognition app.
From: Charles <ccgfh AT yahoo.com.au>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 23:49:56 +0800
Hi Michael,

Worth noting is that SHAZAM cannot decipher / translate live music or a person 
singing the song into their phone / the application. Even if they have a good 
voice very similar to the original artist. However I believe there is an app 
that claims to be able to do this. 


If the song is not in their (SHAZAM) database it can't be picked up.....

I've tried singing into the phone a couple of times and it doesn't work.

Specifically in relation to birds, getting the speaker device close to the bird 
calling could also be a challenge in many instances? 


I haven't read this email thread so apologies if I'm repeating the thoughts of 
others. 


Cheers,
Charles Hunter

> On 17 Oct 2014, at 10:42 am, "Michael Hunter"  
wrote: 

> 
> Thankyou for all the replies to my enquiry about bird call recognition apps., 
all of which answered in the negative, for the time being at least 

> 
> The most erudite reply (Paul Dodd) did give some hope, the University of 
Wisconsin has a project called “WeBird” , incorporating sophisticated 
averaging, but requiring enormous computing power, multiple servers, and a huge 
memory bank of calls. Paul didn’t say whether this included Australian 
species. 

> 
> “Shazam” music recognition is remarkable, but is poor on the classics as 
Martin Butterfield notes. Must try it on “The Nightingale”. He also thinks 
that maybe an 80% recognition rate for birds should be relatively easy to 
achieve on a dedicated app. 

> 
> Maybe Fred van Gessel could get the “wetware between his ears” (thanks 
Carl), and his tapes, into an Oz memory bank . Surely the common calls would be 
easy enough to recognise. I originally asked the app question after racking my 
own wetware for days after hearing a Jacky Winter call at Gundy different to 
the repertoire of my local Mulgoa family. Eventually saw the caller. Checked on 
the PKBirds app, where it is listed, very strangely, under “Winter Jacky”. 
(What happened to “ Flycatcher Brown”, not catchy enough? ) The calls 
recorded there were similar but different to those at Gundy confirming that 
recording all the possibilities for all the birds would be a giant job. 
Particularly as about half our songbirds indulge in mimicry from time to time. 

> 
>               Cheers
> 
>                    Michael
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
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Subject: Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
From: Michael Tarburton <tarburton.m AT optusnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 21:03:30 +1100
G'day Graeme & other readers


 From gleaning all the swift & swiftlet records I can from as many  
sources I can, I am finding that e-bird often has 2-5 records of the  
same group trip, and I am finding that some of these are being  
filtered out by the Aussie atlas but but not all.  biocache can have  
even more duplicate entries as it takes from numerous sources, and I  
spend much time amalgamating duplicate entries.  It gets very  
frustrating.

Ideally it would be best to have just one program to send Aussie data  
to.  But little in this world is ideal.

Please do not give up placing your observations in one atlas or  
another, and PLEASE GIVE ONLY ONE DATE & PROVIDE THE NUMBER OF EACH  
SPECIES YOU SAW.

E-bird has data from the birdlife atlas and they have really messed  
up some of the dates - where a period is given rather a single day.

Cheers & Happy birding

Mike


>
> Just as an aside: I notice on eBird that when browsing recent  
> entries there are often multiple entries for what appears to be the  
> same survey or outing. e.g. say a group of 5 observers visit a site  
> and record 23 species - there are at times five different entries  
> all for the same 23 species.
>
> I do hope the Atlas moderator ditches 4 of the 5???  or we would  
> surely be biasing abundance ratios etc. I wonder if that is the case?
>




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Subject: Re Banding
From: "Philip Veerman" <pveerman AT pcug.org.au>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 13:51:23 +1100
Is there anyone not already bored by this (or wasn't last time or the time
before that)? The anti banding lobby raising the same old rhetorical
questions with little or nothing to back it up. Surely the efforts of these
people whether based on any conservation concern or concern over animal
welfare issues, could be better addressed to the real problems impacting on
waders; such as loss of coastal habitat in Asia (and no doubt in Australia
too), and hunting of them for food by people in many parts of the world
(probably mainly Asia).

This is one of the worst divergent of original email discussions. A
completely innocent item about Buddigower Nature Reserve. Has nothing to do
with waders anyway...... If everything goes off track like this, probably
people will stop contributing........

Whilst I am whinging, why don't people delete the long list of prior
messages and multiple [Birding-Aus] footers before forwarding again.....

Philip



-----Original Message-----From: Birding-Aus
[mailto:birding-aus-bounces AT birding-aus.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Ambrose
Sent: Saturday, 18 October 2014 9:53 AM
To: 'Ian May'; 'Peter Shute'	Cc: 'geoff jones barra images';
birding-aus AT birding-aus.org	Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip
to Buddigower Nature Reserve take2


Ian,

You have repeatedly expressed your concerns about bird banding on
Birding-aus for several years now.  In all those discussions you refer to
data that supposedly indicate bird numbers are declining due to banding, leg
flagging, cannon-netting etc. Yet when others on Birding-aus have repeatedly
requested that you identify the data or photographs that you are referring
to, or make them available, it is met with silence.  How can we have a
sensible discussion on this topic if you fail to produce
scientifically-robust evidence in support of your claims? Even if the data
that you are using aren't scientifically-robust, it is still worth making
them available to Birding-aus so that a discussion of the merits of the data
and validity of the conclusions can occur.

Stephen Ambrose
Ryde NSW 




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Subject: On the subject of banding and satellite tracking
From: Laurie Knight <l.knight AT optusnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 13:31:04 +1000
Banded Stilts have been shown to be speedy and accurate fliers between 
ephemeral water bodies 


See http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2014/10/15/4106711.htm

Regards, Laurie.


On 17 Oct 2014, at 5:08 pm, Damien Farine  wrote:

> Ian,
> As I mentioned in my previous post, these kinds of debates/questions are 
important to raise now and again to encourage banders to reflect on what goals 
their effects are achieving. 

> However, these sorts of emails are not particularly useful as they provide 
only opinions and emotions, rather than making a contribution based on 
evidence. Take your comparison of the effects of photography to bird banding. 
Whilst the effect of a photographer flushing a bird may appear to be minor to 
the perpetrator, the repeated effects of these sort of disturbances week after 
week by hundreds or thousands of photographers may have profound impacts 
individual bird's perception of risk, resulting in changes in its behaviour 
that can affect how much it forages and subsequently its reproductive success. 
So far I have been 'hand-waving', but there are published studies, for example 
on European oystercatchers, that show direct evidence for this. Further, many 
studies have demonstrated very clearly that birds with greater perceived risk 
suffer negative physiological effects that can reduce survival via a range of 
mechanisms. No one is claiming that banding doesn't have some impact on the 
particular individuals that are captured and banded, but frequent disturbances 
(including walking dogs, etc.) can have impact on tens or hundreds of 
individual birds each time a disturbance occurs, and, as a result, change 
behavioural patterns at a much larger scale. This effect should not be 
under-estimated, or brushed away with a feather duster. 

> The arguments you put forward are also entirely restricted to waders, whereas 
the original posting was about a trip to mallee habitat. There are many good 
studies that can demonstrate there is very little long-term impact of banding 
on individual birds. In one of my research sites, we have tracked the same 
birds year-in year-out building nests, feeding young, and so on with no adverse 
effects. For example, of the 63 birds we colour-banded in the initial cohort in 
2010, we resighted every single bird multiple times in subsequent years (they 
sometimes disappear for months or years, only to mysteriously return - with all 
appendages intact). Sure the capturing and banding events were stressful, but 
our priority is to minimise the impact of this, and I think our data suggests 
we do a very good job of it. 

> I would be very surprised if banding shorebirds would make any contributions 
to the decline of waders. If you are concerned you could request the data from 
those involved in the studies and do an analysis on it to provide evidence 
either for or against this. Even better, why not fund (or raise money for) a 
scholarship for a graduate student to investigate this question in detail by 
performing experiments to get at the causal factors? 

> I was asked by Steve Read for more information by listing published studies. 
For the purpose of promoting a constructive debate, I have pasted my reply 
below. 

> One final point is that arguments based around the need for science to have 
immediate deliverable impacts (i.e. banding should help save birds) are 
extremely detrimental to the future of science (sadly this is the view of our 
current government). Almost all the scientific knowledge we have is built up 
from discovery science. This is research done to address what can appear as 
narrow goals, but is usually framed in a broader set of hypotheses. Thus, what 
we should not be asking if 'banding will help save birds', but rather if 
'banding will continue to contribute to the knowledge we need to help in the 
conservation of birds'. I think the answer to the latter is a resounding YES. 

> I might close off by indulging in mentioning that while writing this reply, a 
Great horned owl has been calling outside my window. Last week it was a Western 
screech-owl calling from the same tree. 

> 




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Subject: Re: Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take 2
From: "Stephen Ambrose" <stephen AT ambecol.com.au>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 09:53:15 +1100
Ian,

You have repeatedly expressed your concerns about bird banding on
Birding-aus for several years now.  In all those discussions you refer to
data that supposedly indicate bird numbers are declining due to banding, leg
flagging, cannon-netting etc. Yet when others on Birding-aus have repeatedly
requested that you identify the data or photographs that you are referring
to, or make them available, it is met with silence.  How can we have a
sensible discussion on this topic if you fail to produce
scientifically-robust evidence in support of your claims? Even if the data
that you are using aren't scientifically-robust, it is still worth making
them available to Birding-aus so that a discussion of the merits of the data
and validity of the conclusions can occur.

Stephen Ambrose
Ryde NSW 



-----Original Message-----
From: Birding-Aus [mailto:birding-aus-bounces AT birding-aus.org] On Behalf Of
Ian May
Sent: Saturday, 18 October 2014 8:31 AM
To: Peter Shute
Cc: geoff jones barra images; birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take
2

Thanks Peter.  The line should read "5 attachments including two bands"

Peter Shute wrote:

>Is there any chance we could see the photo of the wader with five flags,
Ian? What species was it?
>
>Can anyone tell me what the allowable limit is?
>
>Peter Shute
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>  
>
>>On 17 Oct 2014, at 5:03 pm, "Ian May"  wrote:
>>
>>We are in full agreement about habitat protection however, no matter 
>>which way I look at it, I just cannot see how banding helps to save 
>>any bird.
>>
>>As a friend pointed out to me recently, comparing the impacts of call 
>>playback and bird photography with the adverse impacts of bird 
>>banding, canon netting, mist netting and leg flagging etc. is like 
>>comparing being hit with a feather duster compared to a speeding Mack
truck.
>>
>>Recently I observed a photograph of a small wader with 5 flags and two 
>>bands.  I have seen Curlew Sandpiper with 4 flags. There is a 
>>photograph circulating of flagged and banded Spoon-billed Sandpiper 
>>chicks.  It might be nice to know everywhere they go but surely such an
endangered
>>small migratory bird should be protected to migrate unimpeded..   How
>>can banding a Spoon-billed Sandpiper chick help save them.  More 
>>likely, these birds are doomed because of their handling and banding.
>>
>>Many small waders populations are in decline.  I remember when 
>>repeatable counts indicated most small wader populations were stable.
>>Red Knots and Curlew Sandpiper were widespread and common. While 
>>obviously there are habitat protection issues too, dropping numbers of 
>>these species closely correlate with the period when canon netting and
>>leg flagging commenced and the declining numbers correlate too.   Just a
>>coincidence?   I don't think so.
>>
>>A high percentage (not a small percentage as we have been asked to
>>remember) of the Sanderling population in Southern Australia have been 
>>leg flagged and their declining numbers also correlate closely with 
>>numbers flagged.  12 months after flagging, retrap rates are minuscule 
>>and the lost birds cannot be logically explained.
>>
>>Ian May
>>St Helens Tasmania
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>g and Val Clancy wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>I have been banding birds since 1971 and as suggested I do think 
>>>carefully about the pros and cons of this activity.  I get sad when I 
>>>see people suggesting that we know all that we need to know from 
>>>banding when that is patently not the case.  We have only scratched 
>>>the surface when it comes to our understanding of Australia's birds 
>>>and their movements.  I am glad that people are compassionate enough 
>>>to be concerned about the birds' welfare as this is paramount in my 
>>>thoughts as well but please direct your concerns where they really 
>>>need to be directed - at the people clearing natural ecosystems, at 
>>>people shooting ducks for sport, at people who have cats and dogs 
>>>that are allowed to roam and kill our wildlife etc..  I know that 
>>>some people have witnessed accidents during banding activities and 
>>>this has coloured their view for life but the rare case where a bird 
>>>suffers from banding should not mean that it is not a legitimate and 
>>>humane activity.  I hold an animal care and ethics approval for my 
>>>banding and I am held accountable for any losses.  People who do not 
>>>like birds being banded are entitled to their opinion but, like 
>>>Martin, please find out all you can about the positives before 
>>>condemning the people who are giving large amounts of their own time 
>>>and money to research the birds so that they can be saved.  The 
>>>winter movement of birds such as Grey Fantails, Golden Whistlers, 
>>>Striated Pardalotes and other species from Tasmania and southern 
>>>Australia to the north coast of New South Wales and southern 
>>>Queensland is only now being recognised.  We need more banders to 
>>>track these movements not less banding.  Remember banders will only 
>>>ever band a small percentage of the population of any species but 
>>>that percentage can provide essential data that cannot be gathered by 
>>>observation alone.  It was banding that proved that the formerly 
>>>recognised two species of Silvereye in south-eastern Australia were 
>>>in fact the one species but one type was of Tasmanian origin and the 
>>>other of local origin.  My banding research on the Eastern Osprey, 
>>>Black-necked Stork, Beach Stone-curlew and Australian Pied 
>>>Oystercatcher and others has provided essential data required for the 
>>>management of these threatened species.  Banding is not the problem 
>>>it is an important part of the solution.
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>Greg
>>>
>>>Dr Greg. P. Clancy
>>>Ecologist and Birding-wildlife Guide
>>>| PO Box 63 Coutts Crossing NSW 2460
>>>| 02 6649 3153  | 0429 601 960
>>>http://www.gregclancyecologistguide.com
>>>http://gregswildliferamblings.blogspot.com.au/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message----- From: martin cachard
>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:06 PM
>>>To: Dr Mark Carey ; geoff jones barra images ; 
>>>birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
>>>Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature 
>>>Reserve take 2
>>>
>>>this is a very interesting thread & I've learnt so much already just 
>>>from a couple of posts, so thank you so far for these  insights into 
>>>banding.
>>>
>>>one species I believe which could reveal some interesting findings 
>>>could be the local breeding canescens race of Black-winged Monarch,  
>>>a species I've been doing much fieldwork on in recent years...
>>>one perplexing question for me is where do they winter when not in 
>>>Australia??
>>>of course some banding would also need to be done in PNG or wherever 
>>>else we believe this race may winter...
>>>I truly wonder???
>>>
>>>any ideas on doing such a project anyone??
>>>
>>>cheers,
>>>martin cachard,
>>>cairns
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>From: markcarey82 AT hotmail.com
>>>>To: gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au; birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
>>>>Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 12:28:39 +1100
>>>>Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature 
>>>>Reserve take 2
>>>>
>>>>Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>A good article that explains quite nicely why we should continue 
>>>>banding and why banding schemes are important!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>http://www.britishbirds.co.uk/article/bird-ringing-still-necessary/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Cheers, Mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>From: gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au
>>>>>To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
>>>>>Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 08:50:22 +1100
>>>>>Subject: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>take > 2
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>In response to Harveys reply I need to apologise to Harvey about
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>leaving > the
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>nets unattended as he has now said that the nets were not opened
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>before > they
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>went off and set up camp and I have already sent a personal email
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>to > Harvey
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>on that subject. But if you had read Harvey's Blog here is an
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>excerpt > from
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>it;  " When we arrived at Buddigower, Karen and I set to to get a
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>few > nets
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>up before dusk, in the same area we had banded those four years >
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>previously,
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>then went about the business of setting up camp"  This quote is how
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>I > came
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>to that conclusion, however it still does not change my point of
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>view > about
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>banding birds in a local areas, again I ask for what purpose is it
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>done?
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>My personal thoughts are that a bird count done regularly by a
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>local > bird
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>club will give you a considerable amount of information without
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>putting > the
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>birds thru the trauma of being banded. Last Saturday afternoon I >
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>personally
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>observed Sharp-tailed Sandpipers that had recently arrived and were 
>>>>>vigorously feeding after their annual migration to our shores. They
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>were
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>feeding in one of the ponds near the Burrow Pits at the Western >
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>Treatment
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Plant and as they struggled to raise their legs in the soft mud I >
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>couldn't
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>help but think that if they had large leg flags on their feet and
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>that > if
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>birds of prey were around, which is quite common at this site, it
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>could > be
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>the difference between life and death for those birds.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Most people now know that the population of waders are dramatically 
>>>>>dropping as many local groups throughout Australian do numerous 
>>>>>wader counts
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>and > that
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>information is passed on to the appropriate people and/or
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>organizations.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>So why should we continue to Net, Traumatize and in some cases kill
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>or > maim
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>birds, all for so-called research?  I for one think not!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Kindest Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>Geoff Jones
>>>>>
>>>>>Barra Imaging
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---
>>>>>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>Antivirus > protection is active.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.avast.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
Birding-Aus mailing list >>>>>
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >>>>>
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> >>>>http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>
>>>>
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Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >>>>
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>>>
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>>
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To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>
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Subject: Re: Bronzewing Diary 2014
From: "Ross Macfarlane" <rmacfarl AT tpg.com.au>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 09:28:21 +1100
Philip,

Thanks for that. Having Googled I agree, it looks like a pigeon chick for 
sure, and yes, most probably crested or (dare I say it) a bronzewing. It 
would also explain why we couldn't see a nest because pigeons don't waste 
much effort on their home, as a rule...

Ross Macfarlane

-----Original Message----- 
From: Philip Veerman
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:19 AM
To: 'Ross Macfarlane' ; birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
Subject: RE: [Birding-Aus] Bronzewing Diary 2014

Ross,

Surely not a Malleefowl. I believe it looks typical of a nestling pigeon of
some kind, especially with the ridiculous looking bulbous beak, so I suggest
take the likely pick from the species likely to be there (Crested Pigeon
likely?). A close up of the feet will usually help in a case like this.

Philip


-----Original Message-----
From: Birding-Aus [mailto:birding-aus-bounces AT birding-aus.org] On Behalf Of
Ross Macfarlane
Sent: Friday, 17 October 2014 8:42 PM
To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
Subject: [Birding-Aus] Bronzewing Diary 2014


Well I finally was able to return to Bronzewing Flora & Fauna Reserve, in
the wake of the devastating fires in January this year. In case you didn't
know, my Dad & I have been monitoring malleefowl mounds there since 2002 -
part of Joe Benshemesh's long-term malleefowl monitoring project which is
supported by the volunteer efforts of the Victorian Malleefowl Recovery
Group.

The Bronzewing monitoring site, which measures about 3km by 1.5km at the
northern end of the 16,000ha reserve, has 108 nest sites, of which typically
15-20 have been active in any 1 year (the record was 32 in 2012.) But with
the entire site and over 80% of the whole reserve being burnt in January, we
had little expectation of finding mounds being used to incubate eggs for the
next few years at least.

So little faith! We went there after our annual training weekend at
Wyperfeld last weekend, and in 3 gruelling days (too little time for a site
this size, even with most of the mallee bush gone,) we found 2 active
mounds, and on Tuesday I photographed the male at the mound, in a tiny
unburnt remnant. The other active mound was not even that lucky - the trees
had been scorched and the leaves in the canopy were all dead.

But at that mound: a conundrum. Can anyone help me identify this chick which
I found face down next to the base of the mound? I should say it actually
gaped once when I first found it.

http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/rmacfarl/media/Uploads/Bronzewing%202014/1
00_0356_zps8972d1bd.jpg.html
http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/rmacfarl/media/Uploads/Bronzewing%202014/1
00_0355_zps73b511fe.jpg.html

There was no sign of a nest above the mound anywhere. We debated whether it
was a partially developed malleefowl embryo that had been kicked out when
the egg broke, but a) no way, b) it doesn't look anything like a megapode
chick, and c) no, bleeping, way. My working hypothesis is it was carried off
by something like a currawong or butcher-bird but was dropped when the bird
was surprised by our approach.

Some more of my very modest pics can be found here:
http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/rmacfarl/library/Uploads/Bronzewing%202014
?sort=3&page=1, and include a nest of a little button-quail that my Dad
flushed as we walked through the bush.

We were a bit slack about keeping a list (too busy trekking around mounds to
chase birds) but these are what I can recall off the top of my head:

emu (didn't see one but lots of tracks, including chicks) malleefowl (fist
pump) little button-quail mallee ringneck parrot regent parrot (in a few
unburnt mallee trees at the northern edge of the reserve) galah common
bronzewing pigeon crested pigeon rainbow bee-eater splendid fairy-wren
chestnut quail-thrush (lovely views as it gave its alarm and contact calls)
wood-swallows (calling overhead - probably white-browed) willy wagtail jacky
winter yellow-throated miner rufous whistler grey shrike-thrush grey
(black-winged) currawong grey butcher-bird Australian (black-backed) magpie
Australian raven

But few signs of life on the wind-swept sand hills in the centre of the
reserve.

Nevertheless, Earth abides, including Bronzewing. I look forward to watching
it recover over the next couple of decades...

Cheers,

Ross Macfarlane

Victorian Malleefowl Recovery Group, Inc.

)  0417 370 371

+  rmacfarl AT tpg.com.au

:  www.malleefowlvictoria.org.au


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Subject: AUSSIE BACKYARD BIRD COUNT
From: Laurie Knight <l.knight AT optusnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 08:00:00 +1000
G’day folks. 

For those of you who aren’t linked to BirdLife Australia, the Aussie Backyard 
Bird Count begins on Monday. Here’s an excerpt from an email I received 
yesterday … 


Regards, Laurie

"Celebrate this year’s National Bird Week by taking part in the first ever 
Aussie Backyard Bird Count. It’s BirdLife Australia’s biggest citizen science 
project. From 20-26 October, thousands of people from across the country will 
be heading out into their backyards, local parks or favourite open spaces to 
take part. All you need join in is 20 minutes, your favourite bird watching 
spot, and some keen eyesight (or binoculars!) Record the birds you know and 
look up those you don’t on our specially designed Aussie Bird Count app, or on 
the website. You’ll instantly see live information on how many people are 
taking part near you and the number of birds and species counted both within 
your local area and across Australia. 


Not only will you get to know your feathered neighbours, but you’ll be 
contributing to a vital pool of information from across the nation that will 
help us see how Australian birds are faring. 


So get your friends and family together, head into the great outdoors and start 
counting. 


For more information or to download the App head to www.aussiebirdcount.org.au"


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Subject: Re: Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take 2
From: Ian May <birding AT ozemail.com.au>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 08:31:24 +1100
Thanks Peter.  The line should read "5 attachments including two bands"

Peter Shute wrote:

>Is there any chance we could see the photo of the wader with five flags, Ian? 
What species was it? 

>
>Can anyone tell me what the allowable limit is?
>
>Peter Shute
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>  
>
>>On 17 Oct 2014, at 5:03 pm, "Ian May"  wrote:
>>
>>We are in full agreement about habitat protection however, no matter
>>which way I look at it, I just cannot see how banding helps to save any
>>bird.
>>
>>As a friend pointed out to me recently, comparing the impacts of call
>>playback and bird photography with the adverse impacts of bird banding,
>>canon netting, mist netting and leg flagging etc. is like comparing
>>being hit with a feather duster compared to a speeding Mack truck.
>>
>>Recently I observed a photograph of a small wader with 5 flags and two
>>bands.  I have seen Curlew Sandpiper with 4 flags. There is a photograph
>>circulating of flagged and banded Spoon-billed Sandpiper chicks.  It
>>might be nice to know everywhere they go but surely such an endangered
>>small migratory bird should be protected to migrate unimpeded..   How
>>can banding a Spoon-billed Sandpiper chick help save them.  More likely,
>>these birds are doomed because of their handling and banding.
>>
>>Many small waders populations are in decline.  I remember when
>>repeatable counts indicated most small wader populations were stable.
>>Red Knots and Curlew Sandpiper were widespread and common. While
>>obviously there are habitat protection issues too, dropping numbers of
>>these species closely correlate with the period when canon netting and
>>leg flagging commenced and the declining numbers correlate too.   Just a
>>coincidence?   I don't think so.
>>
>>A high percentage (not a small percentage as we have been asked to
>>remember) of the Sanderling population in Southern Australia have been
>>leg flagged and their declining numbers also correlate closely with
>>numbers flagged.  12 months after flagging, retrap rates are minuscule
>>and the lost birds cannot be logically explained.
>>
>>Ian May
>>St Helens Tasmania
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>g and Val Clancy wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>I have been banding birds since 1971 and as suggested I do think
>>>carefully about the pros and cons of this activity.  I get sad when I
>>>see people suggesting that we know all that we need to know from
>>>banding when that is patently not the case.  We have only scratched
>>>the surface when it comes to our understanding of Australia's birds
>>>and their movements.  I am glad that people are compassionate enough
>>>to be concerned about the birds' welfare as this is paramount in my
>>>thoughts as well but please direct your concerns where they really
>>>need to be directed - at the people clearing natural ecosystems, at
>>>people shooting ducks for sport, at people who have cats and dogs that
>>>are allowed to roam and kill our wildlife etc..  I know that some
>>>people have witnessed accidents during banding activities and this has
>>>coloured their view for life but the rare case where a bird suffers
>>>from banding should not mean that it is not a legitimate and humane
>>>activity.  I hold an animal care and ethics approval for my banding
>>>and I am held accountable for any losses.  People who do not like
>>>birds being banded are entitled to their opinion but, like Martin,
>>>please find out all you can about the positives before condemning the
>>>people who are giving large amounts of their own time and money to
>>>research the birds so that they can be saved.  The winter movement of
>>>birds such as Grey Fantails, Golden Whistlers, Striated Pardalotes and
>>>other species from Tasmania and southern Australia to the north coast
>>>of New South Wales and southern Queensland is only now being
>>>recognised.  We need more banders to track these movements not less
>>>banding.  Remember banders will only ever band a small percentage of
>>>the population of any species but that percentage can provide
>>>essential data that cannot be gathered by observation alone.  It was
>>>banding that proved that the formerly recognised two species of
>>>Silvereye in south-eastern Australia were in fact the one species but
>>>one type was of Tasmanian origin and the other of local origin.  My
>>>banding research on the Eastern Osprey, Black-necked Stork, Beach
>>>Stone-curlew and Australian Pied Oystercatcher and others has provided
>>>essential data required for the management of these threatened
>>>species.  Banding is not the problem it is an important part of the
>>>solution.
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>Greg
>>>
>>>Dr Greg. P. Clancy
>>>Ecologist and Birding-wildlife Guide
>>>| PO Box 63 Coutts Crossing NSW 2460
>>>| 02 6649 3153  | 0429 601 960
>>>http://www.gregclancyecologistguide.com
>>>http://gregswildliferamblings.blogspot.com.au/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message----- From: martin cachard
>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:06 PM
>>>To: Dr Mark Carey ; geoff jones barra images ;
>>>birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
>>>Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature
>>>Reserve take 2
>>>
>>>this is a very interesting thread & I've learnt so much already just
>>>from a couple of posts, so thank you so far for these  insights into
>>>banding.
>>>
>>>one species I believe which could reveal some interesting findings
>>>could be the local breeding canescens race of Black-winged Monarch,  a
>>>species I've been doing much fieldwork on in recent years...
>>>one perplexing question for me is where do they winter when not in
>>>Australia??
>>>of course some banding would also need to be done in PNG or wherever
>>>else we believe this race may winter...
>>>I truly wonder???
>>>
>>>any ideas on doing such a project anyone??
>>>
>>>cheers,
>>>martin cachard,
>>>cairns
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>From: markcarey82 AT hotmail.com
>>>>To: gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au; birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
>>>>Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 12:28:39 +1100
>>>>Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature
>>>>Reserve take 2
>>>>
>>>>Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>A good article that explains quite nicely why we should
>>>>continue banding and why banding schemes are important!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>http://www.britishbirds.co.uk/article/bird-ringing-still-necessary/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Cheers, Mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>From: gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au
>>>>>To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
>>>>>Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 08:50:22 +1100
>>>>>Subject: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>take > 2
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>In response to Harveys reply I need to apologise to Harvey about
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>leaving > the
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>nets unattended as he has now said that the nets were not opened
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>before > they
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>went off and set up camp and I have already sent a personal email
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>to > Harvey
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>on that subject. But if you had read Harvey's Blog here is an
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>excerpt > from
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>it;  " When we arrived at Buddigower, Karen and I set to to get a
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>few > nets
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>up before dusk, in the same area we had banded those four years >
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>previously,
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>then went about the business of setting up camp"  This quote is how
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>I > came
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>to that conclusion, however it still does not change my point of
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>view > about
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>banding birds in a local areas, again I ask for what purpose is it
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>done?
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>My personal thoughts are that a bird count done regularly by a
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>local > bird
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>club will give you a considerable amount of information without
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>putting > the
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>birds thru the trauma of being banded. Last Saturday afternoon I >
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>personally
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>observed Sharp-tailed Sandpipers that had recently arrived and were
>>>>>vigorously feeding after their annual migration to our shores. They
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>were
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>feeding in one of the ponds near the Burrow Pits at the Western >
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>Treatment
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Plant and as they struggled to raise their legs in the soft mud I >
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>couldn't
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>help but think that if they had large leg flags on their feet and
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>that > if
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>birds of prey were around, which is quite common at this site, it
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>could > be
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>the difference between life and death for those birds.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Most people now know that the population of waders are dramatically
>>>>>dropping
>>>>>as many local groups throughout Australian do numerous wader counts
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>and > that
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>information is passed on to the appropriate people and/or
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>organizations.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>So why should we continue to Net, Traumatize and in some cases kill
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>or > maim
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>birds, all for so-called research?  I for one think not!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Kindest Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>Geoff Jones
>>>>>
>>>>>Barra Imaging
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---
>>>>>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>Antivirus > protection is active.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.avast.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
Birding-Aus mailing list >>>>>
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >>>>>
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> >>>>http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>
>>>>
Birding-Aus mailing list >>>>
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To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>>>
http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>
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To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>>
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>>>
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To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>>
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>>
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To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>
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Subject: Re: Bronzewing Diary 2014
From: "Philip Veerman" <pveerman AT pcug.org.au>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2014 00:19:37 +1100
Ross,

Surely not a Malleefowl. I believe it looks typical of a nestling pigeon of
some kind, especially with the ridiculous looking bulbous beak, so I suggest
take the likely pick from the species likely to be there (Crested Pigeon
likely?). A close up of the feet will usually help in a case like this. 

Philip


-----Original Message-----
From: Birding-Aus [mailto:birding-aus-bounces AT birding-aus.org] On Behalf Of
Ross Macfarlane
Sent: Friday, 17 October 2014 8:42 PM
To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
Subject: [Birding-Aus] Bronzewing Diary 2014


Well I finally was able to return to Bronzewing Flora & Fauna Reserve, in
the wake of the devastating fires in January this year. In case you didn't
know, my Dad & I have been monitoring malleefowl mounds there since 2002 -
part of Joe Benshemesh's long-term malleefowl monitoring project which is
supported by the volunteer efforts of the Victorian Malleefowl Recovery
Group.

The Bronzewing monitoring site, which measures about 3km by 1.5km at the
northern end of the 16,000ha reserve, has 108 nest sites, of which typically
15-20 have been active in any 1 year (the record was 32 in 2012.) But with
the entire site and over 80% of the whole reserve being burnt in January, we
had little expectation of finding mounds being used to incubate eggs for the
next few years at least.

So little faith! We went there after our annual training weekend at
Wyperfeld last weekend, and in 3 gruelling days (too little time for a site
this size, even with most of the mallee bush gone,) we found 2 active
mounds, and on Tuesday I photographed the male at the mound, in a tiny
unburnt remnant. The other active mound was not even that lucky - the trees
had been scorched and the leaves in the canopy were all dead.

But at that mound: a conundrum. Can anyone help me identify this chick which
I found face down next to the base of the mound? I should say it actually
gaped once when I first found it.

http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/rmacfarl/media/Uploads/Bronzewing%202014/1
00_0356_zps8972d1bd.jpg.html
http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/rmacfarl/media/Uploads/Bronzewing%202014/1
00_0355_zps73b511fe.jpg.html

There was no sign of a nest above the mound anywhere. We debated whether it
was a partially developed malleefowl embryo that had been kicked out when
the egg broke, but a) no way, b) it doesn't look anything like a megapode
chick, and c) no, bleeping, way. My working hypothesis is it was carried off
by something like a currawong or butcher-bird but was dropped when the bird
was surprised by our approach.

Some more of my very modest pics can be found here:
http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/rmacfarl/library/Uploads/Bronzewing%202014
?sort=3&page=1, and include a nest of a little button-quail that my Dad
flushed as we walked through the bush.

We were a bit slack about keeping a list (too busy trekking around mounds to
chase birds) but these are what I can recall off the top of my head:

emu (didn't see one but lots of tracks, including chicks) malleefowl (fist
pump) little button-quail mallee ringneck parrot regent parrot (in a few
unburnt mallee trees at the northern edge of the reserve) galah common
bronzewing pigeon crested pigeon rainbow bee-eater splendid fairy-wren
chestnut quail-thrush (lovely views as it gave its alarm and contact calls)
wood-swallows (calling overhead - probably white-browed) willy wagtail jacky
winter yellow-throated miner rufous whistler grey shrike-thrush grey
(black-winged) currawong grey butcher-bird Australian (black-backed) magpie
Australian raven

But few signs of life on the wind-swept sand hills in the centre of the
reserve.

Nevertheless, Earth abides, including Bronzewing. I look forward to watching
it recover over the next couple of decades...

Cheers,

Ross Macfarlane

Victorian Malleefowl Recovery Group, Inc.

)  0417 370 371

+  rmacfarl AT tpg.com.au

:  www.malleefowlvictoria.org.au


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Subject: Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
From: Graeme Stevens <gestev45 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:57:12 +1100
Thanks Trevor,
Delighted if that is the case. I assume the eBird records will go through the 
same moderation process and that must be generating quite a workload. 

 
Just as an aside: I notice on eBird that when browsing recent entries there are 
often multiple entries for what appears to be the same survey or outing. e.g. 
say a group of 5 observers visit a site and record 23 species - there are at 
times five different entries all for the same 23 species. 

 
I do hope the Atlas moderator ditches 4 of the 5??? or we would surely be 
biasing abundance ratios etc. I wonder if that is the case? 

 
Best
Graeme 
 
> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:01:27 +1030
> From: trevor.hampel AT gmail.com
> To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
> 
> 
> On 17/10/2014 10:54 AM, Graeme Stevens wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >   
> > As a long term "Atlasser", I consider it would be a great shame indeed if 
the increasing volume of field work registered on e-bird and Eremaea did not 
contribute to what is now a long term and very rich database created over 
decades by dedicated "citizen scientists" and professional ornithologists. (the 
current Atlas registers 677,000 surveys covering 318,000 sites) 

> Hi everyone,
> 
> After a long debate with myself about what to do with my many thousands 
> of bird records going back many years I have recently started entering 
> my bird observations into E-bird. It clearly states on the site that all 
> records feed into the Birdlife Australia Atlas Database:
> 
> /*Eremaea eBird feeds into the Birdlife Australia Atlas database and is 
> used to help make conservation decisions for Australian birds. In this 
> way any contribution made to eBird increases our understanding of the 
> distribution, richness, and uniqueness of the biodiversity of our planet.
> 
> */Mind you, the above quote took me a while to find, but there it is, so 
> I am entering data as quickly as time and energy allows. In the early 
> Australian Atlas days I contributed many hundreds of sheets but over the 
> last decade that effort has dwindled to zero due to personal reasons.
> 
> It concerned me that all of my observations going back to the mid 1970s 
> would languish unused on my computer database (Birdinfo). Ebird is my 
> way of continuing to make a valuable contribution to conservation.
> 
> I hope that this helps to clarify the Atlas question regarding Ebird.
> 
> Trevor
> 
> -- 
> Trevor Hampel,
> Murray Bridge,
> South Australia.
> 
> CHECK OUT MY BLOGS:
> 
> Trevor's Birding: http://www.trevorsbirding.com/
> 
> Trevor's Travels: http://www.trevorstravels.com/
> 
> Trevor's Writing: http://www.trevorhampel.com/
> 
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/TrevorHampel
> 
> 
>
Birding-Aus mailing list >
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Subject: Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
From: Trevor Hampel <trevor.hampel AT gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:01:27 +1030
On 17/10/2014 10:54 AM, Graeme Stevens wrote:
>
>
>
>   
> As a long term "Atlasser", I consider it would be a great shame indeed if the 
increasing volume of field work registered on e-bird and Eremaea did not 
contribute to what is now a long term and very rich database created over 
decades by dedicated "citizen scientists" and professional ornithologists. (the 
current Atlas registers 677,000 surveys covering 318,000 sites) 

Hi everyone,

After a long debate with myself about what to do with my many thousands 
of bird records going back many years I have recently started entering 
my bird observations into E-bird. It clearly states on the site that all 
records feed into the Birdlife Australia Atlas Database:

/*Eremaea eBird feeds into the Birdlife Australia Atlas database and is 
used to help make conservation decisions for Australian birds. In this 
way any contribution made to eBird increases our understanding of the 
distribution, richness, and uniqueness of the biodiversity of our planet.

*/Mind you, the above quote took me a while to find, but there it is, so 
I am entering data as quickly as time and energy allows. In the early 
Australian Atlas days I contributed many hundreds of sheets but over the 
last decade that effort has dwindled to zero due to personal reasons.

It concerned me that all of my observations going back to the mid 1970s 
would languish unused on my computer database (Birdinfo). Ebird is my 
way of continuing to make a valuable contribution to conservation.

I hope that this helps to clarify the Atlas question regarding Ebird.

Trevor

-- 
Trevor Hampel,
Murray Bridge,
South Australia.

CHECK OUT MY BLOGS:

Trevor's Birding: http://www.trevorsbirding.com/

Trevor's Travels: http://www.trevorstravels.com/

Trevor's Writing: http://www.trevorhampel.com/

Twitter: http://twitter.com/TrevorHampel



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Subject: Re: Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take 2
From: Damien Farine <swiss7 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:08:16 +1100
Ian,
As I mentioned in my previous post, these kinds of debates/questions are 
important to raise now and again to encourage banders to reflect on what goals 
their effects are achieving. 

However, these sorts of emails are not particularly useful as they provide only 
opinions and emotions, rather than making a contribution based on evidence. 
Take your comparison of the effects of photography to bird banding. Whilst the 
effect of a photographer flushing a bird may appear to be minor to the 
perpetrator, the repeated effects of these sort of disturbances week after week 
by hundreds or thousands of photographers may have profound impacts individual 
bird's perception of risk, resulting in changes in its behaviour that can 
affect how much it forages and subsequently its reproductive success. So far I 
have been 'hand-waving', but there are published studies, for example on 
European oystercatchers, that show direct evidence for this. Further, many 
studies have demonstrated very clearly that birds with greater perceived risk 
suffer negative physiological effects that can reduce survival via a range of 
mechanisms. No one is claiming that banding doesn't have some impact on the 
particular individuals that are captured and banded, but frequent disturbances 
(including walking dogs, etc.) can have impact on tens or hundreds of 
individual birds each time a disturbance occurs, and, as a result, change 
behavioural patterns at a much larger scale. This effect should not be 
under-estimated, or brushed away with a feather duster. 

The arguments you put forward are also entirely restricted to waders, whereas 
the original posting was about a trip to mallee habitat. There are many good 
studies that can demonstrate there is very little long-term impact of banding 
on individual birds. In one of my research sites, we have tracked the same 
birds year-in year-out building nests, feeding young, and so on with no adverse 
effects. For example, of the 63 birds we colour-banded in the initial cohort in 
2010, we resighted every single bird multiple times in subsequent years (they 
sometimes disappear for months or years, only to mysteriously return - with all 
appendages intact). Sure the capturing and banding events were stressful, but 
our priority is to minimise the impact of this, and I think our data suggests 
we do a very good job of it. 

I would be very surprised if banding shorebirds would make any contributions to 
the decline of waders. If you are concerned you could request the data from 
those involved in the studies and do an analysis on it to provide evidence 
either for or against this. Even better, why not fund (or raise money for) a 
scholarship for a graduate student to investigate this question in detail by 
performing experiments to get at the causal factors? 

I was asked by Steve Read for more information by listing published studies. 
For the purpose of promoting a constructive debate, I have pasted my reply 
below. 

One final point is that arguments based around the need for science to have 
immediate deliverable impacts (i.e. banding should help save birds) are 
extremely detrimental to the future of science (sadly this is the view of our 
current government). Almost all the scientific knowledge we have is built up 
from discovery science. This is research done to address what can appear as 
narrow goals, but is usually framed in a broader set of hypotheses. Thus, what 
we should not be asking if 'banding will help save birds', but rather if 
'banding will continue to contribute to the knowledge we need to help in the 
conservation of birds'. I think the answer to the latter is a resounding YES. 

I might close off by indulging in mentioning that while writing this reply, a 
Great horned owl has been calling outside my window. Last week it was a Western 
screech-owl calling from the same tree. 


-----------------------------Dear Steve,I think this is a very good idea, but I 
assure you that the literature will be much too large to capture in this 
setting. You could start by using Google Scholar and search for the term 
"ABBBS". This will bring up many studies that were performed under the 
oversight of the Australian bird banding office (about 450 results/studies). 
Here's a link: http://goo.gl/KUfhKzOne very good example in the study 
population that I work on shows how birds have tracked climate change over many 
years. This relies on c. 50 years of bird banding data (link should be to a 
PDF):http://goo.gl/OSEFWXIn this population, we now fit each bird with 
individually-coded electronic tags that enable us to sample them automatically 
across their entire lifetimes, which is opening up a wealth of knowledge about 
what they do. Many studies also use colour bands to resight individuals in the 
field without having to recapture them. A classic study of this is all the work 
that has been done on fairy-wrens (mostly at the ANU): http://goo.gl/ufpa8EI 
agree that there should be more interaction between scientists and the general 
public to make research findings more available. In the UK now, all 
government-funded research has to be published in a way that the results are 
freely-accessible by everyone (open-access). However this would still rely on 
going out and searching for these studies. As a result, most research funding 
now has to justify achieving broader impacts beyond publishing results, 
typically associated with making research accessible to the general public. 
Thus, I expect that things will improve in the future (maybe not in Australia 
as less and less research is funded in the first 
place).----------------------------- 



> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 16:02:58 +1100
> From: birding AT ozemail.com.au
> To: gclancy AT tpg.com.au
> CC: gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au; birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take 
2 

> 
> We are in full agreement about habitat protection however, no matter 
> which way I look at it, I just cannot see how banding helps to save any 
> bird.
> 
> As a friend pointed out to me recently, comparing the impacts of call 
> playback and bird photography with the adverse impacts of bird banding, 
> canon netting, mist netting and leg flagging etc. is like comparing 
> being hit with a feather duster compared to a speeding Mack truck. 
> 
> Recently I observed a photograph of a small wader with 5 flags and two 
> bands.  I have seen Curlew Sandpiper with 4 flags. There is a photograph 
> circulating of flagged and banded Spoon-billed Sandpiper chicks.  It 
> might be nice to know everywhere they go but surely such an endangered 
> small migratory bird should be protected to migrate unimpeded..   How 
> can banding a Spoon-billed Sandpiper chick help save them.  More likely, 
> these birds are doomed because of their handling and banding.
> 
> Many small waders populations are in decline.  I remember when 
> repeatable counts indicated most small wader populations were stable.  
> Red Knots and Curlew Sandpiper were widespread and common. While 
> obviously there are habitat protection issues too, dropping numbers of 
> these species closely correlate with the period when canon netting and 
> leg flagging commenced and the declining numbers correlate too.   Just a 
> coincidence?   I don't think so.
> 
> A high percentage (not a small percentage as we have been asked to 
> remember) of the Sanderling population in Southern Australia have been 
> leg flagged and their declining numbers also correlate closely with 
> numbers flagged.  12 months after flagging, retrap rates are minuscule 
> and the lost birds cannot be logically explained.
> 
> Ian May
> St Helens Tasmania
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g and Val Clancy wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have been banding birds since 1971 and as suggested I do think 
> > carefully about the pros and cons of this activity.  I get sad when I 
> > see people suggesting that we know all that we need to know from 
> > banding when that is patently not the case.  We have only scratched 
> > the surface when it comes to our understanding of Australia's birds 
> > and their movements.  I am glad that people are compassionate enough 
> > to be concerned about the birds' welfare as this is paramount in my 
> > thoughts as well but please direct your concerns where they really 
> > need to be directed - at the people clearing natural ecosystems, at 
> > people shooting ducks for sport, at people who have cats and dogs that 
> > are allowed to roam and kill our wildlife etc..  I know that some 
> > people have witnessed accidents during banding activities and this has 
> > coloured their view for life but the rare case where a bird suffers 
> > from banding should not mean that it is not a legitimate and humane 
> > activity.  I hold an animal care and ethics approval for my banding 
> > and I am held accountable for any losses.  People who do not like 
> > birds being banded are entitled to their opinion but, like Martin, 
> > please find out all you can about the positives before condemning the 
> > people who are giving large amounts of their own time and money to 
> > research the birds so that they can be saved.  The winter movement of 
> > birds such as Grey Fantails, Golden Whistlers, Striated Pardalotes and 
> > other species from Tasmania and southern Australia to the north coast 
> > of New South Wales and southern Queensland is only now being 
> > recognised.  We need more banders to track these movements not less 
> > banding.  Remember banders will only ever band a small percentage of 
> > the population of any species but that percentage can provide 
> > essential data that cannot be gathered by observation alone.  It was 
> > banding that proved that the formerly recognised two species of 
> > Silvereye in south-eastern Australia were in fact the one species but 
> > one type was of Tasmanian origin and the other of local origin.  My 
> > banding research on the Eastern Osprey, Black-necked Stork, Beach 
> > Stone-curlew and Australian Pied Oystercatcher and others has provided 
> > essential data required for the management of these threatened 
> > species.  Banding is not the problem it is an important part of the 
> > solution.
> >
> > Regards
> > Greg
> >
> > Dr Greg. P. Clancy
> > Ecologist and Birding-wildlife Guide
> > | PO Box 63 Coutts Crossing NSW 2460
> > | 02 6649 3153  | 0429 601 960
> > http://www.gregclancyecologistguide.com
> > http://gregswildliferamblings.blogspot.com.au/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message----- From: martin cachard
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:06 PM
> > To: Dr Mark Carey ; geoff jones barra images ; 
> > birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature 
> > Reserve take 2
> >
> > this is a very interesting thread & I've learnt so much already just 
> > from a couple of posts, so thank you so far for these  insights into 
> > banding.
> >
> > one species I believe which could reveal some interesting findings 
> > could be the local breeding canescens race of Black-winged Monarch,  a 
> > species I've been doing much fieldwork on in recent years...
> > one perplexing question for me is where do they winter when not in 
> > Australia??
> > of course some banding would also need to be done in PNG or wherever 
> > else we believe this race may winter...
> > I truly wonder???
> >
> > any ideas on doing such a project anyone??
> >
> > cheers,
> > martin cachard,
> > cairns
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: markcarey82 AT hotmail.com
> >> To: gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au; birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> >> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 12:28:39 +1100
> >> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature 
> >> Reserve take 2
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> A good article that explains quite nicely why we should
> >> continue banding and why banding schemes are important!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.britishbirds.co.uk/article/bird-ringing-still-necessary/
> >>
> >>
> >>  Cheers, Mark
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > From: gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au
> >> > To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> >> > Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 08:50:22 +1100
> >> > Subject: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve 
> >> take > 2
> >> >
> >> > In response to Harveys reply I need to apologise to Harvey about 
> >> leaving > the
> >> > nets unattended as he has now said that the nets were not opened 
> >> before > they
> >> > went off and set up camp and I have already sent a personal email 
> >> to > Harvey
> >> > on that subject. But if you had read Harvey's Blog here is an 
> >> excerpt > from
> >> > it;  " When we arrived at Buddigower, Karen and I set to to get a 
> >> few > nets
> >> > up before dusk, in the same area we had banded those four years > 
> >> previously,
> >> > then went about the business of setting up camp"  This quote is how 
> >> I > came
> >> > to that conclusion, however it still does not change my point of 
> >> view > about
> >> > banding birds in a local areas, again I ask for what purpose is it 
> >> done?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > My personal thoughts are that a bird count done regularly by a 
> >> local > bird
> >> > club will give you a considerable amount of information without 
> >> putting > the
> >> > birds thru the trauma of being banded. Last Saturday afternoon I > 
> >> personally
> >> > observed Sharp-tailed Sandpipers that had recently arrived and were
> >> > vigorously feeding after their annual migration to our shores. They 
> >> were
> >> > feeding in one of the ponds near the Burrow Pits at the Western > 
> >> Treatment
> >> > Plant and as they struggled to raise their legs in the soft mud I > 
> >> couldn't
> >> > help but think that if they had large leg flags on their feet and 
> >> that > if
> >> > birds of prey were around, which is quite common at this site, it 
> >> could > be
> >> > the difference between life and death for those birds.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Most people now know that the population of waders are dramatically 
> >> > dropping
> >> > as many local groups throughout Australian do numerous wader counts 
> >> and > that
> >> > information is passed on to the appropriate people and/or 
> >> organizations.
> >> >
> >> > So why should we continue to Net, Traumatize and in some cases kill 
> >> or > maim
> >> > birds, all for so-called research?  I for one think not!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Kindest Regards
> >> >
> >> > Geoff Jones
> >> >
> >> > Barra Imaging
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! 
> >> Antivirus > protection is active.
> >> > http://www.avast.com
> >> > 
> >> >
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> >>
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Subject: Bronzewing Diary 2014
From: "Ross Macfarlane" <rmacfarl AT tpg.com.au>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 20:41:56 +1100
Well I finally was able to return to Bronzewing Flora & Fauna Reserve, in the 
wake of the devastating fires in January this year. In case you didn’t know, 
my Dad & I have been monitoring malleefowl mounds there since 2002 – part of 
Joe Benshemesh’s long-term malleefowl monitoring project which is supported 
by the volunteer efforts of the Victorian Malleefowl Recovery Group. 


The Bronzewing monitoring site, which measures about 3km by 1.5km at the 
northern end of the 16,000ha reserve, has 108 nest sites, of which typically 
15-20 have been active in any 1 year (the record was 32 in 2012.) But with the 
entire site and over 80% of the whole reserve being burnt in January, we had 
little expectation of finding mounds being used to incubate eggs for the next 
few years at least. 


So little faith! We went there after our annual training weekend at Wyperfeld 
last weekend, and in 3 gruelling days (too little time for a site this size, 
even with most of the mallee bush gone,) we found 2 active mounds, and on 
Tuesday I photographed the male at the mound, in a tiny unburnt remnant. The 
other active mound was not even that lucky – the trees had been scorched and 
the leaves in the canopy were all dead. 


But at that mound: a conundrum. Can anyone help me identify this chick which I 
found face down next to the base of the mound? I should say it actually gaped 
once when I first found it. 



http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/rmacfarl/media/Uploads/Bronzewing%202014/100_0356_zps8972d1bd.jpg.html 


http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/rmacfarl/media/Uploads/Bronzewing%202014/100_0355_zps73b511fe.jpg.html 


There was no sign of a nest above the mound anywhere. We debated whether it was 
a partially developed malleefowl embryo that had been kicked out when the egg 
broke, but a) no way, b) it doesn’t look anything like a megapode chick, and 
c) no, bleeping, way. My working hypothesis is it was carried off by something 
like a currawong or butcher-bird but was dropped when the bird was surprised by 
our approach. 


Some more of my very modest pics can be found here: 
http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/rmacfarl/library/Uploads/Bronzewing%202014?sort=3&page=1, 
and include a nest of a little button-quail that my Dad flushed as we walked 
through the bush. 


We were a bit slack about keeping a list (too busy trekking around mounds to 
chase birds) but these are what I can recall off the top of my head: 


emu (didn’t see one but lots of tracks, including chicks)
malleefowl (fist pump)
little button-quail
mallee ringneck parrot
regent parrot (in a few unburnt mallee trees at the northern edge of the 
reserve) 

galah
common bronzewing pigeon
crested pigeon
rainbow bee-eater
splendid fairy-wren
chestnut quail-thrush (lovely views as it gave its alarm and contact calls)
wood-swallows (calling overhead – probably white-browed)
willy wagtail
jacky winter
yellow-throated miner
rufous whistler
grey shrike-thrush
grey (black-winged) currawong
grey butcher-bird
Australian (black-backed) magpie
Australian raven

But few signs of life on the wind-swept sand hills in the centre of the 
reserve. 


Nevertheless, Earth abides, including Bronzewing. I look forward to watching it 
recover over the next couple of decades... 


Cheers,

Ross Macfarlane

Victorian Malleefowl Recovery Group, Inc.

)  0417 370 371

+  rmacfarl AT tpg.com.au

:  www.malleefowlvictoria.org.au


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Subject: Black Butcherbird
From: Graeme Chapman <naturalight AT graemechapman.com.au>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 19:58:49 +1100
Hello Joseph,

I am sure the reason why Black Butcherbirds have been recorded as "breeding" in 
rufous plumage is simply a case of immature helpers at the nest, a common 
behaviour in the family Cracticidae certainly by Pied Butcherbirds, less often 
by Grey Butcherbirds also by Australian Magpies and some woodswallows. 


The brown plumage of young Pied Butcherbirds is well known and a good parallel 
to the rufous plumage of young Black Butcherbirds. On my website, 

image #700206 shows a young Pied helping at the nest.

I can find only one reference to known young Black Butcherbirds (in this case 
nestlings) in black plumage in Australia, this a second hand report related by 
A.J North in his "Nests and Eggs -------". Reading the rest of his notes, it is 
certainly not the norm and indeed probably quite unusual. 


Regards

Graeme Chapman.


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Subject: Help Albert's Lyrebird
From: Barbara Stewart <barbara.stewart AT landmarkonline.com.au>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 17:14:18 +1100
Dear Birding-aus

It is crunch time for our crowd-funded project to restore habitat for Albert’s 
Lyrebird in Wilsons Creek and Huonbrook valleys, north east NSW. If we do not 
reach our target, the existing pledges will not be realised and we will receive 
no funding at all. 


 The target is within our reach. Support has been brilliant! We have $2,620 
pledged, or 34% of our target, with 12 days to go. We have established networks 
on social media and reached many concerned bird-lovers who understand the 
benefits of extending and connecting habitat. NOW is the time to act by making 
a pledge, small or large and spreading the word even further. 



 Please go to the Pozible site to view the project, donate and use the sharing 
tools. On Facebook, check out “Help Albert’s Lyrebird” for this week’s 
recording of Albert’s Lyrebird song and mimicry in our regenerating rainforest 
(and share!) 





www.pozible.com.au/helpalbert


Thank you so much

(Dr) Barbara Stewart
barbara.stewart AT landmarkonline.com.au
President
Wilsons Creek Huonbrook Landcare Inc










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Subject: Re: Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take 2
From: Peter Shute <pshute AT nuw.org.au>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 17:12:15 +1100
Is there any chance we could see the photo of the wader with five flags, Ian? 
What species was it? 


Can anyone tell me what the allowable limit is?

Peter Shute

Sent from my iPhone

> On 17 Oct 2014, at 5:03 pm, "Ian May"  wrote:
> 
> We are in full agreement about habitat protection however, no matter
> which way I look at it, I just cannot see how banding helps to save any
> bird.
> 
> As a friend pointed out to me recently, comparing the impacts of call
> playback and bird photography with the adverse impacts of bird banding,
> canon netting, mist netting and leg flagging etc. is like comparing
> being hit with a feather duster compared to a speeding Mack truck.
> 
> Recently I observed a photograph of a small wader with 5 flags and two
> bands.  I have seen Curlew Sandpiper with 4 flags. There is a photograph
> circulating of flagged and banded Spoon-billed Sandpiper chicks.  It
> might be nice to know everywhere they go but surely such an endangered
> small migratory bird should be protected to migrate unimpeded..   How
> can banding a Spoon-billed Sandpiper chick help save them.  More likely,
> these birds are doomed because of their handling and banding.
> 
> Many small waders populations are in decline.  I remember when
> repeatable counts indicated most small wader populations were stable.
> Red Knots and Curlew Sandpiper were widespread and common. While
> obviously there are habitat protection issues too, dropping numbers of
> these species closely correlate with the period when canon netting and
> leg flagging commenced and the declining numbers correlate too.   Just a
> coincidence?   I don't think so.
> 
> A high percentage (not a small percentage as we have been asked to
> remember) of the Sanderling population in Southern Australia have been
> leg flagged and their declining numbers also correlate closely with
> numbers flagged.  12 months after flagging, retrap rates are minuscule
> and the lost birds cannot be logically explained.
> 
> Ian May
> St Helens Tasmania
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g and Val Clancy wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I have been banding birds since 1971 and as suggested I do think
>> carefully about the pros and cons of this activity.  I get sad when I
>> see people suggesting that we know all that we need to know from
>> banding when that is patently not the case.  We have only scratched
>> the surface when it comes to our understanding of Australia's birds
>> and their movements.  I am glad that people are compassionate enough
>> to be concerned about the birds' welfare as this is paramount in my
>> thoughts as well but please direct your concerns where they really
>> need to be directed - at the people clearing natural ecosystems, at
>> people shooting ducks for sport, at people who have cats and dogs that
>> are allowed to roam and kill our wildlife etc..  I know that some
>> people have witnessed accidents during banding activities and this has
>> coloured their view for life but the rare case where a bird suffers
>> from banding should not mean that it is not a legitimate and humane
>> activity.  I hold an animal care and ethics approval for my banding
>> and I am held accountable for any losses.  People who do not like
>> birds being banded are entitled to their opinion but, like Martin,
>> please find out all you can about the positives before condemning the
>> people who are giving large amounts of their own time and money to
>> research the birds so that they can be saved.  The winter movement of
>> birds such as Grey Fantails, Golden Whistlers, Striated Pardalotes and
>> other species from Tasmania and southern Australia to the north coast
>> of New South Wales and southern Queensland is only now being
>> recognised.  We need more banders to track these movements not less
>> banding.  Remember banders will only ever band a small percentage of
>> the population of any species but that percentage can provide
>> essential data that cannot be gathered by observation alone.  It was
>> banding that proved that the formerly recognised two species of
>> Silvereye in south-eastern Australia were in fact the one species but
>> one type was of Tasmanian origin and the other of local origin.  My
>> banding research on the Eastern Osprey, Black-necked Stork, Beach
>> Stone-curlew and Australian Pied Oystercatcher and others has provided
>> essential data required for the management of these threatened
>> species.  Banding is not the problem it is an important part of the
>> solution.
>> 
>> Regards
>> Greg
>> 
>> Dr Greg. P. Clancy
>> Ecologist and Birding-wildlife Guide
>> | PO Box 63 Coutts Crossing NSW 2460
>> | 02 6649 3153  | 0429 601 960
>> http://www.gregclancyecologistguide.com
>> http://gregswildliferamblings.blogspot.com.au/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: martin cachard
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:06 PM
>> To: Dr Mark Carey ; geoff jones barra images ;
>> birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
>> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature
>> Reserve take 2
>> 
>> this is a very interesting thread & I've learnt so much already just
>> from a couple of posts, so thank you so far for these  insights into
>> banding.
>> 
>> one species I believe which could reveal some interesting findings
>> could be the local breeding canescens race of Black-winged Monarch,  a
>> species I've been doing much fieldwork on in recent years...
>> one perplexing question for me is where do they winter when not in
>> Australia??
>> of course some banding would also need to be done in PNG or wherever
>> else we believe this race may winter...
>> I truly wonder???
>> 
>> any ideas on doing such a project anyone??
>> 
>> cheers,
>> martin cachard,
>> cairns
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> From: markcarey82 AT hotmail.com
>>> To: gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au; birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
>>> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 12:28:39 +1100
>>> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature
>>> Reserve take 2
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A good article that explains quite nicely why we should
>>> continue banding and why banding schemes are important!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://www.britishbirds.co.uk/article/bird-ringing-still-necessary/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Cheers, Mark
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> From: gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au
>>>> To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
>>>> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 08:50:22 +1100
>>>> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve
>>> take > 2
>>>> 
>>>> In response to Harveys reply I need to apologise to Harvey about
>>> leaving > the
>>>> nets unattended as he has now said that the nets were not opened
>>> before > they
>>>> went off and set up camp and I have already sent a personal email
>>> to > Harvey
>>>> on that subject. But if you had read Harvey's Blog here is an
>>> excerpt > from
>>>> it;  " When we arrived at Buddigower, Karen and I set to to get a
>>> few > nets
>>>> up before dusk, in the same area we had banded those four years >
>>> previously,
>>>> then went about the business of setting up camp"  This quote is how
>>> I > came
>>>> to that conclusion, however it still does not change my point of
>>> view > about
>>>> banding birds in a local areas, again I ask for what purpose is it
>>> done?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> My personal thoughts are that a bird count done regularly by a
>>> local > bird
>>>> club will give you a considerable amount of information without
>>> putting > the
>>>> birds thru the trauma of being banded. Last Saturday afternoon I >
>>> personally
>>>> observed Sharp-tailed Sandpipers that had recently arrived and were
>>>> vigorously feeding after their annual migration to our shores. They
>>> were
>>>> feeding in one of the ponds near the Burrow Pits at the Western >
>>> Treatment
>>>> Plant and as they struggled to raise their legs in the soft mud I >
>>> couldn't
>>>> help but think that if they had large leg flags on their feet and
>>> that > if
>>>> birds of prey were around, which is quite common at this site, it
>>> could > be
>>>> the difference between life and death for those birds.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Most people now know that the population of waders are dramatically
>>>> dropping
>>>> as many local groups throughout Australian do numerous wader counts
>>> and > that
>>>> information is passed on to the appropriate people and/or
>>> organizations.
>>>> 
>>>> So why should we continue to Net, Traumatize and in some cases kill
>>> or > maim
>>>> birds, all for so-called research?  I for one think not!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Kindest Regards
>>>> 
>>>> Geoff Jones
>>>> 
>>>> Barra Imaging
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ---
>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
>>> Antivirus > protection is active.
>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>> 
>>>>
Birding-Aus mailing list >>>>
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >>>>
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>>>
>>> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org >>>> >>> >>>
>>>
Birding-Aus mailing list >>>
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >>>
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>>
http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org >>> >> >> >>
>>
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Subject: Cumberland Bird Observers Club Bus Trip
From: "keith brandwood" <kbrandwood AT bigpond.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 16:22:28 +1100
Hi Sydneysiders/birders, CBOC have a bus trip to the beautiful Putty Valley on 
Sunday 2nd Nov and we need some bums on seats cost $30.00 MEMBERS $40 NON 
MEMBERS contact Keith if you are interested. Its a great birding location. 

the beautiful Hawkesbury 80 km N/W of Sydney,


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Subject: Re: Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve take 2
From: Ian May <birding AT ozemail.com.au>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 16:02:58 +1100
We are in full agreement about habitat protection however, no matter 
which way I look at it, I just cannot see how banding helps to save any 
bird.

As a friend pointed out to me recently, comparing the impacts of call 
playback and bird photography with the adverse impacts of bird banding, 
canon netting, mist netting and leg flagging etc. is like comparing 
being hit with a feather duster compared to a speeding Mack truck. 

Recently I observed a photograph of a small wader with 5 flags and two 
bands.  I have seen Curlew Sandpiper with 4 flags. There is a photograph 
circulating of flagged and banded Spoon-billed Sandpiper chicks.  It 
might be nice to know everywhere they go but surely such an endangered 
small migratory bird should be protected to migrate unimpeded..   How 
can banding a Spoon-billed Sandpiper chick help save them.  More likely, 
these birds are doomed because of their handling and banding.

Many small waders populations are in decline.  I remember when 
repeatable counts indicated most small wader populations were stable.  
Red Knots and Curlew Sandpiper were widespread and common. While 
obviously there are habitat protection issues too, dropping numbers of 
these species closely correlate with the period when canon netting and 
leg flagging commenced and the declining numbers correlate too.   Just a 
coincidence?   I don't think so.

A high percentage (not a small percentage as we have been asked to 
remember) of the Sanderling population in Southern Australia have been 
leg flagged and their declining numbers also correlate closely with 
numbers flagged.  12 months after flagging, retrap rates are minuscule 
and the lost birds cannot be logically explained.

Ian May
St Helens Tasmania

------------------------------------------------------------------------




g and Val Clancy wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have been banding birds since 1971 and as suggested I do think 
> carefully about the pros and cons of this activity.  I get sad when I 
> see people suggesting that we know all that we need to know from 
> banding when that is patently not the case.  We have only scratched 
> the surface when it comes to our understanding of Australia's birds 
> and their movements.  I am glad that people are compassionate enough 
> to be concerned about the birds' welfare as this is paramount in my 
> thoughts as well but please direct your concerns where they really 
> need to be directed - at the people clearing natural ecosystems, at 
> people shooting ducks for sport, at people who have cats and dogs that 
> are allowed to roam and kill our wildlife etc..  I know that some 
> people have witnessed accidents during banding activities and this has 
> coloured their view for life but the rare case where a bird suffers 
> from banding should not mean that it is not a legitimate and humane 
> activity.  I hold an animal care and ethics approval for my banding 
> and I am held accountable for any losses.  People who do not like 
> birds being banded are entitled to their opinion but, like Martin, 
> please find out all you can about the positives before condemning the 
> people who are giving large amounts of their own time and money to 
> research the birds so that they can be saved.  The winter movement of 
> birds such as Grey Fantails, Golden Whistlers, Striated Pardalotes and 
> other species from Tasmania and southern Australia to the north coast 
> of New South Wales and southern Queensland is only now being 
> recognised.  We need more banders to track these movements not less 
> banding.  Remember banders will only ever band a small percentage of 
> the population of any species but that percentage can provide 
> essential data that cannot be gathered by observation alone.  It was 
> banding that proved that the formerly recognised two species of 
> Silvereye in south-eastern Australia were in fact the one species but 
> one type was of Tasmanian origin and the other of local origin.  My 
> banding research on the Eastern Osprey, Black-necked Stork, Beach 
> Stone-curlew and Australian Pied Oystercatcher and others has provided 
> essential data required for the management of these threatened 
> species.  Banding is not the problem it is an important part of the 
> solution.
>
> Regards
> Greg
>
> Dr Greg. P. Clancy
> Ecologist and Birding-wildlife Guide
> | PO Box 63 Coutts Crossing NSW 2460
> | 02 6649 3153  | 0429 601 960
> http://www.gregclancyecologistguide.com
> http://gregswildliferamblings.blogspot.com.au/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: martin cachard
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:06 PM
> To: Dr Mark Carey ; geoff jones barra images ; 
> birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature 
> Reserve take 2
>
> this is a very interesting thread & I've learnt so much already just 
> from a couple of posts, so thank you so far for these  insights into 
> banding.
>
> one species I believe which could reveal some interesting findings 
> could be the local breeding canescens race of Black-winged Monarch,  a 
> species I've been doing much fieldwork on in recent years...
> one perplexing question for me is where do they winter when not in 
> Australia??
> of course some banding would also need to be done in PNG or wherever 
> else we believe this race may winter...
> I truly wonder???
>
> any ideas on doing such a project anyone??
>
> cheers,
> martin cachard,
> cairns
>
>
>
>
>> From: markcarey82 AT hotmail.com
>> To: gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au; birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
>> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 12:28:39 +1100
>> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature 
>> Reserve take 2
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> A good article that explains quite nicely why we should
>> continue banding and why banding schemes are important!
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.britishbirds.co.uk/article/bird-ringing-still-necessary/
>>
>>
>>  Cheers, Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> > From: gjo48414 AT bigpond.net.au
>> > To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
>> > Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 08:50:22 +1100
>> > Subject: [Birding-Aus] Re Banding trip to Buddigower Nature Reserve 
>> take > 2
>> >
>> > In response to Harveys reply I need to apologise to Harvey about 
>> leaving > the
>> > nets unattended as he has now said that the nets were not opened 
>> before > they
>> > went off and set up camp and I have already sent a personal email 
>> to > Harvey
>> > on that subject. But if you had read Harvey's Blog here is an 
>> excerpt > from
>> > it;  " When we arrived at Buddigower, Karen and I set to to get a 
>> few > nets
>> > up before dusk, in the same area we had banded those four years > 
>> previously,
>> > then went about the business of setting up camp"  This quote is how 
>> I > came
>> > to that conclusion, however it still does not change my point of 
>> view > about
>> > banding birds in a local areas, again I ask for what purpose is it 
>> done?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > My personal thoughts are that a bird count done regularly by a 
>> local > bird
>> > club will give you a considerable amount of information without 
>> putting > the
>> > birds thru the trauma of being banded. Last Saturday afternoon I > 
>> personally
>> > observed Sharp-tailed Sandpipers that had recently arrived and were
>> > vigorously feeding after their annual migration to our shores. They 
>> were
>> > feeding in one of the ponds near the Burrow Pits at the Western > 
>> Treatment
>> > Plant and as they struggled to raise their legs in the soft mud I > 
>> couldn't
>> > help but think that if they had large leg flags on their feet and 
>> that > if
>> > birds of prey were around, which is quite common at this site, it 
>> could > be
>> > the difference between life and death for those birds.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Most people now know that the population of waders are dramatically 
>> > dropping
>> > as many local groups throughout Australian do numerous wader counts 
>> and > that
>> > information is passed on to the appropriate people and/or 
>> organizations.
>> >
>> > So why should we continue to Net, Traumatize and in some cases kill 
>> or > maim
>> > birds, all for so-called research?  I for one think not!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Kindest Regards
>> >
>> > Geoff Jones
>> >
>> > Barra Imaging
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ---
>> > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! 
>> Antivirus > protection is active.
>> > http://www.avast.com
>> > 
>> >
Birding-Aus mailing list >> >
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >> >
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >> >
>> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org >> > >> >>
>>
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>
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>
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Subject: Whoops forgot my parrot home ranges for Adelaide
From: "Donald G. Kimball" <ibwonet1 AT gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 21:05:47 -0700
Whoops too many Aussie States in so little time so my wires got crossed
about what species are found where.  Thanks for the correction.  No king
Parrots in Adelaide or Crimson Rosellas.

Now that I am a bit more alert I will rephrase the question.  Anyone know
accomodation for a small group of people that has Adelaide Rosellas and or
other parrots coming into the yard for a hand out and or water? Close
enough and non plussed by people?

That would be super to find.  Have seen some nice places in Queensland like
that.  But will Adelaide be a parrot friendly city?  hmmm.  Will need to do
more research.  Thanks as always for the comments and help!

Don


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Subject: Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
From: Martin Butterfield <martinflab AT gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 14:10:39 +1100
As a slightly different flavour to this, before I started on eBird my
records for the COG Area of Interest were submitted via COG and I know they
are in Andrews database.  However they don't show up in the maps.  Andrew
was asked a few days ago why this is so, and the answer, when available,
may be the same for eBird records.

Martin

Martin Butterfield
http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/

On 17 October 2014 13:28, Peter Shute  wrote:

> My bet is that it's bound to be somehow related to funding.
>
> Peter Shute
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jenny Spry [mailto:malurus.jenny AT gmail.com]
> > Sent: Friday, 17 October 2014 1:18 PM
> > To: Peter Shute
> > Cc: Graeme Stevens; Steve Clark; Birding-Aus; Andrew Silcocks
> > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am sure Andrew will be able to give more accurate
> > information on this but I have the same problem as Peter, my
> > data from 2010 hasn't been put up yet either. A possible
> > reason is that every data sheet or digital lodgement is
> > checked for accuracy of the sightings before it is uploaded.
> > Maybe they are just running behind.
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Jenny
> > http://jenniferspryausbirding.blogspot.com.au/
> >
> >
> >
> > On 17 October 2014 13:05, Peter Shute  wrote:
> >
> >
> >       I believe the birdata web site isn't directly linked to
> > the Atlas database, so new data doesn't show up until they
> > refresh it. I asked in 2010 why my data wasn't showing up,
> > and was told they were due to do an upload soon. Unless I'm
> > doing something wrong, it's still not showing on the maps.
> >
> >       Peter Shute
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
>
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Subject: bird call recognition app.
From: "Michael Hunter" <drmhunter AT westnet.com.au>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 13:42:55 +1100
Thankyou for all the replies to my enquiry about bird call recognition apps., 
all of which answered in the negative, for the time being at least 


The most erudite reply (Paul Dodd) did give some hope, the University of 
Wisconsin has a project called “WeBird” , incorporating sophisticated 
averaging, but requiring enormous computing power, multiple servers, and a huge 
memory bank of calls. Paul didn’t say whether this included Australian 
species. 


“Shazam” music recognition is remarkable, but is poor on the classics as 
Martin Butterfield notes. Must try it on “The Nightingale”. He also thinks 
that maybe an 80% recognition rate for birds should be relatively easy to 
achieve on a dedicated app. 


Maybe Fred van Gessel could get the “wetware between his ears” (thanks 
Carl), and his tapes, into an Oz memory bank . Surely the common calls would be 
easy enough to recognise. I originally asked the app question after racking my 
own wetware for days after hearing a Jacky Winter call at Gundy different to 
the repertoire of my local Mulgoa family. Eventually saw the caller. Checked on 
the PKBirds app, where it is listed, very strangely, under “Winter Jacky”. 
(What happened to “ Flycatcher Brown”, not catchy enough? ) The calls 
recorded there were similar but different to those at Gundy confirming that 
recording all the possibilities for all the birds would be a giant job. 
Particularly as about half our songbirds indulge in mimicry from time to time. 


                 Cheers

                      Michael

                                 




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Subject: Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
From: Peter Shute <pshute AT nuw.org.au>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 13:28:33 +1100
My bet is that it's bound to be somehow related to funding.

Peter Shute 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jenny Spry [mailto:malurus.jenny AT gmail.com] 
> Sent: Friday, 17 October 2014 1:18 PM
> To: Peter Shute
> Cc: Graeme Stevens; Steve Clark; Birding-Aus; Andrew Silcocks
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I am sure Andrew will be able to give more accurate 
> information on this but I have the same problem as Peter, my 
> data from 2010 hasn't been put up yet either. A possible 
> reason is that every data sheet or digital lodgement is 
> checked for accuracy of the sightings before it is uploaded. 
> Maybe they are just running behind.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Jenny
> http://jenniferspryausbirding.blogspot.com.au/
> 
> 
> 
> On 17 October 2014 13:05, Peter Shute  wrote:
> 
> 
> 	I believe the birdata web site isn't directly linked to 
> the Atlas database, so new data doesn't show up until they 
> refresh it. I asked in 2010 why my data wasn't showing up, 
> and was told they were due to do an upload soon. Unless I'm 
> doing something wrong, it's still not showing on the maps.
> 	
> 	Peter Shute
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 


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Subject: Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
From: Jenny Spry <malurus.jenny AT gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 13:18:03 +1100
Hi all,

I am sure Andrew will be able to give more accurate information on this but
I have the same problem as Peter, my data from 2010 hasn't been put up yet
either. A possible reason is that every data sheet or digital lodgement is
checked for accuracy of the sightings before it is uploaded. Maybe they are
just running behind.

cheers

Jenny
http://jenniferspryausbirding.blogspot.com.au/



On 17 October 2014 13:05, Peter Shute  wrote:

> I believe the birdata web site isn't directly linked to the Atlas
> database, so new data doesn't show up until they refresh it. I asked in
> 2010 why my data wasn't showing up, and was told they were due to do an
> upload soon. Unless I'm doing something wrong, it's still not showing on
> the maps.
>
> Peter Shute
>
>
>


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Subject: Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
From: Peter Shute <pshute AT nuw.org.au>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 13:05:28 +1100
I believe the birdata web site isn't directly linked to the Atlas database, so 
new data doesn't show up until they refresh it. I asked in 2010 why my data 
wasn't showing up, and was told they were due to do an upload soon. Unless I'm 
doing something wrong, it's still not showing on the maps. 


Peter Shute

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birding-Aus 
> [mailto:birding-aus-bounces AT birding-aus.org] On Behalf Of 
> Graeme Stevens
> Sent: Friday, 17 October 2014 12:01 PM
> To: Steve Clark; Birding-Aus
> Cc: Andrew Silcocks
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
> 
> Steve,
> Sounds like it would be good to have some feedback from 
> Andrew on that as well (Sorry Andrew) and perhaps current 
> status of just what integration is happening (or not) from 
> other data feeds - and what functionality is planned?
>  
> Graeme
>  
> > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:39:08 +1100
> > From: bukoba.steve AT gmail.com
> > To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
> > 
> > Something that has been bugging me for a while is that 
> Atlas records I 
> > submit via birdata.com.au never show up on the maps subsequently.  
> > Deters me from doing more of this.
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:24 AM, Graeme Stevens 
> > 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Grahame,
> > >
> > > It is also my understanding that there are plans to 
> revamp the Atlas 
> > > portal and that Birdlife have been appealing for funds to 
> start that work.
> > > Perhaps Andrew you could let the list know what is 
> happening?  Many 
> > > on the list may feel inclined to support the project and even 
> > > contribute to design and functionality if that opportunity exists.
> > >
> > > As a long term "Atlasser", I consider it would be a great shame 
> > > indeed if the increasing volume of field work registered 
> on e-bird 
> > > and Eremaea did not contribute to what is now a long term 
> and very 
> > > rich database created over decades by dedicated "citizen 
> scientists" 
> > > and professional ornithologists. (the current Atlas registers 
> > > 677,000 surveys covering 318,000 sites)
> > >
> > > It has the great advantage (to me) of being moderated to preserve 
> > > data integrity and I have quite rightly been asked for 
> more detail 
> > > to justify some of my entries which involved rarities or range 
> > > extensions. The fact that I am a life member cuts no ice 
> at all and 
> > > nor should it! But the Atlas portal as it stands has the 
> > > disadvantage of little personalisation. As an Atlasser I consider 
> > > that I am contributing to an extremely valuable and long term 
> > > endeavour but you don't get too much back for personal 
> records and 
> > > data manipulation. if the richness of personal utility could be 
> > > enhanced it would now be really something! (on the other 
> hand, it is undoubtedly more straightforward and economical 
> to follow the "KISS"
> > > principle).
> > >
> > > Double data entry has never really appealed - life's too 
> short. So I 
> > > shall continue with the Atlas as for me the contribution to the 
> > > national biodiversity record holds more value than any personal 
> > > record - but that's just me. My Atlas species list from 
> surveys is I 
> > > think around 590, no idea what my total Australian list is.
> > >
> > > Seems to me that convergence of aims and objectives and some 
> > > integration with appropriate data integrity would be just 
> fantastic 
> > > if achievable! And one thing I have learned in my humble 
> career is 
> > > that it is often cheaper and easier to re-engineer than 
> to try to build utopia from scratch.
> > >
> > > Good birding all on the list - whatever directions the 
> passion takes 
> > > you, banding, photography or personal listing  etc (and with a 
> > > fervent hope this generates light more than heat!) Graeme
> > >
> > > > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:09:16 +1000
> > > > From: gwrogers AT bigpond.com
> > > > To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yet another listing app!
> > > >
> > > > When Eremaea eBird was launched, there was mention of a 
> specific 
> > > > BirdLife Atlas entry form to ensure all the Atlas data was 
> > > > included in a list. Currently I use the Other Area 
> input form, but 
> > > > a lot of the information required has to be entered in the 
> > > > Comments field - not a very satisfactory process. And 
> there is no 
> > > > certainty that the data will reach the Atlas as there 
> was with the old Eremaea.
> > > > I understand there are plans for a new portal to the Atlas, but 
> > > > eBird is here and now, and brilliantly easy to use. It 
> would take 
> > > > very little effort to add an Atlas entry form to Eremaea eBird.
> > > > If you would use such a form, please let Eremaea and BirdLife 
> > > > Australia
> > > > know:
> > > > http://help.ebird.org/customer/portal/emails/new?t=412380 and 
> > > > andrew.silcocks AT birdlife.org.au
> > > >   If there is enough interest we may get a form!
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Grahame Rogers
> > > >
> > > > On 17/10/2014 8:32 AM, Dave Torr wrote:
> > > > > My understanding is that Eremaea used to be able to 
> send stuff 
> > > > > to the
> > > BA
> > > > > atlas. Not sure if that happens with eBird?
> > > > >
> > > > > On 17 October 2014 09:29, Martin Butterfield 
> > > > > 
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Given the way the message  from Konkoit appeared, I 
> like many 
> > > > >> others assumed it was spam and thus likely to lead 
> to getting a few things I
> > > > >> didn't want as well as those advertised.   Since 
> no-one from Konkoit
> > > has
> > > > >> seen fit to disabuse this list of that notion, I at 
> least will 
> > > > >> be
> > > staying
> > > > >> well away from it.  (I find eBird to be very good for my 
> > > > >> purposes.)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> A point raised in this thread has been that of data 
> being held 
> > > > >> in
> > > multiple
> > > > >> locations.  I see that as an important issue given 
> the role of 
> > > > >> data in informing EISs development approvals etc.  
> This isn't 
> > > > >> to say there shouldn't be multiple data capture 
> mechanisms but 
> > > > >> the results should
> > > all
> > > > >> end 'somewhere' agreed to be the official repository.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Martin
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Martin Butterfield
> > > > >> http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 17 October 2014 07:52, Peter Shute 
>  wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Yes, before one rejects a new listing system perhaps one 
> > > > >>> should
> > > consider
> > > > >>> whether it's better than previous ones. Has anyone 
> tried this 
> > > > >>> Konkoit database?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I agree with your final point about validation. As far as I 
> > > > >>> know,
> > > this
> > > > >>> does distinguish eBird from many others, and it 
> would be hard 
> > > > >>> to
> > > beat it.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> My memory of Dave Torr's project, if it's the one 
> I'm thnking 
> > > > >>> of, was that it was primarily intended to collate 
> information 
> > > > >>> about birding
> > > sites -
> > > > >>> locations, maps, brochures, etc. A good idea, and I don't 
> > > > >>> think it
> > > has been
> > > > >>> made fully obsolete by the likes of eBird.
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > >
Birding-Aus mailing list > > >
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org > > >
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: > > >
> > > > http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org > > > > > > > >
> >
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> > http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org > > > >
>
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Subject: Re: Yet another listing app!
From: Dave Torr <davidtorr AT gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:34:46 +1100
Glad it is still of use - as I said I really ought to make a concerted
effort to review the whole thing and maybe move it to a new site - but not
until next year at the earliest I think. Maybe Jan when it is too hot to
bird.....​

On 17 October 2014 11:25, Peter Shute  wrote:

> Found it, it's "Birding Sites" under "Come Birding":
> http://birdlifephotography.org.au/come-birding/birding-locations
>
> Here's a random example of the useful stuff in it. The entry for Barmah (
> 
http://birdlifephotography.org.au/component/boca_birding_locations/showsite/12460-barmah) 

> has a link to a pdf guide to the area by the Echuca branch of BOCA,
> whatever they're called now.
>
> I'm sure lots of those resources linked to are gone or out of date by now,
> but lots would still be very useful. Does eBird have a place to record
> links to things like that?
>
> Peter Shute
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dave Torr [mailto:davidtorr AT gmail.com]
> > Sent: Friday, 17 October 2014 9:20 AM
> > To: Peter Shute
> > Cc: Mark Gafney; birding-aus
> > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yet another listing app!
> >
> > Not off the top of my head and at work with limited internet
> > access, but if you go to birdlifephotography.org.au it is
> > under one of the menu items as Birding Sites (I think)​
> >
> > On 17 October 2014 08:45, Peter Shute  wrote:
> >
> >
> >       Have you got a URL for it, Dave? I wanted to check it
> > for something a while back, but assumed it was long gone.
> >
> >       Peter Shute
> >
> >
> >       > -----Original Message-----
> >       > From: Dave Torr [mailto:davidtorr AT gmail.com]
> >       > Sent: Friday, 17 October 2014 8:00 AM
> >       > To: Peter Shute
> >       > Cc: Mark Gafney; birding-aus
> >       > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yet another listing app!
> >       >
> >       > Yes, that is correct Peter - I developed a system to record
> >       > all of that stuff and put it on the old BOCA site - but it
> >       > never was a recording system. It remains on the
> >       > birdlifephotography site but has not been updated for years.
> >       > Maybe if I get bored I will resurrect it next year....
> >       >
> >       >
> >       > On 17 October 2014 07:52, Peter Shute
> >  wrote:
> >       >
> >       >
> >       >       Yes, before one rejects a new listing system perhaps
> >       > one should consider whether it's better than previous ones.
> >       > Has anyone tried this Konkoit database?
> >       >
> >       >       I agree with your final point about validation. As far
> >       > as I know, this does distinguish eBird from many others, and
> >       > it would be hard to beat it.
> >       >
> >       >       My memory of Dave Torr's project, if it's the one I'm
> >       > thnking of, was that it was primarily intended to collate
> >       > information about birding sites - locations, maps, brochures,
> >       > etc. A good idea, and I don't think it has been made fully
> >       > obsolete by the likes of eBird.
> >       >
> >       >       Peter Shute
> >       >
> >       >       > -----Original Message-----
> >       >       > From: Birding-Aus
> >       >       > [mailto:birding-aus-bounces AT birding-aus.org] On
> >       > Behalf Of Mark Gafney
> >       >       > Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2014 10:19 PM
> >       >       > To: Dave Torr
> >       >       > Cc: birding-aus
> >       >       > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yet another listing app!
> >       >       >
> >       >
> >       >       > Dave
> >       >       > I seem to remember you launched your own
> > listing project some
> >       >       > time ago. I dont see you pushing it anymore
> > so perhaps you
> >       >       > took it down and are therefore maybe a bit
> > biased against
> >       >       > others launching similar projects.
> >       >       > I seem to remember other projects (I think
> > BirdStack was one)
> >       >       > which also came and went probably because of the costs
> >       >       > involved in running projects like this. My
> > point is that
> >       >       > there are pros and cons to different projects
> > depending on
> >       >       > what people want from their app but probably the most
> >       >       > important thing is that the data gets
> > validated somewhere,
> >       >       > otherwise garbage in--garbage out
> >       >       >
> >       >       > Cheers
> >       >       > Mark
> >       >       >
> >       >       >
> >       >       >
> >       >       >
> >       >       >
> >       >       > On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Dave Torr
> >       >       >  wrote:
> >       >       >
> >       >       > > Just had a email from Konkoit who have launched yet
> >       > another listing
> >       >       > > app - seriously how many does the world need and how
> >       >       > fragmented will
> >       >       > > all the data become if everyone uses a different
> >       > system......
> >       >       > > 
> > > > >
Birding-Aus mailing list > > > > >
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org > > > > >
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
Birding-Aus mailing list > > > >
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org > > > >
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

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Subject: Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
From: Graeme Stevens <gestev45 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:01:09 +1100
Steve,
Sounds like it would be good to have some feedback from Andrew on that as well 
(Sorry Andrew) and perhaps current status of just what integration is happening 
(or not) from other data feeds - and what functionality is planned? 

 
Graeme
 
> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:39:08 +1100
> From: bukoba.steve AT gmail.com
> To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
> 
> Something that has been bugging me for a while is that Atlas records I
> submit via birdata.com.au never show up on the maps subsequently.  Deters
> me from doing more of this.
> 
> Steve
> 
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:24 AM, Graeme Stevens 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > Grahame,
> >
> > It is also my understanding that there are plans to revamp the Atlas
> > portal and that Birdlife have been appealing for funds to start that work.
> > Perhaps Andrew you could let the list know what is happening?  Many on the
> > list may feel inclined to support the project and even contribute to design 

> > and functionality if that opportunity exists.
> >
> > As a long term "Atlasser", I consider it would be a great shame indeed if
> > the increasing volume of field work registered on e-bird and Eremaea did
> > not contribute to what is now a long term and very rich database created
> > over decades by dedicated "citizen scientists" and professional
> > ornithologists. (the current Atlas registers 677,000 surveys covering
> > 318,000 sites)
> >
> > It has the great advantage (to me) of being moderated to preserve data
> > integrity and I have quite rightly been asked for more detail to justify
> > some of my entries which involved rarities or range extensions. The fact
> > that I am a life member cuts no ice at all and nor should it! But the Atlas 

> > portal as it stands has the disadvantage of little personalisation. As an
> > Atlasser I consider that I am contributing to an extremely valuable and
> > long term endeavour but you don't get too much back for personal records
> > and data manipulation. if the richness of personal utility could be
> > enhanced it would now be really something! (on the other hand, it is
> > undoubtedly more straightforward and economical to follow the "KISS"
> > principle).
> >
> > Double data entry has never really appealed - life's too short. So I shall
> > continue with the Atlas as for me the contribution to the national
> > biodiversity record holds more value than any personal record - but that's
> > just me. My Atlas species list from surveys is I think around 590, no idea
> > what my total Australian list is.
> >
> > Seems to me that convergence of aims and objectives and some integration
> > with appropriate data integrity would be just fantastic if achievable! And
> > one thing I have learned in my humble career is that it is often cheaper
> > and easier to re-engineer than to try to build utopia from scratch.
> >
> > Good birding all on the list - whatever directions the passion takes you,
> > banding, photography or personal listing etc (and with a fervent hope this 

> > generates light more than heat!)
> > Graeme
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:09:16 +1000
> > > From: gwrogers AT bigpond.com
> > > To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yet another listing app!
> > >
> > > When Eremaea eBird was launched, there was mention of a specific
> > > BirdLife Atlas entry form to ensure all the Atlas data was included in a
> > > list. Currently I use the Other Area input form, but a lot of the
> > > information required has to be entered in the Comments field - not a
> > > very satisfactory process. And there is no certainty that the data will
> > > reach the Atlas as there was with the old Eremaea.
> > > I understand there are plans for a new portal to the Atlas, but eBird is
> > > here and now, and brilliantly easy to use. It would take very little
> > > effort to add an Atlas entry form to Eremaea eBird.
> > > If you would use such a form, please let Eremaea and BirdLife Australia
> > > know:
> > > http://help.ebird.org/customer/portal/emails/new?t=412380 and
> > > andrew.silcocks AT birdlife.org.au
> > >   If there is enough interest we may get a form!
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Grahame Rogers
> > >
> > > On 17/10/2014 8:32 AM, Dave Torr wrote:
> > > > My understanding is that Eremaea used to be able to send stuff to the
> > BA
> > > > atlas. Not sure if that happens with eBird?​
> > > >
> > > > On 17 October 2014 09:29, Martin Butterfield 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Given the way the message  from Konkoit appeared, I like many others
> > > >> assumed it was spam and thus likely to lead to getting a few things I
> > > >> didn't want as well as those advertised.   Since no-one from Konkoit
> > has
> > > >> seen fit to disabuse this list of that notion, I at least will be
> > staying
> > > >> well away from it.  (I find eBird to be very good for my purposes.)
> > > >>
> > > >> A point raised in this thread has been that of data being held in
> > multiple
> > > >> locations. I see that as an important issue given the role of data in 

> > > >> informing EISs development approvals etc.  This isn't to say there
> > > >> shouldn't be multiple data capture mechanisms but the results should
> > all
> > > >> end 'somewhere' agreed to be the official repository.
> > > >>
> > > >> Martin
> > > >>
> > > >> Martin Butterfield
> > > >> http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/
> > > >>
> > > >> On 17 October 2014 07:52, Peter Shute  wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Yes, before one rejects a new listing system perhaps one should
> > consider
> > > >>> whether it's better than previous ones. Has anyone tried this Konkoit 

> > > >>> database?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I agree with your final point about validation. As far as I know,
> > this
> > > >>> does distinguish eBird from many others, and it would be hard to
> > beat it.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> My memory of Dave Torr's project, if it's the one I'm thnking of, was 

> > > >>> that it was primarily intended to collate information about birding
> > sites -
> > > >>> locations, maps, brochures, etc. A good idea, and I don't think it
> > has been
> > > >>> made fully obsolete by the likes of eBird.
> >
> >
> > 
> >
Birding-Aus mailing list > >
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org > >
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: > >
http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org > > > > >
>
Birding-Aus mailing list >
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >
http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org >

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Subject: Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
From: Steve Clark <bukoba.steve AT gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:39:08 +1100
Something that has been bugging me for a while is that Atlas records I
submit via birdata.com.au never show up on the maps subsequently.  Deters
me from doing more of this.

Steve

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:24 AM, Graeme Stevens 
wrote:

>
>
>
> Grahame,
>
> It is also my understanding that there are plans to revamp the Atlas
> portal and that Birdlife have been appealing for funds to start that work.
> Perhaps Andrew you could let the list know what is happening?  Many on the
> list may feel inclined to support the project and even contribute to design
> and functionality if that opportunity exists.
>
> As a long term "Atlasser", I consider it would be a great shame indeed if
> the increasing volume of field work registered on e-bird and Eremaea did
> not contribute to what is now a long term and very rich database created
> over decades by dedicated "citizen scientists" and professional
> ornithologists. (the current Atlas registers 677,000 surveys covering
> 318,000 sites)
>
> It has the great advantage (to me) of being moderated to preserve data
> integrity and I have quite rightly been asked for more detail to justify
> some of my entries which involved rarities or range extensions. The fact
> that I am a life member cuts no ice at all and nor should it! But the Atlas
> portal as it stands has the disadvantage of little personalisation. As an
> Atlasser I consider that I am contributing to an extremely valuable and
> long term endeavour but you don't get too much back for personal records
> and data manipulation. if the richness of personal utility could be
> enhanced it would now be really something! (on the other hand, it is
> undoubtedly more straightforward and economical to follow the "KISS"
> principle).
>
> Double data entry has never really appealed - life's too short. So I shall
> continue with the Atlas as for me the contribution to the national
> biodiversity record holds more value than any personal record - but that's
> just me. My Atlas species list from surveys is I think around 590, no idea
> what my total Australian list is.
>
> Seems to me that convergence of aims and objectives and some integration
> with appropriate data integrity would be just fantastic if achievable! And
> one thing I have learned in my humble career is that it is often cheaper
> and easier to re-engineer than to try to build utopia from scratch.
>
> Good birding all on the list - whatever directions the passion takes you,
> banding, photography or personal listing  etc (and with a fervent hope this
> generates light more than heat!)
> Graeme
>
> > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:09:16 +1000
> > From: gwrogers AT bigpond.com
> > To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yet another listing app!
> >
> > When Eremaea eBird was launched, there was mention of a specific
> > BirdLife Atlas entry form to ensure all the Atlas data was included in a
> > list. Currently I use the Other Area input form, but a lot of the
> > information required has to be entered in the Comments field - not a
> > very satisfactory process. And there is no certainty that the data will
> > reach the Atlas as there was with the old Eremaea.
> > I understand there are plans for a new portal to the Atlas, but eBird is
> > here and now, and brilliantly easy to use. It would take very little
> > effort to add an Atlas entry form to Eremaea eBird.
> > If you would use such a form, please let Eremaea and BirdLife Australia
> > know:
> > http://help.ebird.org/customer/portal/emails/new?t=412380 and
> > andrew.silcocks AT birdlife.org.au
> >   If there is enough interest we may get a form!
> >
> > Regards
> > Grahame Rogers
> >
> > On 17/10/2014 8:32 AM, Dave Torr wrote:
> > > My understanding is that Eremaea used to be able to send stuff to the
> BA
> > > atlas. Not sure if that happens with eBird?​
> > >
> > > On 17 October 2014 09:29, Martin Butterfield 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Given the way the message  from Konkoit appeared, I like many others
> > >> assumed it was spam and thus likely to lead to getting a few things I
> > >> didn't want as well as those advertised.   Since no-one from Konkoit
> has
> > >> seen fit to disabuse this list of that notion, I at least will be
> staying
> > >> well away from it.  (I find eBird to be very good for my purposes.)
> > >>
> > >> A point raised in this thread has been that of data being held in
> multiple
> > >> locations.  I see that as an important issue given the role of data in
> > >> informing EISs development approvals etc.  This isn't to say there
> > >> shouldn't be multiple data capture mechanisms but the results should
> all
> > >> end 'somewhere' agreed to be the official repository.
> > >>
> > >> Martin
> > >>
> > >> Martin Butterfield
> > >> http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/
> > >>
> > >> On 17 October 2014 07:52, Peter Shute  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Yes, before one rejects a new listing system perhaps one should
> consider
> > >>> whether it's better than previous ones. Has anyone tried this Konkoit
> > >>> database?
> > >>>
> > >>> I agree with your final point about validation. As far as I know,
> this
> > >>> does distinguish eBird from many others, and it would be hard to
> beat it.
> > >>>
> > >>> My memory of Dave Torr's project, if it's the one I'm thnking of, was
> > >>> that it was primarily intended to collate information about birding
> sites -
> > >>> locations, maps, brochures, etc. A good idea, and I don't think it
> has been
> > >>> made fully obsolete by the likes of eBird.
>
>
> 
>
Birding-Aus mailing list >
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >
http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org > >

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Subject: Re: Yet another listing app!
From: Peter Shute <pshute AT nuw.org.au>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:25:41 +1100
Found it, it's "Birding Sites" under "Come Birding": 
http://birdlifephotography.org.au/come-birding/birding-locations 


Here's a random example of the useful stuff in it. The entry for Barmah 
(http://birdlifephotography.org.au/component/boca_birding_locations/showsite/12460-barmah) 
has a link to a pdf guide to the area by the Echuca branch of BOCA, whatever 
they're called now. 


I'm sure lots of those resources linked to are gone or out of date by now, but 
lots would still be very useful. Does eBird have a place to record links to 
things like that? 


Peter Shute 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Torr [mailto:davidtorr AT gmail.com] 
> Sent: Friday, 17 October 2014 9:20 AM
> To: Peter Shute
> Cc: Mark Gafney; birding-aus
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yet another listing app!
> 
> Not off the top of my head and at work with limited internet 
> access, but if you go to birdlifephotography.org.au it is 
> under one of the menu items as Birding Sites (I think)​
> 
> On 17 October 2014 08:45, Peter Shute  wrote:
> 
> 
> 	Have you got a URL for it, Dave? I wanted to check it 
> for something a while back, but assumed it was long gone.
> 	
> 	Peter Shute
> 	
> 
> 	> -----Original Message-----
> 	> From: Dave Torr [mailto:davidtorr AT gmail.com]
> 	> Sent: Friday, 17 October 2014 8:00 AM
> 	> To: Peter Shute
> 	> Cc: Mark Gafney; birding-aus
> 	> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yet another listing app!
> 	>
> 	> Yes, that is correct Peter - I developed a system to record
> 	> all of that stuff and put it on the old BOCA site - but it
> 	> never was a recording system. It remains on the
> 	> birdlifephotography site but has not been updated for years.
> 	> Maybe if I get bored I will resurrect it next year....
> 	>
> 	>
> 	> On 17 October 2014 07:52, Peter Shute 
>  wrote:
> 	>
> 	>
> 	>       Yes, before one rejects a new listing system perhaps
> 	> one should consider whether it's better than previous ones.
> 	> Has anyone tried this Konkoit database?
> 	>
> 	>       I agree with your final point about validation. As far
> 	> as I know, this does distinguish eBird from many others, and
> 	> it would be hard to beat it.
> 	>
> 	>       My memory of Dave Torr's project, if it's the one I'm
> 	> thnking of, was that it was primarily intended to collate
> 	> information about birding sites - locations, maps, brochures,
> 	> etc. A good idea, and I don't think it has been made fully
> 	> obsolete by the likes of eBird.
> 	>
> 	>       Peter Shute
> 	>
> 	>       > -----Original Message-----
> 	>       > From: Birding-Aus
> 	>       > [mailto:birding-aus-bounces AT birding-aus.org] On
> 	> Behalf Of Mark Gafney
> 	>       > Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2014 10:19 PM
> 	>       > To: Dave Torr
> 	>       > Cc: birding-aus
> 	>       > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yet another listing app!
> 	>       >
> 	>
> 	>       > Dave
> 	>       > I seem to remember you launched your own 
> listing project some
> 	>       > time ago. I dont see you pushing it anymore 
> so perhaps you
> 	>       > took it down and are therefore maybe a bit 
> biased against
> 	>       > others launching similar projects.
> 	>       > I seem to remember other projects (I think 
> BirdStack was one)
> 	>       > which also came and went probably because of the costs
> 	>       > involved in running projects like this. My 
> point is that
> 	>       > there are pros and cons to different projects 
> depending on
> 	>       > what people want from their app but probably the most
> 	>       > important thing is that the data gets 
> validated somewhere,
> 	>       > otherwise garbage in--garbage out
> 	>       >
> 	>       > Cheers
> 	>       > Mark
> 	>       >
> 	>       >
> 	>       >
> 	>       >
> 	>       >
> 	>       > On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Dave Torr
> 	>       >  wrote:
> 	>       >
> 	>       > > Just had a email from Konkoit who have launched yet
> 	> another listing
> 	>       > > app - seriously how many does the world need and how
> 	>       > fragmented will
> 	>       > > all the data become if everyone uses a different
> 	> system......
> 	>       > > 
> > > >
Birding-Aus mailing list > > > >
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org > > > >
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: > > > >
> > > > > > > http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >
Birding-Aus mailing list > > >
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org > > >
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: > > >
> > > > > > http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

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Subject: Re: The Atlas and Yet another listing app!
From: Graeme Stevens <gestev45 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:24:30 +1100


Grahame,
 
It is also my understanding that there are plans to revamp the Atlas portal and 
that Birdlife have been appealing for funds to start that work. 

Perhaps Andrew you could let the list know what is happening? Many on the list 
may feel inclined to support the project and even contribute to design and 
functionality if that opportunity exists. 

 
As a long term "Atlasser", I consider it would be a great shame indeed if the 
increasing volume of field work registered on e-bird and Eremaea did not 
contribute to what is now a long term and very rich database created over 
decades by dedicated "citizen scientists" and professional ornithologists. (the 
current Atlas registers 677,000 surveys covering 318,000 sites) 

 
It has the great advantage (to me) of being moderated to preserve data 
integrity and I have quite rightly been asked for more detail to justify some 
of my entries which involved rarities or range extensions. The fact that I am a 
life member cuts no ice at all and nor should it! But the Atlas portal as it 
stands has the disadvantage of little personalisation. As an Atlasser I 
consider that I am contributing to an extremely valuable and long term 
endeavour but you don't get too much back for personal records and data 
manipulation. if the richness of personal utility could be enhanced it would 
now be really something! (on the other hand, it is undoubtedly more 
straightforward and economical to follow the "KISS" principle). 

 
Double data entry has never really appealed - life's too short. So I shall 
continue with the Atlas as for me the contribution to the national biodiversity 
record holds more value than any personal record - but that's just me. My Atlas 
species list from surveys is I think around 590, no idea what my total 
Australian list is. 

 
Seems to me that convergence of aims and objectives and some integration with 
appropriate data integrity would be just fantastic if achievable! And one thing 
I have learned in my humble career is that it is often cheaper and easier to 
re-engineer than to try to build utopia from scratch. 

 
Good birding all on the list - whatever directions the passion takes you, 
banding, photography or personal listing etc (and with a fervent hope this 
generates light more than heat!) 

Graeme
 
> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:09:16 +1000
> From: gwrogers AT bigpond.com
> To: birding-aus AT birding-aus.org
> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yet another listing app!
> 
> When Eremaea eBird was launched, there was mention of a specific 
> BirdLife Atlas entry form to ensure all the Atlas data was included in a 
> list. Currently I use the Other Area input form, but a lot of the 
> information required has to be entered in the Comments field - not a 
> very satisfactory process. And there is no certainty that the data will 
> reach the Atlas as there was with the old Eremaea.
> I understand there are plans for a new portal to the Atlas, but eBird is 
> here and now, and brilliantly easy to use. It would take very little 
> effort to add an Atlas entry form to Eremaea eBird.
> If you would use such a form, please let Eremaea and BirdLife Australia 
> know:
> http://help.ebird.org/customer/portal/emails/new?t=412380 and
> andrew.silcocks AT birdlife.org.au
>   If there is enough interest we may get a form!
> 
> Regards
> Grahame Rogers
> 
> On 17/10/2014 8:32 AM, Dave Torr wrote:
> > My understanding is that Eremaea used to be able to send stuff to the BA
> > atlas. Not sure if that happens with eBird?​
> >
> > On 17 October 2014 09:29, Martin Butterfield  wrote:
> >
> >> Given the way the message  from Konkoit appeared, I like many others
> >> assumed it was spam and thus likely to lead to getting a few things I
> >> didn't want as well as those advertised.   Since no-one from Konkoit has
> >> seen fit to disabuse this list of that notion, I at least will be staying
> >> well away from it.  (I find eBird to be very good for my purposes.)
> >>
> >> A point raised in this thread has been that of data being held in multiple 

> >> locations.  I see that as an important issue given the role of data in
> >> informing EISs development approvals etc.  This isn't to say there
> >> shouldn't be multiple data capture mechanisms but the results should all
> >> end 'somewhere' agreed to be the official repository.
> >>
> >> Martin
> >>
> >> Martin Butterfield
> >> http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/
> >>
> >> On 17 October 2014 07:52, Peter Shute  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes, before one rejects a new listing system perhaps one should consider
> >>> whether it's better than previous ones. Has anyone tried this Konkoit
> >>> database?
> >>>
> >>> I agree with your final point about validation. As far as I know, this
> >>> does distinguish eBird from many others, and it would be hard to beat it. 

> >>>
> >>> My memory of Dave Torr's project, if it's the one I'm thnking of, was
> >>> that it was primarily intended to collate information about birding sites 
- 

> >>> locations, maps, brochures, etc. A good idea, and I don't think it has 
been 

> >>> made fully obsolete by the likes of eBird.

 		 	   		  


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Subject: Re: Yet another listing app!
From: Grahame Rogers <gwrogers AT bigpond.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:09:16 +1000
When Eremaea eBird was launched, there was mention of a specific 
BirdLife Atlas entry form to ensure all the Atlas data was included in a 
list. Currently I use the Other Area input form, but a lot of the 
information required has to be entered in the Comments field - not a 
very satisfactory process. And there is no certainty that the data will 
reach the Atlas as there was with the old Eremaea.
I understand there are plans for a new portal to the Atlas, but eBird is 
here and now, and brilliantly easy to use. It would take very little 
effort to add an Atlas entry form to Eremaea eBird.
If you would use such a form, please let Eremaea and BirdLife Australia 
know:
http://help.ebird.org/customer/portal/emails/new?t=412380 and
andrew.silcocks AT birdlife.org.au
  If there is enough interest we may get a form!

Regards
Grahame Rogers

On 17/10/2014 8:32 AM, Dave Torr wrote:
> My understanding is that Eremaea used to be able to send stuff to the BA
> atlas. Not sure if that happens with eBird?​
>
> On 17 October 2014 09:29, Martin Butterfield  wrote:
>
>> Given the way the message  from Konkoit appeared, I like many others
>> assumed it was spam and thus likely to lead to getting a few things I
>> didn't want as well as those advertised.   Since no-one from Konkoit has
>> seen fit to disabuse this list of that notion, I at least will be staying
>> well away from it.  (I find eBird to be very good for my purposes.)
>>
>> A point raised in this thread has been that of data being held in multiple
>> locations.  I see that as an important issue given the role of data in
>> informing EISs development approvals etc.  This isn't to say there
>> shouldn't be multiple data capture mechanisms but the results should all
>> end 'somewhere' agreed to be the official repository.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> Martin Butterfield
>> http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/
>>
>> On 17 October 2014 07:52, Peter Shute  wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, before one rejects a new listing system perhaps one should consider
>>> whether it's better than previous ones. Has anyone tried this Konkoit
>>> database?
>>>
>>> I agree with your final point about validation. As far as I know, this
>>> does distinguish eBird from many others, and it would be hard to beat it.
>>>
>>> My memory of Dave Torr's project, if it's the one I'm thnking of, was
>>> that it was primarily intended to collate information about birding sites -
>>> locations, maps, brochures, etc. A good idea, and I don't think it has been
>>> made fully obsolete by the likes of eBird.
>>>
>>> Peter Shute
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Birding-Aus
>>>> [mailto:birding-aus-bounces AT birding-aus.org] On Behalf Of Mark Gafney
>>>> Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2014 10:19 PM
>>>> To: Dave Torr
>>>> Cc: birding-aus
>>>> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yet another listing app!
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>> I seem to remember you launched your own listing project some
>>>> time ago. I dont see you pushing it anymore so perhaps you
>>>> took it down and are therefore maybe a bit biased against
>>>> others launching similar projects.
>>>> I seem to remember other projects (I think BirdStack was one)
>>>> which also came and went probably because of the costs
>>>> involved in running projects like this. My point is that
>>>> there are pros and cons to different projects depending on
>>>> what people want from their app but probably the most
>>>> important thing is that the data gets validated somewhere,
>>>> otherwise garbage in--garbage out
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Dave Torr
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Just had a email from Konkoit who have launched yet another listing
>>>>> app - seriously how many does the world need and how
>>>> fragmented will
>>>>> all the data become if everyone uses a different system......
>>>>> 
>>>>>
Birding-Aus mailing list >>>>>
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >>>>>
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>>>>
>>>>> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>
>>>>
Birding-Aus mailing list >>>>
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >>>>
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>>>
>>>> http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org >>>> >>>> >>>
>>>
Birding-Aus mailing list >>>
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >>>
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>>
http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org >>> >>> >> >
>
Birding-Aus mailing list >
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Subject: Re: Yet another listing app!
From: Dave Torr <davidtorr AT gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:32:29 +1100
My understanding is that Eremaea used to be able to send stuff to the BA
atlas. Not sure if that happens with eBird?​

On 17 October 2014 09:29, Martin Butterfield  wrote:

> Given the way the message  from Konkoit appeared, I like many others
> assumed it was spam and thus likely to lead to getting a few things I
> didn't want as well as those advertised.   Since no-one from Konkoit has
> seen fit to disabuse this list of that notion, I at least will be staying
> well away from it.  (I find eBird to be very good for my purposes.)
>
> A point raised in this thread has been that of data being held in multiple
> locations.  I see that as an important issue given the role of data in
> informing EISs development approvals etc.  This isn't to say there
> shouldn't be multiple data capture mechanisms but the results should all
> end 'somewhere' agreed to be the official repository.
>
> Martin
>
> Martin Butterfield
> http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/
>
> On 17 October 2014 07:52, Peter Shute  wrote:
>
>> Yes, before one rejects a new listing system perhaps one should consider
>> whether it's better than previous ones. Has anyone tried this Konkoit
>> database?
>>
>> I agree with your final point about validation. As far as I know, this
>> does distinguish eBird from many others, and it would be hard to beat it.
>>
>> My memory of Dave Torr's project, if it's the one I'm thnking of, was
>> that it was primarily intended to collate information about birding sites -
>> locations, maps, brochures, etc. A good idea, and I don't think it has been
>> made fully obsolete by the likes of eBird.
>>
>> Peter Shute
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Birding-Aus
>> > [mailto:birding-aus-bounces AT birding-aus.org] On Behalf Of Mark Gafney
>> > Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2014 10:19 PM
>> > To: Dave Torr
>> > Cc: birding-aus
>> > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yet another listing app!
>> >
>> > Dave
>> > I seem to remember you launched your own listing project some
>> > time ago. I dont see you pushing it anymore so perhaps you
>> > took it down and are therefore maybe a bit biased against
>> > others launching similar projects.
>> > I seem to remember other projects (I think BirdStack was one)
>> > which also came and went probably because of the costs
>> > involved in running projects like this. My point is that
>> > there are pros and cons to different projects depending on
>> > what people want from their app but probably the most
>> > important thing is that the data gets validated somewhere,
>> > otherwise garbage in--garbage out
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > Mark
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Dave Torr
>> >  wrote:
>> >
>> > > Just had a email from Konkoit who have launched yet another listing
>> > > app - seriously how many does the world need and how
>> > fragmented will
>> > > all the data become if everyone uses a different system......
>> > > 
>> > >
Birding-Aus mailing list >> > >
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >> > >
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >> > >
>> > > http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org >> > > >> > > >> >
>> >
Birding-Aus mailing list >> >
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >> >
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >> >
>> > http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org >> > >> > >>
>>
Birding-Aus mailing list >>
Birding-Aus AT birding-aus.org >>
To change settings or unsubscribe visit: >>
http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org >> >> > >

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Subject: Re: Yet another listing app!
From: Martin Butterfield <martinflab AT gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:29:56 +1100
Given the way the message  from Konkoit appeared, I like many others
assumed it was spam and thus likely to lead to getting a few things I
didn't want as well as those advertised.   Since no-one from Konkoit has
seen fit to disabuse this list of that notion, I at least will be staying
well away from it.  (I find eBird to be very good for my purposes.)

A point raised in this thread has been that of data being held in multiple
locations.  I see that as an important issue given the role of data in
informing EISs development approvals etc.  This isn't to say there
shouldn't be multiple data capture mechanisms but the results should all
end 'somewhere' agreed to be the official repository.

Martin

Martin Butterfield
http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/

On 17 October 2014 07:52, Peter Shute  wrote:

> Yes, before one rejects a new listing system perhaps one should consider
> whether it's better than previous ones. Has anyone tried this Konkoit
> database?
>
> I agree with your final point about validation. As far as I know, this
> does distinguish eBird from many others, and it would be hard to beat it.
>
> My memory of Dave Torr's project, if it's the one I'm thnking of, was that
> it was primarily intended to collate information about birding sites -
> locations, maps, brochures, etc. A good idea, and I don't think it has been
> made fully obsolete by the likes of eBird.
>
> Peter Shute
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Birding-Aus
> > [mailto:birding-aus-bounces AT birding-aus.org] On Behalf Of Mark Gafney
> > Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2014 10:19 PM
> > To: Dave Torr
> > Cc: birding-aus
> > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Yet another listing app!
> >
> > Dave
> > I seem to remember you launched your own listing project some
> > time ago. I dont see you pushing it anymore so perhaps you
> > took it down and are therefore maybe a bit biased against
> > others launching similar projects.
> > I seem to remember other projects (I think BirdStack was one)
> > which also came and went probably because of the costs
> > involved in running projects like this. My point is that
> > there are pros and cons to different projects depending on
> > what people want from their app but probably the most
> > important thing is that the data gets validated somewhere,
> > otherwise garbage in--garbage out
> >
> > Cheers
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Dave Torr
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Just had a email from Konkoit who have launched yet another listing
> > > app - seriously how many does the world need and how
> > fragmented will
> > > all the data become if everyone uses a different system......
> > > 
> > >
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